I think yall should make your B tier "good in specific archetypes" and your C tier "good in specific decks" and d tier "good with niche card interactions". A tier Ofc something like "good in most but not all archetypes" and S "good to excellent in any context". That would, imo, clarify so much of the conversations yall have. Essentially I'm saying I think your criteria creates a language barrier between yall. Which, don't get me wrong, it's fun to watch yall rib each other over it.
Notably the adventure side of decadent dragon is a instant so when someone vapiric tutors or does a top of library tutor or keeps a scry on top you can cast that one their upkeep
I was thinking about this. I'd love this against the Yuriko player in my pod when he is Scroll Racking, Lind Du Vaulting to get that combo piece or big mana thingy to explode us all, just tell him yoink
Someone Scheming Symetryd me in Historic brawl against my Sheoldred deck, they scooped to my Gonti that I tutored and drew. I didn't even get to see what they wanted so badly.
@@deloreigames8641 The day I built Yuriko and brought it to my playgroup, someone else had, completely by accident, built Circu, Dimir Lobotomist lantern control. So he spent the whole game looking at the top of my library and exiling bombs before I could flip them with Yuriko. I got countered so hard, haha.
Completely agree with Tomer and Richard on Virtue of Persistence. For seven mana you could cast Breach the Multiverse and get four creatures (or planeswalkers!) right then and there. What are the odds that VoP is ever gonna be allowed to sit out for four turns?
If you're playing Persistence it's absolutely because you're okay playing the adventure side as a pretty decent removal spell that draws a mediocre enchantment later. Breach is a good card but it's not good until turn seven, and that difference is fundamental. I want to play Persistence because it's something to spend mana on late after I killed an Azusa or whatever, not because I really love Debtor's Knell.
@@Kestral287 The ability of adventures to let you have two cards in one slot is always powerful, but I just don’t see “cantrips into Debtor’s Knell” as enough to fix what is otherwise a subpar targeted removal spell.
@Graatand And that's fine, but you are at least looking at the removal spell first. For the huge majority of adventures, you should always be starting by looking at the adventure mode, because these cards have a very developed play pattern of "cast adventure now, cast big guy later". You won't always do that, but that's the angle you should be building them around. For some reason with the Virtues, especially Persistence, people are hung up on evaluating the back half like they're their own cards. And that's just not how the cards work. Sea Gate Restoration looks really bad if you only read it as a bad island that bolts you if you want it untapped, but that's not good card evaluation either. Personally, I think the card has a lot of homes in decks that want to take advantage of lots of incremental card advantage over big bursts, decks that for whatever reason need heavy permanent or enchantment counts, cmc matters decks, decks intentionally trying to drag the game long... all kinds of places really like Persistence. Is it an every black deck card? Nah. But it is being undervalued because people are valuing it backwards.
@Kestral287 The reason people evaluate that card with the enchantment in mind is because the enchantment is very terrible. Again, playing a card like that without being in a dedicated stax deck or in a deck that has as tight of a grip in the entire board as nothing else is just making you die. 7 mana for a once-a-turn-effect that doesn't even happen the turn you play it just won't cut it. The removal spell is decent, yes, but as the guys argued, most people wouldn't play a 2 mana -3/-3; and since the other part of the card _is_ terrible in any pod that actually plays removal or is somewhat mana efficient, it should basically not factor in other than an incidental, super minor benefit - if not being an actual downside, as Richard argued, because you are literally showing your plans ahead of time, making the other players very wary.
I love hearing Tomer defending the Green Dragon only because I think some of the most memorable commander moments are when you pull of an unexpected gotcha. Like even countering an Ugin ability is funny.
Played my Beluna Grandsquall deck and gotten Song of Creation on the battlefield once so far. You basically use the Adventure Zone as a second hand to fuel the initial part of the turn so you never draw dead and just play acceleratingly fair Magic turn after turn. It's not a Storm combo, just a cool interaction, so people aren't really scared. Then Emerald Dragon counters the discard trigger with a full grip... Super fun and memorable game.
I think virtue of persistence is a d, as a black player that has multiple graveyard decks, it is so exceedingly slow I wouldnt even consider putting it in a deck.
Seems good in the right reanimator deck but I could see how it isn't an auto include. My ziatora deck likes it because I sacrifice 1 per turn to her ability every turn and it could just let me loop sacrifice things like atsushi, hoarding broodlord and bring it back next turn
I love how they will give some things lower scores because they're too powerful and draw a lot of hate and get instantly removed, but then the white Virtue gets compared to Cathar's Crusade as not being as powerful as the Crusade, but Crusade is just a busted card that gets instantly removed most of the time because of its power. I don't understand their logic in times like this.
46:55 I am really sympathetic to the synergy argument here normally, but I do think the instant-speed side of the adventure has disruptive applications that redeem the card. You can snipe a vampiric tutor-style effect target immediately or you can cause a retained scry to backfire, which you can’t do with a Gonti, and furthermore the card specifies play, not cast, so if you randomly fire this off and roll into a pair of lands you still aren’t boned.
Realm cloaked giant is great in any primal surge decks as an extra board wipe that won’t mess up your surge. Super niche but very effective. Same with beanstalk giant
Giant killer is a beast. There are so many tutor and recursion cards that look for 1 cmc cards. White tutoring removal is stellar. I run this all of the time
Not just that, but Sword of Once and Future can actually recur the adventure half of Kellan in the yard to tutor more swords and put him in Exile to make him castable again. It's a weird interaction, but because it doesn't target it works.
People at my lgs cut lands for ramp so they probably never hit their fifth land drop. I love when people play 100 ramp spells and then complain when they top deck farseek on turn 10
I play a lot of ranger of eos/ ranger captain of eos, and it used to be in my rotation. Only have so much room though, and it's been pushed out. Still respect the card, slot's just gotten competitive. Just added Omarthis to the crew
@@Donovarkhallum lol, get out 🤣 The notion that you're going to pay 2 mana a turn for a tap and be happy about it is ludicrous. The card is garbage without both heavy and specific synergies. The card is super niche, if even that.
I'm totally with Tomer about Virtue of Persistence. I'm *also* quite low on it in Standard, though it seems like it's performing well there. But paying 7 mana for an enchantment that does nothing until your NEXT UPKEEP is really rough. If there's anything scary in your graveyard, you've given everyone more than enough time to deal with it. Sure, it comes with a meh removal spell, but I'm certainly not playing it FOR that meh removal spell. I think it really needed to be an end step trigger to be reasonable.
The thing about virtue of courage in Torbrann decks is a lot of your burn like mana barbs, zozu, or sulfuric vortex type cards happen on your opponents turns and you can’t really take that much advantage of the cards your getting if they’re lands or sorcery speed
I play a creature only Umori deck, and Horde of Notions. Bramble Familiar is a beauty for both. The self-mill is value for both. The mana dork is value. Its almost impossible for me to miss on the 7 mana mode, and it'll probably be good. Just solid all over.
