I'd argue that the aesthetic profiles (Mel and Vorthos) are even more important in 40K than they are in Magic. Or at least Vorthos is. The fantasy/lore of each army is a big part of them, and the dedication it takes to assemble and paint them all pushes you to get at least a little invested in that sort of thing.
@@thepoorhammerpodcast didn’t even know those two profiles existed, and boy they are necessary when discussing 40K. Vorthos is like, a good chunk of the entire community as painting and reading lore is the primary way for a lot of people to enjoy 40K, myself included.
Melvin (Mike when I learned it) seems really good too. The gameplay = story aspect. This character does this because of story and it translates well in game.
@@thepoorhammerpodcast Ah, Was going to mention that Mark actually added a "new" article (and by new I mean 2015...). Yeah, Would have been cool to see how you feel the Factions would fit into them.
Me at the start of this episode: "Man, I bet I'm mostly Johnny with a fair amount of Timmy mixed in." Brad and Erik describing any army I play: "This is the most Timmy shit I've ever seen."
Another thing about these personalities is that while everyone has all 3 of these, I think that oftentimes two will inform the one. Example, I have a stronger Johnny than Timmy or Spike, but how I choose to self express, or the catalyst for an idea, can be informed by Timmy or Spike. Like, "this army/list is very strong, but I want to win MY way," or "Man this model is freaking cool, I wonder how I can make it work effectively?"
Those are exactly my thoughts. I would think, I am like 50% Johnny, 40% Spike and 10% Timmy. This varies depending on context and the three interact with each other. ("Is it really strong enough?" - "Does this work how I want it to work?" - "But this model....")
I think there is an aspect to the armies that has gone partially ignored here - the dice. There was some talk of how Spike wants to minimize randomness/dice chance, but my Timmy brain jumps with glee when picking up giant handfuls of dice, doesn't matter how they roll or if they are even useful - flinging two handfuls of cubes like birdshot is just plain fun.
(Vorthos moment) The moment I realized I wanted to build Knights was when I was flipping thru the codex and each sample Knight had actual written backstory, and my brain reflexively made the backstory for my first knight. It's like making a D&D character, you shouldn't be allowed to field a Knight if they don't have a name and backstory. -edit:Vorthos not Johny. Also I just realized Johnny has Stifle on his shirt, and it's the perfect card. Timmy wouldn't run interaction, Spike runs goodstuff like Counterspell, Bolt, etc. Only Johny would run Stifle to counter one ability. But Stifle is also his worst fear, it ruins his perfect intricate combo.
More like a Vorthos moment, as you’re doing it for story. Unless you like how the units play exactly how you’d imagine irl, then Melvin. Whereas Johnny looks at how to combo abilities to do something crazy even if it doesn’t win them the game, so long as they did the complicated stupid move.
I completely agree, from an aesthetic point of view it's quite Timmy (or it just procs my Timmy lol). It's a very over the top army with the pipe organ missiles, small ladies with guns as big as them, nun mechs etc... I do have to agree with them though that gameplay wise they're more spike/johny
The esthetic us very Timmy but if you meet SOB play (hi, its me) you'll find that they wont use the tanks. Maybe a rhino for some Flamer Redistributors most but mostly no tanks (shame tho. Hoping the Tank changes in 10th will make them a viable choice
I think everything in 40K has at least a little Timmy. The universe is so over the top and dumb in a good way and The minis are so in your face about their aesthetic, that you just have to be a Timmy to play 40k.
40K is built, first and foremost, on Rule of Cool. There's a certain baseline of Spectacle that runs through every army, that Timmy can attach to. If committed enough to a particular brand of Cool, Timmy will tolerate anything. That said, some armies facilitate Timmy's fun better than others. Some, like Knights or Orks, are _made_ for Timmy.
Seeing admech in Spike was a shock to me but the explanation made a lot of sense. I see myself as a Timmy-Johnny-Spike (in that order) and just love the look and flavor of admech and the jankyness of how they play. Its like standing in the control room of chernobyl and just marveling at all the cool buttons and knobs and indicators. I never would have considered how that would usually appeal more to spikes. Fascinating stuff!
I think they were off the mark by labelling Ad Mech - and especially GSC - as mainly Spike-type factions. I see them as leaning more heavily towards Johnny for much of the same reasons as Thousand Sons. I really like your control room metaphor! Johnny *wants* to be in that control room with a million buttons. Even if there's an easier, or better, path to victory. Spike *tolerates* it - IF it's the best path to victory. Or if he sees that he can just ignore 90% of the buttons and focus on the "important" ones. Timmy *dislikes* being in that room. He will want to leave, even if staying is the best path to victory. He wants fewer - but bigger - buttons
Timmy is the kind of guy, who loves playing "high risk" strategies. It doesn't matter that it didn't work out the past 19 times, because the ONE TIME it does work out, it's going to be absolutely amazing and he'll speak about it for days. Hell, everyone in the LGS speaks about it for days. To Timmy, Warhammer is a "playground", in which they want to have fun. Johnnys come in all different shapes and sizes. Some want to show off their cool kitbashes, some want to tell you about the lore of their custom hero, some want to show you this cool synergy they found. But at its very core, the Johnny wants to say "Look at cool thing I did". To Johnny, Warhammer is a stage, in which they present themselves. Spikes generally care about "proving something". Usually it's winning, but sometimes it's also making a bad thing work. To a Spike, there is a challenge, and they want to show you that they can overcome it. To them, Warhammer is a skill test, in which they have to prove that they have the skills. --- I would argue that Johnny can find some joy in Orks, especially kitbashing. Johnny is the kind of guy, who has a one-of-a-kind model for everything in his army. His Gorkanaut has been kitbashed from two jets and looks like a transformer. His Warboss uses a 3D printed space marine armor, painted like ultramarines, and then "hastily" painting black and white over to show his Warboss is a true Goff git. All of these are about self expression too.
Man you hit the nail on the head for Tau, got into them purely for lore and aesthetics for my first army. First couple of games with friends and I am shooting all their stuff off of the board and doing nothing else. Felt terrible. So I got GK for my second army and being able to customize my list for the game to be more interactive is amazing. Plus the fact that i play in more than one phase with GK hahaha
Perfect placement for T’au. Came for the Battlesuits, still here for the Battlesuits, but I’ve been forced into a Spike playstyle to avoid getting tabled too quickly If I’m playing with someone newer to the hobby or someone I’ve built a rapport with, I skew towards a less competitive battlesuit bash list. But for every other match it feels like I have to constantly be playing 3D chess to have a fighting chance and I know how frustrating that can be to play against
Yeah I have a friend who just has the leviathan box tyranids, and I have been trying to run stuff that is fun for them but most of my stuff is xv8 and hammerhead tanks. Most everything I have is brutal to play against for that box.
We like warp spiders because we like warp spiders, not because their minis haven’t been updated. This can also apply to a lot of other aspect warriors :(
I'm almost completely a Timmy, I know that I can't play enough to "get good" so I instead play to have fun instead as it feels less bad about a butt kicking, though I'm older and I think as you get older you try to maximize fun with the little free time you have.
There's one more psychographic that never seemed to have gotten as much traction as the remaining three - Vorthos (I guess the weird name does play a part in its unpopularity). These are the players who are in the game mostly for the lore, story and self-expression via those things, in Warhammer that would likely also include the hobby part, in particular kitbashing and inventing our own paintjobs. When I was buying into the Guard, it was less for the big tanks and more because I wanted to create My Guys I could identify with and because all the regimental organisation to invent and all the characters to name.
I think it would be cool to discuss how a Timmy, Johnny, and a Spike view balance and what they see as balanced. Because you can definitely see what a Spike wants in balance but not so much the other two.
I think thats almost the point, Timmy doesn’t really care if some stuff is a bit weaker or stronger than others, he just likes the big moments. Johnny on the other hand almost likes having a disparity in some factions to prove that bad things can be good.
@@ultrimarines9198 I can definitely see that but I would be interested what the limits are exactly. Like a Timmy wouldn't want extremely weak factions and extremely strong factions because that would ruin the variety. Similar to Johnny. I think there is a lot to dig in there even if it wouldn't be a long video.
