Nice video! The editing, explanation and visual representation of revenge value were great! The revenge value system is very interesting with it's various advantages and disadvantages. The system is very good at teaching the player to not be too aggressive, however something like demyx's forced revenge can feel unfair due to it not having that many options to react with outside of reflect. But regardless of this it isn't that big of a deal as the player will eventually learn the general idea of revenge value and to back off after a combo or so. Like many things in kh2 I think this system would have benefitted from some minor explanation to the player. For example "If you attack a boss for too long they may retaliate!" The loopable nature of some forced revenges is what I would say is it's main weakness, however I think this is less of a limitation of the system but rather it's implementation. They actually improve on this in kh3's re:mind dlc with bosses that have attacks specifically for the forced revenges that don't have an opening and are very reactable thanks to aerial slide and aerial block. Also attacks like Ars where the rv is applied on the last hit is so cool and whilst the use case of cancelling out of it probably wasn't intended, it allowed players with a good understanding of the game's systems to pull of some really cool combos. Sadly however I don't think we will see something like that again. Anyway great video! I'll make sure to look out for your future content.
Fantastic explanation, probably the best video on revenge value I have seen, at least when it comes to the basics. The editing makes super easy to follow. I'd complement more if it was redundant, great stuff lol
I remember sucking at demyx when I was younger because I didn't know how abilities worked back then especially not having aerial recovery on in that fight was chao's for sure.
Yeah definitely. Demyx is one of the toughest bosses for new players, and it's all because of his disjointed, un-Guardable hitboxes, and his forced revenge eating you alive. At least you got past it at some point!
I know that I am very late in this video, but know that kh series is finally on pc, and after completing 1 and CoM, I am playing 2 now, and this video will be very helpful, thanks, man!
Honestly, a visual representation of revenge would've been a fantastic addition to the game, maybe like the bar present throughout the video under the health bar
Thanks for the video. I'm about halfway into the game and after dying to silhouette larxene's forced revenge too many times I had to find out what was going on. I do have a question though, I think the mechanic is definitely needed and works well in general but how do you know when you are close to triggering a forced revenge? From what I understand there is no way other than trial and error. While this is fine to some extent that adds a lot of learning time to every fight, especially when the forced revenge can change based on the boss's phase. I kind of hope there's something I'm missing about knowing when you're close to triggering forced revenge because having to learn it for every combo and every boss sounds really tedious
There's a site in the description that details each boss's RVmax and if they change during the fight, but you can assume that the majority of bosses that stagger have a 12.5 RVmax. On top of that, most ground attacks deal 1 RV (3 for most finishers), and most air attacks deal 1.5 RV (3.5 for finishers). Given that, your standard combo (without Combo Plus) usually deals 5 RV, or 6.5 RV while airborne. For most bosses, that leaves you with 2 combos per opening, with grounded being more safe than aerial. The game doesn't tell you when this will occur, or that it's different depending on the boss, but the general idea IS trial and error (unless you study the values on the site in the description) to learn how the bosses react to your combos. In most situations, you can learn and adapt while fighting without much issue, given the game's difficulty isn't very high for most bosses outside of the optional ones, though the Absent Silhouettes among others can definitely make you feel like you have no time.
@@relaxedbatter thanks for the response. That explains a lot. I would do 2 air combos on larxene and hit forced revenge midair. Okay I'll try to work around the general rule of being cautious of a forced revenge after 2 full grounded combos and adjust it as needed. Honestly just knowing that is more comforting than nothing. I'll look on the website for the really hard ones I get stuck on. I wish this was explained in some way in the game. This is my first playthrough and I'm on critical so while story bosses are like you said not too bad, anything that's optional has been kicking my ass and I've felt like I couldn't really fight back without getting attacked almost immediately. I appreciate the tip
I have a question about how stunlocks work, i'll take peter pan as an example, since the attacks he does don't add revenge value to the bosses but doesn't seem to prevent them from retaliating (like the overhead aerial finisher demonstrated in the video), so If i attacked a boss with him active (peter pan) It wouldn't be possible to do the stunlock since my attacks would still add revenge value to his guage and eventualy he'd retaliate, but as seen in a lot of videos what i described doesn't seem to be the case
I made that myself through the power of post-production. However, if you're playing on an emulator or can otherwise input cheats into your game, there is a code that will change your HP into a visual representation of the boss's RV. Otherwise, you'll have to visualize this bar in your mind by planning out your combo and researching the boss's RVmax in the links of the description.