It’s perfect for Volo, Guide to Monsters as well. Get it out early to ramp into Volo, and you can use its own ability to return it to hand, cast your nyxbloom and double it, then cast the adventure for insane card advantage
Giant Killer is awesome with Ranger/Ranger Captain of Eos. I love putting a package for the Eos bros in my white decks, and Giant Killer is a valuable part of that package
an important part of kellan is that he can search up auras as well which means as long as you're running something like darksteel mutation he also has a mode to tutor up a removal spell
Illithid Havester is amazing in simic - it's a X wide alpha strike or it shuts down three or fours active threats that are currently impacting the table and accruing value, and it's not a bounce
Don’t even cast the creature. Leave it looming in exile. Attackers will know it’s coming and attack less often or they will lose their creatures to worse than exile, the face down zone.
Agreed! I am running it in my Pia Storm deck to great effect. It can very easily draw an incredible amount of cards, plus the adventure mode helps you avoid whiffing on casting it when it shows up on an impulse draw. Top-notch card.
Every time someone dismissed the red virtue I screamed "Impact Tremors" into the void. Seth said that Krenko wouldn't run it, as if Krenko doesn't love his Tremors and Purphoros.
@@Iwoqvossik Or, I could instead pay 5 mana to do something that actually lets me win. Like, imagine the ideal scenario for this in Krenko. Impact tremors into krenko into virtue. Krenko will just be killed before you do anything.
Illithid Havester is actually pretty decent in a "Hinata, Dawn-Crowned". Also you can just play it for the adventure and leave it in exile for psychological reasons and play it when people forget about it. High C for me (maybe even low B)
Adding Kellan to my Syr Gwyn list in place of a Fighter Class. Same role, better utility, and like Vadruk and Heavenly Blademaster, he can hold all my Treasure and Blood while Bludgeon Brawl is out.
That comparison of Virtue of Persistence to Debtor’s Knell hit home so hard for me. It was my favorite card for years, but it almost never DID anything all those years I played it, so I sadly just stopped running it. 😢
Virtue of loyalty is stone unplayable, the 2/2 knight doesn’t matter and there are way better ways to get a 1/1 counter on all your creatures, Cathar’s crusade literally has the same mana cost and will actually win you the game
The crew is really missing the value of monster manual. The purpose is not to play it and then drop 8 drops for the next three turns for 2 mana (though that would be nice), it lets you do 2 things: 1. Drop creatures at instant speed, and 2. Maintain the ability to play 2+ spells per turn. If you can drop Manual on turn 3 after ramp, then on turn four drop a big threat plus also hold up two mana for heroic intervention, a bite, or anything else like that you're way ahead.
Hearth elemental not only is red draw for cheap, has a high power & toughness creature attached, but also gruul omnath synergy cuz its an elemental. I think the card is a home run for 25 cents.
RE: Giant Killer, the actual reason to run it is because it slots into the white weenie tutor package (Ranger of Eos, Ranger-Captain of Eos, Recruiter of the Guard). Having it work with the weenie draw package (Tocasia's Welcome and friends) is the bonus, what you really want is a way to tutor out removal.
Brazen Borrower is good in 1v1 because true Control decks actually exist there, where you answer all your opponent's threats, while drawing more cards, allowing you to eventually stick a win condition. BB is good as a win condition because it is both a (temporary) answer and win condition on one card, which effectively makes it all 3 things you need in one (answer, card advantage [kinda], and a win con) This type of deck does not really exist in commander for multiple reasons. For one, having three opponents means you can't answer every threat unless you are playing a massively more powerful deck than everyone else, which is poor form. For another, commander decks may not all win with "infinite combos", but most of them do ramp up in a nonlinear fashion. So while a 1v1 combo deck can get the game into a state where they are reliably just going to be getting more powerful than their opponent every turn, that really isn't the case in commander. You're not going to be able to say "yeah I'll just get control of the game and chip them all down over the course of 20 more turns if they don't realize they've lost and scoop". I often hear people talk like it's possible to play a 1v1 style control deck in commander and it just makes no sense to me.
I'm going to be a gross Monster Manual defender and say being able to activate it the turn you drop it for 6 mana total in like, Dinosaurs, and get a dinosaur out the same turn you play it, it's really solid. It'll still be around on future turns to continue giving big discounts, and you have a shiny new dino to protect you.
MONSTER MANUAL! compare it to a 4 mana 2 Lands ramp. you play when you get to 4 mana. the next turn, after Land drop, you either have 7 mana or 5 mana, BUT one creature spell per turn cycle has flash (!!) and only costs 2! you make net mana if you play a 5drop. PLUS you had an adventure attached to it that would curve into the 4drop.
You folks did miss one of my most favorite adventures. Merchant of the Vale! Still not all that high powered, but at one mana to haggle to rummage, and then once in play a 3 mana ability to also rummage. Nice little value engine to help keep a deck moving and nudge certain cards into the graveyard where they belong.
Tomer's right about Virtue of Persistence and comparing it to debtor's knell is very appropriate. They are not the staples you might think. However, debtor's knell was my finisher in an abzhan enchantress deck that ran things like cataclysm and armageddon. Anything that needs way too long to develop an absurd amount of value says stax to me.
I agree that Kellan is probably going to end up one of the top Boros Equipment commanders, probably challenging Wyleth, which puts him at A tier at least. Now, would I play him in non-dedicated equipment or aura decks? Well, there's Osgir, which could take a lightning greaves or Battlemage bracers. He's a hit off of Winota and grabs greaves or skullclamp or something. A lot of Firesong and Sunspeake decks run Sunforger and Mithril coat... I think there are more decks that would be helped by Kellan than harmed by him. So yeah, S tier.
I play the realm cloaked giant in a ton of decks even 5 color ones. I think it's just so good. Many meta's are slow enough that a 5 mana wipe is not that difficult to fit in over a 4 mana one. And for any slower control deck having a big body late game is really great! It's basically a board wipe that draws a card!
@@Kryptnyt White can use a 1cc Mystic that fetches 0 or 1cc equipments. Steelshaper’s Gift is nice but it’s a spell, not a creature which white could blink and/recur. :D
@@Cyberium Yeah just getting Skullclamp with a creature is a lot better I think, because you can immediately have a body to clamp, and if you already drew skullclamp at least you get something.
Bramble Familiar is a god send for Volo decks wanting dorks with different creature types. Bonus points this one returns itself to your hand, so you can still double your nyxbloom in the later game
For 7 mana instead of Virtue of Persistence I would rather cast Breach the Multiverse and put 10 cards in the yard to choose from and get 4 "upkeep triggers" immediately
Bramble Familiar is for reanimator. Early game it ramps, you then bounce it back to your hand to pitch a reanimation target. Then you get to mill and reanimate again. It's a solid B.
29:96 for a budget edh challenge i built a maelstrom wanderer storm deck that only ramp basics and a bunch of mana doubleler as the deck had a bunch of untap all basic lands effects and card draw to keep storming. That is the only deck I can see running this.
