@@lynmoore_ a school is just a building with kids in it. the bomb was still dropped on a bunch of kids/first responders- just not while they were in a building. it's about sinking to the same level as the capital and what that makes you in turn. but yeah for me it's never been the whole Gale vs. Peta etc it was always what Katniss would do for her family, particularly Prim and the evils of both sides with the lengths both Snow and Coin were completely willing to go to and what that makes of a society- replacing one dictator with the same system by a new name.
I will always believe that for Katniss it was never Gale. It was never Peeta. It was always Prim. Everything she does is for Prim. She's the reason she volunteers. She's the reason she tries to win. She's the reason Katniss does anything. She wants the best for the boys, she is upset when they boys are hurt, but everything is for Prim. Which is what makes Prim's death so devastating. I think the love triangle is for marketing and the real story was never about Gale vs. Peeta.
Yes! Honestly, it drives me insane that people focus so much on the love triangle when Katniss and Prism's relationship is clearly the main focus of the books. Not many fictional deaths fucked me up as much as Prim. The whole thing was about making sure she would get to live because she is the embodiment of innocence and hope.
@@jacobbraun1243 even if it wasn't marketed, at that time love triangles were everywhere: team Edward vs team Jake from twilight really made it into something the teens would pick up right away as a focal point of the story. Yes it is an important part of the story, but so are many other things that aren't even mentioned in these videos. But when you analyse the plot, what drives it is for sure Katniss and the relationship with her family, specially Prim.
100% agree that prim was katniss’s main focus throughout the series, but i wouldnt disregard the “love triangle” as unimportant since her romances with gale and peeta are still pretty significant to the story. they’re huge insights on how katniss feels throughout the story; gale’s relationship represents katniss’s resentment toward the capitol and her anger vs her development with peeta represents what she really wants in life: peace and kindness. you really see these feelings contrasted when she and gale clash during their visit to district 8, and then when she and peeta meet after she kills coin. obviously the question of “who is katniss gonna marry?!” was never the point but rather what mindset was she gonna choose in the end: revenge or peace?
You're right that Gale is not to blame for how his bomb was used against Prim... But I feel like you're not giving enough weight to Gale designing and advocating for the use of a bomb made to target first responders. The fact that it was rebel EMTs who got blown up instead of Capitol EMTs like Gale wanted doesn't change the morality of it, IMO.
@@theblindbandit85 Who cares where the medics are coming from ? You think the lives of medics from the Capitol are worth less than the lives of medics from 13 ?
He still knew it would be used on first responders (people like Prim and Katniss) he designed it to kill those kind of people. He is disliked for his blatant disregard for the lives of those he didn’t count as “his people”.
Gales moral downfall for me was always that he succumbed to the war mentality. he was willing to sacrifice innocents for the greater good which Peeta didn’t. Gale fell for the ‘us or them’ narrative while Peeta was more focused on shifting the perspective of it all, breaking the cycle. Gale was ready to ‘throw hands’ while Peeta asked ‘why do they want us to throw hands’. oh and how precisely Gale knew how to emotionally manipulate Katniss, while Peeta respected that she couldn’t reciprocate his feelings, Gale never did.
Gale is the violent approach to conflict resolution, Peeta is more concerned with diplomacy and healing. You might need both to win a war but for a relationship after that level of trauma, I'd like to think I'd choose healing too.
the numbness really matches collins’ themes of the senselessness of war. prim’s death makes people feel like the story was pointless, reinforcing the fact that there’s no winners in war.
Exactly! I think that’s what really fucked me up about the books and is honestly hard to convey in both writing and screen but sitting there thinking about the absolute uselessness of everything you just read is such a mindfuck and a literal perfect way to write about children dying because even though we loved Prim and never wanted anything to happen to her, she just ended up being another faceless death blown up like the hundreds of other kids we were forced to read and watch and it just really does something to you to realize that everyone had their Prim they had to watch die and it’s just tragic that it’s all a metaphor for the actual fucked up real world we live in where this happens everyday 😢
No, we're mad at Gale because he DOESN'T CARE IF INNOCENT CIVILIANS DIE. Gale made it crystal clear just how much he was willing to do to win. And killing innocent civilians is NOT okay. He helped create a device to do just that - kill more people - innocent people. This has nothing to do with a "love triangle" - it has to do with the character of the person.
Disagree. Gale was a victim of war and was tired of watching innocent kids be made to slaughter themselves for entertainment and control. So he adapted the same mentality to win for his cause. Is it morally right? No but factual. Tactics used everyday around the world during war and conflicts kill innocent civilians. Gale is human. If you think he such a bad person then you should feel the same way about Katniss. She knew her presence in those districts could end up with people being killed but she went anyways.
Interesting. My response about Gale breaking article eighteen of the Gen eva con ventio ns was removed. I suppose comments about wa r cr imes are a delicate subject right now. Wonder why that is? Maybe because it's topical, maybe because they're horrific, who can say?
he was both a product of the cruel environment in which he was raised AND was wrong for his willingness to commit war crimes in order to win the war. He was so angry with the capital as a whole that he wasn’t able to “remember who the real enemy (was)” and saw every person with ties to the capital as equally guilty, instead of remembering that it was only the corrupt people who were actually in power that had any control in what went on. Coin is 1000% at fault for Prim’s death, and she is an ACTUAL villain, but Gale is still wrong for helping create bombs that were meant to kill innocents in the first place. I don’t consider Gale a villain, I consider him a cautionary tale.
On not liking Katniss - the smartest thing Suzanne Collins does is to make sure, at every turn, that we know Katniss is a teenager. She's not suddenly wise or mature or knows what to do, because the tragedy is that she's a kid. Not only that, but in this book she's a teenager with severe PTSD. She (and all the other children who become tributes) are robbed of the natural path of growing up, that is completely stolen from her, in different ways. She doesn't get to be a child and play anymore because her father is killed and the system provides them with no safety net. She doesn't get to revel in a first crush because the way to survive was to play up a version of that she didn't even understand. She doesn't get to make mistakes because she's being watched all the time. She doesn't get to have dreams because her future (before the rebellion) was decided for her. The theme of stolen childhood (be it by poverty, by death, by trauma or by the games themselves) is all over this book.
Love this comment - very well written! One of the few stories you can hate, sympathize, love, ache for, and learn from in a trilogy where not everything we would like to be explored is laid out, but the soul of which fills in the gaps. Which is rather like trauma recovery in itself.
@@lynmoore_ I was praying for him, like lose a leg or two but come Backkk. And then the team decides to save themselves and you hate every one for next 20 pages. I just remembered how hard it is to watch it on screen, and you know when it is going to happen and it happens and you are shattered. I haven't rewatched Mockingjay movie where he dies, I mean I have watched all other movie twice or thrice and I would directly to the part where she kills Coin (satisfaction) but I can't see my baby die. He has been a favorite ever since Catching Fire, and the things he had to endure in his years at capitol just makes me wanna hold him and never let go. He shouldn't have gone through all this, and even since his young age, he was the youngest victor ever and he had to endure capitol since 14. Also it really doesn't help that Sam Caflin plays him. Like how do you make that character so vulnerable one moment and kill him the next. Still kinda mad at Collins for that.
Finnick's death was the hardest for me to digest. Prim was right after. I put Finnick above Prim because he finally seemed like he was ready to live a happy life. Had he decided to be a little selfish and stay in D13 he would still be alive with his family and that BROKE me.
"that's the one thing i had going for me. taking care of your family." HER SISTER IS DEAD BECAUSE OF SOMETHING HE INVENTED AND THAT IS THE LAST THING HE SAYS TO THE WOMAN HE IS IN LOVE WITH??? "does it matter? you'll always be thinking about it." HE DOESNT EVEN APOLOGIZE. PEETA WOULD NEVER.
Gale is fascinating in a metatextual way which is why I don't *hate* him, but I cannot control my *disgust* at his callousness and his entitlement to Katniss' feelings, and his last line was the nail in the coffin - "Does it matter? You'll always be thinking about it." No apology, no empathy, not even an attempt. He treats her loss as just an impediment to their relationship. He was souring me to him everytime he pushed her to choose between them, and while Peeta did the that one time he apologized and acknowledged theres more important shit going on. Katniss becomes less callous as the story progresses because she realises that even the people of the Capitol exists on spectrums and can change but Gale sees them as inhuman and they see him. He cannot understand what its like to kill people with his own hands because his kill count is impersonal and from a distance, and so the trauma and empathy for the enemy that Katniss, Finnick and Peeta have is weakness to him. Gale is necessary to the story because he's a realistic outcome of this situation, but that doesn't mean I like him
Peeta never pushed Katniss to choose. He was hurt, and he had every right to be because she actually acted like she cared about him and he didn't know it wasn't real. Of course he felt betrayed, because it was an actual betrayal. Gale felt betrayed whereas they were not together and never acted like they were.
@@ptitepeluche05 Oh I agree, Peeta is rightfully hurt and justifiably taking space. His comments aren't intended to weedle her into a guilt fueled choice, he's simply expressing his hurt and she feels guilty. I do think his apology is key though, because both Gale and Peeta were holding her to something they misunderstood (Gale's assumptions and Peeta's engineered reality) because he recognises that, while it isn't his fault, it isn't Katniss' fault either - they were/are in an impossible situation. Gale can't wrap his head around the fact that said impossible situation isn't over, it cannot be untangled so easily, and that she made him no promises beyond loyalty and care
100% agree, from book 1 Collins set up Gale this way, and while Peeta is no saint there's a difference - everyone grows but somehow Peeta's empathy remains. Real or Not Real
Gale's not irredeemable, but "your actions led to the death of my sister", even if it wasn't entirely intentional, doesn't leave a lot of room for a romance.
I still think one of the saddest aspects of Peeta's fate was from the first book her didn't want the capitol to turn him into something he is not. Then the capitol does just that in this book. Even with all the healing he has done by the end he is still forever changed. All of the characters are changed. These books really expertly show the cost that war has for everyone on all sides.
Gale is someone fueled by hate, so much that he lost his humanity. Katniss never wanted a lover or kids, but in Peeta she found someone who understands her trauma and just loved her. Gale was treating katniss like she owed it to him to love him. I really liked Katniss and Joannas friendship in the last book
Yeah, in Catching Fire Gale comes at Katniss for playing up a romance for the cameras, which she had to do to survive. All she can think about is how much danger she was in, how she was going to die, she is battling PTSD, and he butts in with "but what about me!? Do you like me back!?" all the time. Even in Mockinjay, she is even more traumatised and hurt and scared, and he's all like "but you don't even love me back... I'm sad!" Dude. Not the time.
I think everyone’s dislike of gale just comes from his lack of human empathy when it doesn’t affect him. He was able to create a bomb that would kill people who didn’t deserve it, people who could actually benefit the new society after the war ends. He was just so focused on vengeance. It only ever occurred to him that the war crime he created was bad after it killed someone’s he cared about. He even says he doesn’t care if the people are mopping floors for the capital, they are the enemy. Even though those people “mopping the floors” are avoxes who committed “treason” against the capital and got their tongues cut out. Even though he didn’t have control on how prim died, he was still ok with people like prim dying, because that’s how he designed it, and that doesn’t sit right with me.
The issue with the bomb is that no matter how you spin it, it is a war crime. You cannot bomb an area, have medics come in and then bomb those medics. There's no way to spin it. Katniss despises Gale not just because of his hand in Prim's death, but because he didn't care who was going to suffer. That's the side of it she was never able to push away, he did not care who was to be hurt when he created it, when planning it with beetee they even mention drawing in a crowd to help, he knew since the beginning it would be cruel and unjustified, and he stil went with it against Katniss' warnings, and it killed Prim.
I hear you, but my issue is around the logic within this world. Everything listed in the Geneva convention is used by the capitol. “War crimes” don’t exist in Panem and the logic was to fight them with the same tactics that the capitol used. Horrible? Yes 10000%. But I can’t sit back on a high horse about a war that’s districts children in even worse ways
@@lynmoore_ While understandable, it is a theme throughout the books that attempting to fight fire with fire, that is to say, use the same tactics, is not okay. We read about it with the torturing of the prep team, Katniss and her second guessing the Nut avalanche, linking it to the mines in 12, we see it again with the hunger games vote. Is the level of violence understandable from a district rebel perspective, yes ofc, but the book makes it clear that we shouldn't conflate understandable with justifiable. Overall great reaction!
@@lynmoore_ while there may be no laws against war crimes, it doesn't mean they don't exist to the people they happen to. Like Prim. I think that is what she is saying about death being personal.
@@lynmoore_it's genuinely a no-win scenario in that way which i like narratively but ooooo it hurts. i get katniss never wanting anything to do with gale after it all, but i also couldn't fully hate gale for his actions as it is an understandable tactic when you're against a seemingly insurmountable evil that's controlled everything and hasn't valued life at any point. his character is a very realistic character in the scheme of things and while i never really cared for him as a love interest, i find his arc interesting and very tragic as he's still like...17-18? insanity
I wasn't a huge fan of Gale because it always felt that he thought he was owed Katniss almost. He had this plan for their future she never said she wanted and everytime she did something against it he got upset with her for it. Peeta realized he did that to her after the games and apologized but Gale basically apologized to Peeta and never Katniss. But the love triangle was also never supposed to be this huge thing because like you said with everything happening who cares. An unintended commentary when the media and fans ended up playing up and into the love triangle when the movies came out instead of the more prevalent points of the book.
