I love these discussions but they expose my woefully under-educated Christian mind as the two of you rip through AND STACK the concepts at break-neck speed as if an algebra/calc problem where you must comprehend all steps in the theorem or get lost. I came here excited to marry the concepts of Heiser’s UNSEEN REALM (and related works) to the suggested Pentecost singularity but wow, the approach is like a Breach Team entering a building to rescue hostages and it’s GO TIME. Maybe a more remedial pace or split these into two? Slow the rate of words spoken per minute with such reference-heavy speed-talking? Love it! But want to comprehend it all. It’s not just a discussion between you two, lol.
Thank you, Jonathan and Richard. I have been following the channel for about 4-5 years through the Jordan Peterson pathway and I am finally going to be baptized this Pascha. You helped me understand the Bible more fully and the Jay Dyer -sphere completed it with the theology part. After some point I just couldn't avoid anymore going to church I am truly grateful for all of you. God bless! Christ is risen!
I have studied and written on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost for many years as it relates to the two calendars, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the events of the Passion Week. Yet today, I have learned several new things from Jonathan and Richard. Excellent discussion, men!
Have been studying theology and history for almost six decades. These discussions are always intriguing to me. Thank you both for the time you spend seeking truth. God has truly blessed you both 🙏
These conversations between the two of you are helpful beyond what you know. Thank you for making them public, they both bind and scatter!! Very grateful gentlemen, thank you.
Thank you for this series. It's connected things for me that's brought everything into more of a cohesive whole. First I was introduced to Redemptive Analogies, then Eternity in Their Hearts, then Biblical Typology, then Theology of the Body, and now Universal History, which brings it kind of full circle.
So cool yall. And of course this is familiar to most, but in Whole Counsel i found Fr. Stephen’s exegesis on the Abraham covenant to be absolutely astounding and jaw dropping. God takes the subservient position by walking between the animals symbolically stating that should He break the covenant, may He be slain like these. And of course, in the new covenant, He incarnates to be slain, fulfilling the promise of that covenant and implementing the new. That was definitely a rewind and listen again moment. Love you!
A real mind-blower. In the traditions I have been part of (independent fundamental Baptist -> Southern Baptist -> PCA Presbyterian), the apocryphal books were never banned. Neglected and dismissed, yes, but not banned. The most affirmation they received was from my late pastor R.C. Sproul, who said that Jean Calvin and the other early Reformers sometimes read from the Apocrypha in sermons, and that there were some helpful things found there as long as you remembered that they don’t carry the same weight as scripture. I certainly hadn’t ever read them before listening to you guys.
I love universal history... A self authenticating fractal image... Kind of sobering... The more you see the more responsibility. Glory to God for all things!
On the ritual in Genesis 15 (Abram cutting the animals in half), Fr Stephen de Young talks about this on Lord of Spirits in the Heavenly Man from Heaven episode and connects it to Pentecost in Exodus (I'm basically quoting but edited some bits from the transcript so they would be more fluid): "Covenants are issued by a high king, by a suzerain to a vassal, to a lesser king, but the verb isn’t “issued” or “signed” or “enacted” or “inaugurated,” but covenants are “cut” in Hebrew. You cut a covenant with someone. And this is what Abraham is doing, in the Ancient Near East, a relatively common oath-taking ritual involved in these kind of covenants. Normally it would be the vassal, it would be the weaker party, who would walk through the split animals. And what they’re saying when they do that, as a form of oath-taking, is: If I violate the terms of this covenant-because covenants came with blessings and curses attached, like you see at the end of the book of Deuteronomy, at the end of the Torah-and so, symbolic of those curses was these split animals. So it’s sort of: May I end up like these animals. By walking through it, then, the vassal is identifying himself with the animals, but there’s a sense of: That’s only going to happen to you if you break this covenant. You’re accepting the curses that will come to you if you violate it; you’re accepting the curses of the covenant. However, God inverts it, because it is the presence of God represented by this torch that passes through the halves. God is saying that if this covenant with him is broken, he will receive the curses. And what St. Paul will see in this, as he’s going to talk about in several of his epistles, is Christ becoming a curse for us. That it is in fact Christ who accepts the curse of the covenant that results from our disobedience. But so-going back to Exodus-this blood that’s thrown on the people, they’re taking a similar oath, and you see that in the text, because they say, “All the words the Lord has spoken we will do.” Then he sprinkles them with the blood, he reads it to them again, and they say, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do. We will be obedient.” When he’s throwing the blood on the people, he says, “Behold, the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you, in accordance with all these words.” He's saying: Look at the blood. The idea is they're accepting death if they break it."
phlebas9204 Father Stephen DeYoung is pretty clear all throughout Lord of Spirits that the Orthodox definition of curse and atonement is wildly different from the Covenant Theology present in Calvinist doctrine. Galatians 3:13 still exists in Orthodox Bibles. The interpretation is different, but the verse is still there. Same for 2 Corinthians 5:21. These verses are only Calvinistic if you read sin as "moral wrongdoing" and "atonement" as "receiving punishment from a wrathful God."
phlebas9204 Ahh, gotcha. Johnathon Pageau's background was much more evangelistic then either Richard Rohlin or Fr. DeYoungs. I'm guessing that generally means less disconnected from the reformed tradition (maybe non-denom, free grace baptist, or arminian baptist). So probably just didn't catch that like they did. As someone who also came from an evangelistic background it took me a while to grasp some of the same things. The Whole Counsel of God has also been super helpful to me along with Lord of Spirits. I wonder if Johnathon Pageau is a regular listener to either of those podcasts.
