Should We Ban The One Ring? | Commander Clash Podcast 113
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2023
- Does The One Ring have to get booted from Commander Clash? We discuss!
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You should definitely make an one ring week as farewell video, which everyone builds a deck around abusing the one ring
thats a great idea
YESSS
drafna
I was going to suggest the same thing. Every deck built around finding all the ways to interact with your own and opponent’s Rings. Cloning, stealing, animating, exiling, proliferating, whatever.
Definitely this. Try to push the one ring to its breaking point lol. I guess everyone is a clone deck that week
Can I just say I appreciate the added production value in showing the cards they are talking about and giving the audience little graphic about the crews positions. They are not intrusive and they help me understand what is going on.
in my opinion u should let the ring unbanned for this season and wait for stat episode
and see where to go from there
if the meta shakes out every deck using the one ring just ban it for the next season
Gosh this makes me think of my play group. We want a life total app that tracks game history so we can look at our stats. I wish an app like this existed.
yeah also that would be fun
@@TH3M4X48 it doesn't exist butyou can doit on an excell on your phone
This is a good idea
This.
I think you guys should play it for the rest of the season, then review the stats for the one ring. And see how you feel then.
Shadowspear is one answer that wasn't mentioned in the video. It's colorless, low mana cost, almost always does something even if you're not using the activated ability and is easy to tutor for. Only downside is you need another card to remove the ring.
This right here, the card does sooooo much. It should be in every deck!
Depends on your budget I guess
I'm with Seth on this one. Ban worthy for Commander Clash based off the standards in place for banning cards. It's generically very good and game warping, even when not built around abusing it, plus the times it has come into play the person playing it ends up wanting to find a way to abuse it. Suppose that is pretty flavorful given the card in question.
I think it being flavorful is the best reason to keep it. I would much rather have "The One Ring" warp a format than some random monkey, or a card based on paying taxes.
It's basically Necropotence or Yawgmoth's Bargain except colorless so you can jam it in every single deck, and also protects you for a turn for some reason. Truly a ridiculous card.
The thing I noticed about card draw engines are, they are win/win whether or not they are removed immediately.
If you remove them, your opponent wastes your removal spell that should of been used on the actual threat they would of drawn. If you don’t remove them, then they help your opponent draw their wincon+several others.
I think a good solution for handling House Bans would be to use the Stats episode at the end of a season. Take a few suspect cards, like the One Ring, and check the stats. How many times did it break the game? How many times was it run? Was it seen in game? Then use those stats to analyze your ban list in between seasons. This sets the positive example of using data and periodic analysis to make a decision, rather than a gut reaction.
I've been playing with this card in a group where two out of four of us have it in our decks. And it really echoes the reason why people like the RC say primetime is banned. It really became about how we can gain control of other people's one rings. It can draw so many cards compared to alternatives and that an extremely good rate. I really just do not like how generically good this card is.
if we think about formats past commander it's even worse, I know a lot of people on arena especially those in historic want the card to be restricted but that would only make the issue worse.
it's very strange, but I've never considered taking out cards that were too powerful for my decks, but the one ring has almost made me do that. in an average power deck I will usually end up discarding to hand every turn after drawing five or six or seven or eight cards every turn.
Rhystic Study is ultimately a punisher card with the tools to work around it baked in. By comparison the One Ring has a bunch of protection aspects that restricts options of players to respond to it. Considering color identity and the like it's a more egregious card for sure.
The One Ring has its counterplay laid out specifically too. It literally kills the user if they get greedy. Punish their greed. Stall them out. There's no argument for Rhystic Study not being in an entirely different league of power. It's just way stronger. Not only in that Rhystic has no downside, but also in that the literal effect of the card is better. The floor of Rhystic Study is a 1 mana tax on every spell everyone but you casts, and that's already way too strong. Rhystic Study is, in effect, ramp that gets exponentially stronger the longer the game goes on. Again, as the floor.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 the downside is the punisher aspect. The asymmetric sphere of resistance can be avoided when needed, and the draw a card advantage can be negated by opponents. It’s the same as browbeat, but more favourably scaled. In general saying a card has no downside means little; there’s no downside to a vanilla creature. So what is that criticism trying to say?
@@BludMun It's hilarious that you tell me why I'm correct with a tone that suggests you think it contradicts what I'm saying.
MtG is a game of resources. If your opponents' spells cost 1 more mana to cast, you effectively ramped yourself 1 mana per spell cast per turn. It's a massive advantage, arguably as big as the card draw itself. That's the actual reason why Rhystic Study is OP. If it didn't have the option to pay the 1 it'd be WEAKER. As-is, Rhystic Study is a card that reliably puts you ahead of your opponents in multiple different resources, by a pretty significant amount.
