Squad's Infantry Overhaul Almost Gets it Right
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
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TLDR - I think they should keep suppression from playtest 1, sway from playtest 2, increase vertical recoil by 5%, model ballistic protection, and defeat picture and picture peripheral blur by making clear the peripheral area when free looking while ADSing magnified optics.
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100 percent agreed
good idea actually, the sway is what annoyed me the most, but I see that further suppression would improve the game experience.
I really like your take on body armor. That would be a big game changer if we had proper helmet and plate protection.
the problem is, it would make balance issues to factions that already suffer from worse weapons and gears like Insurgents and militia which don’t have any body protections on their body.
I like that you offered a solution instead of complaining about the problems. You very well understand the whole situation and debate on this whole system. And you acknowledge this is still a video game and impossible to capture 100% of what it means to shoot a weapon in real life, while still making this a heavily teamwork based game.
Squad: More lengthy firefights with these features
Me: More hasty ambushes with these features 😎
Based 🤣
If they want more realistic long firefights we need to start making each round last 48 hours as we get pinned and wait for cassevac, etc. Game is great as is, pip is awesome but to artificially increase ttk with poor gunplay like exaggerated sway or recoil is ridiculous.
@@G_Zero127In the current build of squad I can jump across buildings and catch ledges at the edge of a hitbox and immediately full auto an enemy with my AK from 200m away with relatively easy control all while under fire. You don't need to make it literally like real life, but the direction they're going and the adjustments their making are a step in the right direction if you're looking for immersion rather than run and gunning
@@G_Zero127 Try playing the overhaul and you'll realize that it's still easy to get kills if you know what you're doing. TTK (even in the first playtest) was still short provided that you had over 75% stamina and were crouching still. You only have exaggerated sway when being suppressed or had low stamina, etc. At that point, you shouldn't be complaining about having low accuracy anyways lol
@@johanngaiusisinwingazuluah2116 I played both, the sway is the same regardless of stance, plenty of videos demonstrating it too. You can see also even prone the 2 dots at bottom of screen dont get any closer at full stamina.
I hope this works since I cant put a link but try putting this : /watch?v=vtL3uWlMZyg&t at the end of your youtube and the 7:40 mark explains what I mean.
I am a 50kd player in squad, have almost 3000 hours played and do airsoft and real target shooting and I can say with confidence I don't sway like that even when aiming with my LPVO. I like all other changes and suppression is awesome but just not happy with the gunplay.
I also noticed when reloading your walk speed gets reduced 85-90% so if you reload in the open field you are basically dead/sitting duck as you get crippled while reloading a magazine. When there is videos of even people sprinting while reloading a flintlock.
So hyped to get back into squad with this update
Same!
Same. This already looks so much more like an actual “sin” versus old squad.
If anyone can recommend some communities to play with that’d be stellar.
Didn't realize you played Squad Wolfpack that's dope!
Same
One thing about sight alignment I haven't seen anyone mention, is that the computer screen is not your head, yours is planted firmly on a gaming chair's headrest. How do you accurately simulate some ones view and head motion while, shooting, moving, stepping over logs and rocks and varied terrain, and still cause the need for the work your brain does filtering out much of that motion, making it appear flatter and focused in real life? Some misalignment that looks unrealistic when applied to the rifle would actually be realistic if applied to the players head and body, but that would be even more jarring cause your real head isn't moving. Just like VR has the floating stock problem when glueing the screen to your head, a traditional monitor has the converse problem it can't portray your heads motion without causing motion sickness and jitters. I mean look at vr footage! Look it on a monitor! It is soooo shaky. If someone told me that vr footage is the actual motion and alignment of someones head if I didn't know what VR is, I wouldn't believe them, i'd say its unrealistic!
Just like drawing a 3d building on 2d paper, to get something realistic you have to abstract and draw unrealistically diagonal lines for a side wall. If realistic angles can only be used, you'd only have a 2d drawing. All of game design is like that. Sight misalignment may be a game design abstraction to get an more accurate end experience, maybe there's multiple complementary other systems that could be used to achieve realistic affects, but they aren't being suggested, and idrk.
Thought the exact same thing. But they're still making changes and it's still a massive step in the right direction.
100%
I think instead of sight misalignment, which is unrealistic increasing arm fatigue and sway after sprinting should be able to remedy the “run and gun” play style. Visual blur should be intense in peripheral and tunnel like directly in front of you(simulating being hyper focused). Finally, while being suppressed, have the flinch be more pronounced. The nervous reflex of rounds coming overhead is a hard one to beat.
All fair, though I think blur on suppressed is a significant enough debuff that twitching can be avoided (despite it being a very real thing).
@@ControlledPairsGaming Some degree of sight misalignment does happen though irl, that's exactly why reflex or holographic sights are superior over iron sights, you get a good sight picture without perfectly aligning the gun with your eyes!
Perhaps it's too much ingame, I haven't been able to test it myself, but it's really cool they implemented such mechanics in the first place! Many games are way too simplistic with their ADS presentation, where reticles are simply sprites pasted on the center of the screen, I'm so tired of such ancient rendering mechanics.
no. irl you have eyes which can look around are aren't just locked to the sight
The flinching was god damn awful, it needs to be lowered but not erased, so you at least don't lose the orientation while ADSing.
@@ControlledPairsGaming Then you are back to clicking heads under fire as it was common in PR, despite having higher accuracy penalties when shooting. TBH the best form of suppresion was when a graphics driver bug for certain cards made your screen go black for the duration that was supposed to be blurry.
