Fallout As A Work Of Art
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 มิ.ย. 2024
- I talk about viewing Fallout as a piece of art, which means that it is interpreted and enjoyed differently by different people, and that's ok.
Videos I reference:
Games As Art (and thoughts on the Fallout TV Show): • Games As Art (and thou...
The Missing R&D Department: • The Missing R&D Depart... - เกม
If Fallout was only entertainment I wouldnt miss the cave rat 10 times before dying
Best part of my morning routine is watching these videos as soon as they come out
I get them in the afternoon so I can listen on the walk home from work lol
Same
Same
I watch them either in my last hour at work or in the bus on my way back home.
TH-cam almost turned into TV for me. Cain On Games on weekdays, Corridor Crew on Saturday. Next up - How It's Made: quests and dialogues in Creation Kit.
It's how I start my workday! Some words of inspiration from Tim! Love it!
"murder hobo goes woohoo!"
Nate The Rake: *nods approvingly*
I think one of the Best things about BG3 is the 'Dark Urge' Origin it's a case where even Murder Hobos can have a story arc.
I think I'd genuinely love to just sit in a room and talk fallout with this guy for hours and never get bored.
You mean listen. Tim is the real life Deckard. Stay a while and listen!
I misread the title as "fallout IS a work of art" and I was like, damn right it is!
I blame Roger Ebert for why people to this very day don’t take games seriously as an art form
Ebert thought that Die Hard, a clockwork orange, starship troopers and Alien were all mediocre action films and thought Speed 2 cruise control and Anaconda were masterpieces of cinema
Yea, I'm still dumbfounded as to why we have to gravitate to a person to tell us whether something is good or not. Entertainment is nuanced, it's different for everybody. Makes no sense to depend on whether someone gives a "thumbs up" or "thumbs down". Damaged the entertainment industry as a whole, I agree.
He loved the way movies were made during his childhood. He didn't really like the pace or dialogue in most movies that were made when he was an adult. Nostalgia is powerful.
So I get this. He enjoys
Film that treat action as pure entertainment and don’t pretend to be something more
Alien is a good example. It’s a lot more than just a monster chasing people around a house. He didn’t appreciate how it crossed genres. I don’t blame him for that but he was trying to look at what he thought the movie was providing to the audience. Alien makes you think about a lot more than the base narrative and doesn’t give you answers.
He’s not wrong but ultimately movies are subjective entertainment
like Tim Said in the video everyone’s interpretation’s wrong and at the same time means no one right. While I don’t wanna diss Roger Ebert since I do kinda like him, but he was just a film enthusiast who had street cred because he introduced American audiences to foreign movies in the 50’s or 40’s. That guy was squired into movies.
Trying to show an old guy like that a developing medium that’s still finding its voice today, he’s not gonna take it serious. He’s not right for saying that not just because “interpretations” but also any median of art by its bare minimum needs to give an expression of an emotion. Any gamer could list dozens of games that elicit an emotional response even its just joy or fun.
Movie critics have really bad taste in films in general.
This channel has really changed my perspective on a lot of game development. I used to have this idea of programming as a very technical, stagnant thing. I now understand that creativity can go a long way with writing code.
These videos are always a treat. I've been putting together a campaign for Modiphius' Fallout 2d20 TTRPG and they've been such a great source of inspiration
id love to be involved in that
Nice! I’ve been working on my own one shot using the Arcane Arcade/XP to Level 3 version, I hope yours goes well!
It's a rite of passage for any RPG player to do a murder hobo run in their favorite games where the only moral choice is kill order.
I've played RPGs for over a decade now, and for some reason I haven't done a Murder Hobo/Lord Death yet.
Thanks to your comment, I will absolutely make a Murder Hobo character lol
fallout (one) is my favorite game as a work of art, time limit included
Your thumbnails are a work of art
I appreciate how he’s almost always pulling a face in them but you can tell it’s genuine and not just the (:O) look everyone does for clickbait
I love the thumbnails. they have genuine fun behind them
Hah, I find I tend to resent being forced into the main story (looking at YOU Preston Garvey) and prefer to explore the whole map and find stuff out for myself.
And I miss the option to have different beginnings as different characters, because have to pick the man looking for his lost son or the woman is not particularly different in the end.
I found a good solution to dealing with Preston. I walked away from him when I didn't want to talk with him, and then I did my own thing.
I love this way of thinking of it. Video games are art -- a collaborate work of art between both the developer, and the player. The interactivity of video games allows for a form of artistic expression no other medium can do to the same extent, and I think that's really wonderful.
Tim your shirt is absolutely glowing! Are you sure it’s safe to wear 😅
What is art is extremely subjective. It's also the relm of gatekeeping. I was in highschool during the late 90s. My art teacher was a former hippie who had strong opinions about what art was. He fellt that anyone who was told what to create was not a true artist. Basically, if you created art for a corporation you could not be a real artist. I was obsessed with comic books at the time so we would debate the topic often. Overall he was a great person who I learned a lot from. We never came to an agreement about this topic.