@@timbombadil4046 Downsides are put on cards as a balancing feature, to lower their average power level. A vanilla creature might very well prevent you from taking combat damage for several rounds. It won't draw you cards. When you are comparing two cards for the way they accomplish similar objectives, you must analyze the cost at which they do so. Downsides are part of cost.
This is black's core gameplay mechanic in general, messing with downsides as a way to supplement cost for balancing purposes.
Saying a card has no downside is saying it's always good to cast it. A card that has a downside will inherently have times where you don't want to cast it.
The One Ring does, like rhystic study/smothering tithe warp the game around it in my personal experience. Richard also makes a fantastic point that TORing, akin to Prime Time is the target of every artifact clone/steal effect etc because everyone at the table wants it. It's a tad annoying but that is the destiny of powerful cards.
I'd rather have the one ring banned and primetime unbanned.
in the current era of magic The one ring is so much better than primetime
@@Sean.Thomas2gotta call cap on that one.
The roundabout lore accuracy of everyone wanting their own at cost of their own resources and theme is almost on brand lol
@@Sean.Thomas2 The One Ring has one of the biggest downsides of any "powerful" card. It gets you killed just as often as it wins you the game, unless you specifically built your deck around mitigating its massive downside. If you're not running a blink deck or a life gain deck, it's a huge liability to cast it willy nilly.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 I mean casting it is never the issue. Even activating it once or twice is not really the issue. Its about people who get greedy and decide to draw 5 or even 6 cards, and doing so without the ability to close out a game in a turn or two. The issue is the most decks want to be running some good way to close out a game in a turn or two, be that infinite combo or something like Craterhoof.
On the topic of something "fun for viewers" vs "fun for players"..
I think Sol Ring is the perfect example. It's fun to go off from turn 1 occasionally, so I put up with my enemies getting to do it, because I occasionally want to do it.
However, I think in the commander clash format, where you are playing new decks every week, I would never want to see someone just go off with sol ring.
Genuine banger episode, everyone did a good job of arguing their points and I think the meta discussion of your goals as content creators in curating your games vs an at home or store playgroup curating their meta was really fascinating as a look behind the scenes too, definitely points where it felt less like a podcast Ep and more like being a fly on the wall of y’all just discussing your meta which was really interesting.
I feel like Crim's argument boils down to "if you play exactly the same as me everything is fine" which I feel is a poor piece of rhetoric. I do understand that if everyone plays more removal or counterspells it is easier to get rid of things, but at the same time having to play specific removal for one card seems a little egregious.
@@j_g_t6091"play the game how I do or you're a crybaby for complaining about anything" is basically crims entire personality. An internet troll that never grew out of it.
I'd like to know how much Metagaming goes on. Obviously you each know who is playing what commander and how they tend to build. Also you apparently dont go hard and target weaknesses. If I know everyone is playing red but me, I'm definitely running Chill. But a Hydroblast would not be out of the question if it also has some synergy or theme connection.
@@bye1551 If you want to interact with powerful cards, play interaction. its simply true. if you do not want to and would rather play a solitaire style flashy game, go for it. preferably without being mean, that does not advance the conversation
Paradox Engine was banned for the exact same reasons Seth brought up this episode, and in casual games its often a do nothing artifact the turn it comes down. The One Ring actually does something that turn and is almost more powerful inaa general setting. I'd definitely support a house ban for more entertaining games.
Salt week was great because everyone was playing salty decks and knew that was the plan. Its like cEDH; its fine if everyone is on the same level and knows what they are signing up for; but randomly coming across that kind of deck in the wild is a different story.
More broadly, I think One Ring is fine from a power level but is a design mistake and unfun play pattern. Much like constantly being asked if I want to pay the one....
Lore Accurate Ruling Burn It in Fire
Really like the editing on this one!
Im with seth on this; no fast mana in casual, and for clash cards like one ring ban. Play coveted jewel instead
Salt week was great because it was a really funny game and it worked out well. I don’t think you guys would have the same reaction every time
Love how seth goes "What are other cards that are like this, that go in every deck, other than fast mana?" and absolutely nobody answered the question
Looking at the question from a content creators perspective, played straight, it seems most powerful when you are behind and that could be a nice catch up mechanism. But it just leads to extremely uninteractive games when you are trying to abuse it.
I just think it's really boring even played straight. Teferi's Protection is a fun gotcha moment, there's something especially unfun about these instant archenemy/get out of jail free cards that also just cycle to me though, idk if it's just me. People always go out of their way to think of fun jank for these kinds of cards because they are powerful, there's no other reason.
