Great video, Jason. I used a cabinet saw for quite a few decades before switching to my K3 and I would never go back. Similar to you, it took me a while to get used to the different way of operating with the K3 but now that I am comfortable with it, it's fabulous. I agree 100% about the added safety of the slider both because of your body position and because of the accessories (like the Fritz and Franz) that allow you to hold the workpiece so your hands are well away from the blade. I've got the Hammer riving knife and I prefer that over the splitter that comes with the saw. One other thing you may want to look into are parallel ripping guides. They allow you to make a rip cut using the sliding table rather than the fence. I find that I get more accurate and cleaner cuts when the wood is being pushed past the blade on the sliding table compared to using the fence. Keep up the great work!!
@@chrisroberts3963 I think with the hammer you need to make them yourself. I have the felder ones (direct from felder) with my saw and they are a game changer. Perfectly straight and parallel cuts even with very large and heavy workpieces.
Thumbs up. I enjoyed this video. After more than 40 years of using traditional US table saws I bought a Felder KF700 four years ago. The learning curve was tough and I struggled to learn on my own how to properly use the saw. I’m fortunate to have a large enough shop to have both my trusty Powermatic 66 sitting next to the Felder in the reverse direction. It’s my version of Ramon’s setup. The slider is pure joy to process sheet goods. The Powermatic typically has the Oshlun Box Finger Joint blade in it. Perfect for drawer bottoms and cabinet backs. My two person shop now builds cabinets and store fixtures as fast or faster than when we were a team of five. I never want to cut melamine or crosscut plywood without a scoring blade ever again. We can’t all go to Alpine Workshop (but I would recommend it), hopefully you and few more creators will share tips and tricks to getting great results and all the benefits of a sliding table saw.
@ you are repeatedly correct about a higher grade saw. Many of your issues are better on the Felder. Room and cost of course are always the first consideration.
Hi from Germany. For two problems, I will probably have a solution. :D I have a KF700 but the fence is in some cases identical. I use a M503 Display include magnetic sensor. Once calibrated. All is absolute perfect. :) For the switches in the sliding table, i didn't buy the expensive version of felder with a complicated system. I use a 2 channel garage door opener with 433mhz to simulate the on and off button. This works great and was even cheaper that the magnetic sensor 😅
@tonyjohansson9658 No, that's easy to install, both buttons with a own relais. The green button is parallel (NO - closer contact) and the red button in a row (NC - opener contact) in my memory. If the battery is empty from the remote, the only problem is, that the new buttons don't work... :D
Fun fact, the technician of Felder means, that this is a great idea. The original installation has so many problems with the contacts over the X-Roll Table. But the german safety organisation has strict regulations, that this can't be a remote contact. The first generation in the table even was with a remote and cheaper 🙈
Interessant, ich hab die Felder k540s wo der fern Schalter keine option ist, und es stört echt öfter mit 3200 länge. Hast du irgendwelche links oder Tutorial benutzt um das einzubauen oder vom kopf selber ausgedruckt? VG
Hi Jason, you probably already realize this but in your plywood cutting scenario you can square the board then use the flip stop on the slider fence to cut to desired size. This way you are using the same reference surface. Also better cut quality and economy of motion vs having to relocate to the right side of the saw to push the piece through. Heck, if you’re ripping stuff just use the Fritz and franz jig in conjunction with the rip fence in its rearward position. The rip fence becomes a ‘bump stop’ for each consecutive cut. All work is done from the left side.
I went from a Sawstop to the Felder 500P. Totally loved using the slider but like you realized the shortcomings of the more basic Felder 500P. Sold it and went to the Felder Kappa 400 X-Motion with all digital crosscut stops and totally love using it. Expensive, yes, but it is totally satisfying to use. Overkill for a hobbyist perhaps, but man is it nice to use. My shop is 24’ x 24’ and it fits fine and I can rip a full 8’ on the slider.
I have had my k3 for over a year. I love my saw! I agree completely with your criticisms especially the on, off button. I made a parallel jig using an incra jig off of eBay. Now unless I am make a single rip I set up the incra in seconds an make perfect rips using the sliding table. It super safe and super accurate for repeat cuts or batch cuts. Fingers are never near the blade. Also kickbacks are much less likely!
Jason, this is super informative. Thank you. Pricing and space are probably the only hinderances for most of us but the in-depth functionality of jointing an edge is SUPER handy. One thing of note regarding safety: Sawstop's braking system is functionally good, but the technology is basically archaic in comparison to the Felder camera and blade drop system.
Thanks for the video, excellent as always. My thought on cabinet saws vs sliding saws comes down to what you build. If my primary products are made with sheet goods, then the sliding saw makes so much sense. However, if I am making stick built furniture with cross cut sleds, tapering jigs, or want the ability to use fence attachments of any kind (like sacrificial fences or vertical feather boards ) I would choose the cabinet saw. Depends on what you build.
Great video! I’ve got the Grizzly 5’ slider and it has been a game changer. The MFT got sold shortly after but I did keep my Sawstop for dados and ripping. One of the best features of a slider is the scoring blade which will allow you to work with melamines and laminates. I only wish I had gotten an 8’ slider.
Definitely a learning curve when you're completely changing your approach to the work. An overarm guard that's not connected to the saw might work for you. I see the dust collection above the work to be more of a benefit than it being a guard.
Outstanding overview. I moved up to the Grizzly slider - that's all the budget could eat at the moment. You hit on all the reasons i went for it. I also have the space to keep a normal cabinet saw set up with a dado stack - i found chnging out the slder was a pain. I kept my safty cover/ dust collection connected to keep some of the dust out of my face. If i were to add anything , i wish the slider i have could handle a full sheet length on the slider. I am not a production shop, so i have work aournds to deal with that when it comes up. I am with others - not sure how i ever got along without the slider. Take care.
