Vienna Valves, Perinet Valves, and the Valve Trombone
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.พ. 2015
- Take two - first upload had out of sync audio. Sorry!
I've acquired a valve trombone with Vienna valves, also known as pumpenvalves. I've taken this opportunity to talk at length about the vienna valve, how it is assembled, and how it compares various piston valves.
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I have been playing valve trombone for over 40 years. it is not an excuse for not learning slide. I learned to play slide trombone one summer in high school. On my own. Practicing every day. Often missing out on summer activities with my friends. Lazy my tuckus. I prefer the valve because I also have been a baritone horn/euphonium player for several more years than I have been playing trombone. I'm simply far more proficient with a valve trombone. Also the valve trombone has a more mellow tone than a tenor trombone. I find it more appropriate for many of the music styles I enjoy playing, such as ballad jazz standards.
Hi William, my comment about valve trombones is just me taking a dig. Please don't take it to heart.
Reasons for the valve trombone, historically speaking: (1) cavalry bands: one hand on the valves, other hand in the reins! (2) Italian opera house orchestra pits with limited space (3) they are traditionally used in the Sardana cobla ensemble in Catalonia (along with two C bass Flügelhorns).
A later reason these instruments were made was jazz music.
can someone please make a video of just this guy, but every time he says "metal"
Huh?
@@twoflyinghats meatull
mittel?
Very interesting. As a horn player I was aware of the Vienna Horn, but was never quite sure how its valve section functioned.
Very informative. I did not know how these valves worked!
Never apologize for owning a valve trombone. It is a completely legitimate instrument, the sneers of slide trombone purists notwithstanding. I actually prefer the sound of the valve trombone to that of the slide trombone, under most circumstances (I think it sounds clearer).
I like the valve trombone because it's something different and the skills can be transferred to learning baritone and eventually trumpet. I don't think it's better than a slide trombone, but it has a place in this world :)
Great job. Just found your stuff and I love it. Keep up the good work.
Vienna Sausages >> Vienna Valves.
Backwards man
69th like 😎
Thank You for doing this video. It was very interesting and also educational. I enjoyed it very much.
The opera orchestra's in Southern European country's in the 19th century all used valve trombone's. The valve system allows the player more agillity althow getting 'core' in the tone, this needed more study in tone-forming. This, of course of the narrow-boring of both the tenor- as well as the bass- valve trombone's. In the Italian opera orchestra's the bass foundation of brass section was supplied with 'Corno in Basso', later formed and renamed as 'C'mbasso, Cimbasso.
Aha Bluebells of Scotland. Very nice piece.
I like the percussive effect of the valves when he was playing blue bells lol
Well, I think you triggered all valve trombone players here😂
ToxicBar 93 are you a slide player?
Jr of course I am😂
I mean, is still has a place in a themed band of guys that all use trombones, but they're looking to make a track that would be hell to play with a slide, so they get someone to play a valve trombone and they stay true to their gimmick
But yeah, in a concert the valve trombone doesn't really have a place as there are more than enough brass players that can cover that range and tone with a more "conventional" design
All 3 of them
Trombone, baritone, and tuba player. Kind of agree with you. I have even had a superbone which had valve and slide. However, a push button defeats the advantage of the trombone, which is, if you have a good player, it is never out of tune and no lipping required for tuning. No push button trombone will ever be in tune, however, with bad player, well, never in tune! :P
steamboat75043 Would an electric tuning meter help with the tuning?Serious question.
@@danbytp No because all valved brass instruments inherently make compromises in tuning. It's why trumpet players often adjust their first and third valve tuning slides with rings and triggers on the fly: your first valve may lower the pitch by a whole tone perfectly, and your third may lower the pitch by a very tuneful minor third, but the combination will then be out of tune because each is tuned relative to the "open" length of the tube, not the new longer length resulting from pressing down another valve. Either they can be in tune together or they can be in tune separately. You have to make a compromise somewhere and some combinations or individual valves will be out of tune. It is this way for all non-compensating valved brass, except for the old cavalry trombones with six valves that are all used separately.
