@@jonathanstensberg I wish it were that easy, but considering that the old rights of way (aside from the Baltimore and Annapolis trail) are well and truly gone, both either covered in suburban sprawl or sunk into the bushes, the old rights of way would be much harder to work with than the current trendy idea of highway ROW running to save money.
@@SteveGettingAroundPhilly The ROW from Odenton to Annapolis is mostly still there. The biggest problem is the Parole Mall, but you're already planning to tunnel from Parole anyway. You'd have NIMBY problems building tracks next to Generals Hwy and some backstreets, but it's doable. With just 12 miles of tracks, you'd have a spur from the NEC to Parole for pretty cheap, enabling both DC-"Annapolis" and Baltimore-"Annapolis" MARC services on a small budget. A little more money to get into actual Annapolis, and Loew's Access Rd gets you within a couple blocks of the statehouse. The real reason not to use this ROW is that DC-Annapolis via Odenton is a very inefficient routing, likely adding 15 minutes of travel time compared to a US-50 routing. And considering a US-50 routing should do the run in 30-45 minutes (depending on stops and design speeds), that's a huge difference.
@@jonathanstensberg There's always exceptions to everything it seems... for now anyway, since Cleveland is apparently ditching the heavy rail stuff soon. *Sad noises*
@@douglasgraebner1831 It isn't as bad as it reads from Steve's post. What actually happens is that the Red, Blue and Green Line will have a unified rolling stock instead of running separate type of trains for each line (and really, the Red Line already skirted around the definition of heavy vs. light rail, compare LA Metro Line C which touches this distinction from the other direction).
THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS VIDEO! I used to go to school in Annapolis and I've been thinking this connection was being slept on for YEARS, from the former B&A interurban line that's been largely forgotten somehow to the current bus services between Baltimore and Annapolis that CANNOT keep up with demand. More people should be talking about this!!!
Originally from Baltimore and back in the 90's they thought about running the Light Rail all the way to Annapolis on the old B and A right of way, but nimby's killed it.
Ocean City Resident here: I wholly support an Amtrak to Salisbury. People would no doubt use it. I know I would. Currently the only public transportation that works is a BayRunner Shuttle. Actually semi-private. But it's overpriced AF.
Here's my thoughts on proposals 1 and 2. If they extend the Metro from Largo or New Carrollton, I think it would make more sense if there was a forced transfer there, with the new lines running from either station to Annapolis. Would mean that any backups on the (maybe at some point) Orange/Silver tunnel don't affect the line out to Annapolis. It would also just make the line too long, and could maybe order 4-car trains just for that line, since you likely wouldn't need the capacity that would come with a regular DC Metro train. And if you need say, 6-car trains, then allowing for the platforms to be lengthened up to 6-cars, without needing to tear down the tracks, could be done when the line is being built
22:42 the issues with the Purple Line and Red Line have less to do with MDOT/MTA and more to do with the bungling by the previous governor’s administration. The Red Line has a ballooned budget now only because it was originally cancelled in 2015 and had to be brought back to life.
It was never budgeted properly in the first place. Let’s not forget the dozens of lawsuits for things like environmentalists to property owners. That delayed things years. Then there were route issues. Contract issues. It wasn’t the last Governor, it was the incompetence of the state.
The long-range plan should connect the NEC to the Atlantic coast. Ocean City MD needs rail service; Annapolis should be a stop on the way. Similar to how Amtrak has spurs to Norfolk and Newport News from the main east-coast north-south line, or how NJT connects Philly to Atlantic City. Connecting Annapolis to Baltimore is preferred to DC, since you could then continue north to Harrisburg via York.
With little adjustments to curves for a little more money, they could make the Annapolis rail link 186 mph capable and be part of a hs2 style rail system for the northeast corridor like what lucid stew envisioned. If you remember, even in high speed areas of the nec, northeast regionals and even commuter systems like mbta and nj transit run their trains on the same tracks.
FWIW, residents in Anne Arundel County are the reason why the Baltimore Metro Subway exists in its current form. Mind you this was in the '70s so attitudes may have changed but I do believe there would be a lot of apprehension with extending Metro to Annapolis, be it from pearl clutchers and NIMBYS. There is a lot of wealth and influence in that part of Anne Arundel County and they would definitely fight tooth and nail to not see it be built
I think the best would be following the old right of way and the poplar trail with the Annapolis station being at Westgate circle and stops being at Parole/Annapolis Mall and crownsville before meeting up with the Northeast corridor at Odenton
I really agree with extending the light rail to Annapolis, but I feel like the line between DC and Annapolis should be a different line to achieve faster speeds and to keep from delays so far from DC cascading along the entire line. I think it should be a different service alla nhsl.
I also think mdot should look into building the old wb&a line between Baltimore and DC as a freight only bypass to allow the Camden line to be passenger only to allow for higher speeds
The old Baltimore & Annapolis corridor is still intact from where it used to cross below Rt. 50 to the location of the old Severn River trestle swing bridge, then all the way to College Creek along the north side of Rowe Blvd. That's far and away the best route by a huge margin into Annapolis from the north. Replacing the old trestle with another bridge (exactly the same way that the old Rt. 450 low level drawbridge was replaced by a new high level roadway bridge) is the only way into town that makes any sense. With the insanely ruinous cost for tunneling, and the also insane cost for right of way acquisition via eminent domain and condemnation in the extremely expensive Annapolis real estate environment, using as much as possible of the splendid former B&A right of way that the state of Maryland so carefully preserved for exactly this reason is probably the only way that passenger rail service has any chance of ever reaching Annapolis again from the north. Speaking of historic rights of way, the original alignment of the old Annapolis and Elk Ridge Railroad (later part of the Washington, Baltimore, and Annapolis interurban line) is also intact from Rt. 50 via Defense Street and the north side of West Street, until it diverges into what's now a utility corridor carrying power lines, which then becomes Poplar Avenue and finally Loew's Access Road, until it runs right into the back of the old Annapolis train station location now occupied by the Anne Arundel County Department of Social Services. That old train station was also used by the old Baltimore and Annapolis line, which leads to this final and highly fortunate aspect of using intact former rail corridors. The alignments I've mentioned above could be used again with a combination of efficient surface running and reasonably affordable elevated structures. The only thing be needed to link the old route into Annapolis from the west with the old route into Annapolis from the north is less than a half mile of new alignment. In the context of lovely and historic downtown Annapolis blocks west of Church Circle, where the new station would replace the Social Services Dept. building, it would be cheaper but also quite ugly and obtrusive to build an elevated link, while vastly more expensive yet far less obtrusive to build a tunnel link. Either the elevated structure or the tunnel would leave the old WB&A surface alignment where necessary along the Loew's Access Road, then return to the old B&A surface alignment where necessary west of College Creek. What I've laid out here is a perfect fit in detail for the local Annapolis layout that would perfectly fit with the author's extremely sensible "Proposal 3" which seems to be the nest or his ideas. Looking closely at Google Maps while reading my details will show how sensible this arrangement would be within Annapolis, which I've in mind since first becoming interested in railroad history while also enjoying many happy times time at a college friend's family home on the Severn in the Wardour neighborhood during the 1980's.
All I know is The Purple Line from MDOT MTA is going to run from Montgomery County MD to Prince George’s County MD & connect to The Green, Red & Yellow Lines. As well as Amtrak & MARC.