Because of you I bought a K3. Love, love, love it! At the same time I bought the pricy Festool miter saw. I never use it 🤦♂️. The K3 really illuminates the need for it.
This was an interesting perspective. I've always thought they took up too much space, but after watching this, I realize it's only because I've been looking at as needing 36 or more inches to the right of the blade, rather than doing most of the cutting on the left. I'll never likely ever have one, but the way you laid out your journey with it was very enlightening. I'd still keep my miter saw though. 😀
What I try to communicate to people is that you still have to have space open around a cabinet saw, it just isn’t something you see like a big slider hanging off or an outrigger. Thats what people have a hard time grasping
Used a Ulma sliding table saw while I was stationed in Germany. Absolutely loved it, best saw I have ever used. I have a Delta Unisaw and been thinking of adding a slider, not the same but a lot less expensive of a new saw 😅
I got one a little bit before you. I may make a video in sort of a reply to this video largely talking about space, safety and how it saves money by reducing amount of tools (eg miter saws are now pointless as you mentioned). Anyway, 100% agree that this tool is way better than a cabinet saw and I’m so glad I didn’t end up with a sawstop.
I've always held to the opinion that a slider is superior to a traditional cabinet saw, both in terms of utility and safety. You've done an excellent job of explaining the benefits.
Yeah totally agree. A cabinet saw is only better for really small parts in my experience. A crosscut sled on a cabinet saw I find easier for that. And with blade guard and dust extraction from the top (on the larger models) it's even safer. You can put that thing real low so you can't even reach the blade with your hand. And your lungs will thank you too
I made the switch from traditional cabinet saw to a 5 function minimax format style combo machine in 2002. Never looked back. The fence is the weakest part, but it is very easy to overcome, and if one really wanted a Beisemyer fence could be modified to work. But the more you learn the capabilities of the slider, the less you use the rip fence anyway. Example, I would never use the rip fence for the cut you made at the 29 minute mark. Slider all the way for that cut too.
I had a K3 basic years ago and sold it when I needed the space in my garage. We have moved to a new property that will have lots of room to build a shop. Once I have that done, it's a Felder K500 with the outrigger will be in the shop. Once you go slider, you never look back.
Good video. My dad was a cabinet maker, I grew up with a Altendorf F45 sliding table saw in the garage which I learned to use as a teenage. Great saw, I've been completely spoiled by it over the years! Sadly my dad recently passed away and I've got that table saw up for sale now. Going to be so hard to let it go.
Great video, Jason. I got my K3 about 10 years ago to build cabinetry for our home after I got an eye-opening estimate from the professional cabinetmakers in the area. I really can't believe how easy the saw is to use once it's dialed in. It has paid for itself ten times over. I also agree wholeheartedly with you about the inherent safety of the design and the terrible placement of the power switch. Do you happen to have a link to David Bedrosian's video on the magnetic power switch? Thanks again.
Hi Mo - I hope you are enjoying your Fritz and Franz jig. I designed the external power switch for my saw, but I don't have specific plans since it requires some electrical work within the magnetic starter and I don't want to get anyone electrocuted.
Sawstop has a sliding table as an option for their cabinet table saws. The makerspace I belong to just got one. I have a Robland combination machine which is a slider.
What an awesome presentation, using nothing but the facts, and how they apply to your viewers. You just sold hundreds of these saws. You should be doing the trade show circuit for them.
this is how every table saw should look like, can't believe how dangerous regular ones are and that folks find it acceptable (not to mention that you can actually full sheets with this etc). about the apple thing, I would argue that it's the opposite but that is totally subjective, both work :)
I have a C3 31 Comfort. I wish I got a C3 41 Perform but realistically, it's probably too big for my place. I agree with you on safety. If my hands are never close to blade, I do not need a break on that blade. I want to install a VSCtools euro fence to my hammer, and that could solve some fence issues. For rip cuts with sliding table slightly higher than cast iron, you can slide the table to the front so the infeed side your material only touches cast iron, and the offcut will land on sliding table. There are some really good accessories for Hammer sliders. One of them is 0 clearance insert for the blade. I want to cut a door off of the cabinet under the red portion so there is a better access to the saw part and shaper part on my C3 31, and it's also benifitial to do maintenance.
Магнитный пускатель позволяет поставить несколько "постов"(выключателей/кнопок/пуск/стоп). Можно оставить заводскую, а другие разместить в удобных местах. Кнопка не проблема.
Its worth mentioning that Felder has new tech called PCS (Preventive Contact System) with some of their new saws. Its incredible! Same safety as SawStop with zero cartridges and zero damage to blade and it doesn't even touch you. Blade shoots under table and reset button brings blade right back to position previously used.
Very interesting comparison review, you held me to the end. If you are going to upgrade I would certainly look into Attendorf (the inventor of the sliding saw and SCM range. sadly the last two do cost more but are very common in production shops and fine woodworking craftsmen in Europe.
Great video and explanation-I also have a cabinet saw along with a slider but considering selling the cabinet saw. I am kind of space challenged right now.
You know you could add a DRO to that fence to eliminate that issue. You can also add a second pair of buttons for power as a remote and you could use a "spring coiled" cable (it only needs 3 wires for the buttons; if you want to have a light for the ON confirmation, then 4 wires). You can also add a second emergency mushroom/button on that "remote". There are smaller version and won't take up so much space like a regular one. Let me know if you entertain this idea and want me to help you (for free). I'm an automation and mechatronics engineer.