Oh, hi Tim! Thanks for posting. Saving for lunch time
Art IS entretaining. Also, have you ever thought of Fallout (or some other game for that matter) as way of educating people? I literally learned english to play the game, and learned more about the lenguage as I played it, not only slang or idioms but of good old Shakespeare’s fav itself. Also it was the first time that any media (I was 13 by the time Fallout came out) sent me thinking about morality, choice and consequence.
Talking about how game developers viewed games more as "toys" in the 90s and how games are now considered "art" today would be a fantastic topic to maybe deep dive into. Games are a art, a science, a sport , and a toy all at the same time. I feel like esports and multiplayer design is often overlooked when discussing games as an artform. Back in the day, there was no consideration of the artform. Now, I feel sometimes the art form is too in the focus and we ignore the "play" and "sport" aspects of games. Maybe a potential topic to talk about! Interactive media has limitless potential and covers so many facets of human expression and understanding, it's hard to fully say it's just "art" or just "math" or just "sport". Super interesting stuff that I found isn't often discussed, the point of player expression becoming how the game expresses itself as art was execellent. Loved the video as always.
Baldur's Gate 3 is proof that being deep and complex as well as meditative and thought-provoking can not only co-exist, but enhance the other. It's probably the game that best proves that since Final Fantasy VII.
before they've lost it entirely, electronic arts made a name for themselves in the 80s by promoting artistic potential of games. play and style are inseparable.
To me Fallout was and is a work of art, in how the world is built. How the characters living in that world are built. How the lore around that world is built. It feels like a great book, a whole concept where everything has its place and reason, other than waiting for player to show up to give it a reason to exist.. Newer establishments feel to me more like hollywood B movies. Tim, you really are Deckard of the current era. I'll always stay a while and listen.
Fallout is an IP that I hold dearly to my heart. I hold it as art, and for me it can be deeper than that. For as bad as the wasteland may look, or how horrid the living conditions may seem, deep down Fallout, at least for me is a place of dreams.
When I play it each time, it feels like a new step, in a new life, following a new dream. At times I have been a murder hobo, other times I was the wasteland savior, then there were certain moments where my character was a scientist doing their best to learn from the mistakes of the past. In the end, those creations all revolved around the dream of living in the wasteland with the people there.
For me Fallout is one of those games that I can step back into it time and time again and have a great experience. Be it Fallout 1, 2, 3, New Vega, 4, or even Tactics. The Fallout IP just has this magical feel, a feel of just wait you said Tim, art.
Nothing screams "art" more than labeling everything as "intellectual property" that doesn't even belong to the actual artists. /s
I blame Disney/Marvel for this shift in language where everything is an IP now which doesn't benefit the consumer nor the artist. We as fans and consumers should stop using this language.
I fully agree :) theres something so special about the world of fallout I find myself daydreaming about it for hours... truly enchanting
Absolutely. I've enjoyed all I've played from the first to fourth. Including the 1.5 mod and many others. And it's too rare to find people who like all of the games, rather than just their one or two games. 1 started it all, 2 expanded on it with more choices, characters, locations, and tons of dialogue, 3 had a great atmosphere, exploration, and a vault-exit scene that kicks the same scene in BotW down the cliff, NV added proper factions, and 4 made the combat feel good in first person and a great equipment customisation system, including the power armour (and people have spent thousands of hours in the settlement system without even completing the game). Didn't play Tactics, though.
Hey Tim, would you be willing to have Leonard Boyarsky back for an interview on his thoughts about the Art style and themes with the modern Fallouts and TV show? While I enjoy the Fallout TV series and modern games, I'm still more of a fan of Fallout 1.
Society would be infinitely better if everyone introduced themselves with “hi everyone, it’s me, [name]”
"Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. [continue the famous quote from The Princess Bride]"
Roger Ebert, someone who expressed openly that video games cannot be art, is rolling in his grave right now.
So strange to really logically look at videogames and be able to believe that. It has more science to it than a movie, because not only are you trying to reach certain story telling standards and how characters weave into the story, but also the mechanics of gameplay, the flow, how it feels. I feel like in the future there will be an elaborate formula just like there was for movies
And all that together, is art
Murder Hobo needs to be a new indie game. There's a vision in that name. 🤣
Its an old term. I do agree its a good one
postal.
@@VM-hl8ms Touche.
I would say any game that is developed with passion and isn't afraid to take risks is a work of art. On the other hand there are games that feel safe, cookie cutter, with their developers calling them "products" with "content", their players being referred to as "consumers" etc.
I would say most indie games (that aren't so called shovelware) are works of art, created by passionate individuals. As opposed do AAA products whose "art" and passion is hindered by risk of not selling well enough.