This!! I felt like his actions were manipulative at times. Also when they were going to run away together a second time, when Katniss wanted other people to join he was so absolute about not including the people Katniss wanted. He couldn't recognize that Katniss cared for Peeta and Haymitch as much as her family and he couldn't understand that. Also since the very beginning *he* said killing people is almost no different than killing animals. You can see how that opinion kinda builds up to what happens in the 3rd book and Katniss strongly disagreed with that statement. As long as he didn't know these people, it didn't really matter to him if they died and that's what really set him apart from Katniss. Katniss cared not only people she knew about, not only the districts, but people in the capital as well.
YES this this this the moment that cemented my dislike for him is when he gets annoyed at her implying that peeta should join them as they escape 12 in the second book
i think the reason you are Team Gale is because you are not a woman. Almost every time Gale was mentioned, he was antagonistic with Katniss. Every time Peeta acted out with Katniss, he apologized. He never let his jealousy out on Katniss, unlike Gale, and overall, he was a safe space for her. Gale was way too selfish with Katniss, from the beginning.
Very true, I notice men tend to like Gale more. I saw another reaction before with 2 men and a woman ans the woman hated Gale whereas the men would defend him no matter what he did and it’s interesting. People make it too much about the love triangle and it’s fascinating, and like you said I do think it is because they aren’t woman and can’t see the red flags that we can. The way he treats Katniss majority of the time just isn’t it, and his character is written as someone that has hints of this at the beginning and then he starts to fall into that anger more and more.
I agree so wholeheartedly. Peeta is such a feeling character who truly attempts to SEE Katniss whereas Gale has a more dominant vibe and tries to convince Katniss of things using logic. As a woman, Peeta’s empathy is so much safer and endearing than Gale’s physical protection
@@jacobbraun1243 I think the reason many men like Gale more is that Peeta has all the traits often seen as traditionally "feminine". He's empathetic, caring, he doesn't force himself on Katniss (emotionally or physically), he is social, good with words, wants to avoid fighting as much as he can, etc. I suspect that Gale feels more like a traditional manly man, and masculinity and "masculine" traits are often valued more than femininity and "feminine" traits. Despite the fact that none of those traits are in any way actually gendered. So if you see yourself in Peeta a lot, I guess that means you value empathy and care, or maybe you don't have as much of a gendered view of character traits. Or both. 😊
I feel like the reason why a lot of women don’t like Gale is because he reminds them of one of their guy friends who was interested in them but would get upset at them if they turned him down or dated other guys because he believes he deserves requited love. In my interpretation of Gale, I believe he thought he deserved Katniss. Whereas Peeta fully believed he didn’t deserve Katniss. Peeta would still be grateful even if he saw Katniss one hour a week. Gale practically threw a tantrum when Katniss just wanted to be friends. Add all of that plus him being connected to Prim’s death makes a lot of people not like him very much 😅
a necessary but perhaps confusing aspect of the books is that, in the end, though katniss definitely does spark a revolution through her bravery and kindness, when it comes to the actual revolutionary fighting in the end, she doesn't do much at all. she is very removed from the front line of a violent uprising and in the end she's even paraded out to symbolically kill snow, even though she was so separated from the plan that won the war. a very interesting look at revolutionary figures/actual revolutionary actions (gale, the districts)
agreed! i once read somewhere that hunger games is the continued emphasis that katniss is an accidental symbol of the rebellion. all she ever wanted to do was protect her little sister; she’s not some mastermind martyr. like she’s just a kid who happens to encompass a degree of tenacity that made her image perfect to manipulate for a greater purpose. that’s why the end makes more sense than her taking over the government like some people wanted her to
The reason why the audience doesn’t see a a lot of the events in the third part of the book is because nobody invited her to these meetings, nobody has these conversations with her, nobody asks her what they should do. Despite being the spark and symbol of the rebellion, she is kept in the dark with nearly everything!!!
"You all hate Gale for creating a bomb that he had no idea how it would be used". Er, he knew how it was gonna be used. It was his idea earlier to lure people in after the first bomb and then blow them up. He just didn't plan for it to be used on his side and Prim to die. He was fine with that horrendous tactic and he was fine with killing kids, which is the first phase to then lure adults in. How are you defending him this hard 😅 Do you also think the inventor of the atomic bomb has no culpability?
Ok, the issue with Gale is not Prim, yeah, some people hate him because of it, but the issue with him is how possessive and mad he gets with every single book. The "I dont know how people can hate this guy when he's going to save the person his loved one loves over him", he's going because he was hoping to get attacked and either getting Peeta 💀 or having an excuse to leave him there and then come back, thinking Katniss will see him as a hero, because he risked his life to try to get Peeta out. He's also the engineer behind a bomb that is a war crime. He didn't know about Prim, but he totally was hoping about getting Capitol people in it to try to help the first few... Also the "I just got rid of the only opportunity i had for you to look at me", meaning that he actually took Prim and her mom out of 12th yeah because they were "his 2nd family", but also because he was expecting Katniss to thank him for it and get some "good guy" points with her. He has always been this guy who plans on the background to try to get more appealing towards her by manipulating the situation, and this is something Suzanne has confirmed, because she was upset about the editorial forcing her to make a love angle, because of Twilight success, that she made him the obvious 🚩. Eh, Suzanne regrets about Finnick, is the only thing she regrets about the original trilogy (and the fact that she got forced to write a love angle). She knew the whole time about Prim, and that was the point for the whole trilogy. She was there because she tells Katniss she's been training and working with the medics of 13th and she was hoping to get deployed to help people. Coin is indeed the one who killed her. Eh... Plutarch Heavensbee actor passed mid recording of the movies, so they used another beloved character instead. And from Catching Fire to Mockingjay there is a 3 months time skip. The whole trilogy is a year and a half.
you put it all so eloquently you deserve all the likes, thank you. gale shows no remorse even in their final conversation. he shows his true colours through the whole of this last book, and even his colours are painted 100% by the system, we see different colours in the character of peeta. gale is a victim of the war and suffering they went through but he let his humanity on the side and even though I can understand it, I cannot like him.
@@luisfilipepereira9703 Yeah, agreed. I see a lot of excuses for Gale to want to kill innocent people and non-combatants in these comments. "He's been through a war! He wants revenge!" okay, so? Katniss and Peeta weren't sleeping through this war, and they're not chomping at the bit to kill civilians and commit genocide (remember Gale wanting to suffocate the entire population of district 2?), but Gale is. Yes, he's been through hell, that doesn't make it okay to murder children. Gale went through a lot of trauma, but so did everybody else. I can understand his reasoning, but that doesn't make his actions okay, he is not a good person.
Also Katniss says yes to the hunger games and says “for prim” as a code to Haymitch. They always understood each other and had a similar way of thinking and it’s her way of asking if coin is responsible for prim. He agrees on that, and on the idea that Coin will be no better than Snow.
To me the fact that the capital destroyed Peeta to the point he tried to kill Katniss is so sad. It's like they killed the person but left the body to do the worst thing Peeta could ever do. After it he will go on to recover little by little, but the Peeta we like from the first two books is not there anymore, he is something else.
so, personally, my dislike for gale actually started in catching fire: when katniss offers him to escape and includes peeta in her plan and he gets angry at her over caring for him due to jealousy and how he feels about peeta and ostensibly his family. because (to me) he sees katniss and her family as 'his', kind of in the way that animals see their pack, and peeta as an outsider who no only he doesnt care for but katniss cares for him, and he has a connection to her he doesnt have (their shared experiences in the games) meanwhile, in contrast, peeta is pretty clear in the arena of quarter quell that he understands that gale is important for katniss, and he'd never make her choose himself over gale: he recognises she cares for him the same or more that katniss cares about peeta, and he gets it, because katniss is a protector, and it just means to him that if katniss cares about him then do does him then in mockingjay gale is pretty immediate in becoming a soldier. a war tactician and a planner for this rebellion. he slowly became so detached, and is clearly willing to give up So Many Things in order to achieve what HE thinks is right and correct. and he will follow it, and follow through u til the end, sacrifices be damned. he's willing to do one bomb to cause harm, and yhen plan that it will bring in a crowd of others to help those who are hurt and then bomb that crowd -medics, rescue units, not military personal. even katniss mentions at one point that it was gale who was good at traps, even when they were just hunting. so, to me, my dislike for gale started a lot more personal, and then it got worse with this book.
as an extra, after finishing the video, i think the reason you dpnt dislike gale is because you're seeing him from the view of a man seeing another man trying to "protect the girl he loves" most women i know dislike him because he feels like a guy who thinks katniss owes him loving him, and who only cares about others when it means it will make him look good towards her (him going to save peeta to get nice guy points; him not caring about who the bomb would kill until it killed prim 😅)
@@gatangela2008 Yeah, any time Gale does something for Katniss, it's mentioned by lynmoore as if that somehow means that Katniss MUST like him back now. As in, I did this thing for you, now you must want to date me, and like... No. That's not how that works. You can't buy someone's love by doing things for them.
@@AnnekeOosterink yup. gale says it best at the fucking nasty line he says to katniss when she wakes up in 13 after prim dies "it's all i had going for me, taking care of your family" like HUH? SO YOU WERE DOING ALL THAT JUST TO "HAVE THAT GOING FOR YOU"??? anyways yea
Gale did not intend to design those bombs to kill Prim - but it’s the fact he designed it with Beetee to kill someone else’s Prim is what makes him trigger happy. If Prim wasn’t there, there would be no remorse. But since Prim was there, of course he feels guilty.
I get your dislike of the ending/lack of payoff in regards to the war ending while Katniss is unconscious. I will say though it does sort of fit Suzanne Collins main idea of Katniss not actually being a rebel leader, just a teenage figurehead and a pawn used for propaganda. All of this started because she wanted to protect Prim, but with Prim dead she didn’t care about the war or its outcome. Definitely a lack of payoff for those wanting an action filled finale, but fitting for who Katniss is as a character.
Here’s why the Peeta/Gale thing is important: it symbolizes a larger message of the books. A lot of THG deals with how to respond to the atrocities of the world: do you respond with anger, resentment, and violence like Gale? Or do you respond with hope, empathy, and radical optimism like Peeta? I don’t dislike Gale for who he is, I know Peeta is the better option for what he symbolizes. Peeta goes through hell and still fights through it for love. Gale goes through hell and responds by bombing children. The love triangle is the way the narrative frames the message of the book.
Apparently, Susan Collins said she wrote this in honor of her parents who were survivors of I think world war II. The idea is that war is not heroic as much as we try to make it in the moment. All you can do is make the best of what you've got. Be like Peeta. That's the way to peace.
what’s important to note is that suzanne always chooses names with meaning intended. coin was always meant to be the other side of snow’s coin. they’re the same.
For me Katniss not really being witness to or even really relevant in the fall of the capital is actually really clever because I think it highlights the fact the ultimately she is nothing more than the spark she is a propaganda tool but once they dont need her for propaganda she irrelevant she was just being used first by the capital and then by 13 and in the end it back fires on both sides, also I personally agree the fandom over hates Gale, but I also believe he is his own downfall because he is willing to stoop to the same level as the capital, its his idea to murder everyone in the mine, and it his idea to target children and hurt them as means of controlling/killing the adults who are the real pray which is ultimately what the hunger games are so him killing Prim is on him and not on him because obviously he would never target prim but he was happy for his bombs to target other innocent children, I think the strength of the series is that it shows that even when the revolution is just people on the just side can become just as violent and cruel as the oppressors in different ways and it leads to. sting more than traumatised people, the love triangle aspect to me is overplayed in now we discuss it compared to how much of the book it takes up, but Peeta becoming brainwashed and even in the epilogue still unable to tell what is real and not real is so sad because that was his power the thing that he was best at was lying and talking and charming people and the capital stole that and also they did the one thing he didn't want from the first book they made him into a piece in there games they made him into the violent killer they always wanted, the final book isn't satisfying to read. because there is no happy ending but I think that makes for a better story and a better allegory to real life.
you are right on point with Katniss' not being responsible for the Capitol's downfall, she was a spark but it would have given a teenager too much credit - the rebellion had been in place well before Katniss came into the picture. Katniss' story was about Prim and wow if that wasn't such a necessary death. Coin would never had been revealed - she made that huge mistake. And wasn't that stated, by Snow? That last bomb wasn't even necessary everyone knew Capitol was lost but Coin still acted ruthless and revealed as the worst of two evils. I didn't hate Gale, but there was no coming back from that doubt
I think my anger at Gale after the bomb was more so about how much he didn't seem to care about who the bomb would kill when it was originally discussed and then it killed Prim and he was like "oh maybe that was a bad choice" like no crap it was a bad choice! Other than that I didn't hate him I was just always more in love with Peeta and who he was as a person
Gale creating the bomb isn’t the problem. From the moment she comes home in the 2nd book he pressures her to make things romantic between them and is wounded and guilt trips her over what happened between her and Peeta in the games. He never indicated he had feelings for her until after she became unintentionally entangled with Peeta in order to survive and he provides NO UNDERSTANDING or support to her in the fallout. Instead he’s moody and pushes her to choose. Meanwhile Peeta does have actual hurt feelings and APOLOGIZES for getting upset with her because he knows it’s not fair to hold her accountable for what happened during the games. He doesn’t pressure her. He loves her unconditionally and doesn’t make her feel like she has to return it. With Gale it feels like it’s all or nothing. If she won’t love him the way he wants her to, then he will cut her off. That’s scary for her and puts her in the position of having to to choose because she doesn’t want to lose him. Gale is toxic and the red flags are the problem.