So usually we tune the third valve on a lot of instruments to be in tune when used with the first valve, and avoid using it alone as much as possible--we play the first and second together when we would need to play the third alone. When this isn't possible one must compensate with the lips and when necessary by adjusting the third or first valve tuning slide.
@@georgeparkins777 I was in my elementry,jr.high,sr.high school,and Coast Guard Recruit bands,so we didn't learn the things you just mentioned. Great stuff to know.Seems like it would make a big and positive difference.Thanks for the info!😄
@@danbytp Juan Tizol played this instrument
@@RockStarOscarStern634 Cool!
A valve trombone is used in jazz because someone playing a euphonium looks a little funky however a valve trombone blends in with the trombones
The valve trombone sounds like a euphonium
The Valve Trombone has been used by Juan Tizol
I got a valve trombone because I joined jazz the last minute and had no trombone experience but I do have a euphonium experience
I have two valve trombones, (both Getzen) and they generally do sound like a squeezed trumpet-trombone mixture. They can sound good for what they are, but I'm personally used to a size 0 bass trombone mouthpiece as opposed to the size 3/size 6 .400 bore mouthpieces I have, so I can't put as good a sound through them as when I primarily played a Conn 50h.
There are a number of dents in the tubing including a really bad one just before the final bend and the bell section. Is it possible that accounts for the poor tone?
My boyfriend plays in a brass band. He's primarily a trumpeter, but I suppose you could call the trombone his "second instrument". I showed him this video this morning. It's now almost 7PM, and he's still ranting. Lol. Totally agree with you, though. Valve trombones are definitely an excuse.
I acquired also a valve trombone about a month ago, a Millereau from Paris, constructed in the early 20th century. It's actually in very good shape and sounds also good, though different form a usual slide trombone, I guess also because it has a quite narrow bore and small bell. Interestingly, it has 4 valves instead of 3, but no way of compensation for when the 4th valve is used. And it is tuned in C instead of B flat! But I managed to get that more or less under control until Christmas, so I could play it during the church service (but not well enough to put it in a public video on TH-cam...), but that may also enable me to play euphonium or trumpet occasionally.
And well, the reactions of people were very different: in the classical scene, they tend to laugh about it (like: "it's not a real instrument"), but in the Big Band I play in (ordinary slide trombone), they liked the instrument.
Watching this as I'm playing Valve Trombone for a State Jazzz concert coming up.
;-;
+Girbot119 Long live Bob Brookmeyer! Best of luck for the concert.
good luck with that
+Kevin Hornbuckle Brookmeyer had one of the coolest sounds in Jazz... how can anybody be so dismissive of an instrument. his stuff with Clark Terry was superb.
I'll give it a listen. Thanks for the recommendation. Somebody was just was just mentioning Brookmeyer to me yesterday.
There's quite a bit with Terry. In his autobiography Terry really rates the collaboration, which speaks volumes of course. I also really like his stuff with Stan Getz. It just amazes me how somebody can entirely dismiss an instrument that clearly has its own qualities, especially in those kind of hands.
Actually a valve trombone is not an excuse, but a far more rationale design for a bass trumpet, considering how it is counterweighted much better. Also for the contrabass range (cimbasso) is quite useful, and provides a nice cylindrical contrast to the conical sound of the tuba.
I would rather play a baritone, but definitely the Vavle trombone is. WAY AWESOME
Sandwich Maker 10 the valve trombone is shameful, if you want to play trombone, us a slide
Hebrew Hulk if you're gonna play something in that range with valves play a baritone. The trombone is coveted for its ability to do all sorts of articulation with the slide, with valves is essentially just a cylindrically tubed baritone.
Hebrew Hulk The trombone shape? What does that even mean?
I enjoy that you are your own percussion section with that thing.
Wow, the tone really fails in the lower range. I can get WAAAYY better sounding pedal tones outta my trumpet then that vienna sausage horn
Vienna sausage! I love that. Valve trombones are such an excuse to be lame!
11:50 to hear it
thank you for this video. İt is very helpfull to understand how to work the valves system and differences b
etween different valves models.