Sharing the following as a mono green player: Bramble Familiar is repeatable adventure with its ability to be back from hand mid blocking. Not the best but it's a good mana sink on ramp decks during the mid game. Monster Manual is psuedo flash but agree that this does give unwarranted focus on you. Nonetheless it has a home in some decks that will benefit out of its instant play (sadly not cast) of any costed creature for 2.
Emerald Dragon is actually good. 3 mana to counter an ability is highly costed but your in green so you probably have the ramp for it, and there are a lot of non-creature abilities that are worth countering. A 6 mana 4/4 with Flyng and trample is kinda bad, but it becomes very playable when it doesn't actually take a card slot in the deck. I'd give Emerald Dragon a solid B. It might be playgroup dependent a little bit but I definitely see enough non-creature abilities going off to say its worth it. Only other change to their tier list I feel strongly about is Virtue of Knowledge should be an A. Copying an ability you control is super useful, and then doubling ETBs later in the game is also very worth the 5 mana. Worst case it soaks removal for something else on your board because they're afraid of it, which feels bad but enchantment removal is rare enough its likely to stick around for value.
Regarding Virtue of Strength: I put together a Henzie deck with 35 lands that slams Henzie on 3 consistently. 18 of those lands are basics. The adventure is great if you're a creature deck, and is actually very pushed - it's the first one mana Regrowth effect to my knowledge, even if it's limited. So I'm willing to consider it for that purpose, and sometimes it'll net mana late game and that's cool.
@jadegrace1312 Oh? I'm not aware of them. Noxious Revival is the closest I'm aware of but that's a very different effect in practice. After a Scryfall search there's a bunch of this effect (minus the land part, which is actually very relevant) in black, but the only green one I found is the incredibly limited Rofellos's Gift.
Beanstalker Giant is great in my CMC matters Riku deck. I can copy the ramp and get untapped lands into play. The cmc is high for Calibrated Blast type effects. The creature is not useless if it comes down to topdeck mode.
I dont think they really talked about how the adventures that target for like burn and removal can be lost. If the target gets protected or becomes invalid, the spell doesnt resolve and you dont get the exile and cast later part either.
The one thing I can say about the huge influx of cards is the diversity and utility mid grade cards receive due to synergy. I personally play a Prowl, Stoic Strategist deck. Very mid level. I love many white adventures. Kill a creature, tap a creature, exile and recast the kill spell, recast the creature for an etb. A fine gear for control. Giant killer has 1 power and draws from mentor of the meek. Tap down the thing I want to exile with Prowl.
I added virtue of strength to my Bant Chulane deck. Was able to cast it on turn 4, which then let me play Vorinclex Voice of Hunger. On turn 5 I was then able to drop MoonShaker Calvary AND Craterhoof Behemoth. Triple Double mana on a fast mana dork deck might be better than ya think
Alright Tomer now that you've brought the 6 cmc tribal deck up in two podcasts .You gotta play it soon or atleast give us a updated list pretty please 🙏.
for sure you forgot the sonnophore and the whale. these two i can remind for sure. regarding the green virtue, i played it, and the result was kind of insane.
So I find a lot of these adventure cards are really just good for certain decks. Bone crusher and brazen borrower are nuts in a deck like Kalamax where it copies the adventure side and then just gives you a body on the otherside. Same goes for virtue of knowledge works amazing for ETB decks. I agree with virtue of persistence that it is bad, after play testing it, I never want to really play it. The point of these cards are just to have a weird spilt cards that are 2 in 1 to give you 101 cards in your deck essentially
I see your Virtue of Persistence and raise you a Grave Betrayal... both cost 7 honking mana for the effect, but I think Betrayal is a much better effect in a multiplayer game, especially in a deck that likes to kill stuff. The 'reainamte at upkeep' isn't actually a great ability for 7 mana, OG Sheoldred was a better effect and most people look at that card squarely as a trap card in anything but Casual. I think it should have been at the endstep that you get the body, but having to wait a whole cycle without having added meaningfully to your board sounds dangerous if you're playing a remotely cutthroat meta. Virtue of Strength is Sorcery that has a terrible Enchantment stapled to it Anything but mono-Green almost never runs enough Basics to care about this (while mono-Green doesn't need to use fetchlands), unless you're using this to combo off (at which point just use anything else, sheesh!). Bonecrusher is a fascinating card in my Legacy Burn deck, I love having Stomp to keep the card slot from being too clunky, 2 damage isn't much but it can be enough. I don't care about the damage clause very often, but I'm shocked at how useful it is to just run more Burn spells in a Burn deck, yet also run more aggro simultaneously. It rarely feels bad to spend turns burning blockers before playing your Bonecrusher onto an empty/paltry board, and it's removal resistant. I don't run Beanstalk Giant in many decks, but I do like it in my Mono-Green deck which does in fact care about ramping a lot yet also want a big body sometimes, because the deck uses lots of Trample Anthems. I'd like to point out that Beanstalk finds an untapped Basic, which can be a nice perk sometimes. Horn of Valhalla is a funny item in Baldur's Gate 1+2, by the time you get it the bodies it makes suck, and the upgraded versions similarly suck. This card isn't terrible, but making x 1/1s for xWW isn't terrible, and the equip ability is 'meh'. I'm thinking about using Quicksliver Amulet in my Eldrazi deck, I'm not sure if it's really 'good enough', but it has potential if it can cheat out a 10-12 drop. I think I'd consider Monster Manual over it, but I don't know if I love the Adventure mode in that build. I like Kellan, but Boros Equipment is not the most exciting option out there. I think A+C are a more interesting/exciting build, but Open the Armory in the CZ is pretty sweet for some decks. Intrepid Hero >>> Giant Killer, Giant Killer is a bad card over time, I think I'd even run Serene Master over it, technically both target to work.
it went unsaid with the lifelink from Murderous Rider you're at net-0 life loss and you could cast it again if your shuffling and drawing through your deck
Does virtue of knowledge double stuff like Riveteers Overlook? It seems pretty nice if it does, can copy it early and late with the card. Also, imagine copying myriad landscape! there's also stuff other then lands that you can copy to ramp, like burnished hart, sword of Hearth and Home/animist, wayfarer's bauble. it seems a reasonable plan for me, even if it's not on curve ramping is still pretty good for 2 mana
Y’all are underestimating virtue of strength I’ve learned from just jamming nyxbloom that it’s a free spell or a ritual that wins you the game the majority of the time. and I’m willing to warp my mana base to at least try it out a second copy of nyxbloom.
Maybe I love Green too much but I feel like it isn't that hard to have 4-5 basics out by the time you cast this which effectively doubles your mana immediately and can be even better if you have more basics. I'm excited to try it.
It's pretty narrow, but I didn't hear it mentioned. You can cascade into bramble familiar and cast the 7 mana half for free even if the spell that cascaded isn't CMC >7, one more point in it's favor vs beanstalk giant.