DMV Guy Here - Let me preface by saying any transit is better than what there is now. Which is nothing. Even BRT is better than a no build alternative. However, I really dislike the Washington Metro going outside the first or second right suburbs outside the beltway. Metro is not for connecting cities, imo. This goes for the Silver Line too - It should have been a VRE line. I love the idea of having a NEC or MARC connection to Annapolis. MARC is already really fast. Metro is a very fast metro, but MARC is very fast commuter rail. I commented something similar on (I think) Dan's submission to Richmond. I want to see VRE and MARC become regional rail that connects the area. I have zero trust in MDOT's ability to acquire right of way, but if VRPA can do it so can they! Edit - shouldve waited until the very end, you mentioned dan's video
Very thought provoking video, as someone who's lived in the DMV their whole life this would be a massive almost megaproject. This is indeed, a modest proposal that would be crazy to see. I don't know exactly how you would calculate this, but I'd be interesting to see the differences. WMATA is looking to cover more of the dense parts of the DMV (DC, Arlington, and parts of PGC) with a new metro line to alleviate the BOS and provide a more northward crosstown service rather then more stuff into the exurbs but its interesting nonetheless.
Thanks Sammy! I definitely like a lot of the ideas that WMATA has for the future, even if it is a long way away from seeing it happen, and this was definitely an interesting thought experiment for me to get out there. I do like a lot of WMATA's ideas for the future, and the Blue Line Loop at least shows they want to see expansion in underserved parts of the region with crowded bus corridors, so they got a lot of good ideas, but I was also keen to show that the commuter rails (both MARC and VRE, but especially MARC since at least VRE is likely to get massive improvements down the line with ROW buyouts and improved infrastructure) deserves more love than they get, and that if Maryland was serious about expanding MARC, this is definitely one thing to think of on their part. Having MARC service run as fast as Brightline on the regular, and not just with their unreliable HHP-8s would immediately make an impact to me, especially on a run to Annapolis like this. It was definitely a lot of fun to think about this, and go around filming, and I'll definitely be back soon for more!
Us DC Metro employees just got a memo about trains returning to design speed in certain sections, i.e., running at 75 mph where the geography allows. This is to start in the new year, so soon. The goal is to make the trains run faster so passengers have shorter transit times, always a plus.
A lot to unpack here but several good points. However... MARC bought diesels because not only were they cheap (and at the time, the SC-44's were replacing the AEM-7s), they don't have enough engines to service the CSX-held Brunswick and Camden in addition to the Penn lines. Many trains off the Brunswick line do a few stints up and down the Penn line before going back to Brunswick. So they need the operational flexibility. That said, restoring the Mount Claire Connector between the Penn and Camden Lines would not only allow MARC to continue to run diesels into Camden Yards, but also access it's Riverside repair yard much easier. Thus, Annapolis-DC service *could* be diesel to a point. This would require the line to run exclusively on MD 50 until it got close... but then, if you did an initial termination at Riva Road (and the park & ride there), you'd get some starting cash because you can offload Commuter Bus to the train. Overall, you plan jives with mine: New MARC line. If it goes electric with EMUs? Even better.
Currently, there are several studies/proposals for building a new Chesapeake Bay Bridge. While building a new bridge, put a set of tracks in the middle and connect the Delmarva peninsula. Service could start in Wilmington and pass through Dover Delaware and have connecting service to points south. This line could relieve some of the congestion on the NEC!
Good video. I think trains should go back to Annapolis. I’ve been saying this a lot. They want to replace the current bay bridges. Something should connect the Eastern shore. Extending the light rail from glen burnout sounds like it would be the easier option. But Marc service from BWI would be nice. Have it go across the new bridge. It could connect back to the NEC in Elkton or Newark. I think the reason Marc doesn’t have new electric locomotives is Amtrak stopped servicing them.
And here I was thinking the Tappan Zee Bridge freaked people out? Great video. Steve! Never been to Annapolis but if there was a train there I’d love to go! Also the idea of a semi-back up line in lieu of NEC isn’t the worst idea.
There are provision on the east end of the Largo Metrorail station to allow the extension of the Blue line to the east. The elevated beyond east end of the station were built with provision for future junction turnouts that diverge to the left of the tail tracks that are clearly visible at 10:22 The tali track tunnels descend to a depth deep enough to allow the eastward extension to be in subway turning to the east under Medical Center Drive.
@@porcelainthunder2213 I know about the location of the tail track as I toured them several times during there construction. They are under the properties on the west side Lottsford Road. Prince George's County had WMATA place them underground to allow future developments to be built on the surface above them. The location of the provision for the future turnouts will allow the extension of Blue line to entering tunnel portals north the of tail track portals allowing the extension to pass over the tail track tunnel.
I have also been thinking about how to bring rail service to Annapolis too. It may be a video on my channel at some point! Of the bunch, I definitely liked your last proposal the best. I’m also biased because my current thoughts tend to focus on considering MARC to Annapolis from DC and/or Baltimore. I’m in the contest too, but I wouldn’t even be mad if I lost to you, for this was a fun video to watch. I’ll join your Discord soon!
@@RallyingforRail Love to have you on there! I've enjoyed a few of your videos and definitely would love to see more. Whenever you want to chat about it, the discord is open!
@@SteveGettingAroundPhilly Another idea for the Northeast Corridor branches is have it go from the DelMrVa Peninsula into New Jersey such as Cape May heading for New York City
The most viable option is a Metro extension from New Carrolton to Annapolis / Parole. I doubt real estate would be available in downtown Annapolis - anything downtown would need to be totally underground. Perhaps a light rail connection to Glen Burnie / BWI could be a second phase using the WB&A ROW, but the connection to DC is the priority. No bridging over the Severn River to connect the two lines, but a "union station" at the old naval station industrial site could be built.
I'm curious about your thoughts on extending MARC service to Hagerstown, Cumberland, and other points in Western Maryland. I think what this would really need is running a new MARC line along I-70 from Baltimore.
wow I also have family in the area and made a plan to connect annapolis by rail, my idea was a high floor light rail system with 2 lines that connects to bwi station
If a station of any sort was built at Six flags, they would Bulldoze that theme park so quickly, cash out, and develop it into high density. The Chesapeake Bay Bridge should be rebuilt as a three tube tunnel. Two for road traffic, one for rail. That would be much safer than a better use for all. Also potentially hazardous freight rail could bypass the major cities. Would love to see a two part train start in DC and Baltimore, combine in Annapolis, and then run the eastern shore, preferably following route 50, but straight across to Delaware, then down the existing line and then east to Ocean City would be great too.
I agree with the idea of WMATA extending the Blue/Silver from Largo Town Center to Annapolis being ideally the least favorite. The costs to extend the system would be far astronomical than the State of Maryland could even fathom. So, that's out. The second option being the extension of the MTA Light Rail sounds slightly more doable, but still runs into TONS of problems. Namely the NIMBY crowd that went down screaming during the Purple Line talks. The costs would be slightly more manageable than deep boring tunnels under soft grounds, especially nearest the watershed that is Annapolis. The idea of extending the Orange Line sounds like it would be far cheaper than the Blue/Silver extension with more at grade or elevated options along the Hanson Highway. MY idea would be to branch off the Penn Line via MARC utilizing the defunct trackage seen between Bowie State and Odenton. I honestly think THAT would be immensely cheaper to clear out an existing track bed of overgrowth, and planning to extend from where the tracks ended along that line. Tying into the Penn Line/Northeast Corridor would allow for slightly faster connection times, as well as laying the groundwork for frequencies between Odenton and Annapolis with Odenton being the originating and terminating point for that line extension to keep MARC's rolling stock moving in between the NEC/Penn Line runs as it does with the variations between Baltimore-Penn, Martin State (weekends) and Perryville (Rush Service). What do you think? (A side note for the Annapolis Extension from the Penn Line: I would very much rather keep a lot of the stations above ground via the Park and Ride lots to simplify and keep costs lower. Another thing to note is that MARC utilizes the push-pull service, which would be far more beneficial than making a throughway via your proposed diversion via tunnels. I have a strong feeling Amtrak would resist the idea based on the fact that they will push for customer appreciation, thus dumping this particular problem on MTA/MARC. Same goes for ideas for expanding their Brunswick Line to include Hagerstown via Frederick et al. We just can't win as commuters, can we?)