I for one is totally fine with playing what amounts to a young character who just finished infantry training and is scared beyond belief.
Comparing firefights in the overhaul (well really Playtest 1), the firefights looked so much more like the ones I have seen on video both from the GWOT and Ukraine. In fact, the real ones could have so much suppressive fire in weird directions it sometimes (but not always) looks more like comforting shooting than disciplined suppressive fire (yes, even some US infantrymen, before anyone says anything).
I have seen videos of people seeing exposed enemies and getting so pumped up they are missing shots one really wonders how anyone could miss. I have also seen the opposite, videos of people standing under a hail of automatic CANNON fire and barely even reacting, just calmly shooting back, but that is not the norm.
My point is, most humans are scared, I am fine with it in a game like Squad. If I had the same suppressive effects while playing a Delta Force operator with 15 years of combat experience, that would feel a bit off.
Don't get me wrong, I think they should achieve these results using realistic mechanics, and using a kind of gunsway which is almost physically impossible is not the right option, but let's not miss the forest for the trees.
Also, don't get me wrong, this post is not a direct critique of what you are saying, but more of a diagonal post, so to speak. Indeed I found most of your points excellent, especially around the problems faced. I am just saying that if we put emphasis on the less important things in our critique to OWI, we might get a poor end result (like you pointed out in your video). Like I said, there is a danger of missing the forest for the trees.
Totally understand your position. I suspect there is compromise somewhere in the middle. Reduce misalignment from PT 1 and increase Sway exponentially as suppression increases and stamina decreases.
I like the sight misalignment from a video creator perspective... It looks cool, but even a young Infantryman under stress can manage a cheek weld when it's required.
@@ControlledPairsGaming I agree, I really think the curve of inaccuracy (whether you want to achieve that by sway or some other means) should increase exponentially with suppression. Let people be accurate when calm, but inaccurate when freaking out. We have to simulate stress-based inaccuracy somehow, and it is not 100% obvious how to do it when the player controlling the character are themselves not fearing for their life.
@@Go_Coup Isn't Karmakut an example of this?
@@Go_Coup Have you seen Karmakut desperately trying to defend himself from a lot of people in the comment section of his video about Squad?
What I see from these first two test is bracketing. PT#1 is over shot. PT#2 is under shot. I have a feeling that the next several test will bracket closer and closer to what is most ideal with some lateral deviation in the form of the addition and subtraction of features.
Maybe we will see increases in animation time for actions such as reloading and ADS while under suppression/ low on stamina. Weapon stabilization similar to Arma 3 in order to promote prepared positions. Squad proximity buffs (perhaps reduced suppression effects when near squad mates that are shooting).
Just spitballing, but I see why they are doing as deliberate, and only about 50% feedback dependent at this point. At least until they get on target.
Anyway, excellent commentary. I really enjoyed the mix of personal IRL experience and realizing that it is still a game. Cheers!
This is all great news, way too many QE lean cheaters, parkour guys that get into nonsense places and shoot people, those that are full on sprinters then when come around the corner instantly head shot you, then there are those that under full suppression just head shot you with one shot from 300m. It was all nonsense and I can hear their tears now, no more cheating, actual teamwork and tactics required.
How is leaning cheating? Lol
@@mauricepigeonviking2460 Spamming lean back and forth from one side to the other to be harder to shoot isnt realistic and cheesy
@@Mrcool179 but it also isnt cheating, notably
@@yellowsaurus4895 they did call it an exploit in the developer logs, for what its worth, but yeah its not cheating
@@mauricepigeonviking2460 it’s not cheating unless you use those QE lean macros or scripts but it certainly is stupid and immersion breaking for a professed milsim game.
PiP blur is to hide fact that pheriperial view is affected by resolution reduction to improve performance. However the resolution reduction seem to be not as severe as applied blur. If I would have to choose, I would like to choose better performance anyway.
Same. I think a fair middle ground is to blur the periphery until the player free looks.
@@ControlledPairsGaming but it works like that already
In my experience, most players use full auto in the game within 70 meters because it is manageable. Even while MOVING. I think the sight misalignment and blur is a great tool to reduce the effectiveness of full-auto. Proper cadence should produce the most accurate results.
It’s not about being real. It’s mimicking realism for better games. People need to understand this.
I think everyone does.
@@ControlledPairsGaming I genuinely don’t think people do. Otherwise the counter argument for the update wouldn’t be “But in real life…”. You know?
playtest 1 was the best
Is it just me, or is this guy’s intros and editing got more intense and action-packed?
Awesome overview, Pairs. I'm aging myself here, but I remember the old Delta Force games replicating shooting with both eyes open by presenting the reticle on the right side of the screen. It could be cool seeing that implemented here (maybe including an option to select whether one/two eyes are open?)
