Good job. Really interesting I find Augustine so despicable. Not only that he had no empathy for the people suffering, but on top of that he threatened them with eternal suffering if they took the ruination of their lives as reason to doubt the supposedly all-powerful all-loving God he was demanding that they worship. (Btw, you've done really well at tightening up your speech pattern from the ums and ahs.)
Good points. I suppose in one way Augustine's hands were tied as the concept of eternal suffering is mentioned too many times in the new Testament to be dismissed from dogma. Ha ha yes - getting a little better at narration as well! Need to get a better mic though I think.
Are there any refutations to Augustine’s City of God? Also, I’m sure Julian mentioned this in his Against the Galileans but prior to Christianity, Roman Empire had endured many, many hardships while it was majority pagan yet was able to survive and even thrive! For sure it wasn’t Abrahamic God’s will, if it was, why did he allow polytheist cultures to emerge in Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, Greece, and even lands far away from antiquity like Peru? So to say that it was “God’s doing “ is asinine. Thank you for the video!
Thx for watching! Regarding refutations, Augustine at the end of Book 5 of City of God mentions certain people (ie pagans) writing answers to the points he had made. I quote that section below.. 'I think they have been sufficiently answered in these five books; of which books, when I had published the first three, and they had begun to come into the hands of many, I heard that certain persons were preparing against them an answer of some kind or other in writing. Then it was told me that they had already written their answer, but were waiting a time when they could publish it without danger. Such persons I would advise not to desire what cannot be of any advantage to them; for it is very easy for a man to seem to himself to have answered arguments, when he has only been unwilling to be silent. For what is more loquacious than vanity? And though it be able, if it like, to shout more loudly than the truth, it is not, for all that, more powerful than the truth.' Whether these men managed to publish their answers in an increasingly intolerant Christian world is another question. This was a time when pagan worship was being banned. Augustine himself above mentions they were waiting to publish their books 'without danger'. It seems they either didn't publish out of fear or perhaps the books were banned (as with Porphyry). Certainly we didn't have any pagan refutations against Augustine from that period extant sadly.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 rather unfortunate those men weren’t able to publish a response to Augustine. I would’ve love to read the counterpoints to Augustine’s arguments. I like to believe that not all greco-roman works are lost but undiscovered and will one day be found. What is your opinion on the City of God?
@@certainlynot9489 Yes it'd be great if a cache of banned pagan documents and books were found wouldn't it! City of God is an attack on paganism in general but I just wish Augustine had tackled the Old Testament god in the same way as he shows exactly the same weaknesses and frailties as the pagan deities. But he avoids doing this.
If i do remember well, Christianity, before the Sack of Rome, used to embrace the idea that the glory of the pagan Empire was for the will of God to facilitate the spread of Christianity through the globe. Clearly, when that glory started to fade under a christian rule, Augustine took the endeavour to justify the unespected outcome.
I can't recall coming across that. Most of these early 'saints' were quite combative, shall we say, against paganism and were pretty forthright in their opinions on non-believers.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Yes. I wonder what would have happened if instead of seeing demons in everything and everyone, they would have seen their Christ instead. Maybe they would have treated people better?
@@DIBBY40 demons are a doctrine of the church. Being said, we don't and don't need to look for demons under every second rock because we place our trust in God who is the creator of all things visible and invisible. I recommend that you have a serious conversation with an informed Catholic sometime.
@@Kitiwake I would love to have such a conversation. I have watched and read on Catholicism. There is much beauty there, but it also seems very rigid and unyielding to me. If I were to convert I wouldn't just be embracing Jesus, but a wholsale acceptance of church doctrines and teaching most of which I don't share. I can get the doctrine on demons; but I'm not sure the early church fathers trusted so much in God as the power of the Roman State when it came to dealing with the ancient classical pagan world. Laws outlawing paganism, forced conversion under Theodosius, destruction of shrines and temples, exiles and murder. Is this what Jesus had in mind when he said to "Love your enemies. Do good to those who persecute you"?
@@DIBBY40I suggest, if so, it's what Theodosius had in mind. But on the faith... it's very simple You can't have Jesus and decline his church. While Rome fell Christianity enured and filled the vacuum which shows us that Christianity in it's own right existed independently of Rome itself.
