Wow Brian, you COMPLETELY nailed my personality at 11:50 yes I'm absolutely a Johnny type player. I do care about winning, that is indeed the goal. But I would absolutely prefer to do it using my own deck. I would usually rather lose (but put up a good showing) with my own deck then win with somebody else's deck. I definitely get the MOST joy when one of my builds ends up winning. You are absolutely right about the love and passion is around the innovation. That's just who I am, it's what I do. I love to design, build, and create. Seeing people pick up decks I have made and posted online and do well with them gives me huge joy. Also, Brian's point at 12:38 is also spot on... I'm actually quite proud of how my Blue/Red Turbo Stasis deck turned out. I think it's significantly different then other Stasis decks and it's a solid deck. But just like Brian was saying... the current Metagame of Old School has a huge number of decks running 4x Disenchant main deck and even 1 to 2 Red Elemental Blast main deck. The current Meta is effectively pre-sideboarded against a deck like my Turbo Stasis. If I was going to a tournament and I didn't think everybody was running 4x Disenchant and lots of REB... I would probably switch back to Turbo Stasis. In fact I don't see that deck as a failure... I see it as a Tier 1 deck that's in my back pocket and ready to come out in the right meta.
I don't know if this has been stated yet, but from my understanding, Vorthos is a player that enjoys the game from a Story's perspective, or like in EDH, you build a deck based on a character/storyline.
AWESOME INTERVIEW!!!!! I was literally rolling on the floor laughing my ass off when he said that Timmy derives pleasure from dropping those 10 cmc cards and could care less about winning. Seriously effing funny.
Good conversation, but I disagree on why Johnny doesn't like playing agents spike. It is not because spike is foiling his plans. It is because he is doing it with a net deck. Johnny is thinking, "He did not even come up with that deck, he just went on Google to find it."
I don't personally dislike playing against spikes. I look at it as a challenge... can my deck beat one of the best decks? That's what's in my head. But yes I don't respect a person piloting a net deck nearly as much as I respect somebody whom builds their own.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer I like my deck to be the best it can be without sacrificing any fun. If I don't like the art of the card it's not going in my deck. Winning is the goal, but it is not where the fun comes from. Fun comes when your deck locks horns with your opponents deck and you don't know what's going to happen next. IMO
I completely agree, and it's what has kept me turned off to the standard format. I returned to the game around the release on M11, after about a ten year hiatus... At that time, you were either playing valacut, vengvine, J:tMS, or loosing. I very quickly shifted to commander (still only a casual format, and only known as EDH at the time), and through collecting for that, I got into legacy. A far better environment for Johnny.
I'm definitely a Johnny player (though was definitely more Timmy in my earlier playing days). I already knew this info, but Brian explained it very well I thought.... Thanks! PS: I can sorta see the Stockton resemblance (still all-time leader in assists and steals, and Gonzaga alum).
Used to be a Johnny through and through in the late 90s early 2000s. when I came back to magic I had to turn into a spike. Almost every card shop I go to its all about winning and I got tired of losing because I wanted to try new things out. Had to become a SPIKE because of nowadays magic culture, but I do miss the days of being a Johnny.
I feel your pain. When I ran into that same thing (nothing but tier 1 net decks at local tournaments) I stopped attending local tournaments and found other ways to play Magic. - EDH, Pauper and Old School were the best answers for a long time. Now that Pauper is so popular it's not nearly as un-explored and people are now net-decking pauper. Cube will ALWAYS be a fantastic way to recapture the old feeling of Magic without net decks or breaking the bank.
Hey guys, good job and very good overview of the psychographic profiles MaRo defined. However, I fundamentally disagree with one point in the video about what Brian said of there is no room for Timmys in OS. I can tell that there are few OS strategies that can be amazingly appealing for Timmys, a clear example is the Eureka decks that you see out there, those are 95% Timmy 5% Johnny decks. I also see those big robots decks (Juggy, Trske, and the crew) be also 65% Timmy 35% Spike decks most of the time. Just some examples that I can think of now as of top of my head. I personally see myself of an in-between of Johhny-Spike definitely. Always played to win and performed well in tournament but always under "my rules", my most common loved strategy has been storm in all formats I played that was legal.