@@Spaced92 I don't think there's a way to legitimately argue that Teferi's Protection isn't just the same card. They each have benefits and drawbacks compared to each other, but the most relevant effect of both is the same.
Id prefer your housebanlist over the actual one to be honest.
I wish it was more "official" in public card shop games I want to play with this ban list, it no question makes for better games of casual.
And side note, if Dockside isnt on the banned list, why have a ban list. Maybe some of these guys and commander vs. crew needs to be on the rules committee, or a second social/casual ban list.
Sure I'll just play the power 9 instead lmao
A good comparison is coveted jewel, where one progresses the game with mana and card draw (like a super monarchy) and gets people attacking and dying and thinking about how to play while the other just slows the game to a halt every time I've seen it. The game warps around those card in both scenarios but one can actually see the game progress, the other is just one sided until they die.
I've spent an entire week going through (many of) your podcasts (even ones with bad audio!) and I have to say I've become a fan. I love these discussions.
On the general thread of improving Clash videos - i would love it if you guys started calling out the cards and actions you play so I can listen passively
If half the group has decided this is a staple that they put in every deck, it does shift the focus to be about the One Ring. When that happened back in prime Prime Time days, it was all about who could get the most triggers. But I think the distinction now is that basically every deck benefits about the same from the One Ring but some decks benefitted from Primeval Titan a whole lot more than others. A mono blue deck that cloned a Primeval Titan and got 2 islands is way less problematic than a deck that can get 2 strong utility, fixing, or mana positive lands like Cabal Coffers or Serra's Sanctum. In the interest of good content, banning makes sense to prevent the viscious cycle of purely focusing on it but I do not think the average play group or random pod will be so single minded.
The One Ring is different but my experience with a card like this was spore frog. My play group meta was mainly focused on combat damage and 1 player had the ability to spam spore frog thus resulting is very slow and drawn out games that if you just didnt find removal at the right time meant combat damage wasnt an option.
The table basically chose that deck as archenemy and when it was played was focused down. I felt bad but at the same time it forever changed our meta. We have more burn now and removal. In the end our table ended up policing loops by acknowledging if you truly want to play that way then we will do our best to not let it happen again. For whoever actually reads this yes i know the ring is harder to remove and better than spore frog but thays my only real relation.
Cards like this are fine. I agree with Crim, it’s not an absolute game ending card. My budget decks with “bad cards” easily competes with my friends high dollar cards. One removal spell or exile effect just ends their game plan. Sure you gotta be able and willing to add those to your deck, but unless they consistently tutor for it or just always seem to have it anyway can still be played around. If you have a personal issue with a powerful card then consider swapping out a few cards that don’t see much play and add interaction. It’s not hard, not expensive (unless you have to have the most expensive everything cards) and it gives the game longevity and more fun interactions
The One Ring caused my favorite commander game moment this year. I spent 3 turns, countering and stifling.... not the One Ring but the attempts of my opponent who controlled it to remove it from the board so they didn't die from it. It finally killed them. Each time I stopped them I loudly proclaimed "THE RING TEMPTS YOU"! The entire table including the person affected were in stitches.
I thought about buying this card for my LotR food deck as an upgrade. Reading it, I see you can play it early for card draw, or play it later for a fog effect. I can see how reusing the ring repeatedly would be fairly salty inducing. I think if it cost 1 more mana to cast or some amount of mana to activate it would be 100% fine but it's VERY strong for the 4 mana, and especially because of indestructible.
It’s the indestructible. It could be two mama for all I care, but you can’t remove it
@@Garl_Vinland White has 0 issues with it, blue has counterspells, green has several good options. Black has always had trouble with artifacts indestructible or not. Red is really the only color that has clean answers to most artifacts that dont answer TOR, and lets be real, most of them are only running Vandalblast for that role anyway. Being able to or unable to remove it really isnt the issue.
The only point I couldn't get over is Seth proclaiming it as a staple and then the entire crew acknowledging that most players don't actually play it; which seems like the exact opposite of a staple.
It would be a staple if it wasn't 60 dollars and hard to get.
I do want the One Ring banned because it's kinda boring if the table is not equipped to deal with it. BUUUUT, for commander clash, I would like y'all to continue using it for the season and see if you have any creative brews with it. I know it practically fits every deck but in that sense, I want to see it in the Clash more just in different decks. It makes sense to keep it going this season since it came out during this time. And then, if there's gonna be a ban, it makes more sense to do it by next season.