I’m glad this is the first of the videos on universal history that I’ve watched because it puts all of the others in context and centered on the biblical story.
The separation and unity makes so much sense thank you you can even see it in marriage you separate ur self from your family inorder to mary with someone else and then they unite into ur family. Or you have to seperate ur self from ur self inorder to unite with God. Like you can apply this everywhere where u make a covenant with God. This is amazing
Identity through separation and unification…multiplicity becomes the eternal singularity when the perceived passage of time becomes the enduring Pentecost.
I have heard someone say that at Pentecost when the Apostles received the Holy Spirit ,the 3 thousands lives Moses killed for their idolatry were restored when 3 thousands were babtized after St Peter preached .
The notion that we are living in the times of Babel, so to speak, is definitely something which has been on my mind for many months now. Thanks for finishing y'all's thoughts on this topic.
Given the current connectivity of people all over the planet it makes sense that Babel would hover in one's mind nowadays. Now I just keep thinking no wonder God said "time to break this shit up"
I read Acts for the first time last year and when I read about the event in the upper room, I likened it to the Tower of Babel event too. Just that I didn't see the descent of the Holy Spirit on the night of Pentecost as also having a unifying aspect. The book of Acts is a very traumatic story.
The wind of Babel and the apostolic Pentacost: the same one that was blowing over the face of the deep in Genesis 1 (and, by the way, Day 4 is the first fruits of the plant kingdom, isn’t it? Followed by a blessing of fruitfulness for the animals); the same wind that dried the land as the flood receded (just prior to the Noahic covenant); the same wind that parted the Red Sea (just before the Siniatic covenant).
This was a great universal history episode! All of the small moments of shared epiphany made it the more authentic and engaging. There was this "on the fly" vibe going on. Heh.
Idolatry doesn’t just result in an excess of separation, it also results in an excess of unity. That’s what all the incest is about. As well as the sodomy in Soddom and Gomorrah. The tower itself is an excess of unity which breeds disunity.
Great discussion that I'll be thinking about for months to come. I would love to see you discus of how this relates to the "abomination that causes desolation" in the end times spoken of in Danial and the gospels. This abomination seems to be a wrong sacrifice that leads to scattering and judgement at the ultimate scale.
There are ancient stories from southern Africa about animals gaining a fear of man at the time that a vapour canopy environment broke down. Which you would imagine would cause a flood.
37:52 just a few thoughts on the drunkeness symbolism with Abraham. He falls into a deep sleep (ekstasis in the LXX) after the sacrifice. Also, the episode with Hagar immediately proceeds. Maybe some parallels with Noah and Cannan as his ofspring.
We gentile Christians still follow the Torah, however, there are commandments in the Torah directed only towards Israelites and others that are directed towards both Israelites and gentiles. That's the basis for the decision at the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.
I accidentally bought tickets to Jonathan’s event yesterday thinking it was online😂 It was money well spent but I hope i didn’t take someone’s seat. Oops.
Like many people, Richard seems to believe Pentecost was the day the Law was given at Mt. Sinai. However, in studying the Dead Sea Scrolls, the community called themselves the Sons of Light and Pentecost wasn't just the Feast of Weeks, they called it the Feast of the Renewal of the Covenant, believing that on the day of Pentecost, the Covenant was made between the people and God (Exodus 19:8: "All that the Lord has spoken, we will do."). Only after the people said this thus entering into the Covenant, was the law given on the Third Day.
Genesis 1: first God divides, then He multiplies. He separated dark from light, the waters above from the waters below, the land from the seas...then he began to multiply creatures, plants, etc. With special blessings to "be fruitful and multiply".
I now know why I like you guys " I am Dumb" great realization, I live there everyday. Looking to move forward, you guys are helping in that process. Thank you.
About Abraham’s cutting rite, ANE scholars have shown that it was not an uncommon ritual at that time. It was used when a superior (a king or other powerful person) made a covenant with a lesser person or people. The thrust of it is, if I don’t keep this covenant with you, may I be cut asunder. It’s a symbolic representation of the consequences of covenant-breaking.
It is ironic and a bit funny that Richard told the story of when he was in a Protestant church, they forgot that Easter was the next week and someone suggested that they just put off the celebration for a month. There is a provision in Leviticus that if someone was unclean or away and could not keep Passover, they could keep it 30 days later, the following month.
Interestingly, the covenant-drunkenness-incest nexus can also be seen in several anti-Christian polemics of the early Roman period. It seems like an arbitrary accusation, but makes some kind of sense if it fits in this pattern. See, e.g., from Chapter 9 of the Octavius by Minucius Felix: "And of their banqueting it is well known all men speak of it everywhere; even the speech of our Cirtensian testifies to it. On a solemn day they assemble at the feast, with all their children, sisters, mothers, people of every sex and of every age. There, after much feasting, when the fellowship has grown warm, and the fervour of incestuous lust has grown hot with drunkenness, a dog that has been tied to the chandelier is provoked, by throwing a small piece of offal beyond the length of a line by which he is bound, to rush and spring; and thus the conscious light being overturned and extinguished in the shameless darkness, the connections of abominable lust involve them in the uncertainty of fate. Although not all in fact, yet in consciousness all are alike incestuous, since by the desire of all of them everything is sought for which can happen in the act of each individual."