@@relaxedbatter I think I'll just do it old school and plan out my attacks with the information you provided! Thank you very much for the links and nice video on RV! I can't wait to go put it to work because I love doing No Damage Runs :)
i hate revenge value system for one key reason. i dont mind it existing in harder difficulties. but it absolutely should not exist in the easiest and possibly not in the second esiest levels. to me a child and a grand parent should both be able yo beat a game on easy. these revenge values ad an insane level of complexity and meta gaming. it makes the extra fights near impossible for people that dont know how games work on a more deep compex level. this is extra bad due to the ones that do a near insta kill no matter your level. if i set up an acount at lvl 99 with max stats set to easiy for my mother or my niece to play both should be able to beat the whole game easily. easy is not easy anymore with complex mechanics. imagine requiring kids to ev train to have any chance at beating the elite 4. that would make the game stop being fun for most kids
The Battle Frontier (or Battle Maison, or whatever it is nowadays) does this, though. It changes stats that enemies have that you've already fought through the game to make them harder -- in the Frontier's case, nearly every enemy is EV trained and in some cases tries to even react to your team setup. RV doesn't make these fights impossible -- you could go the entire game without knowing the concept exists, but you as a player should recognize a pattern through repetition. "At this point in my combo, Larxene breaks out and I get hit, so maybe I should back off instead of trying to push so hard." This is conditioning you to not go all in every opening, and is designed to prevent you from infinitely comboing bosses to death off of one opening. Though, especially on Beginner, you can likely just tank most hits and whittle down their health. You have 120 HP and access to the best armor set in the game that reduces damage by upwards of 50%, not to mention all the healing options you have available to you. You have much more room for error the lower difficulty you play on. I'm not going to say the data fights, Sephiroth, or Lingering Will are easy on Beginner but... they're not designed to be. They're supposed to test your skill you've accrued throughout the game and whether you understand how to deal with problems and come up with your own solutions with the options given to you. If not, that just means you have more to learn and possibly analyze about the boss and your own playstyle.
@@relaxedbatter honestly due to all the insta-kill and insta drop to 1hp attacks that the after game enimes have the difficulty setting makes almost no difference in those fights at least for me. i found it almost just as hard to beat it at every difficulty setting while the none gamers that played the whole game on easy could not beat even half the extra bosses. again all im saying is a feature that complicated should be disabled on easy i dont understand why thats such a hard concept that easy mode should be easy in Pokémon if you just go in qith level 100 pokemon you can already do almost everything no meta gaming needed.
I think you exaggerate a little too hard on it. Most people who played on standard or below won't notice this or have a bit of pattern recognition at most
@pandu vandal even on standard mode to beat all after end game bosses you absolutely need to know this is happening. You cant button mash or you will get instent ko
@@theendofit you really don't, For average - casual players revenge value is just a way for the game to tell player on how many attack they can do before the bosses break out It's really not that complex
I just don’t like it. There are SEVERAL more ways they could implement a mechanic to make sure you can’t stunlock bosses (and it fails at that job, if you know how to exploit it) but they chose an invisible unintuitive value that punishes you at seemingly random if you aren’t 1000% deliberate (at that point, just running a cheese loop) with your attacks. It’s frustrating and confusing. This is fine when the goal of the game is to be a game for children like how KH is up to proud, but I always roll my eyes when people say KH2 critical is peak action game design because god it’s such a frustrating slog unless you’ve watched 10 of these long and annoying guides. If you’re a regular person who just wants to understand a game by playing it, you basically get punished for that in KH2 critical. And before any of you people clap at me for saying this, you wouldn’t know what RV even was if the fandom hadn’t hacked the game open. They didn’t want you to see it.
In general, no. Most ground attacks including multihit ones deal 1 RV. Slapshot deals 1, Dodge Slash deals 0+0+1 (3 hits, only the 3rd hit deals 1 RV), Slide Dash deals 1+0 (2 hits, only the 1st hit deals 1 RV). This is explained for every attack in Ahirun's documentation in the description.
Nice video! The editing, explanation and visual representation of revenge value were great!
The revenge value system is very interesting with it's various advantages and disadvantages.
The system is very good at teaching the player to not be too aggressive, however something like demyx's forced revenge can feel unfair due to it not having that many options to react with outside of reflect. But regardless of this it isn't that big of a deal as the player will eventually learn the general idea of revenge value and to back off after a combo or so. Like many things in kh2 I think this system would have benefitted from some minor explanation to the player.