Another great video! Something I find ironic is that Christians in the East claimed several "miraculous" salvations of Constantinople, and still celebrate them liturgically today, 500 years after the fall of the city to the Muslims. For example, the Eastern Orthodox Church's feast of the "Protection of the Theotokos" (the Orthodox title for the Virgin Mary) commemorates the deliverance of Constantinople from a Slavic army, whose fleet was destroyed by a storm. They also have a very prominent liturgical hymn, "To Thee the Champion Leader" which celebrates Mary as the defender of Constantinople. They still sing these hymns today and marvel at how great Jesus was to save the city, and they don't seem to see the irony.
Fantastic video! Exactly the sort of thing I was expecting from you. So I’d like to thank you heartily for the great work, and wish you all the best. Cheers.
@@Vyom4676 In India (from the name I assume your are from there!) saints are generally mild retiring chaps preaching tolerance and a rejection of materialism. However in Christianity, the early Church and saints thrived on waging war against non believers and heretics. So a quite different, much more aggressive and expansionist psychology from the beginning. .
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 yes sir,from India,always wanted to learn about Greek and other philosophical but non Semitic thoughts. Since many Indians feel a certain keenness to the Greek wisdom. Thank you so much for your content once again.
@@Varuna2098 Interestingly the Goths seems quite tolerant of Catholics however the Arian Vandals had a deep dislike of Catholics and gave then a real hard time in North Africa.
@@Varuna2098 A good first hand source is Victor of Vita and his description of Vandal persecution of Catholic clergy after their conquest of North Africa. Quite graphic but worth reading for its historic value. Certainly during the Byzantine reconquest the Catholics would have definitely be seen as a 5th column if they weren't before! Appreciate your interest - thx :)
Thanks. I have begun to read City of God because of your interesting video herein. The Goths became christians and Rome contained as the focal point of Christianity. So, there was nothing particular about the sack of Rome that wasn't eventually adjusted.
Interesting book my friend! I'm sure you'll enjoy it. It is a product of its time but that's a good thing as it delves into the mindset of Christians (and pagans) of that time. Mentions Julius Caesar, Alexander, Cicero, Sallust, Virgil, Aeneas, Romulus and others in passing during his arguments and discourse which spices things up a bit. The point I was making regarding the Goths was more that their attack led to the decline and fall of Rome as a power although the city itself obviously remained as the new centre of western Christianity,
God put us on earth to suffer. Ha! Like that's important? The Jewish God is believed by the Jews to reward or punish according to one's devotion in this life. The Christian doesn't value his own life as much as he values eternal life.
Yes sure but the problem of Rome (and the western half of the empire) falling still requires an answer. The Eastern Roman Empire though Roman in origin was more a Greek inheritance of the empire built by Rome.The Byzantine Empire as Gibbon put it memorably was 'in a state of perpetual decline' over its thousand year history as Arabs, Bulgar, Avars, Turks and of course Crusaders bit of chunks over the centuries.
Why? Paul himself said numerous times that the new world would came out so soon that he would be alive. He conforts his followers in the letters by saying to them that the new world is about to begin and that most of them would not even see death. Now they are all dead and the new world did not come, it still is the same, and the world did not end in Paul day.
Until we have definitive proof of ANY miracle or supernatural event its quite right to be (extremely) skeptical on such a subject and treat it as myth. As far as I am aware there are hundreds of 'miracles' mentioned in the Bible (not to mention in the stories of numerous saints) but which have curiously left no trace of evidence. There is no alleged miracle which had stood the test of time as far as I know. Jesus for instance could have levitated a mountain and simply left it hanging in the air for all time as proof of his divinity. But strangely he didn't. Or with the parting of the Red Sea we should have remnants of material of the Egyptian army chasing the Israelites. Or evidence of a global flood etc etc and so on. But if you can point out ANY evidence at all that exists of miracles or supernatural activity as mentioned in the Bible I'd be glad to consider it. To believe these stories without evidence simply leaves folks vulnerable to slipping down a rabbit hole where they also must believe in demons, devils, giants, unicorns, big fish that swallow men whole and spit them out, talking donkeys, talking snakes and so on - because these are also mentioned in the same book.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Thanks for the kind reply. To demand that miracles from the bible provide scientific proof is an impossible injunction, as the events recorded therein occurred prior to the age of modern scientific investigation which began in the 16th century. However, for example, they're are 14 confirmed miracles by the church credited to miraculous healings since the Blessed Virgin Mary's apparition at Lourdes in France in 1854. Note that these occurred within the age of scientific investigation and were found, after controlled and rigorous forensic scrutiny to have no scientific explanation. .. Which helped to define them as "miraculous". Point being that miracles can have scientific proof. A Christian is not bound to accept modern "miracles". I'm merely pointing out that real miracles do occur today. Edit: demons are referred to frequently in the new testament, as is hell. Jesus himself is recorded as being tempted by the devil. Therefore a Christian, as a follower of Christ, is obliged to accept the existence of such. The church however, leaves events of the old testament/Jewish Torah (which is not the Christian bible but was appended thereto at the Council of Hippo 393) open to metaphor or otherwise and as such does not bind a Christian in fundamental belief in "the old testament". Unicorns (in the old testament. I don't think so); talking snake (did the snake talk... or communicate?); or talking mules...idk what that's about.. But allegorical at most, imo.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Impetuous man thinks he can ascend taking on the nature of a god through his own merits yet scoffs at the possibly that God might have descended to take on man’s nature in order to perfect it. Therein lies the conundrum of the age.