@@Trisket just double checked, an adventure while cascading only has the mana value of the creature. bloodbraid elf into bramble familiar will let you fetch quest
Persistence looks bad to me as well. Spending a slot on a -3-3 seems awful and the debtor is not quick enough. Its better to use rise of dark realms or any cheap reanimator or sheoldred. This is not a B like the other ones cause its not an auto in reanimator.
So wrong on brazen borrower. Evasive flash attacker with a tempo instant attached to it. Tymna loves this card, edric loves this card, Raffine loves this card, all faerie and rogue decks love this card, errant and giada loves this card. Brazen borrower is the most versatile adventure card on this list. Gets you out from under a stax piece on the end step of your opponent’s turn going into your turn where you win the game. I’ve got your back Krim!
They dont seem to play that style of game a lot, so I can see why they dont rate it highly. I def. See your point tho. It is efficient and versatile, but it does not take you over the top.
People need to see how bramble familiar plays in standard. You don't care if it gets ganked. It's a good dork but it's a good 7 mana spell. If you get to use both sides, great! I think this should go in any deck that wants mana dorks.
Illithid Harvester is definitely a C. You don't have to play the adventure section. I feel like some of the cards here were treated more like sagas in discussion. The power of adventures is the card advantage and choice.
Will Seth have forbidden orchard and dowsing dagger in his hylda deck? I've done a quick search on hylda decks and found most are not playing those and it seems so wrong to not auto-include them in hylda. Even Akroan Horse i think is probably right to include in the deck. Hunted phantasm maybe as well
Underrating the beanstalk, kodama's reach doesn't swing for lethal. A bit like NBFCs the giant occupies two positions in a ramp deck, being a threat and a ramp source.
Think Shrouded Shepherd might be a sleeper uncommon from the new set, Shepherd of the Flock is one of my personal favorites, and Decadent Dragon is just so cool. I want to give Altar of Bhaal a shot but it's not legal on MTGO.
Not sure it changes the rating out of D, but Illithid Harvester is a must include in Hinata decks, granted a lot of mediocre cards become very strong in Hinata...
I find virtue of strength to be a good paring with cards like nexos which give basic lands the ability to tap for two colorless mana for a spell with x in it. Since virtue says triple the amount of mana produced by that land it lets you generate 6 colorless mana for each basic. Not great overall but good for x spell decks. I’m going to add it to my magus Lucia Kane deck
The Twining Twins *really* should be in D. In the discussion everyone got convinced that you don't play that so it deserves D. Keeping it above the dragon was just a meme at that point... same for the Monster Manual.
Woodland Acolyte is an easy A. Monster Manual doesn’t need big things, because you get enough value just by having instant speed options. Tlincalli Hunter helps you cast other adventures, so it’s NOT THE SAME as Finale of Devastation. Hearing that comparison made me cringe. Decadent Dragon, against top-deck tutors, is just a second Opposition Agent. Bramble Familiar can be exploited by Bring to Light. Illithid Harvester is good in morph decks.
I'm with Krim, Brazen Borrower doesn't deserve this level disrespect in EDH. It's a niche card to be sure but bounces are occasionally useful and the creature half has relevant types and keywords.
the blue, white and black virtues look like decent cards that you can run in many Timmy strats. If you're trying to build the most optimized deck none of them are cEDH good but even in a high power table most of the time the virtues are good enough to play (except the black and green ones they're too much mana to do nothing on the enchantment side).
I like virtue of Persistence, the adventure side synergizes with the enchantment side pretty well, and so I think it actually works in most decks with black (In STANDARD) In commander, the green one is the best, and is the one I would add to green decks.
I think yall should make your B tier "good in specific archetypes" and your C tier "good in specific decks" and d tier "good with niche card interactions".
A tier Ofc something like "good in most but not all archetypes" and S "good to excellent in any context".
That would, imo, clarify so much of the conversations yall have. Essentially I'm saying I think your criteria creates a language barrier between yall.
Which, don't get me wrong, it's fun to watch yall rib each other over it.
Notably the adventure side of decadent dragon is a instant so when someone vapiric tutors or does a top of library tutor or keeps a scry on top you can cast that one their upkeep
I was thinking about this. I'd love this against the Yuriko player in my pod when he is Scroll Racking, Lind Du Vaulting to get that combo piece or big mana thingy to explode us all, just tell him yoink
Someone Scheming Symetryd me in Historic brawl against my Sheoldred deck, they scooped to my Gonti that I tutored and drew. I didn't even get to see what they wanted so badly.
@@deloreigames8641 The day I built Yuriko and brought it to my playgroup, someone else had, completely by accident, built Circu, Dimir Lobotomist lantern control. So he spent the whole game looking at the top of my library and exiling bombs before I could flip them with Yuriko. I got countered so hard, haha.
That's dirty. I love it.
Completely agree with Tomer and Richard on Virtue of Persistence.
For seven mana you could cast Breach the Multiverse and get four creatures (or planeswalkers!) right then and there. What are the odds that VoP is ever gonna be allowed to sit out for four turns?
If you're playing Persistence it's absolutely because you're okay playing the adventure side as a pretty decent removal spell that draws a mediocre enchantment later. Breach is a good card but it's not good until turn seven, and that difference is fundamental. I want to play Persistence because it's something to spend mana on late after I killed an Azusa or whatever, not because I really love Debtor's Knell.
@@Kestral287 The ability of adventures to let you have two cards in one slot is always powerful, but I just don’t see “cantrips into Debtor’s Knell” as enough to fix what is otherwise a subpar targeted removal spell.
@Graatand And that's fine, but you are at least looking at the removal spell first. For the huge majority of adventures, you should always be starting by looking at the adventure mode, because these cards have a very developed play pattern of "cast adventure now, cast big guy later". You won't always do that, but that's the angle you should be building them around.
For some reason with the Virtues, especially Persistence, people are hung up on evaluating the back half like they're their own cards. And that's just not how the cards work. Sea Gate Restoration looks really bad if you only read it as a bad island that bolts you if you want it untapped, but that's not good card evaluation either.
Personally, I think the card has a lot of homes in decks that want to take advantage of lots of incremental card advantage over big bursts, decks that for whatever reason need heavy permanent or enchantment counts, cmc matters decks, decks intentionally trying to drag the game long... all kinds of places really like Persistence. Is it an every black deck card? Nah. But it is being undervalued because people are valuing it backwards.
@Kestral287 The reason people evaluate that card with the enchantment in mind is because the enchantment is very terrible. Again, playing a card like that without being in a dedicated stax deck or in a deck that has as tight of a grip in the entire board as nothing else is just making you die. 7 mana for a once-a-turn-effect that doesn't even happen the turn you play it just won't cut it.
