I enjoy all the movements of that symphony. I don't think it's a thing everyone agrees upon at all. That was probably the weakest hot take in the bunch. Also Liszt wrote lots of high quality lyrical piano music. The consolations for one, but also things like mephisto waltz are delightful, I find in him a certain pathos that the only other composer of his generation to posess was Wagner, when he wasn't writing the more purely showy stuff.
@@bbailey7818 I agree with you. That movement is one of the most boring thing I have ever listened to. I couldn't even sleep through it, that's just how bad it is
Yeah, I agree. Perhaps, Berlioz could have trimmed the first three sections a bit but they set up the exciting last two beautifully. David's letting his percussionist's bias show here. For the word "everyone" substitute "every percussionist."
Agree with a lot, but like others not about Liszt. There isn't a composer alive today who could write something like the Faust Symphony, Les Preludes, or the first piano concerto, not to mention a lot of the piano music. Great, underrated and misunderstood.
Les Preludes is to music what the National Enquirer is to journalism.... tacky, tacky, tacky, but somehow you read it and claim that "the maid left it". I got a box of Liszt's tone poems... and could not get through them.
I have, indeed, listened to all 200 Bach Cantatas -- WHILE doing so, a lady from down the hall walked into my office, grabbed the door and SLAMMED IT SHUT as she walked out. I recall that Schoenberg's Piano Concerto was the FIRST WORK that I ever listened to, over and over and OVER and over and over, expecting it to eventually "catch on..." I finally gave up. It was REFRESHING to hear YOU explain that my experience was accurate. I came to the same conclusion. RECENTLY... as more and more incredible pianists have recorded the work, I revisited it. It still doesn't work. Thank you so much for letting me off the hook.
Great recommendation regarding the missing Bach cantatas! LOL! Bach’s Calov Bible was actually discovered in a farmer’s attic in the US and can be viewed at a Lutheran Seminary in St Louis, MO.
Thank God for David Hurwitz! Finally someone to keep me company while I listen to and collect recordings. I love most of your recommendations and this particular talk was entertaining and interesting at the same time. I am a retired musician / computer programmer living in a remote costal town in the west. I need this kind of stimulation! No one I know is even remotely interested in the music I love.
Nah. I'm not nearly the expert Dave is, but I've studied music a bit and actually have listened to all the quartets many times. And Dave is right, and not just about the Grosse Fuge. Which really IS ugly. The last quartets are thorny, unresonant, unsonorous, overly intellectual. There are lovely moments, but as complete works they don't really work. And Beethoven was not alone in not quite living up to the hype in the last works. I love the 17th century composer Schutz but his Opus Ultimum, the Schwannengesang, an interminable setting of a single psalm, is gloomy and uninpsired. I want to love it but just can't. And, sorry, but Haydn's Creation is, well, pointing in the direction no one wanted to take music... it just misses the Zeitgeist and just plain isn't that interesting. Musical opinion is subjective, obviously, but I'm hardly alone in my opinions. Nor is Dave, though I REALLY disagree with him about the missing Bach.
I agree with that. Mozart's first 24 symphonies are simply not worth the time. Ditto the first 13 piano concertos EXCEPT for the Jeunehomme (K.271). And the early operas except for parts of Lucio Silla and Mitridate. And one aria from Re Pastore. As someone once said, Mozart's operas are "Waiting for Idomeneo."
@@loganfruchtman953 not really, only ocasionally. Haydn style is much less melody driven, instead he builds on motives, like Beethoven. There are actually a Lot of difference, but they don't show until you start studyin and playing close attention
This is the funniest little blog I have ever heard. Although I have now cut myself shaving, so many of my unspoken suspicions have been confirmed. Thank you, Dave. Carry on!
Depends on who is playing it. If it is one of these European or Asian quartets, forget about it, or the Emerson quartet,the well oiled machine. You should have seen what groups like the Cleveland quartet or some young groups today do with it. Played w energy it is amazing
I adore your sense of humor added to all the insights! I will only beg to differ about "Liszt is thrash" on essence (or at least personal perception) although that was probably the most effective panning from a critic I have objectively heard 'til now! ;)
Great stuff! I agree with most of your observations, although I'm not willing to dismiss everything Liszt wrote as junk. Yes, a lot of it is glitzy cocktail-piano pyrotechnics (even when not written for the piano), but I find some really affecting and beautiful moments in some of his quieter works, such as several in his "Years of Pilgrimage" collection. And I have listened to all 200 Bach Cantata (mostly from the Edition Bachakademie set over the long process of their gradual release), but there are maybe a dozen at most that I return to regularly. Cheers!
@@williamstivelman6314 Depends on attention span / motivation for sure, especially if one comes in with an opinion. It is then normal to search for justification. I personally might consent to some of his big works being rough or "vulgar" before I agree on them being boring... I wonder what your relation to "modern classical", or minimalistic music might then be. :) There were a number of other Romantic composers whose music comes in one ear and out the other without much impact. With Liszt, at least he will spur some reaction in the listener.
Agree with your comment about returning to about a dozen of Bach’s cantatas. Twice I’ve listened to all of them over the course of a year on the day they were meant to be performed, most recently as a lockdown project. I listened to both Gardiner’s and Suzuki’s versions and came up with a few more than you (about 20), but the standout has to be “Ein feste Burg ist Unser Gott”. Magnificent.
Number 11: Mahler 7 is the 'Cinderella' of the symphonies, the 'most forward-looking' of Mahler symphonies. The last movement 'has a poor structure', 'is 'the most demented C major you'll ever hear', the second Nachtmusik is 'the death of society'. All complete nonsense. The Seventh is instantly compelling, orchestrally ravishing and unceasingly inventive. It's a delight from start to finish. Conductors love it, orchestras love it, audiences love it. Stop overloading the work with stupid associations. Enjoy it for what it is!
I see Mahler's Seventh Symphony as something other than a symphony. I look at some of the truly-forward-looking music of Mozart, his serenades and divertimenti that are his longest non-operatic works, and Mahler's Seventh follows this pattern more than anything else. That's not to disparage it. If it grabs you and doesn't let you go it is just as valid a work as one that is one delight after another.
@@paulbrower3297 I agree wholeheartedly, and would include the G minor Quintet K.516 in that list - with its angry, almost violent Minuet, and that incredible slow introduction to the last movement - coming straight after the long, slow third movement. In the Seventh, Mahler is certainly pushing his materials to the limit: the stacked fourths in the first movement, the opulent orchestration; the echo effects in the first Nachtmusik, the phantasmagoria of the Scherzo, the vertiginous cross-cutting in the last movement. There's always been a trope of the Seventh being the problem child, a box of tricks, an experiment that doesn't hold together. As I said, complete nonsense.
Magnificent! „Use your own judgement“ reminds me of Immanuel Kant: „Habe Mut, dich deines eigenen Verstandes zu bedienen“ (Have the courage to use your own mind). We love your humor David! Kind regards from Berlin, Germany
If I had to choose between living without Mozart or living without Schoenberg, I'd live without Mozart (but there are some compositions of his that I love). Many years ago, while my wife was breastfeeding our first daughter, I had Verklarte Nacht playing. The tension was such that my wife got nervous and so did my daughter. Obviously, Verklarte Nacht is not suitable for breastfeeding, but it's still wonderful.
The Grosse Fuge is at the very top of my Least Liked Pieces in Classical Music. Thank you for the validation. Now about that Bach....I *have* heard all the known Bach Cantatas (Rilling box) and would happily go through them again.
Great stuff. Please do 10 more. Even if I find Michael Tilson Thomas' take on Shostakovich 5 to be completely convincing. For those in need of more Bach cantatas, try those of Bach's only forgotten son, P.D.Q.
Shos. S. 5 is just 'perfect' to me as well. S. 4, well, not so much. BTW, what I love most by Shos. are his incredibly fantastic quartets. All of them!
Mr. Hurwitz, I discovered you recently and I am fascinated by your culture and your ways. I have enjoyed these secrets very much and, in a sense/to an extent, agree with them all. As for Bach's cantatas: Piero Buscaroli, who wrote a gorgeous 1000+ pages biography of JSB, is pretty much convinced that they were never much more than 200. He opines that, with (i) the deadlines he was forced to, and (ii) his seeing his tasks as an utter chore, he just re-arranged previous ones, or cut and pasted here and there. In addition, as he tended not to publish, and to constantly re-write, it is very likely that each cantata we have is, say, the 3rd version of 2 "lost" ones. Not teaching you anything of course...And for me already 200 of Protestant laments (however good) are more than enough.
He also wrote an attractive, competent, early (and tonal) string quartet that I would not be scared to put on a string quartet program. It suggests Brahms or Dvorak.
Absolutely cannot agree with the Mozart assessment. Yes there are similarities from one work to another from time to time but that holds true for all composers. As an fyi Stravinsky said Vivaldi penned the same concerto 100 times (that's the way he heard it). There are some truths to these points but only as a very general point of view from the casual listener.
If I understand the Mozart point, yes, he definately became a "formula" composer and churned things out quickly, it just happens to be the most delightful formula ever formulated. When you are in a Mozart mood, no ONE else will do but nearly ALL of his music will do to satisfy your yearning for that special Mozartean feeling. Its sounds much the same, but that's fine, because it's what I was looking for!