I was about to suggest the same thing about ballistic protection. A low time to kill is *not* a requirement as long as you have sufficient attrition systems that give hits a long-term outcome on the flow of combat so they must be respected. You can of course go too far in the opposite direction to the point that the attrition becomes insignificant, but it gives you a lot more room to tweak. Unlike COD Warzone, additional players cannot be carried on your person, so it would add an additional layer of logistics so the changes made to infantry have ripple effects to other roles as well
I remade the whole damage system for infantry combat back in the days of PR just for the purpose of my events with a very detailed kinetic energy drop-off work that was made by a DEV at that time... Instead of doing the simple "rifles take 3 shots to the body, pistols do X" and so on, I rather reversed the idea and assigned specific damage taken (point blank) and the effect of impact to the capability of the soldier. Game has 3 levels of health: Healthy 100-50%, Bleeding 50-10% and Severely Injured 10-0%. Healthy has no side effect, bleeding overlays a bloodied filter to impair vision somewhat and keeps dropping health, severely injured has a black and white extremely distorted overlay, heavy coughing and inability to sprint. I believe I moved these values to be 100-65, 65-30, 30-0 or thereabouts. So I adjusted the damage of every projectile to achieve a desired result, for instance: 9mm pistol on the armor did around 15% so it took 3+ shots to the chest to "feel" a thing. Now a shot with 9mm to the arm did about 45% and thus immediately pushing you into a bleeding situation what you had to remedy it, otherwise you would soon drop in the last stage and be completely combat ineffective. Based on common sense, it's harder to operate a rifle accurately when you only have one arm operational so I had to utilize any gameplay elements, albeit very basic and unrealistic, to achieve the desired outcome. Thanks to the severe damage dropoff of the 9mm, the effective range was very low and a distant arm shot could only take about 5% off, which theoretically simulated grazes and flesh wounds over long distances since there was no weapon sway, sight alignment and no detailed hitboxes.
If it's possible with a 20yo game, Squad could easily implement extreme sway if shot in the arm and not treated, or the inability to sprint if shot in the legs, etc.
Thanks for this. A good breakdown of the update. My tuppence worth (opinion) is that having actually been under enemy fire I can assure you that you do not want to be sticking your head up and scanning around for the enemy shooter while bullets are flying around. We have all seen the shooter who sticks his gun up over his head to shoot back from behind cover. It's not effective in terms of hitting someone but it does return fire i.e. suppression and keeps your head out of harm's way. I am not advocating this style of shooting just demonstrating the effect of suppression on the enemy. Winning a firefight does not mean killing everyone, it means suppressing them so they are not shooting at you. This is conducive to good teamwork as your fire team suppresses and the rest of the squad moves in for the kill. I watched SF train at the gun range at Baghdad Airport back in 2004 and it was exactly that. Suppress the enemy while moving in to kill them. Impressive and scary to watch. Now imagine a 30mm auto-cannon shooting at you, jeez! Ballistic protection is a good call so long as it doesn't turn you into Superman. Someone with body armor should stand a slim chance of surviving a hit than someone (Insurgents) without. You might go down for a while but come back unharmed. This should only be relevant to the torso or headshots where a ballistic vest or helmet might, and I say might, save the day.
Six days in fallujah’s suppression + checking for wounds system simulates the fire superiority experience you’re talking about perfectly and prolongs fights in a way that feels ridiculously stressful.
Interested to hear what you thought of test #2. I'm glad they're testing as much as they are for sure!
Since we have PIP scopes now... what if the sights or ADS be aligned a bit on the right side of the screen with a slight tilt to the right as well( since the game is right hand bias anyway). and allow the left portion of the screen to remain as standard view, gotta keep that peripheral view right. The gun game system does it thing and the stock is not in the players teeth but right where it should be the shoulder/chin area. It'd definitely be different and trippy at first but players can adapt right
I'd honestly really like to see that. Would be cool.
Great video. Explaining things with a strong evidence like your real life experience was a good move for people who thinks everything in this update represents real life perfectly. Although i stand with PT1, i 100% feel and agree with your opinions. Hopefully devs address these things to the point where every people enjoy the update.
What they are admititng to doing is why I left Insurgency, which at first had fantastic mechs but went fully arcade imo. I think I'll finally grab Squad next sale. Been missing the feel. Thanks for the info man.
Exactly in the same boat! Insurgency's core concept is so golden, but them going more casual completely pushed me away, it's such shame. I already own Squad but never bothered to really get into it, but very excited to try it once this update goes live.
I'm honestly more hyped for the future of squad as OWI has somehow been possesed to create the best pvp milsim shooter now. I feel the infantry overhaul may just be the start, as it paves the way for more realism features down the road. maybe a vehicle overhaul where crewmembers can get "stunned" or "blackout" when hit with an rpg. maybe even outright de-crew a vic as a way to nerf the vehicle heavy gameplay squad will invetiavely gravitate towards.
I agree about the vehicles when they get hit. That first hit on a tank may have killed half the crew! A lot of ammunition is designed to kill the crew and not necessarily blow up the tank. The same can be said for just getting injured so you have to retreat and heal up.
you shot full auto under no pressure, at a flat range. I'm assuming you wasn't running 2 miles before you pulled the rifle up and fired. its situational.
You can't get a cheek weld under stress?
@@ControlledPairsGaming lmao You are comparing someone in active combat, running literal miles to you on a flat range wearing gear with your buddy’s.
It doesn’t compare.
It’s exactly why I clicked on the video because I knew it would be a Mf on a flat range.
I'm an Infantry veteran. I'm a graduate of Ranger School and spent many years in the 75th Ranger Regiment. I''ve spent a great deal of time overseas. I don't lead with that information because it's cringe af.
But I have moved many miles in kit in austere environments and still executed marksmanship fundamentals. I think shooting in Squad should be difficult. But the stock should always be trapped in your shoulder, since that is possible even when you're tired.
*Edit*
I don't have footage from overseas, but I have shared footage from the Tactical Games and some stress shoot stuff. Those competitions are excellent examples of smoked shooters being egregiously affected by fatigue, yet managing a cheek/stock weld.
@@kiingchunk502holy mother of cringe
Infantry veteran here... sight misalignement absolutely happens with all optics and firearms, it is also caused by sway.
Recoil affects the same axis as sway due to the fact that they both affect the same thing.. your arms.