The removal spell is decent, yes, but as the guys argued, most people wouldn't play a 2 mana -3/-3; and since the other part of the card _is_ terrible in any pod that actually plays removal or is somewhat mana efficient, it should basically not factor in other than an incidental, super minor benefit - if not being an actual downside, as Richard argued, because you are literally showing your plans ahead of time, making the other players very wary.
I love hearing Tomer defending the Green Dragon only because I think some of the most memorable commander moments are when you pull of an unexpected gotcha. Like even countering an Ugin ability is funny.
Played my Beluna Grandsquall deck and gotten Song of Creation on the battlefield once so far.
You basically use the Adventure Zone as a second hand to fuel the initial part of the turn so you never draw dead and just play acceleratingly fair Magic turn after turn.
It's not a Storm combo, just a cool interaction, so people aren't really scared.
Then Emerald Dragon counters the discard trigger with a full grip...
Super fun and memorable game.
@@em688 That sounds really cool honestly. May have to try it out.
I think virtue of persistence is a d, as a black player that has multiple graveyard decks, it is so exceedingly slow I wouldnt even consider putting it in a deck.
Seems good in the right reanimator deck but I could see how it isn't an auto include. My ziatora deck likes it because I sacrifice 1 per turn to her ability every turn and it could just let me loop sacrifice things like atsushi, hoarding broodlord and bring it back next turn
I’d probably try it in Ghen, Arcanum Weaver
At that point you could just hard cast your reanimation targets
I also am a heavy graveyard player and I agree
I have the same problem with saga sheoldred. Played it in my Mimeoplasm deck once and took it out.
I love how they will give some things lower scores because they're too powerful and draw a lot of hate and get instantly removed, but then the white Virtue gets compared to Cathar's Crusade as not being as powerful as the Crusade, but Crusade is just a busted card that gets instantly removed most of the time because of its power. I don't understand their logic in times like this.
The crew (esp Richard) rates cards down when those cards draw hate and *don't win the game*
Cathar's Crusade wins the game in 1-2 turns.
46:55 I am really sympathetic to the synergy argument here normally, but I do think the instant-speed side of the adventure has disruptive applications that redeem the card. You can snipe a vampiric tutor-style effect target immediately or you can cause a retained scry to backfire, which you can’t do with a Gonti, and furthermore the card specifies play, not cast, so if you randomly fire this off and roll into a pair of lands you still aren’t boned.
Beanstalk Giant has been great in my Grothama deck. Richard nailed it with the “power matters” draw cards
I don't meet many other Grothama players. Id be interested in seeing your list if you're able to post it here
Omg kindred spirits i love grothma! He’s been my go to mono green commander for forever now
Realm cloaked giant is great in any primal surge decks as an extra board wipe that won’t mess up your surge. Super niche but very effective. Same with beanstalk giant
That's pretty cool
Giant killer is a beast. There are so many tutor and recursion cards that look for 1 cmc cards. White tutoring removal is stellar. I run this all of the time
Kellan has double strike, so he actually triggers sword of x and y 2 times. Hes def better than stoneforge mystic at holding swords
Heck yeah. Literally, the first thing I thought of when I saw this card. I would include it in any Boros deck just for the ramp potential.
Not just that, but Sword of Once and Future can actually recur the adventure half of Kellan in the yard to tutor more swords and put him in Exile to make him castable again.
It's a weird interaction, but because it doesn't target it works.
❤
I was surprised Crim didn't go out of his way to mention Sword of Body and Mind, since Kellan essentially makes two 3/2s whenever he attacks.
It can do that? I assumed that because the card is a creature card that Sword of Once and Future just wouldn't see it.
Richard: you should be ramping as much as possible.
Also Richard: you play 5 cmc cards on turn 5
People at my lgs cut lands for ramp so they probably never hit their fifth land drop. I love when people play 100 ramp spells and then complain when they top deck farseek on turn 10
@@adamlorincz8182sounds like really shitty deck building you should play 10-12 land ramp and about 38 lands
I cannot put into words how insane you guys sound in regards to Giant Killer.
Only tomer sounds insane. Tapping is underated like fogs. Sometimes. You just need one. More turn.
I play a lot of ranger of eos/ ranger captain of eos, and it used to be in my rotation. Only have so much room though, and it's been pushed out. Still respect the card, slot's just gotten competitive. Just added Omarthis to the crew
@@Donovarkhallum Especially since Tomer was calling Emerald Dragon good.
@@Donovarkhallum lol, get out 🤣
The notion that you're going to pay 2 mana a turn for a tap and be happy about it is ludicrous. The card is garbage without both heavy and specific synergies.
The card is super niche, if even that.
@@siri7005 Yeah it's great in pioneer! Terrible in commander though. Complete dogshit.
I'm totally with Tomer about Virtue of Persistence. I'm *also* quite low on it in Standard, though it seems like it's performing well there. But paying 7 mana for an enchantment that does nothing until your NEXT UPKEEP is really rough. If there's anything scary in your graveyard, you've given everyone more than enough time to deal with it. Sure, it comes with a meh removal spell, but I'm certainly not playing it FOR that meh removal spell. I think it really needed to be an end step trigger to be reasonable.
Same. Breach the muiltiverse costs the same and gets you 4 creatures on the same turn lol.
@@Sinistra359 Yep. I feel like Persistence should do something like trigger on each upkeep and pull something from that player's GY.
The thing about virtue of courage in Torbrann decks is a lot of your burn like mana barbs, zozu, or sulfuric vortex type cards happen on your opponents turns and you can’t really take that much advantage of the cards your getting if they’re lands or sorcery speed
I play a creature only Umori deck, and Horde of Notions. Bramble Familiar is a beauty for both. The self-mill is value for both. The mana dork is value. Its almost impossible for me to miss on the 7 mana mode, and it'll probably be good. Just solid all over.
It’s perfect for Volo, Guide to Monsters as well. Get it out early to ramp into Volo, and you can use its own ability to return it to hand, cast your nyxbloom and double it, then cast the adventure for insane card advantage
A fellow Horde player! How exciting! That’s my pet deck 😊 and I agree bramble familiar does seem good in that deck.
Thank-you Richard! Twining vs twinning was driving me nuts lol
Giant Killer is awesome with Ranger/Ranger Captain of Eos. I love putting a package for the Eos bros in my white decks, and Giant Killer is a valuable part of that package
Yeah, there’s a very significant value in white being a 1 cmc creature.
an important part of kellan is that he can search up auras as well which means as long as you're running something like darksteel mutation he also has a mode to tutor up a removal spell
Illithid Havester is amazing in simic - it's a X wide alpha strike or it shuts down three or fours active threats that are currently impacting the table and accruing value, and it's not a bounce
Don’t even cast the creature. Leave it looming in exile. Attackers will know it’s coming and attack less often or they will lose their creatures to worse than exile, the face down zone.
I love ixidron type cards 😂
Crim with the dog cam.
How wonderful
Virtue of Courage in the new Pia Nilar cheerios deck that Tomer mentioned, with impact tremors (or similar cards) would be INSANE.