I would say that playing Leviathan or Craw Giant / Lure is a Timmy thing. I started just before Fallen Empires was released, and for me, the Timmy excitement was derived from playing Colossus of Sardia. Back then I didn't know Mishra's Workshop existed, which really makes Colossus not so impressive.
Great explanation by Brian there. Thanks for setting this up Dan. I have read up on this but Brian adds further details and real life examples that only someone like him could, off the cuff and just speaking for almost half an hour. He knows his stuff that's for sure.
I'd say i'm a Timmy/Johnny. Don't play enough to truely move into a full Johnny atm. I'm definitely someone who would let others win or let others catch up. I prefer a fair fight. It doesn't interest me if for example, i have a much better deck than someone and just smashing them for smashing and winning sakes. Hqving said that i thought Brian had a great point about not holdiing oneself back and treating it seriously for both yourself and the other person.
Johnny with flashes of Timmy. Have a nice deck destruction deck that I will tinker with until the end of time. But favorite Timmy moment was getting out an early game Denying Wind and removing 7/10 of one land type from my friends library. Look on his face was priceless :)
I guess I'm a casual John, competitive spike from the land before time when I play ranked arena. Although i just unlocked an omniscience and made some fool suffer as I threw every 7+ drop creature in my deck onto the board in one turn lol. Johnny spike disguised as a Timmy lol
This categorization of Mtg Players is more than 15 years old. Isn't it a little late to talk about that ? (btw. I can't imagine that Daniel never heard about it, even Rudy from Alpha Investment talks really often about Timmy-Players) Vorthos is not exactly new as well and it is not a new archetype, but it is a different dimension. Melvin and Vorthos are merely the two ends of the scale for players' interest in flavour. So there can be a Vorthos Timmy and a Melvin Spike. Vorthos Timmy would love big splashy creatures that have nice artwork and evoke his fantasy. Melvin Spike would even play Magic if the cards were black & white and have names like Goblin A,B & C as long as Magic is challenging him.
I was a TIMMY when a begin playing MTG, i remember i always playing Green big monster creatures XD Now am a Johnny who loves to work with his blue and black control deck.
I'd argue that most players are some quantum superposition of all four, and that context sort of "collapses" that superposition. I love (or used to love) the Magic storyline, and I enjoy tuning and retuning mechanically interesting combo decks or playing "for fun" in fun contexts like pick up games-- I have a deck that takes infinite turns purely to beat an entire commander table to death with starfish and sponges-- but those things have a time and place. Tournament is about the slitting of throats-- within rules, of course-- and if you're playing to have fun at a tournament I'd argue you're being unsportsmanlike. You're being a "fish" and ruining a draft table or wrecking a carefully analyzed meta game purely for your own amusement. I am a Spike. I Winter Orb/Stasis/Smokestack/Mind Twist people like you, filthy Timmy/Johnny trash, and I enjoy it.
I've always been a Red/Blue Player... but I had a Land Destroyer deck with dual lands, stripmines, sinkholes, blackvise, birds of paradise, etc... and I can see you people would not want to play against me... I had this friend that was sad he never got to play his spiritmonger when apocalypse was around... I do feel being a Johnny brings a lot more enjoyment to the game making it last long or making you pull your weird combo... MTG is fun anyway you want to play it
i am a johnny, but i love playing my decks in competitive fields. it's easy to know if you are an "annoying" spike, because you seek to play decks that only care about winning in formats that are casual with casual players (timmys and johnnys that care less about winning than running pet cards out). annoying johnny players are guys that hate counters/ discard (esp. when they are running degenerate combo).