One thing I think Timmy likes is the ability to get to the fight. Timmy is here for spectacle. He's here to Do The Thing. If his units get shot off the board before it's possible to do anything, that's no fun for Timmy. Win or lose, Timmy wants the fight to happen. It's why Timmy gravitates towards sturdy armies, like Death Guard or Custodes or Knights. Fragile armies that require lots of maneuvering to get into position without being destroyed are less appealing, as it "gets in the way" of doing what Timmy wants. Whereas Johnny sees positioning as a challenge, and Spike will do anything if it lets them win consistently.
I think a Timmy balanced game would mean that every faction could do a big flashy thing or had fun rules. Likely rules that skew away from simple numerical changes and more towards things that change the board state. Best "Timmy Balanced" factions are probably Orks and 10th Daemons. A Johnny balanced game is simpler to put to paper but more demanding to create: each faction needs to a) have unique mechanics through which players can express themselves, and b) have some unique tech or depth deeper within the faction through which players can express themselves and / or their mastery.
@@MasterFustache that does sound like how those types would balance the game. Timmy is just all flash while Johnny is all expression. I imagine a Spike would just want a game that is minmax to hell.
Tau feels like it wants to be in between Johnny an timmy sadly it lacks the support for it. Full battlesuit lists are hard because stealth teams can't replace troops or a lot of players want to run auxiliary lists but tau has only 2 alien races. one example of johnny that we got is a crisis suit death blob. i just wish we had more support for the other playstyles. I do agree that tau has a spike element to it that it doesn't want. Great podcast!
Johnny is the strongest for me, and what pushed me towards GSC. I had my custom lore for my cult, and all their kitbashes and weird combos figured out before I painted my girst neophyte. As an afterthought, coming from D&D, Johnny very much reminds me of my old grappler and grapple mage builds I used to theorycraft - do something dumb and suboptimal to a level it's actually effective.
Fantastic analysis! One thing i do like to add to Timmy, Johnny, Spike discussions is that all of them are important to the health of your game Timmy: This will be the majority of your playerbase. They are also usually the best at getting people into your game as they're often better able to show folks your game at its most approachable Johnny: They are your tinkerers/mad scientist. They find that one unit with a unique effect and try to build a list around it. They best show off the insane nonsense you can pull in a game. Spike: They're the ones that know the game inside and out. Spikes show off the mechanical and strategic depth of your game.
As someone who strongly identifies as a Timmy, I'm glad to see that you rated Orks so clearly in my corner of the triangle. ...but let's be honest, i wouldn't stop loving them even if you had put them anywhere else. WAAAAAAAAAGH!
@RagDollRatnew player here, and I grabbed GSC units because I read books and played some games, and have always been a fan of the Nids and GSC, so got into the game when the Leviathan box dropped and got a combat patrol of GSC because I wanted to make a cult based on the Hive Fleet I am making
I feel like a Timmy-Spike combo is especially toxic if they aren't self-aware. EDIT: After watching up to the Custodes part, I realized that I am a Timmy-Spike lmao
im currently working on that, too. i feel so shitty about getting all caught up in my frustrations and wanting to win; it needs to be fun for everyone, not just me
That's interesting! I think there's very little overlap in (possible) positive or negative traits between Timmy and Spike. Which can be a good thing, if the positives cancel out the negatives. But can also make it pretty miserable to play against someone that has the negative traits of both. Timmy is probably the most likely to pout when you kill his units. Because then he doesn't get to do the exciting thing! Spike doesn't care if all their units are killed, if that helps them win the game. But Spike probably has the highest risk of being a sore loser. A "bad" Timmy-Spike wants their units to kill all of your units, but will get mad when their own units are killed. And then be a sore loser afterwards. But a "good" Timmy-Spike celebrates when exciting stuff happens for either player. And can enjoy the act of *playing* to win whether or not they actually win.
Maybe I'm a "good" Timmy-Spike? I don't play meta lists because I buy models based on aesthetic, but I memorize rules, measure sight lines carefully, MathHammer religiously to figure out which of my units should go into their units, and enjoy winning on points. But at one and the same time, I play Evil Sunz Orks, everything I have goes FASTA and my favorite part of the game is yelling WAAAAAGH! Having fun with my opponent is way more important than winning, but I'll still read all my opponents rules and data sheets before the game and come up with detailed game plans.
@@scotwilcox1771 I think it's a misconception that Timmy is the only one who play to have fun. All the archetypes play to have fun - they just have different definitions of what "fun" means. A "bad" Johnny/Timmy/Spike is someone who thinks only their own idea of fun is valid, someone who only cares about *their own* enjoyment of the game, and/or acts poorly when what they consider fun doesn't happen. A "bad" Timmy-Spike isn't someone who plays metalists or strong factions. There's absolutely nothing wrong with any of that! A "bad" Timmy-Spike is someone who gets annoyed if Johnny is focused on his complicated combo rather than joining in a "WAAAGH" yell at that moment. That's not having fun. That's insisting on having fun in a way that makes Johnny have less fun. For perspective, I'm somewhat of an anti-Timmy. I love the social aspect of the game, friendly banter and having a laugh while playing. But I mostly find Timmy's idea of having fun in a game very unappealing. And I tend to have the least fun when playing against Timmys. I have fun by *competing* , trying to play my absolute best, and thinking of clever solutions to in-game problems.
Wow you guys summed up Tau perfectly and made me realize why I sold my army. I'm like 70% Timmy and that faction was miserable to play. I tried making some weird combos and refused to play certain units, and it just got me continually curb stomped. You're forced to Spike so hard despite their being an illusion of Johnny and Timmy.
I tried a few factions before falling for the sisters, it's the beauty of the models and the joy of painting them that drives us. I'm predominantly a Johnny but I'm convinced asthetics drives sisters players. I love my big dumb Space Wolves but, assembling and painting Sisters just hits different.
My Johnny tries to make Timmy things work in a Spike world. I find analyzing how the three profiles serve each other in your goals as a player is the best way to make use of the system.
I think I lean most heavily Johnny. I got into Orks because I like their junkyard vehicles and I just really like making different combinations of those that synergize in interesting ways
I have to congratulate you guys on being the only podcast that's been entertaining for me. The great editing and fun topics always keep me coming back for more.
The thing about broken combos and interactions that 'weren't meant to be discovered.' implies that GW even knew those interactions were there. Their testing sessions are much more limited than they would need to be for all the interactions and combos to come up at least once during the test games. You can see so many examples in the past where GW didn't think that anyone would take a certain option, just for that specific option to wind up breaking the game. I think they should swallow the inevitability of leaks and go for a beta-testing scheme using actual players, where there is a period of time where we get the basics of the new edition to play test ourselves and report back to GW with issues and suggestions. If it's done right the statistics of an exercise like that should clearly show what needs fixing. I'm sure it would be a logistical nightmare, but the end product would be much better off, and maybe there'd be less perceived need for a new edition every few years.
The funniest thing is I am extremely Timmy with a bit of Jonny, but I'm currently starting a list of Drukhari, who you call a Spike army", for the undeniably Timmy reason of "flying pirates??" Even more amusingly, your podcast a couple weeks ago on Each Faction Tries to Sell You a New Knight you said the Tantalus didn't have Timmy factor, it was the first time I saw the model and I immediately said GIANT FLYING PIRATE SHIP? I NEED THAT. And now im making a new army. 😅
Drukhari are fundamentally Johnny with the emphasis on listbuilding, piece-trading, and in-game decision making (you are one of armies with most options in terms of gameplay). The Timmy vs Spike comes in when you decide to which purpose you harness that Johnny energy.
Coming from kill team, I actually started collecting GSC because in that game they're a very Timmy army - its one of the few teams that lets you take characters, and how could I say no to a three-armed cowboy?
I also came from KT to 40k with GSC, but it's Johnny reasons for me. I love their weird interactions, and for me they hands down has the best lore. I also love customizing/kitbashing models to work with the backstory you came up with for them, which I think GSC is probably the best suited for. (Next to maybe orks)
As more of a johnny style player generally, I am not scared to admitt hat Custodes bring out my inner timmy and GSC brings out my inner spike. I play super casually so I can get away with really dumb lists a lot, so I might not be the best point of comparison.
This was a really interesting video. I’d love to see a psychographics video of all of the SM chapters (loyal and traitor). Keep up the great work lads! The Emperor protects!
