Join me and Richard for the first course on the Divine Comedy. The live course starts May 8th but you can follow at your own pace. Dante’s Inferno: www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses-pages/dantes-inferno
As incredible as all of Jonathan's other work is, his collaborations with Richard Rohlin have to be my favorite. There is something that always seems to awaken feelings of home inside me when I listen to them talk.
Thank you so very much for this! I am always very interested in hearing perspectives on the Comedy. I had hoped that the wonderful Jonathan Pageau would speak on it. Even better with Richard Rohlin! Thank you both, gentlemen!
“Every one of those words rang true, and glowed like burning coals. Pouring off of every page, like it was written in my soul, from me to you…Tangled up in Blue!” -Bob Dylan
This past winter I attended a Salvador Dali exhibit of his Divine Comedy paintings. It was remarkable and very emotional. I recommend people look into it.
I’m going to say this every video: Universal History Elementary through High School Homeschool Curriculum please! Give me anything. Just show them these videos? Create a series of illustrated history/literature readers? 😁. K thanks!
35:22 People are too afraid of hierarchy nowadays. But hierarchy in principle is natural. There is hierarchy of saints in Heaven just as there is hierarchy of angels. Even many Christians don't think of that nowadays.
Best of luck with it, and no bitterness intended but I thought I’d share my impression. I’m already a subscriber to the symbolic world, and I’m sure you’ve done the cost/profit analysis on this but $190 for what amounts to 5 TH-cam video discussion seems like a lot to me given there’s no back and forth in real life with you guys in a seminar type way. Maybe if I was 20 years older and didn’t have a mortgage to pay… currently, I would pay in $40-70 range. Just as a single point of data for you! As I say, best of luck with it!
In this book, as far as I remember from what I read way back when, Dante didn't really pick the emperor over the pope. What he argued for the pope to relinquish political power in favor of something more akin Eastern Rome's relationship between Emperor and Patriarch, where one held temporal and the other spiritual power. A sensible and very rational proposition for sure, but nonetheless influenced by his italian political rivalry with the Pope in Rome.
The podcast I Might Believe in Faeries did a really good episode on this called Flower World and True Myth with the authors of the book Guadalupe and the Flower World Prophecy: How God Prepared the Americas for Conversion Before the Lady Appeared.
Love this series boys. I remember in Enoch he also sees like these giant cavern like things and Abel is there crying out to God for vengeance against Cain so he sees where righteous people are held in like a purgatory as well, and it’s definitely not heaven, along with where the fallen angels are in Tartarus and I think maybe the Nephilim the Rephaim are there, can’t remember. Enoch’s journey to the different realms is similar to Dante’s and he has guides as well, I think Rafael and Uriel maybe a 3rd, never thought about that before.
In Inferno the sinner tells the Boatman(Charon, another classical figure!) where in hell they belong; in Heaven everyone goes to where they belong, as far as they can, and everyone knows where they belong in Heaven, too. You're right, this is the greatest book in the West.
I read the Divine Comedy in 1982-83 as a 14 year old teen in Quebec. I think in some way it became embedded into my subconscious and helped with navigating the life. It was formative. In hindsight, I think it should be a must read for all teens. Forget the other BS
This is an amazing interview. You should update the title of it to include the words "Dante Divine Comedy". I had trouble finding it again due to the generic title.
Paradiso is also less read because the Italian is so immensely difficult! The language Dante uses in the Commedia changes through the poem. The Inferno is relatively straightforward, Purgatorio a bit more convoluted - but Paradiso! The ideas and the imagery and the language itself are something else. Some things are so beautiful you force yourself to struggle through them, but it's very difficult - especially if you don't have the training. I've read it several times; if I confess all, Inferno many times, Purgatorio several times - and Paradiso maybe twice. Looking forward to your class; I think you're going to help me.
I really like Anthony Esolen’s translation. This is part of the Everyman’s Library with Italian on the left page and English on the right. I kept a sticky flag in the end notes to keep track of the specific items
Yes. He's gone through the Comedy multiple times with different groups of people. Usually around a campfire in his backyard. I'm blessed to have gone through it with him this past year. Amazing time and learned a lot. Definitely worth the money to join the class if you're able to.
Great video guys, thank you! If there's ever an opportunity on your end, please do a series on "The Five Books of the Lives and Deeds of Gargantua and Pantagruel" by François Rabelais! It's such a rich work of literature and it's charged with so much symbolism.