Now misalignment isnt properly portrayed in the ICO because it doesnt originate at the shoulder for anything with a stock, but you get misaligned further down the weapon due to sway and recoil.
Overall the ICO misalignment effects are better than no misalignment at all, but they should make it so that the rear of the rifle stay in the same location. Recoil can then pivot on the stock and not further forwards in the rifle like they have now
Also an Infantry/SOF veteran. I'd be fine with a recoil pattern that induces misalignment further down the rifle rather than at the shoulder. I think shifting the axis down the gun is going to reduce the amount of misalignment inherently (because geometry). The weird floaty stock just ain't it.
I am loving the general concept they are going for even if it isn't 100% there yet.
You've got some good solutions in there. I particularly like the idea of adding ballistic protection. I've seen a lot of instances of sidearm rounds, especially doing a bit more than they should on carrier covered areas.
Also that AK at about 15 min was lookin hot. Lol
wouldn't be fair to non NATO factions tho
@@tfwwhennofitlitgf3300Aren't those factions already technically disadvantaged but balanced out in some way?
Firstly, as much as i agree it's a risk to alter core game mechanics i dont think you're giving credit to how much this update has reeled new or existing players to Squad. I think there's some good evidence this IS having a very positive retention effect. In MoiDawg's video he showed peak numbers, the highest theve been in Squad's entire lifecycle and having to decrease servers availability because he received thousands of connections to the playtest server. It has triple the amount of players of any public test to date.
Agree with the rest of the points, do you think they could have more front hand deviation, simulating a tired arm effect sorta?
I'd be down with more pronounced sway so long as it doesn't cause egregious misalignment. And this update is stirring a lot of interest. The question will be whether or not it sticks. I hope it does.
@@ControlledPairsGaming Sway and sight misalignment are linked. With the new PiP scopes, if the front hand sways, the scope will misalign. You should switch to red dots / holo scopes if the ACOG misalignment bothers you. It's an elegant balancing mechanism desperately needed to prevent 4x scopes being the only useful attachment.
Pretty sure those player numbers were for the test servers. Not the base game
This is a very tough spot. It's fair to say "hey this gunplay is all over the place the stock doesn't move into your mouth magically" but at the same time how else would you get the inaccuracy, like the one in Playtest 1 that was needed to make the firefights last longer?
Playtest 1 was good in a sense that the firefights lasted long which brings with it immersion and I would argue a lot of realism when comparing firefights between Squads in real life. It's been pointed out that there should be a way to achieve this without fucking over the gunplay... but how? Do we even have any idea?
I'm finally playing in one of the overhaul games and Holy shit.. getting suppressed is a whole different feeling lol. I actually felt like I needed to back up from a fire fight from what I was seeing off the screen.
I would like to point out that the misalignment issue is also due to the fact that the POV in a FPS is a gun almost under the shooters chin as opposed to offset in a shoulder that the head comes down and cheek welds to. I think to fix the over recoil/ it breaking cheeks and shoulder weld they would have to move the gun off center line and simulate the head coming down over the stock. Its hard to make a playable and realistic game
I'd actually be eager to see a game offset the weapon and make ADS cause a head shift. Could be cool
Guys im 90% sure karma and controlled pairs are either the same person
I'm older. He is of my flesh. We cloned him to be the ultimate MILSIM gamer, to speak truth to toxicity, and to generally make Squad bois twitch with rage.
Recoil could have maintained the rotational recoil with vector from muzzle with modest amount of camera recoil. They could look at Roblox games such as Phantom Forces to get the idea of more realistic recoil and tone it to their liking. Not to mention, sway and recoil combined ingame are already harsh enough.
The picture in picture is good enough, to do what I believe you are trying to explain they would have to add a feature to toggle focus between the sights and the environment in front. You can’t focus on both the sights and the environment down range at the same time (unless you’re some mutant human). You have to focus down range, then focus on the target through whatever sight you’re using with your dominant eye, then refocus back down range. You can see down range when focusing through the sights but you’re not going to be able to tell much unless you focus down range because it is blurry.
Free look should blur the scope and make clear the peripheral
Overall the update is great but sometimes it still feels like you play someone who has never held a rifle before and not a trained soldier.
This, wish more of the devs had military backgrounds or took some basic 1-2 week shooting course to actually know what shooting is like
I think the misalignment is only justified if you're under supression, have 0 stamina left or is using a heavy weapon while standing. If that doesnt make firefights long enough, they can make deaths more punishing so people take their time, instead of rushing all the time.
Dude in the intro (from RL footage) looks like he's rocking that plate carrier on top of his underpants.
Lol that's me. The NVG clip? That's a dangler not the plate bag.
So I left Squad a while ago (I think it was when they started pushing the emotions DLC), thinking that maybe devs are losing sight of what makes Squad... Squad, add on top of that the horrendous optimization that the game has. Fast forward today, with this influx of Infantry Overhaul thingy, I'm poised to step back in and enjoy the game once again. I feel like they're trying to step back on the same track they've been doing and I'd be damned if I don't see how the game plays now myself.
i think all they need to do is tame down how much the gun moves around while shooting i do like the bounce of the weapons in full auto
Project reality already has all these features and im glad squad is starting to add these features
I think the problem with the sway and recoil is that it affects the rear of the firearm.. they should focus more on the front like making the sight/barrel go up but the camera is in place.
I'd be interested to see what that looks like.any significant deviation of sight picture is going to be jank, tho.