I really appreciate your content. It is very different from every other Warhammer TH-camr I watch and I find that refreshing. I also hope they add more complexity to Necrons. I started back up in 9th and they seem very basic compared to some of the army's I have played against.
I was drawn in to the hobby through the Timmy in me. First army list was Alpha Legion with an allied Chaos Knight. That knight Desecrator alone dragged me in to the hobby. Now I’m a bit more Vorthos dominant with my army building. Rare to no chaos taint with my boys in blue, but there are some.
Loved the video, I am fortunate because my "Johnny" persona usually is dominate from game to game. In magic I am definitely more of a Johnny/Spike but Warhammer, I see all three there, but I am definitely more of a Johnny/Timmy player! I love big plays, but I love expressing myself and my tactics through the game. Great job again!
I am a Johnny pretty much to a T… after hearing it explained, I love making a plan (especially with something considered less than optimal) and surprising people with it and watching my plan unfold! The exception apparently is Dwarves… I will usually Timmy super hard for dwarves as I don’t usually care I just want short guys with beards haha.
I'd probably argue after listening to this that there's defo more archetypes than simple Timmy, Johnny and Spike - mainly I think between Timmy and Johnny you've got players who cater their armies to narrative or lore-based stuff - they're not so concerned with rule interactions etc as they're making an army that more fits a narrative or style, but they're not really Timmy because they're not just picking the biggest, coolest things because they're constraining themselves to the external source of the lore surrounding that faction. I'd say a lot of Horus Heresy players fit into this archetype, as well as stuff like 40k players who play stuff like Marine chapters that aren't necessarily competitive but they want to represent their lore on the tabletop. Additionally I'd also argue that there's at least 2 kinds of Spike - so you've got the Spike who represents competitive players who want a challenge, and that's your Genestealer Cults or AdMech players, who want to win games but find their enjoyment in the challenge of developing new or complex tactics, or original list building. A lot of the faction-specific channels on here like say Blood Angels Commander fall into this list, as they're happy to play a faction they like even if at times they're the underdog, but enjoy finding ways they can win against the odds. They're good sports, but they're still there to win. Then there's the other type of Spike player - who doesn't care about the complexity of the game or developing new tactics and simply wants to win at all costs. They mainly care about the meta right now, they're happy to jump between armies to whatever meta is overpowered right now rather than adjust their tactics for a chosen faction. They're the easiest to name; they're a Dave. Because That Guy is nearly always called Dave (sorry Daves). A true Spike is the kind of person who comes up with the Speedwaagh because they wanted to see what would happen. Once it becomes apparent it's ridiculously overpowered they move on and try to do something more challenging. A Dave is the kind of guy who hears about it then immediately buys 9 trucks on ebay. Then cries when a month later GW say he can only have 3.
replace "bad" with "sub-optimal" choice... it will allow the audience to focus on mechanics which you are referencing and not the good/evil lore aspect some might conflate with the terms. fantastic video. keep up the work.
I would say Sisters are the perfect Johnny army, because you can remove random factor, and this means you can do even crazier combos than you would normally do. They have that dash of Spikiness, just to make it that more rewarding.
You were pretty spot in with Guard. I chose them as my first army because I loved the lore of just regular humans winning through blistering firepower and tungsten balls. I'm not very competitive (though I guess the tiny bit of Spike I have enjoys that they're pretty good right now) but mostly I'm interested in how can I make this list synergize and what's the coolest aesthetic I can give my units. Hell I'm probably gonna homebrew a regiment just so I can give my Cadians gas masks and urban camo
It hasn’t been said but deserves a statement, spikes are favored by Johnny and Timmy in horde mode games as spike will build their army to exploit the fact there are 1-3 other ally armies on the field they can theory craft weird soup shenanigans like things that would happen if somehow tau, vottan, aeldari are being attacked by tyrannids. Like suddenly Timmy’s stupid army survives longer and start whipping units because spike buffed them with psykers or something.
Thanks for saving my day by uploading this episode. Edit: holy shit, I'm Johnny. I rarely win anything but casual games with my assault terminator Carcharodon spam...but goddamn it's fucking cool, and very much satisfies my desire for cool
I agree with the majority of what you guys are saying, but I personally like to think Eldar(Craftworld) have a little more Spike in them than mentioned. Eldar reward you a lot in knowing how to postion them due to their squishiness like SoB, we just have a better movement profile that does make the job easier. We also now have Strands of Fate, which helps limit variance a small amount (not enough for a Spike but something that they would appreciate), where knowing where and when to pick can make a big impact. Although this is coming from someone who started in 9th and is primarily a Johnny (why I like the Eldar and UM), so what I see could be skewed by that. I will say again I don't think that the Eldar are primarily Spike-y just that there is enough of it in them to warrant mentioning.
As someone who is looking to get a Porphyrion because they're as tall as a titan, I fully agree with the Timmy aspect about knights. There is just something fun about plopping down 7 colossal models on the table and firing off massive guns from each knight
My list building definitely is mixture of all three. I pick something I love, a model or theme or a strategy, whatever, and I build the most optimal list to make it work to the absolute best. I definitely am competitive and I always want to improve and challenge myself, and of course, win. But I'm not a bad sportsman.
I was happy I found a Johnny playstyle for Votann with custom subfactions: +1S to beam weapons, making the thunderkyn conversion beamer S7 -> 8 and bonus to charge towards judgement tokens allowing a good chance to charge from deep strike. I'm sad I haven't been able to build my army up to play anything higher than 500p games to experience these mechanics meaningfully before the 10th rules reset.
As a Johnny with heavy Timmy influence, I hate Spikes with a burning passion. Final Destination with no items and both players must be Fox and it must be Melee. Halo 3 but only the BR and no weapon spawns on the map and only on Guardian. I hate these people who make the game as unfun for others as possible because it lets them win more. They’re the same people who think that the game they play (any game) being unbalanced is a good thing because it lets them stomp newbs, even if the unbalanced nature kills the game’s competitive scene in the long term (cough halo cough) because nothing but mirror matches is BORING.
Can you guess what army i got? In my case, Normaly Timmy or Spike get excited about a list (because is fun, silly, or good) then Jhonny comes in to make the list cohesive and thematic. And spike comes last to swap some stuff because we're going against chaff units, We Need More Shots!! . Tyranids of course
I like that it's said that everyone has parts of all three. Still, there's no way I'm bringing a Sprocyst and a bunch of Hormagaunts and not leaning into that Johnny aspect. I try to win obviously, but I'd feel dirty playing Crusher Stampede (ever) or Leviathan with Warrior spam. A win doesn't mean anything if I have to use something that is clearly broken in order to achieve it.
I've been a Timmy-Jimmy player for a long time after starting as a Spike, and holy crap all of my armies dropped into the Timmy corner with the exception of my new army CSM, which I picked for the exact reasons you guys talked about and that I definitely snagged to appease my Jimmy. Granted...Timmy seems to be the most common army type but still.
After the introduction and reading the articel I see myself as mostly a Timmy and Johnny. Not surprised that I landed on Imperial Guard as my army of choice after watching the video XD
I think I'm a natural Spike, but I had to learn to embrace Timmy as I don't have the patience to actually learn how to win the game 😅 Orks help me to process this strange psychological landscape. Orks give Timmy a _lot_ of _big stupid things_ to _do_ and see what happens 😁
I feel like on element of Spike was largely overlooked. The mastery aspect. Spike likes to demonstrate their mastery of the game systems. So things like finesse and heavily positional armies would appeal to Spike
I used to play purely hyper competitive modern and then legacy, I recommend that every spike out there find another part of the hobby they love. Magic burnt me out, because I couldn’t put in the time to get any better, so I don’t play much magic anymore. I went to warhammer where I read one book about the guard fell in love and built the guard army my heart told me to instead of the meta. Some day I’m sure I’ll build a super comp stomp tau list or something someday when they are broken. If it’s a hobby and not a job, Find the hobby you love and then engage your competitive side because when a hobby is purely competitive it’s becomes a chore in my experience.
