Staying warm while in a truck camper, RV, Van, Trailer is always a challenge when traveling in freezing temperatures. We have tanks and lines that do not reside inside the camper envelope. It was a design tradeoff which gave us more storage and space inside and there was a plan to fully insulate the outside lines, it just wasn't ready yet. It was not our intent to travel into freezing temperatures but when Steve's brother passed away, we needed to just go even though we did not have all the freeze protection in place. We also didn't elaborate but along with the coolant heating system for the camper, we also have and love a diesel air heater. The coolant system has been awesome for these freezing temperatures and we'll leverage the diesel air heater when it's not as cold or for a quick blast of heat (it works very quickly). Please share and like if you find the detail of value. And drop us a comment / question below. We love hearing from others doing their own build or modifications!
The amount of information gathering I've been able to ascertain from the 2 videos I've watched from your channel so far is invaluable. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I now have a place to start.
It has been a great accessory but the fresh water return system as a freeze protection tool is really the best. I have installed a motorized ball valve in my wer bay that 'returns' water from the hot water tank through most of the exterior water system to the fresh tanks. This puts hot/warm water into the fish tanks but also keeps the water in the entire fresh piping moving so if there is a part of it that is inclined to freeze, that water is moved along every 30 minutes. I have a DIN rail 'asymmetric timer relay' ($12) that opens the valve for 30s every 30m, 24/7....we just need to leave the pump on....another benefit the recirculation provides.
@@WorkingOnExploring I've got a 12mm PEX line that goes down next to my sink waste pipe, through a bulkhead connector into my grey tank (the pipe goes through the middle of my water tank) and then out the other side alongside my shower waste pipe and up back into my box. It's tapped off a spur next to my underfloor heating piping. I use 12mm John Guest pipe as I didn't want copper pipe outside the vehicle. I haven't completely finished it all yet but the 12mm pipe is going to be strapped tightly to the waste pipes and thick insulation over them both. Hopefully that will keep my grey tank and all the waste pipes clear of ice!
Been researching how to keep things warm, after watching this I give up 😂. Just gonna bring a separate water supply leaving the lines winterized and using a portable toilet. Not to mention a cooler cause the fridge freezes up to :)
The 'simplest' (and possibly the most fool proof) way to achieve freeze protection is to have absolutely everything inside your heated cabin. I have never seen anyone build that way. There is too much lost opportunity to use exterior space. As soon as you decide to use exterior space you ARE in for a headache. My thought is to monitor a lot more and heat selectively.
Don’t envy you guys as we’re in Florida right now (not trying to be a wise guy). Came across your flatbed camper build videos while researching information for my own flatbed build. Appreciate the information you’ve put out there, I’ve learned a lot! Interesting that we’ve taken similar paths. This is the fifth year (and over 50,000 miles) in our 2003 Ford F350 6.0 short wheel base and 2017 Adventurer 86fb. We absolutely love our camper but there are some things we don’t like about it. I’m in the preplanning stages for our own dream flatbed build. After reviewing nearly all your build videos, could not find what your final build weight ended up being. Any help or info you could provide would be greatly appreciated.
