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Dr . Michael Heiser is now with Jesus .....he is experiencing first hand heaven in all its glory . Thankyou Michael for equipping believers so beautifully we will miss you . Prayers for family
@@Patto2276I guess from his perspective he is since you can't experience a gap in consciousness. Just like surgery you go under and then suddenly you're awake and it's over.
@@CRay-yq3nm Thats why Jesus told the thief on the cross "TODAY" you will be with ME in paradise. As we all know, paradise is when you lay asleep in the grave.
@@CRay-yq3nm according to Jesus, the judgment would happen before "that generation" passed away. Both in the beginning and the end of revelation, John says the time was near, and these things were about to happen.
Eggsellent 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 Paul said more to emphasise his statement too, he added he would remain for our sakes. There's no ambiguity. Absent from body = present with Jesus for believers. Good enough for Paul, good enough for this little old doorkeeper.
I believe in soul sleep because of this passage as well as the fact that no can go to either heaven or the lake of fire before the judgement. Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Even the statement by Paul about leaving the body as being with the Lord doesn't necessarily change this. For the person dying they are instantly with God because for them no time has passed. It's like waking up in the recovery room after surgery. One second your counting backwards and the next your opening your eyes in recovery.
This is a belief that I have, and to just add on to your point, this belief is based on how Jesus himself has described death. John 11:11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”
Hey! I have these 2 articles which will explain the Ecclesiates 9:5 passage, I will also write a part of the answer in case you do not look at the link:) Thanks for sharing this view, I remember going through it, and being confused but after I read these articles, i understand it does not mean soul sleep
Solomon(who wrote Ecclesiates) is not focused on the spirit; instead he is speaking of the physical body. Eventually, those living on planet earth will forget about us. Just allow enough time to elapse and we will be forgotten. When we die we will not longer experience the rewards, or work, hobbies, or whatever gives one some sense of purpose. After we die we will not experience love, hate or a driving passion for anything in our dead physical body. We will not remember anything or share in the things that we once enjoyed. The message of Ecclesiastes is that life is empty. We are born into the world and die. The message of these two verses is that we gain nothing in this life. The old statement that we cannot take it with us, misses the point that is even worse than that. Not only can we not take it with us, but we will be soon forgotten after we die. There is no life in the grave. Our dead bodies will not experience anything. Even the grave is disappointing. Solomon is not speaking of our spirit. He speaks of our spirits later in Ecclesiastes 12:7. His focus here is on the mortal body. Therefore, life is not just over; it is empty and so is the grave! Not only is life disappointing but the grave is too! There is no enjoyment in the grave for our dead physical bodies for which we so diligently cared The author of the book of Ecclesiastes is King Solomon. In the first two verses of Ecclesiastes he tells us that life is empty. Life is like trying to catch the wind in your hands (Ecclesiastes 1:14). You can’t do that! Life comes and goes. Life is empty, pointless and unfulfilling. The inheritance you leave behind will be squandered and selfishly consumed, in spite of one’s hard work. Throughout the book the message is that life is hallow. The only thing truly rewarding is eating and drinking. We make plans and our plans may not be achieved. If they are achieved, they will not last after we are gone. We encounter evil and oppression in this life and no one helps. When we come to Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, Solomon is making the point that when we die this life is over, and you cease to enjoy the old life on planet earth
First, it is clear from other places in the Bible that this verse cannot mean the dead have absolutely no knowledge. For example, Matthew 25:46 speaks of everlasting consciousness: “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Every person will spend eternity with God in heaven or apart from Him in hell. Each person will have feelings, thoughts, and abilities that exist in eternity. In fact, Luke 16:19-31 offers an example of human capabilities in the afterlife. Lazarus is in paradise in eternal joy, while the rich man is in torment in hell (called “Hades”). The rich man has feelings, can talk, and has the ability to remember, think, and reason. Second, Ecclesiastes 9:5 cannot contradict Ecclesiastes 4:2. There, Solomon states that the dead are “happier than the living.” However, when a person is dead, the opportunities to enjoy things on earth no longer exist. The key to understanding the statement “the dead know nothing” is found in the theme of the book of Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes is written specifically from an earthly perspective. The key phrase, repeated throughout the book, is under the sun, used about thirty times. Solomon is commenting on an earth-bound life, “under the sun,” without God. His conclusion, also repeated throughout the book, is that everything from that perspective is “vanity” or emptiness (Ecclesiastes 1:2). When a person dies “under the sun,” the earthly perspective, without God, is that it’s over. He is no longer under the sun. There is no more knowledge to give or be given, just a grave to mark his remains. Those who have died have “no further reward” in this life; they no longer have the ability to enjoy life like those who are living. Eventually, “even their name is forgotten” (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Ecclesiastes 9:5 displays a chiastic structure (ABBA format) like this: A “For the living know that they will die, B but the dead know nothing; B they have no further reward, A and even their name is forgotten.” Lines 1 and 4 are parallel thoughts in the sense that the living know death is coming while those who remain after a person dies quickly forget those who have died. The second and third lines lay down associated ideas in parallel: the dead know nothing, and the dead can no longer enjoy or be rewarded for their activities in this life. The saying “the dead know nothing” seems to be a negative sentiment, but it is not without a positive message. Solomon encourages his readers to live life to its fullest, knowing life is short. In the end, the fullest life is one that honors God and keeps His ways (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).
@@chefm4933 So I can understand that view point. But how can a person go to heaven before the judgement? I don't believe in the traditional hell. I believe that after the resurrection to judgement the lost will be thrown into the lake of fire and be forever destroyed. I don't believe in a "Dantes Inferno" style of eternal torment. The story of Lazarus was a parable.
@Pond3r Thizp3t The scriptures are and have been even in the times after the Old Testament(Covenant) Gods way of speaking to his true believers. (Luke24:27) what would people have done if they waited on God to speak only with audible commands. Read the Scriptures before you make ignorant comments. Unless you think in your finite mind you know more than Gods Word. Shalowm.
@@mahaliavryheid2666 golearn the difference between assumptions, assertions, and actual evidence. Then you can learn how these conmen fool you into this pittiful cult
@@deeschoe1245 and yet here you are, commenting on a video, by a supposed conman and yet I’m the one who needs educating. Goodluck and Godspeed to you!
I would say there are verses in the Ketuvim which convey an unconscious afterlife. Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.
Because many people don't want to accept that the soul along with the body dies too. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Ezekiel 18:20 KJV.
Exactly. The Bible says that the dead know nothing and sleep in the grave and their spirit goes back to the Farher. It’s that simple. The dead are unaware of being dead. However, we are told that all will resurrect - some during Rapture event , during the First Resurrection and some at the end of Millennium. Both believes and unbelievers are unaware of being in the grave and of the time passing. When the resurrection happens (at different times for different groups) both groups became aware again. From the perspective of believer, a person dies and immediately opens eyes and is with the Lord. From the perspective of unbeliever, a person dies and immediately open eyes and faces judgement. The dead are not aware of time. The death must be death. Both groups physically die. Believer dies, open his eyes and realizes he has new body. Unbeliever dies, open his eyes and after judgement dies again - this is second death. Resurrection means only restoration of physical body so this body can die again. Lazarus was resurrected and certainly died again. No surprise then there is “second death”. Believers have their body transformed - so they become immortal. This was the belief of early churches. The torment and gnashing of teeth can be related with “waiting for the judgement” , when resurrected unbelievers are fully aware of the coming Judgement and possibly see the others thrown into the lake of fire. Peter told us that “one day with the Lord is like one thousands years” - this is the hint to understand time relativity.
Pm פיטרוש מיכאל Here is another one: Ecclesiastes 9:5 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten
Seems some people forgot about "Abraham's bosom". Upon which Christ Himself taught on with Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man could see, hear, feel and suffer....
That is a parable. Not a literal thing that happens. When we all die, our bodies and our souls both die. Our souls return to Yahuwah. Dr. Heiser didn't mention that. It is Biblical.
@@JW-rn5eeWe are comprised of body, spirit, and soul. When the father breathes the breath of life (spirit) into our bodies, it gives birth to our consciousness (soul). The mixing of the two creates a 3rd. Gen 2:7 "Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a soul." When we die the breath of life (spirit) returns to the father, not the consciousness(soul). Man returns to the earth, the body back to dust, and the soul to Sheol/Underworld/Hades. In Matt 10:28 Jesus is talking about the 1st and 2nd deaths. The death of the body is the 1st death. The 2nd death is when the unsaved are resurrected, face judgement, then the body and soul is thrown into the lake of fire. The consciousness (soul) is only killed in the 2nd death. The spirit is the animating life force that is given from and returned to the father. Matt 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." So why is the father creating a body for the unsaved to be resurrected into, just for it to be destoryed in the lake of fire? Because when you stand trial, you need to be fully awake. Even in man's court, we dont wheel in people in a veggitated state to face trial. So a soul without a body and spirit is in a dream like state, not fully awake. Its interesting that sheol and hades are used to describe the same place. The greeks had similar descriptions of the underworld. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_underworld "The original Greek idea of afterlife is that, at the moment of death, the soul is separated from the corpse, taking on the shape of the former person, and is transported to the entrance of the underworld. Good people and bad people would then separate." "In the Greek underworld, the souls of the dead still existed, but they are insubstantial, and flitted around the underworld with no sense of purpose. The dead within the Homeric underworld lack menos, or strength, and therefore they cannot influence those on earth. They also lack phrenes, or wit, and are heedless of what goes on around them and on the earth above them." So even if Lazarus and the richman is a parable, its still using truth. The richman was in the bad side of sheol, in a dream like state, having nightmare like torments. Seeing in his dreams Lazarus and Abramham. Lazarus is in Abramhams bossum, in a dream like state, being comforted.
I’m glad you did this, I never believed soul sleep but when my dad passed I was looking on what happens when someone dies and was on Reddit and a lot of the Christian subreddits seemed to hold to soul sleep and had me thinking it was the majority view and I was super confused. Thanks again for sharing what the Bible and history say Dr Heiser. Praying for your health
The majority of scripture seems to point to death being sleep. Try reading Ecclesiastes, they talk about death a lot in there. I’m not saying there’s not a possibility in some form of consciousness after death only that it is definitely a minority of verses if any that point to that in scripture, with the overwhelming majority outright saying death is nothingness, silence, and sleep.
@@youngknowledgeseeker I think it's referred to as sleep bc you have no memory of time past. I think when you die, your consciousness "wakes up" at the judgment. I think NDEs are different than this tho.
@@sirpepeofhousekek6741 That's may be an issue of grammar. There are no commas in Greek, it could very well easily read "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise" rather than "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise". It's may not be such a cut and dry issue.
@@sirpepeofhousekek6741 Well I would say there are 2 theories to take on this. 1 would be that since there are people in Revelation asking God at His throne during the Tribulation, when will He will avenge their deaths, you could make a strong argument that post cross Christians would arrive in Heaven when they die. Pre cross the belief was soul sleep bc David writes "no one can worship God from Sheol" which is post death where you lose consciousness. See the story of the witch at Endor to shed more light on that. Now 2 you could argue that since Heaven has no time or timeline, then Jesus could have been referring to this day in Heaven, rather than this day in Earth. Earth's timeline doesn't correspond with Heavens eternity so every day on Earth is the same 1 "day" in Heaven.
In answer to your question, the "breath" leaves the body :-) Hans Walter Wolff has a great book on the concept of "Nephesh" or the breath through your neck, that really helped me (as a guy studying NT in graduate Seminary) to form my views of what Paul (and others) are talking about in places like 2Corinthians 5:1-10. I appreciate your ministry on TH-cam Dr. Heiser.
. . . [T]hen the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7 Question indicates a beliver who does not read or believe her scripture. Again, Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father John 20:17 Side bar: Don't you just love Mary's exclamation, "Rabboni!" Makes me cry every time.
The righteous have the hope of not staying in Sheol because of something called ‘the resurrection’ when Yahshua calls the righteous up from the grave into new Jerusalem
David wrote, "Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me..." Death is but a shadow, the righteous and unrighteous do not die, we live eternally. Those who are "in Christ" are present with the Lord when they die physically. Jesus said to the thief, "Today you will be with me in paradise." Trust in Jesus today! Follow him.
4:27 Paul said he wishes to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. He does not say that to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord.
You point out that Paul never actually said, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” And you know what? They’re right. That exact phrase doesn’t appear in 2 Corinthians 5:8. What Paul actually says is: “Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” It’s a statement of preference, not a detailed explanation of what happens the moment we die. So, does this mean Paul wasn’t teaching that believers are consciously with Christ after death? Let’s take a closer look. First, while 2 Corinthians 5:8 doesn’t explicitly say there’s no gap between being away from the body and being at home with the Lord, it strongly implies it. Paul clearly desires to leave this earthly body to be “at home” with the Lord, which suggests that he sees this as the next stage after death. There’s no indication in the text that he expects a period of unconsciousness or soul sleep. But to understand this fully, we have to look at all of Scripture. For example, in Philippians 1:23, Paul says, “I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.” Again, there’s no mention of a delay or a state of unconsciousness. Paul’s expectation is clear: when he departs this life, he will immediately be with Christ. Then there’s Luke 23:43, where Jesus tells the thief on the cross, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Jesus didn’t say, “Someday, after a long unconscious sleep, you’ll be with me.” He said, “today.” That’s a powerful affirmation of the conscious presence of the soul after death. Even the Old Testament aligns with this understanding. In 1 Samuel 28, Samuel’s spirit appears to Saul, clearly aware of his surroundings and current events. This wouldn’t make sense if Samuel had been in a state of unconscious soul sleep. So yes, while 2 Corinthians 5:8 doesn’t spell it all out, when we take it in context with the rest of Scripture, it’s consistent with the teaching that believers are immediately with the Lord after death. The paraphrase-“to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”-may not be the exact wording, but it reflects the biblical truth that our hope as believers is to be consciously in Christ’s presence when we leave this life. At the end of the day, Scripture gives us confidence in what happens after death. While we might not have all the details, we can trust that the moment we leave this broken, earthly body, we will experience the joy of being with Christ.
Also there are different compartments in Sheol..you have Tartarus where the wicked angels are being held (Jude and Peter talk about this) you have the compartment for the wicked and you also have the compartment for the righteous called Abraham’s bosom and Yahshuah references this in one of his parables
Jude and Peter were also quoting Enoch directly in those passages. Enoch has some problems, but I truly believe they’re from additions and subtractions made to the text by a improper line of preservers. There’s things in Enoch that are mind blowing next to scripture though, it’s worth a read 😁👍🏼
In the Book of Enoch I have it says that there were four smooth holes in some mountain area and it described who goes to what hole. But when it came to the explanation it only give of three holes One for the wicked one for the sinners and one for the righteous. Concerning the hole for the sinner was that they will not have life in the afterlife but will not be annihilated like the wicked.
Paul had no “after-life” theology. Paul thought death was death and waited for and taught others to wait for resurrection to bring them out of it. Death was “sleep” for Paul.
@@youngknowledgeseeker no Paul said absent from the body present with the Lord and he said to stay here for the gospels or to be with the Lord I am caught between the two
I believe that nobody other than Enoch and Elijah went to be with God, until after Jesus died, went to sheol, conquered it and death and rose on the 3rd day. I don't believe heaven was open until Jesus accomplished the entire mission.