Hmm, very interesting video. I do kinda feel that a 'nested' breakdown of the archetypes makes more sense for me than a sliding scale. Looking back at when I was playing 40k most regularly (at least 1 game per week, often more), which was 4th/5th edition. But what I enjoyed most about that experience was being being able to take a concept I liked (mechanised dudes with armour support, which 100% a playstyle those editions favoured) and play it well, to the point I could take my 'standard' list and compete with all but the most heavily optimised tournament lists (which I 100% achieved, and it felt really nice). Which feels (according to these psychographics) like I was a Timmy (because 'tanks and dues riding in tanks are cool'), but I still wanted to win and optimise my army within that constraint. So it's like I was trying to Spike within the 'limitations' of my personal Timmy. hope that made sense...
I'd argue 8th and early 9th Ed Harlequins had a bit of Johnny in them as well just based on how many options there were for characters with things like pivotal roles completely changing what a given char should be used for. Still ultimately a largely Spike army though.
You know, I went into this episode (yes it's old I just go through random older episodes when they strike my fancy) expecting you guys to get the psychographics all wrong, because Magic players get them wrong _constantly._ Like they have such clear and understandable niches but people just devolve and devolve them into absolute parodies of themselves. But you guys really got it down and for the most part, I made an effort to try to estimate what psychographic I think each army fell into and I matched up pretty close with you guys. One thing that I think might help determine a Spike army is that Spike really likes resource management, so any of those armies that have a reserve of points or dice that they can use to manipulate the game and massage RNG are pure Spike fuel. Spike loves getting to manage resources efficiently. The one part that really threw me off is I fully expected Space Marines to be the dead middle (Timmy likes the big armor men, Johnny likes the sheer breadth of units and auras to mix and match, Spike likes that they're GW's golden boys and thus are guaranteed first crack at all the new mechanics and gameplay modes, and when Space Marines are bad they're rarely bad for long because Marines being bad is literally bad for business). Then I thought, "oh Space Marines aren't the middle because they're making sure they make a choice, they're not gonna give any to the middle of the chart", and then you put like three armies all in the middle, lmao. But I do feel like the ones you put in the middle were solid choices. Just an overall solid episode!
I had my Johnny moment with my Int. Chaplain with as much leadership debuffs as possible. Built in +1 to combat attrition, emperors judgement Relic to block rerolls (with what was then permanently transhuman inner circle) and take morale at "disadvantage", then fear incarnate warlord trait for -1 leadership and another -1 to combat attrition. This guy was reliably making Necrons run away and claimed a ton of cp in insane bravery. He could also take a punch to the face real hard and if you pay for the extra DA Trait stubborn tenacity he'll be sticking around until morale no matter what you do. My favourite character to field in local clubs. "Can I deliver him vs whatever I come across"
I would have considered sisters a Johnny army because of how much fun the hero building and the buffs are but I see your point on the spike aspect. but that may be bias as a big Johnny, I love making heroes more than playing the game. Herohammer is my favourite part of the hobby. I have never run a list not capped on Hqs(at least in the main detachment)/Leaders in 40k/Aos
As a long time magic player trying to get started in Warhammer, this was very helpful. I am *extremely* johnny, with a fair bit of timmy in there. Don't care about winning, I like to do interesting shit, I like when things are unexpected and I like to be far off meta. This put Thousand Sons onto my radar. (Drukhari, Votann and Sisters are my main considerations. Waiting on 10th reveals)
I know you guys don't like SM, and you prefer to just rush past them, but Imperial Fists have a win rate of 30% in 9th, whereas Dark Angels and Iron Fists are close to 60%, so there's clearly a lot of granularity and difference between the chapters that requires a bit more attention.
I was thinking about this idly the other day and yeah I think I might end up with an affinity towards Guard because I love the biggest hugest guns with massive aoes. Bonus points for arcing fire. Death from above with artillery bombardment is the power fantasy that really clicks with me. The basilisk is the iconic artillery piece of the setting
I’m a hard core Johnny with spike leanings but I’m all in on necrons. I really think they have a ton of builds and wierd interactions. Tons of combos under the hood, just warriors and their reanimations are like a separate play style. Otherwise you all are spot on 😊
This was a fun discussion. I'm definitely a Johnny. Other aspects creep in, but I'm firmly in the 'just as planned', blue deck gang. No surprise that most of the factions I play were put there, though I was kind of surprised by Tau. While Timmy definitely draws the 'big robits' fans, what makes the army actually tick is somewhere between Johnny and Spike. Aesthetically, I like the big robots, but what I really love about current Tau is all the tricks in their toolkit. The exemplar of this in my list is the Coldstar Commander. You can kit him so many ways and slot him into so many gameplans, it's terrific. My favorite? Tau Sept Brrtzerker with the Vectored Engine relic. He's so fast. He's so slippery. Need someone to teleport to pressure backfield objectives? He can do it. Need someone to zone control against deepstriking melee units? The look on that World Eaters face when you push him out 9", then run away to deny him the charge distance is glorious. Combos and counters for days with Tau.
Yeah the thing about Tau is that they're inspired by Gundam but they don't have "THE Gundam," which is the Timmiest thing about Gundam. Knights are much more the Timmy side of mecha. The "oh ho, aren't I clever using my 50 gimmicks and unit combos to get around not having anything really useful in melee" thing is extremely Johnny.
I'd argue that the aesthetic profiles (Mel and Vorthos) are even more important in 40K than they are in Magic. Or at least Vorthos is. The fantasy/lore of each army is a big part of them, and the dedication it takes to assemble and paint them all pushes you to get at least a little invested in that sort of thing.
We had probably a 30 minute debate about just skipping and doing Melvin/Vorthos or Vorthos deep dive first. It's guaranteed we'll cover it.
@@thepoorhammerpodcast I would love to see that video. Just finding out these concepts have really opened my eyes to what kind of gamer I am.
@@thepoorhammerpodcast didn’t even know those two profiles existed, and boy they are necessary when discussing 40K. Vorthos is like, a good chunk of the entire community as painting and reading lore is the primary way for a lot of people to enjoy 40K, myself included.
Melvin (Mike when I learned it) seems really good too. The gameplay = story aspect. This character does this because of story and it translates well in game.
@@thepoorhammerpodcast Ah, Was going to mention that Mark actually added a "new" article (and by new I mean 2015...). Yeah, Would have been cool to see how you feel the Factions would fit into them.
The difference between a Johnny and spike T'au player is "of course I have a stormsurge" versus "why would I need a stormsurge?"
This is me wanting a baneblade for guard or wanting a Fellblade or smthm
And Timmy says "Hey guys, look at my Manta! " 😂
@@shanecrowe8517 Yup!
Ta'unar Supremacy.
"Taunar? Yeah, I brought two."
Vs.
"Taunar? I don't know what it does, it's too many points."
Me at the start of this episode: "Man, I bet I'm mostly Johnny with a fair amount of Timmy mixed in."
Brad and Erik describing any army I play: "This is the most Timmy shit I've ever seen."
Another thing about these personalities is that while everyone has all 3 of these, I think that oftentimes two will inform the one.
Example, I have a stronger Johnny than Timmy or Spike, but how I choose to self express, or the catalyst for an idea, can be informed by Timmy or Spike. Like, "this army/list is very strong, but I want to win MY way," or "Man this model is freaking cool, I wonder how I can make it work effectively?"
Looking back I saw this happen to myself in 8th edition. "Riptides are really cool. It's meta to take 3, you say?"
Those are exactly my thoughts. I would think, I am like 50% Johnny, 40% Spike and 10% Timmy.
This varies depending on context and the three interact with each other. ("Is it really strong enough?" - "Does this work how I want it to work?" - "But this model....")
Johny - plays against themselves (opponents are just timers)
Spike - plays against the ladder (opponents are just fodder)
Timmy- TIMMY!!!
Timmy- plays against boredom (opponents are their allies)
@@jamestarbet9608the EXACT comment I was about to leave!
Editor hitting another freaking home run with that Timmy Johnny Spike fire triangle.
I think there is an aspect to the armies that has gone partially ignored here - the dice. There was some talk of how Spike wants to minimize randomness/dice chance, but my Timmy brain jumps with glee when picking up giant handfuls of dice, doesn't matter how they roll or if they are even useful - flinging two handfuls of cubes like birdshot is just plain fun.