Well, I agree about Gale pushing Katniss and showing lots of red flag, but I would argue Gale being okay with murdering innocent civilians, and advocating for genocide twice (District 2 and all the Capitol people even the people who mop the floors are enemies to him), is a pretty big problem. It tells us that he doesn't care that innocent children will die, he doesn't care about killing them himself, he doesn't value human lives, he doesn't want peace, he wants revenge. He's not a good person. And while his want for revenge is understandable (as in, I understand how he got where he is), it doesn't make any of his actions okay. Or words. And the final red flags someone else pointed out, he doesn't say sorry after Prim's death. Not for being the one who invented the bomb, not for the fact that Katniss lost her sister even, he only says that now he no longer has a chance to get with Katniss. And like. What!? Who says that?
i think Katniss not being there for the revolution is because, in the end, the revolution wasn’t about her. she was the mockingjay but she wasn’t special, and definitely not a military mastermind who really knew what it took to storm the capitol, so it makes sense she would actually just end up wounded in battle. she was a symbol and, more than anything, a teenager who was in way over her head
The voting for the symbolic hunger games scene is SO MUCH BETTER in the movie. There is so much you see going on in her head and she talks to Haymitch with just a look. It’s just so much better in the movie.
Small note: the Chilean miners did not die! They were rescued in a very impressive operation (source: I am Chilean and I still remember this too hahah)
i think the fact that we don’t see the wrap up of the war makes sense. prim was the main person katniss wanted to protect, and prim died anyway. this is katniss’s POV and even if she was conscious to see all of that stuff happen in real time, i doubt she would even care or be mentally present enough to detail it to us. what does this new panem matter to her, when the person she was fighting for isn’t there to see it? although, i understand how it can be frustrating as a reader not to see the fall out of everything! 14:32
through the entire series katniss cared about prim more than the rebellion. she did everything for prim. of course when prim dies anyway the rebellion doesn’t matter
YES!! ultimately this story is about katniss and prim, and if prim is gone nothing matters. realistically, i think suzanne may have just wanted to spare children reading these books from political talk and long recovery scenes where katniss was spaced out and mostly unconscious. it also shows how she was never truly a part of the rebellion, and once her propaganda wasn’t needed anymore they abandoned her.
For the Gale thing, I haven’t read the books so I don’t know the original intention, but in the movies it plays that the idea of how the bomb worked was planned by Gale, and although Prim wasn’t intended to be victim to it, the idea of luring people in seeking aid and then killing them is an attack on innocent civilians and not the enemy, which is disgusting no matter who it involves
I will say, what you said about how what Gale did “only matters because it’s Prim” is kinda the point. The two stage bomb system that Gale invented is a literal war crime, something Katniss pointed out when it got brought up the first time in District 13. But, Gale didn’t care about the gross waste of human life that the bomb would cause, he had too much of an eye-for-an-eye mentality against the Capitol to see things with that level of clarity. The only reason he feels any remorse at all over what he did is because Prim got caught in the crossfire. He only cared because the situation negatively affected him personally. Not to mention he was a complete dick to poor Katniss about it after the fact, and made Prim’s death about his relationship with Katniss. You’re right that Gale was manipulated by Coin, but that doesn’t absolve him of all guilt here.
Im so glad that im watching someone react to these books. It feels validating especially because i was told I overreacted. To this day, i tell myself that Finnick is okay and living a lovely life with Annie
Here is kinda why i never was team Gale: I felt like his actions were manipulative at times. Like that kiss in the 3rd book, he purposely looked hurt so Katniss would kiss him. Also when they were going to run away together a second time, when Katniss wanted other people to join he was so absolute about not including the people Katniss wanted. He couldn't recognize that Katniss cared for Peeta and Haymitch as much as her family and he couldn't understand that. Like i get that it's going to be very difficult to bring so many people with him, but he didn't understand why that to Katniss they were important to her and that she simply can't abandon people for her wellbeing. Also since the very beginning *he* said killing people is almost *no different than killing animals*. You can see how that opinion kinda builds up to what happens in the 3rd book and Katniss strongly disagreed with that statement. As long as he didn't know these people, it didn't really matter to him if they died and that's what really set him apart from Katniss. Katniss cared not only people she knew about, not only the districts, but people in the capital as well.
I can't remember if it was in the first book, but it was in the first movie. When Katniss is talking with Gale when she has just volunteered, he tells her she knows how to hunt. She says she knows how to hunt animals, and at that point Gale says there's no difference. Those weren't even Capitol kids he could feel resentful about, those were kids from other Districts. If Gale had been in the games, he would have had way more active kills than Katniss did. Including potentially Rue. He is willing to completely distance himself from empathy in order to achieve his goals, and in the end that makes him one and the same as the Capitol. The children in the Capitol are not guilty. Many adults in the Capitol are capable of goodness and weren't part of the oppression, as seen in Cinna or Effie or the prep team or the propo team. In fact the vast majority of the Capitol weren't directly involved in the oppression. It was just a few rich, powerful people pulling the strings. Let me ask bluntly - would you say the entirety of the US population should pay for the damage done to the many countries the US military has decimated, that too with their lives? The issue with Gale is that he is more than willing to perpetuate the cycle of violence. He would rather have revenge than peace. Which is what started the Games in the first place: it was an act of revenge by the Capitol against the Districts. They justified the violence they enacted on innocent kids because the Districts had enacted violence on them in the past. Someone needed to break the cycle, and Katniss recognised it. Also, just a note on you finding the ending emotionally uneventful. At the end of the day, that's how real life revolutions are. There isn't a hero, there isn't a chosen one, it's a collective effort and one person being MIA isn't going to sabotage the whole plan, especially not someone who is basically just the mascot. Every single person in 13 lost loved ones, it's not something Katniss suffered uniquely. You should watch the video on THG by Just Write about this, it's really good (there's no prequel spoilers in it).
Ok so why I like Peeta more… to be clear I don’t hate Gale but I don’t like him either. The first time I read the series I could not put my finger on why I didn’t like him. After a couple more times and getting older… Gale acted like Katniss owed him a relationship. Yes everyone assumed they would be together before she went into the games. But when she returned Gale expected things to go back to the way they were while Katniss was truly suffering from PTSD. Gale always wanted to pressure Katniss to choose and made her feel guilty she didn’t know what she wanted. Gale is not a bad guy as you have pointed out, he did great things but Katniss was fighting to survive and made every conversation come back to him wanting her. Peeta made it clear that he has always loved her and will always love her but does not expect anything from her. Peeta made her feel safe and secure while she was healing. Katniss wrapped it up perfectly in the end… Gale is fire and she has enough of that herself. Peeta is the calm that she needs. Yes many hate Gale because of Prim and that is all complicated. Which is the point, who do we blame for war crimes… the one who makes the decision, the soldiers, the bomb makers?
Another thing on Gale, if you look at his interactions with Katniss, you’ll notice that they don’t actually have all that much in common, they only ever discuss survival and hunting (battle strategies can also come under this too). Two things that aren’t the best foundation for a lasting relationship. Mockingjay begins to strip away those interests when they’re in 13, and after that they start drifting away from each other, Katniss outright says it. They’re not gonna rely on each other for survival forever and in that situation it’s all you can think about and everything else comes second to putting food on the table. Their values don’t align at all and I worry for what kind of person Katniss would have become if she ended up with a character that ruthless. Chapters 14 and 15 were a very defining moment for him. Gale is another victim of the system but he let it consume him, and while there was no way he could fully understand what Katniss went through in the Games, at no point has he even tried. He’s been very focused on himself, though he dresses it up as concern and protective behaviour, at least in my opinion, it’s hard to get a full grasp on his character because the book is first person and we’re not in his head. Yet, he may be an adult but for me he’ll always be a boy playing soldier
All the way through this video I was just thinking of this quote: 'Nothing ever ends poetically. It ends and we turn it into poetry. All that blood was never once beautiful. It was just red.' - Kait Rokowski
Suzanne called the medias obsession with the love triangle over the actual main themes and events happening around it, and most people (ESPECIALLY at the HG height) totally missed it
I think its more devastating when you realise. Katness did it ALL for prim. Not herself, not the boys, her sister. Prim was the reason everything happened and when she dies it felt like it was all for nothing. And gale having even the smallest part in that? I myself dont think Id have the fortitude to forgive that.
I think my personal biggest issue with gale is he truly believed the ends justified the means. He was willing to kill innocent civilians in order to get to first responders, was willing to sacrifice everyone in the nut to take it down, and he would have 100% agreed to another hunger games. His character is extremely nuanced, but he always seems to blame Katniss for her own survival
The thing about the "love triangle" is that it's not really about romance, but about themes. Thematically, Katniss has to choose Peeta, because he represents hope and being able to move forward. Gale represents the opposite, and it's not what Katniss needs.
I hate this book. It broke my heart when I was 13. That is just evil, Suzanne. I was a child!!! But I also love it, so... I hope you love it/hate it as well!
I love that she left out seeing all the stuff that happens while Katniss is healing at the end and that we don’t get to see any of it. Imagine being her? You fought so hard and then nothing. You get nothing but the hollow aftermath of war. Sure your side “won” but all you feel is the cost. Absolutely brilliant writing. So many wounded in so many wars have experienced that same exact thing and I think it truly speaks to her intentions in what she wants the audience to feel. The true cost of living through a war even in victory. Pain.
3:40 EXCUSE ME WHAT I WONT STAND FOR THIS MISINFORMATION!/hj I’m Chilean and the miners were very famously not crushed and killed, they’re fine, we saved them. I might have been 10 when it happened but I remember watching the rescue live on tv
I remember my first time reading this and being devestated for Katniss. Before Peeta is rescued her guilt and grief over him is so consuming, she misses him and wants him there more than i think she ever thought. And when he and the others are finally rescued, she watches this beautiful and touching moment with Finnick an Annie, and we know in her mind she is so conflicted. Part of her wants to hug and kiss him, part of her is terrified he will hate her or blame her for leaving him behind, she wonders will he still love her, will he still be her friend? She misses her friend so so much... and then he attacks her. Her heart breaks. She learns whats happened to him. And after that she becomes cold, hostile, desperate to be anywhere that he isnt because she cant stand to see how different he is because of his torture and the guilt and grief she feels, and she cant stand to see him look at her with hate and disgust and fear. So she throws herself into the 'war' and desperately wants to end snow for all he has done, for all he has taken.... she pulls away from peeta because her grief is too much to bear. Shes 17. She has no idea what to do, and her coping mechanism has always been action. Hunt, barter, care for her family. Fight, survive. I'm surprised to see a POV disliking her or not caring about what happened to Peeta/ between her and Peeta, honestly.
This was the first book I actually threw when I got to prims end. This whole series was to save prim and then it didn't matter. Plus we hate Gale because that plan was gales. The bombs and the plan.
You: I really like finnick Me: OH NO I really love Boggs, he's one of my favorites. The elevator scene in the book while Katniss was with Boggs and the whole "We just saw Finnick Odair in his underwear." is hilarious I love that so much.
finnick’s story will always break my heart. to have a character go through everything that the capitol put him through at 14 years old only to die at 24 after almost making it out will never not hurt
In case you were curious, Suzanne has said that prim dying was always going to happen. And that makes it a brutal but well thought out ending for me. The whole narrative is based on Katniss volunteering to save Prim, and in the end she still dies.
The thing that sets Katniss away from Gale forever, and probably the reader, is that he succumbs to the Capitol’s way. The end does not justify the means. That double trigger bomb was Gale’s orignal idea, not Betee’s. Katniss, as a child of the Hunger Games has seen firsthand the horror of innocent deaths. (That’s why the reader is surprised at her voting I for the capitol children HG)
I never really liked gale, since the first moment cause i felt he was a little old to be acting like such a child, but in this particular case I know what you mean. The first readthrough i also was like ummm well maybe is not so henious I mean is it really that horrible? and moved on. But then i watched the movie, his intent and then read it again and understood his context. He was aware of everything, having disscused this plans with Beetee and he was in close coalition with Coin, he didnt like her but he respected her drive to beat fire with fire. My hatred for him was that he knew and WANTED innocent people to be hurt, the first round of bombs was always meant to kill and maime innocents and peacekeepers alike, ant the second was always meant to kill first responders. It doesnt really matter that it was Prim, its the intent. What does matter in the matter of Prim is that he never apologizes, he never even admits it was his bomb when he KNEW it was, he gaslights her into putting the responsability of getting over it in her hands and he takes 0 accountability, he never visits her in the hospital cause he rather hide than face her, cause he KNOW what he did and he much rather sweep it under the rug just saying "Does it matter? You'll always be thinking about it" as if it was her fault that she was emotionally closed off, as if it was her fault that she was never going to get over it. He never even TRIES to apologize, to seem genuine to tell her that she was right that he was wrong, that his actions were terrible NOTHING, just I lost so it no longer matters and I'll leave now and not care anymore about you or your family like??@$%#. And i mean that literally, he never even mentions her mom, says nothing about them or prim or effie or anyone that even mattered to her, hos response is that caring for her family was the one thing he had going for him (as opposed to peeta) like... i dont think she could give any less of a shit rn about her love life when she is mourning the death of her sister. why do you pit yourself like that? is just shit and not the moment to be talking about this, context clues Gale. My dislike wasnt the bomb, it was his intent. My hatred for his character wasnt the fact that Prim died, it was that he acted as it never even mattered cause he had lost to peeta, when it had NOTHING to do with him and EVERYTHING todo with katniss lossing her sister when it was the only person that ever mattered to Katniss since before gale.