Metro's should not be used for intercity trips. Light rail is way worse and simply is not a viable solution Baltimore to Annapolis. Love your point on New Carrolton as a great transit hub, I think a Marc electrified spur line from New Carrollton down route 50 is best, cheaper, higher top speed and wide station spacing better served, more comfortable for long distance, can single track at points and have direct service to downtown DC and Baltimore.
I had the idea if we do a branch from BWI via a new station directly at the airport vs the existing one for MARC Delaware short-turns and Annapolis service. I never saw Amtrak using it, just regional rail (which would be RER style, including a new-build branch to Waldorf connecting to the Fredericksburg line, in addition to all day frequent service to Woodbridge/Quantico and Manassas in the south and BWI/Glen Burnie, Germantown/Clarksville, and Baltimore Penn in the north). I guess connecting to the Peninsula would change that with stops at Centerville and Middleton in between Wilmington (just need to add a connection before Newark DE) and Annapolis (and likely Bowie too)
Why not a MARC line into Camden Station Baltimore and perhaps continuing to Penn Station Baltimore through the old Mount Royal Station? That would supplement what you propose for the NEC and help revitalize Baltimore center.
@EdwardM-t8p That's definitely its own discussion in its own right, and it will definitely be something I touch on in the future. The big problem there is the same problem that hampers the current Camden Line service from DC to Baltimote Camden, which is that it's owned by CSX, and is a very busy freight corridor, and running it through to Penn Station (which I assume means using either the current Howard Street Tunnel or a new tunnel) will either be hard to work with regarding needing to share with a lot of passenger trains and an equally high number of freight trains currently, or equally as expensive as what I propose here in the current situation with ROW buyouts and expansion of capacity (the latter all but guaranteeing the need for a second downtown tunnel from Camden to Penn). That's my take on the situation for now, but I definitely need to research it further. I'd love to see the Camden Line reach its full potential, but it's going to be a tricky sell with the NEC being actively worked on and CSX owning the line to Camden all but requires Maryland buying out the tracks like Virginia is doing south of DC to Richmond as a set to making these improvements happen, and the politics of that are a tricky affair that I'm not sure if Maryland is ready for or not. I'd love to be proven wrong on that point though.
A connection to Annapolis is such an obvious thing that it drive me absolutely nuts there isn't one. And nothing to the DelMarVa beaches? Insane. Route 1 along the coast should have at the very least a light rail, but it barely even has a bus. Lord knows there's enough room for it on the massively overbuilt highway. But you know. Just one more lane will fix it, bro.
the srevice should be called the marylander and gofro trough baltimore and the west to frederick and hagerstown. connecting all the major cities is maryland and maybe even get longer distace exprees going to nyc and paring it with rthe existing albany a ending trains.
This November I went to visit one of my relatives who lives in Annapolis. Would've been nice to take a train all the way there, instead of being picked up in a car at BWI Airport Station.
It wouldn’t be quite as good for intercity connectivity outside of MD, but I’ve always liked the thought of an electrified rail line between Columbia and Annapolis through Odenton, which could connect directly to both the NEC and the CSX mainline. You could then have services originating in annapolis or columbia that go to baltimore or dc, as well as direct service between annapolis and columbia. I’m def biased cuz I often travel to Columbia and it’s frustrating that there’s basically no way to get there by transit, but I think the project could be done for pretty cheap by following the right of way of MD state route 32 for most of the route.
Me and a friend have been designing a system for annapolis and we thought to baltimore it would be separate from the light rail. However it would share trackage with it from glen burnie until just before camden yards where it would go into the csx tunnel and act like the tunnel in philly. The trains would be similar to those on the south shore line in indiana
2:57 in, there's a claim that Annapolis was the state Capital since 1694. While it was designated in 1694, records show that it didn't become operational until all the government's records and operations were moved from the former Province of Maryland's former capital, Saint Mary's City (1634 - 1695) until March of 1695; when all state operations began because of the distance to get to Saint Mary's City being a bit unreasonable for most. Just a little history there from a Marylander who loves the history of this state a little too much.
You are ascribing a level of competence to Amtrak and MDOT that just doesn't exist, even provided the funding could be found. There was a fairly active movement to extend the Orange Line to Bowie along Rt 50 in the early 1980s, but the competing shorter Blue Line extension to Largo won instead.
There is so little room to run a train in Severna Park. It'd requir a lot of land acquisition. And tunnel under the Chesapeake is something that isn't favored for environmental reasons.
I’m in favor of Marc. It’s more suitable for longer distances and they can build a line from dc to ocean city and from Baltimore to ocean city via both Annapolis and the eastern shore and Calvert county. Also a line could be built from Baltimore to western md via Frederick
Absolutely crazy you didn’t include an option to reactivate the B,W,A line from Annapolis Junction - you could run trains from the Camden line (either from DC or Baltimore) to Annapolis.
What's wrong with LRT on the old WB&A track from Annapolis to Odenton, with timed transfers to MARC's Penn Line? That has to be the least expensive rail option.
@pacificostudios Least expensive, maybe, but also the least ridership by far, since people going to DC are forced into a two-seat ride at minimum, and a circuitious route by comparison (worse than my Silver/Blue line idea) and unless that line goes even further, the ridership would be disappointing, and it's hard to say where else it could go.
@@SteveGettingAroundPhilly - An Annapolis LRT could be seen as a regional economic development project with TOD redevelopment all along it. It's easy to overestimate the importance of "through-line" travel. Remember that travel demand decreases by the square of travel time. Orange County has nearly finished a streetcar line on a former Pacific Electric route, and it's purpose is clearly local. Even through the West Santa Ana Branch runs all the way to Los Angeles, a connection to the LA Metro rail system is decades away. People bound for L.A. will have to transfer to Metrolink/Amtrak in Santa Ana.
id love for this to happen but it would take so much work because the stigma of public transit bringing crime and such is common in the md suburbs and with the wealthy population in severna park, and bowie, the opposition might be successful in striking down any proposals. but i hope that this one day happens.
I endorse this highly, although I think you could maybe also consider structuring it as a spur rather than a full diversion and doing the proposed Baltimore light rail extension if that makes NEC operations easier.Also I think a station adjacent to the State HOuse is less of a political lift than you might think-it could be a bit of a NIMBY magnet but you could counterbalance that by arguing that it would make the station more useful for accessing the major state office buildings and court. Given that non-old-city Annapolis is pretty car dependent it may be more expedient to focus on proximity to state office use. One other point I think-IME there really aren't a lot of good nodes for TOD along route 50 except at like Parole maybe, the big TOD opportunities are largely the smaller legacy cities and towns along the Penn and (especially) the Camden Lines-Hyattsville and College Park already have substantial infill, and Laurel and Bowie would be good candidates for that in a world with good commuter rail. So I think it may be more useful to think of a DC-Annapolis line as a quasi-express that trades off local service for frequent service to a New Carrollton transfer point. I will however note that Anne Arundel is (cautiously) starting to embrace TOD and density.
Sounds like the former reading westrenton to Newark they're response is that they get High speed from west trenton towards Newark that's crazy because the same line the is the septa R4 it isn't high speed and that's running
The metro proposals won't really work imo. Metro is not a regional rail. It should only connect a city to itself, not a city to other cities. Metro only works with high demand, high frequency, and low distances because metros are pretty slow (even the DC Metro averages only around 30 mph!) and expensive to build. Their main advantage is high frequency and capacity. We don't need that kind of capacity for this. We need speed. Having travelled all over the world and riding many rail systems, I think the solution is really clear. Electrified normal intercity/regional trains that are run by MARC or Amtrak (probably MARC) that run once an hour minimum but preferably every 30 minutes. You can also extend it to Ocean City or Rehoboth Beach or to Baltimore/Wilmington too, but we can start small at just a DC to Annapolis connection. It can even be single tracked. Enough capacity, high speed, low cost.