No idea about the wild because i only play in a private playgroup where no one has it, for clash i completly agree with you.
Unfortunately the casual players - Richard, Seth, Tomer, Phil - would make cool brews with it and show cool fun things, but Crim would just play his typical spike decks with it and it would be so boring
@@adamfiliatreault3393 I don't necessarily agree. Crim keeps the table in check and maintains the balance. Am I looking forward to Crim's One Ring brew? Not really. His brews are more interesting when he makes aggro decks. A spike deck with the One Ring is pretty boring and doesn't need to be showcased anymore. But I do want him there when people play the one ring otherwise it would be a boring table. When value decks like the ones Phil/Seth make go off, I want them to go off after overcoming adversity. Value engine games are boring to watch when someone just goes off and no one can even touch them.
Also, Crim is pretty casual. I mean he uses 1:1 spot removal. Countering/control decks at his speed belongs in casual. His decks can't even touch competitive.
@@shinobu-39 all Crim plays are the same, unfair, blue/black spike decks with one or two cards to meet the flavour requirements. I find any game with him to be frustrating, especially because he always focus fires the most casual player - Tomer
@@adamfiliatreault3393 When he plays blue/black, I agree and find the flavor lacking but his red/white/green decks are pretty cool. But calling blue/black spike decks unfair is an unfair assessment. I understand if it was some stax, narset-wheel shenanigans but Crim is playing pretty basic control and that's something that should be allowed at any table. It's a card game designed for people to interact. Interaction is casual and the responsible thing to do.
I do agree that Crim does go after Tomer a bit too much but 3/4 of the time, it's the correct decision. You always go after the person who's ahead. It makes sense to go after Tomer because he's the one who's usually doing well. That is praise for both sides - Tomer is building decks well and Crim is doing proper threat assessment. When Crim is not in the pod, some games are boring in the sense that it's just the person leading doing things for several turns while the others struggle to even make a board. And we all know we can't count on Richard to play spot removal. Tomer and Crim end up at odds because they're both responsible players with good threat assessment. Phil's value decks lack defense so he tends to get stifled the most but lately, his defensive deck building has improved which is why he won all those off-season games. That is with control on the table. Those were much more entertaining games.
I understand people don't like control. And that's fine. If you don't want it in your pod, then make that rule. But control (at this level) is casual and it keeps most games balanced. I don't play control myself but I can sense my own pod's disdain when I'm doing my value/combo but no one can even interact with any of my pieces. I'd rather win after people try to stop me.
Tomer said it. The issue with one ring is the same of the sol ring. As you mentioned, it goes into EVERY deck. So it becomes boring, because a cool mechanic gets overshadowed. I would say ban it, unless it is on theme - e.g artifacts, lort or Seth's favorite archetype: card draw theme
Like always Tomer is arguing a non issue. Ring CAN go in every deck. It does NOT going in EVERY deck. More often than not you will never see your One Ring. It will just as often as not sit at the bottom half of your deck. Tomer just sucks at threat assessment and hates having to prepare for things.
@johnlopez6877 these are dumb accusations out of left field
There is no world where The One Ring and Sol Ring are comparable in any way. Especially not in that particular way. Not putting Sol Ring in your deck flat out makes it weaker, no matter what your deck is. There are a very very large number of decks that would actively not want The One Ring. And that's just talking about ones that don't want it. There are also the many that would want it if they didn't already just have better options.
This is one of the best episodes you guys have ever done.
Completely off topic:
The Bath Song is a sleeper staple for the casual EDH game.
I would love to see each member play it on commander clash and give an over all rating.
I give it a solid A.
Low commitment & low risk
High reward & versatility
Thanks! Haven't heard about the card prior and now have taken a look at it. Not bad!
@@Nathanael_Forlornexact same haha!
The mention of using exile removal is something I find very important, I massively prefer exile-based removal unless I am removing multiple targets, for example I have a Sheoldred, Whispering One deck that uses discard effects or edicts that hit everyone, and I will use exile target creature or planeswalker type cards as my only single target removal options
Ban at end of season so I can see Seth run it in every deck, tutor for it, and troll Crim
Great episode, loved hearing your thoughts about the one ring. It's funny how just the ring existing warps everything around it, just like the flavor intended lol.
Discussions like this are good for individual playgroups who want to curate a specific type of experience. However, talks like this are exhausting and polarizing and are one of the main reasons I just decided to go full into cEDH.
I think thats fair, and also, ... how the heck do you have conversations like this for a public game?.. chat for 1 hour each on the 7-10 cards that arnt on the banned list but (probably should be) are impossible to play fairly in a casual/social game.