I'm grew up in a ski town in Montana so the cold weather doesn't shock or even bother me. I delivered newspapers on foot for 3 years as a young teen and had the 'educational opportunity' to walk about 6 miles every morning, sometimes in fresh deep show and sometimes in temps of -40F. Tolerating definitely doesn't mean liking but dealing with the cold is never a big threat, its just a development process (that which does not kill us makes us stronger is very true). I still joke that when I left MT to go to college, I left my winter coat there and haven't neded it since (which is actually true)....I definitely prefer the temperate weather though so thats also why I live in SoCal now....lol Not sure what weights you are looking for so here is a shotgun blast; Weight is a combination of guesses and some accurate (weighed). Front the top; At this moment, I'm right at 13,500 gross, fully loaded. That includes 48 gallons of water (18 and 25 gallon fresh tanks and 5.28 gallon hot water ~400 lbs) and 53 gallons of diesel (38 gallon main fuel and 14 gallon auxiliary ~371lbs). No specific idea how much food, clothing, and other gear but probably another 6-800. With a large fridge, we tend to really pack it up, particularly when leaving home and it tends to stay pretty full. Using the gross minus cargo calculation 13,500 - 771 liquids - 800 food/gear - 400lbs passengers = ~11,500 gross(dry). My Dana 60 front (6500lbs capacity) is right at 5700lbs. My Sterling 10.5 Rear (9650 capacity) is at 7800. The stock GVW was 9900 (2004 F350, crew, 4x4, 6.0l diesel). I removed the 8' cargo box which weighs 420lbs (weighed with a crane scale when removed). Assuming the ~7200lb curb weight dropped to 6780 without the cargo box, that makes my camper and associated cargo/tanks + vehicle enhancements weight around 4750. Vehicle additions: I've added larger wheels and tires (x5 from OEM 265/75R16 @31.4" dia, load index 123 @ 3,417lbs/tire to 295/65R20 @35" diameter, load index 129 @ 4080 lbs/tire), likely +150lbs in tire/wheel weight, dual shocks on all 4 corners +50lbs including brackets, Front bumper and winch +197lbs (actual weight), and extra leaf spring in all 4 spring packs is probably +120lbs I removed the rear and center front seats as well but that's not in my numbers. If I deduct the vehicle enhancements from the whole build weight, 4750 - 613lbs =~4136lbs (just the camper parts). From the bottom, i was able to weight the cabin (crane scale) with out internal walls or doors at ~1604bs. I assume my entire cabin is around 2000lbs. It is MUCH more heavily built than is should have or could have made it. I have weighed my cargo boxes at 54lbs for the two front and 34lbs for the two rear..... Off the top of my head this is most of the big round numbers. If you want anything specific, I may have that.
I am blown away by your knowledge and skill. Sorry to hear about your brother. That is a big shop. I built a summer rig now building a winter rig. How many gallons an hour does your coolant heater use? Is the floor heat noticeable?
1) I have not made a serious attempt to determine fuel consumption so can't say if the manufacturer's rating is accurate. The manual rates it at .1l to .25l per hour. Because it runs at full speed as long as it can and only cuts off if it hits 90C, whatever it was connected to would need to be pretty 'satisfied' to ever slow down enough to get to the minimum. 2) Floor naturally convective heat is not very useful and I never expected it to be. In a house where the tubing goes through concrete (typically), the thermal mass and area are large. Since the camper floor is not, it does little. Secondly, there is pretty poor heat transfer off the plastic PEX tubing. The lack of the former (mass and area) combined with poor thermal transfer render the system almost ineffective for space heat. It does provide some hint of warmth so you don't feel like you're walking on a cold floor but that is about it. I planned for this by having a 5x10in fan convected radiator at floor level which works really well. If you want passive heat, I think you would need to use a number of naturally convected radiators that are either large or closely spaced to be effective.
@@WorkingOnExploring thank you for the response.i put one in my first RV I built. It seemed very inefficient. Thought maybe the new ones would be more efficient. I was thinking of doing a hydronic in the floor. But seems like maybe a diesel air heater might be more efficient.
