Why 'The Nightingale' Fails Where 'Wind River' Excels
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ย. 2020
- Emotional manipulation plays an important role in any storytelling medium; but the degree to which a story tries to tug on our heartstrings can make the difference between masterpiece and abject failure.
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#VideoEssay #TheNightingale #WindRiver - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
I think you've really missed the mark with your take on The Nightingale. I thought it was a thoughtful, engaging film which masterfully used the form to speak about violence and its repercussions. I never once took it to be trying to be completely period-accurate, but rather a work of fiction, dealing in metaphor to communicate ideas, so your issue with Clare's ideations seems silly to me. If you want pure period accuracy, you might go read a textbook (though even that will have skewed reality somewhat). Meanwhile, the fact that Clare's revenge "isn't tangible" is exactly the point of the story, as it is literally about her growing beyond the desire for violence, recognizing that violence and justice are not the same thing. So, another botched critique.
As for your statement that the film is "misery porn," well, I won't even justify that tired notion with a response, aside from saying that the kinds of violence depicted on screen are in fact toned down from the actual legacy left by colonialism, and so it sounds to me like you'd prefer historical erasure more than having tough out some actual brutality in your movies. Just because something makes you genuinely feel miserable doesn't make it misery porn--violence is awful, and any truly good depiction of it is going to make you feel that way.
In terms of race issues, I do actually agree The Nightingale isn't perfect, but not for the reasons you say. I think that instead focusing predominantly on Clare's perspective, the film could have been entirely told from Billy's. That would have been a bolder way to take things, instead of narratively sidelining him in favor of Clare's arc. Despite this, I still the think the film handles his character sensitively and with grace. The fact he dies in the end makes sense to me, because, on screen, he has been our primary representation of the indigenous peoples of Tasmania, and so his death comes to represent the genocide of those peoples by the British Empire. His revenge plot line, meanwhile, is in no way simply motivated by his learning that his last family members are dead. Billy has been tormented by the British all his life (which he talks about much earlier in the film, in case you missed it) and his act of killing Hawkins and Ruse thus stems from that lifetime of oppression, as well as his friendship with Clare, who he wants to protect from future suffering. Clare leaves Hawkins alive because that is where her arc has brought her, and Billy kills him because that's where his arc has brought him.
And as for Hawkins: There are really people like him, you know. Kent and her colleagues did a lot of research into the psychology of rapists, and based Hawkins on their findings. He is not an exaggerated picture of misogyny, racism, and the hunger for power, but rather a crystal clear one. Men like him are not uncommon, and especially under circumstances where systems of power provide outlets and impunity for their behavior. Hawkins also function as symbol of the British Empire and colonialism as a whole. In my opinion, this is actually really impressive character work. He is both humanly real and metaphorically rich.
On the topic of Wind River, I don't think it handles certain issues very well. For instance, however much it wants to comment on sexual and racial violence, it is still told through the perspective of a heroic white savior, thus perpetuating harmful tropes in film. It also is really comfortable conflating (as you yourself do) violence with justice, another tired trope.
Anyways, those are my thoughts, which you asked for.
P.S. The Nightingale *does* have objectively better shot composition and cinematography, as well as staging. It has a genuine understanding an appreciation for mise en scene which a lot of contemporary cinema (including Wind River) totally lacks.
"It is still told through the perspective of a heroic white savior, thus perpetuating harmful tropes in film."
This logic undermines all the effort movies like Green Book and Schindler's List put into crafting their characters and stories in favor of pointing out race dynamics instead. Film is an art. Sacrificing quality in order to placate people's adherence to cultural trends is not art, it's propaganda.
"Clare leaves Hawkins alive because that is where her arc has brought her"
No shit. "The story is written the way it is written" is not a defense of bad writing.
"Just because something makes you genuinely feel miserable doesn't make it misery porn"
In the video I praise A Clockwork Orange and Eyes Wide Shut as shock art - I would extend that idea to films that try to make the viewer feel "genuinely miserable." The problem is that The Nightingale is gratuitous in its depiction of trauma. Something that A Clockwork Orange and Eyes Wide Shut managed to avoid decades earlier.
"...as it is literally about her growing beyond the desire for violence, recognizing that violence and justice are not the same thing."
What made you believe this? What lip service is given to the difference between justice and revenge in the film? Everything we see plays more prevalently into a message of female empowerment, especially when Clare confronts Hawkins in the pub.
"He is not an exaggerated picture of misogyny, racism, and the hunger for power, but rather a crystal clear one."
I won't disagree with you on this. It would be more fitting to call Hawkins an amalgamation of horrible character traits instead of an actual character.