@@nathand6467 and every deck is a 7 on top of that haha
I think seth and tomer are absolutely on the money here. TOR is a problem for the same reason sol ring is. It becomes nigh unbeatable in decks that can repeatedly bounce it. I disagree with rhystic and smothering being on the ban list, but i love that seth is self-aware enough to know he is the reason for it lmao.
Spending 4+ mana per turn to only prevent attacks and targeting isn't that strong. Like, it doesn't even stop you from losing to gray merchant. It doesn't protect itself either. And if you're blinking it instead of bouncing it, you avoid having to spend the 4 mana each time, but you also don't get the most powerful effect it has. Like... I can think of several 3 mana black enchantments that are better than a perpetually bouncing TOR.
I have a rhystic study in almost every blue deck. And almost everyone I play against plays the tax and I rarely draw a card. I feel like if your play group doesn't play properly against a card, that is a literally a issue with playgroup and not the card itself.
From my perspective in the audience, watching seth try to dig with the one ring when he was down was super entertaining.
We have stax routinely in our group and I think it has made for a healthier group. Slows down the “unfair” strategies and creates a new group challenge to overcome every week. The wins move around the table and we just local meta to answer. Keeps it dynamic.
Try a comparison vs. necropotence. Necro lets you pay however much to draw that many cards, whereas the one ring doesn't. I get indestructable and protection from everything is huge, but isn't necro equally cool or possibly more sweet?...because you can pump lots of life in a necro to find answers in a clutch situation?
I would let it stay for the rest of the season and reevaluate at the end. It could be like a cyclonic rift type thing where it's usually fine but you might want a break from it.
This is one to look forward to!
I've watched mtggoldfish for longer than I can remember and clash since episode 1 season 1. I've always enjoyed seeing the themes you guys play and I like seeing you incorporate these powerful cards into those themes because they have a spot due to being on theme. I think banning it due to it always being good hurts the ability of the content to reach its potential in that way. I at the very least would like for you guys to accept each other breaking the ban list to fulfill a good flavor fit in a deck that a card like the one ring fits into perfectly. I think of it similarly to Seth restricting his own use of alchemy cards when playing in historic; he doesn't do it often, but some of them are perfect for some weird corner case interaction
I would like to see how you play around cards like rhystic study. I think it's a valuable lesson to see how other pods especially more knowledgeable and experienced players deal with these staples that show up everywhere.
You play rhystic study. I flash in orcish bow masters. No I don't pay the 1. Yes i ammas 1 and ping your dome.
I just wached the episode Richard talked about here where he had a ”janky Dockside deck” and it was just a Cedh deck whether or not he realized it. Full of tutors and the Underworld Breach Dockside combo.
your house ban list's goals are actually EXACTLY what the goal should be for the community as a whole. entertaining fun games are the point of commander... fast mana and omega advantage cards that are leaps and bounds beyond other things totally suck because if somebody gets it first they either get dunked or they dunk everybody else. those aren't very fun games to play or to watch.
EDIT: the one ring isn't fun to watch IMO. it's just a boring power card that's too good even when used fairly and is way too flexible with highs that are outrageous.
EDIT2: Ugin is pretty bad and slow as hell in A LOT of decks and situations... and is funnily enough bad against the one ring which can just draw you back into the game to outpace the other players post-sweep...
EDIT3: Crim never sees the problem with any card lol sooo... not sure his opinion on what to ban should be equally weighed as other opinions lol also... should just put up a community poll to find out what viewers actually want to see happen with this right? if the ban lists are being chose for entertainment?
Throwing my hat in to say Ban It.
It warps every game it touches, regardless of whether it's too powerful or not.
I like to watch just normal games. That's why my favorite tend to be the new commander builds. The themes don't take over too much.
White: Revoke Existence, Return to Dust, Altar's Light, Banishing Coils, Fate Forgotten, Forsake the Worldly, True Love's Kiss, Angelic Purge, Dust to Dust, Ironwrights Cleansing
Red: Shattering Blow, Into the Core, Cast into the Fire, Chaos Warp
Blue: Resculpt, Ravenform, Counter magic
Green: Fade into Antiquity, Shoot Down, Bear Down
A lot of these cards are very bad normally and just proves that you'd have to Warp your deck around the fact that you have to deal with other people playing this overpowered card
If I run targeted removal. It is exile, 1 mana or a counterspell. Otherwise i run 4 boardwipes
@@efnfen Yes. And the problem with going down this rabbit hole, anyone (except Crim) who has been playing the format for any length of time realizes, is that you can't have a perfect answer for everything at all times. People do not want to feel forced into playing BlueX control for every deck. You force so many archetypes out of the format if this is the meta you actively push.