I recommend to all those who wish to understand this very complex issue, please watch the movie about St. Augustine, "Restless Heart". May the Lord Jesus Christ Bless all of you and pray to his Mother!!
Good job. Really interesting
I find Augustine so despicable. Not only that he had no empathy for the people suffering, but on top of that he threatened them with eternal suffering if they took the ruination of their lives as reason to doubt the supposedly all-powerful all-loving God he was demanding that they worship.
(Btw, you've done really well at tightening up your speech pattern from the ums and ahs.)
Good points. I suppose in one way Augustine's hands were tied as the concept of eternal suffering is mentioned too many times in the new Testament to be dismissed from dogma.
Ha ha yes - getting a little better at narration as well! Need to get a better mic though I think.
he is disposable easy to c. they had the kings and queens to back them with there army and war efforts
Are there any refutations to Augustine’s City of God? Also, I’m sure Julian mentioned this in his Against the Galileans but prior to Christianity, Roman Empire had endured many, many hardships while it was majority pagan yet was able to survive and even thrive! For sure it wasn’t Abrahamic God’s will, if it was, why did he allow polytheist cultures to emerge in Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, Greece, and even lands far away from antiquity like Peru? So to say that it was “God’s doing “ is asinine. Thank you for the video!
Thx for watching! Regarding refutations, Augustine at the end of Book 5 of City of God mentions certain people (ie pagans) writing answers to the points he had made. I quote that section below..
'I think they have been sufficiently answered in these five books; of which books, when I had published the first three, and they had begun to come into the hands of many, I heard that certain persons were preparing against them an answer of some kind or other in writing. Then it was told me that they had already written their answer, but were waiting a time when they could publish it without danger. Such persons I would advise not to desire what cannot be of any advantage to them; for it is very easy for a man to seem to himself to have answered arguments, when he has only been unwilling to be silent. For what is more loquacious than vanity? And though it be able, if it like, to shout more loudly than the truth, it is not, for all that, more powerful than the truth.'
Whether these men managed to publish their answers in an increasingly intolerant Christian world is another question. This was a time when pagan worship was being banned. Augustine himself above mentions they were waiting to publish their books 'without danger'. It seems they either didn't publish out of fear or perhaps the books were banned (as with Porphyry). Certainly we didn't have any pagan refutations against Augustine from that period extant sadly.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 rather unfortunate those men weren’t able to publish a response to Augustine. I would’ve love to read the counterpoints to Augustine’s arguments. I like to believe that not all greco-roman works are lost but undiscovered and will one day be found. What is your opinion on the City of God?
@@certainlynot9489 Yes it'd be great if a cache of banned pagan documents and books were found wouldn't it! City of God is an attack on paganism in general but I just wish Augustine had tackled the Old Testament god in the same way as he shows exactly the same weaknesses and frailties as the pagan deities. But he avoids doing this.
If i do remember well, Christianity, before the Sack of Rome, used to embrace the idea that the glory of the pagan Empire was for the will of God to facilitate the spread of Christianity through the globe. Clearly, when that glory started to fade under a christian rule, Augustine took the endeavour to justify the unespected outcome.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361Of course he's going to make an exception for his god.
If i remember correctly Alexander sparred people who took refuge in a temple when he took Tyre.
It was certainly a rash assertion to make that no enemy ever gave quarter to civilians in a siege
Does Augustine ever mention, "Love thy neighbour as thyself?"
I can't recall coming across that. Most of these early 'saints' were quite combative, shall we say, against paganism and were pretty forthright in their opinions on non-believers.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Yes. I wonder what would have happened if instead of seeing demons in everything and everyone, they would have seen their Christ instead. Maybe they would have treated people better?
@@DIBBY40 demons are a doctrine of the church.
Being said, we don't and don't need to look for demons under every second rock because we place our trust in God who is the creator of all things visible and invisible.