So many times you jog my memory of an incident in my life, so I must apologize as I proceed...many decades ago, a friend of mine, who was not into classical music asked me if I saw the Julia Roberts movie "Sleeping with the Enemy". I told him no, and he explained that there was a scene where the abusive husband said to put on the Berlioz. My friend really liked what he heard. I watched the movie and found, that when Julia pressed the button on the stereo, the 4th movement Dies Irae section played..I reported back to my friend and named the composition but added the caveat that the section he heard was embedded in a 50 minute piece of music and did not appear until about 35 minutes in..he did not feel it was worth buying...had I the means back then, I would have ripped the last two movements for him.
Although I thoroughly love Gurrelieder, I have difficulty listening to most of the rest of Schoenberg's oeuvre. I have never stop trying, however. Ugh, life is too short! Thank you for admitting out loud what every one else has been quietly thinking! Your "You Tube" videos are very entertaining and they help me appreciate music at a deeper level. While watching one of your videos, my wife asked who you were. I said that you were a critic and you offered excellent guidance on curating musical recordings. Noting the depth and breath of my recent acquisitions since following your lectures, my wife laughed and (in humor) quipped that you were not a critic, but one heck of a good CD salesman. I think you can be both, lol! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and opinions!
The Chamber Symphony is also cool, especially the transcription that Webern made for piano, violin, viola, cello, oboe and flute (of which the first ever commercial recording was made by the Gemini Ensemble for Globe Records in the early 1980s, and can be listened to on my TH-cam channel.
What about his neoclassical compositions? They have beautiful jaunty lurches :^) His serenade for 7 instruments and bass voice is delightful. Nonsuch recording is fantastic.
Totally agree with you on #1, Mozart does all sound the same! Not much so on your #8, I love Liszt's B minor sonata...all in all, like what you stated, listen fearlessly and draw our own conclusions.
Liszt did write some good stuff, like the B minor sonata, his piano concertos, his Transcendental Etudes, the Annees de Pelerinage, and his "Dante" and Faust symphonies. The rest is mostly forgettable.
That, Mozart all sounds the same is bs crap, anyone who knows all the facets of Mozart and his experimental works, and diferente masterpieces,. Knows how much creativity and inventive Mozart had. The same bs could also be said of Bach, or Chopin. It's total bs.
I'm dying laughing. Number 8 was hysterical. But I can just picture one of those TV shows where they follow people driving around the country, looking for hidden treasure in people's barns and such. Well, you can guess the rest . . . coming upon more Bach cantatas in a disheveled, cluttered barn in Oklahoma, along with neon coca-cola signs and thin tires mounted on spoke wheels, etc. - along with a million copies of "Mechanic's Life" magazine or something. There, among all that stuff, is a fully scored Bach cantata! Awesome. In regards to Schoenberg, my two favorite 'ugly' works of his are "Jakobsleiter" (Jacob's Ladder) and his gorgeous "Serenade". I like to play them, just to remember how ugly serious music can truly sound. Great stuff.
I don't know Jacob's Ladder, but I do find Serenade appealing, and Pierrot Lunaire has always seemed to me an easy piece to enjoy (if you're not too disturbed by its morbid mood.) Twenty-one pieces, each of them SHORT, each one a unique sound world, very colorfully scored, comical texts... what's not to like? Also, the oddity of the sprechstimme makes the piece so much more approachable than it would have been sung.
Thank you so much for freeing me from Beethoven's Grosse Fuge. I have tried to years to make some peace with the work, to now avail. I tried the original, I tried and orchestrated version, I tried a four-hand piano version (which was admittedly the best), all to no avail. As a listener, I always assume there's just something in the music I'm not getting. Maybe, as you point out, there's nothing there WORTH getting. Thank you!
I love Mozart and what he did was generally so good I don't mind some of it sounds like some more of it. I love Wagner and don't care that you can enter a performance during daytime and come out at night. I love all five movements of the "Symphonie Fantastique" even though it's not my favorite work by Berlioz (the "Romeo and Juliet" symphony is). And I love every bloated minute of Schönberg's "Gurrelieder." But I enjoyed your talk; you have the knack of telling me things I didn't know even if I disagree with you. And you're absolutely right about Bruckner and about the Shostakovich Fifth, which he inscribed as "A Soviet Artist's Response to Just Criticism" - i.e., "The Symphony I Wrote to Keep Myself Out of the Gulag."
Delightful! Forgive me but I love- no adore Beethoven's "Grosse Fuge". I listen, follow the score, and my brain lights up. As for Schoenberg, he never gives his neurosis a rest. His demands to the author, Thomas Mann re "Dr Faustus" reveal the ugly compulsions which found themselves in his 12 tone row. Thank you Mr Hurwitz. You enrich my life.
Regarding the Bach cantatas, I don't share your view. I listened to all of them, I love around 80% and I listened again to a lot cantatas many times. For me, they are a bliss. But as you said, everyone has their own view! By the way, I really like your channel and always enjoy your critics. Thank you, Mr. Hurwitz.
I did hear a string quartet of high school musicians who turned the Grosse Fuge into thrilling music on the "From the Top" show, and made it sound easy. Also, I have noticed that Schoenberg comes off better in concert than on recording. And the complete Bach Cantatas were the first pieces that I collected. I love them all.
Disagree with most of your points but couldn’t agree more with your central one. Use judgement! Not every piece is wonderful not every performance is wonderful and it’s fine to not like some things and have preferences for others. Your honest taste is why I subscribed to you! You actually review recordings rather than re-hash press releases. BTW, your Handel Dixit Dominus recording recommendation... where has that been all my life? Glorious! Thank you!
But Liszt invented the symphonic poems, we might not have all those (admittedly better) ones of Strauss, Sibelius had some good ones, of course Respighi... Would these even be stand alone things without Liszt? I love that form, give Liszt credit for that.
I think the key take away is: don't worry if you agree with Dave or not - judge for yourself. At the same time, accept that informed judgment is likely to be worth listening to - which is why Dave's views are worth considering . In the end, though, it's your ears and no one else's you need to attend to - infallibility doesn't come with this territory. And sometimes hearing something you don't agree with is a good thing!
I just found this video (and article) because Dave cited it in a recent post. I am not sure what I like more, the content or Dave's effort to keep a straight face. I would add more, but I am too busy scouring Oklahoma for penitential-after-work-listening.
I agree with most of your thoughts, but the Berlioz symphony is amazing all the way through. Ever since I saw and heard Bernstein speak about it in the 1960's it has been one of my favorites. To add a couple, I have never understood Mahler nor Bruckner. I have tried and tried to listen to their symphonies, and find them disjointed to the point of confusion...pretty sounds spliced together without any cohesion.
I too deeply disagree with David about Wagner (whom I love as he is, long as he is). But it is so amusing the way he argues each point, I gladly forgive him! 😉
Exceptions: Schoenberg's early string chamber music. Also, there's a wonderful recording of the woodwind quintet by first chair musicians of the Philadelphia Orchestra (c. 1950's?) They saw the links between his early atonality and trends in post-romantic Austrian/German music (those odd, stretched intervals sound more like Richard Strauss). A very interesting take on that piece.
I agree that we need to use our own ears and not rely for our listening choices on the ears of Haggin, Kolodin, David Hall, Harold C. Schonberg, Alex Ross or even you ; thanks and have a great weekend, Sir !
Straight talk. I enjoyed that. Not least your point about Shostakovich´s 5., I found that one particularly refreshing. And symphony Fantastique and Wagner too. Grosse fuge though, hmm, that´s actually my cup of tea. So there we are. Anyhow, your videos are very much appreciated. Thanks a lot from Copenhagen.
Here's an open secret of my own experience. Except for a passing nod via two of his lesser pieces in the centenary year of his birth, the BBC Proms pursues a policy of exclusion of the music of the late British composer George Lloyd (see your review of his 5th Symphony). For nearly thirty years - before and since the composer's passing - I've written a series of letters to the controllers of that event and its music management about including Lloyd's music, not least his Symphonic Mass ("Gramophone" magazine described its importance in 20th century English choral music). I've received a range of "fobbing off" responses and "we'll see what we can do" promises that never materialise. Meanwhile, the Proms readily promotes the "usual suspects" of favoured composers and the reliable old warhorses of classical music, plus the modern PC acceptable range of names,fads and fashions. Lloyd was noted for his stoicism. It was a quality sorely needed, both by him and his admirers.
Thanks for sharing this, I was aware of the BBC's attitude from Lloyd himself, sadly. He also told me that after getting that great review of his Symphonic Mass Gramophone decided to "take him down a peg" (his words to me) and that was that. Grotesque!
@@DavesClassicalGuide I met a well-known music critic for the magazine at a concert here in London featuring a Lloyd composition given by a London-based pro-am orchestra under its excellent founder-conductor Peter Fender. So the admiration was still there in the individual sense. Thanks for the courtesy of your interesting reply.
The nice thing about classical music 'dying' (Norman Lebrecht has been announcing its death for decades now), is that we can now pull the rug out from under 'sacred cows' and enjoy ourselves poking fun at things a bit, all in good fun.