I think the best way to experience this story is to not focus solely on the love triangle. I think focusing on the love triangle (mainly because of the movies’ marketing) is really detrimental to the story, since it is NOT about that. It is a part of it, yes, but this story is about the suppression and dehumanization of groups in the population and eventually about the ramifications of war (mainly on the individual). Reducing the story to ‘just another YA dystopia with a love triangle’ takes away so much of the messaging and reading experience.
The WHOLE thing started because Katniss was trying to protect her sister. All her struggle the meaning of all of it to her is to keep her family safe. It also serves to ground us n not get caught up in the fake glory of war or the propaganda to uplift by Coin's n Plutarch's side. Prim STILL dies. Regardless of everything that Katniss did trying SO HARD to prevent it. This renders Katniss' whole fight pointless. To her at least. This masterfully establishes the despair of war. What Mashashi Kishimoto failed to do with the ridiculous Itachi and Sasuke Uchiha massacre-revenge plot.
Gale was only sorry because it was Prim, it was Katniss’ Prim. Had it been a different innocent 13 year old medic, he wouldn’t have batted an eye. But because it was Prim, he was sorry. Gale will always trade innocent life to succeed and win. That is why we hate him.
Friendly reminder about this thing: “That was one of the first questions I asked [Suzanne Collins] when we sat down: ‘Did you always know that [Prim] was going to die?’ And she said, ‘Oh yeah, of course, that’s the whole point.’” :)))
Like others have said, it's not just the bomb. It's how Gale treats Katniss, and it's how he doesn't even comfort it apologize for Prim's death, the only thing he's concerned about is that the only thing he has going for him (for Katniss to choose him) is that he looked after he family. All the time he's just trying to get her to choose him while being a red flag. Sure he didn't choose how the bomb was used but he chose to address Prim's death as losing him his chance with Katniss. Also you're supposed to feel numb and lost at the end, that's kind of the point of the theme of war.
It's so great to see how these books have even more meaning now than when they first came out, they give so much perspective into an issue that's more relevant now than ever, on how senseless wars are and how they can turn someone who means well into the same monster that they are fighting, thank you for these videos! Looking forward to see more
I liked what you said about the ending because it was never going to be satisfying. It’s bittersweet and numbing and I think the author really delivered showing the realities of the war they survived. There are no winner just survivors.
The first time I read this book I also focused on the love triangle, but the second (and third) time I read it i can only focus on the social commentary of it all. Once you get over the top layer that focus on the relationships you get into the deeper meaning of the story, which is all about the senselessness of war and people’s hunger for power on the backs of the people they control
I think so many of the points you raised that you didn't like are the point of the books. It isn't satisfying and no one really wins and it is pointless! They go through all of this and what are they left with. Also similarly with the romance, it isn't a main point really and I think is played up more in the films. Gale maybe isn't as bad as he could be, but he does prove himself to not care about human lives if it will win the war. Also he is just a red flag in an understated way with how he is with Katniss throughout, and I think you see that more as an adult
I mean, first Gale wanted to trap a bunch of people in a mountain to slowly suffocate and then created a bomb to target first responders... Ik we're in a different universe here, but that's pretty fucked up. "Enemies" or not 🤷🏼♀️
For the Gale thing, during all the books Gale doesn’t really care about Katniss. He cares about the idea of Katniss being in his future as a romantic partner. Yes, their relationship it did start off as a survival need between both families. But he didn’t care for her feelings all the long and kind of hinted/pushed the idea of a romantic partnership, while she had always made it clear she can’t think about a future like that because of the need of survival of her and her family is a day to day task. When she brings that fact up, he frames his wants under the guise of it’s for our survival that all, while saying he wants a family of his own as well. And that’s when she made it clear, she had no wish to have children in poverty while being fully threatened to be killed for fun by the capitol. He was like well it’s a big IF if it happens but I want kids. He is also ok with killing people, who like Katniss, is affairs of the repercussions of the capitol to advance the rebellion to the capitol. Which goes against what the rebellion propaganda is saying, we are all neighbors and the capitol is killing us or setting us up against each other so they remain untouched. He is a very well written character that has depth like all the other characters, I just don’t like him and think he’s boring to listen to, and don’t think he thinks of Katniss as her own person but more of a trophy/extension of his capabilities.
Part of the reason Gale is blamed for Prim's death and the bombing (to me) is that Coin got her comeuppance when Katniss turned and shot her instead of Snow, but Gale survived. I also think that because the books are in first person, a reader gets the sense that Katniss would never truly be able to forgive Gale for that, even though it wasn't directly his fault, and takes on those feelings. That being said, I doubt Gale ever really forgave himself for it either.
15:07 I think the issue is not that he was at fault for prim’s death, but that seeing gale’s bomb and plan come to fruition in reality made it concrete to katniss how different their perspectives were in terms of what is and is not acceptable to achieve your goal. gale is pretty clear that he’s okay with innocent noncombatants dying if it means he rebellion succeeding, while katniss is much more hesitant about what is too far. she believes gale’s perspective is the slippery slope to justifying something like the hunger games - collective punishment. she started to learn that she and gale had widely differing moral stances on this, but seeing the actual real-life manifestation of gale’s viewpoint in the 2-stage bombs dropped on innocent capitol children/civilians made it CONCRETE and unavoidable. seeing it happen in real life made that moral divide clear to her. that’s how I always read it at least.
i think the main argument about your opinion of gale after the bombing (and I'm going off of the movie lines and order because i cant remember if they're lines from the book atm) is that earlier when gale suggest the dual round bombings is that he doesn't care who they are and "even if they're sweeping the floors of the capitol they're still the enemy". So his intent for the bombs weren't only to kill children, but to make sure the children were dead, that parents, other citizens, soldiers, and medics (which ended up being prim) were all still killed because no matter what they are his enemy. so even if he didn't plan that they would happen there, or didn't know who would be killed, people really just don't like his sentiment behind the creation, and its really offputting to hear from someone who tried to save as many people as possible from his over district from similar bombings. imo if this really was his feeling of war over the entire book series, he would've died in district 12 because he would've never gave up on getting people out.
Gale is so blinded with the desire to be a hero, a rebel and a fighter that he doesn't care about the people that will die for his bombs until Prim dies. And when it happens he doesn't even apologize, like... I get Katniss knows he didn't mean to, and that Coin manipulated everything, but Katniss also knows that Gale wanted this war more that he wanted to protect her family. So when the last thing he says to her is "I lived to save them" and doesn't even apologize, it tastes like a lie, like everything was a lie, he didn't care much about her family, he only wanted her to desire him. And now that's not possible, so he just brushed it under the carpet and left to have his life somewhere else. The reason we are team Peeta, is because Peeta cares so much for Katniss that her safety and the safety of her family were more important to him than being a rebel. So I think Suzanne slipt them apart because she knew that if Peeta was there at 13 he would have ran away with Katniss without hesitation.
Sadboi Gale was so irritating when he was having issues with Finnick as well. I get his jealousy of Peeta but Finnick? After being an as* to Katniss as a friend and her finding someone who can actually understand what she’s going through? Then the war crimes, he isn’t excused along with Coin, Plutarch and Beetee. I know people die in war, but the way they went about it is just as bad as Snow bombing a hospital. I don’t hate him, I disliked him for a mix of things but more because he’s too freaking self-absorbed and his actual last words to Katniss was still making Prim’s death about himself.
i think that whole chunk of stuff that happens while katniss feels unconscious is so clever bc it’s like all this big stuff happens and we feel so disconnected and it’s just like now what??? that’s what she’s feeling too
The downfall of Gale is that his bravery and gallantry turn into revenge lust - a desire for destruction violence and death out of anger which is legit. But Katniss suffered both sides of a war and turned further away because he couldn’t see humanity through a desire for revenge. (She said he was fire she didn’t need) And then the one main weapon he created that she warned him against killed her sister and so she was done. Prim was her reason for being and it wasn’t gales fault, but the trauma split them into two different spectrums. Can’t wait to see you watch the movies!!!
Gale didnt know how the double bomb would be utilized but the fact he helped produce it is the problem. My reason to think gale is beyond forgiveness is for how he handeled The Nut. Katniss herself says it, but the fact that he is a miner who is was willing to condemn a mountain full of fellow miners to the fate of his and katniss's fathers is beyond reprehensible. He fundamentally lacks empathy, not to mention how transactionally he views his relationship with katniss. He does nice things for her and expects her to love him for it and is toxic when she doesn't love him the way he wanted her to
I think for me, my issue with Gale is more his accusations in the first book about her loving Peeta and being upset with how she had to survive. And also that he was so focused on jealousy when the girl he loved was fighting for her life. and even if she had fallen in love with peeta at that point, I iwsh he could've been happy for her, but also he was a teenager. I think my issue with the third book is that he was okay with bombing medical personal, and i dont remember if he said anything about it being used on children. I think he just let his anger and violence take over everything I did and when I was younger I was angry about that and now I pity him more, minus the bombing medical personal thing.
I’m glad you came around on the ending. I think it’s very satisfying to see Katniss s take ownership and kill Coin. RIP Finnick you deserved everything
I don’t think Gale had anything to do with planning Prims death. Creating the bomb( and planning to bury people alive with a cave in) are symptoms of him giving in to hate and becoming as monstrous as those he opposed. He didn’t care about the collateral damage. The other side of him I find annoying is how he got on Katniss’s back about what she had to do to survive. He had plenty of time to shoot his shot with her but the second she has to fake a romance to survive it’s a betrayal? I also think Peeta and Gale represent concepts of what war does to people. Those who choose hate vs forgiveness and what a traumatized person should strive towards.
I actually love the fact that you don't get to see the "ending" of the rebellion. It makes you realize that she had no business in the rebellion itself, she was used by Coins the same way Snow did in the previous book. She was just a child in the wrong place at the wrong time, she never wanted to instigate anything, she just wanted to survive.
I totally agree with you on the Gale point. Pita was the better man, but it was Coin who killed Prim, and she did it to disable Katniss. She got what she deserved!
I think that's one of messages from the book... The baggage you will have to live on with... Losing your father, friends, family, being hungry , being tortured, overlooked, being in war, your mistakes... man, it's a lot of pain to live with... No one truly won 😅
The Gale thing is a very subtle build up that when you look back on is really indicative of some deeper radicalization. For me it was his willingness to kill ANYONE. ANYONE. Katniss and the resistance just got lucky that he was born in 12, otherwise he would have been like Cato or even Coin all over again.
For me, with Gale, it wasn’t Prim’s death that made me dislike him. It was his manipulation of Katniss and his general disregard for human life because of his hated of the capital. It’s not as apparent the first time reading the series because there’s a lot being thrown at you. But it starts in the first book when he said killing the tributes isn’t any different from hunting game.
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"he's not going to blow up a school is he"
Me laughing psychotically
OKAY BUT HE DIDNT AND I WANT THAT NOTED
@@lynmoore_ a school is just a building with kids in it. the bomb was still dropped on a bunch of kids/first responders- just not while they were in a building. it's about sinking to the same level as the capital and what that makes you in turn.
but yeah for me it's never been the whole Gale vs. Peta etc it was always what Katniss would do for her family, particularly Prim and the evils of both sides with the lengths both Snow and Coin were completely willing to go to and what that makes of a society- replacing one dictator with the same system by a new name.
No, it's totally cool. There were no walls, no building surrounding them, or educators present, just some kids, civilians and medics, nbd.
I absolutely cackled 😂
i fully started cackling insanely and ran to the comments to add my two cents 😂
I will always believe that for Katniss it was never Gale. It was never Peeta. It was always Prim. Everything she does is for Prim. She's the reason she volunteers. She's the reason she tries to win. She's the reason Katniss does anything. She wants the best for the boys, she is upset when they boys are hurt, but everything is for Prim. Which is what makes Prim's death so devastating. I think the love triangle is for marketing and the real story was never about Gale vs. Peeta.
Yes to all you said.
This!!!!!!
Yes! Honestly, it drives me insane that people focus so much on the love triangle when Katniss and Prism's relationship is clearly the main focus of the books. Not many fictional deaths fucked me up as much as Prim. The whole thing was about making sure she would get to live because she is the embodiment of innocence and hope.
@@jacobbraun1243 even if it wasn't marketed, at that time love triangles were everywhere: team Edward vs team Jake from twilight really made it into something the teens would pick up right away as a focal point of the story. Yes it is an important part of the story, but so are many other things that aren't even mentioned in these videos. But when you analyse the plot, what drives it is for sure Katniss and the relationship with her family, specially Prim.
100% agree that prim was katniss’s main focus throughout the series, but i wouldnt disregard the “love triangle” as unimportant since her romances with gale and peeta are still pretty significant to the story. they’re huge insights on how katniss feels throughout the story; gale’s relationship represents katniss’s resentment toward the capitol and her anger vs her development with peeta represents what she really wants in life: peace and kindness. you really see these feelings contrasted when she and gale clash during their visit to district 8, and then when she and peeta meet after she kills coin. obviously the question of “who is katniss gonna marry?!” was never the point but rather what mindset was she gonna choose in the end: revenge or peace?