10/10 VIDEO I LOVE FALLOUT AS A WORK OF ART !!!!!! I love that video games are such a unique form of art the way that they can start with a base theme, story or lore the way a movie or book might, but then the player can interact with it and almost participate in the act of creation too, creating their own story (sometimes being very meaningful!!) and as you answer the games questions, it prompts you with more questions as you face the consequences of your actions, and with the ability to run through a simulation of each potential action its like an interactive way to play out and ponder big questions in a really fun way!!! I've certainly found myself just thinking about the world of fallout for hours because of this
Also, you mentioning players being forced to make choices reminded me that that's a thing I loved a lot about the Outer Worlds :D a lot of games seem to fear tough and impactful choices because they worry players will dislike being locked out of certain paths but... that's how life works.... so it was really cool having to make actual choices in TOW without knowing what would happen next, and then seeing how the world changed because of it!!! (and learning what to do better next time.... I certainly made some choices my first playthrough without fully considering what might happen and paid for it)
Man I love these videos.
regarding old as art that wasnt recognized back then.
Tim, are you aware of the euroyank Game 'Gothic' from 2001 (int. Release 2004) by Piranha Bytes. Which was way ahead for its time? If so, we'd be interested what you thought about it. :D
Games are jack of all trades media. You have trailer cinematics or in-game cut-scenes, but not on level of "hollywood" productions, which is an art of the cinematography, you have music, and some of it matches the best compositors known to us, but it's rare of course and it's not same experience as going to live performance show, and this is an art of the music, then you have graphics, great 3d designs, 2d drawings or beautiful landscapes, this is an art of painting, you have game story, dialogs, narration and some of them are as good as greatest books, this is an art of writing. In short games draw from all art media know to us, paintings, music, movies, story and combines that all together adding an unique element which is the gameplay.
Art should ask you questions- I fully agree. Thank you for this!
Thoughtful, collaborative, and multi-disciplinary creations that deeply connect with people are art?
Whaaaaat.
You are a genius. Nice way of looking at things.
@CainOnGames thanks for what you do, I've been in the game development industry since 96, every video is a delight, and always speak to my heart. When I started back in the days, I used to compare video game development to putting a bunch of painters in a warehouse and asking them to chain produce successful paints lol :D and at the time, the business was far from being where it's at right now, being above the cinema industry in terms of $$$. I was young, kind of naive, it took me a minute to grasp the whole equation of video games as a business.
Games are definitely pieces of art. I didn't watch all your videos yet, trying to catch up when I have the chance, but I had a question for you: How do you feel about the fact that more and more recent games won't run in future hardware, and how do you feel about companies like Nintendo chasing after ROM download sites and emulators? There is a whole ecosystem of fans out there basically doing the work of modern art preservation advocates, adding translation to old PS1 games to make them more accessible, and making it possible for young generations to play games from the 80s, which were critical to how the industry evolved. Do you think we should be more cautious about trying to preserve the history of old games, as much as we can, since as you said, they are Art, thus part of the human history?
Much appreciate your thoughts, keep the good work coming and thanks again for what you do!
What you've said is really important.
EG.: I loved BG3 BUT...but its really story driven and Id never fel comfortable just exploring. I always felt goaded into doing story, always felt I have to do the mains tory.
I really feel like the freedom of not being cosntraint by the main storyline is very imporatnt to me. Like lets just do sidequests (and gwent!).
Lets slow down, explore at my own pace, leisure - lets have fun with my build.
I love BG3 (already 400+ hrs), but thats what Im missing.
ANd its especially important for replayability IMO. Because at some time even if I love main story Ill just want to do whatever.
Ii is a stromg point of Fallout4 because I dont GAF about the manin story, but boy oh boy how I do like to explore :P
I put away BG3 for half a year or something, but I've picked it up again now (I mean I've got the game running at this moment). I absolutely agree about exploring; it's why I enjoyed F3 and F4 so much. But the difference compared to Fallout is that BG isn't an open world game. That holds true for the older games as well, though BG 1 and 2 are a bit closer to open world than 3.
Hi every out it's fall
Hi, out
Hi out every, fall me it’s
Thank come out
Another Tim Cain video means its going to be a good day!
This in particular was the topic of discussion with my uncles many times as a kid. Cold, black clothes wearing, numbers people vs kid me.
That's also why I keep replaying Fallout and Fallout 2 because there's always a question I havent found yet or that Ive forgotten... kinda like the psychic nullifier (again!).
Hey tim, big fan. Been wondering about your book shelf. Would you do a video showing your books or listing your favorites? ❤
Technical, organisational and financial are parts of art. Like from perspective of a traditional artist, money decides a lot of thing, including amount of effort put in, art materials one can use, also one has to work with various time constrains.
Not to mention the critical importance of technique in art.
You had me at “let players do what you want” 3 was my intro but that’s what’s had me be a fallout Stan but thank you for this beautifully ugly world where anything goes and anything can happen
It's funny you mention 3. One of the biggest complaints I've heard classic Fallout fans lob at that game is that you can't unalive children NPCs. Talk about priorities.😂
@@CinemaMack The weirdest complaint I've heard about 3 was that there's no morally good way to solve the problems in the Tenpenny Tower. Like, do you remember what you did to get there in the first place?