Hi Dr. Heiser. Hope you are getting healed. I continue praying for you. In my opinion, different passages of the Scriptures convey an integrated answer to that question, that I wpuld try to sumarize like this: In the Old Testament (before the Messiah´s Resurrection) dead went to Sheol where Paradise (Abraham´s Bossom) and Hell were, depending on if they were believers or not. One parable from The Lord clearly explained that (Lazarus and The Rich Man). After Jesus Resurrection, Abraham Bossom was emptied and they went to Heaven (First Fruits) with Jesus. They were "saved" but they couldnot enter Heaven because The Messiah had not already accomplished one of his objectives: Making The Men who believed righteous before God. Also after Jesus, whoever died continued going to Paradise and Hell but now, Paradise is not in Sheol but in Heaven, with God. That is why Paul says "absent from the body, present with The Lord", ONLY AFTER The Messiah came. Hell continues to be down but Abraham´s Bossom is now empty. God Bless
May I know how you view this passage then? Act 2:29 “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. This is after resurrection. Didn't peter knew that there were first fruits? He talked as David didn't resurrected yet but Jesus did. Also Paul said 2Co 12:3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise-whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows Paradise is mentioned as may be one of the 3 heaven. How then is paradise in sheol? Let me know if you have answer to this. God bless
@@Eben_Haezer 1. In “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day." What is being spoken of is THE BODY, not the spirit. Yes, humans mostly bury the bodies. Dont we? 2. In "This is after resurrection. Didn't peter knew that there were first fruits? He talked as David didn't resurrected yet but Jesus did. Also Paul said" We shall not confound the transportation of the Spirits or Souls of the Old Testament Saints from Paradise in Sheol to Paradise in Heaven with the FORMAL Resurrection spoken of by Paul. What happened in the Resurrection of Jesus was the consequence of the Redemption: Men did not have the RIGHT to stand before God BEFORE being REDEEMED. All we sinned, even the OT Saints. The animal sacrifices of the Leviticus rituals had the effect of COVERING sins NOT TO BLOW THEM OUT. Only Messiah blood cancelled (paid) men sins, so after Messiah Resurrection they were able to stand before God by being imputed the righteous of Christ. In the other hand, The Resurrection (formally spoken by Paul) is the receipt of the Inmortal Body (Glorious Body). OT Saints didnt receive it yet. Church Age believers (alive or dead) will receive it at THE RAPTURE, but not the OT Saints. They will have to wait until the end of The Tribulation. The Body of Christ, of which HE is the Head (His Bride) is the church, not the OT Saints. The OT Saints are "the friends" of the Bridegroom, and will be invited to the Wedding Feast of the Lamb at the begining of The Millenium here on Earth after being resurrected, even if the ceremony itself will be held in Heaven during The Tribulation and after the BEMA Seat Judgement, but they are not going to be part of the Wife of Christ. Only Real Believers will. 3. In "Paradise is mentioned as may be one of the 3 heaven. How then is paradise in sheol?" I never said Paradise IS in Sheol. I said Paradise (Abraham´s Bossom) WAS in Sheol. And its not me who said so. Jesus said so in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. That is why we have to conclude that after his resurrection it was emptied or "moved" if you prefer to Heaven as after that Paul clearly says "Absent from the body is present with The Lord" who is not in Sheol (He was 3 days there) but in Heaven. God Bless.
@@Eben_Haezer Do you want the pdf copy of the book from a Messianic Jew Bible Scholar? If so, give me an email address where I could send it. It will leave you speechless!!!! Shalom
The Hebrew word for grave is Sheol. Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Ecclesiastes 9:10, which says: “Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.” Now, at first glance, this verse might seem to support the idea of soul sleep-that the dead are unconscious until the resurrection. But let’s take a closer look. When we read Ecclesiastes, we need to understand the context. This book is focused on life “under the sun,” meaning it’s about the earthly, human perspective. The writer is saying that once we die, we can no longer participate in the activities of this life-like working, planning, or gaining knowledge on earth. It’s not making a definitive statement about what happens to our souls after death but is instead contrasting the vibrancy of life with the stillness of physical death. Here’s why I don’t think this verse supports soul sleep. First, other parts of Scripture describe Sheol as a place where the dead are aware. For example, in Isaiah 14:9-11, the dead are portrayed as stirring and even speaking. In 1 Samuel 28, Samuel, who has died, is clearly conscious and aware when Saul consults him. These examples show that Sheol is not a place of unconsciousness. Second, when we look at the New Testament, Jesus’ teachings confirm this. Take the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31-both men are clearly conscious in the afterlife, experiencing awareness and interacting. That’s not the picture of soul sleep. Lastly, Ecclesiastes is wisdom literature. It often reflects on life and mortality from a very human perspective. It’s not trying to give us a full theology of the afterlife, but rather, it’s telling us to live with urgency and purpose while we have the chance. So, when I read Ecclesiastes 9:10, I don’t see it as a statement about soul sleep. Instead, I see it as a call to live fully while we’re here on earth, knowing that after we die, our souls will continue in conscious existence, as the rest of Scripture makes clear. Let me know what you think about this-drop your thoughts in the comments!S
Jesus said to the thief on the cross to day you will be with me in paradise,(Luke 23:43 :) And also father Abraham said(Luke 16:23) to the rich man in Hell(hades) there is a great gulf whereby no one can pass from one side or the other. So it seems to me the Word of God does Imply that the Spirit will live in one of those realms until the Resurection of all flesh for Judgment of Christ Jesus.
Jesus said, “Truly I tell you today you will be with me in Paradise.” Commas have been added in scripture, but they didn’t exist in the day. If commas existed in the language, you COULD put one after “today” and change the meaning.
@@forthwithtx5852 Ftwh T. You may change the sentence but the Word remains the same(G4594 semeron) Greek translation means this Day or to Day. I believe. Shalowm.
@@forthwithtx5852 It's absolutely ridiculous to believe that. He used that common phrase in numerous passages, and never once did he follow it with "today", and that includes this time. Also, how did He go "preach to the spirits in prison" when He descended into the lower depths, if there was no consciousness in Tartarus/Hades?
Jesus said it very simply.... That there was a "great chasm" separating "Hades" from "Paradise", i.e. "Abraham's bosom" ("third heaven"). "Sheol" was simply a term that the ancients used for the general principal of the "place of the dead". It wasn't even until about mid Israelite culture that they began believing that the soul was alive after death. The Greek mythos regarding Hades is what Jesus expounded upon regarding the truth that was to be extracted.
There was a diversity of belief on this issue, as the scriptures clearly reflect, but before people get too caught up in what the ancients believed about an afterlife, remember: as Dr. Heiser himself has pointed out, they also believed the sky was a solid surface and the kidneys had something to do with emotion. For an indepth study of this issue, see "Hades, the Intermediate State of Man," by Henry Constable.
The grave/Sheol/Hades is split into two, divided by a great gulf. One side for the righteous and one side for the unrighteous. The former being referred to as 'paradise' or 'Abraham's bosom', which has been empty since Jesus descended, took ownership of the keys and led the captives free (to be with Him in heaven along with all believers since). The unrighteous side remains populated (and ever moreso to-date). Both the righteous and the unrighteous will be resurrected (two separate events), from their current situations and then rehomed respectively, either to the new earth ultimately, or to Hell.
@Pond3r Thiz Jesus said the kingdom of God is like; . Since with our earthly, soulish minds we are incapable of understanding what the kingdom of God is exactly. Similarly with this parable then, Jesus is telling us elements of what Sheol/Hades is 'like'. From this we understand it's not a physical place, we understand it's a place where conciousness continues, we also understand that those who are destined for different places are kept apart. You disagree however, you're saying that's not the case. So what _do_ you think Jesus is telling us about the realm of the dead in this parable?
@@trevhib I don't think it's a parable because he actually NAMES names in the passages. Another reason why it's not a parable is because Jesus never describes this as a parable. What you read in that passage is what really happened. Again, it's clear that this isn't a parable because they have names. In parables, they're used as illustrations or something the Lord himself names, and the real intent in that passage is to underscore the reality of what He's saying from this chapter, etc.
@@DerrickthePinecone Hi Derrick. I agree, it does appear to be about real people (and therefore it's not a parable). Unfortunately my second post is now out of context because the person I was replying to has since deleted his, leaving mine isolated. In any case, in my second paragraph I would change the word 'parable' to 'story' in both instances if I were to write it again and that would more or less suffice 👍
@@trevhib Ah, I totally understand! It's weird how when a person you were responding to, their comment, disappears, it leaves your reply to them as a stand-alone, confusing the people that come along later and read it! Haha! Anyway, glad we're on the same page here. God bless you, in Yeshua's Name!
Yes. That is what happens to the righteous and the unrighteous alike. (Lest some reader mistakenly think that the spirit mentioned here is a sentient disembodied part of man, let me add that the original Hebrew word, here translated "spirit," means wind, breath, exhalation, or life. In other words, what returns to God is the breath of life.)
Luke 16: 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and seeing Abraham far off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there.
@@youngknowledgeseeker I don't think it's a parable because he actually NAMES names in the passages. Another reason why it's not a parable is because Jesus never describes this as a parable. What you read in that passage is what really happened. Again, it's clear that this isn't a parable because they have names. In parables, they're used as illustrations or something the Lord himself names, and the real intent in that passage is to underscore the reality of what He's saying from this chapter, etc.
A question for you, Suzanne. The Christian dead will get new, spiritual bodies at the resurrection but between death and the resurrection the dead do not have bodies. What should we make of the fact that the dead characters in Luke 16 have bodies?
I am surprised at Dr. Heiser's misquoting of Paul. He did not declare to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He said he prefers to be absent from the body and be present with the Lord. So do I. That doesn't mean I go to heaven when I die.
You point out that Paul never actually said, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” And you know what? They’re right. That exact phrase doesn’t appear in 2 Corinthians 5:8. What Paul actually says is: “Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” It’s a statement of preference, not a detailed explanation of what happens the moment we die. So, does this mean Paul wasn’t teaching that believers are consciously with Christ after death? Let’s take a closer look. First, while 2 Corinthians 5:8 doesn’t explicitly say there’s no gap between being away from the body and being at home with the Lord, it strongly implies it. Paul clearly desires to leave this earthly body to be “at home” with the Lord, which suggests that he sees this as the next stage after death. There’s no indication in the text that he expects a period of unconsciousness or soul sleep. But to understand this fully, we have to look at all of Scripture. For example, in Philippians 1:23, Paul says, “I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.” Again, there’s no mention of a delay or a state of unconsciousness. Paul’s expectation is clear: when he departs this life, he will immediately be with Christ. Then there’s Luke 23:43, where Jesus tells the thief on the cross, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Jesus didn’t say, “Someday, after a long unconscious sleep, you’ll be with me.” He said, “today.” That’s a powerful affirmation of the conscious presence of the soul after death. Even the Old Testament aligns with this understanding. In 1 Samuel 28, Samuel’s spirit appears to Saul, clearly aware of his surroundings and current events. This wouldn’t make sense if Samuel had been in a state of unconscious soul sleep. So yes, while 2 Corinthians 5:8 doesn’t spell it all out, when we take it in context with the rest of Scripture, it’s consistent with the teaching that believers are immediately with the Lord after death. The paraphrase-“to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”-may not be the exact wording, but it reflects the biblical truth that our hope as believers is to be consciously in Christ’s presence when we leave this life. At the end of the day, Scripture gives us confidence in what happens after death. While we might not have all the details, we can trust that the moment we leave this broken, earthly body, we will experience the joy of being with Christ.
This has been a tricky subject for me and I would think anyone who delves into it. It seems like death is generally and mostly referred to as non-consciousness in the Bible but there are passages here and there that may imply otherwise. Also we should take into consideration the seeming belief in afterlife that we find in ancient texts and culture around their time. But 🤷🏾♂️. Just my opinion but God doesn’t have a section of scripture dedicated to this topic or making sure it’s explained clearly (except maybe Ecclesiastes 👀 which a lot of people tend to ignore or twist to fit their own theology 🤷🏾♂️) meaning that it doesn’t have to be such a big deal for us. While it does seem that death is sleep in the Bible, perhaps there is or can be some form of consciousness as well or being awakened from that sleep to consciousness for awhile (Saul and the witch of Endor). What we DO know for sure is that A) No matter what death is resurrection is the cure B) No one is immortal right now but God, Jesus and perhaps the Angels that remained Holy. We will only be beings that can live forever at the resurrection. C) No one goes to “Hell” or “Heaven” at death. This is simply found nowhere in the Bible and only found in tradition and pop-culture (and some NDE’s I must admit, which is interesting). All go to the grave, in Hebrew “Sheol”, and in Greek “Hades”. (Now at the resurrection and judgement then people are seemingly either going to “Hell” or a paradised Earth) D) The majority of texts that speak of death speak of it as the end of consciousness and, imo, of the reversal of what God did in the creation. (He turned an inanimate object (dust) to an animate thinking one, meanwhile death sees the living thinking animate object return to being just dust, just inanimate matter again.) But a minority may suggest that consciousness exists after death before the resurrection. 🤷🏾♂️. Would love informed, knowledgeable, intelligent, and thoughtful feedback. Let me know if I’m incorrect about anything. Edit: @cutechonkies and @heissavior thank you for your amazing responses. All the responses from everyone has reminded me to stay as humble and honest as possible and just say "I don't know" whenever applicable. I don't know what the state of the dead is like in the Bible, I'm only making an educated guess as best I can. Regardless, we all wait resurrection day. And whatever the 2nd death is, God will be praised and shown to know what he is doing in handling humanity and sin.
You are correct. If the bible is your primary teacher, then those are the conclusions you will reach. Many Christians however have acquired their teaching primarily from men, and have read the bible in light of what they have been taught by men; so they will likely not come to the same conclusions. Keep seeking the knowledge of the Truth from the Word of God and you will find it. Peace brother.
What about the lake of fire? Or when Jesus talks about the place where there will be gnashing and grinding of teeth? I heard Dr Heiser saying that the eternally rising smoke may simply be smoke and not an entity suffering.That makes sense to me. I have this idea that any true hell is reserved for the unredeemable wicked, like the fallen angels. Yes, a tricky topic
@@stompthedragon4010 good question. So the term “lake of fire” is only found in Revelation. It may be referring to “Gehenna” Jesus spoke of where their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I’m not 100% clear whether or not Gehenna or the Lake are symbolic or real places of fire/destruction, but I think the New Testament paints it as real. A real place of potentially fiery destruction, not torture forever, but a ceasing of life forever. The smoke of their torment that rises forever is again only found in Revelation. But even then the subject of eternalness is the smoke not the creatures in the fire, not to mention there is such a thing as HYPERBOLE, a literary method God CERTAINLY uses. I would think it means that their destruction will be permanent. Much like how Jude (or Peter?) say that Sodom and Gomorrah were hit with “eternal” fire, speaking of the Gehenna/Age fire. But clearly there is no fire raging where their cities used to be since 4000BC or whatever, hyperbole indicating that their destruction was sure, permanent and unstoppable. I cannot say that the New Testament supports the idea that only few go to Gehenna. It’s the opposite, that most will. It would be great if everybody is eventually saved somehow or if Hell isn’t permanent, but I think the majority of texts don’t support that. (I am thinking of one parable where Jesus talks about the man sentenced to jail for being taken to court over calling his brother hateful demeaning words. He says the man will be in jail till every penny is paid. Does this indicate that Hell is temporary? maybe, maybe not) However do your own reading, study and prayer Edit: Reread chapter 14 of Revelation. I did forget that it says that those who follow the beast receive no rest day and night and the smoke of torment also applies to human sinners. I still lean on annihilationism and that Revelation isn’t meant to be taken literally in a lot of respects but I wanted to correct myself on saying these things only applied to the beast, false prophet and Satan Also rereading chapter 20 it says that the Satan the Beast and the false prophet are tormented day and night. I remembered Revelation very incorrectly.
what st paul said about 'absent from the body,' must be read in context with the rest of his letters. he said not to be hopeless about the dead, not because they went to heaven, but because of the resurrection, the blessed hope. so, these two texts seem to contradict each other. but if we use the resurrection as the ruling principle, then 'being with Lord' can only have two possible meanings: the eschatological hope and/or the underworldly setting apart of the dead in Christ.
Enoch was taken up to God and King David said he will see his child again and be in the presence of God to name a couple offhand without looking up any information.
Enoch did not die, though. He was translated. (Heb 11:5) As for David, he had the same promise of the resurrection as Abraham and the other patriarchs (Heb 11:5, Job 19:26). But he certainly is not in heaven, not even after Christ's resurrection. Acts 2:29-35“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. “For DAVID DID NOT ASCEND INTO THE HEAVENS, but he says himself: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
@@deliberativedisciple Wait, did I just read your comment correctly? Are you saying that David DIDN'T go to heaven? Are you saying that David ISN'T in heaven right now, as we speak?!
One question though, why do you say it's metaphorical? Shouldn't we as Christians believe literally what the Bible says. Sheol. Didn't Christ himself go to Sheol? To free the souls and take his people to paradise with him. Right?
No…you will not find one verse that supports that…if your referring to the verse in Peter, whose meaning is a highly debated subject in the first place, it seems to say that Jesus went to whatever spirits were in prison, possibly the Watchers of Enoch and Genesis 6, AFTER he was resurrected, not in death. “being made alive in the spirit BY WHICH he went to the spirits in prison…”. It also never says he frees them. If there is a verse your referring to that I’m not aware of please correct me.
@@youngknowledgeseeker -> You're correct. Those spirits in prison are the "Watchers" that Yahuwah imprisoned until the last great day. 1 Enoch goes into detail also.
@@JW-rn5ee this is what I always thought. But according to dr. Heiser it is incorrect. the imprisoned souls are the Souls of the Nephilim and Watchers. Jesus did not preach to them to free them because they are still there. His preaching was more like declaring his victory and explaining to them that while they were stuck there he was not
One should NEVER say we take the Bible LITERALLY. We should say that we take the Bible seriously. Literal is a word that refers to the literary device being used. There are many common literary devices being used by the biblical writer for example metaphor or story or song or poetry. Do you take the verse, the Lord is my shepherd literally? No, taking it literally would mean the Lord is actually a man on Earth with a wooden rod who spends all day walking you around a grassy pasture tending to livestock animals like sheep. This verse is a metaphor and it is meant to be understood metaphorically. Sometimes it challenge in interpreting the Bible requires the reader to understand first what literary device the writer is using. Most of the time it is obvious whether the writer is using a metaphor or a song or is being a literal. Sometimes it's less clear. Take Genesis. Whether you believe that Genesis should mean the world was created in 7 24-hour period or whether the whole thing is more of a metaphor and not a scientific description should be based on whether you think the writer was intending to be literal or whether they were tending to be more figurative. Given that the first chapter of Genesis is written as a hymn and not a literal scientific description, I think there is some leeway in how you interpret it. But that's just one example
2 Cor 5:8 ... and we would rather be away from the body, and at home with the Lord. Paul does not say "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Paul in context is longing to be with the Lord. Now read John 14:2-3 Jesus describes many rooms in his fathers house. He describes he is preparing a place. He describes when he will come again, and take us there. The place he is preparing.