Sounds good but Maryland is facing a massive budget deficit of $ 3 Billion. Maryland is the only regional state that has a deficit while Va. Pa, and Del all have budget surplus. Keep dreaming.
12:42 u rlly need to unadopt these American naming conventions. These names and the slashes are too long. "Arnold Winchester-On-The-Severn Station" is a piss take. Just say Winchester station. It's that say. No slashes and no abbreviations that nobody from outside the area will understand.
lol.. the good people of Annapolis don’t want anyone who depends on transit to have an easy way to get to Annapolis. Even though the light rail extension would be the best idea. The major issue with that is that the light rail isn’t profitable. But extending subway stations to Anne Arundel county is an automatic no, because of “elemental” reasons. And even though people might commute to and from Annapolis, not enough to justify the cost will be the story that will be told.
This video illustrates one of the worst biases in DC regional planning discourse: the idea that WMATA has to do everything. If you don't think MTAMD or VADRPT are capable of building rail lines, then explicitly say so up front, rather than burying that idea beneath 20 minutes of Metro crayoning, some tangential "Purple Line is bad because it isn't WMATA" talking points, and then calling an NEC extension "so crazy it might work." Don't assume your audience is that naive. Just make the argument for why building new lines for MARC is a good idea.
@jmchristoph Honestly, pretty good point. The main reason I describe the NEC diversion as such is largely because I get the sense that a lot of people would accept the idea of WMATA running it, since it is what a lot of people were used to, and warm them up to the idea that there is a different way it can work, which is through MARC and Amtrak, which I've always gotten the sense that most people would pass off as not being serious since they don't see MARC as a serious alternative to Metro except along the Penn Line. Seeing what Virginia is doing with their plans and ROW acquisition in recent years, we see what is possible, but in the here and now, MARC and VRE are nowhere near their potential, and I think most people don't even know what that potential is. Both of those networks are topics I definitely am going to do videos on in the future, but that's the perspective I'm getting admittedly as someone from out of town, but people needed to be reminded that MARC can actually be good if it were given the opportunities that Metro did.
@SteveGettingAroundPhilly here's the fundamental problem with that assumption: WMATA being forced to do everything because "people are used to it" is *completely* unsustainable when WMATA doesn't even have guaranteed funding year-to-year. WMATA expansion is *decades* behind where it should be because nobody wants to pay for it yet the suburban counties & edge cities all expect it to be able to run the kind of service that can only be justified in the core of DC. We still don't have any viable plan to build the lines under M St NW or Columbia Pike, which have been proposed for *decades*, let alone anything to places like Adams Morgan or Logan Circle which actually need the capacity a Metro line could provide. Meanwhile, the Silver Line Phase II is the costliest section of the network to run, yet generates the least ridership per mile. If your advocacy around WMATA isn't directly challenging the unsustainable demand to build more extensions like the Silver Line, then it's doing a disservice to the people you're advocating toward.
@jmchristoph Something I'll definitely consider when I actually advocate for this sort of stuff directly, for sure. This case I describe as more of a rough thought experiment of what such a thing may look like, but my advocacy would for the time being mostly centered around my home city of Philadelphia, as well as for public transport and rail in general, but if I seriously advocate for this stuff around the DMV down the line, I'd obviously have to be more intimately familiar with the realities on the ground, and these assumptions about WMATA are definitely one of the big ones. In all honestly, thanks for that. It's great to learn some of the challenges (physical, financial and political) that there is with making each idea a reality, especially for a place I'm really only starting to be more familiar with.
I noticed a potential error in your video at timestamp 31:41. The Corridor segment between CARROLL interlocking and BOWIE interlocking has always been three tracks wide, with only the occasional segment of four tracks in place for customer sidings. The PRR electrification project specifically built the catenary and transmission line supports far enough away from the track bed to ensure that there would be room for four tracks with sufficient horizontal clearance; the intent was to avoid having to move the supports when the fourth track was eventually installed. The original Baltimore and Potomac line was double track; I don’t know when it was widened to three tracks. The purported signal that you pointed out in the video is the southbound automatic running signal for Track 3 and would be used by non-ACSES trains approaching CARROLL interlocking from the north. Track 3 is the main southbound running line for Amtrak and MARC services. Track 2 is in the middle and Track 1 is on the right side of the track bed. PRR (and Amtrak) have always installed their automatic signals in the manner shown here and I don’t know all of the reasons why.
Former AACO resident here. The Orange Line proposal you discussed is the most viable. The schedules on MARC’s existing services are so bad that it makes them useless on evenings, weekends, and off-peak times. WMATA could at least run consistent frequency. A light rail extension down the Broadneck peninsula would face stiff political headwinds from the affluent residents there, but could at least be feasible, despite MDOT’s incompetence. The heavy rail loop idea is preposterous. The political will isn’t there. The corridor along 100 is densely populated and includes a hospital and three schools. Never gonna happen.
Don’t need it. Don’t want it. It used to have a rail connection, long since gone. There isn’t enough population or density to support it. There once was a right of way to extend the Orange line from New Carrollton to Bowie. That’s been all sold off because it wasn’t practical. These are suburban areas where it’s just not wanted. We don’t want a Hunt Valley situation. Traffic on 50 is nothing (drive it every day). These plans will cost BILLIONS to serve like 5 people. They already can’t take care of what they have, the State and WMATA are broke, both the Purple and Silver lines are both huge boondoggles, and after COVID, the ridership just isn’t there. Another thing to consider, a vast quantity of people who live in Annapolis aren’t going to DC or Baltimore to work, but to areas all over the DMV like Columbia, Greenbelt, Silver Spring and other places where these connections will be useless. They also tend to be upper middle class to wealthy..they ain’t taking Metro or Light Rail.
The most realistic part of this proposal is immediately assuming planners would reject a previously-used right of way for, you know, reasons.
@@jonathanstensberg I wish it were that easy, but considering that the old rights of way (aside from the Baltimore and Annapolis trail) are well and truly gone, both either covered in suburban sprawl or sunk into the bushes, the old rights of way would be much harder to work with than the current trendy idea of highway ROW running to save money.
@@SteveGettingAroundPhilly The ROW from Odenton to Annapolis is mostly still there. The biggest problem is the Parole Mall, but you're already planning to tunnel from Parole anyway. You'd have NIMBY problems building tracks next to Generals Hwy and some backstreets, but it's doable. With just 12 miles of tracks, you'd have a spur from the NEC to Parole for pretty cheap, enabling both DC-"Annapolis" and Baltimore-"Annapolis" MARC services on a small budget. A little more money to get into actual Annapolis, and Loew's Access Rd gets you within a couple blocks of the statehouse.
The real reason not to use this ROW is that DC-Annapolis via Odenton is a very inefficient routing, likely adding 15 minutes of travel time compared to a US-50 routing. And considering a US-50 routing should do the run in 30-45 minutes (depending on stops and design speeds), that's a huge difference.
BUILD THAT SHIT TO THE EASTERN SHORE!
“Since light rail can’t run on metro tracks and vice versa.”
*laughs in Cleveland*
@@jonathanstensberg There's always exceptions to everything it seems... for now anyway, since Cleveland is apparently ditching the heavy rail stuff soon. *Sad noises*
Oslo is even better, as there they run third-rail metro and overhead-powered trams together.
@@SteveGettingAroundPhilly WHY WHY THE FUCK WOUDL THEY DO THAT THEY HAVE SUCH A NICE QUASI INTERURBAN.