You're right that Gale is not to blame for how his bomb was used against Prim... But I feel like you're not giving enough weight to Gale designing and advocating for the use of a bomb made to target first responders. The fact that it was rebel EMTs who got blown up instead of Capitol EMTs like Gale wanted doesn't change the morality of it, IMO.
I totally agree. Just to have the idea to create a bomb specifically to kill medics...
But it wasnt like Gale knew that COIN was going to send out medics from 13. Then why not blame Beetee also?
@@theblindbandit85 Who cares where the medics are coming from ? You think the lives of medics from the Capitol are worth less than the lives of medics from 13 ?
He still knew it would be used on first responders (people like Prim and Katniss) he designed it to kill those kind of people. He is disliked for his blatant disregard for the lives of those he didn’t count as “his people”.
@@lovequinn7521This!
Gales moral downfall for me was always that he succumbed to the war mentality. he was willing to sacrifice innocents for the greater good which Peeta didn’t. Gale fell for the ‘us or them’ narrative while Peeta was more focused on shifting the perspective of it all, breaking the cycle. Gale was ready to ‘throw hands’ while Peeta asked ‘why do they want us to throw hands’.
oh and how precisely Gale knew how to emotionally manipulate Katniss, while Peeta respected that she couldn’t reciprocate his feelings, Gale never did.
Gale is the violent approach to conflict resolution, Peeta is more concerned with diplomacy and healing. You might need both to win a war but for a relationship after that level of trauma, I'd like to think I'd choose healing too.
This!! You explained it perfectly
the numbness really matches collins’ themes of the senselessness of war. prim’s death makes people feel like the story was pointless, reinforcing the fact that there’s no winners in war.
Yesss
oh!! yes, absolutely!
“Nobody ever wins the games. Period. There are survivors. There’s no winners.”-Haymitch
Exactly! I think that’s what really fucked me up about the books and is honestly hard to convey in both writing and screen but sitting there thinking about the absolute uselessness of everything you just read is such a mindfuck and a literal perfect way to write about children dying because even though we loved Prim and never wanted anything to happen to her, she just ended up being another faceless death blown up like the hundreds of other kids we were forced to read and watch and it just really does something to you to realize that everyone had their Prim they had to watch die and it’s just tragic that it’s all a metaphor for the actual fucked up real world we live in where this happens everyday 😢
literally him saying ‘why was she even there’ like YES WHY WAS SHE EVEN THERE
No, we're mad at Gale because he DOESN'T CARE IF INNOCENT CIVILIANS DIE. Gale made it crystal clear just how much he was willing to do to win. And killing innocent civilians is NOT okay. He helped create a device to do just that - kill more people - innocent people. This has nothing to do with a "love triangle" - it has to do with the character of the person.
Yes! So true. Even the capital adult citizens still deserve a chance to live. A lot of them are victims themselves of the capital
Gale literally violated article 18 of the Geneva Convention with his ideas. He was committed to committing war crimes.
Disagree. Gale was a victim of war and was tired of watching innocent kids be made to slaughter themselves for entertainment and control. So he adapted the same mentality to win for his cause. Is it morally right? No but factual. Tactics used everyday around the world during war and conflicts kill innocent civilians. Gale is human. If you think he such a bad person then you should feel the same way about Katniss. She knew her presence in those districts could end up with people being killed but she went anyways.
Interesting. My response about Gale breaking article eighteen of the Gen eva con ventio ns was removed. I suppose comments about wa r cr imes are a delicate subject right now. Wonder why that is? Maybe because it's topical, maybe because they're horrific, who can say?
he was both a product of the cruel environment in which he was raised AND was wrong for his willingness to commit war crimes in order to win the war. He was so angry with the capital as a whole that he wasn’t able to “remember who the real enemy (was)” and saw every person with ties to the capital as equally guilty, instead of remembering that it was only the corrupt people who were actually in power that had any control in what went on. Coin is 1000% at fault for Prim’s death, and she is an ACTUAL villain, but Gale is still wrong for helping create bombs that were meant to kill innocents in the first place. I don’t consider Gale a villain, I consider him a cautionary tale.
On not liking Katniss - the smartest thing Suzanne Collins does is to make sure, at every turn, that we know Katniss is a teenager. She's not suddenly wise or mature or knows what to do, because the tragedy is that she's a kid. Not only that, but in this book she's a teenager with severe PTSD. She (and all the other children who become tributes) are robbed of the natural path of growing up, that is completely stolen from her, in different ways. She doesn't get to be a child and play anymore because her father is killed and the system provides them with no safety net. She doesn't get to revel in a first crush because the way to survive was to play up a version of that she didn't even understand. She doesn't get to make mistakes because she's being watched all the time. She doesn't get to have dreams because her future (before the rebellion) was decided for her. The theme of stolen childhood (be it by poverty, by death, by trauma or by the games themselves) is all over this book.
exactlyyyy shes one of my favorite written characters because of how real she feels
Love this comment - very well written! One of the few stories you can hate, sympathize, love, ache for, and learn from in a trilogy where not everything we would like to be explored is laid out, but the soul of which fills in the gaps. Which is rather like trauma recovery in itself.
That’s exactly why she’s my favourite character of all time!
YES!! and thats why i like her, all of this is just rigth
No matter how many times I read it, Finnicks death will always crush me he of all people in this story deserved to finally have a safe life.
Literally broke my heart. Ended my night in 2 seconds
even Suzanne regrets killing him, he was best boy
@@lynmoore_ I was praying for him, like lose a leg or two but come Backkk. And then the team decides to save themselves and you hate every one for next 20 pages. I just remembered how hard it is to watch it on screen, and you know when it is going to happen and it happens and you are shattered. I haven't rewatched Mockingjay movie where he dies, I mean I have watched all other movie twice or thrice and I would directly to the part where she kills Coin (satisfaction) but I can't see my baby die. He has been a favorite ever since Catching Fire, and the things he had to endure in his years at capitol just makes me wanna hold him and never let go. He shouldn't have gone through all this, and even since his young age, he was the youngest victor ever and he had to endure capitol since 14. Also it really doesn't help that Sam Caflin plays him. Like how do you make that character so vulnerable one moment and kill him the next. Still kinda mad at Collins for that.
the fact that he just survives before he dies. I hate Collins for killing him still.
Finnick's death was the hardest for me to digest. Prim was right after. I put Finnick above Prim because he finally seemed like he was ready to live a happy life. Had he decided to be a little selfish and stay in D13 he would still be alive with his family and that BROKE me.
"that's the one thing i had going for me. taking care of your family." HER SISTER IS DEAD BECAUSE OF SOMETHING HE INVENTED AND THAT IS THE LAST THING HE SAYS TO THE WOMAN HE IS IN LOVE WITH??? "does it matter? you'll always be thinking about it." HE DOESNT EVEN APOLOGIZE. PEETA WOULD NEVER.
Gale is fascinating in a metatextual way which is why I don't *hate* him, but I cannot control my *disgust* at his callousness and his entitlement to Katniss' feelings, and his last line was the nail in the coffin - "Does it matter? You'll always be thinking about it." No apology, no empathy, not even an attempt. He treats her loss as just an impediment to their relationship.
He was souring me to him everytime he pushed her to choose between them, and while Peeta did the that one time he apologized and acknowledged theres more important shit going on. Katniss becomes less callous as the story progresses because she realises that even the people of the Capitol exists on spectrums and can change but Gale sees them as inhuman and they see him. He cannot understand what its like to kill people with his own hands because his kill count is impersonal and from a distance, and so the trauma and empathy for the enemy that Katniss, Finnick and Peeta have is weakness to him. Gale is necessary to the story because he's a realistic outcome of this situation, but that doesn't mean I like him
amazingly well put! this is exactly how i feel about him and WHY i feel that way
Peeta never pushed Katniss to choose. He was hurt, and he had every right to be because she actually acted like she cared about him and he didn't know it wasn't real. Of course he felt betrayed, because it was an actual betrayal. Gale felt betrayed whereas they were not together and never acted like they were.
@@ptitepeluche05 Oh I agree, Peeta is rightfully hurt and justifiably taking space. His comments aren't intended to weedle her into a guilt fueled choice, he's simply expressing his hurt and she feels guilty. I do think his apology is key though, because both Gale and Peeta were holding her to something they misunderstood (Gale's assumptions and Peeta's engineered reality) because he recognises that, while it isn't his fault, it isn't Katniss' fault either - they were/are in an impossible situation. Gale can't wrap his head around the fact that said impossible situation isn't over, it cannot be untangled so easily, and that she made him no promises beyond loyalty and care
👏🏻
100% agree, from book 1 Collins set up Gale this way, and while Peeta is no saint there's a difference - everyone grows but somehow Peeta's empathy remains. Real or Not Real
Gale's not irredeemable, but "your actions led to the death of my sister", even if it wasn't entirely intentional, doesn't leave a lot of room for a romance.
I’d fully agree with this
I still think one of the saddest aspects of Peeta's fate was from the first book her didn't want the capitol to turn him into something he is not. Then the capitol does just that in this book. Even with all the healing he has done by the end he is still forever changed. All of the characters are changed. These books really expertly show the cost that war has for everyone on all sides.
Yeah book like this (just like Manacled) that show the realities of war, are so heart breaking
@@lynmoore_you keep bringing up Manacaled. As in the HP fic?
@@ilovemygpsyep, that Manacled. It's devastating. He's read it.
Gale is someone fueled by hate, so much that he lost his humanity. Katniss never wanted a lover or kids, but in Peeta she found someone who understands her trauma and just loved her. Gale was treating katniss like she owed it to him to love him. I really liked Katniss and Joannas friendship in the last book
Yeah, in Catching Fire Gale comes at Katniss for playing up a romance for the cameras, which she had to do to survive. All she can think about is how much danger she was in, how she was going to die, she is battling PTSD, and he butts in with "but what about me!? Do you like me back!?" all the time. Even in Mockinjay, she is even more traumatised and hurt and scared, and he's all like "but you don't even love me back... I'm sad!" Dude. Not the time.
I think everyone’s dislike of gale just comes from his lack of human empathy when it doesn’t affect him. He was able to create a bomb that would kill people who didn’t deserve it, people who could actually benefit the new society after the war ends. He was just so focused on vengeance. It only ever occurred to him that the war crime he created was bad after it killed someone’s he cared about. He even says he doesn’t care if the people are mopping floors for the capital, they are the enemy. Even though those people “mopping the floors” are avoxes who committed “treason” against the capital and got their tongues cut out. Even though he didn’t have control on how prim died, he was still ok with people like prim dying, because that’s how he designed it, and that doesn’t sit right with me.
The issue with the bomb is that no matter how you spin it, it is a war crime. You cannot bomb an area, have medics come in and then bomb those medics. There's no way to spin it. Katniss despises Gale not just because of his hand in Prim's death, but because he didn't care who was going to suffer. That's the side of it she was never able to push away, he did not care who was to be hurt when he created it, when planning it with beetee they even mention drawing in a crowd to help, he knew since the beginning it would be cruel and unjustified, and he stil went with it against Katniss' warnings, and it killed Prim.
I hear you, but my issue is around the logic within this world. Everything listed in the Geneva convention is used by the capitol. “War crimes” don’t exist in Panem and the logic was to fight them with the same tactics that the capitol used. Horrible? Yes 10000%. But I can’t sit back on a high horse about a war that’s districts children in even worse ways
Thank you!
@@lynmoore_ While understandable, it is a theme throughout the books that attempting to fight fire with fire, that is to say, use the same tactics, is not okay. We read about it with the torturing of the prep team, Katniss and her second guessing the Nut avalanche, linking it to the mines in 12, we see it again with the hunger games vote. Is the level of violence understandable from a district rebel perspective, yes ofc, but the book makes it clear that we shouldn't conflate understandable with justifiable. Overall great reaction!
@@lynmoore_ while there may be no laws against war crimes, it doesn't mean they don't exist to the people they happen to. Like Prim. I think that is what she is saying about death being personal.
@@lynmoore_it's genuinely a no-win scenario in that way which i like narratively but ooooo it hurts. i get katniss never wanting anything to do with gale after it all, but i also couldn't fully hate gale for his actions as it is an understandable tactic when you're against a seemingly insurmountable evil that's controlled everything and hasn't valued life at any point. his character is a very realistic character in the scheme of things and while i never really cared for him as a love interest, i find his arc interesting and very tragic as he's still like...17-18? insanity
I wasn't a huge fan of Gale because it always felt that he thought he was owed Katniss almost. He had this plan for their future she never said she wanted and everytime she did something against it he got upset with her for it. Peeta realized he did that to her after the games and apologized but Gale basically apologized to Peeta and never Katniss.
But the love triangle was also never supposed to be this huge thing because like you said with everything happening who cares. An unintended commentary when the media and fans ended up playing up and into the love triangle when the movies came out instead of the more prevalent points of the book.
This!! I felt like his actions were manipulative at times. Also when they were going to run away together a second time, when Katniss wanted other people to join he was so absolute about not including the people Katniss wanted. He couldn't recognize that Katniss cared for Peeta and Haymitch as much as her family and he couldn't understand that.
Also since the very beginning *he* said killing people is almost no different than killing animals. You can see how that opinion kinda builds up to what happens in the 3rd book and Katniss strongly disagreed with that statement. As long as he didn't know these people, it didn't really matter to him if they died and that's what really set him apart from Katniss. Katniss cared not only people she knew about, not only the districts, but people in the capital as well.