It was mystery to them back then. But now through Christ the mystery's revealed via God's gift to the body the church the people God none other than (Dr Heiser) 😊🙏
Martha responds to Jesus about Lazarus saying knows of the resurrection. 1Corinthians says Resurrection is a basic doctrine. The focus seems to be that.
What about verses like John 6 : 39-40, Messiah said : This is the desire of the Father who sent Me, that all He has given Me I should not lose of it, but should raise it in the last day. 40“And this is the desire of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him should possess everlasting life. And I shall raise him up in the last day.”
*That refers to what Paul speaks of regarding the resurrection of the dead preceding those who are raptured. The Last day refers to the Day of the Lord which is a season which begins with His pouring out wrath on the ungodly, serving an indictment on the earth, the Resurrection of the dead and the Rapture of the saints where they receive physical glorified bodies like Christ has. It is not a 24 hr period.*
Here is another verse along those same lines, Caroline. _Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day._ (John 11: 24, KJV)
There are a lot of people on here who are either not reading the Bible or do not know how to rightly divide the word there is before Jesus ascended and after Jesus ascended which makes all the difference in this discussion
*"[T]here is before Jesus ascended and after Jesus ascended[,] which makes all the difference in this discussion."* What is the difference, as you see it, Landy?
I will answer my own question, Landy. Before/After makes no difference. The dead before were 100%, all-the-way dead. The dead after are 100%, all-the-way dead.
I have found that the words recited by many of Paul are the MOST misquoted scripture amongst many. Paul didn't say, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." However, he did say, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8)... In context of the passage it details his meaning, "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)" (2 Corinthians 5:1-7) Paul clearly says that we are longing to put off this earthly house (body), desiring to be clothed upon with our house (body) which from heaven. Verse 6 blows this idea into greater emphasis by saying, "whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord." Paul doesn't want us to be comfortable in these earthly bodies, not when Christ is going to give us a new body fashioned like unto His glorious body (Philippians 3:21). If we die our next conscious thought, for those who are saved in Christ Jesus, will be us present with the Lord in their house (body) from heaven at the Lord's coming. Thus, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." He is simply saying he'd rather be absent from this sinful state of living in a body that is prone to decay and death, because he knows his next house/state of being will be an eternal one standing present with the Lord.
Luke 16 : 23 And the rich man in hell lifted up his eyes being in torment and sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom.... There was a separation between those who loved GOD and those who didn't....GOD preserves those who are HIS ...
Old Testament notwithstanding, the New Testament teaches that no one was ever resurrected before Jesus. This means that those who "slept" (as Paul put it) were resurrected AFTER Jesus was resurrected which made it possible for them to live again. 1Corinthians 15 is the resurrection chapter and explained all of this.
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Question? There seem to be parallels between the greek myth regarding Hades/Elysian Fields and the underworld and Abraham's Bosom. Could it be that they are one in the same? That's what I have believed for several years now.
Me too, especially if you believe in Christs descent into Hades/Sheol to "exodus" the captives there before his Resurrection. Also the reason Egyptians may have been more optimistic might have been, as I've heard, that they believed in a general resurrection at the end of the world. Was hoping Dr. Heiser was addressing this.
@@Jim-Mc *The idea of baptisms and resurrections have always been correlated. The idea of the Resurrection pre-dates the Torah and it pre-dates Christology. The harvesting of souls is as old as writing. Christianity didn't invent the concept of the Resurrection. Christ presented an alternative to what was to happen post resurrection, to escape judgement.*
The Greek mythos takes the reality and fashions it into other stories.... such as the case of the angels who sinned against God and are now bound in chains in Tartarus, being fashioned into the story of the Titans (sons and daughters of the gods) who rebelled and made war with the gods....and then thrown into Tartarus, traditionally understood as the lowest level of Hades.
What is the name for this belief about death and dying: When we die our spirit (the thing that gives us life or animates us) goes back to God who supplied it, our soul (personality, emotions, memories, and unique proclivities) ceases to exist, and the body goes in the grave/decomposes. No one who is dead right now or has ever dies is in heaven or suffering in burning fire. They are just dead. On the Last Day God will physically resurrect everyone in order to judge them. Those who don't know Christ will experience the Second Death where they will be burned to oblivion. Those who do know Christ will live forever in the New Heaven and New Earth. What is the name of this belief?
Hi. I just became a Christian but I still have some unanswered questions. Dr. Michael Heiser is a huge help. When I asked in a Christian Chat why God allows human suffering, the answers I got was that he lets people suffer because they did bad things and don't keep the mosaic laws. Can someone answer that or is this answer right? That would be helpful.
@The Legendary One I am so thrilled and Jesus is too! He died for you too. You are loved. I am going to try and answer you the best I can. God gave us a free will, therefore He will never force us do not to do or to do things that we should or shouldn't. However when you surrender willingly, the Holy Spirit will guide you away from self-destruction towards holynes. ( That soft quiet voice inside you) It is a lifetime journey God wants you to love Him with all your heart, all your soul and all your might (All your power, soul and mind) - Detronomy 6:5 And you neighbour including your enemies, like yourself. Make time to seek the presence of our Almighty God: Father (YHVH) in the name of Jesus (Yeshua haMeshiac) through the Holy Spirit Ruach haCodesh). Jesus gave us a wonderful prayer Matthew 6:9 to 13 Please read it and make it your own. It is a frame for all other prayers. Verse 9 We acknowledge the Holynes of God's name Verse 10 We want His Kingdom to come on earth (also in our hearts) as it is in heaven (holy and untainted) Verse 11 We ask for His provisions Verse 12 We ask for forgiveness is our sins. Confess your sins, all of them. He already knows everything. Forgive everyone that sinned against you. This sets you free from the burden of bitterness, hatred and remorse. Also forgive yourself. Verse 13 a)We ask God to help us to resist temptation. (We will then be able to recognize temptation beforehand and resist) b)We ask to be delivered from evil. c) We acknowledge that power and the glory and everything belong to God. - He is in control! Verse 14 Jesus tells us we have to forgive to be forgiven. I wish I could talk to you face to face. I have failed Him several times, my entire life. He never gives up when we surrender. Seeking God is a lifetime journey. By reading the scriptures we receive understanding and wisdom and the gifts of the Spirit. Love Hope Faith (1 Corinthians 13) and many other spiritual gifts. Healing the sick, prophecy, etc. Some receive all and some only one. (See the parable of the talents) If you don't understand certain passages, ask the Holy Spirit and read again. Just be warned the nations have done abbomable things - we are not to judge. Judgement and wrath belong to God. Jesus explains that if we don't forgive, we won't be forgiven. Read the entyre Bible. Start with the New Testament. Read the Old Testament in between. My prayer for is that you will experience the Love of Christ in all it's fullness and that you will grow in knowledge, understanding, wisdom and peace that surpasses all human understanding.
God will not leave me in the grave. Hebrews believe in the resurrection not a land of gathering souls. Remember Martha speaking to Christ about the resurrection?
I did quite a bit of readings about the intermediate state. Hope this can help in contributing to the discussion somewhat. Others feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken (: Generally there seems to be 3 views regarding the intermediate state. Unlike the final state of humankind (post resurrection) which is talked about explicitly in scripture, unfortunately, there isn’t really any clear cut teaching about what happens during the intermediate state. 1) a conscious intermediate state, in heaven for believers and in Sheol/Hades for the wicked which is currently the predominant view in Christianity. For the latter, most views involve the wicked being in torment. The basis of the righteous being in heaven after death lies mainly in statements about being away from the body equates to being in the presence of the Lord. The basis of the wicked being in torment in hades comes from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Some of my personal reflection of this. While I do feel that the argument of being away from the body equates to being in the presence of the Lord is a strong argument that believers reside in heaven after death, it might be an overstatement to state about them being conscious there. Perhaps believers might be in a state of sleep while in heaven and this can reconcile with other statements by Paul saying that the righteous are asleep. This also resolves the problem of Paul mentioning that the disembodied state is undesirable (2 Corinthians 5:3-4) ie if u are asleep, the discomfort of disembodiment will not matter I do not really agree that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is an explicit evidence for post mortem punishment for the wicked because of the concept of divine accommodationism. Just as how God accommodates to the ancient science in Genesis in revealing revelation, this parable could be Jesus using common afterlife beliefs in the second temple period to teach other lessons without necessarily affirming the view point. A nagging doubt I have about this doctrinal standpoint is that a blissful/ torment intermediate state downplays the significance of the resurrection and the last judgment of the righteous and the wicked. It seems that scripture consistently emphasises on the post resurrection state of the righteous as their reward rather than post mortem heaven. The idea of one suffering in the intermediate state also raises issues of fairness of punishment before judgment. It could mean that someone who died in 1230 and is suffering in Hades will end up suffering more than someone who died in 1780. This in particular is problematic for annihilationists as the idea of proportionate punishment is one of the key arguments for the teaching. There are also few Christians who believe in post mortem salvation opportunities in hades as well, claiming that the point of Hebrews 9:27 is not to deny post modern salvation but it’s to make a comparison with Jesus death bringing salvation instead of judgment coming to man. 2) soul sleep/soul death. I distinguish between these 2 as I view the former as one being in a state of unconsciousness/semi consciousness in hades while the latter often involves a monist anthropology which denies an immaterial soul. Sometimes the latter involves the belief the soul dies with the body at death. Either way, the intermediate state in a phase of unconsciousness. The strength of this view for me lies in the OT. The many verses in the OT speaking about inactivity and lack of cognitive thought serve as quite clear evidence that the intermediate state is thought of as unconscious. A significant verse that do affirms this views also is Job 21:13 where it is described that the wicked go to Sheol in peace, not in torment. Job 3:17 also mentions the wicked cease from turmoil in Sheol. Also as mentioned in the preceding point, the emphasis of the significance of the resurrection and last judgment is also another strength for this position. One theologian also wrote that Jesus parables about the final judgment reflect surprise amongst the wicked for their fate eg Matthew 7:23 as indication that they were unconscious in hades and did not expect them to be rejected by God post resurrection I do not necessarily agree that with Heiser that the presence of offerings to the dead deny the existence of the belief of soul sleep in ancient Israel thought. Note that the Sadducees also denied the existence of an afterlife. At most the practice of offerings to the dead suggests that there were Israelites who believed the dead were conscious in Sheol, which might come from their pagan neighbours. That being said, personally I feel the OT is not an ultimatum to teaching soul sleep. Again with the principle of divine accommodation, it is quite clear that when Sheol is being mentioned in the OT, it is not the authors main intention to teach theology about the intermediate state. God could have used existing afterlife beliefs without affirming them as a vehicle to convey inerrant theological truths just as how genesis science was used to convey inerrant theological truths. Lastly, I need to mention that there are Christian’s who believe that in the NT, while the righteous goes to heaven, the wicked lie in soul sleep in their attempts to form their systematic theology. 3) this view is quite uncommon but this view denies the existence of the intermediate state altogether. It has a view that the final judgment occurs outside of time and when one dies, he or she is transported to the final judgment. Personally I feel this view is quite problematic cos Paul seems to write the time of judgment and resurrection as some time in the future and not after death. Also, it raises problems of ppl being raised from the dead like Lazarus being dead for a few days. It’s quite unthinkable for Lazarus to be transported to the time of resurrection only to be brought back to real time again
In regard to one suffering in torment for hundreds of years more or less than the other, i believe that in this spiritual realm, the concept of earthly time does not apply, only what God determines as the proper "age" for His justice to take place. Annihilation comes at the Lake of fire judgment at the Great White Throne, where even death itself and Hades will be utterly destroyed. The guilty will suffer their due punishment before the destruction of both body AND soul in the fiery lake.
@@daseguin correct me if I’m wrong but based on your understanding, the due punishment of an individual occurs in Hades and then annihilation occurs in the Lake of fire? However, Jesus statements of judgment seems to suggest that the varying levels of torment received by the wicked occurs on judgment day in the lake of fire as suggested in Matthew11:22. It seems to me that both different levels of punishment and annihilation occurs in the lake of fire rather than in hades
@@CuteChonkies He is referencing Tyre and Sidon as corporate entities there, and while the judgment is literal, He is simply emphasizing that their guilt is far less corporately than that of those who were actually supposed to be representing the True God before the nations. In the end, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, and those who rejected Him in the hour of His visitation will indeed be put to severe shame.
@@daseguin yes I agree that verse is referencing corporate entities. However, these corporate entities are made up of individuals and it was the unrepentant attitudes of the citizens that led to a pronouncement of the judgment on their nations. Ultimately, when these nations are being judged, the individuals who make up these nations will be punished as well on judgment day with varying levels of suffering
@@CuteChonkies Yes, as was stated, that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. These will be thrown into the Lake of Fire in complete shame.
Reading some of the comments and I find it interesting that the Christian tradition calls it resurrection, when it seems to be reincarnation. Paul points out later (or before, depending on your view) "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." It would seem Christ was never resurrected, he was reincarnated, as he received a new body. This explains the post death appearances where he could not be recognized and was alive despite having wounds (that Thomas touched) that would have killed him, he was in an 'incorruptible' state. This state, from the story, makes it seem like Christ was able to change his appearance and was immune to death. Per Paul, this was not a 'flesh and blood' body as we think of it, though it was material at times.
It is refreshing to read a post where the writer took pains to get the spelling, grammar, sentence structure, case, etc. correct. The content was well thought out and presented, too. Thank you for sharing with us, John.
Isn't reincarnation a recycling of life, as in people come back as another form of life until they get it right and reach nirvana? Jesus Christ didn't come back as another life form. He was resurrected, the same person, in a glorified body. Nowhere in Christian doctrine does reincarnation exist.
@@winniecash1654 I’m glad you asked and thank you for your response. Reincarnation has many forms, one being an embodiment in a new form, especially the reappearance of a person in another form, which appears to be what the texts point to. Another is obtaining a new, considerably improved, body, which also falls in line with the texts. I am aware of the doctrine many Christians hold, but it would seem that it is not actually the case. A glorified body is indeed a different body, not flesh and blood, per Paul. I would ask this, do you think Jesus could die again? If not, then the body he received was very much different.
@@Προμηθεύς-β1β well, since I've read the Bible through many times in my life, I want to let you know that nowhere does it speak of reincarnation. Reincarnation is a thought from somewhere else. It is unbiblical. I just want you to be sure of this, lest you think it has any place in Judeo-Christian belief.
@@winniecash1654 I hope you had a good New Years! I find it interesting that you would say that it is unbiblical after pointing out information, from the Bible, that seems to show just that and not providing any evidence to the contrary. As pointed out, there are many ideas of reincarnation, not just the eastern mainstream ones. The ancient near east was full of trade, people telling each other stories and sharing ideas. The Bible is also evidence of that. I have also read the Bible many times as I was brought up Christian, by a very religious family, that doesn’t give a viewpoint more veracity. It is however, one of my favorite collections of ancient literature, but I do prefer the original languages. I also find it interesting that you claim that there is no place for reincarnation in Judeo-Christian belief. Surely you know this is your opinion and not fact. A Pew research poll from 2018 shows that 29% of US Christians believe in reincarnation, so your claim is certainly nothing to be sure of. What is sure, is that there are many different thoughts on the subject and that is ok. Was Jesus resurrected? I think to make it so would take a case of special pleading, but Christian dogma has sculpted many peoples views on what the word means. Transmigration might be the better term, but even if resurrection is settled on, it still does not mean the same mortal body as the texts clearly state that was not the case. If it did, then clearly Jesus could die again and I don’t think anyone would say that is the case.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 ESV [20] But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [21] For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. [23] But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Old Testament saints. Hebrews 11:39-40 ESV [39] And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, [40] since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. I do not think the Old Testament verse can answer the question. Because even the religious leader of out Lord’s day were uncertain regarding this matter. So it would be wise to defer to the New Testament scriptures. Acts 23:6-8 KJVS [6] But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. [7] And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided. [8] For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write his epistles and John, who lacked a formal education compatible to Paul was inspired to write this. Revelation 6:9-11 KJVS [9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. 2 Peter 1:19-21 KJVS [19] We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. [21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. It seems to me that theologians like to infer that those that wrote the Bible to some small or large degree did it under their own inspiration. Which is not the case. You have to have the Spirit of God to understand the deep things of God. 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 KJVS [9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. [10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. [11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. [13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. [16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Afterlife in OT? in NT? Nope; let Christ answer that himself: "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know." Only until Christ returns. That's why Christ called death "sleep" in the grave.