It seems that the squad's weapon handling nowadays is the same as in virtual reality games, only the hands hold the weapon, with only 2 attachment points on the rigid body and not 3 including the shooter's shoulder
So my humble opinion:
The gunplay from Play test 2 is near what we’re looking for. I think sway while fatigued could be increased a little bit across the board.
As for suppression, I think Play test 1 beats this because of the misalignment. So I believe only when you become overwhelmingly suppressed, this should occur as to implement the fear your soldier should be facing that you’re about to be shot. However, no more putting the stock in your mouth cause that’s just goofy lol. Let your gun misalign literally in any other direction and I think suppression will be golden
I think recoil should be handled as follows:
The stock is cheek welded but the front of the barrel is setup up so that the trajectory has a wider spread the farther out the target is. Like a cone. So up close the recoil will only be a small circle cross section of the cone while at range the circle will be much larger. Except instead of a regular circular cone it should be a triangle with the tip facing down. Controlling recoil means to tap shoot and stay in the bottom of the cone as it is more focused but if you mag dump then the cone widens. Hard to explain in words not pictures.
Also MOA, make it so 10 meters, 25m, 50m, 100m, and so on each have increasing levels of inaccuracy without any recoil. Like how in counter strike you can have you crosshair on someone's head but the bullet isn't perfectly accurate. Like trying to use a deagle against an AWP.
They implemented cone of fire (and as a result MOA spread) in IO.
@@ControlledPairsGaming sorry I didn't explain it well.
The recoil cone I speak of is different than the cone of fire based on ballistic trajectory. I meant that the barrel aligns to the cone. Up close (below 50 meters) the cone is narrow but widens at distance so that up close the barrel's alignment is in a narrow cross section of the cone but that barrel alignment becomes more misaligned the wider the cross section gets at distance. Like how when building something small an error in alignment is barely noticeable but if you are building a house that error becomes much more noticeable. It's hard to explain without pictures.
@@ControlledPairsGaming the recoil bounces the gun's barrel and it then lands within the cross section. Versus the traditional cone of fire where a single shot no recoil will land within the cone of accuracy.
lol, for a split second i thought that nvg footage at the start was squad gameplay and a pee'd a bit
squad devs: doing exactly what the players asked in playtest #2 and changed very little and overall being amazing devs
playerbase: I dont like this
21:06 I think that the blur is there to relieve eyes of strain.
I've been playing Insurgency Sandstorm with Picture-in-picture mode with no blur, it's very demanding for eyes and general it's not that comfortable to look at without a blur. Might be just me doe.
The newest changes in recoil look great
I understand that moving in kit for hundred of meters will affect you aim, but I feel as if the amount of wobble in optics and the recoil changes.
You may not get a perfect sight picture every time you aim at a target, moving will change how well you can hit a target (fatigue is obviously a factor in all of this), but we have to remember this IS a game. Making players ineffective at keeping their rifle steady, getting proper sight alignment in my opinion is just not the way to go about evening the level of skill involved.
There's many other games that scratch that itch for you. In my opinion this is great.
@@romrommi if youve ever used a firearm under fatigue, you will know when certain things are gimmicks, and others are applicable.
@@kolbynope3911 I've used a weapon under fatigue. Regardless I feel like the argument you gave right now is of no use to your original argument, as you were originally talking about how these changes would be too harsh for a *game*. Now suddenly you're talking about my experience with firearms under fatigue?
@@romrommi like I said before, if u have used them under fatigue, you'd know what its like.
And you'd know that your face doesn't clip through your stock when in a cheek-well. I never questioned if you have or haven't.
This review is huge, and sweats passion, thanks for sharing and voicing the hyper realism desire!!!
You and karma shows footage of target shooting. When you already faceing the target, you actualy on a steady position for shooting. Try some situational shooting, put some targets for eachother on a well obscured enviroment so the other dont know where are they, to see if you have to turn and get steady how things change. I dont have as much experience in shooting as you guys but shoot some bullets myself and know that if i have a steady posture i can confidently hit something that i cannot if i have to turn for it, at least not as fast.
Shooting at 25 yards with rifles or carbines with a good sight is realy child play, especially if you are well rested and have a calm heart rate, not to mention the stress free enviroment. There is many way to distract someone when shooting, try it out.
Oh shit thanks man, that's awesome.
From my perspective adrenaline and situation plays a big role in sturdy aim, squad is trying to simulate battle where a normal infantry man fear for his/her life, long running distances...people don't magically gain stamina after walking for few min and continue at full speed . The better solution can be that the aim sway increases when some bullets fly at your direction, if you are out of that bullet crack zone, you don't have sway penalty but fatigue penalty of play test 2.
i got another idea, what if sway penalty of suppression decrease the longer player have been alive.
One of my peeves is being able to talk while you're dead, but then people will just use discord. It's pretty lame that people can say, "right on my body, he's bandaging!". I use it too, but I wish it wasn't a thing and it's basically impossible to fix.
maybe they should make it so that your sight doesn't auto re-center after the effect of recoil and must do it yourself. just spit balling ideas here. also wonder if a thumb mouse button for low ready would be good at all. So if you hold the button not ads you move slower and ads is faster, in ads if you hold the button you slow movement and reduce sway(maybe also link it to some kind of stamina bar). When you move while ads without pressing it you have lots of sway but increased movement. I think with that clearing rooms (which necessitates movement) isn't annoying and you also wont have the run and gun crap in the open areas.
What kills coop gameplay is people being able to make out an opponent from a single pixel on screen different from others around it. How can you see opponents so far away and shoot them well dead so good??