I like to do fun and impressive things, However, in my eyes these are not big, expensive creatures, but synergies that you maybe won't expect. So I play magic for having fun, but for me that also involves being creative, playing non-linearly and creating powerful effects that can win me the game. I acknowledge that if a strategy is not compatible, it's just not playable in a particular environment, since I also want win, but I won't go as far as making boring decks. I also don't like decks that lack aethetics and taste. If I win by copying someone else's deck, what's the point of it? It's not an earned win in my opinion. Does that mean, I'm mostly Johnny with a bit of Timmy and Spike?
My old Dromar deck used to run proteus staff (tuck was good then), and wheel... you know. It would have been hilarious if the only other creature in the deck was old Emrakul and not Magister Sphinx.
im a vorthos edh player with deck construction(tribal/lore/story driven), but im a johnny at heart that doesnt care to win if it means others have fun, and i will always try to be innovative and im never happy with my deck.. i am also a sucker for big creatures and impossibly huge spells that i might never get to play, so i have a timmy conscience... I guess im weird.... the only thing i know for sure is everything i do is to try and piss off the spike player
Interesting chat, but I'd join those who disagree with Brian's opinion on why Johnny dislikes Spike. It's only partly about whether or not Johnny gets to play their own stuff. (And winning by mana screwing the opponent doesn't lead to an interesting game - I don't have to respond to the threats of a mana screwed opponent and they don't get to play. Sure, it's funny once or twice but then it's just a dull game for both people. Congrats, Spike, you got to tick a box that said "win" but the game itself was boring.) This is an extreme way of saying it, but a Johnny's response to a Spike is something along these lines: "Oh look! They play that same dull deck! Instead of being able to be creative and interesting, Spike got someone else to do the thinking for them. All in the name of winning a card game. Come back when you turn into someone interesting, please." Obviously there's a lot of skill in the piloting as well as in the deck build. But (to a Johnny), Spike has already given up on half of the game's skill and just replaced it with a google search. Sometimes it feels a waste - they're good players and often better than I - what could they create if they weren't just playing that same deck over and over?
Lmao daniel you crack me up why on earth didnt you just let him explain the combo. Unless thats a video for another day kinda just rude to cut him off.
this was all a discussion of cards and not the key elements of the game, such that, your deck is never going to be successful against all decks unless you have some form of counter spell.
Seems like pretty negative way to sort people. You have a selfish tryhard that isn't able to reign themselves in for others mutual enjoyment, an uber casual that just wants to see stuff happen and gets compared to a child, and everyone else.
Wow Brian, you COMPLETELY nailed my personality at 11:50 yes I'm absolutely a Johnny type player. I do care about winning, that is indeed the goal. But I would absolutely prefer to do it using my own deck. I would usually rather lose (but put up a good showing) with my own deck then win with somebody else's deck. I definitely get the MOST joy when one of my builds ends up winning.
You are absolutely right about the love and passion is around the innovation. That's just who I am, it's what I do. I love to design, build, and create. Seeing people pick up decks I have made and posted online and do well with them gives me huge joy.
Also, Brian's point at 12:38 is also spot on... I'm actually quite proud of how my Blue/Red Turbo Stasis deck turned out. I think it's significantly different then other Stasis decks and it's a solid deck. But just like Brian was saying... the current Metagame of Old School has a huge number of decks running 4x Disenchant main deck and even 1 to 2 Red Elemental Blast main deck. The current Meta is effectively pre-sideboarded against a deck like my Turbo Stasis.
If I was going to a tournament and I didn't think everybody was running 4x Disenchant and lots of REB... I would probably switch back to Turbo Stasis. In fact I don't see that deck as a failure... I see it as a Tier 1 deck that's in my back pocket and ready to come out in the right meta.
Edwin is a spike #2 at GP VEGAS 2018
I don't know if this has been stated yet, but from my understanding, Vorthos is a player that enjoys the game from a Story's perspective, or like in EDH, you build a deck based on a character/storyline.
AWESOME INTERVIEW!!!!! I was literally rolling on the floor laughing my ass off when he said that Timmy derives pleasure from dropping those 10 cmc cards and could care less about winning. Seriously effing funny.