I'm pretty sure that rather large crease in the tubing is doing bad things for resistance, and might even be indistinguishable in feel from misaligned valves. It might (or might not) be the source of the air leak as well. I had a horn that had had the lead pipe bent back and forth so many times that it was just riddled with micro-cracks. I used lacquer to seal them, but that's not a very long-lasting fix. It's good enough to tell if you've located the problem, though (better than tape).
As a cornet player that plays Valve trombone as well I would agree with your comment on it being a reason not to learn proper slide technique, at least for me. It does require the development of the ability to transpose from concert pitch in the base clef to Bb in the treble clef( 2 lines or spaces down and add 2 sharps to the key) As most of use trumpet/cornet players can sight transpose concert pitch to Bb in the treble clef already it's not that much of a task. The added benifit is that now you are doing, staff wise, what you need to do to transpose from Eb to Bb in the treble clef but you drop a sharp from the key insteed of adding 2. the simple fact, learned from doing this for two years is that playing below the staff(treble clef) just isn't as nice sounding on a VT compaired to a ST. A VT is something between a straightened out Baritone (Tenor For you Brits , Aussies, and Kewis) horn and a bass trumpet. There is a reason that the evolution of the Sackbut/trombone went from slide to valves and then back to slide. I would agree that it is not a real trombone but then I'm not a real trombone player but i'm good enough to regularly get called to sub in a swing band that I used to play with on VT. I can now play euphonium in a wind ensemble( yes I got one of those now) that has a full trumpet/cornet section, and play out of my brother's Eb real book when he calls a tune I don't have. This also allows me to talk smack to my twin brother who, while being a much better player than I, can only play Alto sax. In an evening playing with him I'll play Trumpet and valve trombone and sight transpose off of his Eb music and razz him for not being able to do the same. I have noticed that he has started to work on doubling on the clarinet and flute. Both much harder tasks. When he gets those down i'll lose one of my favorite pastimes.
dan morris0
Valve trombones are mostly jazz instruments. Some big band pieces, such as those composed by Duke Ellington, have a trombone part written for the vale trombone's unique tone.
great info, thanks a lot man!!
Valve trombones were the standart in the 19th century. The renaissance of slide trumpets came in the second half of the 19th century.
You explained the trumpet backwards... lol
Trumpet players, a new age has risen: The age of Valves.
First variation of Arthur Pryor's "Blue Bells of Scotland"...
Ambitious of the designer to select carpal tunnel over bothering to calibrate a paddle like every other Vienna valve ever made.
Fun fact: There are straight path piston valves. My 1929 Couesnon Tenor Cor (Cor-Alto) uses them, and I've seen them on their Euphoniums from the same era. Curiously, I've never seen a higher brass Couesnon horn with a similar valve block, so there must be some good reason why the idea lost favor if it's not on the money makers. Like most pistons, the open pathway is offset towards the side opposite of the slides (to make room for those paths), but is completely straight in the airway direction. They feel pretty good to me, but it's not like I have anything to make a fair comparison with.
Frankenstein Monster must have owned that vienna sausage horn because you can see a yuge dent at 12:57 where Frankenstein's neck bolts would have been located.
Frankenstein was the doctor, not the monster.
“Valve trombones are for weenies!”
-My band director 2019
In XIX-Century-Italy, Habsburg Empire and Iberian Peninsula valve trombones actually were much more popular than slide ones, expecially in opera houses (that's why authors such as Rossini often feature fast runs and passages which are quite easier then they are on a slide trombone). Nowadays' technique probably has advanced to the point valve trombones are redundant, but their sound and intonation still is characteristichal enough to justify their use in historically informed performances, even if not on period instruments.
Can you compare (by playing) how different the literature Verdi intended for valve trombone in contrast to slide trombone?
Probably not, unfortunately. I have never studied Verdi.
Hi! I was just wondering if you could pleaseeee do a video on a superbone! It's a valve trombone of sorts...it actually has a working slide
I'm slightly confounded. You say that the valve trombone is "an excuse for not learning the slide trombone," but it is not. It is a variant on the trombone that allows for crisper transitions between notes and more accuracy while retaining the same timbre. Through my experience, I have found that the valve trombone is a very reliable tool because it allows for faster playing while retaining accuracy and precision. I started out on the valve trombone two years ago (it was my first instrument) and I love everything about it. I recently picked up the slide trombone to compare them and I am quite enjoying it as well. I can see how they can be used in different scenarios (for example, I use the slide trombone for marching season and the valve for concert season; mainly because it requires less effort to play louder on the slide due to it having less tubing.) I found this video very informative. I did not know of any other type of valves apart from the perinet and rotary valves.