Indentured servitude was based on Jubilee years, 7 years of servitude and release was the Jubilee years. A Jubilee year was also when all debts would be forgiven.
So, Paul may have been referring to the Book of Jubilees when he said “Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. Galatians 3:19.”
When you were discussing the covenant and the cutting of the animals in half and God walking through, I couldn’t help but think of the Isrealites crossing through the Red Sea. Do you think there’s any significance or connection there?
Excellent and exciting talk, thanks for this new insights. We obviously should study the apocrypha more sedulously. Just one thought or idea regarding the motif of cutting of the animals in two and God walking through the divided parts when making the covenant with Abraham (risking to sound heretical :-) ) --- The motif of covenant closely connected with the motif of sleep, the danger of drunkenness and - maybe - incest (which in Abraham’s case is externalised in the parallel story of Lot.) The cutting and separation of the animal's flesh as ritual part of the covenant might also refer to the central meaning of separation of man (child) from his parents in order to become mature and responsible for a new (marital) covenant. The given "one-flesh-relation" of natural kinship is pointing towards 1. separation (from mother and father, but also from brother and sister) and to 2. dispersion; and thus to 3. multiplication - via becoming one flesh with the foreign or alien person of the other sex. One needs to be separated in order to be gathered in a new formation, quality or constitution. In Genesis 2 God himself is doing the first of all separations by opening the side of (the sleeping!) Adam - cutting - and creating a new, original female; God is protecting this vulnerable separation, and He himself is initiating and guaranteeing the new covenantal unity between Ish and Isha. Dispersion and multiplication is THE profound dynamics in all creational prospering. Every form of ‘recurvation’ (incest) is prohibited and forbidden - because it is in profound enmity and denial to existence and vitality as such. Similarly, we can read the story of Babel as the prohibition of any spiritual, cultural and territorial ‘recurvation’ or clotting of the human race/population, which is a genuin revolt against the command of dispersion in idolatrous self-sufficiency. The covenantal promise to Abraham is to grow into many nations (intended disparity); even future Israel will become many tribes and also being scattered into the nations - whereas the task of recollecting, gathering and uniting those is the preserve of the Messiah, the New Adam, who is both: Goel (kinsman) and Groom.
Fantastic to see, in real time, God Give Jonathan the revelation about Lot's drunkenness!! Thank You Lord!!! At 49:00 mark, Jonathan you kinda touch on this, but people *HEAR* in their own language. Everyone wants to gloss over this very important detail. It does not say they were speaking in each person's language. It says they *HEARD* them speaking.... I propose to Richard (and Jonathan) that what was occurring was the spiritual gift of *interpretation of tongues* in action. And that those that thought they were drunk were not operating in the gift of interpretation of tongues, so they heard it as nonsensical. This also explains how all the people heard them in their own languages. If the gift of interpretation was operating, what I say in tongues, one person heard it in Hebrew, one heard in Aramaic, one heard in Greek, one heard as nonsensical (that guy didn't have the gift of interpretation ).
Very interesting & informative & also 1. Matthew chapter 24 2. We are already in the tribulation 3. A certain person (we don’t say the name) will bring a False peace 4. Jesus is the Cause of Armageddon 5. True Christians will be extracted before that war 6. Jesus’ return is with vengeance
I have an honest question for anyone who cares to answer, and I thank whomever takes the time to respond Without going too deep into the woods, I’m autistic, and I’ve been drawn back to Christ recently, and long story short I’m looking into Orthodox Christianity. I’m not sure where I land yet, but I went to a Great Vespers service this weekend, and looking into other avenues of knowledge. On to my question. Since Saturday evening, I’ve kinda felt like I’ve been walking through a dream world. This is similar but different to some experiences I have as an autistic adult (dislocation, depersonalization, etc) I’m wondering if anyone who started looking into Orthodoxy has had any similar experience, or if it’s something I can just assign to my neurodivergence. And if it’s not the ND, any other insights would be welcome. God bless.
Hello! Thank you both so much! I have a question that’s really bugging me and maybe you can put me in the right direction! Somewhere in the video you mentioned that jubilees is referred to in either the bible or the New Testament. Could you refer me to a specific texts where jubilees is either alluded to or quoted? This would be super helpful! Thank you very much.
I’ve been poking around the Internet and can’t find any source for Jubilee, quotations or allusions in the New Testament. So your help is greatly appreciated!
The "just to chase away the flies" explanation seems to be completely blind to "Beelzebub" as a name of a spiritual entity named in Scripture, besides flies' connection with death and decay in general.
Apropos of nothing, we can see that rainbows are circular just with a mass amount of water droplets in the air - e.g. near a waterfall, with a sprinkler - and the sunlight from behind us. Very cool
He talks too fast and it‘s difficult to digest. Perhaps interesting for people who are already deep into these subjects. I‘m following Jonathan’s channel for quite some time, but this had a strange flavour.