How much classical music do you (or anyone) listen to written after eg Schoenberg’s works? Unless their were any late romantics still writing didn’t it basically die then? There are some occasional exceptions eg I like Michael Torke.
I agree 100% about Mozart. If you know 4 chord changes (and that's being generous) you could shoot out a bunch of 18th century music by just following the rules. Although I love Mozart's operas, everything else sounds the same to me. Thank you for saying what needed to be said.
Which 5 do you agree with? I personally can only agree with the Wagner cuts and Bach Cantate. By the way, so lovely to read the nexus of two of my favorite channels. :) Hoping for move videos from your classical channel!
This video was so much fun. 1. Mozart. I was told I would appreciate him more later in life. I am now decidedly later in life. Neither Mozart nor I have changed. 5. Schoenberg. I love his work, but many of the pieces are just too long. It’s ironic: although he chucked 19th century tonality, Schoenberg, unlike the more radical Webern, did not free himself from the idea that to be good one had to be monumental in length. (Segue now to your excellent “timing problem” video …) You say “difficult”, but I think for me that translates to “tiring”, although not necessarily “tiresome”. 6. Schumann: The orchestral works are just plain boring, even when re-orchestrated. I think I may have fallen asleep while performing some of them. Or maybe just during rehearsals. 7. Bruckner: mostly unlistenable, poor man. But at least it seems some people love him. 8. Liszt is trash. Oh thank God someone had the courage to say it. He’s like a caricature of everything that people who think they should love classical music but know nothing about it think that classical music sounds like. It’s like Bugs Bunny impersonating Stokowski in tails. The music speaks absurd hero-worship (Liszt was, after all, one of the first musical superstars), artificial outdated excitement, a Napoleonic aesthetic only a soi-disant emperor or a starry-eyed imbecile could love (sorry, that is how I feel). I have never heard anything by him that didn’t leave me feeling I had utterly wasted some precious time interval of my remaining and sadly finite life. But fortunately I never feel that way about these fabulous reviews, Dave. Your ever devoted fan.
Appreciate your own judgment, surely this motto can help some people hesitating to take the plunge in classical music. You’re free to make your own choices, yeah! Consider listening to Liszt. He composed very intense and avant garde in his later years. Try his Via Crucis in the version for piano by Reinbert de Leeuw (issued 2012). I also regard the Dante symphony an interesting and unique work.
Secret no. 8 at 3:31 “Liszt is trash.” Good to hear that this bold statement in the video is compensated by some attention for Liszt on the channel and the website as well. I will consider to become a member.
Dear Mr. Hurwitz, Well, I just had to comment on this eventhough it's over a year old. Entertaining, but I have to admit that I disagree with you on many of your opinions in this video, like the Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique. I guess I love the journey as well as the distination (4th movement). Yes, I have listened to all the Bach Cantatas (Harnoncourt/Leonhardt) and loved most of them, and yes, after I came home from school and then from work. Strangely, they along with Bach's Cello Suites (Starker) sustained me during the very dark period in my life before I came out of the closet at 19. And they are still a source of solace for me. The only thing I do agree with you on is that all classical music is not good, there are many bad composers and compositions absolutely true, we just disagree an what they are.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Oh...well, sometimes I do find it hard to tell when people are joking. Also, I just started watching your channel a few weeks ago (maybe 9 videos so far). You have made me laugh before, but this one came as a surprise. I guess I'm still getting to know your style.
I totally agree with your Mozart assessment. I'm also of the school that Vivaldi basically wrote the same concerto hundreds of times. I also echo your sentiments about Symphonie Fantastique. But maybe that's because I'm a trombone player who has to sit out the first three movements, then come in relatively cold in the 4th. It's fun to play once one gets the chance to actually play.
Thank you, I prefer the Rachmaninoff Symphony #2 and the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto with the cuts. The film composer Leonard Rosenman studied with Schoenberg and it definitely shows in his orchestrations. Watch the movie "Pork Chop Hill" or the TV show "Combat". So I'll give him credit for that. His music for "Fantastic Voyage" with Raquel Welch is supposed to use 12-tone compositional techniques.
Hey Dave, I am one person who really would love to listen to more Bach cantatas, the lost ones! I don't know even one single bad piece by this composer.
#2 feels like a case of the emperor's new clothes. So glad someone finally said it. Maybe there are wonderful ideas buried somewhere and maybe it's the rhythmic expression but I feel like I'm being slapped over the head while being asked to listen to great music. Maybe I'll try again because it's so peculiar but it can feel like a prank at least on the first listen.
11. The ‘best’* pieces of music will almost never be heard live in the concert hall and most of your listening discoveries will be happy accidents made at home. * by my personal yardstick. How composers like Beethoven, Tchaikovsky and Brahms survive such over-exposure in the concert hall I’ll never know. There is so much good music that is criminally neglected. If you put it on, we will come and listen! Thank heavens for enterprisingly adventurous labels like Naxos etc.
Obviously, we can't all agree. I've always preferred the Second Movement of the "Fantastique" ("Un Bal")--Agree about Shostakovich 5 Finale--An exhilarating, positive musical statement (I love it)-- I was a huge Wagner addict years ago, but have finally come around to your opinion: his operas are mostly too long (many of us just wait for the moments of transcendent beauty, or rousing orchestral drama)--I like Schoenberg (not every single work, but many of them), he had a great ear for instrumental color and I think one's appreciation does increase with repeated listening, especially of his works for chamber ensemble--Mozart? Yes I kind of agree. The late 18th style wears on me, and relentless deification of the composer becomes tiresome--as for Bruckner, he really did write the same symphony over and over, but nos.7-9 have enough great inspiration to be worth anyone's time (also my personal fave of the earlier ones, no.2)
1. I agree. While listening to your argument, Gould's talk on Mozart becoming a bad composer came to my mind. 2. I heard the fuge for the first time in Copying Beethoven, it was during highschool and I was really touched. 3. I agree. As Rossini said, Wagner did have awful quarters of hours. 4. I adore the introduction of the 1st Mov, the Ball scene always brings tears ti my eyes, 3rd Mov. has great ideas, but it's to long. 5. I agre. I like his theoretical works, but not his music. Berg and Weberm are far more enjoyable. Even Stravinsky wrote better dodecaphonic music. 6. There's something thay turns me on in that messy orchestration. 7. Brucknerian allegro, god damn right! 8. I agree. He was an interesting, but rather bad composer. 9. I remember my first reaction when I heard the symphony. It felt just like that, a tragic apotheosis but not some naïve happy ending 10. It's similar to the first dark secret.
This is a great list of truths that needed speaking that practically nobody till now has dared to voice. I salute your courage, David, as well as your insight.
Thank you for a very entertaining six minutes. About Secret Number One: the eponymous hero of Kingsley Amis's novel Lucky Jim (1954) refers at one point to "some skein of untiring facetiousness by filthy Mozart". I gather this caused a bit of a stir at the time. I think it's spot on.
That reminds me of a passage in the novel “The Time-Traveler’s Wife.” Two of the characters attended a performance of a Wagner opera (I can’t remember which one, but that’s not the point.). The author refers to Wagner as “ an anti-Semitic a**hole whose biggest fan was Hitler.” But she ( the author, can’t remember her name) also referred to Wagnerites as “ the Green Berets of opera fans.” 😊
Thank you for your comment. There are three possible replies to this: (a) there is such a thing as serious trash,' (b) one man's trash is another man's treatsure; and (c) gotta have a sense of humor either way!
Hi David. I just find it an interesting topic, that’s all. Whether I agree or disagree with you, I enjoy reading/hearing your commentaries. Hopefully bringing the classical world to a wider public. ☺️
@@charlescoleman5509 From your mouth to the public's ear! Thank you for taking the time and trouble to contribute (and just between us, I really like the Faust Symphony and the Sonata in B minor, and much else besides, and I don't think they're trash--well, mostly not...). But why does everything we like have to be "great?" We like junk food, B-movies, and all kinds of things that are silly or even bad for us, and we do it with glee, but when it comes to "the classics" it all has to be so damn elevated! Why can't we just like what we like and call it what it is--I love the Grand galop chromatique, but I wouldn't call it an essay in the high style! It's musical popcorn, and that's just fine with me.
David Hurwitz Well said, David. I have a guilty pleasure for an occasional Burger King whopper and its musical equivalent. Tasty, yet cheap. I suppose I should leave it at that. 😄
I don't particularly like Liszt's symphonic poems, but I do respect they were a new genre created by Liszt. But how can you possibly dislike Liszt's piano music? Especially the Annees de pelerinage, Harmonies poetiques et religieuses, the piano sonata, the late pieces, the 2 legends, the 2 ballades, the valse-oubliees, the 2 polonaises, the 2 concertos, etc.? The chamber versions of his late pieces are also amazing. Not to mention the lieder.
Thank you for #5! I got into an argument with my graduate music history professor about Schoenberg, and he promptly gave me a C in the class (while all the average students got As and the worse student got a B). As for Mozart and Bach, I'm ok with Mozart sounding like himself in all his work, and Bach's most boring cantata sounds better than the vast majority of music on this planet.