(Vorthos moment) The moment I realized I wanted to build Knights was when I was flipping thru the codex and each sample Knight had actual written backstory, and my brain reflexively made the backstory for my first knight. It's like making a D&D character, you shouldn't be allowed to field a Knight if they don't have a name and backstory. -edit:Vorthos not Johny.
Also I just realized Johnny has Stifle on his shirt, and it's the perfect card. Timmy wouldn't run interaction, Spike runs goodstuff like Counterspell, Bolt, etc. Only Johny would run Stifle to counter one ability. But Stifle is also his worst fear, it ruins his perfect intricate combo.
More like a Vorthos moment, as you’re doing it for story. Unless you like how the units play exactly how you’d imagine irl, then Melvin. Whereas Johnny looks at how to combo abilities to do something crazy even if it doesn’t win them the game, so long as they did the complicated stupid move.
I think SoBs definitely have SOME Timmy to them; the exorcist battle tank with a pipe organ firing missiles is a little tough to overlook lol
I completely agree, from an aesthetic point of view it's quite Timmy (or it just procs my Timmy lol). It's a very over the top army with the pipe organ missiles, small ladies with guns as big as them, nun mechs etc... I do have to agree with them though that gameplay wise they're more spike/johny
The esthetic us very Timmy but if you meet SOB play (hi, its me) you'll find that they wont use the tanks. Maybe a rhino for some Flamer Redistributors most but mostly no tanks (shame tho. Hoping the Tank changes in 10th will make them a viable choice
I think everything in 40K has at least a little Timmy.
The universe is so over the top and dumb in a good way and The minis are so in your face about their aesthetic, that you just have to be a Timmy to play 40k.
@@MarcyRatwoman I'll never give up my immolator suicide bombs, never.
40K is built, first and foremost, on Rule of Cool. There's a certain baseline of Spectacle that runs through every army, that Timmy can attach to. If committed enough to a particular brand of Cool, Timmy will tolerate anything. That said, some armies facilitate Timmy's fun better than others. Some, like Knights or Orks, are _made_ for Timmy.
Seeing admech in Spike was a shock to me but the explanation made a lot of sense. I see myself as a Timmy-Johnny-Spike (in that order) and just love the look and flavor of admech and the jankyness of how they play. Its like standing in the control room of chernobyl and just marveling at all the cool buttons and knobs and indicators. I never would have considered how that would usually appeal more to spikes. Fascinating stuff!
Same here but I'm thinking of adding imperial knights for the timmy side of me to go ham
I'm the exact same way. It's part of why I'm REALLY considering getting that new Seraphon box set or a Knight box set when it gets released again
I think they were off the mark by labelling Ad Mech - and especially GSC - as mainly Spike-type factions. I see them as leaning more heavily towards Johnny for much of the same reasons as Thousand Sons.
I really like your control room metaphor! Johnny *wants* to be in that control room with a million buttons. Even if there's an easier, or better, path to victory. Spike *tolerates* it - IF it's the best path to victory. Or if he sees that he can just ignore 90% of the buttons and focus on the "important" ones. Timmy *dislikes* being in that room. He will want to leave, even if staying is the best path to victory. He wants fewer - but bigger - buttons
Very curious what the new edition will bring for us admech players on the reducing complexity front
@@ElOvnen I like your take on it! It really scratches the Johnny itch
I see a new Poorhammer Podcast, I click Like immediately. Now to watch it while I work. You guys rock!
Absolutly Same :D
Nothing better than a perfectly listenable podcast about my favorite hobbies(all while on company time). Same
those guys are srsly underrated
Currently doing the same while organizing inventory :D perfect work podcast
@@LOOPS188 dude me too! We must be long lost twins!😅😅😅
Timmy is the kind of guy, who loves playing "high risk" strategies. It doesn't matter that it didn't work out the past 19 times, because the ONE TIME it does work out, it's going to be absolutely amazing and he'll speak about it for days. Hell, everyone in the LGS speaks about it for days. To Timmy, Warhammer is a "playground", in which they want to have fun.
Johnnys come in all different shapes and sizes. Some want to show off their cool kitbashes, some want to tell you about the lore of their custom hero, some want to show you this cool synergy they found. But at its very core, the Johnny wants to say "Look at cool thing I did". To Johnny, Warhammer is a stage, in which they present themselves.
Spikes generally care about "proving something". Usually it's winning, but sometimes it's also making a bad thing work. To a Spike, there is a challenge, and they want to show you that they can overcome it. To them, Warhammer is a skill test, in which they have to prove that they have the skills.
---
I would argue that Johnny can find some joy in Orks, especially kitbashing. Johnny is the kind of guy, who has a one-of-a-kind model for everything in his army. His Gorkanaut has been kitbashed from two jets and looks like a transformer. His Warboss uses a 3D printed space marine armor, painted like ultramarines, and then "hastily" painting black and white over to show his Warboss is a true Goff git. All of these are about self expression too.
"Spike...finds a way" sounds like a perfect description of Tyrannids thematically.
I am a magic player trying out 40k. Since you guys are the same way, I find your explanations of things easy to understand. Keep up the great podcasts
Man you hit the nail on the head for Tau, got into them purely for lore and aesthetics for my first army. First couple of games with friends and I am shooting all their stuff off of the board and doing nothing else. Felt terrible. So I got GK for my second army and being able to customize my list for the game to be more interactive is amazing. Plus the fact that i play in more than one phase with GK hahaha
Alpha legion, Timmy and Spike argue so much that Johnny takes over.
That amount of shenanigans means that the design is working as intended. If you're not confused then you're not looking at alpha legion. I love it.
There's no way to Johnny a Necron army you say, pleading with me as I deploy 29 Canoptek Scarabs and a single pyschomancer to our 500 point game.
Perfect placement for T’au. Came for the Battlesuits, still here for the Battlesuits, but I’ve been forced into a Spike playstyle to avoid getting tabled too quickly
If I’m playing with someone newer to the hobby or someone I’ve built a rapport with, I skew towards a less competitive battlesuit bash list. But for every other match it feels like I have to constantly be playing 3D chess to have a fighting chance and I know how frustrating that can be to play against
Yeah I have a friend who just has the leviathan box tyranids, and I have been trying to run stuff that is fun for them but most of my stuff is xv8 and hammerhead tanks. Most everything I have is brutal to play against for that box.
Classic Spike. Doesn't even just destroy you. Finds the most financially responsible and convenient way to destroy you.
We like warp spiders because we like warp spiders, not because their minis haven’t been updated. This can also apply to a lot of other aspect warriors :(
Sorry to hear about your drama B-Rad. Thank you for helping us all get our fix though (I've had the shakes all week waiting for this...)
It is always fascinating/strange to me how people get so competitive in games that are not designed primarily with competition in mind.
competitiveness is a personality trait
I'm almost completely a Timmy, I know that I can't play enough to "get good" so I instead play to have fun instead as it feels less bad about a butt kicking, though I'm older and I think as you get older you try to maximize fun with the little free time you have.
When y'all were describing Johnny I looked over to my Baneblade and smiled, not two seconds later I hear "I had to play... Only tanks."
Timmy picks my factions.
Johnny and Spike build the lists.
There's one more psychographic that never seemed to have gotten as much traction as the remaining three - Vorthos (I guess the weird name does play a part in its unpopularity). These are the players who are in the game mostly for the lore, story and self-expression via those things, in Warhammer that would likely also include the hobby part, in particular kitbashing and inventing our own paintjobs. When I was buying into the Guard, it was less for the big tanks and more because I wanted to create My Guys I could identify with and because all the regimental organisation to invent and all the characters to name.
My girlfriend is a Vorthos/Johnny and she likes T'au, mostly for the lore.
I think it would be cool to discuss how a Timmy, Johnny, and a Spike view balance and what they see as balanced. Because you can definitely see what a Spike wants in balance but not so much the other two.
I think thats almost the point, Timmy doesn’t really care if some stuff is a bit weaker or stronger than others, he just likes the big moments. Johnny on the other hand almost likes having a disparity in some factions to prove that bad things can be good.
@@ultrimarines9198 I can definitely see that but I would be interested what the limits are exactly. Like a Timmy wouldn't want extremely weak factions and extremely strong factions because that would ruin the variety. Similar to Johnny. I think there is a lot to dig in there even if it wouldn't be a long video.