No, Paul did not say _"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."_ Heiser here quotes 2 Corinthians 5: 8 incorrectly and out of context. By so doing he turns Paul's message on its ear. Anyone who takes the time to read verse four will immediately see that Paul is _not_ talking about dying and going to heaven.
We are born spiritually dead via Adam. Thats why we must be born from above. When a believer dies they immediately rise cuz they can no longer die. The lost are dead until the judgement then they receive thier penalty based on thier deeds. The soul is simply the breath of God that gives us bodily life. In believers that soul is transformed along when they are born again. In a sinner, the breath never returns.
I believe in Soul Sleep in Sheol. I think scripture is pretty firm on it, so I can see why Heiser's views were minority in this. In fact I don't even think people are in Heaven right now, not even the Apostles, but this I believe happens when Christ returns to Earth physically to establish a Kingdom upon it, and the faithful "wake up" to resurrect. And it's my position that this was also the view of Paul in his letters. People often mistake the spirit and the soul to be the same thing, but scripture actually defines them both as separate things. The soul is the person, the consciousness, whilst the spirit is the "breath of life". Hence, the soul appears to sleep, whilst the spirit (breath, the "lifeforce") returns to God (ie; it's in his hands, your life is in his hands). To live, the soul, spirit and body have to be unified as one. And this is what the resurrection of eternal life promises us in the NT, to stand up from the grave, to "receive new bodies", mortality putting on immortality. I think that the hope the righteous had in the OT of "Not being left in Sheol" as expressed in the Psalms, were expressions of the "hope" they had, knowing God would not leave them eternally to sleep, but that salvation was coming. It wouldn't surprise me that Israelites would bury objects with the dead. It could have been a memento, another possibility is that the Israelites may have wanted to them "physically resurrect out the grave" with these cherished items in hand. Cremating was seen as sacrilege for this very reason, as they wanted to preserve the bones for the bodies to be able to stand up again in the future. Of course, if it really was because they believed the objects would go with them to another life, then it would, I think, have been the belief of the "individual". As we shouldn't forget, the Israelites often were guilty of interfaith and adopting beliefs that were not "kosher" throughout history, against what was written in the Torah. Some Israelites homes had idols in them of false gods, but we wouldn't use this to say it was therefore "scripturally accurate" or approved of God to worship idols.
Dr. Heiser is wrong when he says God is up there not down there. God is omnipresent e.g. Psalm 139:8 : 8 > If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Where is hell, or Lake of fire or bottomless pit or abyss ? Only thing we are told is the following - Luke 16:23 > And in Hell he (the rich man who died) lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus (the poor beggar who died) in his bosom. Luke 16:26 > And beside all this, between us (Abraham and those in Paradise) and you (rich man who died along with unbelievers who died) there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Ecclesiastes 12:7 > Then shall the dust (Man was made of the dust of the Earth) return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Revelation 20:4 > And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and "reigned with Christ a thousand years." Job 14:12-14 > So man lieth down, and "riseth not: till the heavens be no more", they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest "hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past", that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, "till my change come." 1 Corinthians 15:52-54 > In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and "we shall be changed". For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:26-28 > The last enemy that shall be destroyed is Death. For HE hath put all things under His feet. But when HE saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that HE is excepted, which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto HIM that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. Revelation 21:1-3 > And I saw a New Heaven and a New Earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; ... And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, ... And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and HE will dwell with them, and they shall be HIS people, and God HIMSELF shall be with them, and be their God. It's only at the end of Christ's thousand year reign that culminates in the gathering of all Believers. That's when gather all things in Heaven and all things on Earth to fulfill the prophecy below- 2 Thessalonians 1:7- 10 > And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power; When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. On completion of Christ's thousand year reign on the kingdom of heaven on Earth, He goes back to the Father after completing the mission that was entrusted to Him by the Father. Ephesians 1:10 > That in the dispensation of the fulness of times (end of Millenium) HE (Heavenly Father) might gather together in one "all things" in Christ, both which are in Heaven, and which are on Earth; even in Him: Question - Isn't Job's Redeemer the same One who is also our Redeemer? But Job's expectation about the coming of the Redeemer is only when the Heaven and Earth passes away; that's only at the end of time i.e. close of thousand year reign of Christ. The reality according to the Word of God for the future is a 2nd coming to establish His kingdom of heaven on Earth after the fulfilment of the prophecies of Exekiel 36 & 37 made to only Jews & Israel of Old Testament times. And a final gathering of all Believers at the end of His thousand year reign to fulfill the prophecies of Ephesians 1:10 and 2 Thessalonians 1:10. God is triune (not a trinity). 1 John 5:7 > For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE. So all that we can summarise is that (i) there is a barrier between Hell & Paradise, (ii) Paradise is different from the 3rd Heaven (where God is worshipped by the Holy Heavenly assembly, (iii) the final abode of all Believers will be on the New Earth and The Triune God will dwell with them for eternity. Shalom
Dear Dr. Michael this .... It is a Surats from the Qur’an that talks about the Day of Resurrection and the torment th-cam.com/video/azSI004kOgU/w-d-xo.html
_And their dead bodies will lie on the street of _*_THE GREAT CITY_*_ which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified._ (Rev 11.8). _The woman [Babylon per 17.5] whom you saw is _*_THE GREAT CITY_*_ which reigns over the kings of the earth._ (Rev 17.18). _”And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth/land.”_ (Rev 18.24) _”Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!”_ (Mat 23.37)
Mr. professor you forgot Daniel vision that says knowledge will increase. and that mean knowledge among Israel in that time not even can be compare with modern biblical time. how do you assume what they do is all right? they even cannot identify Jesus as messiah. how do you think if they have similar culture with Egypt it mean it was absolute truth? they way you thinking is totally absurd. even Abram home town Ur is the place of the biggest ziggurat in Iraq and they worshipping seraphim not YHWH Tarah suppose have those culture to. Jews was a race and tribe born from assimilation with Pagan they intermarriage their kids with sinner. so you says they are clean? even Christian today worship in Sunday instead Saturday as God commanded.
Absent from the body, present with The Lord now since the resurrection, why are we still debating this. Jesus even said about the rich man and Lazarus, both were conscious and aware of their environment. Either the bible is true or we can all pack up and forget about it. when Jesus was on the cross he told the thief you will be with me in paradise today. And it also says Jesus preached to the dead before he led the believers up to be with Father God and led the enemies in derision as captives. maybe I just don't get the questions others have ?
I might put something in my parents casket, with them, when they die... But it's not cause I think they're gonna use 'it' in the afterlife. I don't agree at all with this interpretation of prior generations doing this for any reason other than emotional, sentimentality.
@@diollinebranderson6553 that was my whole point, if we aren't burying loved ones with anything more than nostalgia and sentimentality than how can we declare that idolatry is the reason ancient people did the same thing?
You have studied this in depth and can with certainty give me references that prove it? Even though theologians argue about it because it’s not clear? Jesus said to the thief on the cross next to him “ today you will be with me in paradise “. I don’t think the Bible is clear nor are the scholars that study it.
3:25 assumption , in the case of Israel..... Or it's because Israelites decided to incorporate pagan practices. 3:45 ..... In the pagan Nations, correct. That was their viewpoint. Ecclesiastes says that the spirit returns to the Father who gave it, Ezekiel 18:4 says that the soul perishes, they are not the same soul and spirit are not interchangeable. They are never the same word in the original biblical languages, but ecclesiastes also makes a simple, clear and direct statement at the fate of men and animals is the same and that the dead are conscious of nothing at all. But the theme is that there is a future hope for those who have died through the resurrection power which was not only demonstrated by Elisha or Elijah in the Old testament can never keep them straight but also demonstrated in the New testament.
The dead, know, and do, nothing. They are simply dead. A dead person, is a dead soul (life). The spirit, is simply God's knowledge of who, and where you are. When you are resurrected to judgement, you are eligible to BECOME A SPIRIT. Paul doesn't say to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. He said RATHER WILLING to be present with the Lord. If You're dead, you're NOT absent from your body.
*"Paul doesn't say to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. He said RATHER WILLING to be present with the Lord."_ YES! YES! YES! And in verse four Paul makes it plain that he is NOT talking about some disembodied part flying away at death but, rather, he is longing for Christ's second coming. I am too.
Was he confusing soul with ruach / spirit? Because that doesn’t answer the question, his answer just went in the loop of a a hellenised belief regarding the soul (body + breath) which is the ne’phesh or psy’khe but not the Ruach/ spirit.
The simplest answer is that the Ruach / spirit/ breath of life, goes back to The Most High🔥. Soul needs the Ruach to be alive . Soul is body + ruach= a living body ( soul ) Ruach is as it is and the giver of life (breath of life)
He's almost got it! Great job Dr Michael Heiser. Christ even said himself that we sleep when we die. Lazarus is a great example. Christ said to the disciples Lazarus is sleeping and they replied why don't you go and wake him up and Christ replied he's dead.. this is why the Bible is clear when Christ returns "the dead in Christ shall rise first". When we die we sleep in the grave waiting for the Lord's return.. there is no one burning in Hellfire at the moment because that's reserved for judgment and judgment has not yet taken place.. there's also no one in heaven except the only evidence in the Bible is that Christ ascended. As for everyone else we sleep in the grave awaiting for the Lord's return.
Very disappointing to see/hear such a great Biblical scholar misquote and wrongly apply the verse from 2Chorinthians 5:8. The statement in the verse is not an If/Then statement.
The question is does the Bible teach that we HAVE. A separate soul?? JWS and others would show that it doesn’t And it’s a convincing case But. Does it?
It does not. Genesis 2, teaches that man is animate and thinking matter thanks to Gods incredible power and craftsmanship, and when we die we go back to being inanimate unthinking matter, like a rock or dust. It says a body is a soul not has a soul. A soul can be dead or alive. It then says that the animating principle, the thing that gives it it’s life is spirit/breathe from God. The word spirit has different meanings depending on context but I think here it means breathe not a separate soul that is your consciousness. Pray about it, let God give you the answers.
Man does not have a soul man is a soul Genesis 2: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man 👉🏾became a living soul.
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (John 11, KJV)
@@graysonshaw1621 *:not the same story."* I agree. The story I referred to, however, was a real, historic account. The other is no more a historic account than is the story of the tortoise and the hare. Both of the last two are meant to teach an overarching point. The characters are not the message in either one.
@@IsaacNussbaum a. You can’t say that the rich man & Lazarus is not a true story. It is not specified as a parable. b. Why would Jesus talk about heaven and hell before the resurrection if it wasn’t how it worked then?
@@graysonshaw1621 *You can’t say that the rich man & Lazarus is not a true story.* I can and I did. If the rich man and Lazarus were conscious following death then Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived, except for Jesus, made a big boo-boo when he wrote: __For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing...."_ (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
Let me begin with "Paul says "absent from the body present with the Lord" But he says it in this order, 1. There is a resurrection. 2. Present with the Lord. 3 There is a Judgment. See how it is sandwiched between two ideas? And all three of those things take place at the same time. Meaning, he is not saying "at any time you will be present with the lord" he is saying "at the resurrection you will be present with the Lord and that is when the judgment is." Just like it says in countless other passages. People use that one verse almost exclusively. Also, lets not forget that protestants were battling Catholics and their views of purgatory. That is probably why that one verse is welded out of context so much. As for absurdities in belief about heaven... How about Jesus saying to the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in paradise" then Jesus goes to the underworld for three days and walks around earth for 40 days? Wherever paradise is, it isn't in heaven. How about there being one resurrection every time it is brought up and yet most people believe in two resurrections at minimum, unless they believe in a rapture then there are three. One being at the time of Christ's resurrection, one being at the time of the rapture and one being after the tribulation. Something doesn't add up with both what Mike thinks or what is the commonly held view. There are too many moving parts in most people's views. Why would your soul go to heaven, then your body is resurrected and then, for some nonsensical reason, we get a new body that is from heaven? Why have a resurrection at all if you and your new body are in heaven? I hope someone figures it out in a logical way because the common views make no sense. Anyways, Abrahams's bosom sounds like it was a real place in Christ's mind. And that is probably the Sheol thing.
All good questions, Investfluent. The most common belief among evangelicals today is nonsensical on its face. 1. die and go to heaven 2. come back to Earth to get a glorified body 3. return to heaven 4. come back to Earth
@@IsaacNussbaum YEAH! Thank you! It makes no sense. I believe in Jesus and I believe in an eternity with him. But heaven doesn't sound like it is on the itinerary. And even if it is, it is only for a blip in eternity. The absolute longest stint would be if there was a ressurection at the time of Christ for believers and you made it to heaven then. And you stay until Christ returns to earth. You would have been in heaven for 2000 years (provided he comes soon) That is not long nor does Christ remain in heaven in either the millennial reign or the new heaven and the new earth. So absent from the body present with the lord would be nearly exclusively on earth or the new earth. Why anyone would say you "go to heaven" as though it is a final destination is mind boggling.
This is what I've discovered: Abraham's bosom, & Jesus telling theif on the corss; 'today you will be with me in paradise'. Luke 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus 19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and [a]fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with [b]the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ 27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ” Epesians 4:8 ....When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive. These raised saints came forth with Jesus, immortalized, and later ascended with Him to heaven. It was appropriate that Christ should bring forth with Him from the grave some of the captives whom Satan that had been held in the prison house of death. These were a symbol of His triumph.
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Dr . Michael Heiser is now with Jesus .....he is experiencing first hand heaven in all its glory . Thankyou Michael for equipping believers so beautifully we will miss you . Prayers for family
No he's not. Eventually, maybe, but not now.
@@Patto2276 . Correct. The Judgement Day and the Resurrection are yet to come. Until then, we will lay asleep in the grave.
@@Patto2276I guess from his perspective he is since you can't experience a gap in consciousness. Just like surgery you go under and then suddenly you're awake and it's over.
@@CRay-yq3nm Thats why Jesus told the thief on the cross "TODAY" you will be with ME in paradise. As we all know, paradise is when you lay asleep in the grave.
@@CRay-yq3nm according to Jesus, the judgment would happen before "that generation" passed away. Both in the beginning and the end of revelation, John says the time was near, and these things were about to happen.
Praying for your healing dr. Heiser.
Amen.
What’s going on with his health?
@@ratherboutside2 Pancreatic cancer. It's usually lethal so keep him in your prayers. They are going to operate. They may have already done it.
@@malvokaquila6768 he gone
@@polarvortex6601 I am aware. While I have lost access to future help from him, he is in a better place. I will join him soon enough.
Eggsellent 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 Paul said more to emphasise his statement too, he added he would remain for our sakes. There's no ambiguity. Absent from body = present with Jesus for believers. Good enough for Paul, good enough for this little old doorkeeper.
I believe in soul sleep because of this passage as well as the fact that no can go to either heaven or the lake of fire before the judgement.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Even the statement by Paul about leaving the body as being with the Lord doesn't necessarily change this. For the person dying they are instantly with God because for them no time has passed. It's like waking up in the recovery room after surgery. One second your counting backwards and the next your opening your eyes in recovery.
This is a belief that I have, and to just add on to your point, this belief is based on how Jesus himself has described death.
John 11:11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”
Hey! I have these 2 articles which will explain the Ecclesiates 9:5 passage, I will also write a part of the answer in case you do not look at the link:)
Thanks for sharing this view, I remember going through it, and being confused but after I read these articles, i understand it does not mean soul sleep
Solomon(who wrote Ecclesiates) is not focused on the spirit; instead he is speaking of the physical body. Eventually, those living on planet earth will forget about us. Just allow enough time to elapse and we will be forgotten. When we die we will not longer experience the rewards, or work, hobbies, or whatever gives one some sense of purpose. After we die we will not experience love, hate or a driving passion for anything in our dead physical body. We will not remember anything or share in the things that we once enjoyed.
The message of Ecclesiastes is that life is empty. We are born into the world and die. The message of these two verses is that we gain nothing in this life. The old statement that we cannot take it with us, misses the point that is even worse than that. Not only can we not take it with us, but we will be soon forgotten after we die. There is no life in the grave. Our dead bodies will not experience anything. Even the grave is disappointing. Solomon is not speaking of our spirit. He speaks of our spirits later in Ecclesiastes 12:7. His focus here is on the mortal body. Therefore, life is not just over; it is empty and so is the grave! Not only is life disappointing but the grave is too! There is no enjoyment in the grave for our dead physical bodies for which we so diligently cared
The author of the book of Ecclesiastes is King Solomon. In the first two verses of Ecclesiastes he tells us that life is empty. Life is like trying to catch the wind in your hands (Ecclesiastes 1:14). You can’t do that! Life comes and goes. Life is empty, pointless and unfulfilling. The inheritance you leave behind will be squandered and selfishly consumed, in spite of one’s hard work. Throughout the book the message is that life is hallow. The only thing truly rewarding is eating and drinking. We make plans and our plans may not be achieved. If they are achieved, they will not last after we are gone. We encounter evil and oppression in this life and no one helps.