Perhaps there should be a "cooperative enemy spotting" game mechanic so that you can't see an enemy all on your own, you depend on two or three other friends spotting your opponents WITH you, and then you can actually see where they are and kill them.
@ 00:20 Bro would be gettin screamed at and smoked tf out of...You NEVER run in front of barrels...always move behind your buddy, if possible
Keep up the content man!✌
Always!
At 18:35, perhaps I'm missing something you are saying so forgive me, this isn't trying to put you on blast.
You are suggesting that standing or kneeling without firing, assuming a good firing stance, that there is no X, Y, & Z axis "sway?" (In real life)
I know you shoot competitively along with some level of military service experience, but you dont actually believe that you can hold a rifle entirely dead on target like a weapons tripod? Most optics have a parallax correction. However, if you agree that you can not hold a rifle completely level in all planes, and you agree that as the distance from the shooter increases, the MOA increases; you then have to accept that the rifle is misaligning, but the parallax correction keeps the reticle hold true. If you are to fire, the round will go where the reticle and your zero are set.
Perhaps its your definition of 'misalignment' that I'm not on the same page with. I certainly agree with you that any misalignment or sway should not originate from the buttstock in the manner that was presented in PT1, and much lesser degree in PT2.
this is the earliest to a vid i've ever been, love the content pairs!
If you want technical realism, then I guess Tarkov has it. If you want immersion then you have to utilise various unrealistic methods to acheive it. IRL kings can travel wide and far, alas in chess he only moves by one tile. Should he be equal to queens movements for the sake of realism? Now it's up to the devs to conclude what fits best for their vision. Im intereseted to see if they stick to it or buckle under the pressure of sweaty people unfit for CSGO or will they see it through and attract the actual crowd that Squad was originally intended for. My wallet stays closed until they come to a final setting.
I think the main thing here is that targeting realism at the level you're describing isn't going to improve gameplay that results in realistic tactics. The fact is in real life, if you bleed out, you're not fighting that day. But in Squad, you can be back in 2 minutes. So we have to overcompensate for the lack of death, and make it harder than real life. How else are you going to solve it?
I understand when people talk about their capabilities in real life translating into a video game but at the same time, it is a video game. And the gameplay should come first. If, to accomplish their goals of longer firefights, they want the stock to essentially be floating, then by all means I think they should do that. There's no way to REALLY replicate the fear of dying into a video game so that needs to be spread out into other areas of the game. Suppression alone isn't going to achieve that. Beyond that some things just need to be balanced. Right now in vanilla squad there is almost no reason to use anything but a magnified optic. If there's no trade offs then that will just stay the same
Also holy fuck I swear you were just at like 10k subs. keep it up brother
I hope OWI is listening
as a less-experienced shooter, I definitely experience visual distortion or interuption similar to whats pictured. But I am not, in fact a roided US Marine, lmao. Also, some system that rotates relative to the stock weld, simulating grip/support fatigue under recoil could be pretty minty.
Nice to hear a solution to provlems instead of just ranting and saying fix it without any offers on how.
noodle arms update. real firearms dont bounce around like that. you have to keep the stock away from your shoulder in order for the weapon to bounce around like this.
If they really want realistic bullet trajectory and spread, they could try adding wind speed and direction as well rather than having an exaggerated sway and recoil.
That would be computationally costly. It adds calculations to your PC or the server. I think this is due to the engine they are using and it also does not allow for things like the destruction of buldings when you receive a massive artillery barrage.
@@hoolioh3721 exactly. They should just focus on the gameplay style they want even if it's unrealistic.
it looks soo good
the devs should only take advice from this channel. Too many opinions waters the original concept down, pairs definitely gets the original concept
As for the longer range scopes I’ve never been to Army Sniper School but I’m pretty sure they tell you to also have both of your eyes as well. If there is anyone here who has been to sniper school tell me I’m wrong here.
Some do some don't. B4s are trained to keep both eyes open if possible, but certain shooting conditions (high mirage, low light, extreme glare) may require dominant eye open and non-dominant eye closed. Either way, I'd like to see peripheral blur disappear when in free look.
The creators of geronimo just released another video, I'm hoping if you would do a video of that.
I feel like they should take an afternoon and actually go shooting before making more changes.
I think the overhaul is not purely for realism but I think it is trying to modernize the Project Reality concept, after all PR is the root of this game.
Seems a lot of people don’t understand that.
Correct
Thr ICO currently won't chsnge how the firefights playout. At first things will be longer but as players figure out how the game mechanics function they will optimise their time.
We have to remember the game is only 50v50. Yes its a big number but once you factor in logistics, armour, IFS, you are left with about 20-25 players ( depending on layer )being in sn infantry position. Between these you must allocate some for defence and some for attack.
Defence gameplay is horrible, with the addition of more armoured vics that csn fire from far away, to even the commander abilities, and now the suppression changes will kill any point of defence playing. As currently, if you set up a defence on the point you will be scouted and either, hit with an A10 that you cannot counter or artillery that you cannot counter. It takes agency away from the defenders.
Sway plus suppression is going to make defence miserable, as soon as a crow vic gets LOS your defence is done. If you manage to hold it under full suppression you'll be hit with artillery. The only agemcy a player has is on the attack. The game will change to a more ambush close range spray matches that'll end with who shoots first.
Solutuons.
Increase player count to 64v64. Yes stability is sn issue but extra players means more people to put into all roles. Fights don't end when 6 people get killed its now 8 or 9.
Remove the sway. Give agency to the player to break away from combat and find an opportunity to return fire. Opportunities are short windows, the sway mechanic makes the window incredibly small.