Hiss slide is the only real type of trombone get out of hear with your fake horn Hiss
Valves for concert?? That is more than just cheating. Thats basically just a bass trumpet
No. It really is an excuse. It's taking a trombone and removing the one thing that actually differentiates it. Horns cover the same range with valves (as do other brass instruments), so putting valves on a trombone is pointless
Federico Bolano Yes I play Mexican music in a band of 15 and we play fast Zapateados that are really fast and we have slides and valve trombones and 2-slides
2-valve players and valve players -me play the fast ones because the slides can’t but the slides do other things like raising pitches in the songs to change tone stuff like that.
Just play the baritone or euphonium
I wish it was in my collection, I also wish I had learned the Slide earlier, just trying now, due to the purchase of a Soprano Trombone on a whim ? Could we hear about repairing wear to conventional valves, and the leakage between ports tha occurs with age? Modern materials might make this a possibility. Like Teflon coating pistons in gasoline engines , or possible resurfacing worn slides. The older I get the more I resist , "the Dump that Olde Thing, buy a new one" voices in the world. Cheers OM. Best Horn videos to my opinion. Daryllynn.
I don't think any amount of "fine tuning" those valves will help all that much. In fact I have yet to hear a valve trombone that sounds any good to begin with.They all sound constricted to me. Barry Mosley, Bob Brookmeyer and others are really fine players but the sound is simply not to my taste. It could be a brass baritone if I wasn't told what it actually was. But there is no mistaking the sound of a slide trombone. On the other hand you do a splendid job of presenting the instrument and explaining the operation of the valves really well. Good job mate.
I noticed a lot of noise associated associated with the playing of this trombone (valve clicking). Is that internal, or would it be relieved with the addition of new felts on the valve stems?
I'm wondering if all those twists and turns add to the resistance felt when playing this, as I feel a definite difference between a normal trumpet and the convoluted tangle of small intestines that is my pocket trumpet...
Sounds quite a bit better in the upper register. Also I had no idea that this valve system existed. Were there trumpets and other normally valved brass instruments (as opposed to the trombone, which obviously normally has a slide) made using this system?
could that tight and restricted tone be coming from the kink in the metal at the start of the bell section?
What are you apologizing for, no matter what the instrument is ,all that matters is can you make it sing! I play straight trombone but i also love valve trombone!!!
Have you done anything on the Vienna horn?
NZ FOR THE WIN
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mom knew someone who was partially disabled, and so couldn't play the slide trombone. He had to play the valve trombone instead.
At least it doesn't have the tuning issues that the baritone sousaphone has. (I really don't know what else to call it)
When I was a kid I played a Wurlitzer VT in a combo. It was awful - stuffy and weak. Later I played a decent Conn VT and now have a Getzen. Nothing will ever beat a slide bone for openness, but a VT can work on a gig in a small room. AND you can double on cornet -
What brand is the valve trombone?
Los siento mucho
hey Trent at 3:07 (I'm sure u are aware now because u are a knowledgeable man) but when u demonstrated how the airflow went through the trumpet u went the opposite way from the bell section to the leadpipe...
Valve trombones are great but they're brutal when you need to make a comic sound like smearing!
what was the song at 12:17 ??? this trombone player in my band plays it all the time
+Seiko Shinohara i was hoping to learn it better than him and show him up :) lol
+sosuke yamazaki the Blue Bells Of Scotland. 1st variation.
Julie Salcedo thanks!
My middle school also had a valve trombone that he gave to a kid when he broke his arm and couldent use a slide
Really interesting video, especially since I'm just exiting the world of straight tenors and Bb/Fs. Do you think you could get your hands on a Superbone? I'd like to know your opinion and view on that instrument.
Probably not. I don't know anyone who has one :(
+Trent Hamilton what was the song name at 12:17
+Trent Hamilton please m8
+Seiko Shinohara It's the variations on the blue bells of Scotland.