One thing I think Timmy likes is the ability to get to the fight. Timmy is here for spectacle. He's here to Do The Thing. If his units get shot off the board before it's possible to do anything, that's no fun for Timmy. Win or lose, Timmy wants the fight to happen. It's why Timmy gravitates towards sturdy armies, like Death Guard or Custodes or Knights. Fragile armies that require lots of maneuvering to get into position without being destroyed are less appealing, as it "gets in the way" of doing what Timmy wants. Whereas Johnny sees positioning as a challenge, and Spike will do anything if it lets them win consistently.
I think a Timmy balanced game would mean that every faction could do a big flashy thing or had fun rules. Likely rules that skew away from simple numerical changes and more towards things that change the board state. Best "Timmy Balanced" factions are probably Orks and 10th Daemons.
A Johnny balanced game is simpler to put to paper but more demanding to create: each faction needs to a) have unique mechanics through which players can express themselves, and b) have some unique tech or depth deeper within the faction through which players can express themselves and / or their mastery.
@@MasterFustache that does sound like how those types would balance the game. Timmy is just all flash while Johnny is all expression.
I imagine a Spike would just want a game that is minmax to hell.
Tau feels like it wants to be in between Johnny an timmy sadly it lacks the support for it. Full battlesuit lists are hard because stealth teams can't replace troops or a lot of players want to run auxiliary lists but tau has only 2 alien races. one example of johnny that we got is a crisis suit death blob. i just wish we had more support for the other playstyles. I do agree that tau has a spike element to it that it doesn't want. Great podcast!
Johnny is the strongest for me, and what pushed me towards GSC. I had my custom lore for my cult, and all their kitbashes and weird combos figured out before I painted my girst neophyte.
As an afterthought, coming from D&D, Johnny very much reminds me of my old grappler and grapple mage builds I used to theorycraft - do something dumb and suboptimal to a level it's actually effective.
"Inside of you, there are 3 wolves..."
Im not usually this fast to a video but Im glad to be here! Love all of your content!
Fantastic analysis! One thing i do like to add to Timmy, Johnny, Spike discussions is that all of them are important to the health of your game
Timmy: This will be the majority of your playerbase. They are also usually the best at getting people into your game as they're often better able to show folks your game at its most approachable
Johnny: They are your tinkerers/mad scientist. They find that one unit with a unique effect and try to build a list around it. They best show off the insane nonsense you can pull in a game.
Spike: They're the ones that know the game inside and out. Spikes show off the mechanical and strategic depth of your game.
As someone who strongly identifies as a Timmy, I'm glad to see that you rated Orks so clearly in my corner of the triangle. ...but let's be honest, i wouldn't stop loving them even if you had put them anywhere else. WAAAAAAAAAGH!
Eric's hows it going? is the only constant in my life right now.
Sounds good
The three player types are essentially: Experience --- Expressive --- Mastery
I ended up going for Genestealers but more for johnny reasons than spike reasons.
@RagDollRatnew player here, and I grabbed GSC units because I read books and played some games, and have always been a fan of the Nids and GSC, so got into the game when the Leviathan box dropped and got a combat patrol of GSC because I wanted to make a cult based on the Hive Fleet I am making
I agree, cause I'm a very big Johnny, and that pushed me into GSC.
I feel like a Timmy-Spike combo is especially toxic if they aren't self-aware.
EDIT: After watching up to the Custodes part, I realized that I am a Timmy-Spike lmao
im currently working on that, too. i feel so shitty about getting all caught up in my frustrations and wanting to win; it needs to be fun for everyone, not just me
That's interesting! I think there's very little overlap in (possible) positive or negative traits between Timmy and Spike. Which can be a good thing, if the positives cancel out the negatives. But can also make it pretty miserable to play against someone that has the negative traits of both.
Timmy is probably the most likely to pout when you kill his units. Because then he doesn't get to do the exciting thing! Spike doesn't care if all their units are killed, if that helps them win the game. But Spike probably has the highest risk of being a sore loser.
A "bad" Timmy-Spike wants their units to kill all of your units, but will get mad when their own units are killed. And then be a sore loser afterwards.
But a "good" Timmy-Spike celebrates when exciting stuff happens for either player. And can enjoy the act of *playing* to win whether or not they actually win.
Maybe I'm a "good" Timmy-Spike? I don't play meta lists because I buy models based on aesthetic, but I memorize rules, measure sight lines carefully, MathHammer religiously to figure out which of my units should go into their units, and enjoy winning on points. But at one and the same time, I play Evil Sunz Orks, everything I have goes FASTA and my favorite part of the game is yelling WAAAAAGH! Having fun with my opponent is way more important than winning, but I'll still read all my opponents rules and data sheets before the game and come up with detailed game plans.
@@scotwilcox1771 I think it's a misconception that Timmy is the only one who play to have fun. All the archetypes play to have fun - they just have different definitions of what "fun" means.
A "bad" Johnny/Timmy/Spike is someone who thinks only their own idea of fun is valid, someone who only cares about *their own* enjoyment of the game, and/or acts poorly when what they consider fun doesn't happen.
A "bad" Timmy-Spike isn't someone who plays metalists or strong factions. There's absolutely nothing wrong with any of that! A "bad" Timmy-Spike is someone who gets annoyed if Johnny is focused on his complicated combo rather than joining in a "WAAAGH" yell at that moment. That's not having fun. That's insisting on having fun in a way that makes Johnny have less fun.
For perspective, I'm somewhat of an anti-Timmy. I love the social aspect of the game, friendly banter and having a laugh while playing. But I mostly find Timmy's idea of having fun in a game very unappealing. And I tend to have the least fun when playing against Timmys. I have fun by *competing* , trying to play my absolute best, and thinking of clever solutions to in-game problems.
Wow you guys summed up Tau perfectly and made me realize why I sold my army. I'm like 70% Timmy and that faction was miserable to play. I tried making some weird combos and refused to play certain units, and it just got me continually curb stomped. You're forced to Spike so hard despite their being an illusion of Johnny and Timmy.
I tried a few factions before falling for the sisters, it's the beauty of the models and the joy of painting them that drives us. I'm predominantly a Johnny but I'm convinced asthetics drives sisters players. I love my big dumb Space Wolves but, assembling and painting Sisters just hits different.
My Johnny tries to make Timmy things work in a Spike world. I find analyzing how the three profiles serve each other in your goals as a player is the best way to make use of the system.
I'm the player who paints armies and watches poorhammer but can't drive 3 miles to my LGS to play
I think I lean most heavily Johnny. I got into Orks because I like their junkyard vehicles and I just really like making different combinations of those that synergize in interesting ways
I have to congratulate you guys on being the only podcast that's been entertaining for me. The great editing and fun topics always keep me coming back for more.
I am a Timmy dominant, i run Necrons and i love my Doomstalker i named Dot. Usually dies by turn 2 but i love the model so damn much.
The thing about broken combos and interactions that 'weren't meant to be discovered.' implies that GW even knew those interactions were there. Their testing sessions are much more limited than they would need to be for all the interactions and combos to come up at least once during the test games. You can see so many examples in the past where GW didn't think that anyone would take a certain option, just for that specific option to wind up breaking the game. I think they should swallow the inevitability of leaks and go for a beta-testing scheme using actual players, where there is a period of time where we get the basics of the new edition to play test ourselves and report back to GW with issues and suggestions. If it's done right the statistics of an exercise like that should clearly show what needs fixing. I'm sure it would be a logistical nightmare, but the end product would be much better off, and maybe there'd be less perceived need for a new edition every few years.
This is stupid and I'm here to watch every second of it and comment and drop a like
Posting this before I watch it, I hope there is the player who builds a list that’s funny/ fun and/or HORDES for numbers of models
Update, mix of Johnny and Timmy…
I hope there's something in there describing me and my jank all Phobos army.
@@loganbrown2959 they also forgot Vorthos, who is the lore-player.
The funniest thing is I am extremely Timmy with a bit of Jonny, but I'm currently starting a list of Drukhari, who you call a Spike army", for the undeniably Timmy reason of "flying pirates??" Even more amusingly, your podcast a couple weeks ago on Each Faction Tries to Sell You a New Knight you said the Tantalus didn't have Timmy factor, it was the first time I saw the model and I immediately said GIANT FLYING PIRATE SHIP? I NEED THAT. And now im making a new army. 😅
Drukhari are fundamentally Johnny with the emphasis on listbuilding, piece-trading, and in-game decision making (you are one of armies with most options in terms of gameplay). The Timmy vs Spike comes in when you decide to which purpose you harness that Johnny energy.