@SteveGettingAroundPhilly it's incredibly sad. Pathetic even
@@douglasgraebner1831 It isn't as bad as it reads from Steve's post. What actually happens is that the Red, Blue and Green Line will have a unified rolling stock instead of running separate type of trains for each line (and really, the Red Line already skirted around the definition of heavy vs. light rail, compare LA Metro Line C which touches this distinction from the other direction).
THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS VIDEO! I used to go to school in Annapolis and I've been thinking this connection was being slept on for YEARS, from the former B&A interurban line that's been largely forgotten somehow to the current bus services between Baltimore and Annapolis that CANNOT keep up with demand. More people should be talking about this!!!
Before we even think about any of these proposals, the Key Bridge needs to be rebuilt.
Awesome! I hope you win. As someone who needs to go from DC to Annapolis frequently, I'm a fan of your plan.
coming from someone from Annapolis I’ve been looking for a video like this for like a fucking year
Crofton mention 🗣️
Great vid. I want more transit here
Originally from Baltimore and back in the 90's they thought about running the Light Rail all the way to Annapolis on the old B and A right of way, but nimby's killed it.
Totally should ask LucidStew to do a video on option #3, unless you want to see how much this will cost.
LucidStew will do a rough cost estimate as he does in all the other videos
Ocean City Resident here: I wholly support an Amtrak to Salisbury. People would no doubt use it. I know I would. Currently the only public transportation that works is a BayRunner Shuttle. Actually semi-private. But it's overpriced AF.
20:12 "Directing a line that's mainly north-south oriented to suddenly split off to the east"
Cries in LA Metro A Line
@@sdsd4139 Just LA Metro Things. I mean, at least they built it...
Here's my thoughts on proposals 1 and 2. If they extend the Metro from Largo or New Carrollton, I think it would make more sense if there was a forced transfer there, with the new lines running from either station to Annapolis. Would mean that any backups on the (maybe at some point) Orange/Silver tunnel don't affect the line out to Annapolis. It would also just make the line too long, and could maybe order 4-car trains just for that line, since you likely wouldn't need the capacity that would come with a regular DC Metro train. And if you need say, 6-car trains, then allowing for the platforms to be lengthened up to 6-cars, without needing to tear down the tracks, could be done when the line is being built
22:42 the issues with the Purple Line and Red Line have less to do with MDOT/MTA and more to do with the bungling by the previous governor’s administration. The Red Line has a ballooned budget now only because it was originally cancelled in 2015 and had to be brought back to life.
It was never budgeted properly in the first place. Let’s not forget the dozens of lawsuits for things like environmentalists to property owners. That delayed things years. Then there were route issues. Contract issues. It wasn’t the last Governor, it was the incompetence of the state.
The long-range plan should connect the NEC to the Atlantic coast. Ocean City MD needs rail service; Annapolis should be a stop on the way. Similar to how Amtrak has spurs to Norfolk and Newport News from the main east-coast north-south line, or how NJT connects Philly to Atlantic City. Connecting Annapolis to Baltimore is preferred to DC, since you could then continue north to Harrisburg via York.
Ocean City will be underwater long before a rail line could be built.
With little adjustments to curves for a little more money, they could make the Annapolis rail link 186 mph capable and be part of a hs2 style rail system for the northeast corridor like what lucid stew envisioned. If you remember, even in high speed areas of the nec, northeast regionals and even commuter systems like mbta and nj transit run their trains on the same tracks.
Great and nicely made video! Appreciate your thoughts! ☀😎 👍
Fantastic video idea. Unique, interesting, and thorough.
FWIW, residents in Anne Arundel County are the reason why the Baltimore Metro Subway exists in its current form.
Mind you this was in the '70s so attitudes may have changed but I do believe there would be a lot of apprehension with extending Metro to Annapolis, be it from pearl clutchers and NIMBYS.
There is a lot of wealth and influence in that part of Anne Arundel County and they would definitely fight tooth and nail to not see it be built
I think the best would be following the old right of way and the poplar trail with the Annapolis station being at Westgate circle and stops being at Parole/Annapolis Mall and crownsville before meeting up with the Northeast corridor at Odenton
I think that you have the best solution but spending three times as much money and causing three times the trouble is appealing to so many people.
I really agree with extending the light rail to Annapolis, but I feel like the line between DC and Annapolis should be a different line to achieve faster speeds and to keep from delays so far from DC cascading along the entire line. I think it should be a different service alla nhsl.
I also think mdot should look into building the old wb&a line between Baltimore and DC as a freight only bypass to allow the Camden line to be passenger only to allow for higher speeds
wow WHAT some serious information and I wish this could come into play and make it happen
The old Baltimore & Annapolis corridor is still intact from where it used to cross below Rt. 50 to the location of the old Severn River trestle swing bridge, then all the way to College Creek along the north side of Rowe Blvd. That's far and away the best route by a huge margin into Annapolis from the north. Replacing the old trestle with another bridge (exactly the same way that the old Rt. 450 low level drawbridge was replaced by a new high level roadway bridge) is the only way into town that makes any sense. With the insanely ruinous cost for tunneling, and the also insane cost for right of way acquisition via eminent domain and condemnation in the extremely expensive Annapolis real estate environment, using as much as possible of the splendid former B&A right of way that the state of Maryland so carefully preserved for exactly this reason is probably the only way that passenger rail service has any chance of ever reaching Annapolis again from the north. Speaking of historic rights of way, the original alignment of the old Annapolis and Elk Ridge Railroad (later part of the Washington, Baltimore, and Annapolis interurban line) is also intact from Rt. 50 via Defense Street and the north side of West Street, until it diverges into what's now a utility corridor carrying power lines, which then becomes Poplar Avenue and finally Loew's Access Road, until it runs right into the back of the old Annapolis train station location now occupied by the Anne Arundel County Department of Social Services. That old train station was also used by the old Baltimore and Annapolis line, which leads to this final and highly fortunate aspect of using intact former rail corridors. The alignments I've mentioned above could be used again with a combination of efficient surface running and reasonably affordable elevated structures. The only thing be needed to link the old route into Annapolis from the west with the old route into Annapolis from the north is less than a half mile of new alignment. In the context of lovely and historic downtown Annapolis blocks west of Church Circle, where the new station would replace the Social Services Dept. building, it would be cheaper but also quite ugly and obtrusive to build an elevated link, while vastly more expensive yet far less obtrusive to build a tunnel link. Either the elevated structure or the tunnel would leave the old WB&A surface alignment where necessary along the Loew's Access Road, then return to the old B&A surface alignment where necessary west of College Creek. What I've laid out here is a perfect fit in detail for the local Annapolis layout that would perfectly fit with the author's extremely sensible "Proposal 3" which seems to be the nest or his ideas. Looking closely at Google Maps while reading my details will show how sensible this arrangement would be within Annapolis, which I've in mind since first becoming interested in railroad history while also enjoying many happy times time at a college friend's family home on the Severn in the Wardour neighborhood during the 1980's.
All I know is The Purple Line from MDOT MTA is going to run from Montgomery County MD to Prince George’s County MD & connect to The Green, Red & Yellow Lines. As well as Amtrak & MARC.
DMV Guy Here - Let me preface by saying any transit is better than what there is now. Which is nothing. Even BRT is better than a no build alternative.
However, I really dislike the Washington Metro going outside the first or second right suburbs outside the beltway. Metro is not for connecting cities, imo. This goes for the Silver Line too - It should have been a VRE line. I love the idea of having a NEC or MARC connection to Annapolis. MARC is already really fast. Metro is a very fast metro, but MARC is very fast commuter rail. I commented something similar on (I think) Dan's submission to Richmond. I want to see VRE and MARC become regional rail that connects the area. I have zero trust in MDOT's ability to acquire right of way, but if VRPA can do it so can they!