Seth : The "research" that says Sol Ring wins you less games was done very unscientifically and should be thrown in the trash.
Also One Ring should probably go just because it goes in every single deck,
Also also for the record I think interactive games where people just don't pop off are more entertaining than people just doing whatever they want >.>
It literally doesn't go in every deck. It takes a niche deck to make it powerful. Most decks it's a double edged sword that loses games just as often as it wins them.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 if you are basing that on the command zone numbers they are heavily flawed and unreliable. That whole thing has done more harm than good
@@RyuPlaneswalker I'm basing it on a basic understanding of fundamental strategy, because self-reported numbers of what people are choosing to do is inherently flawed and unreliable as a concept.
Already voted. Think it sends a message to just promptly ban it. Take a stand against ridiculous cards!
I voted to ban it after the season is over. I actually did skip through a bit during the episode where Crim was looping it because it was a really boring play pattern and I didn't feel any tension just resignation. I know you can obviously answer it but you can also answer the answers (protecting it or making copies at instant speed) but if you ask me whether I want to see a game revolve around The One Ring or something actually dynamic like Coveted Jewel I'll pick the jewel every time. There's also the deck slots the answers take up which reduce the fun cards you put in (only really applies to Seth and Tomer because Crim likes having a lot of answers and Richard will have fun if he gets to pants the Ring player).
No one in my pod even has a The One Ring to play. I love seeing the cool stuff that can come from playing it but I totally get the understanding of it being game warping, but I kind of agree with Crim in the sense that there are a LOT of bombs that fill a similar role. The idea of it being possible for it to show up in every deck doesn't mean it will but if it does, doesn't that just mean it's another of the bombs for that deck? Like it saves that player but not their board, so I don't even think it's necessarily as bad as some other protection spells that exist. The drawing with it just helps deck with weaker draw stay relevant with like blue and green draw heavy decks.
I think the commander clash crew are very good at self regulating themselves in favour of entertaining and non repetitive content. Finding more thematic means of card draw is the branding of these decklists and great to see. I like the conscious "watchlist" approach to cards like Cyclonic Rift, and feel the One Ring should be treated similarly.
Personally for myself, it came up multiple times in this conversation, Teferi's Protection is my biggest "groan" card. It is biggest cheap-copout, catch all protection spell to any permanent and the player that is near impossible to play around. And for entertainment purposes, it literally treats a player as affectively not in game. Players cant team up against the powerful protected player, teferi's protection near guarantees that player will survive to their untap step.
I just wanna remind people about crush contraband, I play it in every white deck, 2 for 1, instant speed, takes care of artifacts and enchantments, which for some reason i dont see people run enough answers for, there isnt a single game where this spell wont have juicy targets, it lets you keep your stuff and just remove the biggest problems so its not like a board whipe where youre just slowing down the game, yeah its only 1 card but idk why i dont see it more, i feel like most people would say because its 4 cmc but id argue that most impactful artifacts and enchantments are around the same cost.
I like the idea of cards being printed to make other cards, like a slightly higher CMC removal spell, better
That is weird. Enchantments tend to be the most powerful card type overall. I can understand not running dedicated artifact removal, but enchantments will just break you if you let them.
I think the content part is the biggest thing. As the audience, we can see what's in everyone's hands, and even check the decklists before watching the games. I think it's going to be one of those "Is he gonna draw it?" cards that if we know it's there then it can be easy to just expect it to come in and change the game in a big way. Kinda how my Breya deck went with my play group. I had to change up how I used her in the deck because everyone expected me to just gun down every creature they played to protect myself, so they'd come after me as soon as she came in... You remove one threat and suddenly everyone gets REAL defensive lol... The One Ring is the same, it COULD win you the game, so they HAVE to stop you, even if you play it and it finds the answer to save the table or you'd be dead without it. I don't think you need to ban it, but I feel like building to beat it is also wrong. If the former prevents the later, ban it for variety if nothing else.
One ring in my play group hasnt been a problem since the first time we saw it, nobody in my group runs a particularly large amount of removal. All it took was switching up some of our removal options and it hasnt been a problem since.
I think one thing not discussed is that it feels like more of a theme break than other similar cards because of how thematic the card is. Cyclonic Rift can go in any blue deck because its just a blue card. The One Ring feels weird in a theme deck because its explicitly lord of the rings themed.