The best way to go is to have both, a slider and cabinet saw, I use my slider to cut sheet goods, and hardwoods on the cabinet saw. I know a lot of people don't have the space for that, both have their advantages. As for for which slider to use, I am not a fan of the felder, having used pretty much all of them over the years, the best machine for value is the SCM, the best machine overall is the Martin, but they're insanely expensive, and the better quality is not needed. Altendorfs are kinda in the middle, I am not a huge fan of them, ,but some people swear by them. Biggest thing is to buy a European brand, the cheaper ones do not cut square and you will be constantly fiddling with it, My saw is still dead square, and I bought it new 20 years ago
Great explainer and thanks. But I’m a bit unclear about use of the fence at 29:10 to cut the final side of the square. What not just flip it over and use the slider?
Great video. Re the example you gave on cutting the cabinet side: after establishing your 90s why don’t you run the panel one more time on the slider setting your stop at required panel width ? This way the off-cut will be the piece that is on the right side of the blade. The one on the slider being the final piece cut to size.
Hi jason, i have the same machine, on mine i have the riving knife set 2mm lower that what the blade is and it has the same riving knife as yours. Was able to do this by loosing the bolt that holds the knife in place and sliding the mechanism back and then lowering the height of the knife before tightening the bolt. Also felder do an optional extra that allows you to add extra start stop button's not sure where abouts they go on the machine. Hope this is of some help to you.
@@derekrobertson1548 I have tried everything with mine and I have never been able to get it below the blade. But, after filming this I finally went and ordered a regular riving knife. They haven’t had them in stock for a long time but they did the other day.
Well poop. After a thumb accident I was going to get a SawStop, (and my particular use case may still dictate them) but this gives me pause. May have to rethink this a bit as you raise some very good points.
Bent, you should take a look at the B3 or KF700 in the Felder series. Think of all the tasks you can do so much more efficient with both a saw and a spindle moulder in combination with a slider… and it does not take any more floor space than the K3.
Jason, what am I missing about ripping the second edge of the board? You pass the board between the fence and the blade standing where you would on a cabinet saw, but the board is not flat on the table due to the elevated sliding table and no saw stop technology. How is this better than a cabinet saw?
There is a gap between the blade and the sliding bed. So if you trim less than the gap distance. You still rest the workpiece on the main stationary surface. For me, i usually rip both sides on the sliding bed. If the fence is properly aligned..it will be square.
One thing I don't totally understand. You mentioned about ripping using the traditional fence and how the slider is higher...so you wouldn't want to do that. However, that's still the technique you use and demonstrated. Have you investigated any additional accessories or techniques that allow you to rip using the outrigger?
I don’t think I did a good job of explaining what I was trying to get across. If set correctly, it isn’t an issue. However when I got mine, the slider was higher than it was supposed to be so it absolutely did make a difference
As you say, so many techniques to change. The first thing to do is put a DRO on the Rip fence and the best place to look is the Felder forum for that. It costs less than a $100 using one of the cheap Chinese DRO's and yes they are just as accurate as the European DRO's. The next thing to do is cut about 225mm off the rip fence, put that on the rip face head and use it as the bump stop when using a F&F jig. The rip fence is too damned long and you won't miss the short length you cut off. The other big advantage to doing that is you don't have the fence hanging out and having to walk around it all the time. I never rip using the fence it is always done on the slider unless the rip is longer than the slider travel....about twice a year! A big heads up on the outrigger flip stops, they bend out of the vertical very easily and it took me a while to work out why the tape calibration was always changing because of it, Felder know about the problem but refuse to fix it. I put a DRO on the outrigger fence as well but that is more of a mission as you will find if you do it. The F&F jig is the single best thing that has been invented for sliders and the idea is only about 15 years old. The switch punch out on the left side is for 3 phase machines and is possibly in a worse position than the single phase version.
Cut one in, add screw tabs and instant access, 15 minutes with an angle grinder and cut off blade and a bit longer to drill holes for the screws to fasten it back in.
The sliding table with scoring blade has much better cut quality for laminated plywood. Not sure if you're has support for scoring blade. Edit: Ah I see yours have support for scoring blade. It's another advantage of cabinet saw for cleaner cuts.
When you do your first rip cut you already established 90, the edges on plywood are straight they are just not square so you don't really need to do 2 cuts unless its obviously not straight, when you cut your lengths and then turn the piece to do the crosscut you can cut off the end then, i find it to be the easier more manageable way to do these cuts. Also i see you also watch ramon i learned a bunch from his channel i love that guy. I own a cabinet shop and i always question should i have this instead or that instead but it honestly all comes down to what you do the most, i do cabinets most of the time so a digital sliding table saw is where its at for me and i have a contractor saw to do dados and rip down face frames.
Sir maybe have a electrical contractor wiring a limit switch on the full stroke of the table in that way when it hits the switch it would turn the saw off. Then when you start to cut again all you have turn back on.
You made the comment, some of you are going to spend money after watching this! Wifes will hate you! I'm in that category lol! I've been slowly setting up mine for a month or so. It's a completely different beautiful world!
Good lord! That fence is terrible. I have a Harvey cabinet saw with the newest Big Eye fence. Unbeatable! I use my Festool to breakdown sheet goods. Much easier than lifting a large sheet good onto a sliding table.
A little bit desappointed, as I've expected to see a comparizon side by side between the kinds of saws. What a sliding saw could be do than a cabinet could not ? So I'm wondering if the best choice isn't a cabinet saw with an optionnal sliding extension (like Harveys Ind. does) where the sliding extension can be blocked when you want.