I recommend that you have a serious conversation with an informed Catholic sometime.
@@Kitiwake I would love to have such a conversation. I have watched and read on Catholicism. There is much beauty there, but it also seems very rigid and unyielding to me. If I were to convert I wouldn't just be embracing Jesus, but a wholsale acceptance of church doctrines and teaching most of which I don't share. I can get the doctrine on demons; but I'm not sure the early church fathers trusted so much in God as the power of the Roman State when it came to dealing with the ancient classical pagan world. Laws outlawing paganism, forced conversion under Theodosius, destruction of shrines and temples, exiles and murder. Is this what Jesus had in mind when he said to "Love your enemies. Do good to those who persecute you"?
@@DIBBY40I suggest, if so, it's what Theodosius had in mind.
But on the faith... it's very simple You can't have Jesus and decline his church.
While Rome fell Christianity enured and filled the vacuum which shows us that Christianity in it's own right existed independently of Rome itself.
St Copeustine
lmao
Another great video! Something I find ironic is that Christians in the East claimed several "miraculous" salvations of Constantinople, and still celebrate them liturgically today, 500 years after the fall of the city to the Muslims. For example, the Eastern Orthodox Church's feast of the "Protection of the Theotokos" (the Orthodox title for the Virgin Mary) commemorates the deliverance of Constantinople from a Slavic army, whose fleet was destroyed by a storm. They also have a very prominent liturgical hymn, "To Thee the Champion Leader" which celebrates Mary as the defender of Constantinople. They still sing these hymns today and marvel at how great Jesus was to save the city, and they don't seem to see the irony.
I don't know if I've simply missed your presentations, or you've been on a bender. In any case, good to see/hear you again. Thank you.
Thank you kindly my friend! Glad you enjoyed it. Been a little busy recently but back on the case :)
Fantastic video! Exactly the sort of thing I was expecting from you. So I’d like to thank you heartily for the great work, and wish you all the best.
Cheers.
You're welcome! Thx for watching!
Thank you for delivering this wonderful work to us !
My pleasure! Appreciate you watching :)
Namaste.As always amazing sir.please continue to bless us.
Appreciate the watch Bharat!
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 sir,after listening to this.i am amazed how are they even considered as great men and amazingly enough saint.
@@Vyom4676 In India (from the name I assume your are from there!) saints are generally mild retiring chaps preaching tolerance and a rejection of materialism. However in Christianity, the early Church and saints thrived on waging war against non believers and heretics. So a quite different, much more aggressive and expansionist psychology from the beginning. .
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 yes sir,from India,always wanted to learn about Greek and other philosophical but non Semitic thoughts.
Since many Indians feel a certain keenness to the Greek wisdom.
Thank you so much for your content once again.
It was sacked by other Christians. The Goths were Christians. Vandals too.
Yes, interestingly the Vandals were also Arian Christians so 'heretics' as far as Catholics were concerned.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 They were less idolatrous than the Catholics. God was with them.
@@cowsmuggler1646 Yes Ive always thought the Arians had the better interpretation of the scriptures than Catholics as well
@@Varuna2098 Interestingly the Goths seems quite tolerant of Catholics however the Arian Vandals had a deep dislike of Catholics and gave then a real hard time in North Africa.
@@Varuna2098 A good first hand source is Victor of Vita and his description of Vandal persecution of Catholic clergy after their conquest of North Africa. Quite graphic but worth reading for its historic value. Certainly during the Byzantine reconquest the Catholics would have definitely be seen as a 5th column if they weren't before! Appreciate your interest - thx :)
Thanks.
I have begun to read City of God because of your interesting video herein.
The Goths became christians and Rome contained as the focal point of Christianity.
So, there was nothing particular about the sack of Rome that wasn't eventually adjusted.
Interesting book my friend! I'm sure you'll enjoy it. It is a product of its time but that's a good thing as it delves into the mindset of Christians (and pagans) of that time. Mentions Julius Caesar, Alexander, Cicero, Sallust, Virgil, Aeneas, Romulus and others in passing during his arguments and discourse which spices things up a bit. The point I was making regarding the Goths was more that their attack led to the decline and fall of Rome as a power although the city itself obviously remained as the new centre of western Christianity,
God put us on earth to suffer.
Ha! Like that's important?
The Jewish God is believed by the Jews to reward or punish according to one's devotion in this life.
The Christian doesn't value his own life as much as he values eternal life.
Eternal life is the be all and end all as far as Ive seen in the new Testament.
Jesus neither failed to protect Rome nor did the whole Roman Empire fall in 476.
