you know dude, saw ur video the other day. I get u have a fam to support. I flip burgers, and have a 3 yr old by myself full time. I think u could do even better by doing what u say u would like to do more, but go all in with ur ballz in. Dont half ass it. try it, even as a side project. Cuz i can tell that you would like to talk about things i would be more interested in, as would my musician buds. I dont mean like a guitar channel or anything, just a little more about the actual music, less like a magazine
I was in my late 20's to early 30's during the MySpace era and I remember that scene getting hate because the bands got popular online and not the "real" way. It's the same thing people whine about with being TikTok famous. Also people didn't like how the scene kids looked but the same arguments could be made about the juggalos or the slipknot fans. People just like to be judgemental, gatekeeping assholes 😂
You Didn’t Listen To Me When I Suggested What Killed Post-Grunge I know you made a Is Post Grunge the Worst Genre but I Think a proper What Killed Post-Grunge needs to be Made
The biggest reason a lot of people hated metalcore, was briefly touched on but not emphasized enough. It oversaturated the market. With MySpace and social media in general being pretty new, there were 1000 trash bands for every decent band. Burnout occurred before people had a chance to really digest it.
Oh yeah, true… there was metalcore bands popping up everywhere. Every neighborhood in every English speaking country had a metalcore band who wrote breakdown and had a MySpace page.
Nah, it was that whiney wimpy vocals followed by scream and back to just spoken word. I absolutely can’t stand it but I know others like it. It’s fine. I just don’t listen to it.
Worth mentioning - Metalcore was popular in Christian circles in a way that Metal or Hardcore wasn’t. Regardless of how authentic they were about their Christianity, people latched onto these bands.
@@justingibbons8010 Underoath isn't Metalcore they are Emo IMHO, though some categorize them. It's like calling Demon Hunter Metalcore, which is pretty stupid since they are pretty much just normal metal, but because they sing they are metalcore? Zao is a lot more noisecore IMHO, pretty untalented and terrible musicianship. You had much better bands in the Christian Circles aside from AILD, you had War of Ages, A Plea For Purging, For Today, We Came as Romans, and maybe even Becoming the Archetype.
@@kylenewberry8598 Early Zao is one the best hardcore 1997. Way before all these newer christian metalcore bands. Demon hunter become metalcore in Summer of Darkness and The Triptych. also before Demon hunter formed, they were a hardcore band called training for utopia and they had the best raw and intense energy in the scene similar to the dillinger escape plan first album-43 burnt. . Check Training in utopia- A good feeling.
I was in high school when metalcore gained traction. I didn't like it at first. My best friend adopted the entire style: painted his nails, wore eyeliner, had THE hairstyle. He even had a scene gf. I feel like I missed out. I really started liking it about 10 years late.
Me but with Thrash. I wasn’t in hs for it, but I didn’t really deep dive past power rangers intro and guitar hero until I started going to local hardcore shows to support my buddies band
You didn't miss out on anything. The scene shit was pathetic. 90% of those people stopped being scene kids after highschool. I've been listening to metalcore since about 2006. I had the emo hair because naturally my hair grows out sort of emo style. Never pierced any part of my body, never wore make up, never painted my nails. You didn't really miss anything. Aside from a few bands there wasn't much to rave about. Some of the girls were hot, but like a hot girl is always a hot girl, that doesn't change.
I was into thrash and death metal in high school. I talked mad shit about a genre i knew nothing about. Right after i got out of high school some older friends of mine got me into metalcore. Then, i hated myself cause i loved the music and those scene dudes back in hs got all the bitches... Fuck.
Growing up with punk, I did the whole punk purist thing when I was in high school, hated bands for no reason and thought Pop Punk sucked. When I grew out of that, and started listening to deathcore, death metal, djent and metalcore I realized how dumb I had been about the gate keeping I had done with punk music. Now, I hear something I like, I don't need more of a reason to like it. It's kinda the same with issue with tattoos people have (as another artistically driven culture), I use to believe in saying, "don't get something without meaning". Well some of my shittiest tattoos are the ones I thought had deep meaning and my Star Wars tattoo is just cool and colorful. We think we need deeper meaning behind everything, when it's okay to like things at a surfaces level.