For example
"If you attack a boss for too long they may retaliate!"
The loopable nature of some forced revenges is what I would say is it's main weakness, however I think this is less of a limitation of the system but rather it's implementation. They actually improve on this in kh3's re:mind dlc with bosses that have attacks specifically for the forced revenges that don't have an opening and are very reactable thanks to aerial slide and aerial block.
Also attacks like Ars where the rv is applied on the last hit is so cool and whilst the use case of cancelling out of it probably wasn't intended, it allowed players with a good understanding of the game's systems to pull of some really cool combos. Sadly however I don't think we will see something like that again.
Anyway great video! I'll make sure to look out for your future content.
Great Video! It help he be clear about why the Negative Combo Loop works. Good to know
Fantastic explanation, probably the best video on revenge value I have seen, at least when it comes to the basics. The editing makes super easy to follow. I'd complement more if it was redundant, great stuff lol
I remember sucking at demyx when I was younger because I didn't know how abilities worked back then especially not having aerial recovery on in that fight was chao's for sure.
Yeah definitely. Demyx is one of the toughest bosses for new players, and it's all because of his disjointed, un-Guardable hitboxes, and his forced revenge eating you alive. At least you got past it at some point!
@@relaxedbatter Yeah & now he one of my favorite boss fights in the game.
I know that I am very late in this video, but know that kh series is finally on pc, and after completing 1 and CoM, I am playing 2 now, and this video will be very helpful, thanks, man!
No problem! Glad to be of help.
where you at homie im fighting data bosses and trying to beat lingering will rn
@@voidbg7017 i already beat the game and now i starting kh DDD (yes i did the data bosses and terra, annnnnd finished bbs )
@@serthimus2340 oh nice grats so far i got roxas axel and that card dude
great video, thank you
Honestly, a visual representation of revenge would've been a fantastic addition to the game, maybe like the bar present throughout the video under the health bar
6:48 Goofy getting one shot "bro can you not"🤣
nice
Thanks for the video. I'm about halfway into the game and after dying to silhouette larxene's forced revenge too many times I had to find out what was going on.
I do have a question though, I think the mechanic is definitely needed and works well in general but how do you know when you are close to triggering a forced revenge?
From what I understand there is no way other than trial and error. While this is fine to some extent that adds a lot of learning time to every fight, especially when the forced revenge can change based on the boss's phase. I kind of hope there's something I'm missing about knowing when you're close to triggering forced revenge because having to learn it for every combo and every boss sounds really tedious
There's a site in the description that details each boss's RVmax and if they change during the fight, but you can assume that the majority of bosses that stagger have a 12.5 RVmax. On top of that, most ground attacks deal 1 RV (3 for most finishers), and most air attacks deal 1.5 RV (3.5 for finishers).
Given that, your standard combo (without Combo Plus) usually deals 5 RV, or 6.5 RV while airborne. For most bosses, that leaves you with 2 combos per opening, with grounded being more safe than aerial.
The game doesn't tell you when this will occur, or that it's different depending on the boss, but the general idea IS trial and error (unless you study the values on the site in the description) to learn how the bosses react to your combos. In most situations, you can learn and adapt while fighting without much issue, given the game's difficulty isn't very high for most bosses outside of the optional ones, though the Absent Silhouettes among others can definitely make you feel like you have no time.
@@relaxedbatter thanks for the response. That explains a lot. I would do 2 air combos on larxene and hit forced revenge midair. Okay I'll try to work around the general rule of being cautious of a forced revenge after 2 full grounded combos and adjust it as needed. Honestly just knowing that is more comforting than nothing. I'll look on the website for the really hard ones I get stuck on.
I wish this was explained in some way in the game. This is my first playthrough and I'm on critical so while story bosses are like you said not too bad, anything that's optional has been kicking my ass and I've felt like I couldn't really fight back without getting attacked almost immediately. I appreciate the tip
I have a question about how stunlocks work, i'll take peter pan as an example, since the attacks he does don't add revenge value to the bosses but doesn't seem to prevent them from retaliating (like the overhead aerial finisher demonstrated in the video), so If i attacked a boss with him active (peter pan) It wouldn't be possible to do the stunlock since my attacks would still add revenge value to his guage and eventualy he'd retaliate, but as seen in a lot of videos what i described doesn't seem to be the case
Where does one get that RV Meter?