YES this this this
the moment that cemented my dislike for him is when he gets annoyed at her implying that peeta should join them as they escape 12 in the second book
i think the reason you are Team Gale is because you are not a woman. Almost every time Gale was mentioned, he was antagonistic with Katniss. Every time Peeta acted out with Katniss, he apologized. He never let his jealousy out on Katniss, unlike Gale, and overall, he was a safe space for her. Gale was way too selfish with Katniss, from the beginning.
Very true, I notice men tend to like Gale more. I saw another reaction before with 2 men and a woman ans the woman hated Gale whereas the men would defend him no matter what he did and it’s interesting.
People make it too much about the love triangle and it’s fascinating, and like you said I do think it is because they aren’t woman and can’t see the red flags that we can. The way he treats Katniss majority of the time just isn’t it, and his character is written as someone that has hints of this at the beginning and then he starts to fall into that anger more and more.
I agree so wholeheartedly. Peeta is such a feeling character who truly attempts to SEE Katniss whereas Gale has a more dominant vibe and tries to convince Katniss of things using logic. As a woman, Peeta’s empathy is so much safer and endearing than Gale’s physical protection
exactly!!! Peeta is for the girlies who get it!
@@jacobbraun1243 I think the reason many men like Gale more is that Peeta has all the traits often seen as traditionally "feminine". He's empathetic, caring, he doesn't force himself on Katniss (emotionally or physically), he is social, good with words, wants to avoid fighting as much as he can, etc.
I suspect that Gale feels more like a traditional manly man, and masculinity and "masculine" traits are often valued more than femininity and "feminine" traits. Despite the fact that none of those traits are in any way actually gendered.
So if you see yourself in Peeta a lot, I guess that means you value empathy and care, or maybe you don't have as much of a gendered view of character traits. Or both. 😊
I feel like the reason why a lot of women don’t like Gale is because he reminds them of one of their guy friends who was interested in them but would get upset at them if they turned him down or dated other guys because he believes he deserves requited love. In my interpretation of Gale, I believe he thought he deserved Katniss. Whereas Peeta fully believed he didn’t deserve Katniss. Peeta would still be grateful even if he saw Katniss one hour a week. Gale practically threw a tantrum when Katniss just wanted to be friends.
Add all of that plus him being connected to Prim’s death makes a lot of people not like him very much 😅
a necessary but perhaps confusing aspect of the books is that, in the end, though katniss definitely does spark a revolution through her bravery and kindness, when it comes to the actual revolutionary fighting in the end, she doesn't do much at all. she is very removed from the front line of a violent uprising and in the end she's even paraded out to symbolically kill snow, even though she was so separated from the plan that won the war. a very interesting look at revolutionary figures/actual revolutionary actions (gale, the districts)
agreed! i once read somewhere that hunger games is the continued emphasis that katniss is an accidental symbol of the rebellion. all she ever wanted to do was protect her little sister; she’s not some mastermind martyr. like she’s just a kid who happens to encompass a degree of tenacity that made her image perfect to manipulate for a greater purpose. that’s why the end makes more sense than her taking over the government like some people wanted her to
The reason why the audience doesn’t see a a lot of the events in the third part of the book is because nobody invited her to these meetings, nobody has these conversations with her, nobody asks her what they should do. Despite being the spark and symbol of the rebellion, she is kept in the dark with nearly everything!!!
"gale is starting to gale pretty hard" is such a great line
"You all hate Gale for creating a bomb that he had no idea how it would be used". Er, he knew how it was gonna be used. It was his idea earlier to lure people in after the first bomb and then blow them up. He just didn't plan for it to be used on his side and Prim to die. He was fine with that horrendous tactic and he was fine with killing kids, which is the first phase to then lure adults in. How are you defending him this hard 😅 Do you also think the inventor of the atomic bomb has no culpability?
Ok, the issue with Gale is not Prim, yeah, some people hate him because of it, but the issue with him is how possessive and mad he gets with every single book. The "I dont know how people can hate this guy when he's going to save the person his loved one loves over him", he's going because he was hoping to get attacked and either getting Peeta 💀 or having an excuse to leave him there and then come back, thinking Katniss will see him as a hero, because he risked his life to try to get Peeta out. He's also the engineer behind a bomb that is a war crime. He didn't know about Prim, but he totally was hoping about getting Capitol people in it to try to help the first few... Also the "I just got rid of the only opportunity i had for you to look at me", meaning that he actually took Prim and her mom out of 12th yeah because they were "his 2nd family", but also because he was expecting Katniss to thank him for it and get some "good guy" points with her. He has always been this guy who plans on the background to try to get more appealing towards her by manipulating the situation, and this is something Suzanne has confirmed, because she was upset about the editorial forcing her to make a love angle, because of Twilight success, that she made him the obvious 🚩.
Eh, Suzanne regrets about Finnick, is the only thing she regrets about the original trilogy (and the fact that she got forced to write a love angle). She knew the whole time about Prim, and that was the point for the whole trilogy.
She was there because she tells Katniss she's been training and working with the medics of 13th and she was hoping to get deployed to help people. Coin is indeed the one who killed her.
Eh... Plutarch Heavensbee actor passed mid recording of the movies, so they used another beloved character instead.
And from Catching Fire to Mockingjay there is a 3 months time skip. The whole trilogy is a year and a half.
Yes. Exactly.
you put it all so eloquently you deserve all the likes, thank you.
gale shows no remorse even in their final conversation. he shows his true colours through the whole of this last book, and even his colours are painted 100% by the system, we see different colours in the character of peeta.
gale is a victim of the war and suffering they went through but he let his humanity on the side and even though I can understand it, I cannot like him.
@@luisfilipepereira9703 Yeah, agreed. I see a lot of excuses for Gale to want to kill innocent people and non-combatants in these comments. "He's been through a war! He wants revenge!" okay, so? Katniss and Peeta weren't sleeping through this war, and they're not chomping at the bit to kill civilians and commit genocide (remember Gale wanting to suffocate the entire population of district 2?), but Gale is. Yes, he's been through hell, that doesn't make it okay to murder children.
Gale went through a lot of trauma, but so did everybody else. I can understand his reasoning, but that doesn't make his actions okay, he is not a good person.
that convo between Peeta and Gale while hiding at Tigris place reeked of the tent scene in Twilight between Edward and Jacob lol
Also Katniss says yes to the hunger games and says “for prim” as a code to Haymitch. They always understood each other and had a similar way of thinking and it’s her way of asking if coin is responsible for prim. He agrees on that, and on the idea that Coin will be no better than Snow.
To me the fact that the capital destroyed Peeta to the point he tried to kill Katniss is so sad. It's like they killed the person but left the body to do the worst thing Peeta could ever do. After it he will go on to recover little by little, but the Peeta we like from the first two books is not there anymore, he is something else.
ESPECIALLY after the first book with ‘i want to be more than just a piece in their games, if i’m going to die i want to die as myself’
Peeta is definitely the strongest character mentally. And i think it's really sad that the highjacking didn't give him the time to mourn his family.
so, personally, my dislike for gale actually started in catching fire: when katniss offers him to escape and includes peeta in her plan and he gets angry at her over caring for him due to jealousy and how he feels about peeta and ostensibly his family. because (to me) he sees katniss and her family as 'his', kind of in the way that animals see their pack, and peeta as an outsider who no only he doesnt care for but katniss cares for him, and he has a connection to her he doesnt have (their shared experiences in the games)
meanwhile, in contrast, peeta is pretty clear in the arena of quarter quell that he understands that gale is important for katniss, and he'd never make her choose himself over gale: he recognises she cares for him the same or more that katniss cares about peeta, and he gets it, because katniss is a protector, and it just means to him that if katniss cares about him then do does him
then in mockingjay gale is pretty immediate in becoming a soldier. a war tactician and a planner for this rebellion. he slowly became so detached, and is clearly willing to give up So Many Things in order to achieve what HE thinks is right and correct. and he will follow it, and follow through u til the end, sacrifices be damned. he's willing to do one bomb to cause harm, and yhen plan that it will bring in a crowd of others to help those who are hurt and then bomb that crowd -medics, rescue units, not military personal. even katniss mentions at one point that it was gale who was good at traps, even when they were just hunting.
so, to me, my dislike for gale started a lot more personal, and then it got worse with this book.
as an extra, after finishing the video, i think the reason you dpnt dislike gale is because you're seeing him from the view of a man seeing another man trying to "protect the girl he loves"
most women i know dislike him because he feels like a guy who thinks katniss owes him loving him, and who only cares about others when it means it will make him look good towards her (him going to save peeta to get nice guy points; him not caring about who the bomb would kill until it killed prim 😅)
@@gatangela2008 Yeah, any time Gale does something for Katniss, it's mentioned by lynmoore as if that somehow means that Katniss MUST like him back now. As in, I did this thing for you, now you must want to date me, and like... No. That's not how that works. You can't buy someone's love by doing things for them.
@@AnnekeOosterink yup. gale says it best at the fucking nasty line he says to katniss when she wakes up in 13 after prim dies "it's all i had going for me, taking care of your family" like HUH? SO YOU WERE DOING ALL THAT JUST TO "HAVE THAT GOING FOR YOU"???
anyways yea
Gale did not intend to design those bombs to kill Prim - but it’s the fact he designed it with Beetee to kill someone else’s Prim is what makes him trigger happy. If Prim wasn’t there, there would be no remorse. But since Prim was there, of course he feels guilty.
I get your dislike of the ending/lack of payoff in regards to the war ending while Katniss is unconscious. I will say though it does sort of fit Suzanne Collins main idea of Katniss not actually being a rebel leader, just a teenage figurehead and a pawn used for propaganda. All of this started because she wanted to protect Prim, but with Prim dead she didn’t care about the war or its outcome. Definitely a lack of payoff for those wanting an action filled finale, but fitting for who Katniss is as a character.
Here’s why the Peeta/Gale thing is important: it symbolizes a larger message of the books. A lot of THG deals with how to respond to the atrocities of the world: do you respond with anger, resentment, and violence like Gale? Or do you respond with hope, empathy, and radical optimism like Peeta? I don’t dislike Gale for who he is, I know Peeta is the better option for what he symbolizes. Peeta goes through hell and still fights through it for love. Gale goes through hell and responds by bombing children. The love triangle is the way the narrative frames the message of the book.
Apparently, Susan Collins said she wrote this in honor of her parents who were survivors of I think world war II. The idea is that war is not heroic as much as we try to make it in the moment. All you can do is make the best of what you've got. Be like Peeta. That's the way to peace.
I thought her dad was a vietnam vet
what’s important to note is that suzanne always chooses names with meaning intended. coin was always meant to be the other side of snow’s coin. they’re the same.
For me Katniss not really being witness to or even really relevant in the fall of the capital is actually really clever because I think it highlights the fact the ultimately she is nothing more than the spark she is a propaganda tool but once they dont need her for propaganda she irrelevant she was just being used first by the capital and then by 13 and in the end it back fires on both sides, also I personally agree the fandom over hates Gale, but I also believe he is his own downfall because he is willing to stoop to the same level as the capital, its his idea to murder everyone in the mine, and it his idea to target children and hurt them as means of controlling/killing the adults who are the real pray which is ultimately what the hunger games are so him killing Prim is on him and not on him because obviously he would never target prim but he was happy for his bombs to target other innocent children, I think the strength of the series is that it shows that even when the revolution is just people on the just side can become just as violent and cruel as the oppressors in different ways and it leads to. sting more than traumatised people, the love triangle aspect to me is overplayed in now we discuss it compared to how much of the book it takes up, but Peeta becoming brainwashed and even in the epilogue still unable to tell what is real and not real is so sad because that was his power the thing that he was best at was lying and talking and charming people and the capital stole that and also they did the one thing he didn't want from the first book they made him into a piece in there games they made him into the violent killer they always wanted, the final book isn't satisfying to read. because there is no happy ending but I think that makes for a better story and a better allegory to real life.
you are right on point with Katniss' not being responsible for the Capitol's downfall, she was a spark but it would have given a teenager too much credit - the rebellion had been in place well before Katniss came into the picture. Katniss' story was about Prim and wow if that wasn't such a necessary death. Coin would never had been revealed - she made that huge mistake. And wasn't that stated, by Snow? That last bomb wasn't even necessary everyone knew Capitol was lost but Coin still acted ruthless and revealed as the worst of two evils. I didn't hate Gale, but there was no coming back from that doubt
I think my anger at Gale after the bomb was more so about how much he didn't seem to care about who the bomb would kill when it was originally discussed and then it killed Prim and he was like "oh maybe that was a bad choice" like no crap it was a bad choice! Other than that I didn't hate him I was just always more in love with Peeta and who he was as a person
i feel like for the gale thing he still purposefully built a bomb with the intent to kill children
The intent was to kill medics and helpers. Not children. It's still horrible though.
@@ptitepeluche05honestly if anything building a bomb to kill/target medics is WORSE yk
@@ptitepeluche05 Ohh okay
Gale creating the bomb isn’t the problem. From the moment she comes home in the 2nd book he pressures her to make things romantic between them and is wounded and guilt trips her over what happened between her and Peeta in the games.
He never indicated he had feelings for her until after she became unintentionally entangled with Peeta in order to survive and he provides NO UNDERSTANDING or support to her in the fallout. Instead he’s moody and pushes her to choose.