@@rolandrockstarmega1299 I have both. I think the efficiency of converting diesel into heat is the same. The mechanism of moving the heat and transferring it to objects is what is different. If all you want/need is cabin heat, air heating is faster and more trouble free (coolant leaks). I feel more needs for heat than just cabin heat. Water heating is something very inefficiently done using air as an intermediary. 1) If you want to avoid propane, electricity and diesel are your only other ways. For a year, I heated water electrically and it was barely ok because I had lots of solar and a small tank (2.5 gal was too small). 2) Using electricity for water heating and freeze protection is a bigger problem. Solar production in freezing temps is much less so electrical power is more precious. It is impossible to use an air heater to move heat to all the (external) places that need it. Hot coolant can do it. 3) tapping engine coolant is a huge benefit of free heat. I need to use a lot less stored energy for hot water because every time I move, I arrive with 20l of 180F water for 'free'....that typically reduces my need to expend stored energy to heat water by half. This all involves a somewhat complex hydronic system that involves a lot more than just the coolant heater. Complexity costs money and requires an investment in understanding and maintenance. I'm glad I did and I had more than a little pain getting it done but am pleased with it now that it's done. It's certainly not for everybody. There are lots of folks with commercial systems that have unreconcilable problems, mostly because they don't have deep understanding and are therefore not able to troubleshoot.
@@WorkingOnExploring I use a propane tankless water heater to heat my hot tub on my RV. They seem really efficient. Would it be possible to heat the glycol with one of those. I like how they work. More instant then diesel. My problem was trying to keep it from freezing but using glycol with a heat exchanger will solve that. I am building this rig to go snowmobiling in Colorado.
I have an old tankless water heater that I use to heat an inflatable hot tub (at home). It is NG and I just use the HX and not the control system. I use a hydronic sytem pump to circulate the pool water through it. It's crude but works well. I don't think having a 50:50 glycol water mix in a tankless heater, by it self, would be a problem but I can see several others. 1) Hydronic heat is, by nature, 'slow heat', using relatively small 'boilers' that run long duration. The burner capacity of a 5k diesel coolant heater is (5kW x 3.412BTU/kW =) 17kBTU. In my little camper, this much roasts me out easily, even when it s really cold (but I have great insulation). The typical propane RV tankless heaters are 42-55kBTU ( 12.3-16.1kW). The high heat transfer INTO the liquid by the burner is going to be REALLY HARD to transfer OUT of the liquid and into something else as rapidly as you need to. You would need to have a very large RV with lots of space that would need to be heated (remember, you'retrying to transfer heat from a high energy density, high caloric capacity liquid to a low density, low caloric capacity air). 2) Tankless heaters are designed based on HIGH, SINGLE-PASS TEMPERATURE RISE because they assume they need to raise ~56F incoming water (ground temperature) to ~120 F, which is 64F temperature rise. Hydronic systems, which circulate the same coolant, operate on a temperature rise of 10-15F. This means that if the 120F exiting liquid circulated through air HX and came back to the 'boiler', it would probably be at 105-110F, not 56F. On the second trip through the heater, it would again get a 64F temperature rise, not to 169-176F which is WAY TOO HOT. The control of the unit would shut down due to high outlet temp. 3) Liquid velocity in the pipe. Tankless water heaters sense both flow velocity and exit temp to control the system. They are trying to deliver a high volume of hot water to an exit point with as little heat loss as possible. Water velocity through them is pretty high (driven by 50-80psi water pressure). A hydronic systems is the opposite. They use low velocity flow to minimize pump energy and maximize heat loss from the pipe, with the goal of minimizing delivered (return) water temperature. The piping size necessary to satisfy a tankless heater based hydronic system would have to be quite a bit larger than the normal hydronic circuit (1/2" pipe up to 300', 5/8 pipe up to 400' and 3/4" pipe up to 500') to handle the flow velocity the heat control system needs and return temperature would be pretty high. They do make 'dual use' tankless type hydronic heaters (for residences) but they have a control system and a burner regulation system to handle the differences. Freezing of tankless systems is a problem that has been solved. Externally mounted (residential) tankless systems which are very common in Europe, have freeze protection that fires the burner periodically for a few seconds to prevent freezing (with no water flow). Your problem is that I don't imagine RV units have this. You can imagine, its not that hard, just not done because the RV market has not needed it.