Very amusing and iconoclastic. Furtively agree about Wagner, but would never admit it publicly. Re Mozart, I've erected the stake, spread the kindling and wood all round, and I'm coming for you!
Hmmm. Schoenberg’s Chamber Symphony #1, especially in its full orchestra arrangement (op. 9b) got better and better with repeated listening as and is now one of my absolute favorite works. There’s an exquisite struggle-of modernism pulsing its way through romanticism and winning the day. Modernism wins but it still sounds quite accessible and triumphant to these ears.
I really am not a fan of Schoenberg's music in general (and frankly don't get his atonal music at all), but I heard the introduction of Gurrrelieder (only the intro) and it's really beautiful, the atmosphere is magical, but it's not atonal like the music he later writes, I think what Dave wanted to say was more about atonal music in general or Schoenberg's atonal music, I never had a problem with Gurrelieder it sounded so good right at the start for me but for atonal music that's pretty different, can't understand it, and I don't think listening more will make me appreciate it as well so I think I get what he meant.
Listening to a Bach cantata for the musical enjoyment alone is like listening to a famous movie with the picture turned off. Unless you understand and (some would say) embrace the message, you're asking a truck missing two wheels to make deliveries.
That is a generic comment applicable to all good music with a text. You might say the same about Tosca. In all such cases, people listen for whatever reason, and no one can say one way is the right way.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I'm not arguing that everyone should listen in the same way and for the same reasons. I'm just saying that those who find movies boring without the picture might enjoy movies more with the picture switched on. If someone likes picture-less movies, I'm all for it if it brings them joy.
I really do agree with everything you say about Schönberg, and I'm a big fan of Webern and Berg so it's not about dodecaphonic music in general, it's just Schönberg. Wait, I actually agree with pretty much anything you say here!
So right about Schoenberg. His tonal music is decent, but if people are really honest, they would rather hear an orchestrated version of "Happy Birthday To You" than his later works. Mozart sounds the same? Yes, I agree. I find the Haydn Symphonies to be far more enjoyable and inventive. Bruckner allegros? Right again. I once heard a commentator say that Bruckner wrote the same symphony, but did it 9 times. I have warmed up to Bruckner over the years, but still get that feeling of sameness from time to time.
I don't dislike Liszt as much as you do. I only think 85% of it is trash. (Unfortuntately, that proportion holds within many of his better pieces.) I think Liszt's probblem also is that his music ends itself to trashy performances more readily than others. Mayhbe that proves your point. Agree with you about Schoenberg. One of my darkest evenings was a performance of Moses und Aron in Holland. "Wo ist Moses? Wo ist der Musik?" Joyful Shostakovich 5th? Hmmm --- love all those jolly minor sixths in the final pages. I just re-heard Andre Previn's Sh5th, with the final pages outdoing even Bernstein's oroginal recordidng in gallopping to the final cadence, and thought it sounded so wrong.
Great stuff! You spoke out, what I think for long a time. Even the point about Wagner (whom I like) is right. Cut down "Tristan" to 2.45 hours, and you get a fine opera. In the "Flying Dutchman" , Wagner knew what he did. Afterwards he became a megalomaniac and wrote too much slow tempi. I just disagree just with your point about Schönberg - well, not totally, but a liitle bit. There aren't many works one can listen with joy (Schönberg detests joy, I would say) and, yes, even the "Transfigured Night" is weak, after all it's much too long for it's substance. But I have an affection for "Pelleas", although I know that the motivic material is far weaker than in works by Zemlinsky or Schreker. Also his transcriptions of Monn and Händel are great, in my opinion (and I like what you tell about them in your video).Moreover, I think that "Erwartung" is a good piece and one can listen to without difficulties, and the "Gurrelieder" are a wonderful piece, too, with exception perhaps of the final chorus. Mahler and Delius did such things better, I guess. But I'm no missionary. Besides: You're right with Mozart. But isn't this the case with all prolific composers? Think on Milhaud or Maxwell Davies. -
I once made a note that most symphonic concerts, motion pictures, sporting events, Olympic opening and closing ceremonies, and theatrical plays last somewhere between ninety minutes to a bit over two hours. Something less than that makes one feel cheated. Something longer than that tests patience even of sophisticated devotees. It's something to do with human nature. Pure music with no obvious distractions is generally on the short end, with Mahler's Third Symphony as the longest work in the symphonic repertory. Anything longer would be savagely cut until it conforms to the shorter limit of ninety or so minutes.
I like your iconoclasm very much, however, with a little reserve for both Liszt and Wagner. Paradoxically enough, Wagner's music on the whole is too short to be thrown away or to get rid of. His oeuvre complète could last 24 hours or a few more. And I do not want to lose even a single measure of it. But your dirty secrets pleased me almost instantly. They were intended to be funny as well, I presume. Waiting for your list of other "Classical Music's Ten Dirtiest Secrets" I remain.
Love this! I have to admit I like some of the works of Liszt! Taking your comment about Bruckner further - I dislike (hate?) his music profusely! The longest I could ever try to listen to any of his symphonies was less than 5 minutes. Maybe there is something wrong with me ...
What you said about Schoenberg here also applies to Webern and Berg too as far as I'm concerned. There is nothing to be learned from the Second Viennese School.
I'm a big fan and don't miss a video of David Hurwitz, but I must admit they all sound the same
Good point.
That's because Dave- like Mozart - has found his niche/ sound. Good job Dave, gotta agree with you on alot of your points.
Truculent!
I am fearless. I love Bach cantatas. All of them. I crave for the other 100 missing. I'm going to Oklahoma as soon as I can.
I'll let them know that you're coming.
Let us know if you find them.
Nobody cares about Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique's first 3 movements? Man, I listen to that piece just for the Waltz!!
You're in the minority.
I enjoy all the movements of that symphony. I don't think it's a thing everyone agrees upon at all. That was probably the weakest hot take in the bunch. Also Liszt wrote lots of high quality lyrical piano music. The consolations for one, but also things like mephisto waltz are delightful, I find in him a certain pathos that the only other composer of his generation to posess was Wagner, when he wasn't writing the more purely showy stuff.
I too like the waltz, pleasant and the first movement is pretty amazing. But that third movement. OMFG, what a bore it is. Just endless.
@@bbailey7818 I agree with you. That movement is one of the most boring thing I have ever listened to. I couldn't even sleep through it, that's just how bad it is
Lol, I don't think anyone got your joke.
I actually do love to hear the complete Symphonie Fantastique. I love "un bal" for exemple and don't mind to have to wait for the grand finale.
Yeah, I agree. Perhaps, Berlioz could have trimmed the first three sections a bit but they set up the exciting last two beautifully. David's letting his percussionist's bias show here. For the word "everyone" substitute "every percussionist."
Agree with a lot, but like others not about Liszt. There isn't a composer alive today who could write something like the Faust Symphony, Les Preludes, or the first piano concerto, not to mention a lot of the piano music. Great, underrated and misunderstood.
The Heroide overture!
Les Preludes is to music what the National Enquirer is to journalism.... tacky, tacky, tacky, but somehow you read it and claim that "the maid left it". I got a box of Liszt's tone poems... and could not get through them.
@@paulbrower4265 I’ll take horrifically bad takes for 500 Alex. Big Oof lol.
Les Preludes is awesome.
@@steven4570 nah it’s tacky
@@ImOriginallyGreen k
I have, indeed, listened to all 200 Bach Cantatas -- WHILE doing so, a lady from down the hall walked into my office, grabbed the door and SLAMMED IT SHUT as she walked out. I recall that Schoenberg's Piano Concerto was the FIRST WORK that I ever listened to, over and over and OVER and over and over, expecting it to eventually "catch on..." I finally gave up. It was REFRESHING to hear YOU explain that my experience was accurate. I came to the same conclusion. RECENTLY... as more and more incredible pianists have recorded the work, I revisited it. It still doesn't work. Thank you so much for letting me off the hook.
No problem, but I love Schoenberg's Piano Concerto.
I'll give it a renewal run -- thanks! (I'll check out your reviews of good performances first)@@DavesClassicalGuide
"Schoenberg was a difficult, truculent kind of guy who wrote difficult, truculent music" . Ha - this is great !
The only piece by Schoenberg I like, is “ Verklaerte Nacht.” Someone ( I can’t remember who) called it “ Wagner with cobwebs.”
Oh, and there are the Gurrelieder. Can't help it, I love them
@@valerietaylor9615
I like the chamber symphonies, they're so light!
Your parting message is why I love your channel. Thank you!
Great recommendation regarding the missing Bach cantatas! LOL! Bach’s Calov Bible was actually discovered in a farmer’s attic in the US and can be viewed at a Lutheran Seminary in St Louis, MO.
I knew it!
Should we organize something?
Does this have the missing cantatas or just other stuff
Thank God for David Hurwitz! Finally someone to keep me company while I listen to and collect recordings. I love most of your recommendations and this particular talk was entertaining and interesting at the same time. I am a retired musician / computer programmer living in a remote costal town in the west. I need this kind of stimulation! No one I know is even remotely interested in the music I love.
Glad you enjoy it!
AMEN
The Große Fuge is dissonant. It's not ugly.