At a certain point AP might as well have been a genre. Same deal with Rise-core and Sumerian-core. All the artists featured on those labels at a time sounded the exact same basically. I cast spell of experience whimsy for once in your life @Dime_time333
I was a fan of all of it. But I can't say for certain I've met a lot of people that feel that way about metal. Anything from between the buried and me to korn, my playlists are a fucking mess
Killswitch, ATR, Trivium and As I Lay Dying defined that era for me. Trivium especially were my diehard favourite band throughout the 2000s, but it just doesn't hit like it used to. Sucks to grow up and change
When Iron Maiden put synths on the Seventh son of a Seventh son record, they were regularly asked by interviewers if they were worried about iron maiden fans, being upset about keyboards, given the general attitude about them, and Bruce Dickinson said “it’s very small minded of someone to be dismissive of works of art by simply, including another voice within a complicated arrangement if it makes the song better. Maybe those types of people aren’t really iron maiden fans in the first place?”
Not to mention... Black Sabbath, the "godfathers" of Metal, employed keyboards on several of their classic lineup's tracks and albums. Although not a trademark sound/ instrument used throughout their overall library of music, it remains as an addition to it.
The thing about women in the metal/rock/alt scene is legit. And 100% where the term 'girly pop' with gen Z comes from. As a millennial female who grew up in the scene, never in my life was I treated decent or as an equal by males in the community. For example. If I wore a band tee. 100% of the time it was some gate keepy douche bag male that was telling me to 'name all their albums' Like Never did i get that kind of third degree from females. Ever. Which is where gen z started this whole girly pop thing. And i love it. Girls just acting like girls and calling out the muscians that rep the girlies 🥰 its great. Shout out to artists like Rob Zombie and Johnathan Davis for reppin the girls for decades 🙌
I was bullied to no end back then. Black veil brides, get scared, asking, bmth, thirty seconds, all these bands I was seen as the most awful cringe person in my entire school. Now it’s popular and nobody judges half the time. And the style of dressing everything. But yeah back then life was hell listening to this type of music
I always felt that the note in the liner notes of RATM was put there for emphasis on Tom's creativity with the guitar, not to safeguard their credibility...
You're exactly right on this. Buckethead has a few albums with the same disclaimer. To let you know all those crazy laser beam robot noises are in fact being done with the guitar.
I thought the same thing when this was mentioned on the video. At the time it was a novelty to have all those sounds come from an actual guitar - and also good to note that since he was emulating these sounds in the first place, he was actually accepting those as legit sounds in a rock and metal context.
Not only was I thinking that about RATM, but I'm pretty sure the note on the Cannibal Corpse album was due to the fact that vocals were so inhumanly guttural and novel for their time. While it may have lent to their "credibility" in a sense, it felt as if it were in the same vein of RATM, to emphasize the ability on display that might easily be mistaken for something else.
Thanks for the Monsters mention! We wrote The Righteous Dead EP when we were still teenagers. Paid for it fully ourselves and printed cds! Appreciate everyone who still listens ❤
When I think of metacore I think of Killswitch, Norma Jean, ABR, Underoath, All that remains, trivium etc These all seem to be a different category as the MySpace Metalcore genre. Are they two categories or one?
"metalcore" is a quite broad genre since its just hardcore combined with metal: and both hardcore and metal themselves are broad genres. Some metalcore bands blends more straight forward hardcore with death metal, other bands combine post-hardcore with glam metal; or whatever. Most metalcore bands have other genres listed along side metalcore on their wiki page. Often the "myspace metalcore" bands will have "pop rock", "hard rock" or "post hardcore" listed. Although, norma jean is also listed as "post hardcore" and they do not have that same vibe.
I think one side was mainly just there to be played too loud in mall Hot Topics, and the other was full of innovators cobbling together an emergent genre. 🫠
Great Video. I am almost 30 at the time of writing this and when I was in my early teens, a lot of my peers started listening to metalcore and I couldn’t stand it, purely because I thought it was trendy. Fast forward to 2018 where a lot of metal core bands had finally stood the test of time and I grew a whole new appreciation for the genre. Loved what you had to say about the whole reaction from media, as well as innovation in general.