Agreed! I am running it in my Pia Storm deck to great effect. It can very easily draw an incredible amount of cards, plus the adventure mode helps you avoid whiffing on casting it when it shows up on an impulse draw. Top-notch card.
Every time someone dismissed the red virtue I screamed "Impact Tremors" into the void. Seth said that Krenko wouldn't run it, as if Krenko doesn't love his Tremors and Purphoros.
@@Iwoqvossik Or, I could instead pay 5 mana to do something that actually lets me win. Like, imagine the ideal scenario for this in Krenko. Impact tremors into krenko into virtue. Krenko will just be killed before you do anything.
Illithid Havester is actually pretty decent in a "Hinata, Dawn-Crowned". Also you can just play it for the adventure and leave it in exile for psychological reasons and play it when people forget about it. High C for me (maybe even low B)
I love Kellen. He immediately went into my Yoshimaru+Kediss deck. He fetches the Shadowspear for Yoshimaru and pumps him up when he ETBs too.
Adding Kellan to my Syr Gwyn list in place of a Fighter Class. Same role, better utility, and like Vadruk and Heavenly Blademaster, he can hold all my Treasure and Blood while Bludgeon Brawl is out.
That comparison of Virtue of Persistence to Debtor’s Knell hit home so hard for me. It was my favorite card for years, but it almost never DID anything all those years I played it, so I sadly just stopped running it. 😢
Virtue of loyalty is stone unplayable, the 2/2 knight doesn’t matter and there are way better ways to get a 1/1 counter on all your creatures, Cathar’s crusade literally has the same mana cost and will actually win you the game
The crew is really missing the value of monster manual. The purpose is not to play it and then drop 8 drops for the next three turns for 2 mana (though that would be nice), it lets you do 2 things: 1. Drop creatures at instant speed, and 2. Maintain the ability to play 2+ spells per turn.
If you can drop Manual on turn 3 after ramp, then on turn four drop a big threat plus also hold up two mana for heroic intervention, a bite, or anything else like that you're way ahead.
I would never go to any kind of event in Florida.
That state is not a safe place.
My jobs hq is in florida and i love going down! Whats so unsafe about it? I never had any issues other than i hate the airport lol
@@jameshogan4679 It's not safe for LGBTQ people.
I know you were only ranking rares and mythics, but Merchant of the Vale deserves its time in the sun. Such and underrated card
Stormkeld Vanguard & Guardian Naga are also hella underrated.
Hearth elemental not only is red draw for cheap, has a high power & toughness creature attached, but also gruul omnath synergy cuz its an elemental. I think the card is a home run for 25 cents.
RE: Giant Killer, the actual reason to run it is because it slots into the white weenie tutor package (Ranger of Eos, Ranger-Captain of Eos, Recruiter of the Guard). Having it work with the weenie draw package (Tocasia's Welcome and friends) is the bonus, what you really want is a way to tutor out removal.
Brazen Borrower is good in 1v1 because true Control decks actually exist there, where you answer all your opponent's threats, while drawing more cards, allowing you to eventually stick a win condition. BB is good as a win condition because it is both a (temporary) answer and win condition on one card, which effectively makes it all 3 things you need in one (answer, card advantage [kinda], and a win con)
This type of deck does not really exist in commander for multiple reasons. For one, having three opponents means you can't answer every threat unless you are playing a massively more powerful deck than everyone else, which is poor form. For another, commander decks may not all win with "infinite combos", but most of them do ramp up in a nonlinear fashion. So while a 1v1 combo deck can get the game into a state where they are reliably just going to be getting more powerful than their opponent every turn, that really isn't the case in commander. You're not going to be able to say "yeah I'll just get control of the game and chip them all down over the course of 20 more turns if they don't realize they've lost and scoop".
I often hear people talk like it's possible to play a 1v1 style control deck in commander and it just makes no sense to me.
I'm going to be a gross Monster Manual defender and say being able to activate it the turn you drop it for 6 mana total in like, Dinosaurs, and get a dinosaur out the same turn you play it, it's really solid. It'll still be around on future turns to continue giving big discounts, and you have a shiny new dino to protect you.
MONSTER MANUAL! compare it to a 4 mana 2 Lands ramp. you play when you get to 4 mana. the next turn, after Land drop, you either have 7 mana or 5 mana, BUT one creature spell per turn cycle has flash (!!) and only costs 2! you make net mana if you play a 5drop.
PLUS you had an adventure attached to it that would curve into the 4drop.
You folks did miss one of my most favorite adventures. Merchant of the Vale! Still not all that high powered, but at one mana to haggle to rummage, and then once in play a 3 mana ability to also rummage. Nice little value engine to help keep a deck moving and nudge certain cards into the graveyard where they belong.
1:18 100% Richard was going to say Card market
I thought he was going to say Card Conduit since they usually lead with it.
Idk it just sounds like he did a slight stutter on the word Commandfest that he was intending to say
I'd love to see the crew each bring some commanders that they'd reccomend playing
Tomer's right about Virtue of Persistence and comparing it to debtor's knell is very appropriate. They are not the staples you might think.
However, debtor's knell was my finisher in an abzhan enchantress deck that ran things like cataclysm and armageddon. Anything that needs way too long to develop an absurd amount of value says stax to me.
I agree that Kellan is probably going to end up one of the top Boros Equipment commanders, probably challenging Wyleth, which puts him at A tier at least. Now, would I play him in non-dedicated equipment or aura decks? Well, there's Osgir, which could take a lightning greaves or Battlemage bracers. He's a hit off of Winota and grabs greaves or skullclamp or something. A lot of Firesong and Sunspeake decks run Sunforger and Mithril coat... I think there are more decks that would be helped by Kellan than harmed by him. So yeah, S tier.
I play the realm cloaked giant in a ton of decks even 5 color ones. I think it's just so good. Many meta's are slow enough that a 5 mana wipe is not that difficult to fit in over a 4 mana one. And for any slower control deck having a big body late game is really great! It's basically a board wipe that draws a card!
Virtue of loyalty is a slam dunk for my mikaeus the lunarch tapper tribal deck. Its niche for sure but for me i was elated to get this!
Kellen is basically a perfect Boros card.
Aura/equipment fetch and combat helper, yep. The first thing one'd fetch is probably Skullclamp or Sword of the Animist.
@@Cyberium Sometimes the only equipment I run in a deck is Skullclamp and I still run Stoneforge to get it, haha
@@Kryptnyt White can use a 1cc Mystic that fetches 0 or 1cc equipments. Steelshaper’s Gift is nice but it’s a spell, not a creature which white could blink and/recur. :D
@@Cyberium Yeah just getting Skullclamp with a creature is a lot better I think, because you can immediately have a body to clamp, and if you already drew skullclamp at least you get something.