I've had sliders by Wadkin, Ulma and Felder. Between shops atm but looking for 2nd hand Martin or Altendorf. Cabinet saws are just ripping machines imo 😊
This was a very good talk about both the good and the bad...I pretty much share the exact same opinions on those things. I'm SCM/Minimax but everything you identified is pretty much the same.
So it's safer than a cabinet saw for kick back, but nothing about accidentally touching the blade with your hand, which is the point of a Sawstop. Honest question--is kickback a major concern with the Sawstop or other cabinet saws if you use the riving knife, feather boards, and follow safe procedures? Hopefully the blade safety (either Sawstop style or otherwise) trickles down to lower end sliding table saws. Now that Sawstop opened their patents I wonder if the EU will end up requiring that tech in sliding table saws, or maybe accidents on them aren't significant enough of an issue.
The thing is h oh Stand not the left side of the blade, and you don’t have to have your hands as close to the blade as with a cabjnetsaw, once you tried it you will never ever want to go back 👍
@@tonyjohansson9658 that makes sense although I still think people could get complacent and have a bad time. I hope someday I have the space for one though.
Installing a 12” blade will allow you to get that riving knife just below the top of the blade for non through cuts. I agree that a sliding table saw is inherently safer. Especially when you clamp the material to the slider. But… I had the hammer. They’re trash. Sooooo difficult to get everything calibrated properly to give precise cuts. Pretty much all adjustments are made by turning nuts on the treads then tightening them again. And they’re all so finicky that even just tightening in more or less throws out the accuracy significantly let alone actually turning the nuts more or less. I think for sheet goods they can be great once set up. For everything else (joinery, fancy angles etc) give me a cabinet saw any day. I “upgraded” the hammer for a felder 700S. Big expensive powerful saw. Felder techs have tried to calibrate the slider twice now. I’ve spend about 20hrs myself. Friken nightmare. If they don’t get it right on their third attempt then I’m done with it. Lost all faith in felder. Their engineering is shit and antiquated.
@@jerishigan6567Please explain the falsehood here. I genuinely don’t get why there is so much angst with a safety feature that clearly has little to no downside.
I agree with you about SawStop. Its a great saw with an added benefit of the safety feature it has. Personally, I think if you are buying a SawStop just because of the safety feature, you shouldn't be using a saw at all. The kind of carelessness and stupidity required to run any part of your body through a saw blade is rediculous.
what an ignorant approach to life. how many times have you been cutting something, walking through a store, or even driving, and then realized you were not at all focused on what you're doing? everyone of us has had that experience where you think "wow I haven't looked at the road for like 5 minutes." mistakes and distractions happen constantly! consider this statement: "Personally, I think if you are buying a post-1999 automobile just because of the antilock brakes, airbags, crumple zones, and auto-tensioning seat belts, well then you shouldn't be operating a motor vehicle." asinine
Accidents are called accidents for a reason. The assumption someone was injured because they were either careless or stupid is, in itself, careless and stupid. Nothing wrong with spending YOUR OWN MONEY based on YOUR OWN CRITERIA, period. I won’t beat the SS technology dead horse.
This was my thought. It's one of the things I love about the Harvey dust collector. I have a remote hanging on the table saw, and another in my tool pouch.
Great video, Jason. I used a cabinet saw for quite a few decades before switching to my K3 and I would never go back. Similar to you, it took me a while to get used to the different way of operating with the K3 but now that I am comfortable with it, it's fabulous. I agree 100% about the added safety of the slider both because of your body position and because of the accessories (like the Fritz and Franz) that allow you to hold the workpiece so your hands are well away from the blade. I've got the Hammer riving knife and I prefer that over the splitter that comes with the saw. One other thing you may want to look into are parallel ripping guides. They allow you to make a rip cut using the sliding table rather than the fence. I find that I get more accurate and cleaner cuts when the wood is being pushed past the blade on the sliding table compared to using the fence. Keep up the great work!!
Where do you get the ripping guides?
@@chrisroberts3963 I think with the hammer you need to make them yourself. I have the felder ones (direct from felder) with my saw and they are a game changer. Perfectly straight and parallel cuts even with very large and heavy workpieces.
Thanks!!
Thumbs up. I enjoyed this video. After more than 40 years of using traditional US table saws I bought a Felder KF700 four years ago. The learning curve was tough and I struggled to learn on my own how to properly use the saw. I’m fortunate to have a large enough shop to have both my trusty Powermatic 66 sitting next to the Felder in the reverse direction. It’s my version of Ramon’s setup.
The slider is pure joy to process sheet goods. The Powermatic typically has the Oshlun Box Finger Joint blade in it. Perfect for drawer bottoms and cabinet backs. My two person shop now builds cabinets and store fixtures as fast or faster than when we were a team of five. I never want to cut melamine or crosscut plywood without a scoring blade ever again.
We can’t all go to Alpine Workshop (but I would recommend it), hopefully you and few more creators will share tips and tricks to getting great results and all the benefits of a sliding table saw.
I hope to have many more videos on it
@ you are repeatedly correct about a higher grade saw. Many of your issues are better on the Felder. Room and cost of course are always the first consideration.
Hi from Germany. For two problems, I will probably have a solution. :D
I have a KF700 but the fence is in some cases identical. I use a M503 Display include magnetic sensor. Once calibrated. All is absolute perfect. :)
For the switches in the sliding table, i didn't buy the expensive version of felder with a complicated system. I use a 2 channel garage door opener with 433mhz to simulate the on and off button. This works great and was even cheaper that the magnetic sensor 😅
Did you have to manipulate the on off button on the saw?
Thanks Tony
@tonyjohansson9658 No, that's easy to install, both buttons with a own relais. The green button is parallel (NO - closer contact) and the red button in a row (NC - opener contact) in my memory.