Dear Tim, thank you so much for Fallout. I was growing up playing your games (arcanum,vtmb)
Thank you for creating it
Fallout is the most exiting world to lose myself in. Thank you
Fallout IS a work of art.
Thank you.
I love your videos.
Great insights, uncle Tim. This is particularly very interesting to me. Throughout most of our Western culture, we thought that works of art had intrinsic value and meaning to them. For instance, people would say "Super Mario is about class struggle!" and people would debate endlessly and ask Nintendo whether that was true or not.
More recently, however, we started thinking that while artistic intent is also very important, the most interesting stuff can come from the audience's side instead: people projecting their values and perspectives onto art, and that's what creates meaning. It is honestly very exciting to have experienced this same transition of thought happening to videogames.
My intro to the series was 3. It was hopelessly bleak, slow, dry, and I Loved it. 4, while definitely its own experience, captured a similar tone.
When the series came out, a nitpick of mine was that the oldies music was Slightly overdone, and didn't let that bleak atmosphere breathe. But when I set out to finish New Vegas, I started flipping the radio on in the creepy interior sections, and found that it felt Very similar to the series in that regard. Now I typically go through vaults & caves this way, much as I love Inon Zur's unnerving score.
Can you talk about that fallout 1 demo, the one that was packed in PCGamer magazine back in the day? I must have played it for hours as a kid, the demo alone was a formative experience for me in games. And it was standalone, not part of the larger game - I am curious how that came about!
Fixing my 1986 944 and listening to these while I’m working
Tim having a color changing light is so funny to me
It was a gift. 🙂
Authorship v IP ownership is often a challenge - or even a threat - to the integrity of a game (world) as an artwork.
I do like many of the Fallout games & show, but i’m thinking of games like Disco Elysium, Bioshock, Deus Ex
It is a strange thing to see the original intent drift away from an iteration to the next
True in most cases, granted. I think the most intense disagreements arise when there is some core element, some "soul" that is missing, not merely viewed under a different shade. Fallout, and art in general, may be up for interpretation. But if Fallout does not have a core, something deeper than a few aesthetic traits, what exactly 'is' Fallout anyway? How is it distinguished from anything else? For instance, is a "Fallout" game that does 'not' grant you any of this player freedom truly... Fallout? That's the philosophical problem that causes endless debates, as philosophy always has.
Now imagine what art will look like 100 years from now. 😳
I have a strong dream to see a truly artistic and boundary-pushing IP totally untouched by those money seeking higher ups cutting it down with time constraints, and forcing the developers to not go too far outside of the box.
For some reason, I can't think of any games truly like this with the exception for totally independent, one-man games. But I'd love to see bigger projects with those elements not taking away from the end project.
Is there a world anytime soon where investors could totally trust artists & game developers to do what they do best?
not unless those investors are passionate gamers and dreamers themselves.
Sorry if I'm asking technical questions if you're not interested in answering, I just end up going down rabbit holes with this kind of stuff...
but here goes anyway...
How was the color conversion handled for the original fallout games?
Did you handle it? or was it another team member? Who?
Did they use a look-up table?
Where/how did they get the table?
*edit*
In your interview with Jason Taylor you said you used Alchemy to match color palette, what was alchemy? does it exist anymore? how did you use this to convert to fallout's palette?
For me the first Fallout has the right tone for the series, much darker and serious compared to the fallout themed amusement park of fallout 76.
Murder hobo here good vid Tim
Hey Tim,
I was working on making a 2D game engine as a programming project and since you had worked on engines for fallout and arcanum, I wanted to know what you would have done differently or would have wanted in an engine that you couldnt implement in the past due to constraints but would now.
P.S. I love the regular videos, and they have really helped me understand quite a bit about the games industry.
Cheers.
Tim did videos about it, look it up.
Anyway, what I personally don't like in 2Ds as a player:
- weird/broken pathfinding, dumb interactions with multi-z-level maps
- very small outdoor maps, where you can get cornered in the middle of the desert (was averted in Fallout with large escape zones, but today - why not just use some procedural generation?)
- pixelhunting. Please just make an option to highlight interactive items, you can even make it a skill.
- weird Z-level navigation options
- slicing, not shadowing upper Z-levels (see UFO: Alien Invasion)
- tedious to navigate inventory (unmodded Fallout 1/2)
- "retro" "pixels" quarter the size of my screen (see: any indie for $15 on steam). If you do that, please add CRT shader (filter?) or whatever, don't offend yourself with these awkward squares.
- NES/PC-speaker imitation soundtrack: loud, high-pitched, monotone, monophonical. See: any indie horror with "deep meaning" (mostly millenial).
- game-breaking memory leaks. If your game has crafting or options to become a pack rat - please test a room with multiple items in it.
Hope that helps in some way.
@@vos2693 i don't agree with some of these points.
-in terrms of crpgs i would say their pre-rendered environments still to this day looks gorgeous more than 20 years later (see baldur's gate, etc.)