Universal history going up in trends 🎶 Symbols left and right, bright blue and red 🎵 Tra-di-tions, and literature, 🎶 Ali-ghi-eri, pull my Devil Trigger 🎵🔥
I'm constantly amazed by reading the comments on these videos, especially those by Christians on Christian topics. We (Christians) should be ashamed. We rage at each other over fine points of theology, as important as they are, while routinely failing utterly to practice Christ's fundamental commandments to love each other and our enemies. We are so puffed up and certain in our tribe's positions. The good news (pun intended) is that Jesus is infinitely patient and quite used to our comical hubris. The bad news is that from the outside looking in, we're too often just another interest group, shrieking that we're right about our rights. Honestly, if we agreed to all stop talking, publically at least, and instead performed a single Christian action each day, without credit, we could transform the world...i.e. He would transform it through us, as has always been His plan. Right? Im talking to myself as much as anyone, of course...but I don't think Im alone on this.
It doesn't integrate everything, what had been before. There is only one little reference to Lancelot and Guinevere, but nothing else about the celtic Matter of Britain. And there isn't the slightest hint to Snorri Sturluson and the Edda, which has been written nearly a hundred years before.
I wonder what you think about the famous book by Padre Miguel Asín Palacios "La escatología musulmana en la divina comedia" (1919). (Islamic escathology in the Divine Comedy). I think the influence is more indirect than Palacios thinks, but the parallels are indeed striking. Guénon, after reading this book, dismissed the direct influence as well, if I recall correctly, since Dante had added the "exoteric" muslim philosophers in the Limbo but he did not seem to be aware of the "esoteric" ones. Speaking from Spain, I wonder if you are aware that Dante's wishes DID come true by the time of Emperor Charles V - He basically sacked Rome and, according to some Spanish traditionalist Catholic priest who is on TH-cam at least, the counter-reformation was basically done because of that. The Emperor did, after all , "clean house" (although more in the sense of the time of the Reformation, and the Renaissance). It was already impossible to return to the Medieval Ages in the West by that time, and maybe it was not perfect, but the excesses of the Renaissance were really done away with. But this is something very interesting to analyze, as Charles V was very Catholic himself, and always submitted to the Pope in terms of spiritual authority.
"The Donation of Constantine" "Someone forged the thing" Que Patrick Craig Truglia "The Iberians made the thing to stop kings from messing with Bishops but then the Carolingians found out about that useful argument and set Athanasius the Librarian up to go bananas with it to use the Pope as a political tool but the Papacy got too big and that backfired big time."
The peak of "troubadour love" tradition happens to coinside with the rise of the Albigensian heresy, the cathars in Provence. This idea/ tradition is highly gnostic.
We definetly shouldn't equate the troubadur poetry with Catharism. The poetry was actually too life affirming for the gnostics. They were in some sense a repsonse to the lavishness of the courts in Languedoc with their rejection of the material world.
@@TheGeneralGrievous19 I agree. But the second was undoubtedly influenced by the first. And it's not surprising that the crusade came to the same area that was most famous for its amour courtois poetry.
There is way more to the “Donation of Constantine” (e.g. even people in the east used it, because everyone thought it was authentic). Putting in a plug against the Papacy made this groaning.
We would be remiss in a conversation on "Universal History" not to note that Dante not only integrates what came before him in the "Western tradition" but draws heavily on the Islamic tradition. Given its centrality in Western literature it is fascinating to note that, as Spanish priest and scholar of the Arabic language Miguel Asin Palacios shows in his book Islam and the Divine Comedy, Dante was deeply indebted to Muslim literature on the ascension of Prophet Muhammad and the Divine Comedy shows striking similarities to the descriptions of the Prophet's ascent as well as his vision of the realms of hell. The text by great early Sufi al-Qushayri had been widely circulated in Muslim Spain and was translated into Latin by a scribe of Spanish king Alphonso X in 1264. Of course, in the Comedy Dante places the Prophet amongst the schismatics, but it is truly fascinating to note that the structure of the comedy and many of its details were drawn from his ascension. In a time of such continued antagonism between the Muslim world and the West I feel this thread of historical exchange is a fruitful place for dialogue.
So if the man cursed Jupiter, why would that make him end up in Hell? I could think of many reasons why he would be in Hell, but cursing Jupiter, a demon, I don't understand why that would be one of them..unless it is his motive behind it..Because for all he knew, Jupiter was a true God, not a demon, and the very fact that he cursed who he thought was God, his motive, was enough to put him in Hell..not the fact that he was, or is, an actual demon..thats the only reason i can think of.. Because cursing a demon in and of itself, correct me if im wrong, would be a good thing..God bless Mary protect +++
@@DaviRenania don't get me wrong..the Divine Comedy is a great Christian, a great Catholic work..I was just trying to understand this part a bit more..God bless Mary protect +++
You realize the greatness of this poem when woke critics find fault in the author for being " "judgemental " or "authoritarian" There hasn't been "epic" poerty since "woke" or "critical theory emerged" You need a grand vision to create great poetry
Its not quite epic poetry, but Ezra Pound's Cantos were influenced by many historical and cultural works for millennia. I think you probably need a Master's in multiple fields to fully understand it.