Reduce/remove commander abilities. Either reduce the amount these abilities csn be used. 15m for an A10 is too short. Once the match is setup its available. Move artillery into emplacements, 2 guns per team, heavy munition cost. This combined with more players creates more player agency. These weapons are usuable, can be countered, can be destroyed and require player input.
Per squad theres a lot of minor tweaks to reduce the run and gun that i could be here for hours.
I don't know what they've done with the engine in this update but I get HORRIFIC lag at the moment.
Fix misalignment, tune recoil, keep sway high, especially when hurt, transitioning through movement stages or fatigued. Fixed.
with the current squad im doing meh okay in the infantry firefight. but with this upcoming update, its very easy to see im doing TOTAL SUCK ASS in the future 😢😅😂
You and about 90% of the playerbase. I don't understand the people that think this overhaul will somehow stop them from getting killed by more skilled players. It won't, if you struggle before this overhaul and you find it "frustrating" prepare yourself to be even more frustrated when you get killed because of this mechanic they added and not your actual skill level.
People also seem to forget that Squad is a video game and therefore bound to laws of video gaming, there's only so much realism you can add before it becomes tedious and boring because, let's face it, reality sucks and we play games to escape it. Squad is already tedious enough especially if you squad lead a lot and idk about you but I hate micromanaging a squad and telling everyone to do every little thing. I just want to play the game, shoot a few dudes and have a fun time with the boys, not reenact a military fantasy or get into some kind of LARP session. If I did want to do that I'd go play games that already do it better like ARMA. People being able to hit what they are aiming at is just good for gameplay. Not being able to hit anything because of gameplay mechanics is not good gameplay, it's frustrating. That's why I don't play games like COD and BF2042, Apex Legends, etc. Those games are filled with those types of mechanics. That's why you see so many people "cheating" in those games, like the Zen with Apex so your bullets with stop blooming all over the place. Now I'm not saying the game shouldn't have difficult recoil or sway patterns, those things are fine and only add to the satisfaction of mastering it. But making the gun misalign and bullets just go randomly is terrible for gameplay and will only serve to make the game a more frustrating experience because that's all that will be left, an experience which is what your trading the gameplay for.
@@artofwar3046 bro i fkn agree with you...
Chad content
Kick the player to the que when they die. On a popular server that would make them fear death :P
Honestly... I love this 🤣
Day 1 of asking Pairs to make a video about Breachers.
I really wish my laptop could run this game. I mean it can, but barely. Looks so fun, but firefights are just too much for my old machine. One of these days.
This game is also terribly optimized, doesn't run that well even on beastly modern rigs
You could probably get a comparable or possibly even better milsim experience with the right group of people in battlebit tbh, assuming you dont care about graphics
@@yellowsaurus4895 they did announce a milsim mode coming for it later down the road.
You might wanna try project reality then
I think the discussion around the update and the game's shooting mechanics is framed entirely wrong.
Games are not real life- because they cannot be real life.
I say this not as an excuse for OWI to ruin their game and just let them do whatever they want, however, I say this because there are simply things you cannot replicate in video games, period.
there's a term in game design called "Designing for cause vs. Designing for effect", I think the terms are relatively obvious in what they mean, but if you need something to read up on there's an old article on this made by a guy called Lewis Pulsipher online- its within the context of historical wargames, but the concepts are transferrable to this game as well, i think.
So with all of that said here, why is this relevant to the infantry overhaul?
because squad's core identity, above all else, is a large-scale, drop-in PvP game that prioritizes team coordination and cohesion above individual skill, all around the shell of a Military/war-themed atmosphere and visual style with a level of verisimilitude to it, so realistic models, accurate lighting, graphics that mimic real life, etc. (it's worth noting that this is irrelevant to how the game actually plays, rather this is generally what squad should strive to be according to its developers.)
that identity, that goal they have in mind with this game seeps down into every decision they make with the game.
as I said before- games cannot be real life, they cannot recreate all the details about, in this case, all the small details of shooting a firearm. so is the added rotational recoil when shooting unrealistic? it is, period. there's no way to go around it- it's not realistic. (neither is suppression for that matter, either. You do not suddenly become a near-sighted individual when shots start landing close to you.)
however, what it ACHIEVES- gunfights ending in more shots, making them longer without raising the time to kill, and allowing for more tactical, strategic decisions to be made in the moment to moment gameplay- is conducive to what the game's identity is, which is ultimately better for the game as a whole.
TL;DR The discussion around the update is framed, almost entirely as I see it, around how "realistic" the game mechanics are. I think this is not a good way to frame the new update and how it affects the game; we cannot have our cake and eat it too. Realism cannot take precedent if it cannot produce an effect that is in line with the game's core identity (which is defined in the paragraph above). if we simplify the recoil mechanics of the current build down to what could be considered "realistic", the effect it would create would actively go against what the game is trying to be.
P.S- for what it's worth, I do think there are some game mechanics in both playtests that could be refined a bit more, but again, I just don't see how you could implement this another way that would be "more realistic" without compromising the game's core identity or break the flow of the game as a whole.
I agree that sight misalignment achieves the core design goal of prolonging fights in favor of communication and teamwork. I just think it's an inelegant solution and the community should be careful not to fall victim to novelty bias.
