The PROS and CONS of Building with DR Horton

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ค. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 113

  • @DavidMatney
    @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    ✔What are the costs when buying a home? 👉 th-cam.com/video/uMvLKfmAlaw/w-d-xo.html

  • @ByteGeek1
    @ByteGeek1 2 ปีที่แล้ว +12

    Currently building with DR Horton I’m SC. 60 days out of closing and we can go anytime we want to walkthrough and inspect and bring any issues up. Plus sales reps update us weekly with pictures.

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Nate, congratulations on the new build. I love the email updates and communication DR Horton does with the progress of the build. Many builders do not keep the buyers in the communication loop. I would suggest getting permission from the builder before entering an active job site. Thanks for taking the time to leave a comment.

  • @christianbenoit5989
    @christianbenoit5989 2 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    I have a DR Horton home in Louisiana. Yes the price looks good and the floor plans are nice but in this market these homes have issues from leaking windows, to humidity issues that is causing mold. I would not buy another DR Horton home. I would rather pay a little more and get something a little bit better.

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Christian, I appreciate you taking the time to provide feedback and for leaving a comment. Thank you.

    • @kdelete4949
      @kdelete4949 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      I think this depends on the local sub contractor. I have no issues with my DR Horton home.

  • @wayneculbertson175
    @wayneculbertson175 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    It boils down to the Superintendent building your home, if he sucks so will your House. I built one with them and they did okay. I had issues getting the final punch out finished after I closed but that’s my fault. Don’t ever close without that list done… they plan your punch out walkthrough right after theirs to confuse you with all the tape on the walls, you will be overwhelmed and miss a lot. Then getting it done was a act of Congress, it was like they got their money and I didn’t matter any more. I heard horror stories of others in that Subdivision. The warranty they give you I’ve heard does whatever they can to decline the repair. I visited my build 3 times a week to check on it. When they poured the driveway it poured rain right after they laid it. They would not replace it, it had lost its skin protective coat. They ended up putting a product /sealer on it, that didn’t stick so they did it again and I sold shortly after. I had a very loud pop in my bathroom often, I think the bathroom was separating from the house. I sold for other reasons but glad i did and I’m not dealing with that pop noise. It was very loud and sounded very expensive to fix. The materials are idk…. Hopefully better than the interior paint they used. Be prepared to paint if you have kids… the walls will be trashed. There is a guy on TH-cam and it took 10million views to get them to fix the janky job holding stone and rock to the front of his house.. it was obvious crap work and very unsafe and they tried to ignore him. Their so-called warranty company also declined to repair it. Look it up, keep searching Dr Horton and it will come up. Complain too much during the build and they will trash your contract and find another buyer…. Seen it happen. “Sit down and shut up” is what they want. Sorry about the long rant but when I see someone play these clowns out to be any type of a good option for a new home I tend to add a different side of reality. It’s a throw of the dice with this Builder, any amount of research will show it. The finance company DHI did a fantastic job, and my sales rep was wonderful too but her hands were tied and it was obvious. Good luck on your search, it’s soo hard to see through the bs sometimes.

  • @MrDavidrealtor
    @MrDavidrealtor 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    I saw many new home for them and they always on time and before time on closing date. I did an interview and do walk through of their model home in tennessee and mississippi. Thank you for sharing

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว

      You are welcome. Thanks for taking the time to comment.

  • @whatyouseenow411
    @whatyouseenow411 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Great video, lots of good info David! Thanks for your time!

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thank you for the kind words.

  • @scott331
    @scott331 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    External walls are collapsing, on their cut stone entrances, no ventilation for roofs which will in return cause mold issues, slanted walls which can collapse, drywall for external walls she mentioned?? WoW 😯, how pathetic and immoral. A disaster waiting to happen. WOW

  • @BodiRips
    @BodiRips ปีที่แล้ว +6

    You forgot to mention their "cancel for convenience" clause in their contract. AKA "we will cancel the build before closing so we can sell the home for a higher price" Might want to put that in your Con section

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Jeremy, I was not aware of that clause being a part of their contract. Thanks for sharing.

  • @jpaldesignsrock
    @jpaldesignsrock 2 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    Their favorite word when you complain is It's SETTLING".