C.S. Lewis also believed he'll (hell) was locked from the inside. Spoiler alert--Universal history transfigures into universal salvation; a restoration of all in the All.
They did not need to mention everything and I think there is no evidence that he was inspired by the Miraj tradition apart from some similarities. S story about a descent into the underworld or ascent into the heavens are universal.
"But this story [the Christian story] is supreme; and it is true. Art has been verified. God is the Lord, of angels, and of men-and of elves. Legend and History have met and fused." ~ J.R.R. Tolkien
Richard, please learn how to focus your talking and get to the point. I'm half an hour in, and you've not even started yet, just lots of haphazard random facts that weren't necessary or could've been said in about 5 minutes at the most. Americans have this habit of just talking endlessly.
I think talking about the changes in the West compered to East as all about the pope and bishops having land is limited. I believe the Church became to dependednt and controlled by the state both in the East & in the West. There was this whole idea of the local rulers apointing bishops, ans emperors apointing patriarchs. The development of papal supremacy & the libertas ecclesiae movement allowed the Church in the West to become independent again - how it was in the early Church. It also was a source of inspirations for other groupa striving for their rights, and ultimetly the idea of natural/human rights that firts apeared in the medieval canon law of the Western Church in 12th century. I personally don't think the East had a right way of looking at things - without having a center & top of the hierarchy in pope, the local states often gained a lot of inlfuence & control over the clergy. We see how it works in Russia & Ukraine nowadays. The patriarchs of Constantinople were subservient to the will of Roman Emperors. I've seen some Orthodox geniuenly supporting caesaropapism.
21:06 Ehhhh... he is... but you could say otherwise. He puts people like Gioachinno da Fiore in Heaven in defiance to the Church that, decades before Dante's birth, had his doctrines expressly deemed heresy in the Council of Lateran IV. Maybe Dante believed the council was politically motivated, but again he was an initiated member of the Fedeli d'Amore which was probably a gnostic fraternity. And in the top of Paradiso, Dante uses a lot of Valentinan terminology, as if he is refering to gnostic aeons... and Beatrice is obviously Sophia. Also, there is an eerie lack of crosses in the poem, even atop Mount Purgatory where a devout Roman Catholic would add the utmost christian symbol: the cross on the mountain -- instead he uses it to make an allegory of the destruction of the Church in good joachimite fashion.
All this does is reinforce how hard people work not to be Roman Catholic. It’s so funny and also cowardly to constantly talk about the middle ages as if that has anything to do with Eastern orthodoxy and then talk about Dante and just skip over the Catholic Church. “I love hierarchy. The universe is a hierarchy. Your body is a hierarchy” “Except the church we don’t have a head. Just first among equals. Popes aren’t real”
That's a stretch to just paint Orthodox like Protestants and say that we don't like hierarchy or that we reject the Pope solely because of that. First among equals was a title your Popes accepted for a thousand years before the schism. Your own church admits this.
The Primacy of Rome isn't disputed. Its the extraordinary powers he has accumulated to himself is the problem. The church has a head, its Christ. He is still here, ruling in the midst of his enemies.
@@Christopher-ow6lr Catholics very much believe that Christ is the Head of the Church. But we also understand that the pope is the main Vicar of Christ being his main representative. It flows from right interpretation of Matthew 16 & the paralles to it's prefigurement in Isaiah 22 as the Asher Al Habayit that represented the king in Israel. We believe that the Catholic understanding of the papal primacy is natural development of the doctrine since the Apostolic Age, analogical to how the doctrine of the Trinity developed until the Christological councils like Nicea or Chalcedon. From our perspective the Orthodox understaning is underdeveloped. It is also important to distinguish between actual Catholic teaching on the Papacy from the hyperpapalism that some Catholics wrongly ascribe to.