(That isn't to say all lotr cards feel out of place, but since its so iconic, and combined with all the other reasons in the video, it ends up feeling more of a theme-break)
My instinct is to keep it reserved for the all-in sweaty decks and games with my groups, but I would personally like you to keep it for the season just so I can see what it does with actual data, from some players who play reasonable decks but have a higher skill level than my own group.
What i think you should do is only run it if the deck really synergizes with the commander like a Rowan deck, because of how it synergizes with the life loss.
Or tap and untap synergies like hylda.
But if you are just running one ring just to run the one ring because its good, no dont do that
Or grouphug
That's generally how I feel about MtG in general. I believe every deck should have a theme, and you should stick to it, especially if sticking to it lowers the deck's power level.
So far, I've got a 2-1 record in games where I cast The One Ring. Last time I did, it singlehandedly put me in the winning position because my friends seemed to be overlooking how many cards I was drawing off it (drew 21 cards off it by the time the game ended). Have yet to face off against TOR, so I'm curious to see how that would pan out.
Price definitely matters for the acceptable nature of cards. Because most people don't proxy (yet) the unreachable price of cards is what impacts people's perceptions. Because most people never experience playing against things like Dockside. If Dockside is ever 2 dollars you are going to see an immediate demand for it to be banned. TOR will be in the same boat.
Jeweled lotus same. Should go in 95% of decks, but I have never seen it, mostly on price. My main dislike for the recent Rhystic Study reprint. Now theres more of them kicking around from people who opened them at pre-release, and I have seen more. And the main problem with that card isnt power level, its the likely hood of making the game worse between people forgetting the trigger and interrupting turns to remind people of the trigger and the overall quality of the and net fun of the game likely to go down especially with newer players in the game. Just ban these from casual/public games.
Good talk, I do wish you dived deeper into case studies: each instance it came up and the effect. Go through them one by one and discuss. But still good. I’m pro ban
The way to get around the protection One Ring grants is black life drain, not unpreventable damage.
I do think conversations like this are why despite enjoying casual commander a lot, cEDH with an actual consistent goal and coherent ideology that people agree to when playing the format just makes more sense to me with far fewer logical inconsistencies.
34:04 one issue is that it doesn’t win by itself. It draws cards and then you use your own cards to win. You can’t win just by drawing and taking damage. You draw into your wincon so you’re showing off the deck
It does lose by itself though.
Keep it for the season for the stats! Could be very interesting
As a sheoldred the apocalypse player damage on draw is a good way to deal with it as well.
I am in the side of ban it next season and let it run its course for whats left of this season. That way we can still see some cool brews with it before its basically silenced until you do a season or game with no bans.
Could also have some games where you play pauper commander. That gets you around banning The One Ring, because anything other than common (uncommon commanders) is not allowed in those games.
I have like 15 decks all with weird themes. I’ll play a more flavorful replacement if it fits the theme. But that’s why the one ring is in my Sam/Frodo and Aragorn decks. It’s flavorful card draw for those but thematically it doesn’t fit into any of my other decks. Plus a lot of those other decks have card draw engines in the command zone. Most commanders draw cards these days
Not only was Salt week my favorite commander clash, I love playing those games and wish others did, the back and forth and interaction is what makes magic... magic to me.
Yeah, but stax if often used not to stop the threaths but to delay them, and most ppl value more their time, than the health of the games. I am an in between where stax don't hurt me, and I will play it in ocassion, but prefer interaction on my terms rather than needing the ouphe to stick around
a bunch of cry babies lol
Seth should play Teferi's Protection, Cyclonic Rift, and The One Ring every game for the rest of the season for the lols. And loop all 3.
My solution to Sol Ring (and the one ring if it shows up) was to make a Thada Adel deck that just steals it from my opponents. Never gets old.
Called it instantly that Crim was going to go with the classic "uh there's other strong stuff in the format therefore this format-warping uber staple that goes in literally every deck is also totally fine" take
Yeap, Crim rocks, his decks look like actual decks you would see in random playgroups.
@@SifSehwanmost playgroups aren't griefer trolls
That's literally not true of The One Ring, and you are extremely bad at the game if you think it is. It fits in niche decks as a power card, but in most decks it's extremely risky as generic card draw.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 If you don't see how price is the only thing keeping it from showing up everywhere, you are extremely bad at evaluating card design through the perspective of casual format health and diversity
@@alfred8936 I'm not sure if you realize this, but most of the time if your life total reaches 0 you lose.
In terms of diversity: Only niche decks make The One Ring a powerful inclusion. Most decks see it as a double-edged sword that there are much safer options to replace it with.
In terms of casual format health: The One Ring is fair and balanced in casual. It only actually gets annoying or oppressive in sweaty tryhard builds that abuse it. Casual is the place where its presence is healthiest.