@@DavidBalila Him and Richard Rohlin are both devout Orthodox Christians, so I am assuming that the holy movement he would be referring to is being united to THE holy movement of the Orthodox Church
I don't think Ur was after Babel. I think they existed simultaneously. That is the timeline in the book of Jasher. Nimrod was king, Abraham was born in Ur; he was a Chaldean. At his birth, Nimrod's priests saw a sign in the sky after visiting the celebration of Abram's birth. It was an ominous sign that indicated his lineage would be the death of nimrod. They went and told Nimrod who then ordered Abram's father to kill Abraham. He offered over one of his servant's babies under the guise that it was Abraham and Abraham was raised in a cave until he was ten when he went and studied the priesthood under Shem and Noah. And it was Esau (Abraham's grandson) that killed Nimrod while he was hunting one day. He had to flee from nimrod's men which is why he was exhausted and hastily gave away his inheritance to Jacob for a bowl of soup. He thought he was going to die. It must have been something for him to kill Nimrod. Supposedly he was not only a giant but he wore the special skins God made for Adam and Eve after they left Eden. These skins were stolen out of the ark from noah, by ham and passed to cush, who passed them to nimrod. They gave him special powers.
Don’t forget to attend to the birds when discussing Genesis 15!!! It’s the proper joining of heaven and earth that God manifests. The 6th day creatures are divided or “worked.” The 5th day creatures (birds) of peace contrasted with meat eating raptures are not divided! It is the proper combination of heaven (peaceful birds) and worked/divided earth (heifer/goat/ram) where God manifests Himself. 3 land animals divided into 6 pieces, two pieces of heaven that are the same but differentiated (pigeon and turtle dove). 7 and 8. To Jesus Christ the glory.
So symbolically, the pentecostal Church is the final form of protestant churches - it comes after the tower of babel that was the protestant traditions collapsed.
Just to be clear is "Third Esdras" that Richard talks about here also titled "1 Esdras" in English translations? ("First" and "Second" Esdras being titled "Ezra" and "Nehemiah" respectively.) Anyway just to confirm the Third Esdras being referred to here begins something like "Josiah kept the Passover...", right?
The book is apparently known as “3 Esdras” in the Slavonic Bible, however it’s also known (confusingly) as 2 Esdras, the Ezra Apocalypse, and is included in the Appendix to the Latin Vulgate Bible as 4 Esdras. It opens with a genealogy of Ezra, followed by ‘The word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Go, declare to my people their evil deeds and to their children the iniquities that they have committed against me,”’
Join us for the first course on the Divine Comedy, starting May 8th. Dante’s Inferno: www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses-pages/dantes-inferno
I love these discussions but they expose my woefully under-educated Christian mind as the two of you rip through AND STACK the concepts at break-neck speed as if an algebra/calc problem where you must comprehend all steps in the theorem or get lost.
I came here excited to marry the concepts of Heiser’s UNSEEN REALM (and related works) to the suggested Pentecost singularity but wow, the approach is like a Breach Team entering a building to rescue hostages and it’s GO TIME.
Maybe a more remedial pace or split these into two? Slow the rate of words spoken per minute with such reference-heavy speed-talking?
Love it! But want to comprehend it all. It’s not just a discussion between you two, lol.
Thank you, Jonathan and Richard. I have been following the channel for about 4-5 years through the Jordan Peterson pathway and I am finally going to be baptized this Pascha. You helped me understand the Bible more fully and the Jay Dyer -sphere completed it with the theology part. After some point I just couldn't avoid anymore going to church I am truly grateful for all of you. God bless! Christ is risen!
He is risen indeed!❤
I have studied and written on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost for many years as it relates to the two calendars, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the events of the Passion Week. Yet today, I have learned several new things from Jonathan and Richard. Excellent discussion, men!
Have been studying theology and history for almost six decades. These discussions are always intriguing to me. Thank you both for the time you spend seeking truth. God has truly blessed you both 🙏
Please somehow turn all this Universal History into a elementary-high school homeschool history curriculum! 😁. Pleeease!!!
These conversations between the two of you are helpful beyond what you know. Thank you for making them public, they both bind and scatter!! Very grateful gentlemen, thank you.
Rain-bow, the weapon used to send the flood! Wow, never thought of it that way!🤯
Thank you for this series. It's connected things for me that's brought everything into more of a cohesive whole. First I was introduced to Redemptive Analogies, then Eternity in Their Hearts, then Biblical Typology, then Theology of the Body, and now Universal History, which brings it kind of full circle.
So cool yall. And of course this is familiar to most, but in Whole Counsel i found Fr. Stephen’s exegesis on the Abraham covenant to be absolutely astounding and jaw dropping. God takes the subservient position by walking between the animals symbolically stating that should He break the covenant, may He be slain like these. And of course, in the new covenant, He incarnates to be slain, fulfilling the promise of that covenant and implementing the new. That was definitely a rewind and listen again moment. Love you!
A real mind-blower. In the traditions I have been part of (independent fundamental Baptist -> Southern Baptist -> PCA Presbyterian), the apocryphal books were never banned. Neglected and dismissed, yes, but not banned. The most affirmation they received was from my late pastor R.C. Sproul, who said that Jean Calvin and the other early Reformers sometimes read from the Apocrypha in sermons, and that there were some helpful things found there as long as you remembered that they don’t carry the same weight as scripture. I certainly hadn’t ever read them before listening to you guys.