@@Christopher-ow6lrChris this is a mischaracterization. I would just consider questioning all the misconceptions around Catholicism. I don’t blame anyone for questioning the papacy. Once you see that the Catholic Church is the universal punching bag you also start to wonder if maybe it’s convenient to misrepresent it by darker forces. It’s a hard pill to swallow believe me
I would never call this 14th century reductionist propaganda as the greatest work of western canon, It is obviously important and beautiful poem, but Dante and his worldview could be role-model for fascists not for Christians
@@TheGeneralGrievous19 You are right of course it was 14th century. To be clear I do not say that Dante was a fascist, because it would be anachronistic, but I believe that "Divine Comedy" was written in vain, in contra to his political opponents and philosophers he disliked. It shows a worlview of a egocentric person, who hates a lot of people and see himself as better then them. He judges them and imagine them in hell among biblical and mythological sinners, later puts himself on a pedestaI among saints, angels and heroes he gloryfies, in my opinion only reductionist person would think like that. I see it as a kind of manifesto, of a brilliant but very sad and angry human, but thats of course only my interpretation. Saying all that, I still agree with all my heart, that it is a masterpiece and undoubtly very important part of western canon, my comment above was just expression of my concern, because Im not sure it should be treated as some revelation of truth and morals, or at least people should be careful with doing that.
@@ElonMuskrat-my8jy I do not say that Dante was fascist or racist, cause like I said before, it would be anchronistic, but he believed that Christendom (and all humanity) should be controled by a heavy hand of centralized authority and He clearly divided people as good, valuable - like himself and bad, unpure - different then himself, eg. Muslims or Ghibellines. So it's not surprising that he became "the bard" of Mussolini, his supporters and now their descendants. I do not think that we should agree with italian fascists and treat his work as their own because they claim it, just like we do not treat Nietzshes work as nazi, all I say is that worship of Dante's art among fascists is not coincidental and that it has a lot of potential for reductionist interpretation and there is no perspective of the world more beneficial for any totalitarian system then scape-goating reductionism, which is basically what Alighieri did through the whole of his magnum opus. Sorry if my english is chaotic, Im not native, but I try to be understandable. Cheers.
Join me and Richard for the first course on the Divine Comedy. The live course starts May 8th but you can follow at your own pace. Dante’s Inferno: www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses-pages/dantes-inferno
As incredible as all of Jonathan's other work is, his collaborations with Richard Rohlin have to be my favorite. There is something that always seems to awaken feelings of home inside me when I listen to them talk.
The Commedia changed my life. Extraordinary work.
Same. It took me 6mo to read it on my own using a free online Columbia course. Absolutely rocked by world.
I was blown away by the sophistication of the Divine Comedy. Truly a work of literary genius.
Thank You for the discussion about Dante & the Divine Comedy! ❤ ❤ ❤
Thank you so very much for this! I am always very interested in hearing perspectives on the Comedy. I had hoped that the wonderful Jonathan Pageau would speak on it. Even better with Richard Rohlin! Thank you both, gentlemen!
He has two other (older) published talks on Dante, I’d highly recommend checking out
I'm excited to see this. Loved Richard on Andrea with the bangs.
“Every one of those words rang true, and glowed like burning coals. Pouring off of every page, like it was written in my soul, from me to you…Tangled up in Blue!” -Bob Dylan
I soooo wish i could afford the course, this talk was so curiosity stirring!
@alwynraynott7303Jonathan is not a grifter. This is just an orthodox man giving lectures to orthodox people.
@alwynraynott7303 Pageau is not a drifter nor is he a TH-camr first. You have it reversed.
This past winter I attended a Salvador Dali exhibit of his Divine Comedy paintings. It was remarkable and very emotional. I recommend people look into it.
I’m going to say this every video: Universal History Elementary through High School Homeschool Curriculum please! Give me anything. Just show them these videos? Create a series of illustrated history/literature readers? 😁. K thanks!
Excellent idea! K-12 level education for homeschooling. I think I'd pay for that.
35:22 People are too afraid of hierarchy nowadays. But hierarchy in principle is natural. There is hierarchy of saints in Heaven just as there is hierarchy of angels. Even many Christians don't think of that nowadays.
They were taught to be rebellious and hate tradition as Americans, as Protestants…..hierarchy of family, church…
Best of luck with it, and no bitterness intended but I thought I’d share my impression. I’m already a subscriber to the symbolic world, and I’m sure you’ve done the cost/profit analysis on this but $190 for what amounts to 5 TH-cam video discussion seems like a lot to me given there’s no back and forth in real life with you guys in a seminar type way. Maybe if I was 20 years older and didn’t have a mortgage to pay… currently, I would pay in $40-70 range. Just as a single point of data for you! As I say, best of luck with it!
And so the journey begins..