Edit - shouldve waited until the very end, you mentioned dan's video
I think the MARC option would be the best! As for Rolling Stock, they should go with the Stadler KISS units.
Very thought provoking video, as someone who's lived in the DMV their whole life this would be a massive almost megaproject. This is indeed, a modest proposal that would be crazy to see. I don't know exactly how you would calculate this, but I'd be interesting to see the differences. WMATA is looking to cover more of the dense parts of the DMV (DC, Arlington, and parts of PGC) with a new metro line to alleviate the BOS and provide a more northward crosstown service rather then more stuff into the exurbs but its interesting nonetheless.
Thanks Sammy! I definitely like a lot of the ideas that WMATA has for the future, even if it is a long way away from seeing it happen, and this was definitely an interesting thought experiment for me to get out there. I do like a lot of WMATA's ideas for the future, and the Blue Line Loop at least shows they want to see expansion in underserved parts of the region with crowded bus corridors, so they got a lot of good ideas, but I was also keen to show that the commuter rails (both MARC and VRE, but especially MARC since at least VRE is likely to get massive improvements down the line with ROW buyouts and improved infrastructure) deserves more love than they get, and that if Maryland was serious about expanding MARC, this is definitely one thing to think of on their part. Having MARC service run as fast as Brightline on the regular, and not just with their unreliable HHP-8s would immediately make an impact to me, especially on a run to Annapolis like this.
It was definitely a lot of fun to think about this, and go around filming, and I'll definitely be back soon for more!
Us DC Metro employees just got a memo about trains returning to design speed in certain sections, i.e., running at 75 mph where the geography allows. This is to start in the new year, so soon. The goal is to make the trains run faster so passengers have shorter transit times, always a plus.
A lot to unpack here but several good points. However... MARC bought diesels because not only were they cheap (and at the time, the SC-44's were replacing the AEM-7s), they don't have enough engines to service the CSX-held Brunswick and Camden in addition to the Penn lines. Many trains off the Brunswick line do a few stints up and down the Penn line before going back to Brunswick. So they need the operational flexibility.
That said, restoring the Mount Claire Connector between the Penn and Camden Lines would not only allow MARC to continue to run diesels into Camden Yards, but also access it's Riverside repair yard much easier. Thus, Annapolis-DC service *could* be diesel to a point. This would require the line to run exclusively on MD 50 until it got close... but then, if you did an initial termination at Riva Road (and the park & ride there), you'd get some starting cash because you can offload Commuter Bus to the train.
Overall, you plan jives with mine: New MARC line. If it goes electric with EMUs? Even better.
Currently, there are several studies/proposals for building a new Chesapeake Bay Bridge. While building a new bridge, put a set of tracks in the middle and connect the Delmarva peninsula. Service could start in Wilmington and pass through Dover Delaware and have connecting service to points south. This line could relieve some of the congestion on the NEC!
Good video. I think trains should go back to Annapolis. I’ve been saying this a lot. They want to replace the current bay bridges. Something should connect the Eastern shore. Extending the light rail from glen burnout sounds like it would be the easier option. But Marc service from BWI would be nice. Have it go across the new bridge. It could connect back to the NEC in Elkton or Newark.
I think the reason Marc doesn’t have new electric locomotives is Amtrak stopped servicing them.
And here I was thinking the Tappan Zee Bridge freaked people out? Great video. Steve! Never been to Annapolis but if there was a train there I’d love to go! Also the idea of a semi-back up line in lieu of NEC isn’t the worst idea.
There are provision on the east end of the Largo Metrorail station to allow the extension of the Blue line to the east. The elevated beyond east end of the station were built with provision for future junction turnouts that diverge to the left of the tail tracks that are clearly visible at 10:22 The tali track tunnels descend to a depth deep enough to allow the eastward extension to be in subway turning to the east under Medical Center Drive.
Those tracks go to an underground service area located north of the station near the County Office Complex along Lottsford Road.
@@porcelainthunder2213 I know about the location of the tail track as I toured them several times during there construction. They are under the properties on the west side Lottsford Road. Prince George's County had WMATA place them underground to allow future developments to be built on the surface above them.
The location of the provision for the future turnouts will allow the extension of Blue line to entering tunnel portals north the of tail track portals allowing the extension to pass over the tail track tunnel.
I have also been thinking about how to bring rail service to Annapolis too. It may be a video on my channel at some point!
Of the bunch, I definitely liked your last proposal the best. I’m also biased because my current thoughts tend to focus on considering MARC to Annapolis from DC and/or Baltimore. I’m in the contest too, but I wouldn’t even be mad if I lost to you, for this was a fun video to watch.
I’ll join your Discord soon!
@@RallyingforRail Love to have you on there! I've enjoyed a few of your videos and definitely would love to see more. Whenever you want to chat about it, the discord is open!
@@SteveGettingAroundPhilly Another idea for the Northeast Corridor branches is have it go from the DelMrVa Peninsula into New Jersey such as Cape May heading for New York City
The most viable option is a Metro extension from New Carrolton to Annapolis / Parole. I doubt real estate would be available in downtown Annapolis - anything downtown would need to be totally underground. Perhaps a light rail connection to Glen Burnie / BWI could be a second phase using the WB&A ROW, but the connection to DC is the priority. No bridging over the Severn River to connect the two lines, but a "union station" at the old naval station industrial site could be built.
Came here to say this about the orange line, why Metro has not done this is a mystery. 50 has enough space to accommodate a Metro line in the median
I'm curious about your thoughts on extending MARC service to Hagerstown, Cumberland, and other points in Western Maryland. I think what this would really need is running a new MARC line along I-70 from Baltimore.
wow I also have family in the area and made a plan to connect annapolis by rail, my idea was a high floor light rail system with 2 lines that connects to bwi station
3:43 Annapolis WISHES it was Newport
If a station of any sort was built at Six flags, they would Bulldoze that theme park so quickly, cash out, and develop it into high density.
The Chesapeake Bay Bridge should be rebuilt as a three tube tunnel. Two for road traffic, one for rail. That would be much safer than a better use for all. Also potentially hazardous freight rail could bypass the major cities.
Would love to see a two part train start in DC and Baltimore, combine in Annapolis, and then run the eastern shore, preferably following route 50, but straight across to Delaware, then down the existing line and then east to Ocean City would be great too.
Hell yes
I agree with the idea of WMATA extending the Blue/Silver from Largo Town Center to Annapolis being ideally the least favorite. The costs to extend the system would be far astronomical than the State of Maryland could even fathom. So, that's out. The second option being the extension of the MTA Light Rail sounds slightly more doable, but still runs into TONS of problems. Namely the NIMBY crowd that went down screaming during the Purple Line talks. The costs would be slightly more manageable than deep boring tunnels under soft grounds, especially nearest the watershed that is Annapolis. The idea of extending the Orange Line sounds like it would be far cheaper than the Blue/Silver extension with more at grade or elevated options along the Hanson Highway. MY idea would be to branch off the Penn Line via MARC utilizing the defunct trackage seen between Bowie State and Odenton. I honestly think THAT would be immensely cheaper to clear out an existing track bed of overgrowth, and planning to extend from where the tracks ended along that line. Tying into the Penn Line/Northeast Corridor would allow for slightly faster connection times, as well as laying the groundwork for frequencies between Odenton and Annapolis with Odenton being the originating and terminating point for that line extension to keep MARC's rolling stock moving in between the NEC/Penn Line runs as it does with the variations between Baltimore-Penn, Martin State (weekends) and Perryville (Rush Service). What do you think? (A side note for the Annapolis Extension from the Penn Line: I would very much rather keep a lot of the stations above ground via the Park and Ride lots to simplify and keep costs lower. Another thing to note is that MARC utilizes the push-pull service, which would be far more beneficial than making a throughway via your proposed diversion via tunnels. I have a strong feeling Amtrak would resist the idea based on the fact that they will push for customer appreciation, thus dumping this particular problem on MTA/MARC. Same goes for ideas for expanding their Brunswick Line to include Hagerstown via Frederick et al. We just can't win as commuters, can we?)