I love universal history... A self authenticating fractal image... Kind of sobering... The more you see the more responsibility. Glory to God for all things!
finding these universal history sessions super interesting. Wlidly diverse connections brought together with remarkable grace.thanks for this sharing.
"The Way the Wind Works"
"The Wind will carry us" a beautiful film by Abbas Kiarostami.
Thanks for the insights on Pentacost!
On the ritual in Genesis 15 (Abram cutting the animals in half), Fr Stephen de Young talks about this on Lord of Spirits in the Heavenly Man from Heaven episode and connects it to Pentecost in Exodus (I'm basically quoting but edited some bits from the transcript so they would be more fluid):
"Covenants are issued by a high king, by a suzerain to a vassal, to a lesser king, but the verb isn’t “issued” or “signed” or “enacted” or “inaugurated,” but covenants are “cut” in Hebrew.
You cut a covenant with someone. And this is what Abraham is doing, in the Ancient Near East, a relatively common oath-taking ritual involved in these kind of covenants. Normally it would be the vassal, it would be the weaker party, who would walk through the split animals. And what they’re saying when they do that, as a form of oath-taking, is: If I violate the terms of this covenant-because covenants came with blessings and curses attached, like you see at the end of the book of Deuteronomy, at the end of the Torah-and so, symbolic of those curses was these split animals. So it’s sort of: May I end up like these animals.
By walking through it, then, the vassal is identifying himself with the animals, but there’s a sense of: That’s only going to happen to you if you break this covenant.
You’re accepting the curses that will come to you if you violate it; you’re accepting the curses of the covenant.
However, God inverts it, because it is the presence of God represented by this torch that passes through the halves. God is saying that if this covenant with him is broken, he will receive the curses. And what St. Paul will see in this, as he’s going to talk about in several of his epistles, is Christ becoming a curse for us. That it is in fact Christ who accepts the curse of the covenant that results from our disobedience.
But so-going back to Exodus-this blood that’s thrown on the people, they’re taking a similar oath, and you see that in the text, because they say, “All the words the Lord has spoken we will do.” Then he sprinkles them with the blood, he reads it to them again, and they say, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do. We will be obedient.”
When he’s throwing the blood on the people, he says, “Behold, the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you, in accordance with all these words.” He's saying: Look at the blood. The idea is they're accepting death if they break it."
phlebas9204 Father Stephen DeYoung is pretty clear all throughout Lord of Spirits that the Orthodox definition of curse and atonement is wildly different from the Covenant Theology present in Calvinist doctrine.
Galatians 3:13 still exists in Orthodox Bibles. The interpretation is different, but the verse is still there. Same for 2 Corinthians 5:21. These verses are only Calvinistic if you read sin as "moral wrongdoing" and "atonement" as "receiving punishment from a wrathful God."
phlebas9204 Ahh, gotcha. Johnathon Pageau's background was much more evangelistic then either Richard Rohlin or Fr. DeYoungs. I'm guessing that generally means less disconnected from the reformed tradition (maybe non-denom, free grace baptist, or arminian baptist). So probably just didn't catch that like they did.
As someone who also came from an evangelistic background it took me a while to grasp some of the same things. The Whole Counsel of God has also been super helpful to me along with Lord of Spirits. I wonder if Johnathon Pageau is a regular listener to either of those podcasts.
I’m glad this is the first of the videos on universal history that I’ve watched because it puts all of the others in context and centered on the biblical story.
The separation and unity makes so much sense thank you you can even see it in marriage you separate ur self from your family inorder to mary with someone else and then they unite into ur family. Or you have to seperate ur self from ur self inorder to unite with God. Like you can apply this everywhere where u make a covenant with God. This is amazing
I may have said 3 Esdras but I meant 4 Esdras. Which is also 2 Esdras by some reckonings... So you can see how easy it is to misspeak.
Which version of The Book of Jubilees do you recommend?
Identity through separation and unification…multiplicity becomes the eternal singularity when the perceived passage of time becomes the enduring Pentecost.
I have heard someone say that at Pentecost when the Apostles received the Holy Spirit ,the 3 thousands lives Moses killed for their idolatry were restored when 3 thousands were babtized after St Peter preached .
I am always fascinated by the tower of Babel. Great video, looking forward to the Dante.
The notion that we are living in the times of Babel, so to speak, is definitely something which has been on my mind for many months now. Thanks for finishing y'all's thoughts on this topic.
Given the current connectivity of people all over the planet it makes sense that Babel would hover in one's mind nowadays. Now I just keep thinking no wonder God said "time to break this shit up"
This was my favorite Universal History session yet!
Love listening to Richard! (And Jonathan as a given) ❤
Never read Dantes Inferno fully, signed up to get updated on that course.
The rainbow is the weapon that destroys the world.... *cough ...Based*
Beautiful way to spend my Sunday afternoon. Blow, Spirit, blow. Going to hear a praise concert tonight. It all flows together.