Fun fact: Dante Alighieri wrote another treatise, De Monarchia, where he explains his support of the emperor over the pope.
whaaaaaat. Anti-popery noooooo. It was so fashionable at the time....Free Masonry grew. the end.
The pope that sided with his political enemies and exiled him, and the emperor he hoped would overthrow his enemies and let him go home.
In this book, as far as I remember from what I read way back when, Dante didn't really pick the emperor over the pope. What he argued for the pope to relinquish political power in favor of something more akin Eastern Rome's relationship between Emperor and Patriarch, where one held temporal and the other spiritual power.
A sensible and very rational proposition for sure, but nonetheless influenced by his italian political rivalry with the Pope in Rome.
Just ordered the course! Can’t wait
If you guys do an episode on Mexico you should check out the flower world prophecy and Guadalupe.
The podcast I Might Believe in Faeries did a really good episode on this called Flower World and True Myth with the authors of the book Guadalupe and the Flower World Prophecy: How God Prepared the Americas for Conversion Before the Lady Appeared.
Love this series boys. I remember in Enoch he also sees like these giant cavern like things and Abel is there crying out to God for vengeance against Cain so he sees where righteous people are held in like a purgatory as well, and it’s definitely not heaven, along with where the fallen angels are in Tartarus and I think maybe the Nephilim the Rephaim are there, can’t remember. Enoch’s journey to the different realms is similar to Dante’s and he has guides as well, I think Rafael and Uriel maybe a 3rd, never thought about that before.
Oh, I'd love to hear Richard speak on italian history! That'd be so interesting, and maybe helpful🙏
Thanks for this.
Can’t wait! 🌚☄️❤️💫
In Inferno the sinner tells the Boatman(Charon, another classical figure!) where in hell they belong; in Heaven everyone goes to where they belong, as far as they can, and everyone knows where they belong in Heaven, too. You're right, this is the greatest book in the West.
I read the Divine Comedy in 1982-83 as a 14 year old teen in Quebec. I think in some way it became embedded into my subconscious and helped with navigating the life. It was formative.
In hindsight, I think it should be a must read for all teens. Forget the other BS
I read all 3 books recently and I wish I had this context.
This is an amazing interview. You should update the title of it to include the words "Dante Divine Comedy". I had trouble finding it again due to the generic title.
Paradiso is also less read because the Italian is so immensely difficult! The language Dante uses in the Commedia changes through the poem. The Inferno is relatively straightforward, Purgatorio a bit more convoluted - but Paradiso! The ideas and the imagery and the language itself are something else. Some things are so beautiful you force yourself to struggle through them, but it's very difficult - especially if you don't have the training. I've read it several times; if I confess all, Inferno many times, Purgatorio several times - and Paradiso maybe twice. Looking forward to your class; I think you're going to help me.
Is there a recommended translation/edition for the Comedy?
Richard reccomends the John Ciardi translation. There is a 3-in-1 edition and another with all individual books separated.
I really like Anthony Esolen’s translation. This is part of the Everyman’s Library with Italian on the left page and English on the right. I kept a sticky flag in the end notes to keep track of the specific items
Bravo very nice!
Hi Johnathan, love all your work! Would you kindly do Don Quixote, I can't wait! Thank you.
Great video 🎉
Will you guys do a universal history video of Armenia and it’s ancient symbolisms? From their identity with Noah and the ark etc?
Is Richard some kind of Dante savant? Such a great talk. Looking forward with gratitude to more from both of you.
Yes. He's gone through the Comedy multiple times with different groups of people. Usually around a campfire in his backyard. I'm blessed to have gone through it with him this past year. Amazing time and learned a lot. Definitely worth the money to join the class if you're able to.
Great video guys, thank you!
If there's ever an opportunity on your end, please do a series on "The Five Books of the Lives and Deeds of Gargantua and Pantagruel" by François Rabelais! It's such a rich work of literature and it's charged with so much symbolism.
Universal history going up in trends 🎶
Symbols left and right, bright blue and red 🎵
Tra-di-tions, and literature, 🎶
Ali-ghi-eri, pull my Devil Trigger 🎵🔥
🙏
What is your guy's thoughts on Parzival by Wolfram Eschenbach. In my own medieval readings that is the one that made most impact
This great! I wish you were partnered more with dailywire because I loved your end of the World Series on there!
Thanks
I'm constantly amazed by reading the comments on these videos, especially those by Christians on Christian topics. We (Christians) should be ashamed. We rage at each other over fine points of theology, as important as they are, while routinely failing utterly to practice Christ's fundamental commandments to love each other and our enemies. We are so puffed up and certain in our tribe's positions.