@@Kryptnyt WotC won’t make it that easy for white though, not until they ban Skullclamp and design a nerfed version. XD
I love listening to the boys argue fervently for cards they have not and will not play on CC
Bramble Familiar is a god send for Volo decks wanting dorks with different creature types. Bonus points this one returns itself to your hand, so you can still double your nyxbloom in the later game
For 7 mana instead of Virtue of Persistence I would rather cast Breach the Multiverse and put 10 cards in the yard to choose from and get 4 "upkeep triggers" immediately
The green creature with black adventure is super cracked,
Also totally agree Giant killer is hella playable but black virtue is stinky
Bramble Familiar is for reanimator. Early game it ramps, you then bounce it back to your hand to pitch a reanimation target. Then you get to mill and reanimate again. It's a solid B.
29:96 for a budget edh challenge i built a maelstrom wanderer storm deck that only ramp basics and a bunch of mana doubleler as the deck had a bunch of untap all basic lands effects and card draw to keep storming. That is the only deck I can see running this.
Sharing the following as a mono green player:
Bramble Familiar is repeatable adventure with its ability to be back from hand mid blocking. Not the best but it's a good mana sink on ramp decks during the mid game.
Monster Manual is psuedo flash but agree that this does give unwarranted focus on you. Nonetheless it has a home in some decks that will benefit out of its instant play (sadly not cast) of any costed creature for 2.
Emerald Dragon is actually good. 3 mana to counter an ability is highly costed but your in green so you probably have the ramp for it, and there are a lot of non-creature abilities that are worth countering. A 6 mana 4/4 with Flyng and trample is kinda bad, but it becomes very playable when it doesn't actually take a card slot in the deck. I'd give Emerald Dragon a solid B. It might be playgroup dependent a little bit but I definitely see enough non-creature abilities going off to say its worth it. Only other change to their tier list I feel strongly about is Virtue of Knowledge should be an A. Copying an ability you control is super useful, and then doubling ETBs later in the game is also very worth the 5 mana. Worst case it soaks removal for something else on your board because they're afraid of it, which feels bad but enchantment removal is rare enough its likely to stick around for value.
I love watching these lists, becasue half of the time the ratings have the same rationale as my ratings: vibes.
Regarding Virtue of Strength: I put together a Henzie deck with 35 lands that slams Henzie on 3 consistently. 18 of those lands are basics. The adventure is great if you're a creature deck, and is actually very pushed - it's the first one mana Regrowth effect to my knowledge, even if it's limited. So I'm willing to consider it for that purpose, and sometimes it'll net mana late game and that's cool.
Depending on what you consider a regrowth effect, there have been a bunch of 1 mana ones.
@jadegrace1312 Oh? I'm not aware of them. Noxious Revival is the closest I'm aware of but that's a very different effect in practice.
After a Scryfall search there's a bunch of this effect (minus the land part, which is actually very relevant) in black, but the only green one I found is the incredibly limited Rofellos's Gift.
Beanstalker Giant is great in my CMC matters Riku deck. I can copy the ramp and get untapped lands into play. The cmc is high for Calibrated Blast type effects. The creature is not useless if it comes down to topdeck mode.
I dont think they really talked about how the adventures that target for like burn and removal can be lost. If the target gets protected or becomes invalid, the spell doesnt resolve and you dont get the exile and cast later part either.
The one thing I can say about the huge influx of cards is the diversity and utility mid grade cards receive due to synergy.
I personally play a Prowl, Stoic Strategist deck. Very mid level. I love many white adventures. Kill a creature, tap a creature, exile and recast the kill spell, recast the creature for an etb. A fine gear for control. Giant killer has 1 power and draws from mentor of the meek. Tap down the thing I want to exile with Prowl.
I added virtue of strength to my Bant Chulane deck. Was able to cast it on turn 4, which then let me play Vorinclex Voice of Hunger. On turn 5 I was then able to drop MoonShaker Calvary AND Craterhoof Behemoth.
Triple Double mana on a fast mana dork deck might be better than ya think
Watching the guys stuggle to calculate value on giant killer and gumdrop poisoner was hilarious
Alright Tomer now that you've brought the 6 cmc tribal deck up in two podcasts .You gotta play it soon or atleast give us a updated list pretty please 🙏.
for sure you forgot the sonnophore and the whale. these two i can remind for sure. regarding the green virtue, i played it, and the result was kind of insane.
Virtue of Knowledge is great in Atraxa as another Panharmonicon with a different card type. The more the merrier.
So I find a lot of these adventure cards are really just good for certain decks. Bone crusher and brazen borrower are nuts in a deck like Kalamax where it copies the adventure side and then just gives you a body on the otherside. Same goes for virtue of knowledge works amazing for ETB decks. I agree with virtue of persistence that it is bad, after play testing it, I never want to really play it. The point of these cards are just to have a weird spilt cards that are 2 in 1 to give you 101 cards in your deck essentially
I see your Virtue of Persistence and raise you a Grave Betrayal... both cost 7 honking mana for the effect, but I think Betrayal is a much better effect in a multiplayer game, especially in a deck that likes to kill stuff. The 'reainamte at upkeep' isn't actually a great ability for 7 mana, OG Sheoldred was a better effect and most people look at that card squarely as a trap card in anything but Casual. I think it should have been at the endstep that you get the body, but having to wait a whole cycle without having added meaningfully to your board sounds dangerous if you're playing a remotely cutthroat meta. Virtue of Strength is Sorcery that has a terrible Enchantment stapled to it Anything but mono-Green almost never runs enough Basics to care about this (while mono-Green doesn't need to use fetchlands), unless you're using this to combo off (at which point just use anything else, sheesh!).
Bonecrusher is a fascinating card in my Legacy Burn deck, I love having Stomp to keep the card slot from being too clunky, 2 damage isn't much but it can be enough. I don't care about the damage clause very often, but I'm shocked at how useful it is to just run more Burn spells in a Burn deck, yet also run more aggro simultaneously. It rarely feels bad to spend turns burning blockers before playing your Bonecrusher onto an empty/paltry board, and it's removal resistant.
I don't run Beanstalk Giant in many decks, but I do like it in my Mono-Green deck which does in fact care about ramping a lot yet also want a big body sometimes, because the deck uses lots of Trample Anthems. I'd like to point out that Beanstalk finds an untapped Basic, which can be a nice perk sometimes.
Horn of Valhalla is a funny item in Baldur's Gate 1+2, by the time you get it the bodies it makes suck, and the upgraded versions similarly suck. This card isn't terrible, but making x 1/1s for xWW isn't terrible, and the equip ability is 'meh'.
I'm thinking about using Quicksliver Amulet in my Eldrazi deck, I'm not sure if it's really 'good enough', but it has potential if it can cheat out a 10-12 drop. I think I'd consider Monster Manual over it, but I don't know if I love the Adventure mode in that build.
I like Kellan, but Boros Equipment is not the most exciting option out there. I think A+C are a more interesting/exciting build, but Open the Armory in the CZ is pretty sweet for some decks.