1:23 The Byzantine Empire surely survived later on .
Yes sure but the problem of Rome (and the western half of the empire) falling still requires an answer. The Eastern Roman Empire though Roman in origin was more a Greek inheritance of the empire built by Rome.The Byzantine Empire as Gibbon put it memorably was 'in a state of perpetual decline' over its thousand year history as Arabs, Bulgar, Avars, Turks and of course Crusaders bit of chunks over the centuries.
St Andrew was sent by the Christ into the Black Sea region. St Andrew disappeared for 20 years. There is your answer. Isaac Newton wrote about Rome.
Paul brilliantly answered your question by alluding to the fact the universe was pregnant until a new world was born...
Re-read Paul !
Why? Paul himself said numerous times that the new world would came out so soon that he would be alive. He conforts his followers in the letters by saying to them that the new world is about to begin and that most of them would not even see death. Now they are all dead and the new world did not come, it still is the same, and the world did not end in Paul day.
Wow, Christian "mythology"?
You showed your hand early.
Until we have definitive proof of ANY miracle or supernatural event its quite right to be (extremely) skeptical on such a subject and treat it as myth. As far as I am aware there are hundreds of 'miracles' mentioned in the Bible (not to mention in the stories of numerous saints) but which have curiously left no trace of evidence. There is no alleged miracle which had stood the test of time as far as I know. Jesus for instance could have levitated a mountain and simply left it hanging in the air for all time as proof of his divinity. But strangely he didn't. Or with the parting of the Red Sea we should have remnants of material of the Egyptian army chasing the Israelites. Or evidence of a global flood etc etc and so on. But if you can point out ANY evidence at all that exists of miracles or supernatural activity as mentioned in the Bible I'd be glad to consider it. To believe these stories without evidence simply leaves folks vulnerable to slipping down a rabbit hole where they also must believe in demons, devils, giants, unicorns, big fish that swallow men whole and spit them out, talking donkeys, talking snakes and so on - because these are also mentioned in the same book.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361
Thanks for the kind reply.
To demand that miracles from the bible provide scientific proof is an impossible injunction, as the events recorded therein occurred prior to the age of modern scientific investigation which began in the 16th century.
However, for example, they're are 14 confirmed miracles by the church credited to miraculous healings since the Blessed Virgin Mary's apparition at Lourdes in France in 1854.
Note that these occurred within the age of scientific investigation and were found, after controlled and rigorous forensic scrutiny to have no scientific explanation. .. Which helped to define them as "miraculous".
Point being that miracles can have scientific proof.
A Christian is not bound to accept modern "miracles". I'm merely pointing out that real miracles do occur today.
Edit: demons are referred to frequently in the new testament, as is hell. Jesus himself is recorded as being tempted by the devil.
Therefore a Christian, as a follower of Christ, is obliged to accept the existence of such.
The church however, leaves events of the old testament/Jewish Torah (which is not the Christian bible but was appended thereto at the Council of Hippo 393) open to metaphor or otherwise and as such does not bind a Christian in fundamental belief in "the old testament".
Unicorns (in the old testament. I don't think so);
talking snake (did the snake talk... or communicate?);
or talking mules...idk what that's about.. But allegorical at most, imo.
I will be praying for you.
Lol. Weep, cope, and seethe.
@@jakek.403 Be praying for you too. He died and rose for you. You should check Christ Jesus out.
@@jakek.403
PS I have a cat named "Jake". :)
@@inhisservice8862 Jesus, get away from me you lunatic. You sure you’re supposed to have access to the internet?
These troll channel are getting pretty irky though
all gods are the same...
mythical!
Mythical. Well certainly ones that come to earth and spend their youth learning carpentry to make a living ;)
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361
I heard from celsus that he spent his youth in egypt...
Learning magic
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361
Impetuous man thinks he can ascend taking on the nature of a god through his own merits yet scoffs at the possibly that God might have descended to take on man’s nature in order to perfect it.
Therein lies the conundrum of the age.
All the gods of the gentiles are demons.
Psalm 95:5 DRA
And THAT is the second greatest lie of all: nothing to see here; we don't exist.
#JesusIsComing
I recommend to all those who wish to understand this very complex issue, please watch the movie about St. Augustine, "Restless Heart". May the Lord Jesus Christ Bless all of you and pray to his Mother!!
I’m sure it has some spectacular Olympic level mental gymnastics 🤸♂️. I’ll pass
St Augustine accepted slavery and I suspect that would also require some explanation of a similar Olympic level.