Trent Hamilton thank you so much!
Just cause the valves make it a bit easier to play (as compared to playing with a slide), does that make the music you can make on a valve trombone less than genuine? Is there some suggestion that because its a bit easier to play, the music suddenly doesn't count?
No, not at all. My comments about valve trombones being an excuse are not serious comments.
Hehe its ok, no offence taken, so don't worry. I merely ask because I have heard people say it seriously, and I always thought "the logic of this doesn't make sense".
Would this Trombone have the same fingering as a Bb trumpet?
Nic Flix It depends on the horn. Sometimes yes, but most likely closer to a baritone.
what key is this in? you weren't clear on that and how old is this particular instrument?
Paul Sutter Bb - same as tenor trombone. It was made sometime between 1890 and 1914.
+Trent Hamilton I've always been bad at transposing, so I'm wondering, how can a tenor trombone and trumpet both be in the key of Bb if the 1st position of trombone sounds like a Bb and a trumpet sounds like a C?
Because the trombone plays a non-transposing clef (bass) and the trumpet plays a transposing clef (treble)
Dude, what if i learned euphonium and my arms are too short to use 6th and 7th on slide.?
at first i thought it was one of those g trombones, at least what i think theyre called. correct me if im wrong.
You should get a shargel super bone and demo that
Carnival of Vienna
So... It's kind of a bass trumpet?
My main instrument is trombone, but I really want a valve trombone so I want to try to learn trumpet
Have you tried playing a euphonium/baritone?
Should there be little felt rings on the pistons to avoid that loud clacking noise as they go up & down? ISTR trumpets having them. (I'm not a brass player, but my Dad was, so it's been a while since I watched him play; he retired in 1989 and died 7 years back).
Jonathan Baker I noticed that as well I think there’s different types of designs. I think he has a contrabass trombone and your dad probably (i have one too) had a tenor.
*Brookmeyer.
Where can you get one?
+Ryan Hays I wouldn't get one if I were you. They are an inferior sound to a normal slide trombone and so heavy as to make them a proper headache. There is a video of James Morrison playing a Schlargel super bone which is ergonomically superior to the Holton. But in any case, if one listens to the great players such as Lindberg, then one would question the need for valves at all. I'm no Lindberg, but for 95% of the work I come across there is nothing valve players do that I can't do. It's all in the practice and I didn't use a trombone tutor to play out of but the Arban's trumpet/cornet one. That's why I am fast enough on the slide and tongue to not need valves.
+Patrick Currie Ok thanks!
Valve trombones were made so that trumpet players can make fun of us...
It's a bizarre statement to make that the valve trombone is an excuse for not learning the slide trombone. Trombone players, if you want to be the best you can, learn both types as they are both important instruments.
They made the image from Wikipedia into a real instrument!!
de ja vu. They just changed something in the matrix. The valve out of a Bb baritone... The valve out of a Bb baritone...
the minuet you put valves on a trombone its no longer a trombone. in my opinon this is just a weird looking baritone
hate me all you want
brent nowakowski It's cylindrical though
You are right at most you only need two valves one to put it in F one for Gb and both for Eb Or D
I hate to reply to such an old comment, but seriously. If your Trombone sound is just "Baritone with a slide" you're doing it wrong. The Trombone is supposed to play the role of the trumpet in the tenor range. If the Trombone only existed for the slide gimmick, it would have died off with all the other stupid gimmick horns. Quit playing with a Euphonium mouthpiece and do your job.
"Minuet"?? Mozart would be pleased!
Can the slide move
+spcsyracuse 1056 this is a valve trombone; it doesn't have a slide.
oh
and i play a a yamaha tenor trigger trombone got it on saturday
+Trent Hamilton I'm pretty sure he meant a tuning slide.