Coming from kill team, I actually started collecting GSC because in that game they're a very Timmy army - its one of the few teams that lets you take characters, and how could I say no to a three-armed cowboy?
I also came from KT to 40k with GSC, but it's Johnny reasons for me. I love their weird interactions, and for me they hands down has the best lore.
I also love customizing/kitbashing models to work with the backstory you came up with for them, which I think GSC is probably the best suited for. (Next to maybe orks)
This channel is going to be the next biggest thing in the 40k community! I've seen almost all of your videos at this point.
I love seeing the crossover as someone who plays Magic and previously played 40k, and am now looking at getting back into 40k with 10th ed.
Miku themed Necrons? Cawdor Imperial Guard? I'm definitely a Timmy, 100%
Literally the only warhammer podcast I can listen to these days. Love you guys
As more of a johnny style player generally, I am not scared to admitt hat Custodes bring out my inner timmy and GSC brings out my inner spike. I play super casually so I can get away with really dumb lists a lot, so I might not be the best point of comparison.
This was a really interesting video. I’d love to see a psychographics video of all of the SM chapters (loyal and traitor). Keep up the great work lads! The Emperor protects!
I really appreciate your content. It is very different from every other Warhammer TH-camr I watch and I find that refreshing. I also hope they add more complexity to Necrons. I started back up in 9th and they seem very basic compared to some of the army's I have played against.
am i the only one who thinks the MtG artwork for Spike looks much more like a Johnny and vice versa?
I was drawn in to the hobby through the Timmy in me. First army list was Alpha Legion with an allied Chaos Knight. That knight Desecrator alone dragged me in to the hobby. Now I’m a bit more Vorthos dominant with my army building. Rare to no chaos taint with my boys in blue, but there are some.
No ultramarines ever turned traitor 🤦♂️
@@MaxZRider Suuuuuuuuuuuure
@@Grimpo96 🤦♂🤦♂🤦♂ cite a source then
@@MaxZRider Oh, you’re not joking. First off, “boys in blue” refers to Alpha Legion. Second, Huron Blackheart is an Ultramarine.
Loved the video, I am fortunate because my "Johnny" persona usually is dominate from game to game. In magic I am definitely more of a Johnny/Spike but Warhammer, I see all three there, but I am definitely more of a Johnny/Timmy player! I love big plays, but I love expressing myself and my tactics through the game.
Great job again!
I'm always caught between the rule of cool and mathhammer. Ideally I want to do awesome things while stopping you doing anything at all.
I am a Johnny pretty much to a T… after hearing it explained, I love making a plan (especially with something considered less than optimal) and surprising people with it and watching my plan unfold! The exception apparently is Dwarves… I will usually Timmy super hard for dwarves as I don’t usually care I just want short guys with beards haha.
I'd probably argue after listening to this that there's defo more archetypes than simple Timmy, Johnny and Spike - mainly I think between Timmy and Johnny you've got players who cater their armies to narrative or lore-based stuff - they're not so concerned with rule interactions etc as they're making an army that more fits a narrative or style, but they're not really Timmy because they're not just picking the biggest, coolest things because they're constraining themselves to the external source of the lore surrounding that faction. I'd say a lot of Horus Heresy players fit into this archetype, as well as stuff like 40k players who play stuff like Marine chapters that aren't necessarily competitive but they want to represent their lore on the tabletop.
Additionally I'd also argue that there's at least 2 kinds of Spike - so you've got the Spike who represents competitive players who want a challenge, and that's your Genestealer Cults or AdMech players, who want to win games but find their enjoyment in the challenge of developing new or complex tactics, or original list building. A lot of the faction-specific channels on here like say Blood Angels Commander fall into this list, as they're happy to play a faction they like even if at times they're the underdog, but enjoy finding ways they can win against the odds. They're good sports, but they're still there to win.
Then there's the other type of Spike player - who doesn't care about the complexity of the game or developing new tactics and simply wants to win at all costs. They mainly care about the meta right now, they're happy to jump between armies to whatever meta is overpowered right now rather than adjust their tactics for a chosen faction. They're the easiest to name; they're a Dave. Because That Guy is nearly always called Dave (sorry Daves). A true Spike is the kind of person who comes up with the Speedwaagh because they wanted to see what would happen. Once it becomes apparent it's ridiculously overpowered they move on and try to do something more challenging.
A Dave is the kind of guy who hears about it then immediately buys 9 trucks on ebay. Then cries when a month later GW say he can only have 3.
replace "bad" with "sub-optimal" choice...
it will allow the audience to focus on mechanics which you are referencing and not the good/evil lore aspect some might conflate with the terms.
fantastic video. keep up the work.
never knew these terms, but I’m very much a Johnny (I play CSM, Drukhari and Craftworlds, also I was genuinely about to do the Slaanesh seeker thing)
I would argue "All the Dakka!" Is very much a johnny/Timmy moment.
I would say Sisters are the perfect Johnny army, because you can remove random factor, and this means you can do even crazier combos than you would normally do. They have that dash of Spikiness, just to make it that more rewarding.
Love the World Eaters the armor the style is so freaking awesome!
29:14 "Spike finds a way" idk why but this had my dying 🤣Great vid as always!
You were pretty spot in with Guard. I chose them as my first army because I loved the lore of just regular humans winning through blistering firepower and tungsten balls. I'm not very competitive (though I guess the tiny bit of Spike I have enjoys that they're pretty good right now) but mostly I'm interested in how can I make this list synergize and what's the coolest aesthetic I can give my units. Hell I'm probably gonna homebrew a regiment just so I can give my Cadians gas masks and urban camo
It hasn’t been said but deserves a statement, spikes are favored by Johnny and Timmy in horde mode games as spike will build their army to exploit the fact there are 1-3 other ally armies on the field they can theory craft weird soup shenanigans like things that would happen if somehow tau, vottan, aeldari are being attacked by tyrannids. Like suddenly Timmy’s stupid army survives longer and start whipping units because spike buffed them with psykers or something.
Thanks for saving my day by uploading this episode. Edit: holy shit, I'm Johnny. I rarely win anything but casual games with my assault terminator Carcharodon spam...but goddamn it's fucking cool, and very much satisfies my desire for cool
I agree with the majority of what you guys are saying, but I personally like to think Eldar(Craftworld) have a little more Spike in them than mentioned. Eldar reward you a lot in knowing how to postion them due to their squishiness like SoB, we just have a better movement profile that does make the job easier. We also now have Strands of Fate, which helps limit variance a small amount (not enough for a Spike but something that they would appreciate), where knowing where and when to pick can make a big impact. Although this is coming from someone who started in 9th and is primarily a Johnny (why I like the Eldar and UM), so what I see could be skewed by that. I will say again I don't think that the Eldar are primarily Spike-y just that there is enough of it in them to warrant mentioning.
Exactly
As someone who is looking to get a Porphyrion because they're as tall as a titan, I fully agree with the Timmy aspect about knights. There is just something fun about plopping down 7 colossal models on the table and firing off massive guns from each knight
My list building definitely is mixture of all three. I pick something I love, a model or theme or a strategy, whatever, and I build the most optimal list to make it work to the absolute best. I definitely am competitive and I always want to improve and challenge myself, and of course, win. But I'm not a bad sportsman.
I was happy I found a Johnny playstyle for Votann with custom subfactions: +1S to beam weapons, making the thunderkyn conversion beamer S7 -> 8 and bonus to charge towards judgement tokens allowing a good chance to charge from deep strike. I'm sad I haven't been able to build my army up to play anything higher than 500p games to experience these mechanics meaningfully before the 10th rules reset.
As a Johnny with heavy Timmy influence, I hate Spikes with a burning passion.
Final Destination with no items and both players must be Fox and it must be Melee.
Halo 3 but only the BR and no weapon spawns on the map and only on Guardian.
I hate these people who make the game as unfun for others as possible because it lets them win more. They’re the same people who think that the game they play (any game) being unbalanced is a good thing because it lets them stomp newbs, even if the unbalanced nature kills the game’s competitive scene in the long term (cough halo cough) because nothing but mirror matches is BORING.