When we come to Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, Solomon is making the point that when we die this life is over, and you cease to enjoy the old life on planet earth
First, it is clear from other places in the Bible that this verse cannot mean the dead have absolutely no knowledge. For example, Matthew 25:46 speaks of everlasting consciousness: “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Every person will spend eternity with God in heaven or apart from Him in hell. Each person will have feelings, thoughts, and abilities that exist in eternity.
In fact, Luke 16:19-31 offers an example of human capabilities in the afterlife. Lazarus is in paradise in eternal joy, while the rich man is in torment in hell (called “Hades”). The rich man has feelings, can talk, and has the ability to remember, think, and reason.
Second, Ecclesiastes 9:5 cannot contradict Ecclesiastes 4:2. There, Solomon states that the dead are “happier than the living.” However, when a person is dead, the opportunities to enjoy things on earth no longer exist.
The key to understanding the statement “the dead know nothing” is found in the theme of the book of Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes is written specifically from an earthly perspective. The key phrase, repeated throughout the book, is under the sun, used about thirty times. Solomon is commenting on an earth-bound life, “under the sun,” without God. His conclusion, also repeated throughout the book, is that everything from that perspective is “vanity” or emptiness (Ecclesiastes 1:2).
When a person dies “under the sun,” the earthly perspective, without God, is that it’s over. He is no longer under the sun. There is no more knowledge to give or be given, just a grave to mark his remains. Those who have died have “no further reward” in this life; they no longer have the ability to enjoy life like those who are living. Eventually, “even their name is forgotten” (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
Ecclesiastes 9:5 displays a chiastic structure (ABBA format) like this:
A “For the living know that they will die,
B but the dead know nothing;
B they have no further reward,
A and even their name is forgotten.”
Lines 1 and 4 are parallel thoughts in the sense that the living know death is coming while those who remain after a person dies quickly forget those who have died. The second and third lines lay down associated ideas in parallel: the dead know nothing, and the dead can no longer enjoy or be rewarded for their activities in this life.
The saying “the dead know nothing” seems to be a negative sentiment, but it is not without a positive message. Solomon encourages his readers to live life to its fullest, knowing life is short. In the end, the fullest life is one that honors God and keeps His ways (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).
@@chefm4933 So I can understand that view point. But how can a person go to heaven before the judgement? I don't believe in the traditional hell. I believe that after the resurrection to judgement the lost will be thrown into the lake of fire and be forever destroyed. I don't believe in a "Dantes Inferno" style of eternal torment. The story of Lazarus was a parable.
I agree. I've seen evidenced that the good go to a good place in the Old Testament. Josephus mentions this as well.
We do need the Bible to keep our Faith strong in the Father of our Lord Jesus the Christ.
@Pond3r Thizp3t
The scriptures are and have been even in the times after the Old Testament(Covenant)
Gods way of speaking to his true believers. (Luke24:27) what would people have done if they waited on
God to speak only with audible commands. Read the Scriptures before you make ignorant comments.
Unless you think in your finite mind you know more than Gods Word. Shalowm.
This snippet raised more questions than it answered
Always in depth doctor. Much loved and valued
Your teachings are a blessing. Praying for your healing + recovery.
Made up garbage.
@@deeschoe1245 now that you’ve got that off your chest, where do we go from here?
@@mahaliavryheid2666 golearn the difference between assumptions, assertions, and actual evidence. Then you can learn how these conmen fool you into this pittiful cult
@@deeschoe1245 and yet here you are, commenting on a video, by a supposed conman and yet I’m the one who needs educating. Goodluck and Godspeed to you!
@@mahaliavryheid2666 yeah im commenting against his obvious bullshit. Inlike you gobbling it up by the shovelful!
I would say there are verses in the Ketuvim which convey an unconscious afterlife.
Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.
Because many people don't want to accept that the soul along with the body dies too. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Ezekiel 18:20 KJV.
Exactly.
The Bible says that the dead know nothing and sleep in the grave and their spirit goes back to the Farher. It’s that simple. The dead are unaware of being dead. However, we are told that all will resurrect - some during Rapture event , during the First Resurrection and some at the end of Millennium.
Both believes and unbelievers are unaware of being in the grave and of the time passing. When the resurrection happens (at different times for different groups) both groups became aware again. From the perspective of believer, a person dies and immediately opens eyes and is with the Lord. From the perspective of unbeliever, a person dies and immediately open eyes and faces judgement. The dead are not aware of time. The death must be death. Both groups physically die. Believer dies, open his eyes and realizes he has new body. Unbeliever dies, open his eyes and after judgement dies again - this is second death. Resurrection means only restoration of physical body so this body can die again. Lazarus was resurrected and certainly died again. No surprise then there is “second death”. Believers have their body transformed - so they become immortal.
This was the belief of early churches.
The torment and gnashing of teeth can be related with “waiting for the judgement” , when resurrected unbelievers are fully aware of the coming Judgement and possibly see the others thrown into the lake of fire.
Peter told us that “one day with the Lord is like one thousands years” - this is the hint to understand time relativity.
One verse out of context.
Pm פיטרוש מיכאל
Here is another one:
Ecclesiastes 9:5
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten
Alex If that was poetry only then thousands of people would have encounter with Jesus.
Seems some people forgot about "Abraham's bosom". Upon which Christ Himself taught on with Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man could see, hear, feel and suffer....
That is a parable. Not a literal thing that happens. When we all die, our bodies and our souls both die. Our souls return to Yahuwah. Dr. Heiser didn't mention that. It is Biblical.
@@JW-rn5ee parables didn’t have literal names of the people.
I recall a lesson that taught that this was the teachings of the Sadducees. Jesus was using it to make a point.
@@JW-rn5eeWe are comprised of body, spirit, and soul. When the father breathes the breath of life (spirit) into our bodies, it gives birth to our consciousness (soul). The mixing of the two creates a 3rd.
Gen 2:7 "Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a soul."
When we die the breath of life (spirit) returns to the father, not the consciousness(soul). Man returns to the earth, the body back to dust, and the soul to Sheol/Underworld/Hades.
In Matt 10:28 Jesus is talking about the 1st and 2nd deaths. The death of the body is the 1st death. The 2nd death is when the unsaved are resurrected, face judgement, then the body and soul is thrown into the lake of fire. The consciousness (soul) is only killed in the 2nd death. The spirit is the animating life force that is given from and returned to the father.
Matt 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
So why is the father creating a body for the unsaved to be resurrected into, just for it to be destoryed in the lake of fire? Because when you stand trial, you need to be fully awake. Even in man's court, we dont wheel in people in a veggitated state to face trial. So a soul without a body and spirit is in a dream like state, not fully awake. Its interesting that sheol and hades are used to describe the same place. The greeks had similar descriptions of the underworld.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_underworld
"The original Greek idea of afterlife is that, at the moment of death, the soul is separated from the corpse, taking on the shape of the former person, and is transported to the entrance of the underworld. Good people and bad people would then separate."
"In the Greek underworld, the souls of the dead still existed, but they are insubstantial, and flitted around the underworld with no sense of purpose. The dead within the Homeric underworld lack menos, or strength, and therefore they cannot influence those on earth. They also lack phrenes, or wit, and are heedless of what goes on around them and on the earth above them."
So even if Lazarus and the richman is a parable, its still using truth. The richman was in the bad side of sheol, in a dream like state, having nightmare like torments. Seeing in his dreams Lazarus and Abramham. Lazarus is in Abramhams bossum, in a dream like state, being comforted.
The wage of sin is death. So, if the rich man is concious, and burning, he is burning UNTO DEATH.
I’m glad you did this, I never believed soul sleep but when my dad passed I was looking on what happens when someone dies and was on Reddit and a lot of the Christian subreddits seemed to hold to soul sleep and had me thinking it was the majority view and I was super confused. Thanks again for sharing what the Bible and history say Dr Heiser. Praying for your health
The majority of scripture seems to point to death being sleep. Try reading Ecclesiastes, they talk about death a lot in there. I’m not saying there’s not a possibility in some form of consciousness after death only that it is definitely a minority of verses if any that point to that in scripture, with the overwhelming majority outright saying death is nothingness, silence, and sleep.
@@youngknowledgeseeker I think it's referred to as sleep bc you have no memory of time past. I think when you die, your consciousness "wakes up" at the judgment.
I think NDEs are different than this tho.
@@youngknowledgeseeker Then why does Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he will be with Him that very day?
@@sirpepeofhousekek6741 That's may be an issue of grammar. There are no commas in Greek, it could very well easily read "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise" rather than "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise". It's may not be such a cut and dry issue.
@@sirpepeofhousekek6741 Well I would say there are 2 theories to take on this.
1 would be that since there are people in Revelation asking God at His throne during the Tribulation, when will He will avenge their deaths, you could make a strong argument that post cross Christians would arrive in Heaven when they die.
Pre cross the belief was soul sleep bc David writes "no one can worship God from Sheol" which is post death where you lose consciousness. See the story of the witch at Endor to shed more light on that.
Now 2 you could argue that since Heaven has no time or timeline, then Jesus could have been referring to this day in Heaven, rather than this day in Earth. Earth's timeline doesn't correspond with Heavens eternity so every day on Earth is the same 1 "day" in Heaven.
In answer to your question, the "breath" leaves the body :-) Hans Walter Wolff has a great book on the concept of "Nephesh" or the breath through your neck, that really helped me (as a guy studying NT in graduate Seminary) to form my views of what Paul (and others) are talking about in places like 2Corinthians 5:1-10. I appreciate your ministry on TH-cam Dr. Heiser.
. . . [T]hen the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7 Question indicates a beliver who does not read or believe her scripture. Again, Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father John 20:17 Side bar: Don't you just love Mary's exclamation, "Rabboni!" Makes me cry every time.
😊😊😊 Job knew about the grave and the resurrection and felt confident his after life.😊😊😊
The righteous have the hope of not staying in Sheol because of something called ‘the resurrection’ when Yahshua calls the righteous up from the grave into new Jerusalem
No man can be right always. No man knows everything
Excellent.. I enjoy your take on stuff sir
David wrote, "Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me..." Death is but a shadow, the righteous and unrighteous do not die, we live eternally. Those who are "in Christ" are present with the Lord when they die physically. Jesus said to the thief, "Today you will be with me in paradise." Trust in Jesus today! Follow him.
4:27 Paul said he wishes to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. He does not say that to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
You point out that Paul never actually said, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” And you know what? They’re right. That exact phrase doesn’t appear in 2 Corinthians 5:8. What Paul actually says is: “Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” It’s a statement of preference, not a detailed explanation of what happens the moment we die. So, does this mean Paul wasn’t teaching that believers are consciously with Christ after death? Let’s take a closer look.
First, while 2 Corinthians 5:8 doesn’t explicitly say there’s no gap between being away from the body and being at home with the Lord, it strongly implies it. Paul clearly desires to leave this earthly body to be “at home” with the Lord, which suggests that he sees this as the next stage after death. There’s no indication in the text that he expects a period of unconsciousness or soul sleep.
But to understand this fully, we have to look at all of Scripture. For example, in Philippians 1:23, Paul says, “I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.” Again, there’s no mention of a delay or a state of unconsciousness. Paul’s expectation is clear: when he departs this life, he will immediately be with Christ.
Then there’s Luke 23:43, where Jesus tells the thief on the cross, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Jesus didn’t say, “Someday, after a long unconscious sleep, you’ll be with me.” He said, “today.” That’s a powerful affirmation of the conscious presence of the soul after death.
Even the Old Testament aligns with this understanding. In 1 Samuel 28, Samuel’s spirit appears to Saul, clearly aware of his surroundings and current events. This wouldn’t make sense if Samuel had been in a state of unconscious soul sleep.
So yes, while 2 Corinthians 5:8 doesn’t spell it all out, when we take it in context with the rest of Scripture, it’s consistent with the teaching that believers are immediately with the Lord after death. The paraphrase-“to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”-may not be the exact wording, but it reflects the biblical truth that our hope as believers is to be consciously in Christ’s presence when we leave this life.
At the end of the day, Scripture gives us confidence in what happens after death. While we might not have all the details, we can trust that the moment we leave this broken, earthly body, we will experience the joy of being with Christ.
Also there are different compartments in Sheol..you have Tartarus where the wicked angels are being held (Jude and Peter talk about this) you have the compartment for the wicked and you also have the compartment for the righteous called Abraham’s bosom and Yahshuah references this in one of his parables
Exactly right.
Jude and Peter were also quoting Enoch directly in those passages. Enoch has some problems, but I truly believe they’re from additions and subtractions made to the text by a improper line of preservers. There’s things in Enoch that are mind blowing next to scripture though, it’s worth a read 😁👍🏼
Amen!!!
In the Book of Enoch I have it says that there were four smooth holes in some mountain area and it described who goes to what hole. But when it came to the explanation it only give of three holes One for the wicked one for the sinners and one for the righteous. Concerning the hole for the sinner was that they will not have life in the afterlife but will not be annihilated like the wicked.
@@donnysath9084 there’s a chamber for the righteous martyrs too
Glad you addressed that age-old elephant that Paul supposedly stole all of his afterlife theology from Plato.
Paul had no “after-life” theology. Paul thought death was death and waited for and taught others to wait for resurrection to bring them out of it. Death was “sleep” for Paul.
@@youngknowledgeseeker no Paul said absent from the body present with the Lord and he said to stay here for the gospels or to be with the Lord I am caught between the two
@@saulreyes2976 yes but it was said in a context
@@youngknowledgeseeker ok
@@saulreyes2976 I know, you want me to actually show you, OK sure fine
I believe that nobody other than Enoch and Elijah went to be with God, until after Jesus died, went to sheol, conquered it and death and rose on the 3rd day. I don't believe heaven was open until Jesus accomplished the entire mission.
Hi Dr. Heiser. Hope you are getting healed. I continue praying for you.
In my opinion, different passages of the Scriptures convey an integrated answer to that question, that I wpuld try to sumarize like this:
In the Old Testament (before the Messiah´s Resurrection) dead went to Sheol where Paradise (Abraham´s Bossom) and Hell were, depending on if they were believers or not. One parable from The Lord clearly explained that (Lazarus and The Rich Man). After Jesus Resurrection, Abraham Bossom was emptied and they went to Heaven (First Fruits) with Jesus. They were "saved" but they couldnot enter Heaven because The Messiah had not already accomplished one of his objectives: Making The Men who believed righteous before God. Also after Jesus, whoever died continued going to Paradise and Hell but now, Paradise is not in Sheol but in Heaven, with God. That is why Paul says "absent from the body, present with The Lord", ONLY AFTER The Messiah came. Hell continues to be down but Abraham´s Bossom is now empty.
God Bless
May I know how you view this passage then?
Act 2:29 “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
This is after resurrection. Didn't peter knew that there were first fruits? He talked as David didn't resurrected yet but Jesus did. Also Paul said
2Co 12:3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise-whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows
Paradise is mentioned as may be one of the 3 heaven. How then is paradise in sheol?
Let me know if you have answer to this. God bless
@@Eben_Haezer
1. In “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day."
What is being spoken of is THE BODY, not the spirit. Yes, humans mostly bury the bodies. Dont we?
2. In "This is after resurrection. Didn't peter knew that there were first fruits? He talked as David didn't resurrected yet but Jesus did. Also Paul said"
We shall not confound the transportation of the Spirits or Souls of the Old Testament Saints from Paradise in Sheol to Paradise in Heaven with the FORMAL Resurrection spoken of by Paul. What happened in the Resurrection of Jesus was the consequence of the Redemption: Men did not have the RIGHT to stand before God BEFORE being REDEEMED. All we sinned, even the OT Saints. The animal sacrifices of the Leviticus rituals had the effect of COVERING sins NOT TO BLOW THEM OUT. Only Messiah blood cancelled (paid) men sins, so after Messiah Resurrection they were able to stand before God by being imputed the righteous of Christ. In the other hand, The Resurrection (formally spoken by Paul) is the receipt of the Inmortal Body (Glorious Body). OT Saints didnt receive it yet. Church Age believers (alive or dead) will receive it at THE RAPTURE, but not the OT Saints. They will have to wait until the end of The Tribulation. The Body of Christ, of which HE is the Head (His Bride) is the church, not the OT Saints. The OT Saints are "the friends" of the Bridegroom, and will be invited to the Wedding Feast of the Lamb at the begining of The Millenium here on Earth after being resurrected, even if the ceremony itself will be held in Heaven during The Tribulation and after the BEMA Seat Judgement, but they are not going to be part of the Wife of Christ. Only Real Believers will.