There are situations that a composer may want a valve trombone quality and some where they want a slide trombone quality. In fact, Verdi wrote for valve trombone, and the proper way to play his operas are with a group of valve trombones and a cimbasso (a contrabass valve trombone) in place of tuba. The best professional orchestras own a set of these instruments for this purpose, and these parts sound much better and suited for these instruments. Also, if you listen to valve trombone jazz players like Bobby Brookmeyer, Rob McConnell, Maynard Ferguson or Juan Tizol, you'll note that the valve trombone has a drastically different quality than the slide trombone, it has a briskness suitable for the music they were playing. In many ways, it is just an entirely different instrument, covering a range often not present by other valved cylindrical instruments (Bass Trumpet, which has essentially the same sound, is the only one.) I absolutely love the slide trombone and primarily use it, but I do wish there was a option in certain situation where one could call up a valve trombone, either as a double for a trumpet or trombone. Note that Baritone and Euphonium are NOT the same thing, due to some partial conical design. Baritone is like a lower Cornet and Euphonium is a lower Flugelhorn (or high Tuba.) So the only instrument that approximates a lower trumpet is the valve trombone, and the Cimbasso adds a cylindrical quality not present from any instrument (although it could easily be doubled by a Tuba player.)
Blue bells of scotland just does not sound the same without the slide
You got a dent too Trent.
Well, thank you for calling all brass players (except slide trombone players) lazy. :) Except for that, nice video!! (a valve trombone is a large trumpet)
I’m slightly mad at this because If this is an excuse for not learning the slide trombone, then that’s like saying trumpets are excuses for not learning the soprano trombone
Blake Orr not in the slightest buddy
Blake Orr, answer these questions:
W
hat came first: slide or valve trombone?
Now this: What came first: trumpet or soprano trombone?
@@dimaggiochannel slide trumpet and soprano sackbut came long before the valve trumpet.
I would not want that siting behind me in orchestra. It is bad enough with slide trombones.
Normally I really enjoy your videos but suggesting valve bones are an excuse to not learn how to use a slide is ridiculous. A very small number of players start off on a valve bone. My valve bone is a great doubling instrument and makes things that are difficult or impossible on a slide trombone much easier.... This is especially useful as a contemporary classical composer.
Hey mate, sorry you've taken offense. My comments are largely just taking the mick. I know the valve trombone has a place in the world.
Oliver Pickup I think the valve trombone is good for people who played Trumpet but want to learn to play trombone, but I think F attachment triggers are better. It's what I play and it makes reaching many positions easier and has a much louder and nicer sound then a tenor trombone
Once the valve trombone was invented, what purpose does the slide trombone actually serve, other than clichéd glissandos, and leaving spit on other people's shoulders?
At least it's a real trombone
High register is good but low register is not so great
Valve trombones destroy the whole purpose of a trombone... You can basically call them baritones that look kind of like trombones.
Shaaaaaaaame
...so you're saying that a trumpet is just an excuse for not learning soprano trombone? That does follow from your whole "valve trombones are an excuse" thing, does it not?
That's not even a comparable scenario.
A soprano trombone (slide trumpet) is impractical in almost every situation except for jazz, because of the fact that the slide is hard to hit a perfect spot with and it has a bad transition between notes. It also has a limited range compared to trumpet.
Slide trombone has an actual navigable slide and has a bright tone for a brass instrument, and it's usually easier to control dynamics on slide trombones, they also have the ability to play in many different ways than valved instruments could.
However, I wouldn't say valve trombone is useless.
listen to Brook Meyer, when you can get that sound out of a Slide horn you may have a point! nonsense.
Eugene Farrar why even use a valve Trombone? If you really want valves you could use a baritone
+Jonathan K. nonesense.
Jonathan K. Well a valve trombone belongs to the trombone family so it is the worst trombone but still better than all the other instruments
Andrew Wallace wrong
Who knew valves could be depressed
I call this a tenor/bass trumpet lmao
Valve trombones are for sissies, folks with only 1 arm, stubby arms, or for the baritone player who left their instrument at home.
A valve trombone is a terrible marching baritone and that is fact
I you will offend a lot of people in the Stiermark...
So do you just borrow all these instruments or are you a multimillionaire in order to afford them?
Some of them are borrowed; most of them are mine. I'm certainly not a multi-millionaire. This particular trombone cost $200 NZD.
ok cool
BenniM ya he isn't a multimillionaire are you crazy, he is a multibillionaire 😂
SHAME