I feel so blessed to get to hear you two expound on these awesome themes 🫡
The wind at Pentecost in Acts also blows over a Tower:
"There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Mt 24:2)
I read Acts for the first time last year and when I read about the event in the upper room, I likened it to the Tower of Babel event too. Just that I didn't see the descent of the Holy Spirit on the night of Pentecost as also having a unifying aspect. The book of Acts is a very traumatic story.
The wind of Babel and the apostolic Pentacost: the same one that was blowing over the face of the deep in Genesis 1 (and, by the way, Day 4 is the first fruits of the plant kingdom, isn’t it? Followed by a blessing of fruitfulness for the animals); the same wind that dried the land as the flood receded (just prior to the Noahic covenant); the same wind that parted the Red Sea (just before the Siniatic covenant).
This was a great universal history episode! All of the small moments of shared epiphany made it the more authentic and engaging. There was this "on the fly" vibe going on. Heh.
Idolatry doesn’t just result in an excess of separation, it also results in an excess of unity. That’s what all the incest is about. As well as the sodomy in Soddom and Gomorrah. The tower itself is an excess of unity which breeds disunity.
Globohomo is pure excess of unity.
Great discussion that I'll be thinking about for months to come.
I would love to see you discus of how this relates to the "abomination that causes desolation" in the end times spoken of in Danial and the gospels. This abomination seems to be a wrong sacrifice that leads to scattering and judgement at the ultimate scale.
Wonderful episode! Thank you both!!
There are ancient stories from southern Africa about animals gaining a fear of man at the time that a vapour canopy environment broke down. Which you would imagine would cause a flood.
37:52 just a few thoughts on the drunkeness symbolism with Abraham. He falls into a deep sleep (ekstasis in the LXX) after the sacrifice. Also, the episode with Hagar immediately proceeds. Maybe some parallels with Noah and Cannan as his ofspring.
greatbtalk.. redeeming Babel, redeming the tower into lighthouse..
We gentile Christians still follow the Torah, however, there are commandments in the Torah directed only towards Israelites and others that are directed towards both Israelites and gentiles. That's the basis for the decision at the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.
109:12 "You're gonna celebrate Pentecost whether or not you want to." 💯
The mystical city of God consistently stresses the importance of our disposition inorder to receive wisdom or partake of heaven
I accidentally bought tickets to Jonathan’s event yesterday thinking it was online😂 It was money well spent but I hope i didn’t take someone’s seat. Oops.
They're going to release a video recording just FYI
@@ArmchairAnaniasdid they say when?
@@willhedges6639 They didn't mention, just that it was being recorded and intended to release a video. I'd follow up with the Maliotis Center
Richard, home run with this one. Thank you for an edifying and encouraging episode. And to Jonathan for hosting! Question: what about Nicodemus?
Like many people, Richard seems to believe Pentecost was the day the Law was given at Mt. Sinai. However, in studying the Dead Sea Scrolls, the community called themselves the Sons of Light and Pentecost wasn't just the Feast of Weeks, they called it the Feast of the Renewal of the Covenant, believing that on the day of Pentecost, the Covenant was made between the people and God (Exodus 19:8: "All that the Lord has spoken, we will do."). Only after the people said this thus entering into the Covenant, was the law given on the Third Day.
Genesis 1: first God divides, then He multiplies. He separated dark from light, the waters above from the waters below, the land from the seas...then he began to multiply creatures, plants, etc. With special blessings to "be fruitful and multiply".
15:15 I have NEVER heard of that rainbow thing. :) hilarious. I've heard the weapon point, but never the wedding ring.
Always love your chats guys ❤
history meaning story of the people makes so much sense i was wondering why some languages have history and story as the same word
One of the best! Loved it all! ❤️💙
Looking forward to this
I now know why I like you guys " I am Dumb" great realization, I live there everyday. Looking to move forward, you guys are helping in that process. Thank you.
Richard throws shade at proddie weddings🤣
Great talk! 🙂
I'm here for this.
About Abraham’s cutting rite, ANE scholars have shown that it was not an uncommon ritual at that time. It was used when a superior (a king or other powerful person) made a covenant with a lesser person or people. The thrust of it is, if I don’t keep this covenant with you, may I be cut asunder. It’s a symbolic representation of the consequences of covenant-breaking.
Re 3 Esdras, if you are Anglican you also have it in your Bible (named 1 Esdras and part of the deuterocanon) along with the Russian Orthodox.
It is ironic and a bit funny that Richard told the story of when he was in a Protestant church, they forgot that Easter was the next week and someone suggested that they just put off the celebration for a month. There is a provision in Leviticus that if someone was unclean or away and could not keep Passover, they could keep it 30 days later, the following month.
great topic....looking forward to this!
Interestingly, the covenant-drunkenness-incest nexus can also be seen in several anti-Christian polemics of the early Roman period. It seems like an arbitrary accusation, but makes some kind of sense if it fits in this pattern. See, e.g., from Chapter 9 of the Octavius by Minucius Felix:
"And of their banqueting it is well known all men speak of it everywhere; even the speech of our Cirtensian testifies to it. On a solemn day they assemble at the feast, with all their children, sisters, mothers, people of every sex and of every age. There, after much feasting, when the fellowship has grown warm, and the fervour of incestuous lust has grown hot with drunkenness, a dog that has been tied to the chandelier is provoked, by throwing a small piece of offal beyond the length of a line by which he is bound, to rush and spring; and thus the conscious light being overturned and extinguished in the shameless darkness, the connections of abominable lust involve them in the uncertainty of fate. Although not all in fact, yet in consciousness all are alike incestuous, since by the desire of all of them everything is sought for which can happen in the act of each individual."
