Review: Nézet-Séguin's Hit-and-Miss (Mostly Miss) Beethoven Cycle
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ก.ย. 2022
- Here we go again--another glib, immature, and (surprisingly) indifferently engineered Beethoven cycle, mostly in "period" style, by a conductor of genuine ability. He actually has ideas. He just hides them well.
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It's a relief, of sorts, when a new LvB cycle is bad because I have enough as it is.
Thank you David! I had my doubts about this cycle just based on the 2 performances of Beethoven symphonies (5th & 6th) I caught on TV during the depths of the pandemic. Was with the Philadelphia Orchestra. I was disappointed overall and your observation about the Pastoral is spot on. In the concert, Beethoven’s stream was transformed into puddle.
And to your point about how and when conductors would and should approach performing a Beethoven cycle and committing to disc I offer these words:
“The Ninth is difficult. Sometimes the chorus is not good. The soloists are seldom good. Sometimes the orchestra is not good. Sometimes I am no good. You know, I still don’t understand the first movement.” The quote from Arturo Toscanini in 1952 after listening to a playback of his FIRST actual recording of the Ninth. Over 50 years of performing and studying the score and at 85 years old finally committing to record.
I think he understood enough.
This contrabassoon stuff is so exciting ! The ninth should be arranged to become a contrabassoon concerto so that we can really hear all the importance of this discovery !
So many new Beethoven symphony cycles. Are these even necessary? Just vanity projects by young hot-shot conductors and their record labels? The thought of a Teodor Currentzis Beethoven cycle on 9 separate CDs is a frightening thought!
I don’t think they’re necessary at all. There are numerous works deserving of attention and the Beethoven symphony cycle isn’t one of them. Dave’s comments at the start are spot on - besides the fact that there’s really nothing new to be said (unless you decide to just do perverse things that are completely counter to the composer’s intentions), they’re made virtually on autopilot which makes them even more pointless.
I suppose these Beethoven cycles are more likely to sell.
hehe - why am I happy ? Yannick Nazgul Say Again's gleeful personality always rubbed me the wrong way. And every time he speaks I need a calculator to keep count of all the clichés.
Now we want a talk about the 10 best contra-bassoon parts :-)
Thanks. I didn't realize it, but I WAS waiting for this.
When Nezet-Seguin, with the Philadelphia Orchestra, tacked on other music -without a break! - to Beethoven symphonies, I washed my hands of Nezet-Seguin.
He, as the greatest part of his living colleagues, is the perfect example of the lack, absence of musical thought.
I have listened some of it to make up my mind. After 5 seconds of the 5th, with all the fermatas taken away, I am ready to give him his well deserved white scarf of irredeemable Chutzpah. The result is dumb beyond belief and, actually, quite hilarious.
I had the same reaction to the opening of the fifth. Just terrible
Who the heck needed his Beethoven symphony cycle? What a waste.
I understand that there are now nearly 200 different Beethoven symphony cycles on disc. When I first started collecting LPs about 60 years ago, there were about 10% of this number at the most. I wonder whether all these cycles have added to our understanding of the symphonies. My opinion is - not very much!
There were already 20 full cycles by the early 60s? I’d guess that the number was fewer. 1962 was the year Karajan recorded his first full cycle.
@@MDK2_Radio His first is the Philharmonia cycle from 1955.
How was that solo piano album he did?
The Beethoven done by Markevich and Schmidt-Isserstedt are more than enough, together with Fricsay's Ninth.
May I add Carl Schuricht?
@@cayrephilippe2416 Of course. But not many more, because then it becomes inflationary...:-)
Edgar Brenninkmeyer: The Schmidt-Isserstedt symphony set, with the piano and violin concertos is very expensive on Decca. You can find the 9th by itself (with it’s great quartet) on EBay. The Chailly, Szell, Bernstein, Furtwangler wartime, Klemperer sets are wonderful, also Haroncourt and Karajan ‘63/‘77 sets are great. There are enough sets to chose from.
@@johnpickford4222 More than enough: Wand, Szell, Blomstedt with Staatskapelle Dresden, the last Jochum with London Symphony, Cluytens with Berliner, Kletzki with Czech Philharmonic, first Barenboim, first Colin Davis, and they are only the firsts thatI came in mind. And, as a single performance, I would mention the Ninth by Munch (the first mouvement is brutal! Magnificent!) and the Eroica by Scherchen (the second one on stereo), 43 minutes of pure excitement, way much better than all HIP performance that came later.
This is yet another music chat that is fortifying the belief that, with some exceptions, our current group of “star” conductors (Nezet-Seguin, Nelsons, Thielemann, Dudamel, etc.) are not creating legendary recordings that will withstand the test of time. Recordings made by the great conductors of the past (and not just by Beethoven) have left us with reference recordings, which you Dave so expertly point out on a continuing basis. Thank you for that btw.
The contrabassoon part reminds me of rattles vpo. Beethoven cycle where he had a similar obsession
Forget the contrabasson part....it's better on sousaphone 😁
There’s absolutely nothing new - except for a 3rd division sonic. The reality is there were Beethoven symphony cycles recorded half a century ago that sounded better and communicated infinitely more
Contrabassoon: The Musical
What has happened to the sound of classical recordings? So many recent ones seem completely anaemic.