  • @angellynn8004
    @angellynn8004 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Great informative video

  • @adamcruz3172
    @adamcruz3172 2 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    It All sounds great to me. Living from apartment to apartment most of the time. And rent going up. That dr horton " what you see is what you get" is an upgrade of lifestyle already. It's all bells and whistles to me. So it's Pros with me.

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Adam, congratulations in advance and thanks for taking the time to comment.

  • @roberttallantjr.264
    @roberttallantjr.264 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Dave, I was the first employee DR Horton hired. I managed the 1st hundred homes in Pioneer View, Belgium Lago, and Anchor View. I would NEVER allow anyone I care about buy one of these "homes" . Ask any inspector from Gretna, Papillion, Bellevue, Omaha, or Springfield and ask what theu think about DR Horton. Ask them the issues they see. They Do not follow local codes because they have an engineered stamped plans. That engineered lives in North Carolina and has never been to the state of Nebraska. They pay employees very well, and they pay outside agents a higher percentage than any other buyer in town and rely on agents choosing money over integrity to bring them clients. They only care about the share-holders. I was fired for not agreeing with "the DR way". Best thing that could of happened to me. Even though the Omaha President promised I would be payed out my bonus. Money wasn't worth hating life.

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Robert, thank you. I appreciate the candid feedback and taking the time to comment. Your comment demonstrates the importance of researching and obtaining information from a variety of different sources both good and bad before making one of life's largest financial decisions. Thank you.

  • @bbing3633
    @bbing3633 2 ปีที่แล้ว +11

    have you watched any youtube videos on DR Horton? Not very good reviews

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      I completely understand and yes I have watched several videos on DR Horton with negative reviews. This is based on my information. One of the problems with buying new construction with ANY builder is expectations and many buyers even with high end custom builders are is not happy at the end of the process. I agree, I think it is important for buyers to conduct their research before they build and to speak with people who were pleased and with those who were not happy in the process. Thanks for taking the time to leave a comment, I do appreciate it.

    • @lbluvspooh
      @lbluvspooh 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      We are a society that always broadcasts the negative sides of business. And I get it. We have a bad experience, we want to talk about it. But if you’re satisfied you don’t take the time to tell anyone about it. With the thousands and thousands of homes they build, I would hope that people are satisfied. That’s what I would want to assume. You may have bad building pockets in markets no doubt. I’m just keeping my hopes up for ours that is being built now and doing my diligence to get build inspections along the way. I have to say yes, I wish there were more positive reviews here on TH-cam, but those people obviously have better things to do 😂

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Excellent points! Building a home is extremely stressful and many people may have alot of misconceptions about the building process.

  • @kellmarktv
    @kellmarktv 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Sounds good 👍🏻

  • @josefilemonrodriguez3811
    @josefilemonrodriguez3811 2 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    I'm sorry to Tell you that company is bad their House's are leaking everywhere

  • @jstar1000
    @jstar1000 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    All builders are only as good as the sub contractors they used on your specific house.

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  ปีที่แล้ว

      Great point! Thanks for taking the time to comment.

  • @for_crys_sake
    @for_crys_sake ปีที่แล้ว +1

    This was really helpful.

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  ปีที่แล้ว

      Judith, I am glad you found it helpful. Hopefully, it serves as a starting point for your research. Thanks for taking the time to comment.

  • @ccoleman2959
    @ccoleman2959 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    What about northwest Mississippi?

  • @bluddab9220
    @bluddab9220 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    A good mention for realtors is no MLS forms.

  • @bane2256
    @bane2256 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    It’s hard to choose a good builder. They all have some bad reviews, which makes it hard to decide who is good and who isn’t

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Excellent point! Many different factors are in play and not everyone will leave a review. Builders can also have different subcontractors in different markets. If you drive a neighborhood on a Saturday, and find homeowners who have built with the same builder maybe you can ask for some feedback on their experience too. Every buyer has different expectations and building a home is not for the faint of heart. Thanks for taking the time to comment.

  • @Candyapplebone
    @Candyapplebone 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    What are the economics on buying these with the intention of renting to tenants?

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Great question! If I understand your question correctly, from my understanding, unlike Celebrity Homes, DR Horton does not mind if you purchase one of their homes for investment purposes. I think that is a great idea. Thanks for the comment.