Nah. I'm not nearly the expert Dave is, but I've studied music a bit and actually have listened to all the quartets many times. And Dave is right, and not just about the Grosse Fuge. Which really IS ugly. The last quartets are thorny, unresonant, unsonorous, overly intellectual. There are lovely moments, but as complete works they don't really work. And Beethoven was not alone in not quite living up to the hype in the last works. I love the 17th century composer Schutz but his Opus Ultimum, the Schwannengesang, an interminable setting of a single psalm, is gloomy and uninpsired. I want to love it but just can't. And, sorry, but Haydn's Creation is, well, pointing in the direction no one wanted to take music... it just misses the Zeitgeist and just plain isn't that interesting. Musical opinion is subjective, obviously, but I'm hardly alone in my opinions. Nor is Dave, though I REALLY disagree with him about the missing Bach.
@@oldionus Well, I disagree. I find it neither ugly not thorny, unresonant or any of your other gripes.
Even as a Mozart fanboy I have to agree. Good luck staying awake if you decide to listen through his early symphonies.
I agree with that. Mozart's first 24 symphonies are simply not worth the time. Ditto the first 13 piano concertos EXCEPT for the Jeunehomme (K.271). And the early operas except for parts of Lucio Silla and Mitridate. And one aria from Re Pastore. As someone once said, Mozart's operas are "Waiting for Idomeneo."
Mozart and Haydn sound exactly the same
@@loganfruchtman953 not really, only ocasionally.
Haydn style is much less melody driven, instead he builds on motives, like Beethoven.
There are actually a Lot of difference, but they don't show until you start studyin and playing close attention
@@loganfruchtman953Yeah- ah NO!
@@loganfruchtman953are you crazy? Mozart is way more sexy, flirtatious and sensual.
This is the funniest little blog I have ever heard. Although I have now cut myself shaving, so many of my unspoken suspicions have been confirmed. Thank you, Dave. Carry on!
RE: LVB Grosse Fugue: Just because something is ugly doesn't mean it can't be beautiful.
Duh!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Well said!
Depends on who is playing it. If it is one of these European or Asian quartets, forget about it, or the Emerson quartet,the well oiled machine. You should have seen what groups like the Cleveland quartet or some young groups today do with it. Played w energy it is amazing
You made me smile,you made me laugh.Youre such a tonic Mr Hurwitz.
Thank you!
I adore your sense of humor added to all the insights! I will only beg to differ about "Liszt is thrash" on essence (or at least personal perception) although that was probably the most effective panning from a critic I have objectively heard 'til now! ;)
Liszt may be trash, but it’s fun trash.
You are very refreshing and may I be so bold as to say a truth teller. VERY Rare in this business! Cheers, to a new year!
Great stuff! I agree with most of your observations, although I'm not willing to dismiss everything Liszt wrote as junk. Yes, a lot of it is glitzy cocktail-piano pyrotechnics (even when not written for the piano), but I find some really affecting and beautiful moments in some of his quieter works, such as several in his "Years of Pilgrimage" collection. And I have listened to all 200 Bach Cantata (mostly from the Edition Bachakademie set over the long process of their gradual release), but there are maybe a dozen at most that I return to regularly. Cheers!
Of course. I like Liszt, personally, but then, I like trash!
@@williamstivelman6314 Depends on attention span / motivation for sure, especially if one comes in with an opinion. It is then normal to search for justification. I personally might consent to some of his big works being rough or "vulgar" before I agree on them being boring... I wonder what your relation to "modern classical", or minimalistic music might then be. :)
There were a number of other Romantic composers whose music comes in one ear and out the other without much impact. With Liszt, at least he will spur some reaction in the listener.
Agree with your comment about returning to about a dozen of Bach’s cantatas. Twice I’ve listened to all of them over the course of a year on the day they were meant to be performed, most recently as a lockdown project. I listened to both Gardiner’s and Suzuki’s versions and came up with a few more than you (about 20), but the standout has to be “Ein feste Burg ist Unser Gott”. Magnificent.
I Know this is a really old comment, but could you possibly list the 12 cantatas you like? :)
Number 11: Mahler 7 is the 'Cinderella' of the symphonies, the 'most forward-looking' of Mahler symphonies. The last movement 'has a poor structure', 'is 'the most demented C major you'll ever hear', the second Nachtmusik is 'the death of society'. All complete nonsense. The Seventh is instantly compelling, orchestrally ravishing and unceasingly inventive. It's a delight from start to finish. Conductors love it, orchestras love it, audiences love it. Stop overloading the work with stupid associations. Enjoy it for what it is!
I see Mahler's Seventh Symphony as something other than a symphony. I look at some of the truly-forward-looking music of Mozart, his serenades and divertimenti that are his longest non-operatic works, and Mahler's Seventh follows this pattern more than anything else. That's not to disparage it. If it grabs you and doesn't let you go it is just as valid a work as one that is one delight after another.
@@paulbrower3297 I agree wholeheartedly, and would include the G minor Quintet K.516 in that list - with its angry, almost violent Minuet, and that incredible slow introduction to the last movement - coming straight after the long, slow third movement. In the Seventh, Mahler is certainly pushing his materials to the limit: the stacked fourths in the first movement, the opulent orchestration; the echo effects in the first Nachtmusik, the phantasmagoria of the Scherzo, the vertiginous cross-cutting in the last movement. There's always been a trope of the Seventh being the problem child, a box of tricks, an experiment that doesn't hold together. As I said, complete nonsense.
I don't enjoy it
Magnificent! „Use your own judgement“ reminds me of Immanuel Kant: „Habe Mut, dich deines eigenen Verstandes zu bedienen“ (Have the courage to use your own mind). We love your humor David! Kind regards from Berlin, Germany
If I had to choose between living without Mozart or living without Schoenberg, I'd live without Mozart (but there are some compositions of his that I love). Many years ago, while my wife was breastfeeding our first daughter, I had Verklarte Nacht playing. The tension was such that my wife got nervous and so did my daughter. Obviously, Verklarte Nacht is not suitable for breastfeeding, but it's still wonderful.
The Grosse Fuge is at the very top of my Least Liked Pieces in Classical Music. Thank you for the validation. Now about that Bach....I *have* heard all the known Bach Cantatas (Rilling box) and would happily go through them again.
Great stuff. Please do 10 more. Even if I find Michael Tilson Thomas' take on Shostakovich 5 to be completely convincing. For those in need of more Bach cantatas, try those of Bach's only forgotten son, P.D.Q.
Shos. S. 5 is just 'perfect' to me as well. S. 4, well, not so much. BTW, what I love most by Shos. are his incredibly fantastic quartets. All of them!
@sjambler
P.D.Q. Bach : History’s most justifiably neglected composer. 😊
Mr. Hurwitz, I discovered you recently and I am fascinated by your culture and your ways. I have enjoyed these secrets very much and, in a sense/to an extent, agree with them all. As for Bach's cantatas: Piero Buscaroli, who wrote a gorgeous 1000+ pages biography of JSB, is pretty much convinced that they were never much more than 200. He opines that, with (i) the deadlines he was forced to, and (ii) his seeing his tasks as an utter chore, he just re-arranged previous ones, or cut and pasted here and there. In addition, as he tended not to publish, and to constantly re-write, it is very likely that each cantata we have is, say, the 3rd version of 2 "lost" ones. Not teaching you anything of course...And for me already 200 of Protestant laments (however good) are more than enough.
In principle I agree, though I dearly love Schoenberg's Verklaerte Nacht "Transfigured Night" (both the sextet and orchestral versions).
Yeah, I enjoy his tonal stuff as well. Not saying he is wrong, but I do really like some of it lol
Try the Music and Arts CD of Mitropoulos conducting Verklaerte Nacht and (Schonberg's) Pelleas and Melisande.
He also wrote an attractive, competent, early (and tonal) string quartet that I would not be scared to put on a string quartet program. It suggests Brahms or Dvorak.
“ Verklaerte Nacht” is the only Schoenberg piece I like.
Most amusing, esp. your comments on Bruckner, Schoenberg and Bach...)...please, more editions of dirty secrets!
Thank you--let's let this one sink in and we'll see. Feel free to share the joy in the meantime! Dave
Absolutely cannot agree with the Mozart assessment. Yes there are similarities from one work to another from time to time but that holds true for all composers. As an fyi Stravinsky said Vivaldi penned the same concerto 100 times (that's the way he heard it). There are some truths to these points but only as a very general point of view from the casual listener.
If I understand the Mozart point, yes, he definately became a "formula" composer and churned things out quickly, it just happens to be the most delightful formula ever formulated. When you are in a Mozart mood, no ONE else will do but nearly ALL of his music will do to satisfy your yearning for that special Mozartean feeling. Its sounds much the same, but that's fine, because it's what I was looking for!
So many times you jog my memory of an incident in my life, so I must apologize as I proceed...many decades ago, a friend of mine, who was not into classical music asked me if I saw the Julia Roberts movie "Sleeping with the Enemy". I told him no, and he explained that there was a scene where the abusive husband said to put on the Berlioz. My friend really liked what he heard. I watched the movie and found, that when Julia pressed the button on the stereo, the 4th movement Dies Irae section played..I reported back to my friend and named the composition but added the caveat that the section he heard was embedded in a 50 minute piece of music and did not appear until about 35 minutes in..he did not feel it was worth buying...had I the means back then, I would have ripped the last two movements for him.