"If you want pure period accuracy, you might go read a textbook (though even that will have skewed reality somewhat)."
Not period accuracy, internal consistency. Clare is a second class citizen right up until the plot needs all the men in the pub to quietly watch as she sings to the man who raped her...
She has no agency until this scene and it comes out of nowhere. That is not a matter of historical accuracy but writing quality.
The best films can balance their narrative and themes.
The Nightingale is the type of pretentious and indulgent film to fool you into believing it's good.
@@LUMOSHROOM The second you tried to wield Green Book of all films as an example of making any kind of insightful commentary on race, I knew this wasn't going to be a fruitful conversation. Oh well. That probably comes off as purely ad hominem, but truly, if that's what you think of that movie then I have no way of discussing the art of film with you.
I will say that the dichotomy you draw between art and propaganda is foolish. As George Orwell once said, "All art is propaganda." What matters is whether that propaganda is in favor of social change or stagnation. The Nightingale is having an important, uncommon conversation on violence, and if you saw only "trendy" political agendas in it, then that is because you went looking for them, and them alone.
@@MercuryGirl33 George Orwell was a brilliant mind and I love his ideas but that quote about propaganda is purely semantic.
Art can convey a message. Propaganda can convey a message. They are not the same thing.
You cannot accuse me of looking for specific ideas in the Nightingale after having fabricated a theme of distinguishing justice from revenge in the film.
I did not go looking for certain ideas in the Nightingale. I enjoyed the film until I noticed them.
Ad hominem is when you attack someone's character instead of their argument. What you did was not ad hominem. You didn't even make an argument, opting to take the easy way out and not explain what's wrong with Green Book.
I could've taken the easy way out and disregarded all of your points because of that one "heroic white savior" point. But that's the difference between us. Oh well.
"...but truly, if that's what you think of that movie then I have no way of discussing the art of film with you."
This is real contrarian hours.
Talking about racism. Why do you need label the leads of the movies
as “white saviors?”
If they were black would you call them “black saviors?” Or “Asian saviors”
or “Mexican saviors?”
Of course not because that would be racist.
But as long as racism is directed at white people it’s perfectly ok.
As a Caucasian I find the term “white savior” offensive.
As if being white is such a bad thing.
Why can’t a hero just be the hero without being defined by what color they are?
@@shadowman2192 In the narrative of Wind River the entire plot is based around the cases of MMIW and Indigenous issues, something that is severely under represented and talked about. There’s even very sparse indigenous representation in media. To further this point, the woman who plays Natalie in the film isn’t even played by a native actress. To have a film be solely based entirely on Indigenous issues that we have been trying to bring attention to for years and have the main heroins played by two white people is disappointing and lazy.
Despite how tragic Wind River is every time It's shown on TV I have to sit down and watch it, it's so captivating in how it handles such a tragic story with the proper nuance and subtlety, it also has one of the most tense standoffs in cinema history, frankly several actors in this movie deserve a reward for their performances.
I'm not familiar with Nightingale but from what I have seen here I can see it does seem to lack the subtly and nuance of Wind River, and the bad guy feels more like a caricature of an ridiculously evil person rather than a real person.
Wind River has been in my top 10 for years.
"The Nightingale" for me represents perfectly what you talked about during your introduction with films having you experience emotions or circumstances that you might not normally experience. Of course I have fantasized about committing violence upon others in fits of rage or revenge, but that film took my fantasized bloodlust to a whole new level. I understand that after she murdered the Ensign that she lost of her stomach for vengeance and realized it did nothing to ease her pain. My wife and I having a daughter that is more precious than anything not only cheered that the Ensign suffered before he died, we had discussions for weeks after the film on what would have been more satisfying death scenes for him. My wife is very emotionally warm, generous, and adhores violence, but she never once shut down the discussions as they became more vile and hellish. The act of slamming a baby against a wall because her crying was "distracting", dehumanized him in our eyes. Rarely has a fictional character elicited such passionate hatred, especially being that he was just a weak willed lacky of the main villian.
I've watched two of your vids, I'm hooked, and looking forward to more.
The Nightingale is yet another modern movie inserting modern ideals into a historical context where they neither make sense nor ring true.
I FREAKING LOVE Wind River, despite half watching it only once with mobile phone distractions at hand and having recorded some of it when it got gripping and rewatching what I'd taped. I've never seen The Nightingale, but doubt very much I could ever, EVER love it.
I really loved Wind River
I liked this. However, I haven't watched Wind River before (but I will now). I also do not know much about Native Americans.