If the battery is empty from the remote, the only problem is, that the new buttons don't work... :D
Fun fact, the technician of Felder means, that this is a great idea. The original installation has so many problems with the contacts over the X-Roll Table. But the german safety organisation has strict regulations, that this can't be a remote contact. The first generation in the table even was with a remote and cheaper 🙈
Interessant, ich hab die Felder k540s wo der fern Schalter keine option ist, und es stört echt öfter mit 3200 länge. Hast du irgendwelche links oder Tutorial benutzt um das einzubauen oder vom kopf selber ausgedruckt? VG
I wish I was smart and came up with solutions like that 🤣🤣
Hi Jason, you probably already realize this but in your plywood cutting scenario you can square the board then use the flip stop on the slider fence to cut to desired size. This way you are using the same reference surface. Also better cut quality and economy of motion vs having to relocate to the right side of the saw to push the piece through.
Heck, if you’re ripping stuff just use the Fritz and franz jig in conjunction with the rip fence in its rearward position. The rip fence becomes a ‘bump stop’ for each consecutive cut. All work is done from the left side.
I went from a Sawstop to the Felder 500P. Totally loved using the slider but like you realized the shortcomings of the more basic Felder 500P. Sold it and went to the Felder Kappa 400 X-Motion with all digital crosscut stops and totally love using it. Expensive, yes, but it is totally satisfying to use. Overkill for a hobbyist perhaps, but man is it nice to use. My shop is 24’ x 24’ and it fits fine and I can rip a full 8’ on the slider.
Yeah, I can understand why you would go for that. You only get one life so enjoy the tools!
I have had my k3 for over a year. I love my saw! I agree completely with your criticisms especially the on, off button. I made a parallel jig using an incra jig off of eBay. Now unless I am make a single rip I set up the incra in seconds an make perfect rips using the sliding table. It super safe and super accurate for repeat cuts or batch cuts. Fingers are never near the blade. Also kickbacks are much less likely!
That's great to hear you're enjoying it!
Jason, this is super informative. Thank you. Pricing and space are probably the only hinderances for most of us but the in-depth functionality of jointing an edge is SUPER handy. One thing of note regarding safety: Sawstop's braking system is functionally good, but the technology is basically archaic in comparison to the Felder camera and blade drop system.
Thanks, glad you found it helpful!
Thanks for the video, excellent as always. My thought on cabinet saws vs sliding saws comes down to what you build. If my primary products are made with sheet goods, then the sliding saw makes so much sense. However, if I am making stick built furniture with cross cut sleds, tapering jigs, or want the ability to use fence attachments of any kind (like sacrificial fences or vertical feather boards ) I would choose the cabinet saw. Depends on what you build.
Great video! I’ve got the Grizzly 5’ slider and it has been a game changer. The MFT got sold shortly after but I did keep my Sawstop for dados and ripping. One of the best features of a slider is the scoring blade which will allow you to work with melamines and laminates. I only wish I had gotten an 8’ slider.
Glad you're enjoying yours! I hear ya on the 8'!
Great insight, wish I had the room for a slider, so versatile
It really does open up your options.
Definitely a learning curve when you're completely changing your approach to the work. An overarm guard that's not connected to the saw might work for you. I see the dust collection above the work to be more of a benefit than it being a guard.
Agreed!
Outstanding overview. I moved up to the Grizzly slider - that's all the budget could eat at the moment. You hit on all the reasons i went for it. I also have the space to keep a normal cabinet saw set up with a dado stack - i found chnging out the slder was a pain. I kept my safty cover/ dust collection connected to keep some of the dust out of my face. If i were to add anything , i wish the slider i have could handle a full sheet length on the slider. I am not a production shop, so i have work aournds to deal with that when it comes up. I am with others - not sure how i ever got along without the slider. Take care.
I’ll definitely go 8’ slider next time.
Because of you I bought a K3. Love, love, love it! At the same time I bought the pricy Festool miter saw. I never use it 🤦♂️. The K3 really illuminates the need for it.
Glad to hear it!!
This was an interesting perspective. I've always thought they took up too much space, but after watching this, I realize it's only because I've been looking at as needing 36 or more inches to the right of the blade, rather than doing most of the cutting on the left. I'll never likely ever have one, but the way you laid out your journey with it was very enlightening. I'd still keep my miter saw though. 😀
What I try to communicate to people is that you still have to have space open around a cabinet saw, it just isn’t something you see like a big slider hanging off or an outrigger. Thats what people have a hard time grasping
Used a Ulma sliding table saw while I was stationed in Germany. Absolutely loved it, best saw I have ever used. I have a Delta Unisaw and been thinking of adding a slider, not the same but a lot less expensive of a new saw 😅
Thank you for a great video. Just got a Felder K700 and is learning how to use it the best way.
Nice!
I got one a little bit before you. I may make a video in sort of a reply to this video largely talking about space, safety and how it saves money by reducing amount of tools (eg miter saws are now pointless as you mentioned).
Anyway, 100% agree that this tool is way better than a cabinet saw and I’m so glad I didn’t end up with a sawstop.
That sounds great! I’d love to see your video on it.
I get it! Bought a C3-31 5 yrs ago, and love it and would move to a felder now… just have to make more cabs to make $$ first ;)
I think that’s a great plan!
I've always held to the opinion that a slider is superior to a traditional cabinet saw, both in terms of utility and safety. You've done an excellent job of explaining the benefits.
Yeah totally agree. A cabinet saw is only better for really small parts in my experience. A crosscut sled on a cabinet saw I find easier for that.