-pixel art nowadays is drawn with HD screens in mind. in the old days it was obviously drawn with crt screens in mind but adding a crt effect to your average pixel art game wouldn't make it look any better unless it's also drawn with the crt effect in mind, and at that point what are you even doing, trying to imitate an art style that tries to be photorealistic with the limitations of the then technology like that's insane. just draw 2d art with anti aliasing from the get go which is what crt lines kinda do anyway
@@Alenthas
- you absolutely can combine pre-rendered map graphics and procedural generation, these are not mutually exclusive
- that's what I tried to say: know exactly what you are doing. Either imitate faithfully, or don't imitate at all, don't go for cheap "retro" looks. You've probably seen modern indie pixel horror PnC quests, these look not just awful - that's fine, tetris looks awful too, still great game - but worse: these games look extremely similar and unoriginal.
@@vos2693 yeah agree to disagree there mate
Thank you Tim. Long time gamer from the 80s with ZX Spectrum and C64 days. It's incredible how many hours I have spent analyzing pixels and their relationships among them selves. I would ask a question, is leaving out some of the info contributes to the whole mythos and different interpretations of the game? Like intentionally not finishing some stories? Or using less detailed characters, graphically and background vise? Me personally, I love more pixel art than perfectly drawn characters, but I think that I am biased toward my childhood.
Games have always been art for me but they also have more to them than just art philosophical questions get asked, sometimes irs about logical conclusions etc. They're the best media can offer in my opinion.
"logical" conclusions are unrealistic.
I have a personal bias against a lot of modern games. I don't see any art in live service games. They are just a product that forces the player into a virtual shop.
@@renaigh what i meant was asking questions about logic or solving logic problems stuff like that.
@@perceivedvelocity9914 hit it right on the nail
Hey Tim! I was wondering if you would ever be interested in making a video on things that stood out for you for each fallout game, whether it be positive or negative. I’m loving the content!
I've just started a brilliantly fun table top RPG game with my eldest daughter, given that it is in GURPS we went with an amalgamated setting (Post Apocalypse caused by monsters and now magic is coming back)
Have you got any interesting stories, worlds or tips from when you ran table top games?
You might like my video The Origin of Reactivity
th-cam.com/video/u0pJN3jpUjQ/w-d-xo.html
Or Why I Like Flawed Characters
th-cam.com/video/phMzoU7DOFA/w-d-xo.html
@@CainOnGames Thank you, I'm fairly sure I've watched at least one of those, now I'm off to check.
I hadn't seen one of those, Thank You again!
Now I want to natter about TTRPGs, My Daughter's character encountered trolls under a bridge.... and is now their arms dealer.
Let's just point out that if Fallout and 2 are meant to be remastered ever, even in a dream, the two should be shipped as one programme, one game.
sure its subjective how you perceive a game on one hand, but on the other that very ability to provide different experiences via difference in approaches is what have been in decline since F1/2
. Games in general and RPGs in specific made it possible to have an interactive story, one you write yourself. At least that was an ideal toward which games like Fallout 1/2 were moving the genre. And then it became mainstream business and business works on predictability, so last couple of decades was spent on bolstering all these tried and true non-interactive aspects of games. As a result most of modern RPGs are variations on a theme park, there most you can do is to be an actor, choose appearance of your character and see it in a cut-scene. Games could have moved to a next level, could have become a dialog instead of a statement from one side, but instead all the interactivity now is in combat sequences. So much for the art and self-expression.
A controversial stance to be sure, but I know exactly what you mean. Maybe Tim could do a followup titled 'RPGs as Dialogue' or something similar. ("Video games" is too wide a spectrum to fine-tune and share nuanced concepts such as these and Fallout perhaps actually too narrow a focus.)
True: Fallout held up a mirror to American society and what we did with the reflection we saw in it was entirely up to us. Perhaps we questioned the prevailing, societal paradigm along with the developers; perhaps we didn't; but -- whatever we did in our playthroughs -- it was a dialogue between developer and player due to the very fact that it was interactive in more ways than one. *That's* art; moreover it's shared, social art; and it's that kind of interactivity the industry has moved away from in the RPG genre in favor of viewing players as passive "consumers" who need only dis-traction to manipulate them any way the industry sees fit; "consumers" who merely sit in an audience, watch and listen, but do not interact with the media. I chalk it up to that Hollywood studio influence along with a marked trend toward viewing RPGs as mere money-makers by IP owners and investors alike. Even George Lucas and Stephen Spielberg are criticizing the "blockbuster" mentality their own films helped to foster and George Lucas' remarks at the recent Cannes Film Festival are true as can be: "What happens now-and it happens in streaming probably more than features, but features, it's the same thing-nobody knows what to do.... The stories they're telling are just old movies. 'Let's do a sequel, let's do another version of this movie.' And it's not just in movies, but in almost everything, *there's almost no original thinking* .”