Staying warm while in a truck camper, RV, Van, Trailer is always a challenge when traveling in freezing temperatures. We have tanks and lines that do not reside inside the camper envelope. It was a design tradeoff which gave us more storage and space inside and there was a plan to fully insulate the outside lines, it just wasn't ready yet. It was not our intent to travel into freezing temperatures but when Steve's brother passed away, we needed to just go even though we did not have all the freeze protection in place. We also didn't elaborate but along with the coolant heating system for the camper, we also have and love a diesel air heater. The coolant system has been awesome for these freezing temperatures and we'll leverage the diesel air heater when it's not as cold or for a quick blast of heat (it works very quickly). Please share and like if you find the detail of value. And drop us a comment / question below. We love hearing from others doing their own build or modifications!
The amount of information gathering I've been able to ascertain from the 2 videos I've watched from your channel so far is invaluable.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I now have a place to start.
Glad to help. I post more info at WorkingOnExploring.com/TechDocs. If you have specific questions, email me at WorkingOnExploring@gmail.com
That shower diverter is a great idea! I'm stealing it!
It has been a great accessory but the fresh water return system as a freeze protection tool is really the best. I have installed a motorized ball valve in my wer bay that 'returns' water from the hot water tank through most of the exterior water system to the fresh tanks. This puts hot/warm water into the fish tanks but also keeps the water in the entire fresh piping moving so if there is a part of it that is inclined to freeze, that water is moved along every 30 minutes. I have a DIN rail 'asymmetric timer relay' ($12) that opens the valve for 30s every 30m, 24/7....we just need to leave the pump on....another benefit the recirculation provides.
@@WorkingOnExploring I've got a 12mm PEX line that goes down next to my sink waste pipe, through a bulkhead connector into my grey tank (the pipe goes through the middle of my water tank) and then out the other side alongside my shower waste pipe and up back into my box. It's tapped off a spur next to my underfloor heating piping. I use 12mm John Guest pipe as I didn't want copper pipe outside the vehicle. I haven't completely finished it all yet but the 12mm pipe is going to be strapped tightly to the waste pipes and thick insulation over them both. Hopefully that will keep my grey tank and all the waste pipes clear of ice!
Been researching how to keep things warm, after watching this I give up 😂. Just gonna bring a separate water supply leaving the lines winterized and using a portable toilet. Not to mention a cooler cause the fridge freezes up to :)
The 'simplest' (and possibly the most fool proof) way to achieve freeze protection is to have absolutely everything inside your heated cabin. I have never seen anyone build that way. There is too much lost opportunity to use exterior space. As soon as you decide to use exterior space you ARE in for a headache. My thought is to monitor a lot more and heat selectively.
Don’t envy you guys as we’re in Florida right now (not trying to be a wise guy). Came across your flatbed camper build videos while researching information for my own flatbed build. Appreciate the information you’ve put out there, I’ve learned a lot! Interesting that we’ve taken similar paths. This is the fifth year (and over 50,000 miles) in our 2003 Ford F350 6.0 short wheel base and 2017 Adventurer 86fb. We absolutely love our camper but there are some things we don’t like about it. I’m in the preplanning stages for our own dream flatbed build. After reviewing nearly all your build videos, could not find what your final build weight ended up being. Any help or info you could provide would be greatly appreciated.
I'm grew up in a ski town in Montana so the cold weather doesn't shock or even bother me. I delivered newspapers on foot for 3 years as a young teen and had the 'educational opportunity' to walk about 6 miles every morning, sometimes in fresh deep show and sometimes in temps of -40F. Tolerating definitely doesn't mean liking but dealing with the cold is never a big threat, its just a development process (that which does not kill us makes us stronger is very true). I still joke that when I left MT to go to college, I left my winter coat there and haven't neded it since (which is actually true)....I definitely prefer the temperate weather though so thats also why I live in SoCal now....lol
Not sure what weights you are looking for so here is a shotgun blast; Weight is a combination of guesses and some accurate (weighed). Front the top; At this moment, I'm right at 13,500 gross, fully loaded. That includes 48 gallons of water (18 and 25 gallon fresh tanks and 5.28 gallon hot water ~400 lbs) and 53 gallons of diesel (38 gallon main fuel and 14 gallon auxiliary ~371lbs). No specific idea how much food, clothing, and other gear but probably another 6-800. With a large fridge, we tend to really pack it up, particularly when leaving home and it tends to stay pretty full. Using the gross minus cargo calculation 13,500 - 771 liquids - 800 food/gear - 400lbs passengers = ~11,500 gross(dry).