No place for timmy players in oldskool but then again they have gotten a dedicated format for them called commander :D
But we feel so bad beating them lol
Attention All Timmys: Target the blue players
Roger Roger
Good conversation, but I disagree on why Johnny doesn't like playing agents spike. It is not because spike is foiling his plans. It is because he is doing it with a net deck. Johnny is thinking, "He did not even come up with that deck, he just went on Google to find it."
I like playing against spikes, it helps tune my decks from the info i acquire via win or losses
I don't personally dislike playing against spikes. I look at it as a challenge... can my deck beat one of the best decks? That's what's in my head.
But yes I don't respect a person piloting a net deck nearly as much as I respect somebody whom builds their own.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer I like my deck to be the best it can be without sacrificing any fun. If I don't like the art of the card it's not going in my deck. Winning is the goal, but it is not where the fun comes from. Fun comes when your deck locks horns with your opponents deck and you don't know what's going to happen next. IMO
I completely agree, and it's what has kept me turned off to the standard format. I returned to the game around the release on M11, after about a ten year hiatus... At that time, you were either playing valacut, vengvine, J:tMS, or loosing. I very quickly shifted to commander (still only a casual format, and only known as EDH at the time), and through collecting for that, I got into legacy. A far better environment for Johnny.
I'm definitely a Johnny player (though was definitely more Timmy in my earlier playing days). I already knew this info, but Brian explained it very well I thought.... Thanks! PS: I can sorta see the Stockton resemblance (still all-time leader in assists and steals, and Gonzaga alum).
Used to be a Johnny through and through in the late 90s early 2000s. when I came back to magic I had to turn into a spike. Almost every card shop I go to its all about winning and I got tired of losing because I wanted to try new things out. Had to become a SPIKE because of nowadays magic culture, but I do miss the days of being a Johnny.
I feel your pain. When I ran into that same thing (nothing but tier 1 net decks at local tournaments) I stopped attending local tournaments and found other ways to play Magic.
- EDH, Pauper and Old School were the best answers for a long time. Now that Pauper is so popular it's not nearly as un-explored and people are now net-decking pauper.
Cube will ALWAYS be a fantastic way to recapture the old feeling of Magic without net decks or breaking the bank.
Hey guys, good job and very good overview of the psychographic profiles MaRo defined. However, I fundamentally disagree with one point in the video about what Brian said of there is no room for Timmys in OS. I can tell that there are few OS strategies that can be amazingly appealing for Timmys, a clear example is the Eureka decks that you see out there, those are 95% Timmy 5% Johnny decks. I also see those big robots decks (Juggy, Trske, and the crew) be also 65% Timmy 35% Spike decks most of the time. Just some examples that I can think of now as of top of my head.
I personally see myself of an in-between of Johhny-Spike definitely. Always played to win and performed well in tournament but always under "my rules", my most common loved strategy has been storm in all formats I played that was legal.
I would say that playing Leviathan or Craw Giant / Lure is a Timmy thing. I started just before Fallen Empires was released, and for me, the Timmy excitement was derived from playing Colossus of Sardia. Back then I didn't know Mishra's Workshop existed, which really makes Colossus not so impressive.
Among all the Allegeance spoilers mtg videos THIS is real gold. Should get all the views!
Great explanation by Brian there. Thanks for setting this up Dan. I have read up on this but Brian adds further details and real life examples that only someone like him could, off the cuff and just speaking for almost half an hour. He knows his stuff that's for sure.
I'd say i'm a Timmy/Johnny. Don't play enough to truely move into a full Johnny atm. I'm definitely someone who would let others win or let others catch up. I prefer a fair fight. It doesn't interest me if for example, i have a much better deck than someone and just smashing them for smashing and winning sakes. Hqving said that i thought Brian had a great point about not holdiing oneself back and treating it seriously for both yourself and the other person.