I assume "almost everything" includes the art and production of video games. What are video game designers/developers (and filmmakers and showrunners) to do in an environment and atmosphere such as this to ensure their original, artistic vision for a RPG is carried forward and the audience groks it regardless the institutionalized greed that characterizes most every human endeavor today from Arts and Entertainment to Education and Healthcare and -- yes -- even Science in which the pressure to publish is often overriding the very methodology of science itself...when not being usurped by one corporate entity or another?
Oh, yes. There's more going on here than how people *feel* about Fallout. I'm sure Tim is more than a little disturbed by how some people feel about the direction of the contemporary Fallout franchise, especially, since Fallout 3 and New Vegas, but I suppose the number one thing we have to be vigilant about today is disallowing our *perceptions* to be manipulated and/or managed by others, "Perception Management" being all the rage today.
I feel that video games in general don’t get treated as an art because generally pubic perception view them as just games and I also kinda blame video games themselves.
While there is well done artistic games being released all the time, compared to most medians video games have the smallest portion of well communicated art. Majority of people treat them just as entertainment. That includes a good number of developers too.
I definitely understand not every game needs to attempt to be Citizen Kane. Games are a business and all, but even the few that try to do it sometimes end up making something laughable. For every well communicated and impactful game, I can name 10 games that try to be art but fail miserably. It’s not just the lack of given credit that sometimes kills a game’s potential to be an impactful piece, but also it’s influences. The number of games I’ve seen and played where “It’s doing something never done before with a gripping story” and it’s just a remake of a modern movie or show done terribly is staggering.
Too many Devs only look at just video games or recent movies for inspiration. That’s why I love Fallout(1997). Not only it’s inspired by popular media like Mad Max 2 and 50’s B movies, it has also been inspired by obscure media like La Jetée. Knowing a game like Fallout was inspired a 1962 French black and white short film not only increased my appreciation for Fallout, but it help recognize it’s tone and themes even more so. Even before I know for a fact the the short inspired Fallout to some degree, I got HEAVY fallout(1997) vibes when I watched it out of personal interest. That’s just a few of the dozens of inspirations that Tim mentioned in his Fallout Influences video.
What I’m try to say in this long ramble is that I wish more video game developers took influences and inspiration not just from other video games or movies that came out in the last 20 years. Looking back at older films, books, music, and even sometimes paintings you’ll discover something that will connect to you greatly. It also will add something great and unique to your game that others can resonate with.
I really like what you said about fallout asking questions it’s something I might take if I ever make a game
I’m unsure if you take suggestions for topics Mr.Cain, but is there any way you can make a fun video talking about Frank Horrigan from fallout 2! What inspired him, who came up with him, etc. He seems special in the fact that he’s the only boss in fallout that CANNOT be talked into standing down, plus he’s just badass haha
Well said, Tim, as usual! 😁👍
Do you feel like contemporary Fallout under Bethesda’s leadership has just been boiled down to its iconography? And if so how do you feel about that?
I need Wasteland 4, since it doesn't look like there will be a Fallout 5 anytime soon
Absolutely, Tim, and the tapestry you have all created will last forever. However, bethesda has taken all of the complexities of moral ambiguity of Fallout and turned it into shell of itself. I have always thought, if the incentive was to make money, then building upon the infinite potential of its original ideas would be better than this no? I mean seriously, no skills? Lol but I digress I think Fallout itself will eventually have the right minds behind it. Thanks for these videos Tim I appreciate your insight!
Has your perspective on diversity in games AND/OR(if significantly different) the workplace changed over the last x ammount of years? We hear so much from different groups about what diversity should look like, but what has it looked like to you, and what did you think about it 10/15/20 years ago, and what do you think now.
Thanks Tim,
An aspiring human
To me there was no incentive to be "selfish" and go for loot or other mechanical advantages in Fallout because you get loot eventually anyway. The choice was "which option is going to let me see the most game content" which was usually the "good" choice.
That's how I played pretty much any game actually.
Hey Tim, a while ago you made a video about college vs. self-taught. That video was more about which path one should consider going down to become a game dev. I wonder if, in your career, you noticed anything different about developers who were college or self-taught and were already in the industry. Do they generally have different qualities, processes, gaps in knowledge, or different ways of thinking from each other? Or maybe you've found that eventually, it all melds together, and everyone is similar? Or maybe you've found that the two paths are irrelevant and individuals are what make them different?
Thanks for the videos Tim!
I think that one problem with experiencing cRPG games as some kind of a real moral dilemma is saving and loading game to avoid consequences.
Like everyone can be a hero or a villain when there are no negative consequences of such decisions.
But what if for example attacking a raider camp or slavers or whatever bad part of the world carries significant risk of dying?
Same with anti-social activities like for example theft.
A few hours? Of Fallout? Just a few hours of Fallout?
when i first played fallout i left the vault and wandered all over the map, arrived at places and everything was done and dead, then was radiated and died lol.
Very thought-provoking video.
Do you think the different interpretations also apply to socio-political messages?
For example, Chris Avellone has stated that Fallout is not anti-capitalist, but could it be valid for an individual to personally interpret Fallout as being anti, or even pro capitalist?