But I am Australian. I found The Nightingale quite tame compared to what truely happened during Australia's convict era. That time period was brutal for both the convicts and the indigenous australians.
Also, the director of The Nightingale (Jennifer Kent), is known for making horror and traumatic movies.
I ripped you a new one on your Kubrick breakdown. This was very thoughtful and interesting. The Nightingale is an example of what many movies are suffering from lately: shoehorning wokeness into a good idea only to ruin it. You don’t have to preach morality to the audience. People are smart enough to understand right and wrong.
Great breakdown! Honestly your among the best I've seen doing these types of breakdowns! I hope the channel blows up soon!
This is a great video. I think the points that you were making are dead on.
Great content!!
Excellent!
But your points in this video are valid, you are a great content creator
Great work!
One thing that I would like to suggest is that you be careful not to repeat the points you make too often. I felt like much of the video was spent reassuring the audience of the same core themes of your essay when it had already been clearly established.
Additionally, though I don't want to encroach on your style, is the speed of your delivery. I think you could benefit a lot from more effective use of pacing and emphasis; in particular, by helping your audience become more immersed in your narrative.
Overall though, your arguments were very intelligent, your audio was excellently mixed, and your use of clips were effective. You have a lot of potential in this genre, however you also need to think about how you plan to establish a brand for your channel. Without a unique brand you won't be likely to take off.
(Also, for context, this is the first video I've seen of you-as such, these are my first impressions)
cant agree more
Nice work on this video
Very strange comparison. I liked both movies. Though, neither were particularly enjoyable in a sense.
I hit like for the bumper let alone
Wind River was just better.....from the way it was filmed, storyline, action sequences, length.....just facts.
I think if Matt was a bit more rig-pig alpha, it would have made his sacrifice _more_ important. The conflict would then be about something more fundamental and moral, than niceness verses rapist. It would have been a good way to subtly hint at the grander implications of chauvinism. Or getting down to the fascistic concept of _Basic human decency._
All said, the trio of films this director made are a tall glass of water after crossing the desert of pedophiles...I mean bad movies.
Also, your take on _Eyes Wide Shut_ is the best I’ve seen on TH-cam. And I have watched every minute of Eye Wide Shut analysis. Don’t forget about the missing 16 minutes though.
Damn it. Corrected the spelling of desert and lost my ❤️. ...That’s probably a good protection for creators.
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Lol me and my dad just watched this
I don't find either to be cinema greats but I'm tired of the typical yank being the savior all the time, and you just don't see many movies in Old Australia. Its nightingale for me.
The Nightingale rubbed me pretty wrong when I saw it a couple months back. Seriously who watches that crap? It just seemed constructed to elicit profound negative emotion with no reassurance of anything. Just abhorrent misery and no redeeming quality. Anything positive feels tacked on or out of place due to the commitment towards such a bleak and woeful tale.
The Nightingale was fantastic in my opinion. Don’t really agree with your points about it. Don’t really know what the deal is.
He's basically saying that the movie is trying too hard
At the moment, I'm not caring who you are, you are an incredibly gifted individual if you are the researcher and writer. Hollywood and its fans are not important enough for you. You should be analyzing ancient texts, or royal court playwrights, or something. Shakespeare, perhaps, idk I could prob use some of your insights on my current thought vectors, haha. peace
That is insanely kind but I really am a simple guy. I make the videos I want to make and I believe that being passionate about your work is necessary to making it good.
One thing about the Nightingale.... Even though it is, as you say, 'misery porn', and lacking of a considered narrative, do the events of the film have any realistic basis to them. Was it a common for many women to experience these events in the time and place? Was self disregarding vengeance, maybe, more expected or likely, to be a person's response to evil? And if all this were somehow present, would it give the film more respectability, maybe somewhat justifying the 'misery porn' as a vehicle to, well, get the point across. lol. I haven't even seen it. But, I guess I'm inspired, you are impressive, and I am rarely impressed by people.(Not that my special opinion would matter;))
Peace
I think you should acknowledge in another video, the harmful elements of the film Wind River. In particular the portrayal of indigenous people being unable to help themselves, and that they need the assistance of white people
I'm sorry that that is the message you got from Wind River.
I see no reason to entertain that notion though - seems silly.
@@LUMOSHROOM I would say it’s a fair point, the Native people in the film are unable to help themselves. None of the natives are the main character in the movie dedicated to them, the message of the film is that us Natives living in Wind River need help from the FBI
@@LUMOSHROOM it is long but I recommend you watch this. It was made by a Northern Arapaho from Wind River. It’s an important perspective
th-cam.com/video/Ld6S4yEOJ7o/w-d-xo.html