My Dana 60 front (6500lbs capacity) is right at 5700lbs. My Sterling 10.5 Rear (9650 capacity) is at 7800. The stock GVW was 9900 (2004 F350, crew, 4x4, 6.0l diesel). I removed the 8' cargo box which weighs 420lbs (weighed with a crane scale when removed). Assuming the ~7200lb curb weight dropped to 6780 without the cargo box, that makes my camper and associated cargo/tanks + vehicle enhancements weight around 4750.
Vehicle additions: I've added larger wheels and tires (x5 from OEM 265/75R16 @31.4" dia, load index 123 @ 3,417lbs/tire to 295/65R20 @35" diameter, load index 129 @ 4080 lbs/tire), likely +150lbs in tire/wheel weight, dual shocks on all 4 corners +50lbs including brackets, Front bumper and winch +197lbs (actual weight), and extra leaf spring in all 4 spring packs is probably +120lbs I removed the rear and center front seats as well but that's not in my numbers.
If I deduct the vehicle enhancements from the whole build weight, 4750 - 613lbs =~4136lbs (just the camper parts).
From the bottom, i was able to weight the cabin (crane scale) with out internal walls or doors at ~1604bs. I assume my entire cabin is around 2000lbs. It is MUCH more heavily built than is should have or could have made it. I have weighed my cargo boxes at 54lbs for the two front and 34lbs for the two rear.....
Off the top of my head this is most of the big round numbers. If you want anything specific, I may have that.
I am blown away by your knowledge and skill. Sorry to hear about your brother. That is a big shop. I built a summer rig now building a winter rig. How many gallons an hour does your coolant heater use? Is the floor heat noticeable?
1) I have not made a serious attempt to determine fuel consumption so can't say if the manufacturer's rating is accurate. The manual rates it at .1l to .25l per hour. Because it runs at full speed as long as it can and only cuts off if it hits 90C, whatever it was connected to would need to be pretty 'satisfied' to ever slow down enough to get to the minimum.
2) Floor naturally convective heat is not very useful and I never expected it to be. In a house where the tubing goes through concrete (typically), the thermal mass and area are large. Since the camper floor is not, it does little. Secondly, there is pretty poor heat transfer off the plastic PEX tubing. The lack of the former (mass and area) combined with poor thermal transfer render the system almost ineffective for space heat. It does provide some hint of warmth so you don't feel like you're walking on a cold floor but that is about it. I planned for this by having a 5x10in fan convected radiator at floor level which works really well. If you want passive heat, I think you would need to use a number of naturally convected radiators that are either large or closely spaced to be effective.
@@WorkingOnExploring thank you for the response.i put one in my first RV I built. It seemed very inefficient. Thought maybe the new ones would be more efficient. I was thinking of doing a hydronic in the floor. But seems like maybe a diesel air heater might be more efficient.