  • @karenkinser1809
    @karenkinser1809 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Well in Washington Dave it’s crazy. 535 k for a 2400 fsf home.

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว

      I can believe it. Affordable housing is becoming scarce. Thanks for the comment!

  • @casperthegm741
    @casperthegm741 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Thanks for the great insight. This might create an issue for us, as we're going to visit a number of builders in April, with the intention of choosing one and anticipating a 8-12 month completion date. So doesn't that make visiting a DR Horton development in April pointless, since they are essentially 90 day builds? So it's one of two choices; visit all the developments by other builders and pick one in April, or wait until we're 3 months out from moving date and hope that DR Horton has exactly what we want, since it will be too late to go with any other builder. Am I understanding that correctly?

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Thanks for the comment. I may not be understanding your question. New DR Horton developments are constantly coming online. They don't advertise their product until it is 90 days from completion. I would look at all of your options. Are you building in Omaha?

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I would still pay DR Horton a visit. The one thing about their model homes is their is no deviation. What you see if what you get.

    • @casperthegm741
      @casperthegm741 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@DavidMatney that was a quick response- thank you. No, we live in NC, and plan to move to the Orlando area in early 2024. So we will be visiting home builders in the Orlando area next month, deciding which one to sign with, anticipating it will take 8-12 months to build the new home. I probably worded it poorly, but my question/concern is that if we include DR Horton among the builders to visit next month, would it be worthwhile, since their sales process seems to be to sell houses that are going to be ready in 90 days, rather than the 8-12 months that we'd prefer? (hopefully I worded that better)

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@casperthegm741 I would still at least pay them a visit if for nothing else for education and comparison purposes. They may not be be the right fit for your particular situation but visiting a model is always good for adding to your base of knowledge. If you are really constrained by time it may be best to try to narrow your list of builders before you go. Do you already have an agent in Orlando to assist you? Your agent may be able to provide you with a list of builders.

  • @TJ-gm2uy
    @TJ-gm2uy 2 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    Do you get paid by D.R. Horton to advertise for them? You haven’t done your homework there are hundreds of homeowners who are dealing with weeping walls mold peeling paint poor workmanship peeling gutters leaking roofs leaking windows and some have leans put on their homes because D.R. Horton have not paid some of there contractors how funny to hear you say they offer a warranty on their homes well what good is a warranty if they don’t honor it…do your own research…buyer beware

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      No, I do not get paid by DR Horton to advertise for them. Every market is going to be different with different subcontractors in that market. I have not heard of any weeping walls, mold, peeling paint, etc. in our market. DR Horton has only been in our market for about 18 months and as of this point, I have not heard any of those issues in our market. When a builder builds 80,000+ homes a year, I am sure there will be many buyers who have had some type of issue or not satisfied. I agree with you, everyone needs to do their own due diligence and gather data from multiple sources and my video is just one source. Thanks for taking the time to comment.

    • @robertsmith1865
      @robertsmith1865 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      This is true, I have heard nothing but complaints about them and clàss action lawsuits

    • @EricV485
      @EricV485 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      I’ve had 0 issues in my Dr Horton home. People have different experiences.

  • @mazidweb
    @mazidweb 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Great experience

  • @sheltdog8463
    @sheltdog8463 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Main thing is do some research on the subcontractors that they use in that neighborhood. Some contractors don’t work in all their neighborhoods. Far as the warranty the subcontractors are who you’ll be dealing with, ya they’ll have their little warranty guy out there from Horton but 9 times out of 10 he doesn’t have a clue. He just accecess the problem then calls the subcontractors to fix what ever may be the problem.

  • @jjeniece
    @jjeniece ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Not sure if DR Horton’s preferred lender offers this, but Ryan’s will let you extend the lock on your interest rate (for a fee of course).

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  ปีที่แล้ว

      For a while DR Horton had a buydown program, not sure if they still offer that. I believe DR Horton usually does not put homes up for sale until they are about 90 days out so that does not expose the buyer to as much risk as a longer build time. Thanks for taking the time to comment.

    • @wayneculbertson175
      @wayneculbertson175 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Interest rate lock-in happens at the 30 to close timing. Could not get them to budge on that

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  ปีที่แล้ว

      Hopefully, rates will go down and that can give you an opportunity to refinance.