Metro's should not be used for intercity trips. Light rail is way worse and simply is not a viable solution Baltimore to Annapolis. Love your point on New Carrolton as a great transit hub, I think a Marc electrified spur line from New Carrollton down route 50 is best, cheaper, higher top speed and wide station spacing better served, more comfortable for long distance, can single track at points and have direct service to downtown DC and Baltimore.
I had the idea if we do a branch from BWI via a new station directly at the airport vs the existing one for MARC Delaware short-turns and Annapolis service. I never saw Amtrak using it, just regional rail (which would be RER style, including a new-build branch to Waldorf connecting to the Fredericksburg line, in addition to all day frequent service to Woodbridge/Quantico and Manassas in the south and BWI/Glen Burnie, Germantown/Clarksville, and Baltimore Penn in the north). I guess connecting to the Peninsula would change that with stops at Centerville and Middleton in between Wilmington (just need to add a connection before Newark DE) and Annapolis (and likely Bowie too)
Why not a MARC line into Camden Station Baltimore and perhaps continuing to Penn Station Baltimore through the old Mount Royal Station? That would supplement what you propose for the NEC and help revitalize Baltimore center.
@EdwardM-t8p That's definitely its own discussion in its own right, and it will definitely be something I touch on in the future. The big problem there is the same problem that hampers the current Camden Line service from DC to Baltimote Camden, which is that it's owned by CSX, and is a very busy freight corridor, and running it through to Penn Station (which I assume means using either the current Howard Street Tunnel or a new tunnel) will either be hard to work with regarding needing to share with a lot of passenger trains and an equally high number of freight trains currently, or equally as expensive as what I propose here in the current situation with ROW buyouts and expansion of capacity (the latter all but guaranteeing the need for a second downtown tunnel from Camden to Penn).
That's my take on the situation for now, but I definitely need to research it further. I'd love to see the Camden Line reach its full potential, but it's going to be a tricky sell with the NEC being actively worked on and CSX owning the line to Camden all but requires Maryland buying out the tracks like Virginia is doing south of DC to Richmond as a set to making these improvements happen, and the politics of that are a tricky affair that I'm not sure if Maryland is ready for or not. I'd love to be proven wrong on that point though.
A connection to Annapolis is such an obvious thing that it drive me absolutely nuts there isn't one. And nothing to the DelMarVa beaches? Insane. Route 1 along the coast should have at the very least a light rail, but it barely even has a bus. Lord knows there's enough room for it on the massively overbuilt highway. But you know. Just one more lane will fix it, bro.
the srevice should be called the marylander and gofro trough baltimore and the west to frederick and hagerstown. connecting all the major cities is maryland and maybe even get longer distace exprees going to nyc and paring it with rthe existing albany a ending trains.
This November I went to visit one of my relatives who lives in Annapolis. Would've been nice to take a train all the way there, instead of being picked up in a car at BWI Airport Station.
It wouldn’t be quite as good for intercity connectivity outside of MD, but I’ve always liked the thought of an electrified rail line between Columbia and Annapolis through Odenton, which could connect directly to both the NEC and the CSX mainline. You could then have services originating in annapolis or columbia that go to baltimore or dc, as well as direct service between annapolis and columbia. I’m def biased cuz I often travel to Columbia and it’s frustrating that there’s basically no way to get there by transit, but I think the project could be done for pretty cheap by following the right of way of MD state route 32 for most of the route.
Next lets talk about getting some rail down here to Southern MD,......yeah I know that is never going to happen
Me and a friend have been designing a system for annapolis and we thought to baltimore it would be separate from the light rail. However it would share trackage with it from glen burnie until just before camden yards where it would go into the csx tunnel and act like the tunnel in philly. The trains would be similar to those on the south shore line in indiana
What are the distances and estimated costs?
2:57 in, there's a claim that Annapolis was the state Capital since 1694. While it was designated in 1694, records show that it didn't become operational until all the government's records and operations were moved from the former Province of Maryland's former capital, Saint Mary's City (1634 - 1695) until March of 1695; when all state operations began because of the distance to get to Saint Mary's City being a bit unreasonable for most. Just a little history there from a Marylander who loves the history of this state a little too much.
You are ascribing a level of competence to Amtrak and MDOT that just doesn't exist, even provided the funding could be found. There was a fairly active movement to extend the Orange Line to Bowie along Rt 50 in the early 1980s, but the competing shorter Blue Line extension to Largo won instead.
but what if we just add one more lane, bro?
@@DanHominem They give up when they're just one lane away from fixing traffic after all 😉
If you need MBTA footage in the future, feel free to hmu. I’d be happy to share some of mine with you til you can get some.
"Expansive, near state wide rail network of New Jersey Transit"... *Laughs in Atlantic City Line*
@tyler_dold Emphasis on the "Near". That will be its own video, don't worry. I got a LOOOOT to sat about South Jersey rail.
@@SteveGettingAroundPhilly Looking forward to that video!!
So goot transportaion is dead on delivery all the way to the customer?
meanwhile the king of prussia rail line where i am is completely ruled out
There is so little room to run a train in Severna Park. It'd requir a lot of land acquisition. And tunnel under the Chesapeake is something that isn't favored for environmental reasons.
A bunch of NIMBYs in Philadelphia got arrested recently for protesting at City Hall.
I’m in favor of Marc. It’s more suitable for longer distances and they can build a line from dc to ocean city and from Baltimore to ocean city via both Annapolis and the eastern shore and Calvert county. Also a line could be built from Baltimore to western md via Frederick
all these new lines need more train maitence centers.
So Jobs big plus
Brilliant. 301 is a mess
Proposal 3 love it with planig i like the idea
Absolutely crazy you didn’t include an option to reactivate the B,W,A line from Annapolis Junction - you could run trains from the Camden line (either from DC or Baltimore) to Annapolis.
What's wrong with LRT on the old WB&A track from Annapolis to Odenton, with timed transfers to MARC's Penn Line? That has to be the least expensive rail option.
@pacificostudios Least expensive, maybe, but also the least ridership by far, since people going to DC are forced into a two-seat ride at minimum, and a circuitious route by comparison (worse than my Silver/Blue line idea) and unless that line goes even further, the ridership would be disappointing, and it's hard to say where else it could go.
@@SteveGettingAroundPhilly - An Annapolis LRT could be seen as a regional economic development project with TOD redevelopment all along it. It's easy to overestimate the importance of "through-line" travel. Remember that travel demand decreases by the square of travel time.
Orange County has nearly finished a streetcar line on a former Pacific Electric route, and it's purpose is clearly local. Even through the West Santa Ana Branch runs all the way to Los Angeles, a connection to the LA Metro rail system is decades away. People bound for L.A. will have to transfer to Metrolink/Amtrak in Santa Ana.
id love for this to happen but it would take so much work because the stigma of public transit bringing crime and such is common in the md suburbs and with the wealthy population in severna park, and bowie, the opposition might be successful in striking down any proposals. but i hope that this one day happens.
How about a rail line connecting Annapolis, MD, to Washington, DC, and Baltimore?
@@adambuesser6264Precisely.