Indentured servitude was based on Jubilee years, 7 years of servitude and release was the Jubilee years. A Jubilee year was also when all debts would be forgiven.
Cheers! Thank you!
So, Paul may have been referring to the Book of Jubilees when he said “Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. Galatians 3:19.”
49:13 Psyche & Orual “Till we have Faces”
Thank you!
15:50 that's why both sets of tables are kept together.
When you were discussing the covenant and the cutting of the animals in half and God walking through, I couldn’t help but think of the Isrealites crossing through the Red Sea. Do you think there’s any significance or connection there?
This brings to my mind the idolatrous nature of manufactured glossolalia as practiced by some Christians. Just a random thought…
I love this so much ❤
Tower of Babbel could be lighthouse on a shore to allow world domination by sea empire. Just saying.
The wind blows where it will.
Excellent and exciting talk, thanks for this new insights. We obviously should study the apocrypha more sedulously.
Just one thought or idea regarding the motif of cutting of the animals in two and God walking through the divided parts when making the covenant with Abraham (risking to sound heretical :-) ) --- The motif of covenant closely connected with the motif of sleep, the danger of drunkenness and - maybe - incest (which in Abraham’s case is externalised in the parallel story of Lot.) The cutting and separation of the animal's flesh as ritual part of the covenant might also refer to the central meaning of separation of man (child) from his parents in order to become mature and responsible for a new (marital) covenant. The given "one-flesh-relation" of natural kinship is pointing towards 1. separation (from mother and father, but also from brother and sister) and to 2. dispersion; and thus to 3. multiplication - via becoming one flesh with the foreign or alien person of the other sex. One needs to be separated in order to be gathered in a new formation, quality or constitution. In Genesis 2 God himself is doing the first of all separations by opening the side of (the sleeping!) Adam - cutting - and creating a new, original female; God is protecting this vulnerable separation, and He himself is initiating and guaranteeing the new covenantal unity between Ish and Isha. Dispersion and multiplication is THE profound dynamics in all creational prospering. Every form of ‘recurvation’ (incest) is prohibited and forbidden - because it is in profound enmity and denial to existence and vitality as such. Similarly, we can read the story of Babel as the prohibition of any spiritual, cultural and territorial ‘recurvation’ or clotting of the human race/population, which is a genuin revolt against the command of dispersion in idolatrous self-sufficiency. The covenantal promise to Abraham is to grow into many nations (intended disparity); even future Israel will become many tribes and also being scattered into the nations - whereas the task of recollecting, gathering and uniting those is the preserve of the Messiah, the New Adam, who is both: Goel (kinsman) and Groom.
Cool commentary!
Fantastic to see, in real
time, God Give Jonathan the revelation about Lot's drunkenness!! Thank You Lord!!!
At 49:00 mark, Jonathan you kinda touch on this, but people *HEAR* in their own language. Everyone wants to gloss over this very important detail. It does not say they were speaking in each person's language. It says they *HEARD* them speaking....
I propose to Richard (and Jonathan) that what was occurring was the spiritual gift of *interpretation of tongues* in action. And that those that thought they were drunk were not operating in the gift of interpretation of tongues, so they heard it as nonsensical.
This also explains how all the people heard them in their own languages. If the gift of interpretation was operating, what I say in tongues, one person heard it in Hebrew, one heard in Aramaic, one heard in Greek, one heard as nonsensical (that guy didn't have the gift of interpretation ).
At Pentecost, in Acts, God scatters them like seed to bear fruit for the harvest.
25:45 there is a similar Midrash about Satan teaching this to Moses
Which version of the Book of Jubilees do you recommend?
Thanks
Anyone else hoping The Way That The Wind Works drops that album, Pneuma, soon?
Very interesting & informative & also
1. Matthew chapter 24
2. We are already in the tribulation
3. A certain person (we don’t say the name) will bring a False peace
4. Jesus is the Cause of Armageddon
5. True Christians will be extracted before that war
6. Jesus’ return is with vengeance
No
@jonathanpageau Do you know where one can find these rabbinical prophesies (about celebrating the eight day/Sunday)?
I have an honest question for anyone who cares to answer, and I thank whomever takes the time to respond
Without going too deep into the woods, I’m autistic, and I’ve been drawn back to Christ recently, and long story short I’m looking into Orthodox Christianity. I’m not sure where I land yet, but I went to a Great Vespers service this weekend, and looking into other avenues of knowledge.
On to my question. Since Saturday evening, I’ve kinda felt like I’ve been walking through a dream world. This is similar but different to some experiences I have as an autistic adult (dislocation, depersonalization, etc) I’m wondering if anyone who started looking into Orthodoxy has had any similar experience, or if it’s something I can just assign to my neurodivergence. And if it’s not the ND, any other insights would be welcome. God bless.