  • @personalfinancemadeclear5506
    @personalfinancemadeclear5506 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Good content!

  • @mercyantony3322
    @mercyantony3322 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Last year we did contract with Dr Horton company and the earnest money was $1000 but unfortunately we cancelled it , this year again 2 weeks ago we made contract for another house and it's $1000 too , as per them it will be ready by the end of this month , hopefully by God's Grace everything will be ok

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  ปีที่แล้ว

      Congratulations on your new build! Just curious, what state did you build in?

  • @ToraisaJ
    @ToraisaJ 2 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    Great video David. My husband and I are under contract with Dr. Horton. We’re expected to close in March, so far so good.

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Congratulations! Thanks for the kind words and for taking the time to comment.

    • @samehmikhail5039
      @samehmikhail5039 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      D R Horton is the worst builder, sadly I own one of their homes

  • @mr.independent3501
    @mr.independent3501 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    After all I see about this builder on TH-cam and the internet, i would NEVER buy a house from the company and I would do all I can to stop my family members from buying a house from them

  • @jvolstad
    @jvolstad 4 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Doesn't DR Horton pay the Realtor commission?

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      In Nebraska, DR Horton will pay a cooperating commission to the buyer agent's broker if the buyer agent attends the first meeting of the buyer and DR Horton. Keep in mind, every state is different. Sometimes DR Horton will have special promotions where they may pay a buyer's agent a bonus. Keep in mind, commissions are negotiable. Thanks for the comment.

  • @danielmasri8176
    @danielmasri8176 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I worked at DR Horton . Excellent product. I staged field operations.

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  ปีที่แล้ว

      Daniel, thanks for taking the time to comment. I appreciate it.

  • @samehmikhail5039
    @samehmikhail5039 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    Do not buy any of D R Horton, sadly I made a mistake and bought one of their homes😢

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Sameh, thanks for the comment and the feedback. Did you buy your home in Omaha?

    • @samehmikhail5039
      @samehmikhail5039 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      @@DavidMatney no in Palmetto Florida, looking into getting a class action lawsuit against D R Horton

    • @snehaacharya3483
      @snehaacharya3483 ปีที่แล้ว

      May I ask what happened?

    • @samehmikhail5039
      @samehmikhail5039 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@DavidMatney No in Palmetto FL

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  ปีที่แล้ว

      @@samehmikhail5039 Could you please share what happened?

  • @villaalex708
    @villaalex708 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    You said that they ask for a 1000 deposit but they ask us 25,000

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Are you thinking of the down payment? Down payment would be more depending on your loan program. The earnest deposit is the initial amount at the time the offer is written. Thanks for comment.

    • @reneecollins9681
      @reneecollins9681 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      DR Horton is a cam I would never buy another house from from that company things they have in the brochure That was supposed cam with phase one they tried to sell it to you I just don't care for their business and I heard anybody before by and have them checked out window problems mole right after buying it I'm not the only one before you buy please whatever you do take a warranty out right away you'll need it

  • @joehickey7262
    @joehickey7262 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    I have heard horrible stories regarding DR Horton homes/ Townhomes.. I LOOKED AND WALKED AWAY!!!
    NOT WORTH YOUR FUTURE HEADACHE AND LOSS OF MONEY!!!!

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  ปีที่แล้ว

      Joe, thanks for the feedback and for taking the time to comment.

  • @opinioncounts5490
    @opinioncounts5490 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    One big drawback is quality , this company is very bad for qualty

  • @walkerb1734
    @walkerb1734 4 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    All cons….no pros!

  • @giovanni8233
    @giovanni8233 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    So every con is a pro?

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  11 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      If you want to make any kind of change or customization then it is definitely a con and DR Horton is not the builder for you. Thanks for the comment.

  • @clairesuzanne1
    @clairesuzanne1 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    I came to the conclusion that building with DR Horton would be right for us, for the reason stated in the video. With our budget, under 300k, we are looking at older ranches that get sweeped up super quick-as soon as they hit the market they get multiple offers and you’re pretty much guaranteed to be paying an appraisal gap. And there’s no guarantee that after five to ten years if you want to sell that these homes are still going to be worth the extra price per sqft compared to other homes in their neighborhood. Also-there’s no warranty to back us first time home owners up if something major falls apart. We are prepared to deal with minor stuff either way. And they’re going to give us our VA loan at a whole percentage point lower interest rate, plus give us 1k toward earnest cash (around here, we owe 3.5% of the cost of the home as earnest cash). I don’t think it’s a perfect situation. But for us, it just makes more sense. I haven’t heard any complaints from people in our area-and from viewing the models and open houses with my husband who works in construction, it didn’t seem bad at all, just cheap.