@@rolandrockstarmega1299 I have both. I think the efficiency of converting diesel into heat is the same. The mechanism of moving the heat and transferring it to objects is what is different. If all you want/need is cabin heat, air heating is faster and more trouble free (coolant leaks). I feel more needs for heat than just cabin heat. Water heating is something very inefficiently done using air as an intermediary. 1) If you want to avoid propane, electricity and diesel are your only other ways. For a year, I heated water electrically and it was barely ok because I had lots of solar and a small tank (2.5 gal was too small). 2) Using electricity for water heating and freeze protection is a bigger problem. Solar production in freezing temps is much less so electrical power is more precious. It is impossible to use an air heater to move heat to all the (external) places that need it. Hot coolant can do it. 3) tapping engine coolant is a huge benefit of free heat. I need to use a lot less stored energy for hot water because every time I move, I arrive with 20l of 180F water for 'free'....that typically reduces my need to expend stored energy to heat water by half. This all involves a somewhat complex hydronic system that involves a lot more than just the coolant heater. Complexity costs money and requires an investment in understanding and maintenance. I'm glad I did and I had more than a little pain getting it done but am pleased with it now that it's done. It's certainly not for everybody. There are lots of folks with commercial systems that have unreconcilable problems, mostly because they don't have deep understanding and are therefore not able to troubleshoot.
@@WorkingOnExploring I use a propane tankless water heater to heat my hot tub on my RV. They seem really efficient. Would it be possible to heat the glycol with one of those. I like how they work. More instant then diesel. My problem was trying to keep it from freezing but using glycol with a heat exchanger will solve that. I am building this rig to go snowmobiling in Colorado.
I have an old tankless water heater that I use to heat an inflatable hot tub (at home). It is NG and I just use the HX and not the control system. I use a hydronic sytem pump to circulate the pool water through it. It's crude but works well.
I don't think having a 50:50 glycol water mix in a tankless heater, by it self, would be a problem but I can see several others.
1) Hydronic heat is, by nature, 'slow heat', using relatively small 'boilers' that run long duration. The burner capacity of a 5k diesel coolant heater is (5kW x 3.412BTU/kW =) 17kBTU. In my little camper, this much roasts me out easily, even when it s really cold (but I have great insulation). The typical propane RV tankless heaters are 42-55kBTU ( 12.3-16.1kW). The high heat transfer INTO the liquid by the burner is going to be REALLY HARD to transfer OUT of the liquid and into something else as rapidly as you need to. You would need to have a very large RV with lots of space that would need to be heated (remember, you'retrying to transfer heat from a high energy density, high caloric capacity liquid to a low density, low caloric capacity air).
2) Tankless heaters are designed based on HIGH, SINGLE-PASS TEMPERATURE RISE because they assume they need to raise ~56F incoming water (ground temperature) to ~120 F, which is 64F temperature rise. Hydronic systems, which circulate the same coolant, operate on a temperature rise of 10-15F. This means that if the 120F exiting liquid circulated through air HX and came back to the 'boiler', it would probably be at 105-110F, not 56F. On the second trip through the heater, it would again get a 64F temperature rise, not to 169-176F which is WAY TOO HOT. The control of the unit would shut down due to high outlet temp.
3) Liquid velocity in the pipe. Tankless water heaters sense both flow velocity and exit temp to control the system. They are trying to deliver a high volume of hot water to an exit point with as little heat loss as possible. Water velocity through them is pretty high (driven by 50-80psi water pressure). A hydronic systems is the opposite. They use low velocity flow to minimize pump energy and maximize heat loss from the pipe, with the goal of minimizing delivered (return) water temperature. The piping size necessary to satisfy a tankless heater based hydronic system would have to be quite a bit larger than the normal hydronic circuit (1/2" pipe up to 300', 5/8 pipe up to 400' and 3/4" pipe up to 500') to handle the flow velocity the heat control system needs and return temperature would be pretty high. They do make 'dual use' tankless type hydronic heaters (for residences) but they have a control system and a burner regulation system to handle the differences.
Freezing of tankless systems is a problem that has been solved. Externally mounted (residential) tankless systems which are very common in Europe, have freeze protection that fires the burner periodically for a few seconds to prevent freezing (with no water flow). Your problem is that I don't imagine RV units have this. You can imagine, its not that hard, just not done because the RV market has not needed it.