Gotten into many arguments back in high school that revolved around whether a band was heavy enough to not be considered "pussy shit". Vividly remember my friends throwing a hissy fit in a pit when BMTH didn't play Pray For Plagues at a show (they just released "there is a hell"). But the funniest part about these people, is they would completely write off a band they "loved" the second they made a song that wasn't "brutal" or w.e. Oh no! Singing! How taboo! So gay! Meanwhile we all were wearing nut hugger jeans and deep V neck shirts. It was a funny time to experience.
Funnily enough, as a so-called "metal elitist," I never hated metalcore. Early metalcore bands like Zao and As I Lay Dying were some of my gateway metal bands, and because much of the early metalcore bands were heavily influenced by hardcore punk and melodic death metal, I loved them. It was when they started adding pop sounds and became kinda emo like that I was like, "naw not for me anymore."
@@jeux2322 Bring me the horizon is way to over produced. The "Boyband with breakdown" argument is real. If you grew up on metal, HC / punk...you cant get into this emo stuff... and here in germany we have "Heaven shall burn" and that is peak metalcore in my opinion.
You keep me sane fent. I’m 35 but feel like i’m still in high school in the most nostalgic, best way when I watch your videos about that time period in my life.
Attack Attack!’’s musical “legitimacy” was not called into question because of their daring refusal to adhere to metal conventions. AA was horrendous live and provided a never-ending source of LolCow drama
Finn, I hope you see this.. this video was so good. You do this so perfectly. I honestly believe you deserve so much more popularity for doing these type of videos. It helps people learn more history in music. I love it. I hope you can find the passion to keep it up but ultimately. Make yourself happy man
As someone who listened to Rush growing up I wasn't bothered by synth's. Children of Bodom's Janne Wirman showed up, and man that dude can slay on the keys.
Synths and electronic elements in metal can sound good if it's complementory. Melodic Death Metal bands have been using it forever. The problem with these post hardcore scenekid bands is that the electronic or synthy parts didn't complement the music. They were used like completely disconnected birdges between breakdowns which had no connection or resembles to any motif in a song.
@@VintageBalderdash the scene kids from back then got older and gen z didn't care for the style/a lot of bands changed their sound. People shit on this kinda metalcore but it was the last time an alt youth subculture was popular with teens
It was so popular when I was in middle school and then slowly faded afterwards by the time I graduated high school. My friends and myself were already bored and tired of the same classic metal bands that we were into. So when this subgenre came and evolved over time it gave a fresh perspective to the whole scene in my opinion. It wasn’t the basic well known bands and music that was already out. The metal ore communities was actually fun, upbeat and welcoming to new metal music listeners. Literally every single band had similar qualities with the sound but the lyrics were what sent them apart. If you wanted to see a metal band you went to a show, however with most mainstream metal ore bands you went all over for local shows and festivals such as Warped Tour for example.
As I Lay Dying, All That Remains, Unearth, Shadows Fall, Lamb of God, In Flames, and for me, an extra special place for Parkway Drive, are the soundtrack of my disfunctional dirt bag teenage years.
@@revment People seem to forget about those early metalcore bands getting the NWOAHM label along with a lot of groove metal bands, that's how LoG ended up getting called that.
I recently bought a house that my friends and I used to rent when we were younger. All the partying we did and blah blah, it's a nostalgic spot and back then for some reason we called the place "the crab". In honor, when I moved back in I named the wifi network "stick stickly" and the password is "somedaycamesuddenly" I'm real proud of that decision 😂😂😂
I think it is an absolute piece of fucking trash. But, I do applaud them for making something that makes you go what the fuck so hard. And you can't deny that there is talent in the song. It is not a bad song, technically.
I grew out of metalcoreca a long time ago, once I’ve learned there’s this thing called punk rock. But I will always accredit Asking Alexandria for making me interested in music back in the day. Before that I wasn’t really into anything.
I make this point in a comment above. I'm an old battle vest wearing metalhead and I love some metalcore - but once some of the bands and the scene generally morphed into poppy mallcore it was just awful.
Love both old and modern metalcore and a huge fan of electronic music myself that I dabbled in producing EDM, but yeah I never really like the electroniccore/synthcore phase of metalcore. Most of the songs were just badly produced and written. The reason the songs don't have chorus is probably because they didn't know how to write and arrange an actual song with structure and just went with whatever they thought sound good
Yep I personally wasn't a fan of the boyband era bands for a long time. Recently I've found a few songs from those bands more appealing but never anywhere near the level of KSE, All That Remains, Parkway Drive, Trivium and LoG.