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Suzanne, congratulations on your purchase! That makes complete sense. We are fortunate to have entry-level new construction in our market. So far, I have not heard anything negative with DR Horton in our local market. Just curious, did you purchase in the Omaha area or where was your build?

  • @michaelkelly7395
    @michaelkelly7395 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Cheap track 🏡

  • @ruwanananda
    @ruwanananda 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    The charge for earnest money deposit was not $1000, That information is so wrong. Minimum $3000. Please correct

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Ruwan, in our market, at the time the video was recorded the earnest deposit was $1000. It may be different in other markets, or they may have changed the policy since I recorded this video. Thank you for sharing this information and I appreciate the comment.

    • @lbluvspooh
      @lbluvspooh 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      It must be different everywhere. I’m in Texas. We did $1000 earnest money on a DRH then changed our mind and went with another community they had. Same town. This one was only $500. Who knows 🤷‍♀️

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@lbluvspooh interesting. Thanks for the information and for taking the time to comment.

    • @adamranes7880
      @adamranes7880 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Mine was $1500 one month ago.

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@adamranes7880 thanks for the info and for leaving a comment. What market are you in?

  • @Docfinder1
    @Docfinder1 2 ปีที่แล้ว +21

    I understand that as a realtor you don’t want to upset the biggest home builder but this video is extremely superficial. Horton and their tactics are readily available if you wanted to be completely honest about Horton. They are being sued in many states due to telling lies about their construction quality. Their so called “warranty” is worthless because the fine print often keeps people from having repairs done, or they say that you should have told them before closing, but the person who walked the home told you they would fix it later. Lots of double speak. Lots of dishonesty and the savings is negligible

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Todd, thanks for the comment. It is an excellent reminder for all consumers to do their due diligence before entering into any large transaction with any business.

  • @striper8311
    @striper8311 ปีที่แล้ว

    Never never buy a new build without a ore drywall inspection and pre closing inspections, don’t listen to anybody, the shitheads that we’re washing dishes last week are building your house this week, no workers anywhere anymore.

  • @roslynluers5186
    @roslynluers5186 10 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Why does DRHorton have such a horrible reputation.

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  10 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Roslyn, great question! I think it is for several reasons and this is just my opinion. 1) DR Horton builds about 90,000 homes per year if you build that many homes just by shear numbers you are naturally going to have some unhappy customers. 2) It is a volume builder, some folks are going to be unhappy just because they can not make any changes. 3) It is kind of like McDonald's. McDonald's make the most hamburgers, but one could argue that they are not the BEST hamburgers. 4) Because they are a volume builder, their business model may not use the most expensive products or materials because they are trying to keep prices down. 5) Every DR Horton has different subcontractors in different markets, some may not be as good as other markets. I would look for complaints from DR Horton in your specific market. Thanks again for the comment.

  • @NicholasANappiNick
    @NicholasANappiNick 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    #1 builder of shit homes😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢

  • @nursemelody45
    @nursemelody45 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I just purchased a DR Horton.home they never told me about an incentive for being a nurse!!!

    • @DavidMatney
      @DavidMatney  7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I am sorry to hear that. 🙁Did you have your own agent or did you go into the model unrepresented?

  • @joehickey7262
    @joehickey7262 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    I have heard horrible stories regarding DR Horton homes/ Townhomes.. I LOOKED AND WALKED AWAY!!!
    NOT WORTH YOUR FUTURE HEADACHE AND LOSS OF MONEY!!!!

    • @robertquigley5869
      @robertquigley5869 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      I have heard again that they are the biggest homebuilder in the US. McDonald's is the biggest restaurant chain too and the food is terrible too. The customer gets screwed due to lowest quality materials and unskilled workers.

    • @snehaacharya3483
      @snehaacharya3483 ปีที่แล้ว

      Hmm is it?