@crim is right, play more answers. Interaction is fun and entertaining and can speed up durdley games.
I can't believe I agree wholly with Crim's point, exile removal is always the right choice, while I disagree with his point regarding the card's inclusion itself.
The biggest problem with the one ring is that its indestructible and colorless. The up side of it is that it up's Whites relevance in the commander format cause its the only color that can remove it reliably short of a few fringe cases. If it had its abilities but could just be taken out by the already common artifact removal than it would still be strong, but more fair. That said, it'll be interesting to see the rest of the season.
It's 4 mana draw 1 on the turn it comes down. And if you use it more than 3-4 turns you put yourself in serious jeopardy of bleeding out
I think you also have the opportunity to show people how to deal with it. Your housebans don’t impact the outside games but showing better or unique answers does!
There are loads of cards that read "when an opponent draws a card, x". That's the simple way. Proliferate is also a fantastic way to deal with The One Ring. Also just stax effects in general. The One Ring is honestly a rather balanced card. Its drawback is just as massive as its upside.
Excellent editing
Playable non-counterspell non-white answers to One Ring: Ravenform, Masked Vandal, Green Slime, Haywire Mite, Hostage Taker, Invasion of Kamigawa, Hellkite Tyrant, Oko, Thieving Skydiver, Song of the Dryads, Frenzied Fuge, Tear Asunder, Puca's Mischeif.
Sheoldred, The Apocalypse. Narset, Parter of Veils. Karn, Liberated. Karn, Silver Golem + literally any creature exile. Karn, The Great Creator. There are so many answers to The One Ring.
I think the one ring is fine is somebody does not recast it constantly. Soo, i would keep it unbanned. Also, in most of your games you play niche cards, themes anyway, it's not like now you have 50th auto include cards.
The one ring warps games, but it warps games in the same way as consecrated sphinx, necro, craterhoof, insurrection and luminarch ascension. Its a powerful bomb that draws attention, but generally you guys dont play those cards in every deck they can go in. So i dont think the one ring is a problem so long as the clash crew keeps it in moderation
Maybe try like each person gets 3 uses of the one ring per season or something
Smothering Tithe and The One Ring make for some fun tension when they are on the field. Tie their fates together: Both are legal, or both are banned.
It's really not fair to compare them. Smothering Tithe is effectively an infinite mana one card combo. The One Ring draws you a few cards at the cost of a lot of life.
Green has fade into antiquity at sorcery and masked vandal which is a legitimate creature in any green creature deck
I really like the effect collector ouph has on the tables I play. Maybe it's just me, but people complaining, that there smothering tithe doesn't work feels great 😍.
The thing about taking away from the theme, is the one ring does not progress the game by itself. It just fuels the deck. You still see the deck do its own thing. There’s some cards we are just used to seeing. Even if I see arcane signet every game it doesn’t make it less fun. I get more bored of seeing the same win cons every time, like craterhoof or something. But even that would not make me want to ban it.
While I agree with Crim that it shouldn't be banned I think the question that he needs to answer is why is Rift a pillar to him but The One Ring isn't?
Seth, you have to be the change you want to see in the world. You cannot make an argument that something shouldn't exist and then also use it in a noncompetitive format.
remember kids, win in gameplay, not deckbuilding.
I think its fair at 1, at 4 you can draw more copies to skirt the downside and get extra fog turns which is too much in my opinion
I like to see games with commanders and cards that i ve never seen before.
hi everyone, just wanna point out how crazy it is with other colorless support of late. for example, Peregrine Dynamo decks run the one ring better than probably any other commander. just another factor to keep in mind :3
Crim playing the role of the cartoon henchman villian yet again.
at 1:03:00 i think Crim's idea of a staples are more answers to other players (wraths, counters, removal) while seth's idea of a staple includes powerful cards that advance a generic core strategy (draw/ramp).
I mean. Seth's (according to you) definition is just what it means in this context. A staple would be something that goes in every deck, period. Not including it actively weakens your deck. I disagree that The One Ring is a staple, because there are loads of decks that would not be stronger for including it. But that is generally what staple means.
@@dontmisunderstand6041
I agree, Seth has the correct and more widely used definition. However it sounds to me that Crim is using a more narrow one. When he says "you have to eat your veggies" hes not talking about that normal definition of staple and instead a truncated one where the veggies are not cards that progress your own game plan but answer your opponents game plan. His argument got lost in that nuance and the semantics of what they mean by "staple".
The one ring, the one ring, the one ring, ban it. It's done enough damage already on your show.