Always interesting when Brian is on the show. Thanks!
Timmy/Spike here. Maybe that's because Rise of Eldrazi was my first set.
Johnny with flashes of Timmy. Have a nice deck destruction deck that I will tinker with until the end of time. But favorite Timmy moment was getting out an early game Denying Wind and removing 7/10 of one land type from my friends library. Look on his face was priceless :)
Thanks so much for the conversation... Absolutely fascinating! I'm a Johnny, through and through.
My play group forced my style into being a Johnny but I’m still a Timmy at heart
It seems like the Tencent purchase has treaded Brian well. Congrats!
I guess I'm a casual John, competitive spike from the land before time when I play ranked arena. Although i just unlocked an omniscience and made some fool suffer as I threw every 7+ drop creature in my deck onto the board in one turn lol. Johnny spike disguised as a Timmy lol
Vorthos is flavor oriented, Melvin is rules oriented
I'm a timmy for life. I always draft the bombs. Counterspells suck. Mill sucks. Let me play my creatures!
This categorization of Mtg Players is more than 15 years old. Isn't it a little late to talk about that ?
(btw. I can't imagine that Daniel never heard about it, even Rudy from Alpha Investment talks really often about Timmy-Players)
Vorthos is not exactly new as well and it is not a new archetype, but it is a different dimension.
Melvin and Vorthos are merely the two ends of the scale for players' interest in flavour.
So there can be a Vorthos Timmy and a Melvin Spike.
Vorthos Timmy would love big splashy creatures that have nice artwork and evoke his fantasy. Melvin Spike would even play Magic if the cards were black & white and have names like Goblin A,B & C as long as Magic is challenging him.
I'm always learning...its cool to hear people's insights, stay positive my friend
Omg I’m a Timmy.
lol
I was a TIMMY when a begin playing MTG, i remember i always playing Green big monster creatures XD Now am a Johnny who loves to work with his blue and black control deck.
I play commander, and all my decks are completely different, but when I play my big dinos is when I'm having the most fun 😅
I'd argue that most players are some quantum superposition of all four, and that context sort of "collapses" that superposition. I love (or used to love) the Magic storyline, and I enjoy tuning and retuning mechanically interesting combo decks or playing "for fun" in fun contexts like pick up games-- I have a deck that takes infinite turns purely to beat an entire commander table to death with starfish and sponges-- but those things have a time and place. Tournament is about the slitting of throats-- within rules, of course-- and if you're playing to have fun at a tournament I'd argue you're being unsportsmanlike. You're being a "fish" and ruining a draft table or wrecking a carefully analyzed meta game purely for your own amusement. I am a Spike. I Winter Orb/Stasis/Smokestack/Mind Twist people like you, filthy Timmy/Johnny trash, and I enjoy it.
the exception of course being when you're relatively new and don't know how to play well yet; then all is forgivable.
I've always been a Red/Blue Player... but I had a Land Destroyer deck with dual lands, stripmines, sinkholes, blackvise, birds of paradise, etc... and I can see you people would not want to play against me... I had this friend that was sad he never got to play his spiritmonger when apocalypse was around... I do feel being a Johnny brings a lot more enjoyment to the game making it last long or making you pull your weird combo... MTG is fun anyway you want to play it
Lmao I thought he was stroking Vintage MTG's leg at the beginning there because of the angle and eye contact at 0:34.
Me? I just enjoy taking my time trying out new decks and making new friends along the way. It's the journey that counts m80s
The Floppy Investor Taki Taco player. You forgot that one.
Im a johnny i like building weird decks and winning odd ball shit
I dont get pissed either i carry my own spike decks lol but not my preference
He's clearly a Carl Malone vesuvan doppelganger
yeah, its Karl....
i am a johnny, but i love playing my decks in competitive fields. it's easy to know if you are an "annoying" spike, because you seek to play decks that only care about winning in formats that are casual with casual players (timmys and johnnys that care less about winning than running pet cards out). annoying johnny players are guys that hate counters/ discard (esp. when they are running degenerate combo).