Meanwhile Peeta does have actual hurt feelings and APOLOGIZES for getting upset with her because he knows it’s not fair to hold her accountable for what happened during the games. He doesn’t pressure her. He loves her unconditionally and doesn’t make her feel like she has to return it.
With Gale it feels like it’s all or nothing. If she won’t love him the way he wants her to, then he will cut her off. That’s scary for her and puts her in the position of having to to choose because she doesn’t want to lose him.
Gale is toxic and the red flags are the problem.
Well, I agree about Gale pushing Katniss and showing lots of red flag, but I would argue Gale being okay with murdering innocent civilians, and advocating for genocide twice (District 2 and all the Capitol people even the people who mop the floors are enemies to him), is a pretty big problem. It tells us that he doesn't care that innocent children will die, he doesn't care about killing them himself, he doesn't value human lives, he doesn't want peace, he wants revenge. He's not a good person.
And while his want for revenge is understandable (as in, I understand how he got where he is), it doesn't make any of his actions okay. Or words.
And the final red flags someone else pointed out, he doesn't say sorry after Prim's death. Not for being the one who invented the bomb, not for the fact that Katniss lost her sister even, he only says that now he no longer has a chance to get with Katniss. And like. What!? Who says that?
i think Katniss not being there for the revolution is because, in the end, the revolution wasn’t about her. she was the mockingjay but she wasn’t special, and definitely not a military mastermind who really knew what it took to storm the capitol, so it makes sense she would actually just end up wounded in battle. she was a symbol and, more than anything, a teenager who was in way over her head
The voting for the symbolic hunger games scene is SO MUCH BETTER in the movie. There is so much you see going on in her head and she talks to Haymitch with just a look. It’s just so much better in the movie.
I never hated Gale, and still don't. I will say that Katniss ended up with who she needed to help heal. Her dandelion rather than more fire.
100%
Small note: the Chilean miners did not die! They were rescued in a very impressive operation (source: I am Chilean and I still remember this too hahah)
weon quedé como... de qué está hablando, si vivieron los 33 jajajja
@@Abbyssmajajaja pensé lo mismo. Yo no vengo diciendo “estamos bien, los 33” hace años por nada
recuerdo esto perfecto!!! en las noticias yo súper chica desde méxico viendo, fue algo increíble
i think the fact that we don’t see the wrap up of the war makes sense. prim was the main person katniss wanted to protect, and prim died anyway. this is katniss’s POV and even if she was conscious to see all of that stuff happen in real time, i doubt she would even care or be mentally present enough to detail it to us. what does this new panem matter to her, when the person she was fighting for isn’t there to see it? although, i understand how it can be frustrating as a reader not to see the fall out of everything! 14:32
through the entire series katniss cared about prim more than the rebellion. she did everything for prim. of course when prim dies anyway the rebellion doesn’t matter
YES!! ultimately this story is about katniss and prim, and if prim is gone nothing matters. realistically, i think suzanne may have just wanted to spare children reading these books from political talk and long recovery scenes where katniss was spaced out and mostly unconscious. it also shows how she was never truly a part of the rebellion, and once her propaganda wasn’t needed anymore they abandoned her.
For the Gale thing, I haven’t read the books so I don’t know the original intention, but in the movies it plays that the idea of how the bomb worked was planned by Gale, and although Prim wasn’t intended to be victim to it, the idea of luring people in seeking aid and then killing them is an attack on innocent civilians and not the enemy, which is disgusting no matter who it involves
I will say, what you said about how what Gale did “only matters because it’s Prim” is kinda the point. The two stage bomb system that Gale invented is a literal war crime, something Katniss pointed out when it got brought up the first time in District 13. But, Gale didn’t care about the gross waste of human life that the bomb would cause, he had too much of an eye-for-an-eye mentality against the Capitol to see things with that level of clarity. The only reason he feels any remorse at all over what he did is because Prim got caught in the crossfire. He only cared because the situation negatively affected him personally. Not to mention he was a complete dick to poor Katniss about it after the fact, and made Prim’s death about his relationship with Katniss. You’re right that Gale was manipulated by Coin, but that doesn’t absolve him of all guilt here.
Im so glad that im watching someone react to these books. It feels validating especially because i was told I overreacted. To this day, i tell myself that Finnick is okay and living a lovely life with Annie
And they had a couple more of kids and enjoyed the ocean and had a LONG life
The way I SOBBED in a McDonald's parking lot after reading Prim's death for my bf to tell me to chill 😔
Here is kinda why i never was team Gale:
I felt like his actions were manipulative at times. Like that kiss in the 3rd book, he purposely looked hurt so Katniss would kiss him.
Also when they were going to run away together a second time, when Katniss wanted other people to join he was so absolute about not including the people Katniss wanted. He couldn't recognize that Katniss cared for Peeta and Haymitch as much as her family and he couldn't understand that. Like i get that it's going to be very difficult to bring so many people with him, but he didn't understand why that to Katniss they were important to her and that she simply can't abandon people for her wellbeing.
Also since the very beginning *he* said killing people is almost *no different than killing animals*.
You can see how that opinion kinda builds up to what happens in the 3rd book and Katniss strongly disagreed with that statement. As long as he didn't know these people, it didn't really matter to him if they died and that's what really set him apart from Katniss. Katniss cared not only people she knew about, not only the districts, but people in the capital as well.
I can't remember if it was in the first book, but it was in the first movie. When Katniss is talking with Gale when she has just volunteered, he tells her she knows how to hunt. She says she knows how to hunt animals, and at that point Gale says there's no difference. Those weren't even Capitol kids he could feel resentful about, those were kids from other Districts. If Gale had been in the games, he would have had way more active kills than Katniss did. Including potentially Rue. He is willing to completely distance himself from empathy in order to achieve his goals, and in the end that makes him one and the same as the Capitol.
The children in the Capitol are not guilty. Many adults in the Capitol are capable of goodness and weren't part of the oppression, as seen in Cinna or Effie or the prep team or the propo team. In fact the vast majority of the Capitol weren't directly involved in the oppression. It was just a few rich, powerful people pulling the strings. Let me ask bluntly - would you say the entirety of the US population should pay for the damage done to the many countries the US military has decimated, that too with their lives?
The issue with Gale is that he is more than willing to perpetuate the cycle of violence. He would rather have revenge than peace. Which is what started the Games in the first place: it was an act of revenge by the Capitol against the Districts. They justified the violence they enacted on innocent kids because the Districts had enacted violence on them in the past. Someone needed to break the cycle, and Katniss recognised it.
Also, just a note on you finding the ending emotionally uneventful. At the end of the day, that's how real life revolutions are. There isn't a hero, there isn't a chosen one, it's a collective effort and one person being MIA isn't going to sabotage the whole plan, especially not someone who is basically just the mascot. Every single person in 13 lost loved ones, it's not something Katniss suffered uniquely. You should watch the video on THG by Just Write about this, it's really good (there's no prequel spoilers in it).
You said this so much more eloquently than I.
Ok so why I like Peeta more… to be clear I don’t hate Gale but I don’t like him either. The first time I read the series I could not put my finger on why I didn’t like him. After a couple more times and getting older… Gale acted like Katniss owed him a relationship. Yes everyone assumed they would be together before she went into the games. But when she returned Gale expected things to go back to the way they were while Katniss was truly suffering from PTSD. Gale always wanted to pressure Katniss to choose and made her feel guilty she didn’t know what she wanted. Gale is not a bad guy as you have pointed out, he did great things but Katniss was fighting to survive and made every conversation come back to him wanting her. Peeta made it clear that he has always loved her and will always love her but does not expect anything from her. Peeta made her feel safe and secure while she was healing. Katniss wrapped it up perfectly in the end… Gale is fire and she has enough of that herself. Peeta is the calm that she needs.
Yes many hate Gale because of Prim and that is all complicated. Which is the point, who do we blame for war crimes… the one who makes the decision, the soldiers, the bomb makers?
I love that. Peeta is the water than cooled Katniss’ flames, thats what she needed
I remember an analysis I enjoyed said peeta and gale are the two sides of who katnis is as a character.
Another thing on Gale, if you look at his interactions with Katniss, you’ll notice that they don’t actually have all that much in common, they only ever discuss survival and hunting (battle strategies can also come under this too). Two things that aren’t the best foundation for a lasting relationship. Mockingjay begins to strip away those interests when they’re in 13, and after that they start drifting away from each other, Katniss outright says it. They’re not gonna rely on each other for survival forever and in that situation it’s all you can think about and everything else comes second to putting food on the table. Their values don’t align at all and I worry for what kind of person Katniss would have become if she ended up with a character that ruthless. Chapters 14 and 15 were a very defining moment for him. Gale is another victim of the system but he let it consume him, and while there was no way he could fully understand what Katniss went through in the Games, at no point has he even tried. He’s been very focused on himself, though he dresses it up as concern and protective behaviour, at least in my opinion, it’s hard to get a full grasp on his character because the book is first person and we’re not in his head. Yet, he may be an adult but for me he’ll always be a boy playing soldier
I read Mockingjay 13 years ago, and I still remember how I fell apart when Finnick died. What a gut punch.
All the way through this video I was just thinking of this quote:
'Nothing ever ends poetically. It ends and we turn it into poetry. All that blood was never once beautiful. It was just red.' - Kait Rokowski
Suzanne called the medias obsession with the love triangle over the actual main themes and events happening around it, and most people (ESPECIALLY at the HG height) totally missed it
I think its more devastating when you realise. Katness did it ALL for prim. Not herself, not the boys, her sister. Prim was the reason everything happened and when she dies it felt like it was all for nothing. And gale having even the smallest part in that? I myself dont think Id have the fortitude to forgive that.
I think my personal biggest issue with gale is he truly believed the ends justified the means. He was willing to kill innocent civilians in order to get to first responders, was willing to sacrifice everyone in the nut to take it down, and he would have 100% agreed to another hunger games. His character is extremely nuanced, but he always seems to blame Katniss for her own survival
The thing about the "love triangle" is that it's not really about romance, but about themes. Thematically, Katniss has to choose Peeta, because he represents hope and being able to move forward. Gale represents the opposite, and it's not what Katniss needs.
I hate this book. It broke my heart when I was 13. That is just evil, Suzanne. I was a child!!!
But I also love it, so... I hope you love it/hate it as well!
I think that’s an accurate description of what you’re watching 😂
6:27 THANK YOU I feel like no one else had an appropriate reaction to this, I’m screaming about it and everyone else is like “oh yeah of course” 😵💫
I love that she left out seeing all the stuff that happens while Katniss is healing at the end and that we don’t get to see any of it. Imagine being her? You fought so hard and then nothing. You get nothing but the hollow aftermath of war. Sure your side “won” but all you feel is the cost. Absolutely brilliant writing. So many wounded in so many wars have experienced that same exact thing and I think it truly speaks to her intentions in what she wants the audience to feel. The true cost of living through a war even in victory. Pain.
"Of course it's team gale, of course it's team gale." oh just wait and see my friend just wait and see
Excited to see you react to this one! The twists and the end is just *chef’s kiss*
3:40 EXCUSE ME WHAT I WONT STAND FOR THIS MISINFORMATION!/hj I’m Chilean and the miners were very famously not crushed and killed, they’re fine, we saved them. I might have been 10 when it happened but I remember watching the rescue live on tv
I remember my first time reading this and being devestated for Katniss. Before Peeta is rescued her guilt and grief over him is so consuming, she misses him and wants him there more than i think she ever thought. And when he and the others are finally rescued, she watches this beautiful and touching moment with Finnick an Annie, and we know in her mind she is so conflicted. Part of her wants to hug and kiss him, part of her is terrified he will hate her or blame her for leaving him behind, she wonders will he still love her, will he still be her friend? She misses her friend so so much... and then he attacks her. Her heart breaks. She learns whats happened to him. And after that she becomes cold, hostile, desperate to be anywhere that he isnt because she cant stand to see how different he is because of his torture and the guilt and grief she feels, and she cant stand to see him look at her with hate and disgust and fear. So she throws herself into the 'war' and desperately wants to end snow for all he has done, for all he has taken.... she pulls away from peeta because her grief is too much to bear. Shes 17. She has no idea what to do, and her coping mechanism has always been action. Hunt, barter, care for her family. Fight, survive.
I'm surprised to see a POV disliking her or not caring about what happened to Peeta/ between her and Peeta, honestly.
This was the first book I actually threw when I got to prims end. This whole series was to save prim and then it didn't matter. Plus we hate Gale because that plan was gales. The bombs and the plan.
HE SHOULD DIE
GALE SHOULD BE DEAD NOT PRIM OR FINJICK
You: I really like finnick
Me: OH NO
I really love Boggs, he's one of my favorites. The elevator scene in the book while Katniss was with Boggs and the whole "We just saw Finnick Odair in his underwear." is hilarious I love that so much.
finnick’s story will always break my heart. to have a character go through everything that the capitol put him through at 14 years old only to die at 24 after almost making it out will never not hurt
Lynmoore: I just want something happy. Like a wedding? why not a wedding?
Me: oh you sweet summer child
In case you were curious, Suzanne has said that prim dying was always going to happen. And that makes it a brutal but well thought out ending for me. The whole narrative is based on Katniss volunteering to save Prim, and in the end she still dies.
The thing that sets Katniss away from Gale forever, and probably the reader, is that he succumbs to the Capitol’s way. The end does not justify the means.
That double trigger bomb was Gale’s orignal idea, not Betee’s.