This all reminds me of why I never got deep into any scene. I grew up listening to metal - started with Slipknot and eventually found my way toward Cannibal Corpse and other death and some black metal bands. I didn't look "metal" at all. I wore Abercrombie and Hollister with New Balance on my feet, had short hair - kinda preppy. I guess I was proof that no matter the genre, music is for everyone.
This is crazy to me because the metalcore I was into was like Unearth, Killswitch, God Forbid, Shadows Fall, and Misery Signals. Why does that era of metalcore directly before the crabcore era never get mentioned lol
EXACTLY. Every time he talks about metalcore I'm like what? Haha we called everything from the scene "posthardcore" so that's how I always think of these bands
Man, SAME there - it physically cringes me to hear him describing these bands as metalcore. Such label was used for bands with clear heavy metal influences where riffs were meeting melodies - I'd add names like Bullet for My Valentine, All That Remains, Atreyu, Avenged Sevenfold etc to your list. Band from this vid were called electronicore or post-hardcore
I'm 55, and looking back I couldn't stand Metalcore at the start. So I just stuck with the typical 'Butt Rock', Grunge, Thrash, Hardcore. Now I have to say it's my favorite genre. Could it be I'm having a midlife crisis? Maybe a little bit, maybe not. Maybe it's listening to Octane and relying on Spotify recommendations? Probably. Or maybe the bands that have been around the longest have learned what works and what doesn't and have excelled to a point where their sound has peaked. Or it's a combination of all of that. My Rock/Metal tastes are all over the board. Last night was a sold out Dayseeker show with Silent Planet, Rain City Drive, and Avoid. Next show I go to is Spite, Bodysnatcher, Thrown, and Mouth for War. And I'm really looking forward to it. Mostly because of Thrown, that band is blowing up, and with good reason. Their sound really hits a sweet spot for me!
Dayseeker's last acoustic album is rock solid. When you're old enough, it's perfectly fine to burn your ears with Nails or Meshuggah and then listen to Dayseeker. No one gives a shit, you just enjoy the music...
@@th3cha1rmak3r I agree, it's great, and I love Rory's cover of 'My Immortal' it was superb. What I listen to is generally what suits my mood at the time, like I'm sure many do. Music is my therapy. Funny you mention Meshuggah, I finally saw them live for the first time when they recently toured with In Flames, who I absolutely love.
I can remember going to see Alesana’s headliner in 2009 and seeing Asking Alexandria and Enter Shikari for the first time. What a fucking time to be alive. Probably like 40 of us packed in a basement of rocketown in Nashville. The whole boy band kind of makes sense now that you say that because even though I am in my 30’s, I still enjoy bands such as Sleep Token, Bad Omens, Chase Atlantic, Beartooth, Halestorm, and other “girly” music. But hey I’m a straight dude and always see plenty of women at the shows I go to. 😅
Seeing this after your last video is a welcome breath of fresh air. You're sounding passionate and like your having fun. For me, this style of Metalcore is something I'm not able to get into pop or artists like the Weekend. I have nothing against the artists, but this genre simply isn't for me, and that's okay.
I feel the same way about it. I tried but could never really get into bands like Attack Attack, Asking Alexandria, I See Stars, Of Mice and Men, The Devil Wears Prada even though I was a teenager then. This whole boyband with screams thing was real and I thought the music was wack with the whiny, autotuned cleans and heartbreak lyrics. Plus I thought they looked rather feminine and weak the way they dressed.
That thing with the synths reminded me when people cried over Iron Maiden using them in somewhere in time and seventh son and also that repeated when 90's black metal bands used them. it's as old as time and your point about the art and the means to create it is so valid!
As someone who loves traditional forms of Metal and doesn't really enjoy Hardcore - the mix is obviously going to be off putting. I mean why mix something I like with something I don't like? But the thing is - I always listen to Metalcore with an open mind and find some bands I genuinely love. Trivium being the foremost example. I think they're one of the FEW Metalcore bands that get embraced by the elitists.