Would it be that in the past producers and engineers acknowledged a difference in listening in a concert hall or at home, and accounted for that, while now they try to recreate the sound of the concert hall that doesn't work as well for repeated listening at home (possibly by the limits of recording and playback equipment)?
Is it possible that the best engineers were not available to travel during covid and therefore a subpar team recorded this flawed cycle? The upper strings sound thin (not only from non vibrato in all the wrong places ,did they listen to their earlier Harnoncourt s recording at all) and the basses are simply not there?
Jerry Lewis sings the 9th with contra bassoon!!😛
He was going to be on a loser before he started. Why on earth did he do something different, like his marvellous FLORENCE PRICE recording? There are countless works that need a good recording. This is the same old stuff again.
I think that if I were the contrabassonist of the COE, I might be a bit pissed with this review - after all that hard work!
Thems is da breaks!
I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with the addition of a contrabassoon part (whatever its historical accuracy may or may not be), but it sounds like it simply didn’t work here.
Hi Dave, the Beethoven Symphony Cycle review I'm waiting for is the Savall cycle, not this one. ;-)
You mean this one? th-cam.com/video/PPqcbLeEgUE/w-d-xo.html
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks, I had missed this. I already owned it (Savall) for some time, but felt underwhelmed by it. So while I'm not 'against' period instrument approach, we end up having the same feelings.
@@johanhendrix5907 I'm not against any approach but a dull one.
I wish I watched this review before I wasted four hours making my way through this album to the pastoral
It seems like these days a conductor feels compelled to race through the symphonies at the fastest possible speed. I blame Roger Norrington and the period instrument movement for this, but of course other conductors had been taking faster tempi on record before.
Blame the stupid metronome markings.
@@DavesClassicalGuide And who is the one that made following the metronome markings a requirement for performances? Norrington.
Bad sonics are a trend with Yannick, Mahler 8, Bernstein Mass, now this.
The string playing in this whole cycle is horrid to my ear, but the opening of the 5th is just an embarrassment.
Yannick’s radio broadcasts of his performances with Philly are far superior to this.
So here’s my question: Who from DG decided we needed another crappily underplayed chamber orchestra Beethoven cycle, when PHILLY, his real orchestra, hasn’t made one since Muti in the 80’s?!?!?
That’s who should have recorded this cycle, a orchestra with strings that can actually play this music with the heft and respect that it deserves.
And agreed, the bass in the 9th is a disaster.
So disappointing.
and oddly he's been touring the Eroica with the Philly this summer. God knows why he's with the COE. I was meant to hear it in London but it was one of the Proms cancelled by The News last week :(
@@Jack-dt9nu The Eroica he did last fall when they reopened the hall here in Philly to live audiences (broadcast on radio for those who want to find it) was exciting, well played, and with a big full string section. That’s the thing about this ridiculous cycle that pisses me off so much. Such a damn waste.
@@djquinn4212 I've not listened to this recording yet but I can imagine it's just frustration at the wasted talent. I heard Yannick conduct the Rotterdamers in the Eroica over a decade ago and it's still the finest I've heard it live. What a shame!
To what extent are the conductors partly responsible for the engineering? I seem to remember reading that Toscanini and Walter reviewed and had a voice on the engineering.
Some care, some don't. YNS, evidently, is a "don't."
Love this review , I will avoid it and buy a cluyten directed beethoven with the bpo
Such a shame because his live Beethoven can be great and some of his individually recorded performances (with the Montreal or the Rotterdamers) are pretty good. Dashed off far too quickly, unlike his Rach symphony cycle and Sibelius symphony cycle which are (supposedly) coming out piece by piece. All very strange and a let down.
Why do there have to be so many Beethoven cycles? Every new one that appears on the market joins the morass of however many hundreds of Beethoven cycles currently exist, and I suspect that few of them have anything new to add to the conversation. The time and energy spent on yet another Beethoven cycle would be better spent exploring worthwhile repertoire that has been neglected. It's fine to perform Beethoven in the concert hall because audiences like to hear the music live, but not everything needs to be recorded. The situation with Beethoven cycles has reached such a point of absurdity that I would only welcome a new one that is truly demented. Maybe someone should arrange Beethoven's symphonies for a large ensemble of crumhorns, curtals, and racketts, with a few accordions and bagpipes thrown in for good measure. The Ninth could have death metal vocalists as soloists, accompanied by a choir of excessively autotuned K-pop singers. I would listen to that. I might not enjoy it, but at least it would give full expression to the absurdity of the present day Beethoven situation and would therefore add something valuable to the conversation.
You're right. Take this one, for example. I'd already forgotten about it completely.
I’ve enjoyed Yannick live conducting the Philadelphia Orchestra for years now but have repeatedly been underwhelmed and disappointed with his recordings. Maybe he shouldn’t spread himself so thin conducting so many ensembles and get his act together by spending more time conducting with Philadelphia or some other group that allows his ego the space it needs. He is obviously a talented musician but he has yet to reach his potential.
He does seem to be everywhere and is getting to be another Gergiev with all this over-exposure. When you have that many engagements how on earth are you ever supposed to bring anything new to what you're doing? It must be a drug for them, they don't feel like they are alive unless they are in front of an orchestra, waving their arms about and feeling important.
I call him "Manic Nasal Spraygun."
If you think this is bad, just wait for the Teodor Currentzis version.
Finally! Unecessary and bland. Nearly every important/iconic moment or part of a symphony that's dear to me misfires.