I endorse this highly, although I think you could maybe also consider structuring it as a spur rather than a full diversion and doing the proposed Baltimore light rail extension if that makes NEC operations easier.Also I think a station adjacent to the State HOuse is less of a political lift than you might think-it could be a bit of a NIMBY magnet but you could counterbalance that by arguing that it would make the station more useful for accessing the major state office buildings and court. Given that non-old-city Annapolis is pretty car dependent it may be more expedient to focus on proximity to state office use. One other point I think-IME there really aren't a lot of good nodes for TOD along route 50 except at like Parole maybe, the big TOD opportunities are largely the smaller legacy cities and towns along the Penn and (especially) the Camden Lines-Hyattsville and College Park already have substantial infill, and Laurel and Bowie would be good candidates for that in a world with good commuter rail. So I think it may be more useful to think of a DC-Annapolis line as a quasi-express that trades off local service for frequent service to a New Carrollton transfer point. I will however note that Anne Arundel is (cautiously) starting to embrace TOD and density.
pair Anapolis dc services with the new S line services to Richomnd and extend it north up the palmyra peninusula rejoining the nec at Wilmington.
soryi ment the delmarva peninsula.
why were us railroads never recognized as as esecial serive providers that nod allways need to be profitable
10:35 Did you call Crain Highway "KAREN Highway"?!? 😂😂😂😂
Sounds like the former reading westrenton to Newark they're response is that they get High speed from west trenton towards Newark that's crazy because the same line the is the septa R4 it isn't high speed and that's running
maybe take the metro to six flags sothey can help pay for it.
The metro proposals won't really work imo. Metro is not a regional rail. It should only connect a city to itself, not a city to other cities. Metro only works with high demand, high frequency, and low distances because metros are pretty slow (even the DC Metro averages only around 30 mph!) and expensive to build. Their main advantage is high frequency and capacity. We don't need that kind of capacity for this. We need speed. Having travelled all over the world and riding many rail systems, I think the solution is really clear. Electrified normal intercity/regional trains that are run by MARC or Amtrak (probably MARC) that run once an hour minimum but preferably every 30 minutes. You can also extend it to Ocean City or Rehoboth Beach or to Baltimore/Wilmington too, but we can start small at just a DC to Annapolis connection. It can even be single tracked. Enough capacity, high speed, low cost.
8000-SERIES TRAIN MENTIONED‼️🗣️💥💯
Sounds good but Maryland is facing a massive budget deficit of $ 3 Billion. Maryland is the only regional state that has a deficit while Va. Pa, and Del all have budget surplus. Keep dreaming.
12:42 u rlly need to unadopt these American naming conventions. These names and the slashes are too long. "Arnold Winchester-On-The-Severn Station" is a piss take. Just say Winchester station. It's that say. No slashes and no abbreviations that nobody from outside the area will understand.
lol.. the good people of Annapolis don’t want anyone who depends on transit to have an easy way to get to Annapolis. Even though the light rail extension would be the best idea. The major issue with that is that the light rail isn’t profitable. But extending subway stations to Anne Arundel county is an automatic no, because of “elemental” reasons. And even though people might commute to and from Annapolis, not enough to justify the cost will be the story that will be told.
This video illustrates one of the worst biases in DC regional planning discourse: the idea that WMATA has to do everything.
If you don't think MTAMD or VADRPT are capable of building rail lines, then explicitly say so up front, rather than burying that idea beneath 20 minutes of Metro crayoning, some tangential "Purple Line is bad because it isn't WMATA" talking points, and then calling an NEC extension "so crazy it might work."
Don't assume your audience is that naive. Just make the argument for why building new lines for MARC is a good idea.
@jmchristoph Honestly, pretty good point. The main reason I describe the NEC diversion as such is largely because I get the sense that a lot of people would accept the idea of WMATA running it, since it is what a lot of people were used to, and warm them up to the idea that there is a different way it can work, which is through MARC and Amtrak, which I've always gotten the sense that most people would pass off as not being serious since they don't see MARC as a serious alternative to Metro except along the Penn Line. Seeing what Virginia is doing with their plans and ROW acquisition in recent years, we see what is possible, but in the here and now, MARC and VRE are nowhere near their potential, and I think most people don't even know what that potential is. Both of those networks are topics I definitely am going to do videos on in the future, but that's the perspective I'm getting admittedly as someone from out of town, but people needed to be reminded that MARC can actually be good if it were given the opportunities that Metro did.
@SteveGettingAroundPhilly here's the fundamental problem with that assumption:
WMATA being forced to do everything because "people are used to it" is *completely* unsustainable when WMATA doesn't even have guaranteed funding year-to-year. WMATA expansion is *decades* behind where it should be because nobody wants to pay for it yet the suburban counties & edge cities all expect it to be able to run the kind of service that can only be justified in the core of DC. We still don't have any viable plan to build the lines under M St NW or Columbia Pike, which have been proposed for *decades*, let alone anything to places like Adams Morgan or Logan Circle which actually need the capacity a Metro line could provide. Meanwhile, the Silver Line Phase II is the costliest section of the network to run, yet generates the least ridership per mile.
If your advocacy around WMATA isn't directly challenging the unsustainable demand to build more extensions like the Silver Line, then it's doing a disservice to the people you're advocating toward.
@jmchristoph Something I'll definitely consider when I actually advocate for this sort of stuff directly, for sure. This case I describe as more of a rough thought experiment of what such a thing may look like, but my advocacy would for the time being mostly centered around my home city of Philadelphia, as well as for public transport and rail in general, but if I seriously advocate for this stuff around the DMV down the line, I'd obviously have to be more intimately familiar with the realities on the ground, and these assumptions about WMATA are definitely one of the big ones.
In all honestly, thanks for that. It's great to learn some of the challenges (physical, financial and political) that there is with making each idea a reality, especially for a place I'm really only starting to be more familiar with.
I noticed a potential error in your video at timestamp 31:41. The Corridor segment between CARROLL interlocking and BOWIE interlocking has always been three tracks wide, with only the occasional segment of four tracks in place for customer sidings. The PRR electrification project specifically built the catenary and transmission line supports far enough away from the track bed to ensure that there would be room for four tracks with sufficient horizontal clearance; the intent was to avoid having to move the supports when the fourth track was eventually installed. The original Baltimore and Potomac line was double track; I don’t know when it was widened to three tracks.
The purported signal that you pointed out in the video is the southbound automatic running signal for Track 3 and would be used by non-ACSES trains approaching CARROLL interlocking from the north. Track 3 is the main southbound running line for Amtrak and MARC services. Track 2 is in the middle and Track 1 is on the right side of the track bed. PRR (and Amtrak) have always installed their automatic signals in the manner shown here and I don’t know all of the reasons why.
Former AACO resident here. The Orange Line proposal you discussed is the most viable. The schedules on MARC’s existing services are so bad that it makes them useless on evenings, weekends, and off-peak times. WMATA could at least run consistent frequency. A light rail extension down the Broadneck peninsula would face stiff political headwinds from the affluent residents there, but could at least be feasible, despite MDOT’s incompetence. The heavy rail loop idea is preposterous. The political will isn’t there. The corridor along 100 is densely populated and includes a hospital and three schools. Never gonna happen.
Don’t need it. Don’t want it. It used to have a rail connection, long since gone. There isn’t enough population or density to support it. There once was a right of way to extend the Orange line from New Carrollton to Bowie. That’s been all sold off because it wasn’t practical. These are suburban areas where it’s just not wanted. We don’t want a Hunt Valley situation. Traffic on 50 is nothing (drive it every day). These plans will cost BILLIONS to serve like 5 people. They already can’t take care of what they have, the State and WMATA are broke, both the Purple and Silver lines are both huge boondoggles, and after COVID, the ridership just isn’t there. Another thing to consider, a vast quantity of people who live in Annapolis aren’t going to DC or Baltimore to work, but to areas all over the DMV like Columbia, Greenbelt, Silver Spring and other places where these connections will be useless. They also tend to be upper middle class to wealthy..they ain’t taking Metro or Light Rail.