And with blade guard and dust extraction from the top (on the larger models) it's even safer. You can put that thing real low so you can't even reach the blade with your hand. And your lungs will thank you too
Thanks for watching and I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I made the switch from traditional cabinet saw to a 5 function minimax format style combo machine in 2002. Never looked back. The fence is the weakest part, but it is very easy to overcome, and if one really wanted a Beisemyer fence could be modified to work. But the more you learn the capabilities of the slider, the less you use the rip fence anyway. Example, I would never use the rip fence for the cut you made at the 29 minute mark. Slider all the way for that cut too.
If I keep this I’ll definitely look at different fence options.
I had a K3 basic years ago and sold it when I needed the space in my garage. We have moved to a new property that will have lots of room to build a shop. Once I have that done, it's a Felder K500 with the outrigger will be in the shop. Once you go slider, you never look back.
Totally agree, it’s an amazing machine.
Good video. My dad was a cabinet maker, I grew up with a Altendorf F45 sliding table saw in the garage which I learned to use as a teenage. Great saw, I've been completely spoiled by it over the years! Sadly my dad recently passed away and I've got that table saw up for sale now. Going to be so hard to let it go.
Sorry to hear about your dad.
That was a really well done video.
Thank you
@@bentswoodworking it would be good to do a follow up on $$$$ what are the costs of the saw stop vs budget vs felder.
Great video, Jason. I got my K3 about 10 years ago to build cabinetry for our home after I got an eye-opening estimate from the professional cabinetmakers in the area. I really can't believe how easy the saw is to use once it's dialed in. It has paid for itself ten times over. I also agree wholeheartedly with you about the inherent safety of the design and the terrible placement of the power switch. Do you happen to have a link to David Bedrosian's video on the magnetic power switch? Thanks again.
Hi Mo - I hope you are enjoying your Fritz and Franz jig. I designed the external power switch for my saw, but I don't have specific plans since it requires some electrical work within the magnetic starter and I don't want to get anyone electrocuted.
@@davidbedrosian1567 Thanks David. I hope you are well and life in Canada is good. I totally understand. Best wishes.
I see you got the answer from the man himself
Sawstop has a sliding table as an option for their cabinet table saws. The makerspace I belong to just got one. I have a Robland combination machine which is a slider.
What an awesome presentation, using nothing but the facts, and how they apply to your viewers.
You just sold hundreds of these saws. You should be doing the trade show circuit for them.
this is how every table saw should look like, can't believe how dangerous regular ones are and that folks find it acceptable (not to mention that you can actually full sheets with this etc). about the apple thing, I would argue that it's the opposite but that is totally subjective, both work :)
Apple all the way 🤣
I have a C3 31 Comfort. I wish I got a C3 41 Perform but realistically, it's probably too big for my place.
I agree with you on safety. If my hands are never close to blade, I do not need a break on that blade. I want to install a VSCtools euro fence to my hammer, and that could solve some fence issues.
For rip cuts with sliding table slightly higher than cast iron, you can slide the table to the front so the infeed side your material only touches cast iron, and the offcut will land on sliding table.
There are some really good accessories for Hammer sliders. One of them is 0 clearance insert for the blade.
I want to cut a door off of the cabinet under the red portion so there is a better access to the saw part and shaper part on my C3 31, and it's also benifitial to do maintenance.
Магнитный пускатель позволяет поставить несколько "постов"(выключателей/кнопок/пуск/стоп). Можно оставить заводскую, а другие разместить в удобных местах. Кнопка не проблема.
Its worth mentioning that Felder has new tech called PCS (Preventive Contact System) with some of their new saws. Its incredible! Same safety as SawStop with zero cartridges and zero damage to blade and it doesn't even touch you. Blade shoots under table and reset button brings blade right back to position previously used.
Saw stop has a sliding table option available. Any thoughts there?
Yep, double saw set up is great (I have a felder kf700s and an old Unisaw). Time for a bigger shop ;)
Very interesting comparison review, you held me to the end. If you are going to upgrade I would certainly look into Attendorf (the inventor of the sliding saw and SCM range. sadly the last two do cost more but are very common in production shops and fine woodworking craftsmen in Europe.
Thanks for watching!
Great video and explanation-I also have a cabinet saw along with a slider but considering selling the cabinet saw. I am kind of space challenged right now.
I’ve been there! It’s a tough decision.
You know you could add a DRO to that fence to eliminate that issue.
You can also add a second pair of buttons for power as a remote and you could use a "spring coiled" cable (it only needs 3 wires for the buttons; if you want to have a light for the ON confirmation, then 4 wires). You can also add a second emergency mushroom/button on that "remote". There are smaller version and won't take up so much space like a regular one.
Let me know if you entertain this idea and want me to help you (for free).
I'm an automation and mechatronics engineer.
I have thought about doing so but I will likely move to the Felder next year.
The best way to go is to have both, a slider and cabinet saw, I use my slider to cut sheet goods, and hardwoods on the cabinet saw. I know a lot of people don't have the space for that, both have their advantages. As for for which slider to use, I am not a fan of the felder, having used pretty much all of them over the years, the best machine for value is the SCM, the best machine overall is the Martin, but they're insanely expensive, and the better quality is not needed. Altendorfs are kinda in the middle, I am not a huge fan of them, ,but some people swear by them. Biggest thing is to buy a European brand, the cheaper ones do not cut square and you will be constantly fiddling with it, My saw is still dead square, and I bought it new 20 years ago
Did you stop using the tso parallel guides when you bought the slider?
@@IndianaJBird I definitely don’t use them very much anymore
@@bentswoodworkingnow to find another 12k 😂
Thanks for sharing! Do you have a video coming up on your Oneida dust collector in the background of your video?
I do have one planned soon.