I made that myself through the power of post-production. However, if you're playing on an emulator or can otherwise input cheats into your game, there is a code that will change your HP into a visual representation of the boss's RV.
Otherwise, you'll have to visualize this bar in your mind by planning out your combo and researching the boss's RVmax in the links of the description.
@@relaxedbatter I think I'll just do it old school and plan out my attacks with the information you provided! Thank you very much for the links and nice video on RV! I can't wait to go put it to work because I love doing No Damage Runs :)
bro can u not
i hate revenge value system for one key reason. i dont mind it existing in harder difficulties. but it absolutely should not exist in the easiest and possibly not in the second esiest levels.
to me a child and a grand parent should both be able yo beat a game on easy.
these revenge values ad an insane level of complexity and meta gaming.
it makes the extra fights near impossible for people that dont know how games work on a more deep compex level. this is extra bad due to the ones that do a near insta kill no matter your level.
if i set up an acount at lvl 99 with max stats set to easiy for my mother or my niece to play both should be able to beat the whole game easily.
easy is not easy anymore with complex mechanics.
imagine requiring kids to ev train to have any chance at beating the elite 4. that would make the game stop being fun for most kids
The Battle Frontier (or Battle Maison, or whatever it is nowadays) does this, though. It changes stats that enemies have that you've already fought through the game to make them harder -- in the Frontier's case, nearly every enemy is EV trained and in some cases tries to even react to your team setup.
RV doesn't make these fights impossible -- you could go the entire game without knowing the concept exists, but you as a player should recognize a pattern through repetition. "At this point in my combo, Larxene breaks out and I get hit, so maybe I should back off instead of trying to push so hard." This is conditioning you to not go all in every opening, and is designed to prevent you from infinitely comboing bosses to death off of one opening.
Though, especially on Beginner, you can likely just tank most hits and whittle down their health. You have 120 HP and access to the best armor set in the game that reduces damage by upwards of 50%, not to mention all the healing options you have available to you. You have much more room for error the lower difficulty you play on.
I'm not going to say the data fights, Sephiroth, or Lingering Will are easy on Beginner but... they're not designed to be. They're supposed to test your skill you've accrued throughout the game and whether you understand how to deal with problems and come up with your own solutions with the options given to you. If not, that just means you have more to learn and possibly analyze about the boss and your own playstyle.
@@relaxedbatter honestly due to all the insta-kill and insta drop to 1hp attacks that the after game enimes have the difficulty setting makes almost no difference in those fights at least for me. i found it almost just as hard to beat it at every difficulty setting while the none gamers that played the whole game on easy could not beat even half the extra bosses. again all im saying is a feature that complicated should be disabled on easy i dont understand why thats such a hard concept that easy mode should be easy
in Pokémon if you just go in qith level 100 pokemon you can already do almost everything no meta gaming needed.
I think you exaggerate a little too hard on it.
Most people who played on standard or below won't notice this or have a bit of pattern recognition at most
@pandu vandal even on standard mode to beat all after end game bosses you absolutely need to know this is happening. You cant button mash or you will get instent ko
@@theendofit you really don't,
For average - casual players revenge value is just a way for the game to tell player on how many attack they can do before the bosses break out
It's really not that complex
I just don’t like it. There are SEVERAL more ways they could implement a mechanic to make sure you can’t stunlock bosses (and it fails at that job, if you know how to exploit it) but they chose an invisible unintuitive value that punishes you at seemingly random if you aren’t 1000% deliberate (at that point, just running a cheese loop) with your attacks. It’s frustrating and confusing. This is fine when the goal of the game is to be a game for children like how KH is up to proud, but I always roll my eyes when people say KH2 critical is peak action game design because god it’s such a frustrating slog unless you’ve watched 10 of these long and annoying guides. If you’re a regular person who just wants to understand a game by playing it, you basically get punished for that in KH2 critical.
And before any of you people clap at me for saying this, you wouldn’t know what RV even was if the fandom hadn’t hacked the game open. They didn’t want you to see it.
I’m a bit confused, does multi hitting attacks add more to the value (e.g. dodge slash) than something like slapshot?
In general, no. Most ground attacks including multihit ones deal 1 RV. Slapshot deals 1, Dodge Slash deals 0+0+1 (3 hits, only the 3rd hit deals 1 RV), Slide Dash deals 1+0 (2 hits, only the 1st hit deals 1 RV). This is explained for every attack in Ahirun's documentation in the description.
@@relaxedbatter thanks