As I said in the video, I understand what they're trying to achieve and why they're trying to achieve it. I think there is a better way to go about it - brutal suppression, punishing sway on traditional axis, model ballistic protection etc
I've never seen real videos of actual fighters using full auto in high pressure cqb. do they even exist? Even in the recent ukraine videos of people fighting close range in bunkers its always semi automatic unless they are magdumping randomly to suppress a direction
Almost never happens. It's called for in doctrine during react to near ambush, knock out a bunker... And basically that's it. It's extremely inefficient with standard capacity magazines.
bro i wanna buy squad so badly but i feel like id be horrible considering im pretty new to mouse and keyboard
honest advice as someone who has played milsims for years- hop in a game, hop in the in-game range or an AI match and play, play, play.
Sounds stupid but just like shooting it's practice and soon enough you'll be quick and on target with mouse and keyboard.
Dude I suck at Squad. It's still a blast!
@@ItsJoKeZ thanks, i appreciate it bro im planning buying it on friday so ill be practicing arma in the meantime
You’ll be aight, they suck too.
I think it'd be a smart business decision for them to put all these new additions in a new mode, called hardcore or something. I prefer the new additions, but it'd be sad to see the dev's lose a ton of players because they don't like the new changes. I like the misalignment addition but your right that it's way to much right now. It'd be nice if when aiming downsights you had to hold shift or something to squeeze the rifle tight and control it, and maybe you can only do it for a short time.
I'm very close to pulling the trigger on this game. I've been watching you play it for a while, but I need it at that sub 20 dollar price.
It’s worth the full price. They have put a ton of work into it, constant updates. Honestly the game is worth waaayyy more than 20$.
I would save and get it, you will totally get your money worth imo.
Man the backlash Karma recieved on his video from people that have never even held a firearm was crazy. Playtest #1 almost felt as though the character model was rolling his wrists while holding the weapon. And don't get me started on what it was like to fire the M249 or M240 in that playtest. With my background in a heavy weapons platoon I almost had an aneurysm trying to make sense of the recoil and sight alignment choices.
I like where they went, just not how they got there.
I hereby declare this video ‘based’.
I complained about some of this on another video about this and got called a fortnite player so glad someone else had similar feelings. Play test 2 looked way better
It looks alsome
its unfair to compare basic grunt with a actual shooter its just not the same
But I'm an Infantryman.
I think you are way too optimistic about recoil handling and way too confident of your opinion. Your argument is based on a flat shooting range with minimal gear and modded rifle where you shoot still targets while having fun with friends. Then you state it's 100% transferrable to war scenario, where ppl actually try to kill you, you're pinned and constrained by lots of equipment, almost deaf from the noise and often in a weird position on uneven ground. I've done my share of firearms training, own guns, played plenty airsoft games for the last 10+ years and I find shaky hands way more believable when playing as shaken infantry grunt than Trex arms style high speed low drag style operating with maximum recoil control. I feel you simply want to make the gunplay easier so "cool YT content" is easier to make on a regular basis
Again with the muh cheek weld. In all of these "the stock is in your mouth" critiques, stamina is below 30%. Yes, it's not a perfect depiction of realism, but if you're exhausted from sprinting in a firefight, having severe misalignment is a way of simulating a poor cheek weld on the move. Punishing run and gun with unrealistic misalignment is perfectly fine. Realistic firefights last entire days, with thousand of rounds being exchanged. Fuck the cheek weld, gimme long firefights. If you want realism, go volunteer in Ukraine.
Tried war. Don't recommend it. There are more elegant design solutions to prolong firefights. Shame you jumped on the first solution presented, despite it's obvious shortcomings, and decided to make it your personality.
The developers should consider making sway brutal at low stamina and under suppression without the gimmicky sight misalignment. It's a solution that achieves what you describe above (and what we all want), without the cringe.
@@ControlledPairsGaming Weapon sway and sight misalignment are inextricably linked due to how the new point-shooting system works. The only cringe I see is how Squad community is plagued with tacticool operators whom want perfect gun handling, but miss the forest for the trees. The severe sight misalignment at low stamina was a novel mechanism for punishing run and gun.
"Inextricably linked due to how the new point shooting system works." Correct. They are linked. I'm unsure how this is an effective argument as to why sight misalignment should be preserved.
Cringe? We all want the same thing, longer firefights, teamwork, communication. Some of us would like to preserve authenticity, as well. I think it's possible to achieve both.
There's no doubt low stam misalignment was a novel concept to punish run and gun. It's an extremely creative solution! However being creative and novel doesn't make it a good solution.
Squad's community isn't plagued with nearly as many tacticool cringelords as it is with toxic gamers. 'Go fight in Ukraine' is a rough first impression, but oh-so in brand for Squad's playerbase.
@@ControlledPairsGaming Re: go fight in Ukraine, don't take it personally. I'm making the point that it's a videogame, and thusly not a perfect depiction of reality.
Re: sway + sight misalignment being preserved - your argument was that sway should be brutal at low stamina (agree), without the gimmicky sight misalignment (disagree). My point was that they are linked, and you can't have both while the PIP scopes and point-shoot mechanics stand now. I suppose they could have the players POV sway in sync with the weapon sway, to simulate the characters eye maintaining cheek weld behind sight... but frankly, the sight misalignment was a beautiful way to nerf ACOG's and buff irons and red dots. Realism be damned. And head sway causes people to be nauseous so dev's avoid it.
Re: toxic Squad players - I don't play Squad, it's an arcade shooter in its current iteration. I played a lot of PR in the 2000s, and saw first hand what innovative design can produce regarding immersion, despite sacrificing "gun-handling realism" in favor of "firefight realism". If Squad can achieve PR level firefight immersion, then I'm in. But the overhaul needs teeth. I don't want tiny incremental changes so as to not scare off current Squad players.