Great explainer and thanks. But I’m a bit unclear about use of the fence at 29:10 to cut the final side of the square. What not just flip it over and use the slider?
You can
Great video. Re the example you gave on cutting the cabinet side: after establishing your 90s why don’t you run the panel one more time on the slider setting your stop at required panel width ? This way the off-cut will be the piece that is on the right side of the blade. The one on the slider being the final piece cut to size.
You definitely can
How did you solve the splitter pinching against the fence? I have the same issue.
I had to make sure the bracket that holds it was fully seated which I was not
Hi jason, i have the same machine, on mine i have the riving knife set 2mm lower that what the blade is and it has the same riving knife as yours. Was able to do this by loosing the bolt that holds the knife in place and sliding the mechanism back and then lowering the height of the knife before tightening the bolt. Also felder do an optional extra that allows you to add extra start stop button's not sure where abouts they go on the machine. Hope this is of some help to you.
@@derekrobertson1548 I have tried everything with mine and I have never been able to get it below the blade. But, after filming this I finally went and ordered a regular riving knife. They haven’t had them in stock for a long time but they did the other day.
Parallels between the Hammer and SYS 50? I would be very interested to hear more on that.
Previously mentioned wanting to upgrade to a full size slider. Would you consider that in a shop your size?
Yes. I will definitely go with the 8’ slide capacity on the next one.
Well poop. After a thumb accident I was going to get a SawStop, (and my particular use case may still dictate them) but this gives me pause. May have to rethink this a bit as you raise some very good points.
I have that effect on people. Lol
Jason, are you going to cover and detail your new dust collector? Curious if you're still using the Harvey unit. Thank you for the videos!!
Yes I am!
Good stuff 😀
Glad you liked it!
Bent, you should take a look at the B3 or KF700 in the Felder series. Think of all the tasks you can do so much more efficient with both a saw and a spindle moulder in combination with a slider… and it does not take any more floor space than the K3.
I don’t know if I would like to have the spindle in the saw.
Jason, what am I missing about ripping the second edge of the board? You pass the board between the fence and the blade standing where you would on a cabinet saw, but the board is not flat on the table due to the elevated sliding table and no saw stop technology.
How is this better than a cabinet saw?
There is a gap between the blade and the sliding bed. So if you trim less than the gap distance. You still rest the workpiece on the main stationary surface. For me, i usually rip both sides on the sliding bed. If the fence is properly aligned..it will be square.
I rip on the left side of the slider whenever possible using a Fritz and Franz jig. Way safer
One thing I don't totally understand. You mentioned about ripping using the traditional fence and how the slider is higher...so you wouldn't want to do that. However, that's still the technique you use and demonstrated. Have you investigated any additional accessories or techniques that allow you to rip using the outrigger?
I don’t think I did a good job of explaining what I was trying to get across. If set correctly, it isn’t an issue. However when I got mine, the slider was higher than it was supposed to be so it absolutely did make a difference
brave man dipping your toes into the windows/Mac thing. 🙂
🤣
As you say, so many techniques to change. The first thing to do is put a DRO on the Rip fence and the best place to look is the Felder forum for that. It costs less than a $100 using one of the cheap Chinese DRO's and yes they are just as accurate as the European DRO's. The next thing to do is cut about 225mm off the rip fence, put that on the rip face head and use it as the bump stop when using a F&F jig. The rip fence is too damned long and you won't miss the short length you cut off. The other big advantage to doing that is you don't have the fence hanging out and having to walk around it all the time. I never rip using the fence it is always done on the slider unless the rip is longer than the slider travel....about twice a year! A big heads up on the outrigger flip stops, they bend out of the vertical very easily and it took me a while to work out why the tape calibration was always changing because of it, Felder know about the problem but refuse to fix it. I put a DRO on the outrigger fence as well but that is more of a mission as you will find if you do it. The F&F jig is the single best thing that has been invented for sliders and the idea is only about 15 years old. The switch punch out on the left side is for 3 phase machines and is possibly in a worse position than the single phase version.
Wish they put an accessible panel on the side to access the dust collection.👍🏝️🇨🇦
Cut one in, add screw tabs and instant access, 15 minutes with an angle grinder and cut off blade and a bit longer to drill holes for the screws to fasten it back in.
I knew after aboutg 5 minutes into this video that you’d be upgrading to a Felder. Will you get a longer slider?
Yes I will go for 8’ capacity
Great video. I’d be more than happy to send you 3D printed parts if you have a design. A fence curser would be easy to make.
Design would be my biggest problem 🤣
Funny at 29:10
You cut 3 sides using the slider.
Why use the fence forcthe fourth.
Don't understand the change in process 😕
You don’t have to. It was just an example of
The sliding table with scoring blade has much better cut quality for laminated plywood. Not sure if you're has support for scoring blade.
Edit: Ah I see yours have support for scoring blade. It's another advantage of cabinet saw for cleaner cuts.
When you do your first rip cut you already established 90, the edges on plywood are straight they are just not square so you don't really need to do 2 cuts unless its obviously not straight, when you cut your lengths and then turn the piece to do the crosscut you can cut off the end then, i find it to be the easier more manageable way to do these cuts. Also i see you also watch ramon i learned a bunch from his channel i love that guy. I own a cabinet shop and i always question should i have this instead or that instead but it honestly all comes down to what you do the most, i do cabinets most of the time so a digital sliding table saw is where its at for me and i have a contractor saw to do dados and rip down face frames.
Sir maybe have a electrical contractor wiring a limit switch on the full stroke of the table in that way when it hits the switch it would turn the saw off. Then when you start to cut again all you have turn back on.