Hello! Thank you both so much! I have a question that’s really bugging me and maybe you can put me in the right direction! Somewhere in the video you mentioned that jubilees is referred to in either the bible or the New Testament. Could you refer me to a specific texts where jubilees is either alluded to or quoted? This would be super helpful! Thank you very much.
I’ve been poking around the Internet and can’t find any source for Jubilee, quotations or allusions in the New Testament. So your help is greatly appreciated!
The "just to chase away the flies" explanation seems to be completely blind to "Beelzebub" as a name of a spiritual entity named in Scripture, besides flies' connection with death and decay in general.
It's going down!
You say Babel "is obviously Babylon". The first city in the world was Eridu and the Tower of Babel seems to be the unfinished ziggurat of Eridu
Babel and Babylon are the same word in the Hebrew (Babylon is a transliteration of the hebrew in greek)
33:44 seen as the eventual "pure speech" in Zephaniah
Can it be possible that celebration is a some sort of macro ritual????
In Harold Ramis’ Year One, Abraham is framed out to be drunk when he gets the idea for circumcision, funny enough
Where does Christ quote himself in Jubilee?
Apropos of nothing, we can see that rainbows are circular just with a mass amount of water droplets in the air - e.g. near a waterfall, with a sprinkler - and the sunlight from behind us. Very cool
1:05:38 the story of Elijah reviving the son of the widow makes sense now. It was an exocism & inbreathing of the Holy Spirit
He talks too fast and it‘s difficult to digest. Perhaps interesting for people who are already deep into these subjects. I‘m following Jonathan’s channel for quite some time, but this had a strange flavour.
It's to chase away the lord of the flies
aw dang, I said this while i was watching then Richard said the same thing lol 😂 now i look silly.
Why the disgusting AI generated image for the thumbnail and pass it as if it is real?
38:26 needs to be compared with Ismael's laughter in (Gen 21:9)
Is there Jonathan and others making a great holy movement? if they are, where is it? and how can you get in touch?
What do you mean by this?
He mentioned the path forward on one of his video at Ralston College is making a 'great holy movement' much like reviving a holy city.
@@DavidBalila Him and Richard Rohlin are both devout Orthodox Christians, so I am assuming that the holy movement he would be referring to is being united to THE holy movement of the Orthodox Church
@@ryanbutela ahhh, ye that makes sense. How do you get intouch with that church?
@@DavidBalila look up your nearest Eastern Orthodox Church and speak to the priest!
I don't think Ur was after Babel. I think they existed simultaneously. That is the timeline in the book of Jasher. Nimrod was king, Abraham was born in Ur; he was a Chaldean. At his birth, Nimrod's priests saw a sign in the sky after visiting the celebration of Abram's birth. It was an ominous sign that indicated his lineage would be the death of nimrod. They went and told Nimrod who then ordered Abram's father to kill Abraham. He offered over one of his servant's babies under the guise that it was Abraham and Abraham was raised in a cave until he was ten when he went and studied the priesthood under Shem and Noah. And it was Esau (Abraham's grandson) that killed Nimrod while he was hunting one day. He had to flee from nimrod's men which is why he was exhausted and hastily gave away his inheritance to Jacob for a bowl of soup. He thought he was going to die. It must have been something for him to kill Nimrod. Supposedly he was not only a giant but he wore the special skins God made for Adam and Eve after they left Eden. These skins were stolen out of the ark from noah, by ham and passed to cush, who passed them to nimrod. They gave him special powers.
Don’t forget to attend to the birds when discussing Genesis 15!!! It’s the proper joining of heaven and earth that God manifests. The 6th day creatures are divided or “worked.” The 5th day creatures (birds) of peace contrasted with meat eating raptures are not divided! It is the proper combination of heaven (peaceful birds) and worked/divided earth (heifer/goat/ram) where God manifests Himself. 3 land animals divided into 6 pieces, two pieces of heaven that are the same but differentiated (pigeon and turtle dove). 7 and 8. To Jesus Christ the glory.
So symbolically, the pentecostal Church is the final form of protestant churches - it comes after the tower of babel that was the protestant traditions collapsed.
It does not say Genesis that the world will not be destroyed again. It specifies that the world will not be destroyed by the flooding of water again.
Just to be clear is "Third Esdras" that Richard talks about here also titled "1 Esdras" in English translations? ("First" and "Second" Esdras being titled "Ezra" and "Nehemiah" respectively.) Anyway just to confirm the Third Esdras being referred to here begins something like "Josiah kept the Passover...", right?
The book is apparently known as “3 Esdras” in the Slavonic Bible, however it’s also known (confusingly) as 2 Esdras, the Ezra Apocalypse, and is included in the Appendix to the Latin Vulgate Bible as 4 Esdras. It opens with a genealogy of Ezra, followed by ‘The word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Go, declare to my people their evil deeds and to their children the iniquities that they have committed against me,”’
@@EmilyTodicescu Thanks, that is confusing. haha. Yes my ESV Apocrypha calls the book with the
text you quoted "3 Esdras" like you said.
@@knightrider585No worries. Yes it’s bizarre how that book has so many names!
Scrolling through TH-cam I read “The End of Bagel” 😅
What’s the hidden meaning in hamstringing horses and breaking a heifer’s neck? Why does the almighty not even spare Canaanite children?