Just like I said in my video about Bad Games, I think everyone interprets games differently. Chris was just saying that the message of Fallout was not inherently anti-capitalist. In other words, that was not our point we were trying to make.
Because of a random time travel encounter the Fallout story was something completely else than what is considered canon. As a teenager my English wasn't good enough and I thought the sentient AI you met was responsible for the war. It was developed to be the ultimate weapon, but in fact was depressed and wanted to end itself, but scientists tried to keep it alive and prohibit it from self destruction. So it hacked the global defense systems and started the war to so it had at least a chance to finally go to sleep. It started the rockets of the faction that was least likely to escalate against the force that was most likely to escalate under the pretense of "defense", the US.
So the war caused by the AI made me think it was a critique of science and technology, that we assume we "create great things" for "the good of all", but the truth is people are really too blind for what others really want, let alone what would be wise. In the end the scientists were ruthless and tyrannic and lacked all empathy to the point that even self determination/destruction was prohibited, the only valid existence for this AI was to exist as a tool, the scientists had good reason for it, as they had for everything. A mirror of how the war driven beings who claim to defend themselves against the "evil others" are in truth desiring to be in total control. Actions speak louder than words and oaths and the vehemence of the scientists forced the AI to finally say "if there is no necessity for freedom then there is no necessity for life".
Games, not just video games, can be art. Just think of the Monopoly and how it translates capitalistic reality into the game form, and the way how players make decisions in it.
Can’t wait to see it in the Louvre where it belongs 💅
Hi Tim! Your video made me wondering - have you played Last of Us and what is your opinion. I’m asking as I’m selling it to all my friends as one of the best things from GENERAL culture (not only games - we’re talking all arts) that I had pleasure to consume. Ofc besides Fallout which follows me since childhood ❤
Art asks questions like: "Would you carry a large bag of and pay with bottle caps? Would you eat expired radioactive junk food? Would you walk intentionally through a hostile wasteland just for kicks? Would you risk your life just to see a Deathclaw or a Radscorpion?" Questions like that?😂 I'm sure there must be a whole list of deep philosophical questions for Fallout. lol I will need to look at that luck perk again.
Hi Tim! My name’s Molly and I’m working on a review on the very first Fallout game and I wanted some backstory on it’s development.
Are you’re alright with an interview? If not that’s fine.
For me games are like movies: some are made to inspire, provoke introspection; others are made for pure entertainment.
On another hand there is possibly no other form of art that can gatekeep you from experiencing it in its entirety. There are 'auto-play' games, but some require perseverance and learning the mechanics.
The easiest example is Dark Souls series. It's not only hard, but deciphering its lore is a task on its own!
Other forms of art do gatekeep you from experiencing it in its entirely. If you are reading a poem or an epic then you have to read it and learn about how narratives and writings work to fully understand them. Or an even more simple example is if you try reading a work written in another language or trying to experience a painting but you can't see. Although it is correct to say the barrier of entry to experience most forms of art are lower than some video games yes.
Tim, have you ever been to Japan? If not, I think you'd like it.
Hi Tim, how long do you see yourself uploading these videos? I remember you mentioned having a month's worth of videos already recorded.
Is there an existing list of questions you've already answered?
Games still have a long way to go to be widely recognized as a medium for art. There are some bold statements from true artists in games, there are some quite impressive and deep explorations of human nature or our relationships with the world made to be played as a game. But as far a I see it, audience mostly just want the intertainment. "Art" games still a very niche, and often regarded as "boring" by the majority.
Wish Bethesda would offer you back to work on the games, they need you!! Although Im sure you probably wouldn’t even accept that offer lol
Ive always felt weird about video games as art, tldr I think the intent matters. Personally, I put games like the fallout titles on the level of good books. Things you go back to once in a while.
Vacuum Tubes are art
Let's compromise: Video game development is baking.
It’s hard to look at great games like Fallout, Elden Ring or Baldur’s Gate 3 and not consider those art pieces.
Oh you're a Fallout fan? What kind of Fallout fan?
Fallout 4 was the first game that allowed me to explore a queer relationship, it will always stick with me as my game of all time.
Straight here, the first in game same sex wedding with my character was in 1998, in Fallout2. It was a militaristic lesbian with libertarian ideas. My second was a pacifist naive with high charisma girl also in Fallout 2, and then bi and gay chars from Fallout New Vegas. Great games
There is a mod for F4 that allows for a same-sex couple at the start, but really, Bethesda should have incorporated that right from the get go.
The beautiful thing about games as art is that they unite so many fields of art together through technology to create a whole new universe within the context of the game. Fallout is the perfect, probably the single best, example of this. From Inon Zur's soundscape design of even the original titles to the re-engineering of the 50s cold war aesthetic, to the things Fallout is saying about our modern world, the way we commoditize even war for human consumption, its all relevant, its all art.
I think the BGS Fallout's more align with being toys to play with. Todd and co aren't really interested in mature and complex themes, and tend to think incredibly superficially about the ideas.