The good news (pun intended) is that Jesus is infinitely patient and quite used to our comical hubris. The bad news is that from the outside looking in, we're too often just another interest group, shrieking that we're right about our rights. Honestly, if we agreed to all stop talking, publically at least, and instead performed a single Christian action each day, without credit, we could transform the world...i.e. He would transform it through us, as has always been His plan.
Right?
Im talking to myself as much as anyone, of course...but I don't think Im alone on this.
I converted because of Dante
You had me at butt trumpets 23:41.
“There are going to be butt trumpets” sign me up! 😂
Hey, what do you think of Gene Wolfe's Book the New Sun? People need to know.
In the center is where sincronización happens
I would like to see geographic pricing for this, I live in Brazil and don't have a lot of money to spare with literature courses 😅
Hey, another Brazillian!
Which translation of Dante's Comedy should I read?
John Ciardi
I would like to know what their favorites are too. There are so many!
“Butt trumpets” I like how the inferno is basically Monty Python
🌹
Shahnameh - The Epic Book of Kings is a Persian poem. It is the longest poem ever written.
Dante: the greatest poet since Homer.
It doesn't integrate everything, what had been before. There is only one little reference to Lancelot and Guinevere, but nothing else about the celtic Matter of Britain. And there isn't the slightest hint to Snorri Sturluson and the Edda, which has been written nearly a hundred years before.
L
The Divine Comedy was good, but there also other works, such as Erasmus' "In Praise of Folly" that are just as genius.
Pius Aeneas - Dutiful Aeneas. Obligatory (Obligation fulfilling) Aeneas.
"all the trains ran on time" is crazy
I wonder what you think about the famous book by Padre Miguel Asín Palacios "La escatología musulmana en la divina comedia" (1919). (Islamic escathology in the Divine Comedy). I think the influence is more indirect than Palacios thinks, but the parallels are indeed striking.
Guénon, after reading this book, dismissed the direct influence as well, if I recall correctly, since Dante had added the "exoteric" muslim philosophers in the Limbo but he did not seem to be aware of the "esoteric" ones.
Speaking from Spain, I wonder if you are aware that Dante's wishes DID come true by the time of Emperor Charles V - He basically sacked Rome and, according to some Spanish traditionalist Catholic priest who is on TH-cam at least, the counter-reformation was basically done because of that. The Emperor did, after all , "clean house" (although more in the sense of the time of the Reformation, and the Renaissance).
It was already impossible to return to the Medieval Ages in the West by that time, and maybe it was not perfect, but the excesses of the Renaissance were really done away with.
But this is something very interesting to analyze, as Charles V was very Catholic himself, and always submitted to the Pope in terms of spiritual authority.
"The Donation of Constantine" "Someone forged the thing" Que Patrick Craig Truglia "The Iberians made the thing to stop kings from messing with Bishops but then the Carolingians found out about that useful argument and set Athanasius the Librarian up to go bananas with it to use the Pope as a political tool but the Papacy got too big and that backfired big time."
The peak of "troubadour love" tradition happens to coinside with the rise of the Albigensian heresy, the cathars in Provence. This idea/ tradition is highly gnostic.
We definetly shouldn't equate the troubadur poetry with Catharism. The poetry was actually too life affirming for the gnostics. They were in some sense a repsonse to the lavishness of the courts in Languedoc with their rejection of the material world.
@@TheGeneralGrievous19 I agree. But the second was undoubtedly influenced by the first. And it's not surprising that the crusade came to the same area that was most famous for its amour courtois poetry.
"I'm stuck in Wales" Yep, from there you go to hell, then purgatory, then heaven.
Do an episode on the mabinogion or Taliesin
I just found the Mabinogion at a thrift store earlier this week.
😂😂 much love.
There is way more to the “Donation of Constantine” (e.g. even people in the east used it, because everyone thought it was authentic). Putting in a plug against the Papacy made this groaning.
We would be remiss in a conversation on "Universal History" not to note that Dante not only integrates what came before him in the "Western tradition" but draws heavily on the Islamic tradition. Given its centrality in Western literature it is fascinating to note that, as Spanish priest and scholar of the Arabic language Miguel Asin Palacios shows in his book Islam and the Divine Comedy, Dante was deeply indebted to Muslim literature on the ascension of Prophet Muhammad and the Divine Comedy shows striking similarities to the descriptions of the Prophet's ascent as well as his vision of the realms of hell. The text by great early Sufi al-Qushayri had been widely circulated in Muslim Spain and was translated into Latin by a scribe of Spanish king Alphonso X in 1264.