It's the Fifth movement, FYI. Great story thought.
Although I thoroughly love Gurrelieder, I have difficulty listening to most of the rest of Schoenberg's oeuvre. I have never stop trying, however. Ugh, life is too short! Thank you for admitting out loud what every one else has been quietly thinking! Your "You Tube" videos are very entertaining and they help me appreciate music at a deeper level. While watching one of your videos, my wife asked who you were. I said that you were a critic and you offered excellent guidance on curating musical recordings. Noting the depth and breath of my recent acquisitions since following your lectures, my wife laughed and (in humor) quipped that you were not a critic, but one heck of a good CD salesman. I think you can be both, lol! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and opinions!
The Chamber Symphony is also cool, especially the transcription that Webern made for piano, violin, viola, cello, oboe and flute (of which the first ever commercial recording was made by the Gemini Ensemble for Globe Records in the early 1980s, and can be listened to on my TH-cam channel.
What about his neoclassical compositions? They have beautiful jaunty lurches :^) His serenade for 7 instruments and bass voice is delightful. Nonsuch recording is fantastic.
Would love to see an episode on your “guilty pleasures,” works that are almost universally derided, but which you enjoy.
I'll think about that.
Rutter's Beatles Concerto
@@jbondy6395 I don't know that. How about the concerto for orchestra and rock band by Deep Purple?
Isn't that 'Ruttles'?@@jbondy6395
Tchaicovsky’s “Marche Slave”. The critics love to pan it, but I think it’s better than the “1812 Overture”.
I loved this! It put a huge smile on my face - good advice too. Thank you!
You are so welcome!
Totally agree with you on #1, Mozart does all sound the same! Not much so on your #8, I love Liszt's B minor sonata...all in all, like what you stated, listen fearlessly and draw our own conclusions.
Liszt did write some good stuff, like the B minor sonata, his piano concertos, his Transcendental Etudes, the Annees de Pelerinage, and his "Dante" and Faust symphonies. The rest is mostly forgettable.
That, Mozart all sounds the same is bs crap, anyone who knows all the facets of Mozart and his experimental works, and diferente masterpieces,. Knows how much creativity and inventive Mozart had.
The same bs could also be said of Bach, or Chopin. It's total bs.
I'm dying laughing. Number 8 was hysterical. But I can just picture one of those TV shows where they follow people driving around the country, looking for hidden treasure in people's barns and such. Well, you can guess the rest . . . coming upon more Bach cantatas in a disheveled, cluttered barn in Oklahoma, along with neon coca-cola signs and thin tires mounted on spoke wheels, etc. - along with a million copies of "Mechanic's Life" magazine or something. There, among all that stuff, is a fully scored Bach cantata! Awesome. In regards to Schoenberg, my two favorite 'ugly' works of his are "Jakobsleiter" (Jacob's Ladder) and his gorgeous "Serenade". I like to play them, just to remember how ugly serious music can truly sound. Great stuff.
I don't know Jacob's Ladder, but I do find Serenade appealing, and Pierrot Lunaire has always seemed to me an easy piece to enjoy (if you're not too disturbed by its morbid mood.) Twenty-one pieces, each of them SHORT, each one a unique sound world, very colorfully scored, comical texts... what's not to like? Also, the oddity of the sprechstimme makes the piece so much more approachable than it would have been sung.
The only Schoenberg piece I like is “Verklaerte Nacht.” Someone once referred to it as “Wagner with cobwebs.”
Thank you so much for freeing me from Beethoven's Grosse Fuge. I have tried to years to make some peace with the work, to now avail. I tried the original, I tried and orchestrated version, I tried a four-hand piano version (which was admittedly the best), all to no avail. As a listener, I always assume there's just something in the music I'm not getting. Maybe, as you point out, there's nothing there WORTH getting. Thank you!
Wonderful! Agree with everything apart from the comment on Liszt: he was truly a genius (even though he wrote the Dante sonata).
I love Mozart and what he did was generally so good I don't mind some of it sounds like some more of it. I love Wagner and don't care that you can enter a performance during daytime and come out at night. I love all five movements of the "Symphonie Fantastique" even though it's not my favorite work by Berlioz (the "Romeo and Juliet" symphony is). And I love every bloated minute of Schönberg's "Gurrelieder." But I enjoyed your talk; you have the knack of telling me things I didn't know even if I disagree with you. And you're absolutely right about Bruckner and about the Shostakovich Fifth, which he inscribed as "A Soviet Artist's Response to Just Criticism" - i.e., "The Symphony I Wrote to Keep Myself Out of the Gulag."
Delightful! Forgive me but I love- no adore Beethoven's "Grosse Fuge". I listen, follow the score, and my brain lights up. As for Schoenberg, he never gives his neurosis a rest. His demands to the author, Thomas Mann re "Dr Faustus" reveal the ugly compulsions which found themselves in his 12 tone row. Thank you Mr Hurwitz. You enrich my life.
Regarding the Bach cantatas, I don't share your view. I listened to all of them, I love around 80% and I listened again to a lot cantatas many times. For me, they are a bliss.
But as you said, everyone has their own view! By the way, I really like your channel and always enjoy your critics. Thank you, Mr. Hurwitz.
I did hear a string quartet of high school musicians who turned the Grosse Fuge into thrilling music on the "From the Top" show, and made it sound easy.
Also, I have noticed that Schoenberg comes off better in concert than on recording.
And the complete Bach Cantatas were the first pieces that I collected. I love them all.
Disagree with most of your points but couldn’t agree more with your central one. Use judgement! Not every piece is wonderful not every performance is wonderful and it’s fine to not like some things and have preferences for others. Your honest taste is why I subscribed to you! You actually review recordings rather than re-hash press releases. BTW, your Handel Dixit Dominus recording recommendation... where has that been all my life? Glorious! Thank you!
So glad you enjoyed the Handel! Such a great record and amazing music.
But Liszt invented the symphonic poems, we might not have all those (admittedly better) ones of Strauss, Sibelius had some good ones, of course Respighi... Would these even be stand alone things without Liszt? I love that form, give Liszt credit for that.
I think the key take away is: don't worry if you agree with Dave or not - judge for yourself. At the same time, accept that informed judgment is likely to be worth listening to - which is why Dave's views are worth considering . In the end, though, it's your ears and no one else's you need to attend to - infallibility doesn't come with this territory. And sometimes hearing something you don't agree with is a good thing!
I just found this video (and article) because Dave cited it in a recent post. I am not sure what I like more, the content or Dave's effort to keep a straight face. I would add more, but I am too busy scouring Oklahoma for penitential-after-work-listening.
I agree with most of your thoughts, but the Berlioz symphony is amazing all the way through. Ever since I saw and heard Bernstein speak about it in the 1960's it has been one of my favorites. To add a couple, I have never understood Mahler nor Bruckner. I have tried and tried to listen to their symphonies, and find them disjointed to the point of confusion...pretty sounds spliced together without any cohesion.
That was absolutely ruthless -- I loved it!
Love it! I only dissent on Wagner. Everything else is spot on! (Especially Bach cantatas!)
I too deeply disagree with David about Wagner (whom I love as he is, long as he is). But it is so amusing the way he argues each point, I gladly forgive him! 😉
Love it! Thank you David, and greetings from The Netherlands!
I'd love to see a remade version of this video that goes more into depth into every "secret", 5 minutes was way too little time for you David.
The whole point of this one was knowing when to quit.
Exceptions: Schoenberg's early string chamber music. Also, there's a wonderful recording of the woodwind quintet by first chair musicians of the Philadelphia Orchestra (c. 1950's?) They saw the links between his early atonality and trends in post-romantic Austrian/German music (those odd, stretched intervals sound more like Richard Strauss). A very interesting take on that piece.
I read that Brahms referred to Bruckner's symphonies as "symphonic boa constrictors."
I TOTALLY adore those boas!!! 😁❤
In the words of Harold C. Schoenberg, “ Brahms had a fearsomely sarcastic tongue.”
I agree that we need to use our own ears and not rely for our listening choices on the ears of Haggin, Kolodin, David Hall, Harold C. Schonberg, Alex Ross or even you ; thanks and have a great weekend, Sir !
Straight talk. I enjoyed that. Not least your point about Shostakovich´s 5., I found that one particularly refreshing. And symphony Fantastique and Wagner too. Grosse fuge though, hmm, that´s actually my cup of tea. So there we are. Anyhow, your videos are very much appreciated. Thanks a lot from Copenhagen.
Brutally honest & quite funny! Keep provoking! :)
Thank you. I will do my best. Dave
@@alaalfa8839 No, it's not. He was very special.
Listen to Wagner operas, one act weekly.
For sure, you "ll find hidden treasures.
Each act is a symphony.
Here's an open secret of my own experience. Except for a passing nod via two of his lesser pieces in the centenary year of his birth, the BBC Proms pursues a policy of exclusion of the
music of the late British composer George Lloyd (see your review of his 5th Symphony).