Can you guess what army i got?
In my case, Normaly Timmy or Spike get excited about a list (because is fun, silly, or good) then Jhonny comes in to make the list cohesive and thematic.
And spike comes last to swap some stuff because we're going against chaff units, We Need More Shots!!
.
Tyranids of course
I like that it's said that everyone has parts of all three.
Still, there's no way I'm bringing a Sprocyst and a bunch of Hormagaunts and not leaning into that Johnny aspect.
I try to win obviously, but I'd feel dirty playing Crusher Stampede (ever) or Leviathan with Warrior spam.
A win doesn't mean anything if I have to use something that is clearly broken in order to achieve it.
I've been a Timmy-Jimmy player for a long time after starting as a Spike, and holy crap all of my armies dropped into the Timmy corner with the exception of my new army CSM, which I picked for the exact reasons you guys talked about and that I definitely snagged to appease my Jimmy. Granted...Timmy seems to be the most common army type but still.
After the introduction and reading the articel I see myself as mostly a Timmy and Johnny. Not surprised that I landed on Imperial Guard as my army of choice after watching the video XD
As a Timmy i started with Sisters because i loved the look Im not sure how well ill play it. But i just started building my knight army lol.
I think I'm a natural Spike, but I had to learn to embrace Timmy as I don't have the patience to actually learn how to win the game 😅
Orks help me to process this strange psychological landscape. Orks give Timmy a _lot_ of _big stupid things_ to _do_ and see what happens 😁
And you never really lose, coz yoo can alwayz come back an' 'ave anuvva go!
Tau has Johnny in it for things like Farsight Enclaves and Dal'yth Sept where they can focus on playing a specific way like auxiliaries
I feel like on element of Spike was largely overlooked. The mastery aspect. Spike likes to demonstrate their mastery of the game systems. So things like finesse and heavily positional armies would appeal to Spike
I used to play purely hyper competitive modern and then legacy, I recommend that every spike out there find another part of the hobby they love. Magic burnt me out, because I couldn’t put in the time to get any better, so I don’t play much magic anymore. I went to warhammer where I read one book about the guard fell in love and built the guard army my heart told me to instead of the meta. Some day I’m sure I’ll build a super comp stomp tau list or something someday when they are broken. If it’s a hobby and not a job, Find the hobby you love and then engage your competitive side because when a hobby is purely competitive it’s becomes a chore in my experience.
Hmm, very interesting video. I do kinda feel that a 'nested' breakdown of the archetypes makes more sense for me than a sliding scale. Looking back at when I was playing 40k most regularly (at least 1 game per week, often more), which was 4th/5th edition. But what I enjoyed most about that experience was being being able to take a concept I liked (mechanised dudes with armour support, which 100% a playstyle those editions favoured) and play it well, to the point I could take my 'standard' list and compete with all but the most heavily optimised tournament lists (which I 100% achieved, and it felt really nice). Which feels (according to these psychographics) like I was a Timmy (because 'tanks and dues riding in tanks are cool'), but I still wanted to win and optimise my army within that constraint. So it's like I was trying to Spike within the 'limitations' of my personal Timmy. hope that made sense...
I'd argue 8th and early 9th Ed Harlequins had a bit of Johnny in them as well just based on how many options there were for characters with things like pivotal roles completely changing what a given char should be used for. Still ultimately a largely Spike army though.
You know, I went into this episode (yes it's old I just go through random older episodes when they strike my fancy) expecting you guys to get the psychographics all wrong, because Magic players get them wrong _constantly._ Like they have such clear and understandable niches but people just devolve and devolve them into absolute parodies of themselves. But you guys really got it down and for the most part, I made an effort to try to estimate what psychographic I think each army fell into and I matched up pretty close with you guys. One thing that I think might help determine a Spike army is that Spike really likes resource management, so any of those armies that have a reserve of points or dice that they can use to manipulate the game and massage RNG are pure Spike fuel. Spike loves getting to manage resources efficiently.
The one part that really threw me off is I fully expected Space Marines to be the dead middle (Timmy likes the big armor men, Johnny likes the sheer breadth of units and auras to mix and match, Spike likes that they're GW's golden boys and thus are guaranteed first crack at all the new mechanics and gameplay modes, and when Space Marines are bad they're rarely bad for long because Marines being bad is literally bad for business). Then I thought, "oh Space Marines aren't the middle because they're making sure they make a choice, they're not gonna give any to the middle of the chart", and then you put like three armies all in the middle, lmao. But I do feel like the ones you put in the middle were solid choices. Just an overall solid episode!
I had my Johnny moment with my Int. Chaplain with as much leadership debuffs as possible.
Built in +1 to combat attrition, emperors judgement Relic to block rerolls (with what was then permanently transhuman inner circle) and take morale at "disadvantage", then fear incarnate warlord trait for -1 leadership and another -1 to combat attrition.
This guy was reliably making Necrons run away and claimed a ton of cp in insane bravery. He could also take a punch to the face real hard and if you pay for the extra DA Trait stubborn tenacity he'll be sticking around until morale no matter what you do.
My favourite character to field in local clubs. "Can I deliver him vs whatever I come across"
I was thinking days to which army to get but this video helped ! So now I need to decide between Grey Knights and Thousand Sons :)
Day 2 of asking for a “what would we put in a boarding patrol box” for each faction video.
I would have considered sisters a Johnny army because of how much fun the hero building and the buffs are but I see your point on the spike aspect. but that may be bias as a big Johnny, I love making heroes more than playing the game. Herohammer is my favourite part of the hobby. I have never run a list not capped on Hqs(at least in the main detachment)/Leaders in 40k/Aos
As a long time magic player trying to get started in Warhammer, this was very helpful. I am *extremely* johnny, with a fair bit of timmy in there. Don't care about winning, I like to do interesting shit, I like when things are unexpected and I like to be far off meta. This put Thousand Sons onto my radar. (Drukhari, Votann and Sisters are my main considerations. Waiting on 10th reveals)
I know you guys don't like SM, and you prefer to just rush past them, but Imperial Fists have a win rate of 30% in 9th, whereas Dark Angels and Iron Fists are close to 60%, so there's clearly a lot of granularity and difference between the chapters that requires a bit more attention.
As a Magic player crossing over into Warhammer I appreciate this video
I was thinking about this idly the other day and yeah I think I might end up with an affinity towards Guard because I love the biggest hugest guns with massive aoes. Bonus points for arcing fire. Death from above with artillery bombardment is the power fantasy that really clicks with me. The basilisk is the iconic artillery piece of the setting
You have no idea how happy I am to finally learn wtf Timmy, Johnny and Spike is. Yeah I could have looked it up but I didnt. So thanks
I’m a hard core Johnny with spike leanings but I’m all in on necrons. I really think they have a ton of builds and wierd interactions. Tons of combos under the hood, just warriors and their reanimations are like a separate play style. Otherwise you all are spot on 😊
This was a fun discussion. I'm definitely a Johnny. Other aspects creep in, but I'm firmly in the 'just as planned', blue deck gang. No surprise that most of the factions I play were put there, though I was kind of surprised by Tau. While Timmy definitely draws the 'big robits' fans, what makes the army actually tick is somewhere between Johnny and Spike. Aesthetically, I like the big robots, but what I really love about current Tau is all the tricks in their toolkit. The exemplar of this in my list is the Coldstar Commander. You can kit him so many ways and slot him into so many gameplans, it's terrific. My favorite? Tau Sept Brrtzerker with the Vectored Engine relic. He's so fast. He's so slippery. Need someone to teleport to pressure backfield objectives? He can do it. Need someone to zone control against deepstriking melee units? The look on that World Eaters face when you push him out 9", then run away to deny him the charge distance is glorious. Combos and counters for days with Tau.
Yeah the thing about Tau is that they're inspired by Gundam but they don't have "THE Gundam," which is the Timmiest thing about Gundam. Knights are much more the Timmy side of mecha. The "oh ho, aren't I clever using my 50 gimmicks and unit combos to get around not having anything really useful in melee" thing is extremely Johnny.
If your covering Maro's Psychographics can we also get a podcast on which factions fit best into Bartles Taxonomy?