Of course, in the Comedy Dante places the Prophet amongst the schismatics, but it is truly fascinating to note that the structure of the comedy and many of its details were drawn from his ascension. In a time of such continued antagonism between the Muslim world and the West I feel this thread of historical exchange is a fruitful place for dialogue.
Wehsee 🌚☄️❤️💫
Vipassana
is for clowns
"We'll see you all in hell." What an invitation! 😅
So if the man cursed Jupiter, why would that make him end up in Hell? I could think of many reasons why he would be in Hell, but cursing Jupiter, a demon, I don't understand why that would be one of them..unless it is his motive behind it..Because for all he knew, Jupiter was a true God, not a demon, and the very fact that he cursed who he thought was God, his motive, was enough to put him in Hell..not the fact that he was, or is, an actual demon..thats the only reason i can think of.. Because cursing a demon in and of itself, correct me if im wrong, would be a good thing..God bless Mary protect +++
Not only the titans and Achilles are in Hell for cursing Jupiter, but upon entering Paradise Dante summons Apollo.
@@DaviRenania don't get me wrong..the Divine Comedy is a great Christian, a great Catholic work..I was just trying to understand this part a bit more..God bless Mary protect +++
You realize the greatness of this poem when woke critics find fault in the author for being " "judgemental " or "authoritarian"
There hasn't been "epic" poerty since "woke" or "critical theory emerged"
You need a grand vision to create great poetry
Its not quite epic poetry, but Ezra Pound's Cantos were influenced by many historical and cultural works for millennia. I think you probably need a Master's in multiple fields to fully understand it.
C.S. Lewis also believed he'll (hell) was locked from the inside. Spoiler alert--Universal history transfigures into universal salvation; a restoration of all in the All.
You forgot to mention that the Divine Comedy draws heavily on the Muslim Arabic Miraj traditions.
They did not need to mention everything and I think there is no evidence that he was inspired by the Miraj tradition apart from some similarities. S story about a descent into the underworld or ascent into the heavens are universal.
💝☦👑🇷🇸🇷🇺💯✅
"But this story [the Christian story] is supreme; and it is true. Art has been verified. God is the Lord, of angels, and of men-and of elves. Legend and History have met and fused." ~ J.R.R. Tolkien
too bad the class is not affordable for many people....
Jonathan is like Usher and Richard is his Justin Bieber
Whose P. Diddy
Given recent news stories, this analogy seems to me to be very awkward, not really helpful.
Why's he always call it Paradisio? Isn't it Paradiso?
The inferno is the only work that has actively scared me as I read it. Nothing comes close to the imagery.
Easy to sit and criticise the Pope centuries later with hindsight. The arrogance of ortho bros is astounding. Pride goeth before destruction.
but its false to the scripture
Castillan Spanish is the best latin dialect. And the lingua franca soon too.
Tried to order Snow White for my daughter, but got no response. ?!?
10:39 and "Valley Girls" [1983] destroyed the English language.
Richard, please learn how to focus your talking and get to the point. I'm half an hour in, and you've not even started yet, just lots of haphazard random facts that weren't necessary or could've been said in about 5 minutes at the most. Americans have this habit of just talking endlessly.
Too opinionated, trying to sell a course, too many umms and uhs. Listening to Malcolm Guite’s youtube video on Dante was far more enlightening.
I think talking about the changes in the West compered to East as all about the pope and bishops having land is limited. I believe the Church became to dependednt and controlled by the state both in the East & in the West. There was this whole idea of the local rulers apointing bishops, ans emperors apointing patriarchs. The development of papal supremacy & the libertas ecclesiae movement allowed the Church in the West to become independent again - how it was in the early Church. It also was a source of inspirations for other groupa striving for their rights, and ultimetly the idea of natural/human rights that firts apeared in the medieval canon law of the Western Church in 12th century. I personally don't think the East had a right way of looking at things - without having a center & top of the hierarchy in pope, the local states often gained a lot of inlfuence & control over the clergy. We see how it works in Russia & Ukraine nowadays. The patriarchs of Constantinople were subservient to the will of Roman Emperors. I've seen some Orthodox geniuenly supporting caesaropapism.
What does Richard have in common with Jonas? Thy're both stuck in whales. Ah crap, it doesn't work in writing!