For nearly thirty years - before and since the composer's passing - I've written a series of
letters to the controllers of that event and its music management about including Lloyd's
music, not least his Symphonic Mass ("Gramophone" magazine described its importance
in 20th century English choral music). I've received a range of "fobbing off" responses and
"we'll see what we can do" promises that never materialise. Meanwhile, the Proms readily
promotes the "usual suspects" of favoured composers and the reliable old warhorses of
classical music, plus the modern PC acceptable range of names,fads and fashions. Lloyd
was noted for his stoicism. It was a quality sorely needed, both by him and his admirers.
Thanks for sharing this, I was aware of the BBC's attitude from Lloyd himself, sadly. He also told me that after getting that great review of his Symphonic Mass Gramophone decided to "take him down a peg" (his words to me) and that was that. Grotesque!
@@DavesClassicalGuide I met a well-known music
critic for the magazine at a concert here in
London featuring a Lloyd composition given
by a London-based pro-am orchestra under its excellent founder-conductor Peter
Fender. So the admiration was still there in
the individual sense. Thanks for the courtesy of your interesting reply.
The nice thing about classical music 'dying' (Norman Lebrecht has been announcing its death for decades now), is that we can now pull the rug out from under 'sacred cows' and enjoy ourselves poking fun at things a bit, all in good fun.
How much classical music do you (or anyone) listen to written after eg Schoenberg’s works? Unless their were any late romantics still writing didn’t it basically die then? There are some occasional exceptions eg I like Michael Torke.
I agree 100% about Mozart. If you know 4 chord changes (and that's being generous) you could shoot out a bunch of 18th century music by just following the rules. Although I love Mozart's operas, everything else sounds the same to me. Thank you for saying what needed to be said.
I disapprove of about 5 of the points, but approve of all of them stylistically! Great work.
Which 5 do you agree with? I personally can only agree with the Wagner cuts and Bach Cantate.
By the way, so lovely to read the nexus of two of my favorite channels. :) Hoping for move videos from your classical channel!
Dirty Classical Secret No. 11: Bach had another son named Carl Philipp Adam (C.P.A.) Bach who bucked the family tradition and became an accountant.
Yes, I heard he was keeping the books for his rich brother P.D.Q.
Now I’ve heard everything! 😂
This video was so much fun.
1. Mozart. I was told I would appreciate him more later in life. I am now decidedly later in life. Neither Mozart nor I have changed.
5. Schoenberg. I love his work, but many of the pieces are just too long. It’s ironic: although he chucked 19th century tonality, Schoenberg, unlike the more radical Webern, did not free himself from the idea that to be good one had to be monumental in length. (Segue now to your excellent “timing problem” video …) You say “difficult”, but I think for me that translates to “tiring”, although not necessarily “tiresome”.
6. Schumann: The orchestral works are just plain boring, even when re-orchestrated. I think I may have fallen asleep while performing some of them. Or maybe just during rehearsals.
7. Bruckner: mostly unlistenable, poor man. But at least it seems some people love him.
8. Liszt is trash. Oh thank God someone had the courage to say it. He’s like a caricature of everything that people who think they should love classical music but know nothing about it think that classical music sounds like. It’s like Bugs Bunny impersonating Stokowski in tails. The music speaks absurd hero-worship (Liszt was, after all, one of the first musical superstars), artificial outdated excitement, a Napoleonic aesthetic only a soi-disant emperor or a starry-eyed imbecile could love (sorry, that is how I feel). I have never heard anything by him that didn’t leave me feeling I had utterly wasted some precious time interval of my remaining and sadly finite life.
But fortunately I never feel that way about these fabulous reviews, Dave. Your ever devoted fan.
Appreciate your own judgment, surely this motto can help some people hesitating to take the plunge in classical music. You’re free to make your own choices, yeah!
Consider listening to Liszt.
He composed very intense and avant garde in his later years. Try his Via Crucis in the version for piano by Reinbert de Leeuw (issued 2012). I also regard the Dante symphony an interesting and unique work.
You don't know me at all, do you? Check out the Liszt playlist on this very channel, or the reviews at ClassicsToday.com.
Secret no. 8 at 3:31 “Liszt is trash.” Good to hear that this bold statement in the video is compensated by some attention for Liszt on the channel and the website as well. I will consider to become a member.
@@JK-rt2jj Only if you keep a sense of humor. Please.
Thanks for speaking the truth! Although, like the previous person, I do like Schoenberg's Verklaerte Nacht "Transfigured Night".
There seems to be no acknowledgement that not all Schonberg is serialist....
Dear Mr. Hurwitz, Well, I just had to comment on this eventhough it's over a year old. Entertaining, but I have to admit that I disagree with you on many of your opinions in this video, like the Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique. I guess I love the journey as well as the distination (4th movement). Yes, I have listened to all the Bach Cantatas (Harnoncourt/Leonhardt) and loved most of them, and yes, after I came home from school and then from work. Strangely, they along with Bach's Cello Suites (Starker) sustained me during the very dark period in my life before I came out of the closet at 19. And they are still a source of solace for me. The only thing I do agree with you on is that all classical music is not good, there are many bad composers and compositions absolutely true, we just disagree an what they are.
Have you no sense of humor? Why on earth would you think that I actually believe any of these "secrets?" I was just having a little fun. That's all.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Oh...well, sometimes I do find it hard to tell when people are joking. Also, I just started watching your channel a few weeks ago (maybe 9 videos so far). You have made me laugh before, but this one came as a surprise. I guess I'm still getting to know your style.
@@Jeff-wb3hh Understood, Be prepare to laugh a lot (I hope!). Just relax and enjoy.
I totally agree with your Mozart assessment. I'm also of the school that Vivaldi basically wrote the same concerto hundreds of times. I also echo your sentiments about Symphonie Fantastique. But maybe that's because I'm a trombone player who has to sit out the first three movements, then come in relatively cold in the 4th. It's fun to play once one gets the chance to actually play.
Thank you, I prefer the Rachmaninoff Symphony #2 and the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto with the cuts. The film composer Leonard Rosenman studied with Schoenberg and it definitely shows in his orchestrations. Watch the movie "Pork Chop Hill" or the TV show "Combat". So I'll give him credit for that. His music for "Fantastic Voyage" with Raquel Welch is supposed to use 12-tone compositional techniques.
Enjoyed this. Put a smile on my face.
So the Years of Pilgrimage is trash????
Hey Dave, I am one person who really would love to listen to more Bach cantatas, the lost ones! I don't know even one single bad piece by this composer.
Fair enough, but you can still not like it. "Greatness" is irrelevant.
One of the most delightful videos to warch! Couldn't agree more on all 10 points!! Especially mozart, berlioz and Bruckner!! :) 😁
#2 feels like a case of the emperor's new clothes. So glad someone finally said it. Maybe there are wonderful ideas buried somewhere and maybe it's the rhythmic expression but I feel like I'm being slapped over the head while being asked to listen to great music. Maybe I'll try again because it's so peculiar but it can feel like a prank at least on the first listen.
11. The ‘best’* pieces of music will almost never be heard live in the concert hall and most of your listening discoveries will be happy accidents made at home.
* by my personal yardstick.
How composers like Beethoven, Tchaikovsky and Brahms survive such over-exposure in the concert hall I’ll never know. There is so much good music that is criminally neglected. If you put it on, we will come and listen! Thank heavens for enterprisingly adventurous labels like Naxos etc.
Obviously, we can't all agree. I've always preferred the Second Movement of the "Fantastique" ("Un Bal")--Agree about Shostakovich 5 Finale--An exhilarating, positive musical statement (I love it)-- I was a huge Wagner addict years ago, but have finally come around to your opinion: his operas are mostly too long (many of us just wait for the moments of transcendent beauty, or rousing orchestral drama)--I like Schoenberg (not every single work, but many of them), he had a great ear for instrumental color and I think one's appreciation does increase with repeated listening, especially of his works for chamber ensemble--Mozart? Yes I kind of agree. The late 18th style wears on me, and relentless deification of the composer becomes tiresome--as for Bruckner, he really did write the same symphony over and over, but nos.7-9 have enough great inspiration to be worth anyone's time (also my personal fave of the earlier ones, no.2)
1. I agree. While listening to your argument, Gould's talk on Mozart becoming a bad composer came to my mind.
2. I heard the fuge for the first time in Copying Beethoven, it was during highschool and I was really touched.
3. I agree. As Rossini said, Wagner did have awful quarters of hours.
4. I adore the introduction of the 1st Mov, the Ball scene always brings tears ti my eyes, 3rd Mov. has great ideas, but it's to long.
5. I agre. I like his theoretical works, but not his music. Berg and Weberm are far more enjoyable. Even Stravinsky wrote better dodecaphonic music.
6. There's something thay turns me on in that messy orchestration.
7. Brucknerian allegro, god damn right! 8. I agree. He was an interesting, but rather bad composer.
9. I remember my first reaction when I heard the symphony. It felt just like that, a tragic apotheosis but not some naïve happy ending
10. It's similar to the first dark secret.
Provocative and entertaining as always, BUT, I love Schoenberg's Moses und Aron. Call me crazy.
I love it too.