3. In "Paradise is mentioned as may be one of the 3 heaven. How then is paradise in sheol?"
I never said Paradise IS in Sheol. I said Paradise (Abraham´s Bossom) WAS in Sheol. And its not me who said so. Jesus said so in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. That is why we have to conclude that after his resurrection it was emptied or "moved" if you prefer to Heaven as after that Paul clearly says "Absent from the body is present with The Lord" who is not in Sheol (He was 3 days there) but in Heaven.
God Bless.
@@gustavocordobah77 Thank you for your response . You gave me something to think about .👍
@@Eben_Haezer Do you want the pdf copy of the book from a Messianic Jew Bible Scholar? If so, give me an email address where I could send it. It will leave you speechless!!!!
Shalom
@@gustavocordobah77 It's ok brother. i don't think i'll spend time on these topics more. Thank You very much for the offer.
Shalom.
The Hebrew word for grave is Sheol.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Most people don't study the greek which has led to so much false doctrine.
Ecclesiastes 9:10, which says: “Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.” Now, at first glance, this verse might seem to support the idea of soul sleep-that the dead are unconscious until the resurrection. But let’s take a closer look.
When we read Ecclesiastes, we need to understand the context. This book is focused on life “under the sun,” meaning it’s about the earthly, human perspective. The writer is saying that once we die, we can no longer participate in the activities of this life-like working, planning, or gaining knowledge on earth. It’s not making a definitive statement about what happens to our souls after death but is instead contrasting the vibrancy of life with the stillness of physical death.
Here’s why I don’t think this verse supports soul sleep. First, other parts of Scripture describe Sheol as a place where the dead are aware. For example, in Isaiah 14:9-11, the dead are portrayed as stirring and even speaking. In 1 Samuel 28, Samuel, who has died, is clearly conscious and aware when Saul consults him. These examples show that Sheol is not a place of unconsciousness.
Second, when we look at the New Testament, Jesus’ teachings confirm this. Take the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31-both men are clearly conscious in the afterlife, experiencing awareness and interacting. That’s not the picture of soul sleep.
Lastly, Ecclesiastes is wisdom literature. It often reflects on life and mortality from a very human perspective. It’s not trying to give us a full theology of the afterlife, but rather, it’s telling us to live with urgency and purpose while we have the chance.
So, when I read Ecclesiastes 9:10, I don’t see it as a statement about soul sleep. Instead, I see it as a call to live fully while we’re here on earth, knowing that after we die, our souls will continue in conscious existence, as the rest of Scripture makes clear. Let me know what you think about this-drop your thoughts in the comments!S
Jesus said to the thief on the cross to day you will be with me in paradise,(Luke 23:43 :) And also father Abraham said(Luke 16:23) to the rich man in Hell(hades) there is a great gulf whereby no one can pass from one side or the other. So it seems to me the Word of God does
Imply that the Spirit will live in one of those realms until the Resurection of all flesh for Judgment of Christ Jesus.
Jesus said, “Truly I tell you today you will be with me in Paradise.” Commas have been added in scripture, but they didn’t exist in the day. If commas existed in the language, you COULD put one after “today” and change the meaning.
@@forthwithtx5852
Ftwh T. You may change the sentence but the Word remains the same(G4594 semeron) Greek translation means this Day or to Day. I believe. Shalowm.
@@forthwithtx5852
It's absolutely ridiculous to believe that.
He used that common phrase in numerous passages, and never once did he follow it with "today", and that includes this time.
Also, how did He go "preach to the spirits in prison" when He descended into the lower depths, if there was no consciousness in Tartarus/Hades?
Your 1 of a kind my friend.
Jesus said it very simply....
That there was a "great chasm" separating "Hades" from "Paradise", i.e. "Abraham's bosom" ("third heaven").
"Sheol" was simply a term that the ancients used for the general principal of the "place of the dead".
It wasn't even until about mid Israelite culture that they began believing that the soul was alive after death.
The Greek mythos regarding Hades is what Jesus expounded upon regarding the truth that was to be extracted.
Read Enoch 22. That is where the concept came from. It’s not Greek. It’s of Yah.
@@pm5206 Please read the last sentence again.
The Greek mythos was based on the truth that already was.
I just found out he passed... wonderful guy.
There was a diversity of belief on this issue, as the scriptures clearly reflect, but before people get too caught up in what the ancients believed about an afterlife, remember: as Dr. Heiser himself has pointed out, they also believed the sky was a solid surface and the kidneys had something to do with emotion. For an indepth study of this issue, see "Hades, the Intermediate State of Man," by Henry Constable.
the sky is a solid surface a dome flat earth
The grave/Sheol/Hades is split into two, divided by a great gulf. One side for the righteous and one side for the unrighteous. The former being referred to as 'paradise' or 'Abraham's bosom', which has been empty since Jesus descended, took ownership of the keys and led the captives free (to be with Him in heaven along with all believers since). The unrighteous side remains populated (and ever moreso to-date).
Both the righteous and the unrighteous will be resurrected (two separate events), from their current situations and then rehomed respectively, either to the new earth ultimately, or to Hell.
@Pond3r Thiz Jesus said the kingdom of God is like; . Since with our earthly, soulish minds we are incapable of understanding what the kingdom of God is exactly.
Similarly with this parable then, Jesus is telling us elements of what Sheol/Hades is 'like'. From this we understand it's not a physical place, we understand it's a place where conciousness continues, we also understand that those who are destined for different places are kept apart. You disagree however, you're saying that's not the case. So what _do_ you think Jesus is telling us about the realm of the dead in this parable?
@@trevhib I don't think it's a parable because he actually NAMES names in the passages. Another reason why it's not a parable is because Jesus never describes this as a parable. What you read in that passage is what really happened. Again, it's clear that this isn't a parable because they have names. In parables, they're used as illustrations or something the Lord himself names, and the real intent in that passage is to underscore the reality of what He's saying from this chapter, etc.
@@DerrickthePinecone Hi Derrick. I agree, it does appear to be about real people (and therefore it's not a parable). Unfortunately my second post is now out of context because the person I was replying to has since deleted his, leaving mine isolated. In any case, in my second paragraph I would change the word 'parable' to 'story' in both instances if I were to write it again and that would more or less suffice 👍
@@trevhib Ah, I totally understand! It's weird how when a person you were responding to, their comment, disappears, it leaves your reply to them as a stand-alone, confusing the people that come along later and read it! Haha!
Anyway, glad we're on the same page here. God bless you, in Yeshua's Name!
@@DerrickthePinecone 🤲 Thank you, Derrick, may the Lord bless you too.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 "And the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit unto God that gave it."
Yes. That is what happens to the righteous and the unrighteous alike. (Lest some reader mistakenly think that the spirit mentioned here is a sentient disembodied part of man, let me add that the original Hebrew word, here translated "spirit," means wind, breath, exhalation, or life. In other words, what returns to God is the breath of life.)
Luke 16: 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and seeing Abraham far off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there.
This could be a “parable”.
@@youngknowledgeseeker I don't think it's a parable because he actually NAMES names in the passages. Another reason why it's not a parable is because Jesus never describes this as a parable. What you read in that passage is what really happened. Again, it's clear that this isn't a parable because they have names. In parables, they're used as illustrations or something the Lord himself names, and the real intent in that passage is to underscore the reality of what He's saying from this chapter, etc.
A question for you, Suzanne. The Christian dead will get new, spiritual bodies at the resurrection but between death and the resurrection the dead do not have bodies. What should we make of the fact that the dead characters in Luke 16 have bodies?
@@IsaacNussbaum no they don't lol
@@TomBombadil89 ...send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue.... (Luke 16: 23-24)
I am surprised at Dr. Heiser's misquoting of Paul. He did not declare to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He said he prefers to be absent from the body and be present with the Lord. So do I. That doesn't mean I go to heaven when I die.
You point out that Paul never actually said, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” And you know what? They’re right. That exact phrase doesn’t appear in 2 Corinthians 5:8. What Paul actually says is: “Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” It’s a statement of preference, not a detailed explanation of what happens the moment we die. So, does this mean Paul wasn’t teaching that believers are consciously with Christ after death? Let’s take a closer look.
First, while 2 Corinthians 5:8 doesn’t explicitly say there’s no gap between being away from the body and being at home with the Lord, it strongly implies it. Paul clearly desires to leave this earthly body to be “at home” with the Lord, which suggests that he sees this as the next stage after death. There’s no indication in the text that he expects a period of unconsciousness or soul sleep.
But to understand this fully, we have to look at all of Scripture. For example, in Philippians 1:23, Paul says, “I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.” Again, there’s no mention of a delay or a state of unconsciousness. Paul’s expectation is clear: when he departs this life, he will immediately be with Christ.
Then there’s Luke 23:43, where Jesus tells the thief on the cross, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Jesus didn’t say, “Someday, after a long unconscious sleep, you’ll be with me.” He said, “today.” That’s a powerful affirmation of the conscious presence of the soul after death.
Even the Old Testament aligns with this understanding. In 1 Samuel 28, Samuel’s spirit appears to Saul, clearly aware of his surroundings and current events. This wouldn’t make sense if Samuel had been in a state of unconscious soul sleep.
So yes, while 2 Corinthians 5:8 doesn’t spell it all out, when we take it in context with the rest of Scripture, it’s consistent with the teaching that believers are immediately with the Lord after death. The paraphrase-“to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”-may not be the exact wording, but it reflects the biblical truth that our hope as believers is to be consciously in Christ’s presence when we leave this life.
At the end of the day, Scripture gives us confidence in what happens after death. While we might not have all the details, we can trust that the moment we leave this broken, earthly body, we will experience the joy of being with Christ.
This has been a tricky subject for me and I would think anyone who delves into it. It seems like death is generally and mostly referred to as non-consciousness in the Bible but there are passages here and there that may imply otherwise. Also we should take into consideration the seeming belief in afterlife that we find in ancient texts and culture around their time. But 🤷🏾♂️.
Just my opinion but God doesn’t have a section of scripture dedicated to this topic or making sure it’s explained clearly (except maybe Ecclesiastes 👀 which a lot of people tend to ignore or twist to fit their own theology 🤷🏾♂️) meaning that it doesn’t have to be such a big deal for us.
While it does seem that death is sleep in the Bible, perhaps there is or can be some form of consciousness as well or being awakened from that sleep to consciousness for awhile (Saul and the witch of Endor).
What we DO know for sure is that
A) No matter what death is resurrection is the cure
B) No one is immortal right now but God, Jesus and perhaps the Angels that remained Holy. We will only be beings that can live forever at the resurrection.
C) No one goes to “Hell” or “Heaven” at death. This is simply found nowhere in the Bible and only found in tradition and pop-culture (and some NDE’s I must admit, which is interesting). All go to the grave, in Hebrew “Sheol”, and in Greek “Hades”. (Now at the resurrection and judgement then people are seemingly either going to “Hell” or a paradised Earth)
D) The majority of texts that speak of death speak of it as the end of consciousness and, imo, of the reversal of what God did in the creation. (He turned an inanimate object (dust) to an animate thinking one, meanwhile death sees the living thinking animate object return to being just dust, just inanimate matter again.) But a minority may suggest that consciousness exists after death before the resurrection.
🤷🏾♂️. Would love informed, knowledgeable, intelligent, and thoughtful feedback. Let me know if I’m incorrect about anything.
Edit: @cutechonkies and @heissavior thank you for your amazing responses. All the responses from everyone has reminded me to stay as humble and honest as possible and just say "I don't know" whenever applicable. I don't know what the state of the dead is like in the Bible, I'm only making an educated guess as best I can. Regardless, we all wait resurrection day. And whatever the 2nd death is, God will be praised and shown to know what he is doing in handling humanity and sin.
You are correct. If the bible is your primary teacher, then those are the conclusions you will reach. Many Christians however have acquired their teaching primarily from men, and have read the bible in light of what they have been taught by men; so they will likely not come to the same conclusions.
Keep seeking the knowledge of the Truth from the Word of God and you will find it. Peace brother.
What about the lake of fire? Or when Jesus talks about the place where there will be gnashing and grinding of teeth? I heard Dr Heiser saying that the eternally rising smoke may simply be smoke and not an entity suffering.That makes sense to me. I have this idea that any true hell is reserved for the unredeemable wicked, like the fallen angels. Yes, a tricky topic
@@stompthedragon4010 good question. So the term “lake of fire” is only found in Revelation. It may be referring to “Gehenna” Jesus spoke of where their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I’m not 100% clear whether or not Gehenna or the Lake are symbolic or real places of fire/destruction, but I think the New Testament paints it as real. A real place of potentially fiery destruction, not torture forever, but a ceasing of life forever. The smoke of their torment that rises forever is again only found in Revelation. But even then the subject of eternalness is the smoke not the creatures in the fire, not to mention there is such a thing as HYPERBOLE, a literary method God CERTAINLY uses. I would think it means that their destruction will be permanent. Much like how Jude (or Peter?) say that Sodom and Gomorrah were hit with “eternal” fire, speaking of the Gehenna/Age fire. But clearly there is no fire raging where their cities used to be since 4000BC or whatever, hyperbole indicating that their destruction was sure, permanent and unstoppable.
I cannot say that the New Testament supports the idea that only few go to Gehenna. It’s the opposite, that most will.
It would be great if everybody is eventually saved somehow or if Hell isn’t permanent, but I think the majority of texts don’t support that. (I am thinking of one parable where Jesus talks about the man sentenced to jail for being taken to court over calling his brother hateful demeaning words. He says the man will be in jail till every penny is paid. Does this indicate that Hell is temporary? maybe, maybe not)
However do your own reading, study and prayer
Edit: Reread chapter 14 of Revelation. I did forget that it says that those who follow the beast receive no rest day and night and the smoke of torment also applies to human sinners. I still lean on annihilationism and that Revelation isn’t meant to be taken literally in a lot of respects but I wanted to correct myself on saying these things only applied to the beast, false prophet and Satan
Also rereading chapter 20 it says that the Satan the Beast and the false prophet are tormented day and night. I remembered Revelation very incorrectly.
@@Paul_Krichbaum Thank you. You too.
@@youngknowledgeseeker that makes alot of sense.
what st paul said about 'absent from the body,' must be read in context with the rest of his letters. he said not to be hopeless about the dead, not because they went to heaven, but because of the resurrection, the blessed hope. so, these two texts seem to contradict each other. but if we use the resurrection as the ruling principle, then 'being with Lord' can only have two possible meanings: the eschatological hope and/or the underworldly setting apart of the dead in Christ.
Ah…the good ole days, when we could gather together, sit side-by-side and share a microphone
Enoch was taken up to God and King David said he will see his child again and be in the presence of God to name a couple offhand without looking up any information.
Enoch did not die, though. He was translated. (Heb 11:5) As for David, he had the same promise of the resurrection as Abraham and the other patriarchs (Heb 11:5, Job 19:26). But he certainly is not in heaven, not even after Christ's resurrection.
Acts 2:29-35“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
“For DAVID DID NOT ASCEND INTO THE HEAVENS, but he says himself:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
@@deliberativedisciple Wait, did I just read your comment correctly? Are you saying that David DIDN'T go to heaven? Are you saying that David ISN'T in heaven right now, as we speak?!
@@DerrickthePinecone Of course he's not. It's precisely what Scripture says. You seem shocked. Am I missing some sarcasm or something?
Thank God, Abraham believed in the resurrection!
One question though, why do you say it's metaphorical?
Shouldn't we as Christians believe literally what the Bible says. Sheol. Didn't Christ himself go to Sheol? To free the souls and take his people to paradise with him. Right?
No…you will not find one verse that supports that…if your referring to the verse in Peter, whose meaning is a highly debated subject in the first place, it seems to say that Jesus went to whatever spirits were in prison, possibly the Watchers of Enoch and Genesis 6, AFTER he was resurrected, not in death. “being made alive in the spirit BY WHICH he went to the spirits in prison…”. It also never says he frees them.
If there is a verse your referring to that I’m not aware of please correct me.
@@youngknowledgeseeker -> You're correct. Those spirits in prison are the "Watchers" that Yahuwah imprisoned until the last great day. 1 Enoch goes into detail also.
@@youngknowledgeseeker What about the thief on the Cross, Who Jesus referred to him to be in Paradise with Him. Luke 23:43
@@JW-rn5ee this is what I always thought. But according to dr. Heiser it is incorrect. the imprisoned souls are the Souls of the Nephilim and Watchers. Jesus did not preach to them to free them because they are still there. His preaching was more like declaring his victory and explaining to them that while they were stuck there he was not
One should NEVER say we take the Bible LITERALLY. We should say that we take the Bible seriously.
Literal is a word that refers to the literary device being used. There are many common literary devices being used by the biblical writer for example metaphor or story or song or poetry.