We make fun of Timmy but we honestly need more of him.
So interesting. I am such a SPIKE! 🥳
that explains who rudys always appealing to. (spikes)
I like to do fun and impressive things, However, in my eyes these are not big, expensive creatures, but synergies that you maybe won't expect. So I play magic for having fun, but for me that also involves being creative, playing non-linearly and creating powerful effects that can win me the game. I acknowledge that if a strategy is not compatible, it's just not playable in a particular environment, since I also want win, but I won't go as far as making boring decks. I also don't like decks that lack aethetics and taste. If I win by copying someone else's deck, what's the point of it? It's not an earned win in my opinion. Does that mean, I'm mostly Johnny with a bit of Timmy and Spike?
I'm totally a Johnny, still using Trix.
My old Dromar deck used to run proteus staff (tuck was good then), and wheel... you know. It would have been hilarious if the only other creature in the deck was old Emrakul and not Magister Sphinx.
im a vorthos edh player with deck construction(tribal/lore/story driven), but im a johnny at heart that doesnt care to win if it means others have fun, and i will always try to be innovative and im never happy with my deck.. i am also a sucker for big creatures and impossibly huge spells that i might never get to play, so i have a timmy conscience... I guess im weird.... the only thing i know for sure is everything i do is to try and piss off the spike player
Interesting chat, but I'd join those who disagree with Brian's opinion on why Johnny dislikes Spike. It's only partly about whether or not Johnny gets to play their own stuff. (And winning by mana screwing the opponent doesn't lead to an interesting game - I don't have to respond to the threats of a mana screwed opponent and they don't get to play. Sure, it's funny once or twice but then it's just a dull game for both people. Congrats, Spike, you got to tick a box that said "win" but the game itself was boring.)
This is an extreme way of saying it, but a Johnny's response to a Spike is something along these lines: "Oh look! They play that same dull deck! Instead of being able to be creative and interesting, Spike got someone else to do the thinking for them. All in the name of winning a card game. Come back when you turn into someone interesting, please."
Obviously there's a lot of skill in the piloting as well as in the deck build. But (to a Johnny), Spike has already given up on half of the game's skill and just replaced it with a google search.
Sometimes it feels a waste - they're good players and often better than I - what could they create if they weren't just playing that same deck over and over?
So Spikes are just netdeckers?
I never heard of the this be for, I'm johnny player old school, on Arena I'm the Nope guy, yes it's my Spike Beachs.
Yeah no doubt on Stockton. N both pretty sharp gents!
Excellent video!
More please :-)
Guess I'm a timmy player "hehe big Dino go squish"
Beautiful prints!
I did….he does look just like him
I'm a spike but I like people to belive I'm a timmy :)
he does look like Stockton lol
Lmao daniel you crack me up why on earth didnt you just let him explain the combo. Unless thats a video for another day kinda just rude to cut him off.
Can you make a video of this guy explaining his cheating methods in his last game? Everyone’s talking about it
Timmy’s rise up
This is so awesome
this was all a discussion of cards and not the key elements of the game, such that, your deck is never going to be successful against all decks unless you have some form of counter spell.
Why is that man petting his own knee?
Good to know I was innovating, and apparently cheating years ago even though I've never played in an official mtg tournament in my life lol
110% Johnny Player :D
i am johnny that likes to win
Vorthos and Melvin are the others
It's not the same game if you just are there to try to lose
Timmies unite!
That's not John Stockton. I shook his hand before. Nice try Daniel. Lol
You only step to brian if you’re into a beating 😜
Super hq !
Playing to have... "FUN!" Is letting other people beat you and not teaching them to play the same game, just shuffle cards and get off
Wow, he's kind of hot.
Seems like pretty negative way to sort people. You have a selfish tryhard that isn't able to reign themselves in for others mutual enjoyment, an uber casual that just wants to see stuff happen and gets compared to a child, and everyone else.
Hahahaha