Katniss, as a child of the Hunger Games has seen firsthand the horror of innocent deaths. (That’s why the reader is surprised at her voting I for the capitol children HG)
That vote was a strategy to get access to her weapon by appearing to agree with Coin - so she could *kill* Coin.
The feeling of loss regardless of who won was the whole point
“Gale is starting to Gale… pretty hard”😂
I never really liked gale, since the first moment cause i felt he was a little old to be acting like such a child, but in this particular case I know what you mean. The first readthrough i also was like ummm well maybe is not so henious I mean is it really that horrible? and moved on. But then i watched the movie, his intent and then read it again and understood his context. He was aware of everything, having disscused this plans with Beetee and he was in close coalition with Coin, he didnt like her but he respected her drive to beat fire with fire. My hatred for him was that he knew and WANTED innocent people to be hurt, the first round of bombs was always meant to kill and maime innocents and peacekeepers alike, ant the second was always meant to kill first responders. It doesnt really matter that it was Prim, its the intent. What does matter in the matter of Prim is that he never apologizes, he never even admits it was his bomb when he KNEW it was, he gaslights her into putting the responsability of getting over it in her hands and he takes 0 accountability, he never visits her in the hospital cause he rather hide than face her, cause he KNOW what he did and he much rather sweep it under the rug just saying "Does it matter? You'll always be thinking about it" as if it was her fault that she was emotionally closed off, as if it was her fault that she was never going to get over it. He never even TRIES to apologize, to seem genuine to tell her that she was right that he was wrong, that his actions were terrible NOTHING, just I lost so it no longer matters and I'll leave now and not care anymore about you or your family like??@$%#.
And i mean that literally, he never even mentions her mom, says nothing about them or prim or effie or anyone that even mattered to her, hos response is that caring for her family was the one thing he had going for him (as opposed to peeta) like... i dont think she could give any less of a shit rn about her love life when she is mourning the death of her sister. why do you pit yourself like that? is just shit and not the moment to be talking about this, context clues Gale.
My dislike wasnt the bomb, it was his intent. My hatred for his character wasnt the fact that Prim died, it was that he acted as it never even mattered cause he had lost to peeta, when it had NOTHING to do with him and EVERYTHING todo with katniss lossing her sister when it was the only person that ever mattered to Katniss since before gale.
I think the best way to experience this story is to not focus solely on the love triangle. I think focusing on the love triangle (mainly because of the movies’ marketing) is really detrimental to the story, since it is NOT about that. It is a part of it, yes, but this story is about the suppression and dehumanization of groups in the population and eventually about the ramifications of war (mainly on the individual). Reducing the story to ‘just another YA dystopia with a love triangle’ takes away so much of the messaging and reading experience.
The WHOLE thing started because Katniss was trying to protect her sister. All her struggle the meaning of all of it to her is to keep her family safe. It also serves to ground us n not get caught up in the fake glory of war or the propaganda to uplift by Coin's n Plutarch's side. Prim STILL dies. Regardless of everything that Katniss did trying SO HARD to prevent it. This renders Katniss' whole fight pointless. To her at least. This masterfully establishes the despair of war. What Mashashi Kishimoto failed to do with the ridiculous Itachi and Sasuke Uchiha massacre-revenge plot.
"I'm going to bed, this is bullshit." we've all been there
Gale was only sorry because it was Prim, it was Katniss’ Prim. Had it been a different innocent 13 year old medic, he wouldn’t have batted an eye. But because it was Prim, he was sorry. Gale will always trade innocent life to succeed and win. That is why we hate him.
Friendly reminder about this thing: “That was one of the first questions I asked [Suzanne Collins] when we sat down: ‘Did you always know that [Prim] was going to die?’ And she said, ‘Oh yeah, of course, that’s the whole point.’” :)))
I’m so looking forward to your Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes reaction!
Like others have said, it's not just the bomb. It's how Gale treats Katniss, and it's how he doesn't even comfort it apologize for Prim's death, the only thing he's concerned about is that the only thing he has going for him (for Katniss to choose him) is that he looked after he family. All the time he's just trying to get her to choose him while being a red flag. Sure he didn't choose how the bomb was used but he chose to address Prim's death as losing him his chance with Katniss.
Also you're supposed to feel numb and lost at the end, that's kind of the point of the theme of war.
It's so great to see how these books have even more meaning now than when they first came out, they give so much perspective into an issue that's more relevant now than ever, on how senseless wars are and how they can turn someone who means well into the same monster that they are fighting, thank you for these videos! Looking forward to see more
I liked what you said about the ending because it was never going to be satisfying. It’s bittersweet and numbing and I think the author really delivered showing the realities of the war they survived. There are no winner just survivors.
The first time I read this book I also focused on the love triangle, but the second (and third) time I read it i can only focus on the social commentary of it all. Once you get over the top layer that focus on the relationships you get into the deeper meaning of the story, which is all about the senselessness of war and people’s hunger for power on the backs of the people they control
I think so many of the points you raised that you didn't like are the point of the books. It isn't satisfying and no one really wins and it is pointless! They go through all of this and what are they left with. Also similarly with the romance, it isn't a main point really and I think is played up more in the films. Gale maybe isn't as bad as he could be, but he does prove himself to not care about human lives if it will win the war. Also he is just a red flag in an understated way with how he is with Katniss throughout, and I think you see that more as an adult
I mean, first Gale wanted to trap a bunch of people in a mountain to slowly suffocate and then created a bomb to target first responders... Ik we're in a different universe here, but that's pretty fucked up. "Enemies" or not 🤷🏼♀️
For the Gale thing, during all the books Gale doesn’t really care about Katniss. He cares about the idea of Katniss being in his future as a romantic partner. Yes, their relationship it did start off as a survival need between both families. But he didn’t care for her feelings all the long and kind of hinted/pushed the idea of a romantic partnership, while she had always made it clear she can’t think about a future like that because of the need of survival of her and her family is a day to day task. When she brings that fact up, he frames his wants under the guise of it’s for our survival that all, while saying he wants a family of his own as well. And that’s when she made it clear, she had no wish to have children in poverty while being fully threatened to be killed for fun by the capitol. He was like well it’s a big IF if it happens but I want kids. He is also ok with killing people, who like Katniss, is affairs of the repercussions of the capitol to advance the rebellion to the capitol. Which goes against what the rebellion propaganda is saying, we are all neighbors and the capitol is killing us or setting us up against each other so they remain untouched. He is a very well written character that has depth like all the other characters, I just don’t like him and think he’s boring to listen to, and don’t think he thinks of Katniss as her own person but more of a trophy/extension of his capabilities.
Part of the reason Gale is blamed for Prim's death and the bombing (to me) is that Coin got her comeuppance when Katniss turned and shot her instead of Snow, but Gale survived. I also think that because the books are in first person, a reader gets the sense that Katniss would never truly be able to forgive Gale for that, even though it wasn't directly his fault, and takes on those feelings. That being said, I doubt Gale ever really forgave himself for it either.
15:07 I think the issue is not that he was at fault for prim’s death, but that seeing gale’s bomb and plan come to fruition in reality made it concrete to katniss how different their perspectives were in terms of what is and is not acceptable to achieve your goal. gale is pretty clear that he’s okay with innocent noncombatants dying if it means he rebellion succeeding, while katniss is much more hesitant about what is too far. she believes gale’s perspective is the slippery slope to justifying something like the hunger games - collective punishment.
she started to learn that she and gale had widely differing moral stances on this, but seeing the actual real-life manifestation of gale’s viewpoint in the 2-stage bombs dropped on innocent capitol children/civilians made it CONCRETE and unavoidable. seeing it happen in real life made that moral divide clear to her.
that’s how I always read it at least.
i think the main argument about your opinion of gale after the bombing (and I'm going off of the movie lines and order because i cant remember if they're lines from the book atm) is that earlier when gale suggest the dual round bombings is that he doesn't care who they are and "even if they're sweeping the floors of the capitol they're still the enemy". So his intent for the bombs weren't only to kill children, but to make sure the children were dead, that parents, other citizens, soldiers, and medics (which ended up being prim) were all still killed because no matter what they are his enemy. so even if he didn't plan that they would happen there, or didn't know who would be killed, people really just don't like his sentiment behind the creation, and its really offputting to hear from someone who tried to save as many people as possible from his over district from similar bombings. imo if this really was his feeling of war over the entire book series, he would've died in district 12 because he would've never gave up on getting people out.
„does a single happy thing happen in the book“
me after intensively thinking about that question for 5 minutes: NO. it does not
Finnick and Annie get married. Does that count?
Gale is so blinded with the desire to be a hero, a rebel and a fighter that he doesn't care about the people that will die for his bombs until Prim dies. And when it happens he doesn't even apologize, like... I get Katniss knows he didn't mean to, and that Coin manipulated everything, but Katniss also knows that Gale wanted this war more that he wanted to protect her family. So when the last thing he says to her is "I lived to save them" and doesn't even apologize, it tastes like a lie, like everything was a lie, he didn't care much about her family, he only wanted her to desire him. And now that's not possible, so he just brushed it under the carpet and left to have his life somewhere else. The reason we are team Peeta, is because Peeta cares so much for Katniss that her safety and the safety of her family were more important to him than being a rebel. So I think Suzanne slipt them apart because she knew that if Peeta was there at 13 he would have ran away with Katniss without hesitation.
you got exactly the reaction that suzanne wanted. the romance is numbed because war is loss and pain, and it sticks to you forever
Sadboi Gale was so irritating when he was having issues with Finnick as well. I get his jealousy of Peeta but Finnick? After being an as* to Katniss as a friend and her finding someone who can actually understand what she’s going through?
Then the war crimes, he isn’t excused along with Coin, Plutarch and Beetee. I know people die in war, but the way they went about it is just as bad as Snow bombing a hospital. I don’t hate him, I disliked him for a mix of things but more because he’s too freaking self-absorbed and his actual last words to Katniss was still making Prim’s death about himself.
i think that whole chunk of stuff that happens while katniss feels unconscious is so clever bc it’s like all this big stuff happens and we feel so disconnected and it’s just like now what??? that’s what she’s feeling too
It wasn't that he "made the bomb", it was that it was HIS IDEA.
The downfall of Gale is that his bravery and gallantry turn into revenge lust - a desire for destruction violence and death out of anger which is legit. But Katniss suffered both sides of a war and turned further away because he couldn’t see humanity through a desire for revenge. (She said he was fire she didn’t need) And then the one main weapon he created that she warned him against killed her sister and so she was done. Prim was her reason for being and it wasn’t gales fault, but the trauma split them into two different spectrums. Can’t wait to see you watch the movies!!!
Gale didnt know how the double bomb would be utilized but the fact he helped produce it is the problem. My reason to think gale is beyond forgiveness is for how he handeled The Nut. Katniss herself says it, but the fact that he is a miner who is was willing to condemn a mountain full of fellow miners to the fate of his and katniss's fathers is beyond reprehensible. He fundamentally lacks empathy, not to mention how transactionally he views his relationship with katniss. He does nice things for her and expects her to love him for it and is toxic when she doesn't love him the way he wanted her to
I think for me, my issue with Gale is more his accusations in the first book about her loving Peeta and being upset with how she had to survive. And also that he was so focused on jealousy when the girl he loved was fighting for her life. and even if she had fallen in love with peeta at that point, I iwsh he could've been happy for her, but also he was a teenager. I think my issue with the third book is that he was okay with bombing medical personal, and i dont remember if he said anything about it being used on children. I think he just let his anger and violence take over everything I did and when I was younger I was angry about that and now I pity him more, minus the bombing medical personal thing.
I’m glad you came around on the ending. I think it’s very satisfying to see Katniss s take ownership and kill Coin. RIP Finnick you deserved everything
I don’t think Gale had anything to do with planning Prims death. Creating the bomb( and planning to bury people alive with a cave in) are symptoms of him giving in to hate and becoming as monstrous as those he opposed. He didn’t care about the collateral damage. The other side of him I find annoying is how he got on Katniss’s back about what she had to do to survive. He had plenty of time to shoot his shot with her but the second she has to fake a romance to survive it’s a betrayal?
I also think Peeta and Gale represent concepts of what war does to people. Those who choose hate vs forgiveness and what a traumatized person should strive towards.
I actually love the fact that you don't get to see the "ending" of the rebellion. It makes you realize that she had no business in the rebellion itself, she was used by Coins the same way Snow did in the previous book. She was just a child in the wrong place at the wrong time, she never wanted to instigate anything, she just wanted to survive.
I totally agree with you on the Gale point. Pita was the better man, but it was Coin who killed Prim, and she did it to disable Katniss. She got what she deserved!
I think that's one of messages from the book... The baggage you will have to live on with... Losing your father, friends, family, being hungry , being tortured, overlooked, being in war, your mistakes... man, it's a lot of pain to live with... No one truly won 😅
The Gale thing is a very subtle build up that when you look back on is really indicative of some deeper radicalization. For me it was his willingness to kill ANYONE. ANYONE. Katniss and the resistance just got lucky that he was born in 12, otherwise he would have been like Cato or even Coin all over again.
For me, with Gale, it wasn’t Prim’s death that made me dislike him. It was his manipulation of Katniss and his general disregard for human life because of his hated of the capital. It’s not as apparent the first time reading the series because there’s a lot being thrown at you. But it starts in the first book when he said killing the tributes isn’t any different from hunting game.