21:06
Ehhhh... he is... but you could say otherwise. He puts people like Gioachinno da Fiore in Heaven in defiance to the Church that, decades before Dante's birth, had his doctrines expressly deemed heresy in the Council of Lateran IV. Maybe Dante believed the council was politically motivated, but again he was an initiated member of the Fedeli d'Amore which was probably a gnostic fraternity. And in the top of Paradiso, Dante uses a lot of Valentinan terminology, as if he is refering to gnostic aeons... and Beatrice is obviously Sophia. Also, there is an eerie lack of crosses in the poem, even atop Mount Purgatory where a devout Roman Catholic would add the utmost christian symbol: the cross on the mountain -- instead he uses it to make an allegory of the destruction of the Church in good joachimite fashion.
All this does is reinforce how hard people work not to be Roman Catholic. It’s so funny and also cowardly to constantly talk about the middle ages as if that has anything to do with Eastern orthodoxy and then talk about Dante and just skip over the Catholic Church.
“I love hierarchy. The universe is a hierarchy. Your body is a hierarchy”
“Except the church we don’t have a head. Just first among equals. Popes aren’t real”
That's a stretch to just paint Orthodox like Protestants and say that we don't like hierarchy or that we reject the Pope solely because of that. First among equals was a title your Popes accepted for a thousand years before the schism. Your own church admits this.
The Primacy of Rome isn't disputed. Its the extraordinary powers he has accumulated to himself is the problem. The church has a head, its Christ. He is still here, ruling in the midst of his enemies.
@@Christopher-ow6lr Catholics very much believe that Christ is the Head of the Church. But we also understand that the pope is the main Vicar of Christ being his main representative. It flows from right interpretation of Matthew 16 & the paralles to it's prefigurement in Isaiah 22 as the Asher Al Habayit that represented the king in Israel. We believe that the Catholic understanding of the papal primacy is natural development of the doctrine since the Apostolic Age, analogical to how the doctrine of the Trinity developed until the Christological councils like Nicea or Chalcedon. From our perspective the Orthodox understaning is underdeveloped. It is also important to distinguish between actual Catholic teaching on the Papacy from the hyperpapalism that some Catholics wrongly ascribe to.
@@Christopher-ow6lrChris this is a mischaracterization. I would just consider questioning all the misconceptions around Catholicism. I don’t blame anyone for questioning the papacy. Once you see that the Catholic Church is the universal punching bag you also start to wonder if maybe it’s convenient to misrepresent it by darker forces. It’s a hard pill to swallow believe me
@BryanKirch... you are dead on the money! Great comment!
I would never call this 14th century reductionist propaganda as the greatest work of western canon, It is obviously important and beautiful poem, but Dante and his worldview could be role-model for fascists not for Christians
Can you elaborate? Divine Comedy wasn't even written in 16th century but in early 14th century. Wdym by reductionist or being inspiration fascism?
@@TheGeneralGrievous19 You are right of course it was 14th century. To be clear I do not say that Dante was a fascist, because it would be anachronistic, but I believe that "Divine Comedy" was written in vain, in contra to his political opponents and philosophers he disliked. It shows a worlview of a egocentric person, who hates a lot of people and see himself as better then them. He judges them and imagine them in hell among biblical and mythological sinners, later puts himself on a pedestaI among saints, angels and heroes he gloryfies, in my opinion only reductionist person would think like that. I see it as a kind of manifesto, of a brilliant but very sad and angry human, but thats of course only my interpretation. Saying all that, I still agree with all my heart, that it is a masterpiece and undoubtly very important part of western canon, my comment above was just expression of my concern, because Im not sure it should be treated as some revelation of truth and morals, or at least people should be careful with doing that.
@@arturhashmi6281That has nothing to do with fascism.
@@ElonMuskrat-my8jy I do not say that Dante was fascist or racist, cause like I said before, it would be anchronistic, but he believed that Christendom (and all humanity) should be controled by a heavy hand of centralized authority and He clearly divided people as good, valuable - like himself and bad, unpure - different then himself, eg. Muslims or Ghibellines. So it's not surprising that he became "the bard" of Mussolini, his supporters and now their descendants. I do not think that we should agree with italian fascists and treat his work as their own because they claim it, just like we do not treat Nietzshes work as nazi, all I say is that worship of Dante's art among fascists is not coincidental and that it has a lot of potential for reductionist interpretation and there is no perspective of the world more beneficial for any totalitarian system then scape-goating reductionism, which is basically what Alighieri did through the whole of his magnum opus. Sorry if my english is chaotic, Im not native, but I try to be understandable. Cheers.
@@arturhashmi6281 Centralized authority i.e. monarchy is the only form of government approved of by God. All else is self-rule.
The Ramblings ofa Schizophrenic Lunatic.
When you start with an education series with I don’t know. All credibility is lost. Sorry.
Jonathan Pageau, You're awesome! Let's be friends, okay?