Do you take the verse, the Lord is my shepherd literally? No, taking it literally would mean the Lord is actually a man on Earth with a wooden rod who spends all day walking you around a grassy pasture tending to livestock animals like sheep. This verse is a metaphor and it is meant to be understood metaphorically.
Sometimes it challenge in interpreting the Bible requires the reader to understand first what literary device the writer is using. Most of the time it is obvious whether the writer is using a metaphor or a song or is being a literal. Sometimes it's less clear.
Take Genesis. Whether you believe that Genesis should mean the world was created in 7 24-hour period or whether the whole thing is more of a metaphor and not a scientific description should be based on whether you think the writer was intending to be literal or whether they were tending to be more figurative. Given that the first chapter of Genesis is written as a hymn and not a literal scientific description, I think there is some leeway in how you interpret it. But that's just one example
2 Cor 5:8 ... and we would rather be away from the body, and at home with the Lord.
Paul does not say "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
Paul in context is longing to be with the Lord.
Now read John 14:2-3
Jesus describes many rooms in his fathers house. He describes he is preparing a place. He describes when he will come again, and take us there. The place he is preparing.
It was mystery to them back then. But now through Christ the mystery's revealed via God's gift to the body the church the people God none other than (Dr Heiser) 😊🙏
Martha responds to Jesus about Lazarus saying knows of the resurrection. 1Corinthians says Resurrection is a basic doctrine. The focus seems to be that.
What about verses like John 6 : 39-40, Messiah said : This is the desire of the Father who sent Me, that all He has given Me I should not lose of it, but should raise it in the last day.
40“And this is the desire of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him should possess everlasting life. And I shall raise him up in the last day.”
*That refers to what Paul speaks of regarding the resurrection of the dead preceding those who are raptured. The Last day refers to the Day of the Lord which is a season which begins with His pouring out wrath on the ungodly, serving an indictment on the earth, the Resurrection of the dead and the Rapture of the saints where they receive physical glorified bodies like Christ has. It is not a 24 hr period.*
Here is another verse along those same lines, Caroline. _Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day._ (John 11: 24, KJV)
There are a lot of people on here who are either not reading the Bible or do not know how to rightly divide the word there is before Jesus ascended and after Jesus ascended which makes all the difference in this discussion
*"[T]here is before Jesus ascended and after Jesus ascended[,] which makes all the difference in this discussion."* What is the difference, as you see it, Landy?
I will answer my own question, Landy. Before/After makes no difference. The dead before were 100%, all-the-way dead. The dead after are 100%, all-the-way dead.
I have found that the words recited by many of Paul are the MOST misquoted scripture amongst many. Paul didn't say, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." However, he did say, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8)...
In context of the passage it details his meaning, "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)" (2 Corinthians 5:1-7)
Paul clearly says that we are longing to put off this earthly house (body), desiring to be clothed upon with our house (body) which from heaven. Verse 6 blows this idea into greater emphasis by saying, "whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord." Paul doesn't want us to be comfortable in these earthly bodies, not when Christ is going to give us a new body fashioned like unto His glorious body (Philippians 3:21).
If we die our next conscious thought, for those who are saved in Christ Jesus, will be us present with the Lord in their house (body) from heaven at the Lord's coming. Thus, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." He is simply saying he'd rather be absent from this sinful state of living in a body that is prone to decay and death, because he knows his next house/state of being will be an eternal one standing present with the Lord.
Luke 16 : 23
And the rich man in hell lifted up his eyes being in torment and sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom....
There was a separation between those who loved GOD and those who didn't....GOD preserves those who are HIS ...
Old Testament notwithstanding, the New Testament teaches that no one was ever resurrected before Jesus. This means that those who "slept" (as Paul put it) were resurrected AFTER Jesus was resurrected which made it possible for them to live again. 1Corinthians 15 is the resurrection chapter and explained all of this.
Both the wicked and righteous are at rest in sheol until the resurrection
Wrong 😑
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Michael, do I remember you mentioning you have cancer? Have you considered Fenbendazole? Might be worth a look!
Enoch 22 and Luke 16 describes Sheol. So does Jubilees and 2 Ezra.
Question? There seem to be parallels between the greek myth regarding Hades/Elysian Fields and the underworld and Abraham's Bosom. Could it be that they are one in the same? That's what I have believed for several years now.
Me too, especially if you believe in Christs descent into Hades/Sheol to "exodus" the captives there before his Resurrection. Also the reason Egyptians may have been more optimistic might have been, as I've heard, that they believed in a general resurrection at the end of the world. Was hoping Dr. Heiser was addressing this.
@@Jim-Mc *The idea of baptisms and resurrections have always been correlated. The idea of the Resurrection pre-dates the Torah and it pre-dates Christology. The harvesting of souls is as old as writing. Christianity didn't invent the concept of the Resurrection. Christ presented an alternative to what was to happen post resurrection, to escape judgement.*
The Greek mythos takes the reality and fashions it into other stories....
such as the case of the angels who sinned against God and are now bound in chains in Tartarus, being fashioned into the story of the Titans (sons and daughters of the gods) who rebelled and made war with the gods....and then thrown into Tartarus, traditionally understood as the lowest level of Hades.
Was Sheol automatic torture?because if so would all old testament saints suffer?
Dr Michael heiser's view is 100% right. Read Psalm 72 and look at Asaph's theology on a positive afterlife.
Has anyone considered Jesus’ description of Sheol inthe story of Lazarus and the rich man? Luke 16:22-26…
What is the name for this belief about death and dying: When we die our spirit (the thing that gives us life or animates us) goes back to God who supplied it, our soul (personality, emotions, memories, and unique proclivities) ceases to exist, and the body goes in the grave/decomposes. No one who is dead right now or has ever dies is in heaven or suffering in burning fire. They are just dead. On the Last Day God will physically resurrect everyone in order to judge them. Those who don't know Christ will experience the Second Death where they will be burned to oblivion. Those who do know Christ will live forever in the New Heaven and New Earth. What is the name of this belief?
Hi. I just became a Christian but I still have some unanswered questions. Dr. Michael Heiser is a huge help. When I asked in a Christian Chat why God allows human suffering, the answers I got was that he lets people suffer because they did bad things and don't keep the mosaic laws. Can someone answer that or is this answer right? That would be helpful.
@The Legendary One
I am so thrilled and Jesus is too! He died for you too. You are loved.
I am going to try and answer you the best I can.
God gave us a free will, therefore He will never force us do not to do or to do things that we should or shouldn't.
However when you surrender willingly, the Holy Spirit will guide you away from self-destruction towards holynes. ( That soft quiet voice inside you) It is a lifetime journey
God wants you to love Him with all your heart, all your soul and all your might (All your power, soul and mind) - Detronomy 6:5
And you neighbour including your enemies, like yourself.
Make time to seek the presence of our Almighty God: Father (YHVH) in the name of Jesus (Yeshua haMeshiac) through the Holy Spirit Ruach haCodesh). Jesus gave us a wonderful prayer
Matthew 6:9 to 13
Please read it and make it your own. It is a frame for all other prayers.
Verse 9
We acknowledge the Holynes of God's name
Verse 10
We want His Kingdom to come on earth (also in our hearts) as it is in heaven (holy and untainted)
Verse 11
We ask for His provisions
Verse 12
We ask for forgiveness is our sins.
Confess your sins, all of them.
He already knows everything.
Forgive everyone that sinned against you.
This sets you free from the burden of bitterness, hatred and remorse. Also forgive yourself.
Verse 13
a)We ask God to help us to resist temptation. (We will then be able to recognize temptation beforehand and resist)
b)We ask to be delivered from evil.
c) We acknowledge that power and the glory and everything belong to God. - He is in control!
Verse 14
Jesus tells us we have to forgive to be forgiven.
I wish I could talk to you face to face. I have failed Him several times, my entire life.
He never gives up when we surrender.
Seeking God is a lifetime journey.
By reading the scriptures we receive understanding and wisdom and the gifts of the Spirit. Love Hope Faith (1 Corinthians 13) and many other spiritual gifts. Healing the sick, prophecy, etc. Some receive all and some only one. (See the parable of the talents)
If you don't understand certain passages, ask the Holy Spirit and read again.
Just be warned the nations have done abbomable things - we are not to judge. Judgement and wrath belong to God.
Jesus explains that if we don't forgive, we won't be forgiven.
Read the entyre Bible.
Start with the New Testament.
Read the Old Testament in between.
My prayer for is that you will experience the Love of Christ in all it's fullness and that you will grow in knowledge, understanding, wisdom and peace that surpasses all human understanding.
God will not leave me in the grave. Hebrews believe in the resurrection not a land of gathering souls. Remember Martha speaking to Christ about the resurrection?
I think in the Old Testament, when Moses or other prominent figures died, it says they were taken to their fathers
I did quite a bit of readings about the intermediate state. Hope this can help in contributing to the discussion somewhat. Others feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken (: Generally there seems to be 3 views regarding the intermediate state. Unlike the final state of humankind (post resurrection) which is talked about explicitly in scripture, unfortunately, there isn’t really any clear cut teaching about what happens during the intermediate state.
1) a conscious intermediate state, in heaven for believers and in Sheol/Hades for the wicked which is currently the predominant view in Christianity. For the latter, most views involve the wicked being in torment. The basis of the righteous being in heaven after death lies mainly in statements about being away from the body equates to being in the presence of the Lord. The basis of the wicked being in torment in hades comes from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
Some of my personal reflection of this. While I do feel that the argument of being away from the body equates to being in the presence of the Lord is a strong argument that believers reside in heaven after death, it might be an overstatement to state about them being conscious there. Perhaps believers might be in a state of sleep while in heaven and this can reconcile with other statements by Paul saying that the righteous are asleep. This also resolves the problem of Paul mentioning that the disembodied state is undesirable (2 Corinthians 5:3-4) ie if u are asleep, the discomfort of disembodiment will not matter
I do not really agree that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is an explicit evidence for post mortem punishment for the wicked because of the concept of divine accommodationism. Just as how God accommodates to the ancient science in Genesis in revealing revelation, this parable could be Jesus using common afterlife beliefs in the second temple period to teach other lessons without necessarily affirming the view point.
A nagging doubt I have about this doctrinal standpoint is that a blissful/ torment intermediate state downplays the significance of the resurrection and the last judgment of the righteous and the wicked. It seems that scripture consistently emphasises on the post resurrection state of the righteous as their reward rather than post mortem heaven. The idea of one suffering in the intermediate state also raises issues of fairness of punishment before judgment. It could mean that someone who died in 1230 and is suffering in Hades will end up suffering more than someone who died in 1780. This in particular is problematic for annihilationists as the idea of proportionate punishment is one of the key arguments for the teaching.
There are also few Christians who believe in post mortem salvation opportunities in hades as well, claiming that the point of Hebrews 9:27 is not to deny post modern salvation but it’s to make a comparison with Jesus death bringing salvation instead of judgment coming to man.
2) soul sleep/soul death. I distinguish between these 2 as I view the former as one being in a state of unconsciousness/semi consciousness in hades while the latter often involves a monist anthropology which denies an immaterial soul. Sometimes the latter involves the belief the soul dies with the body at death. Either way, the intermediate state in a phase of unconsciousness. The strength of this view for me lies in the OT. The many verses in the OT speaking about inactivity and lack of cognitive thought serve as quite clear evidence that the intermediate state is thought of as unconscious. A significant verse that do affirms this views also is Job 21:13 where it is described that the wicked go to Sheol in peace, not in torment. Job 3:17 also mentions the wicked cease from turmoil in Sheol. Also as mentioned in the preceding point, the emphasis of the significance of the resurrection and last judgment is also another strength for this position. One theologian also wrote that Jesus parables about the final judgment reflect surprise amongst the wicked for their fate eg Matthew 7:23 as indication that they were unconscious in hades and did not expect them to be rejected by God post resurrection
I do not necessarily agree that with Heiser that the presence of offerings to the dead deny the existence of the belief of soul sleep in ancient Israel thought. Note that the Sadducees also denied the existence of an afterlife. At most the practice of offerings to the dead suggests that there were Israelites who believed the dead were conscious in Sheol, which might come from their pagan neighbours.
That being said, personally I feel the OT is not an ultimatum to teaching soul sleep. Again with the principle of divine accommodation, it is quite clear that when Sheol is being mentioned in the OT, it is not the authors main intention to teach theology about the intermediate state. God could have used existing afterlife beliefs without affirming them as a vehicle to convey inerrant theological truths just as how genesis science was used to convey inerrant theological truths.
Lastly, I need to mention that there are Christian’s who believe that in the NT, while the righteous goes to heaven, the wicked lie in soul sleep in their attempts to form their systematic theology.
3) this view is quite uncommon but this view denies the existence of the intermediate state altogether. It has a view that the final judgment occurs outside of time and when one dies, he or she is transported to the final judgment. Personally I feel this view is quite problematic cos Paul seems to write the time of judgment and resurrection as some time in the future and not after death. Also, it raises problems of ppl being raised from the dead like Lazarus being dead for a few days. It’s quite unthinkable for Lazarus to be transported to the time of resurrection only to be brought back to real time again
In regard to one suffering in torment for hundreds of years more or less than the other, i believe that in this spiritual realm, the concept of earthly time does not apply, only what God determines as the proper "age" for His justice to take place.
Annihilation comes at the Lake of fire judgment at the Great White Throne, where even death itself and Hades will be utterly destroyed.
The guilty will suffer their due punishment before the destruction of both body AND soul in the fiery lake.
@@daseguin correct me if I’m wrong but based on your understanding, the due punishment of an individual occurs in Hades and then annihilation occurs in the Lake of fire? However, Jesus statements of judgment seems to suggest that the varying levels of torment received by the wicked occurs on judgment day in the lake of fire as suggested in Matthew11:22. It seems to me that both different levels of punishment and annihilation occurs in the lake of fire rather than in hades
@@CuteChonkies
He is referencing Tyre and Sidon as corporate entities there, and while the judgment is literal, He is simply emphasizing that their guilt is far less corporately than that of those who were actually supposed to be representing the True God before the nations.
In the end, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, and those who rejected Him in the hour of His visitation will indeed be put to severe shame.
@@daseguin yes I agree that verse is referencing corporate entities. However, these corporate entities are made up of individuals and it was the unrepentant attitudes of the citizens that led to a pronouncement of the judgment on their nations. Ultimately, when these nations are being judged, the individuals who make up these nations will be punished as well on judgment day with varying levels of suffering
@@CuteChonkies
Yes, as was stated, that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.
These will be thrown into the Lake of Fire in complete shame.
Reading some of the comments and I find it interesting that the Christian tradition calls it resurrection, when it seems to be reincarnation. Paul points out later (or before, depending on your view) "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." It would seem Christ was never resurrected, he was reincarnated, as he received a new body. This explains the post death appearances where he could not be recognized and was alive despite having wounds (that Thomas touched) that would have killed him, he was in an 'incorruptible' state. This state, from the story, makes it seem like Christ was able to change his appearance and was immune to death. Per Paul, this was not a 'flesh and blood' body as we think of it, though it was material at times.
It is refreshing to read a post where the writer took pains to get the spelling, grammar, sentence structure, case, etc. correct. The content was well thought out and presented, too. Thank you for sharing with us, John.
Isn't reincarnation a recycling of life, as in people come back as another form of life until they get it right and reach nirvana? Jesus Christ didn't come back as another life form. He was resurrected, the same person, in a glorified body. Nowhere in Christian doctrine does reincarnation exist.
@@winniecash1654 I’m glad you asked and thank you for your response. Reincarnation has many forms, one being an embodiment in a new form, especially the reappearance of a person in another form, which appears to be what the texts point to. Another is obtaining a new, considerably improved, body, which also falls in line with the texts.
I am aware of the doctrine many Christians hold, but it would seem that it is not actually the case. A glorified body is indeed a different body, not flesh and blood, per Paul.
I would ask this, do you think Jesus could die again? If not, then the body he received was very much different.
@@Προμηθεύς-β1β well, since I've read the Bible through many times in my life, I want to let you know that nowhere does it speak of reincarnation. Reincarnation is a thought from somewhere else. It is unbiblical. I just want you to be sure of this, lest you think it has any place in Judeo-Christian belief.
@@winniecash1654 I hope you had a good New Years!
I find it interesting that you would say that it is unbiblical after pointing out information, from the Bible, that seems to show just that and not providing any evidence to the contrary. As pointed out, there are many ideas of reincarnation, not just the eastern mainstream ones. The ancient near east was full of trade, people telling each other stories and sharing ideas. The Bible is also evidence of that.
I have also read the Bible many times as I was brought up Christian, by a very religious family, that doesn’t give a viewpoint more veracity. It is however, one of my favorite collections of ancient literature, but I do prefer the original languages.