Intrepid Hero >>> Giant Killer, Giant Killer is a bad card over time, I think I'd even run Serene Master over it, technically both target to work.
28:30 They got so wrong here. This is so amazing since you just need 3 basics on the field to this be mana eficient.
it went unsaid with the lifelink from Murderous Rider you're at net-0 life loss and you could cast it again if your shuffling and drawing through your deck
Does virtue of knowledge double stuff like Riveteers Overlook? It seems pretty nice if it does, can copy it early and late with the card. Also, imagine copying myriad landscape! there's also stuff other then lands that you can copy to ramp, like burnished hart, sword of Hearth and Home/animist, wayfarer's bauble. it seems a reasonable plan for me, even if it's not on curve ramping is still pretty good for 2 mana
Y’all are underestimating virtue of strength I’ve learned from just jamming nyxbloom that it’s a free spell or a ritual that wins you the game the majority of the time. and I’m willing to warp my mana base to at least try it out a second copy of nyxbloom.
Maybe I love Green too much but I feel like it isn't that hard to have 4-5 basics out by the time you cast this which effectively doubles your mana immediately and can be even better if you have more basics. I'm excited to try it.
Devouring Sugarmaw plays way stronger than it looks, it didn't even make this tier list but it's better than nearly all the cards on it
21:21 Crim going off on one of his rambles!
Its the cheapest, well, its the same as the rest. There's one that costs more, no two that do 😂
Realm Cloak Giant goes very well with the new Temur Adventure Commander
It's pretty narrow, but I didn't hear it mentioned. You can cascade into bramble familiar and cast the 7 mana half for free even if the spell that cascaded isn't CMC >7, one more point in it's favor vs beanstalk giant.
Fairly certain that was changed after the release of Kaldheim and shenanigans with Valki...
@@Trisket just double checked, an adventure while cascading only has the mana value of the creature. bloodbraid elf into bramble familiar will let you fetch quest
I feel seen for the swords to plowshares comment 😂 But also giant killer rules, shout out to Richard on that one.
Persistence looks bad to me as well. Spending a slot on a -3-3 seems awful and the debtor is not quick enough. Its better to use rise of dark realms or any cheap reanimator or sheoldred. This is not a B like the other ones cause its not an auto in reanimator.
31:22 green one… kodama of the west tree 🌲 🎉
6:06 it's very niche,but in Obosh Burn its having a 5 mana "draw 20-50% of your deck" with a shitty removal side as well, but still a removal side.
I’m surprised that Woodland Acolyte wasn’t looked at. It’s really good in Bant blink decks like Lagrella or Chulane.
So wrong on brazen borrower. Evasive flash attacker with a tempo instant attached to it. Tymna loves this card, edric loves this card, Raffine loves this card, all faerie and rogue decks love this card, errant and giada loves this card. Brazen borrower is the most versatile adventure card on this list. Gets you out from under a stax piece on the end step of your opponent’s turn going into your turn where you win the game. I’ve got your back Krim!
They dont seem to play that style of game a lot, so I can see why they dont rate it highly. I def. See your point tho. It is efficient and versatile, but it does not take you over the top.
People need to see how bramble familiar plays in standard. You don't care if it gets ganked. It's a good dork but it's a good 7 mana spell. If you get to use both sides, great! I think this should go in any deck that wants mana dorks.
I thought it was funny that Beluna wasn't mentioned, but it is only played in Adventure decks.
Illithid Harvester is definitely a C. You don't have to play the adventure section. I feel like some of the cards here were treated more like sagas in discussion. The power of adventures is the card advantage and choice.
Will the other adventure cards be brought up or is this a one off video? Ty for the video guys it was fun listening to your opinion
I think bonecrusher giant is pretty good in Torbran
I’m with Crim on Brazen Borrower. You guys are crazy. 😂
Will Seth have forbidden orchard and dowsing dagger in his hylda deck? I've done a quick search on hylda decks and found most are not playing those and it seems so wrong to not auto-include them in hylda. Even Akroan Horse i think is probably right to include in the deck. Hunted phantasm maybe as well
Underrating the beanstalk, kodama's reach doesn't swing for lethal. A bit like NBFCs the giant occupies two positions in a ramp deck, being a threat and a ramp source.
Think Shrouded Shepherd might be a sleeper uncommon from the new set, Shepherd of the Flock is one of my personal favorites, and Decadent Dragon is just so cool. I want to give Altar of Bhaal a shot but it's not legal on MTGO.
I am late to this video but I find that Scalding Viper didn't even make the discussion sad. I play it in my Ghyrson deck.
Not sure it changes the rating out of D, but Illithid Harvester is a must include in Hinata decks, granted a lot of mediocre cards become very strong in Hinata...
I wish you talked about how good the cards might be in the gorion deck, as he's an adventure commander.
I was looking forward to making a Wise Mentor deck IF the adventures were good enough in W.O.E. but they just weren't good enough.
I will say beanstalk is good in a voltron deck as a backup after your commander has been blown up a couple times
no tierlist, do the elemination thing pls! It was so great.
Elimination would be super good with this. Having chat GPT tell Tomor Emerald Dragon sucks would make me so happy
I find virtue of strength to be a good paring with cards like nexos which give basic lands the ability to tap for two colorless mana for a spell with x in it. Since virtue says triple the amount of mana produced by that land it lets you generate 6 colorless mana for each basic. Not great overall but good for x spell decks. I’m going to add it to my magus Lucia Kane deck
The Twining Twins *really* should be in D. In the discussion everyone got convinced that you don't play that so it deserves D. Keeping it above the dragon was just a meme at that point... same for the Monster Manual.
Woodland Acolyte is an easy A.
Monster Manual doesn’t need big things, because you get enough value just by having instant speed options.
Tlincalli Hunter helps you cast other adventures, so it’s NOT THE SAME as Finale of Devastation. Hearing that comparison made me cringe.
Decadent Dragon, against top-deck tutors, is just a second Opposition Agent.
Bramble Familiar can be exploited by Bring to Light.
Illithid Harvester is good in morph decks.
I'm with Krim, Brazen Borrower doesn't deserve this level disrespect in EDH. It's a niche card to be sure but bounces are occasionally useful and the creature half has relevant types and keywords.
I legitimately love giant killer. I want what tomer is smoking. Hylda in historic brawl is hilarious.
the blue, white and black virtues look like decent cards that you can run in many Timmy strats. If you're trying to build the most optimized deck none of them are cEDH good but even in a high power table most of the time the virtues are good enough to play (except the black and green ones they're too much mana to do nothing on the enchantment side).
When are we getting that Boros Equipment Commander tier list?
I like virtue of Persistence, the adventure side synergizes with the enchantment side pretty well, and so I think it actually works in most decks with black (In STANDARD) In commander, the green one is the best, and is the one I would add to green decks.
They continue to undervalue basic lands
Virtue of courage plus harmonic ptodigy plus electrostatic field. Just leaving this thought right here😊