They're a bit like Zack Snyder; conflating the stating of Themes™ with an exploration of them. Emil P, in particular.
I'm going through a quite heavily modded F4 at the moment, and I'm having a great time. It's a lot of fun. But it's quite brainless. Morrowind was the last time BGS really cared about themes and exploration of ideas. That was very artful, but a quite bad toy to play with. Everything after that has been the opposite (one could argue Starfield is an iffily made toy to play with, but despite all its flaws I still find it fun).
@@SabiJD I'd say Oblivion was a good middle ground for a BGS game- for me anyway- excellent gameplay with enough meaning to the stories it tells you. (outside of the semi-generic "I'm the legendary hero person" questline)
Pretty accurate to compare to Snyder though 🤣
@@Gu1tarZer0 See, Oblivion was my breaking point/awakening moment with BGS... I couldn't help comparing it to Morrowind, and so it felt like a lobotomised cartoon world. The complexity and purpose of TES3's MQ themes were replaced by 'demons are invading. stop the demons from invading'. It felt reduced and simplified.
Culturally it seemed like a PC RPG had just transitioned into a mass-market console game. I was on the forums whining about fast travel, the writing, the lack of spears, etc...
Oblivion is pretty much the Rosetta stone of how and why games like Fallout 4 and Starfield are the way they are. Plus, re monetisation; once there was horse armour, and now it's a monetised meme (a 'creation' in F76, I think? or F4). With the former there was controversy, but the latter barely passed without a mention. Now they've got what they always wanted, paid mods (I saw weapon stats *edit* for a rifle on SF; 100pts for an item that buffs health... and someone wants money for that. and Bethesda let them try it on).
Sorry for the bitter tangent...
I accepted BGS for what they are with Skyrim. I gave up wanting much better from them, because I don't think they're interested in artful creation any more. Todd and Emil seem to see units shifted as validation - that they therefore don't need to listen to criticism, or re-think their production culture that resulted in SF's bizarrely disconnected experience.
I know Oblivion was a lot of people's first fantasy game or RPG. I understand why so many love it. But selfishly, I don't really care, because I rather see that as the demise of their ambition.
Their grasp of open-world design is still superb (erm, SF aside... ), and the structure they offer is without equal, especially modded. So I still love BGS for those qualities.
@@SabiJD All fair points, I just loved the way it mechanically smoothed out the experience, given I wasn't exactly mature enough to not murder-hobo both MW and Oblivion at the time. (and yeah fuck the monetization, but KotN wasn't a bad addon, if anemic- and Shivering Isles was better than the MQ)
Another big one was the XBox would take up to 30min to load MW, and my ~10yr old gamer brain couldn't handle it
@@Gu1tarZer0 Oblivion smoothed out the experience to the point of combat barely being a mechanic, though. First-person melee is a very hard thing to do well, but even in Skyrim can that be called a mechanic? A system? It's just mindless spamming of attack until a health bar disappears.
Morrowind's combat wasn't fun, but it *was* expressive of a role. The hyper specificity of weapon types is poor design, rooted too much in arbitrary pen'n'paper ideas. But the principle that you had to use a weapon to get better at it felt far truer. Post-Morrowind just does the modern thing of stat based damage additions. I don't feel that's a good enough RPG solution, regardless of how normalised it's become.
But it's a bit of a digression to call out core action gameplay in a BGS game. Combat can be quite poorly designed and shallow, but still have value as punctuation of mood and your own wandering story/adventure (Witcher 3's combat was quite poor). Melee is a kind of fun in Fallout 4, simply because it's better animated and often leads to gory results (how a baton explodes a raider's head I'm not sure... but it looks impressive).
Where it's more reasonable to be critical is how BGS have made no attempts to develop melee over the years. TESVI will be the first melee dominant game they release since Skyrim (F4 and SF having it be a simple reserve focus is fine, given those settings prioritise ranged combat), and I expect it to mostly just be the same again. They have no design ambition. It'd be cool if they tried to riff on Kingdom Come Deliverance's combat. That's very janky, but it's at least trying to do more involved first-person melee.
OG Xbox Morrowind didn't take *that* long to load... but yeah, it was bad. I wasn't fussed at the time because the whole thing felt so new and impressive. I'm curious to experience it on Series X with the BC improvements, but it doesn't hold up as a game to play these days, especially without mods. Movement speed and the punishing stamina design would just do my head in.
Fallout is on that level like Star Wars, in the sense there are sooooo many stories to tell, different vaults to explore, different factions stories, I really wouldn’t mind a brotherhood of steel only story, we got a taste on the show how they are, super super cool.
Check out Fallout Tactics if you haven’t already! It’s entirely focused on the Brotherhood
@@zentonil I’m talking about a full campaign, foundling/aspirant/squire/knight going out into wasteland to retrieve a relic or high value target.
👍
I always take wild wasteland
Games are the new movies imo.
Speaking of "Gaming is Art or not"... Suppose we put Mona Lisa in a game. Art is art or not Art?