You made the comment, some of you are going to spend money after watching this! Wifes will hate you! I'm in that category lol! I've been slowly setting up mine for a month or so. It's a completely different beautiful world!
It is a different world for sure!
Good lord! That fence is terrible. I have a Harvey cabinet saw with the newest Big Eye fence. Unbeatable! I use my Festool to breakdown sheet goods. Much easier than lifting a large sheet good onto a sliding table.
Agreed. Incapable of the fundamentals, I’d rather have a cabinet saw. I build mainly fine furniture though, not a lot of cabinets and boxes.
A little bit desappointed, as I've expected to see a comparizon side by side between the kinds of saws. What a sliding saw could be do than a cabinet could not ?
So I'm wondering if the best choice isn't a cabinet saw with an optionnal sliding extension (like Harveys Ind. does) where the sliding extension can be blocked when you want.
I thought you were going to get a Felder? Waiting for that to happen.
I will be
Power button location. All you have to do is develop a remote control device to operate the saw. How? Hey...I'm just the idea guy!
I've had sliders by Wadkin, Ulma and Felder. Between shops atm but looking for 2nd hand Martin or Altendorf. Cabinet saws are just ripping machines imo 😊
This was a very good talk about both the good and the bad...I pretty much share the exact same opinions on those things. I'm SCM/Minimax but everything you identified is pretty much the same.
Thanks Jim
Wish they 110 or 120v model...
So it's safer than a cabinet saw for kick back, but nothing about accidentally touching the blade with your hand, which is the point of a Sawstop. Honest question--is kickback a major concern with the Sawstop or other cabinet saws if you use the riving knife, feather boards, and follow safe procedures? Hopefully the blade safety (either Sawstop style or otherwise) trickles down to lower end sliding table saws. Now that Sawstop opened their patents I wonder if the EU will end up requiring that tech in sliding table saws, or maybe accidents on them aren't significant enough of an issue.
The thing is h oh Stand not the left side of the blade, and you don’t have to have your hands as close to the blade as with a cabjnetsaw, once you tried it you will never ever want to go back 👍
@@tonyjohansson9658 that makes sense although I still think people could get complacent and have a bad time. I hope someday I have the space for one though.
Installing a 12” blade will allow you to get that riving knife just below the top of the blade for non through cuts.
I agree that a sliding table saw is inherently safer. Especially when you clamp the material to the slider. But…
I had the hammer. They’re trash. Sooooo difficult to get everything calibrated properly to give precise cuts. Pretty much all adjustments are made by turning nuts on the treads then tightening them again. And they’re all so finicky that even just tightening in more or less throws out the accuracy significantly let alone actually turning the nuts more or less.
I think for sheet goods they can be great once set up. For everything else (joinery, fancy angles etc) give me a cabinet saw any day.
I “upgraded” the hammer for a felder 700S. Big expensive powerful saw. Felder techs have tried to calibrate the slider twice now. I’ve spend about 20hrs myself. Friken nightmare. If they don’t get it right on their third attempt then I’m done with it. Lost all faith in felder. Their engineering is shit and antiquated.
Oh! I see there IS a remote device, although it's hard-wired.
It’s being too comfortable that will lead to accidents, not the opposite!
I can’t believe he didn’t know the main fence will slide back and make his fall offs not pinch the blade
………uh…….i did know that…….and talk about it…….
With all the affordable track saws out now I feel a sliding table saw really isn’t worth it unless you do woodworking solely as a job
The SawStop safety feature is a novelty. I’ve never understood the overwhelming hype it gets. Cool vid on the slider.
yeah. antilock brakes and airbags too - never understood why anyone would want those either
@This example of the false equivalency fallacy is as boring as it is snarky. The internet never fails to inspire the acid in some people.
Sure. Its a novelty - right up to when it pops instead of cutting into you.
@@jerishigan6567Please explain the falsehood here. I genuinely don’t get why there is so much angst with a safety feature that clearly has little to no downside.
I agree with you about SawStop. Its a great saw with an added benefit of the safety feature it has. Personally, I think if you are buying a SawStop just because of the safety feature, you shouldn't be using a saw at all. The kind of carelessness and stupidity required to run any part of your body through a saw blade is rediculous.
Agreed
what an ignorant approach to life. how many times have you been cutting something, walking through a store, or even driving, and then realized you were not at all focused on what you're doing? everyone of us has had that experience where you think "wow I haven't looked at the road for like 5 minutes." mistakes and distractions happen constantly! consider this statement: "Personally, I think if you are buying a post-1999 automobile just because of the antilock brakes, airbags, crumple zones, and auto-tensioning seat belts, well then you shouldn't be operating a motor vehicle." asinine
haha, well, if you're into deleting comments you don't like, i guess it's time to move on. good luck with the struggle with logic.
Accidents are called accidents for a reason. The assumption someone was injured because they were either careless or stupid is, in itself, careless and stupid. Nothing wrong with spending YOUR OWN MONEY based on YOUR OWN CRITERIA, period. I won’t beat the SS technology dead horse.
You could plug it into a remote switch...too much
Conversation on this concern....
This was my thought. It's one of the things I love about the Harvey dust collector. I have a remote hanging on the table saw, and another in my tool pouch.
its great and all but as a hobby , a sawstop is as far as I go.
I'll buy your MFT setup if you choose to get rid of it.
There's only 1 sliding table saw and that an aldendorff. The rest are all bad copies. Once you have had an aldendorff you'll know exactly why.
Learn your tool
Why buy it if you have so many issues
less issues than with cabinet saw.
You had me until the Apple thing LOL
At least I didn’t say Alexa
@bentswoodworking good point lol. I need to have a conversation with you about that saw in the next few weeks if you have time