This is a great list of truths that needed speaking that practically nobody till now has dared to voice. I salute your courage, David, as well as your insight.
Yes, Bruckner and Allegro molto vivace is a contradiction in terms :D
Thank you for a very entertaining six minutes. About Secret Number One: the eponymous hero of Kingsley Amis's novel Lucky Jim (1954) refers at one point to "some skein of untiring facetiousness by filthy Mozart". I gather this caused a bit of a stir at the time. I think it's spot on.
That reminds me of a passage in the novel “The Time-Traveler’s Wife.” Two of the characters attended a performance of a Wagner opera (I can’t remember which one, but that’s not the point.). The author refers to Wagner as “ an anti-Semitic a**hole whose biggest fan was Hitler.” But she ( the author, can’t remember her name) also referred to Wagnerites as “ the Green Berets of opera fans.” 😊
Liszt: Sonata in B minor and Faust Symphony....junk!? I don’t think so. Ahem........
Thank you for your comment. There are three possible replies to this: (a) there is such a thing as serious trash,' (b) one man's trash is another man's treatsure; and (c) gotta have a sense of humor either way!
Hi David. I just find it an interesting topic, that’s all. Whether I agree or disagree with you, I enjoy reading/hearing your commentaries. Hopefully bringing the classical world to a wider public. ☺️
@@charlescoleman5509 From your mouth to the public's ear! Thank you for taking the time and trouble to contribute (and just between us, I really like the Faust Symphony and the Sonata in B minor, and much else besides, and I don't think they're trash--well, mostly not...). But why does everything we like have to be "great?" We like junk food, B-movies, and all kinds of things that are silly or even bad for us, and we do it with glee, but when it comes to "the classics" it all has to be so damn elevated! Why can't we just like what we like and call it what it is--I love the Grand galop chromatique, but I wouldn't call it an essay in the high style! It's musical popcorn, and that's just fine with me.
David Hurwitz Well said, David. I have a guilty pleasure for an occasional Burger King whopper and its musical equivalent. Tasty, yet cheap. I suppose I should leave it at that. 😄
@@davecook8378 there's no accounting for taste.
I don't particularly like Liszt's symphonic poems, but I do respect they were a new genre created by Liszt. But how can you possibly dislike Liszt's piano music? Especially the Annees de pelerinage, Harmonies poetiques et religieuses, the piano sonata, the late pieces, the 2 legends, the 2 ballades, the valse-oubliees, the 2 polonaises, the 2 concertos, etc.? The chamber versions of his late pieces are also amazing. Not to mention the lieder.
You really need to work on your sense of humor.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks, David! You had me worried there for a moment!
Thank you for #5! I got into an argument with my graduate music history professor about Schoenberg, and he promptly gave me a C in the class (while all the average students got As and the worse student got a B). As for Mozart and Bach, I'm ok with Mozart sounding like himself in all his work, and Bach's most boring cantata sounds better than the vast majority of music on this planet.
I had great fun with this!
Thank you!
My wallet nearly took your enthused recommendation for the Leslie Howard Liszt box set very seriously and literally... :)
Very amusing and iconoclastic. Furtively agree about Wagner, but would never admit it publicly. Re Mozart, I've erected the stake, spread the kindling and wood all round, and I'm coming for you!
Splendid! You nailed it, couldn't agree more.
Hmmm. Schoenberg’s Chamber Symphony #1, especially in its full orchestra arrangement (op. 9b) got better and better with repeated listening as and is now one of my absolute favorite works. There’s an exquisite struggle-of modernism pulsing its way through romanticism and winning the day. Modernism wins but it still sounds quite accessible and triumphant to these ears.
Schoenberg's Gurrelieder is one of the most beautiful classical pieces I have ever heard and does not sound difficult to me...
I really am not a fan of Schoenberg's music in general (and frankly don't get his atonal music at all), but I heard the introduction of Gurrrelieder (only the intro) and it's really beautiful, the atmosphere is magical, but it's not atonal like the music he later writes, I think what Dave wanted to say was more about atonal music in general or Schoenberg's atonal music, I never had a problem with Gurrelieder it sounded so good right at the start for me but for atonal music that's pretty different, can't understand it, and I don't think listening more will make me appreciate it as well so I think I get what he meant.
Lol, fun video! Classical hot takes! True on most Schoenberg, but Abbado conducting "A Survivor from Warsaw" was really good.
Listening to a Bach cantata for the musical enjoyment alone is like listening to a famous movie with the picture turned off. Unless you understand and (some would say) embrace the message, you're asking a truck missing two wheels to make deliveries.
That is a generic comment applicable to all good music with a text. You might say the same about Tosca. In all such cases, people listen for whatever reason, and no one can say one way is the right way.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I'm not arguing that everyone should listen in the same way and for the same reasons. I'm just saying that those who find movies boring without the picture might enjoy movies more with the picture switched on. If someone likes picture-less movies, I'm all for it if it brings them joy.
I really do agree with everything you say about Schönberg, and I'm a big fan of Webern and Berg so it's not about dodecaphonic music in general, it's just Schönberg. Wait, I actually agree with pretty much anything you say here!
Beethoven';s Grosse Fugue is the English Bulldog of chamber music -- so ugly it's beautiful. Absolutely love it.
I hate that Oscar Hammerstein II deleted his lyric "Oklahoma! Where the Bach is moldering in the barn" from the Broadway show.
Too highbrow for Broadway.
So right about Schoenberg. His tonal music is decent, but if people are really honest, they would rather hear an orchestrated version of "Happy Birthday To You" than his later works.
Mozart sounds the same? Yes, I agree. I find the Haydn Symphonies to be far more enjoyable and inventive.
Bruckner allegros? Right again. I once heard a commentator say that Bruckner wrote the same symphony, but did it 9 times. I have warmed up to Bruckner over the years, but still get that feeling of sameness from time to time.
I don't dislike Liszt as much as you do. I only think 85% of it is trash. (Unfortuntately, that proportion holds within many of his better pieces.) I think Liszt's probblem also is that his music ends itself to trashy performances more readily than others. Mayhbe that proves your point.
Agree with you about Schoenberg. One of my darkest evenings was a performance of Moses und Aron in Holland. "Wo ist Moses? Wo ist der Musik?"
Joyful Shostakovich 5th? Hmmm --- love all those jolly minor sixths in the final pages. I just re-heard Andre Previn's Sh5th, with the final pages outdoing even Bernstein's oroginal recordidng in gallopping to the final cadence, and thought it sounded so wrong.
Great stuff! You spoke out, what I think for long a time. Even the point about Wagner (whom I like) is right. Cut down "Tristan" to 2.45 hours, and you get a fine opera. In the "Flying Dutchman" , Wagner knew what he did. Afterwards he became a megalomaniac and wrote too much slow tempi. I just disagree just with your point about Schönberg - well, not totally, but a liitle bit. There aren't many works one can listen with joy (Schönberg detests joy, I would say) and, yes, even the "Transfigured Night" is weak, after all it's much too long for it's substance. But I have an affection for "Pelleas", although I know that the motivic material is far weaker than in works by Zemlinsky or Schreker. Also his transcriptions of Monn and Händel are great, in my opinion (and I like what you tell about them in your video).Moreover, I think that "Erwartung" is a good piece and one can listen to without difficulties, and the "Gurrelieder" are a wonderful piece, too, with exception perhaps of the final chorus. Mahler and Delius did such things better, I guess. But I'm no missionary. Besides: You're right with Mozart. But isn't this the case with all prolific composers? Think on Milhaud or Maxwell Davies. -
I once made a note that most symphonic concerts, motion pictures, sporting events, Olympic opening and closing ceremonies, and theatrical plays last somewhere between ninety minutes to a bit over two hours. Something less than that makes one feel cheated. Something longer than that tests patience even of sophisticated devotees. It's something to do with human nature. Pure music with no obvious distractions is generally on the short end, with Mahler's Third Symphony as the longest work in the symphonic repertory. Anything longer would be savagely cut until it conforms to the shorter limit of ninety or so minutes.
3:30 Best moment of classical music commentary :D
Wagner operas on DVD are the only way I could take them. I can watch an hour or two and turn it off and watch more another day.
I like your iconoclasm very much, however, with a little reserve for both Liszt and Wagner. Paradoxically enough, Wagner's music on the whole is too short to be thrown away or to get rid of. His oeuvre complète could last 24 hours or a few more. And I do not want to lose even a single measure of it. But your dirty secrets pleased me almost instantly. They were intended to be funny as well, I presume. Waiting for your list of other "Classical Music's Ten Dirtiest Secrets" I remain.
Love this! I have to admit I like some of the works of Liszt! Taking your comment about Bruckner further - I dislike (hate?) his music profusely! The longest I could ever try to listen to any of his symphonies was less than 5 minutes. Maybe there is something wrong with me ...
No, there is nothing wrong with you. You like what you like. Period.
I hear that. I just can't cope with Bruckner's notions of structure and form. What redeems him for me is the Adagios.
That was just great! 👏😀🎵
What you said about Schoenberg here also applies to Webern and Berg too as far as I'm concerned. There is nothing to be learned from the Second Viennese School.
Actually I disagree. I love all three.
@Schuyler Bacn lol