I also find it interesting that you claim that there is no place for reincarnation in Judeo-Christian belief. Surely you know this is your opinion and not fact. A Pew research poll from 2018 shows that 29% of US Christians believe in reincarnation, so your claim is certainly nothing to be sure of. What is sure, is that there are many different thoughts on the subject and that is ok.
Was Jesus resurrected? I think to make it so would take a case of special pleading, but Christian dogma has sculpted many peoples views on what the word means. Transmigration might be the better term, but even if resurrection is settled on, it still does not mean the same mortal body as the texts clearly state that was not the case. If it did, then clearly Jesus could die again and I don’t think anyone would say that is the case.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 ESV
[20] But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [21] For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. [23] But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
Old Testament saints.
Hebrews 11:39-40 ESV
[39] And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, [40] since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
I do not think the Old Testament verse can answer the question. Because even the religious leader of out Lord’s day were uncertain regarding this matter. So it would be wise to defer to the New Testament scriptures.
Acts 23:6-8 KJVS
[6] But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. [7] And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided. [8] For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write his epistles and John, who lacked a formal education compatible to Paul was inspired to write this.
Revelation 6:9-11 KJVS
[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
2 Peter 1:19-21 KJVS
[19] We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. [21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
It seems to me that theologians like to infer that those that wrote the Bible to some small or large degree did it under their own inspiration. Which is not the case. You have to have the Spirit of God to understand the deep things of God.
1 Corinthians 2:9-16 KJVS
[9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. [10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. [11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. [13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. [16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Afterlife in OT? in NT? Nope; let Christ answer that himself: "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know." Only until Christ returns. That's why Christ called death "sleep" in the grave.
Your post is a breath of fresh air, Greg. Thank you for interjecting a note of sanity in this thread.
Makes me think 🤔 about Lazarus and the rich man?
No, Paul did not say _"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."_ Heiser here quotes 2 Corinthians 5: 8 incorrectly and out of context. By so doing he turns Paul's message on its ear. Anyone who takes the time to read verse four will immediately see that Paul is _not_ talking about dying and going to heaven.
THANK YOU!!!!!
Right on 👍
We are born spiritually dead via Adam. Thats why we must be born from above. When a believer dies they immediately rise cuz they can no longer die. The lost are dead until the judgement then they receive thier penalty based on thier deeds. The soul is simply the breath of God that gives us bodily life. In believers that soul is transformed along when they are born again. In a sinner, the breath never returns.
I believe in Soul Sleep in Sheol. I think scripture is pretty firm on it, so I can see why Heiser's views were minority in this. In fact I don't even think people are in Heaven right now, not even the Apostles, but this I believe happens when Christ returns to Earth physically to establish a Kingdom upon it, and the faithful "wake up" to resurrect. And it's my position that this was also the view of Paul in his letters.
People often mistake the spirit and the soul to be the same thing, but scripture actually defines them both as separate things. The soul is the person, the consciousness, whilst the spirit is the "breath of life". Hence, the soul appears to sleep, whilst the spirit (breath, the "lifeforce") returns to God (ie; it's in his hands, your life is in his hands). To live, the soul, spirit and body have to be unified as one. And this is what the resurrection of eternal life promises us in the NT, to stand up from the grave, to "receive new bodies", mortality putting on immortality.
I think that the hope the righteous had in the OT of "Not being left in Sheol" as expressed in the Psalms, were expressions of the "hope" they had, knowing God would not leave them eternally to sleep, but that salvation was coming.
It wouldn't surprise me that Israelites would bury objects with the dead. It could have been a memento, another possibility is that the Israelites may have wanted to them "physically resurrect out the grave" with these cherished items in hand. Cremating was seen as sacrilege for this very reason, as they wanted to preserve the bones for the bodies to be able to stand up again in the future.
Of course, if it really was because they believed the objects would go with them to another life, then it would, I think, have been the belief of the "individual". As we shouldn't forget, the Israelites often were guilty of interfaith and adopting beliefs that were not "kosher" throughout history, against what was written in the Torah. Some Israelites homes had idols in them of false gods, but we wouldn't use this to say it was therefore "scripturally accurate" or approved of God to worship idols.
Correct. The serpent's claim all the way back to the fall was that they would not die. That was so effective that he uses it to this very day.
Thank you
That sounds more like pagan burials, not Judaic burials. And Paul spoke after Jesus’s Harrowing of Hell.
2:35
Interesting.
Dr. Heiser is wrong when he says God is up there not down there.
God is omnipresent e.g.
Psalm 139:8 : 8 > If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Where is hell, or Lake of fire or bottomless pit or abyss ? Only thing we are told is the following - Luke 16:23 >
And in Hell he (the rich man who died) lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus (the poor beggar who died) in his bosom.
Luke 16:26 > And beside all this, between us (Abraham and those in Paradise) and you (rich man who died along with unbelievers who died) there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 >
Then shall the dust (Man was made of the dust of the Earth) return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Revelation 20:4 > And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and "reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Job 14:12-14 > So man lieth down, and "riseth not: till the heavens be no more", they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest "hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past", that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, "till my change come."
1 Corinthians 15:52-54 > In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and "we shall be changed". For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 15:26-28 >
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is Death.
For HE hath put all things under His feet. But when HE saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that HE is excepted, which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto HIM that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Revelation 21:1-3 > And I saw a New Heaven and a New Earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; ... And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, ... And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and HE will dwell with them, and they shall be HIS people, and God HIMSELF shall be with them, and be their God.
It's only at the end of Christ's thousand year reign that culminates in the gathering of all Believers.
That's when gather all things in Heaven and all things on Earth to fulfill the prophecy below-
2 Thessalonians 1:7- 10 >
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power; When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
On completion of Christ's thousand year reign on the kingdom of heaven on Earth, He goes back to the Father after completing the mission that was entrusted to Him by the Father.
Ephesians 1:10 > That in the dispensation of the fulness of times (end of Millenium) HE (Heavenly Father) might gather together in one "all things" in Christ, both which are in Heaven, and which are on Earth; even in Him:
Question - Isn't Job's Redeemer the same One who is also our Redeemer? But Job's expectation about the coming of the Redeemer is only when the Heaven and Earth passes away; that's only at the end of time i.e. close of thousand year reign of Christ.
The reality according to the Word of God for the future is a 2nd coming to establish His kingdom of heaven on Earth after the fulfilment of the prophecies of Exekiel 36 & 37 made to only Jews & Israel of Old Testament times.
And a final gathering of all Believers at the end of His thousand year reign to fulfill the prophecies of Ephesians 1:10 and 2 Thessalonians 1:10.
God is triune (not a trinity).
1 John 5:7 > For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE.
So all that we can summarise is that (i) there is a barrier between Hell & Paradise, (ii) Paradise is different from the 3rd Heaven (where God is worshipped by the Holy Heavenly assembly, (iii) the final abode of all Believers will be on the New Earth and The Triune God will dwell with them for eternity.
Shalom
jesus belived in soul sleep just read about the person he resurected.
Vean también este video con Subtítulos en Español en nuestro canal de habla hispana
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How are you doing Mike? I hope you are in good health, we need you on this planet right now, the Church in America is very uneducated.
Muchas gracias y muito obrigado
Dear Dr. Michael this
.... It is a Surats from the Qur’an that talks about the Day of Resurrection and the torment
th-cam.com/video/azSI004kOgU/w-d-xo.html
_And their dead bodies will lie on the street of _*_THE GREAT CITY_*_ which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified._ (Rev 11.8).
_The woman [Babylon per 17.5] whom you saw is _*_THE GREAT CITY_*_ which reigns over the kings of the earth._ (Rev 17.18).
_”And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth/land.”_ (Rev 18.24)
_”Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!”_ (Mat 23.37)
Mr. professor you forgot Daniel vision that says knowledge will increase. and that mean knowledge among Israel in that time not even can be compare with modern biblical time. how do you assume what they do is all right?
they even cannot identify Jesus as messiah. how do you think if they have similar culture with Egypt it mean it was absolute truth?
they way you thinking is totally absurd.
even Abram home town Ur is the place of the biggest ziggurat in Iraq and they worshipping seraphim not YHWH Tarah suppose have those culture to.
Jews was a race and tribe born from assimilation with Pagan they intermarriage their kids with sinner.
so you says they are clean?
even Christian today worship in Sunday instead Saturday as God commanded.
Absent from the body, present with The Lord now since the resurrection, why are we still debating this. Jesus even said about the rich man and Lazarus, both were conscious and aware of their environment. Either the bible is true or we can all pack up and forget about it. when Jesus was on the cross he told the thief you will be with me in paradise today. And it also says Jesus preached to the dead before he led the believers up to be with Father God and led the enemies in derision as captives. maybe I just don't get the questions others have ?
I might put something in my parents casket, with them, when they die... But it's not cause I think they're gonna use 'it' in the afterlife. I don't agree at all with this interpretation of prior generations doing this for any reason other than emotional, sentimentality.
Or idolatry.
@@JW-rn5ee really? Burying mom in her favorite dress, or dad in his old military uniform is idolatry?.... 👎 No, that's silly.
*Hes just telling you what the Egyptians thought as an example. Hes not presenting it as doctrine.*
@@Theggman83 bruh I J W didnt mean what you did was idolatry. just what others would do such acts
@@diollinebranderson6553 that was my whole point, if we aren't burying loved ones with anything more than nostalgia and sentimentality than how can we declare that idolatry is the reason ancient people did the same thing?
The dead are dead until the resurrection.
You have studied this in depth and can with certainty give me references that prove it? Even though theologians argue about it because it’s not clear? Jesus said to the thief on the cross next to him “ today you will be with me in paradise “. I don’t think the Bible is clear nor are the scholars that study it.
3:25 assumption , in the case of Israel..... Or it's because Israelites decided to incorporate pagan practices.
3:45 ..... In the pagan Nations, correct. That was their viewpoint.
Ecclesiastes says that the spirit returns to the Father who gave it, Ezekiel 18:4 says that the soul perishes, they are not the same soul and spirit are not interchangeable. They are never the same word in the original biblical languages, but ecclesiastes also makes a simple, clear and direct statement at the fate of men and animals is the same and that the dead are conscious of nothing at all. But the theme is that there is a future hope for those who have died through the resurrection power which was not only demonstrated by Elisha or Elijah in the Old testament can never keep them straight but also demonstrated in the New testament.
The dead, know, and do, nothing. They are simply dead. A dead person, is a dead soul (life). The spirit, is simply God's knowledge of who, and where you are. When you are resurrected to judgement, you are eligible to BECOME A SPIRIT.
Paul doesn't say to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. He said RATHER WILLING to be present with the Lord. If You're dead, you're NOT absent from your body.
*"Paul doesn't say to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. He said RATHER WILLING to be present with the Lord."_ YES! YES! YES! And in verse four Paul makes it plain that he is NOT talking about some disembodied part flying away at death but, rather, he is longing for Christ's second coming. I am too.
It could also be explained as a "redemptive analogy."
Wonderful
The soul and the spirit as Christians are not the same
Was he confusing soul with ruach / spirit?
Because that doesn’t answer the question, his answer just went in the loop of a a hellenised belief regarding the soul (body + breath) which is the ne’phesh or psy’khe but not the Ruach/ spirit.
The simplest answer is that the Ruach / spirit/ breath of life, goes back to The Most High🔥.
Soul needs the Ruach to be alive . Soul is body + ruach= a living body ( soul )
Ruach is as it is and the giver of life (breath of life)
@@movingon.............6850 Well said, M. O. Kudos.
RIP MIKE
He's almost got it! Great job Dr Michael Heiser. Christ even said himself that we sleep when we die. Lazarus is a great example. Christ said to the disciples Lazarus is sleeping and they replied why don't you go and wake him up and Christ replied he's dead.. this is why the Bible is clear when Christ returns "the dead in Christ shall rise first". When we die we sleep in the grave waiting for the Lord's return.. there is no one burning in Hellfire at the moment because that's reserved for judgment and judgment has not yet taken place.. there's also no one in heaven except the only evidence in the Bible is that Christ ascended. As for everyone else we sleep in the grave awaiting for the Lord's return.
Well said, Justin.
@@IsaacNussbaum thanks bro.
2 Corinthians 5:8 To be absent from the body, to be present with the Lord.
When Jesus was transfigured on the mountain Moses and Elijah was there do you think they died again??? No
Very disappointing to see/hear such a great Biblical scholar misquote and wrongly apply the verse from 2Chorinthians 5:8. The statement in the verse is not an If/Then statement.
Energy doesn't die....
The question is does the Bible teach that we HAVE. A separate soul??
JWS and others would show that it doesn’t
And it’s a convincing case
But. Does it?
It does not. Genesis 2, teaches that man is animate and thinking matter thanks to Gods incredible power and craftsmanship, and when we die we go back to being inanimate unthinking matter, like a rock or dust.
It says a body is a soul not has a soul. A soul can be dead or alive. It then says that the animating principle, the thing that gives it it’s life is spirit/breathe from God. The word spirit has different meanings depending on context but I think here it means breathe not a separate soul that is your consciousness.
Pray about it, let God give you the answers.
Man does not have a soul man is a soul
Genesis 2: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man 👉🏾became a living soul.
@@youngknowledgeseeker asking a scholar
Thanks
@@nomadicrecovery1586 lmk what they say. Hopefully I was accurate.
cant I as a mere human have the PRIVILEGE to call you dr.michael on any APP
Read the Gospel of Nicodemus!!!
It's absolutely amazing and provides many answers!
Also worth noting that the Rich Man went to Hell and Lazarus was in heaven with Abraham. This was pre resurrection.
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (John 11, KJV)
@@IsaacNussbaum not the same story.
@@graysonshaw1621 *:not the same story."* I agree. The story I referred to, however, was a real, historic account. The other is no more a historic account than is the story of the tortoise and the hare. Both of the last two are meant to teach an overarching point. The characters are not the message in either one.
@@IsaacNussbaum a. You can’t say that the rich man & Lazarus is not a true story. It is not specified as a parable.
b. Why would Jesus talk about heaven and hell before the resurrection if it wasn’t how it worked then?
@@graysonshaw1621 *You can’t say that the rich man & Lazarus is not a true story.* I can and I did. If the rich man and Lazarus were conscious following death then Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived, except for Jesus, made a big boo-boo when he wrote: __For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing...."_ (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
The rich man in torment saw Lazarus in Abraham's bosom in Paradise.
well, he's now over "there" rip
Let me begin with "Paul says "absent from the body present with the Lord" But he says it in this order, 1. There is a resurrection. 2. Present with the Lord. 3 There is a Judgment. See how it is sandwiched between two ideas? And all three of those things take place at the same time. Meaning, he is not saying "at any time you will be present with the lord" he is saying "at the resurrection you will be present with the Lord and that is when the judgment is." Just like it says in countless other passages. People use that one verse almost exclusively. Also, lets not forget that protestants were battling Catholics and their views of purgatory. That is probably why that one verse is welded out of context so much.
As for absurdities in belief about heaven... How about Jesus saying to the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in paradise" then Jesus goes to the underworld for three days and walks around earth for 40 days? Wherever paradise is, it isn't in heaven. How about there being one resurrection every time it is brought up and yet most people believe in two resurrections at minimum, unless they believe in a rapture then there are three. One being at the time of Christ's resurrection, one being at the time of the rapture and one being after the tribulation. Something doesn't add up with both what Mike thinks or what is the commonly held view. There are too many moving parts in most people's views. Why would your soul go to heaven, then your body is resurrected and then, for some nonsensical reason, we get a new body that is from heaven? Why have a resurrection at all if you and your new body are in heaven? I hope someone figures it out in a logical way because the common views make no sense. Anyways, Abrahams's bosom sounds like it was a real place in Christ's mind. And that is probably the Sheol thing.
All good questions, Investfluent. The most common belief among evangelicals today is nonsensical on its face.
1. die and go to heaven
2. come back to Earth to get a glorified body
3. return to heaven
4. come back to Earth
@@IsaacNussbaum YEAH! Thank you! It makes no sense. I believe in Jesus and I believe in an eternity with him. But heaven doesn't sound like it is on the itinerary. And even if it is, it is only for a blip in eternity. The absolute longest stint would be if there was a ressurection at the time of Christ for believers and you made it to heaven then. And you stay until Christ returns to earth. You would have been in heaven for 2000 years (provided he comes soon) That is not long nor does Christ remain in heaven in either the millennial reign or the new heaven and the new earth. So absent from the body present with the lord would be nearly exclusively on earth or the new earth. Why anyone would say you "go to heaven" as though it is a final destination is mind boggling.
This is what I've discovered: Abraham's bosom, & Jesus telling theif on the corss; 'today you will be with me in paradise'. Luke 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and [a]fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with [b]the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ” Epesians 4:8 ....When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive. These raised saints came forth with Jesus, immortalized, and later ascended with Him to heaven. It was appropriate that Christ should bring forth with Him from the grave some of the captives whom Satan that had been held in the prison house of death. These were a symbol of His triumph.