Dude I’m so glad you noticed the no chorus thing too!! I remember when my friends started showing me the MySpace style metalcore and I knew something was off structurally. Going from traditional metal that had intros/verse/chorus etc… to just a 3 minute mash up of music lol. As blood runs black had a lot of 3 minute mash ups lol
Finn: He called Attack Attack "Hot Topic fatties"... Me: HAHAHA😂😂 Finn:... which was a mean and not cool thing to say Me: **ahem** of course, of course🧐
Growing up in the local scene in AZ during the myspace era is something I'd love to sit down and talk with you about. It's a time of my life that I will forever hold dear in my heart. Please let me know.
I moved here(az) in 2007. The places I went to for shows was the Marque and the clubhouse. I been to all few shows the Nile theater and of course there was Edge fest.
@@malegria9641 This music culture can only still be around if you and a collective group of like minded people come together to make this happen. The amount of raw talent that came from the Az music scene was incredible for that time. So many great bands came from the scene. The entire decade of '01- 10 was filled with kids that were pop/punk, nu metal, goth, ravers, emo scene kids. You couldn't go anywhere without seeing them around. Tempe, mesa, chandler, phx, everywhere. Here's a list of local bands that I supported in the scene that were still in high school and fresh out. Eyes Set To Kiil, blessthefall, The Word Alive, Greeley Estates, Scary kids Scaring Kids, Lydia....the list goes on and on.
Monsters shout out hell yeah! I remember seeing those guys at the El Torian back in like 2009. I got to meet the vocalist briefly, he seemed like a humble dude. Good video!
Used to know Brandon Schiapetti from Bleeding Through, via his gym, where I was a member before I moved up to Washington. Great guy! Never did warm up to Metalcore, for the exact reasons you mentioned, but Brandon is seriously a good dude.
It's weird bc I hated the crabcore wave of bands, but not really for any of the reasons you mentioned. I enjoyed other bands that used synths or mashed up genres. I just kinda hated the entire aesthetic of crabcore/scenecore.
Punk influence on metal has been a thing longer than most peolle realize. First NWOBHM took some punk influence (even being independent) and was a reaction to the decline of 70s heavy metal. A bit later thrash metal (and soon crossover thrash with even more hardcore punk influence). Motorhead was considered one of first band who combined metal and punk.
Metalcore was and still is my all time favorite subgenre. I have absolutely no problem admitting that I’ll always be a core kid. That being said, I love music in general and don’t limit myself to just one genre or subgenre.
It feels like there is a lot of variation within the sub genre of metalcore. I’m definitely not a fan of a lot of the “MySpace metalcore” but I’d say metalcore is my absolute favorite genre because when I think metalcore I think Killswitch engage, all that remains, as I lay dying, trivium, bullet for my valentine, and Phinehas. I feel the musicianship for the bands I mentioned blows the MySpace bands out of the water in terms of skill, variety, and melody. It’s just wild that metal is so broad that one can argue that a lot of its subgenres could have subgenres.
Other than the 5 death metal elitists at my high school, I didn't experience the hatred for metalcore until the later bands like Attack Attack, TDWP, Asking Alexandria etc. I remember everyone collectively liking Killswitch and As I Lay Dying, the pre-2008 metalcore before it got weird.
Bands like Killswitch, Unearth, The Agonist, Bleeding Through, Trivium, did look at the metal side as on cool. Which is why would more then likely find guitar solos with those bands. Those bands would also be turing with actually metal bands like Dark Tranquility, Epica, Children of Bodom, Eluveitie, etc.
@@evacody1249 Yeah it's weird, I don't think I really considered the Attack Attack, TDWP and Asking Alexandria type bands as metalcore back in the day. I didn't really know exactly what it was, I always thought of them as crabcore or breakdown core but I didn't group them together with bands like Killswitch, As I Lay Dying and August Burns Red that all had that more traditional metalcore sound.
I actually love the complete lack of choruses on Number[s]. I don't know why, it just makes it feel like a super long sorta prog song. The second album also has no choruses, only after that did they start including them.
I was one of the haters back then, after I was a participator: I enjoyed the fresh air in the alt scene with new song structures, those breakdowns that later reminded me of dubstep drops, and new voices and sounds in general. What I didn't like was the ignorance of many new bands and the fans. Metalcore combining metal and hardcore punk, but nobody wanted to listen of either of them. Nobody draw inspiration from old punk or recent metal. Metalcore bands influenced metalcore bands. And this trend can be seen even today. What has changed since 2008? The guitar sounds are dirtier, more djent, more breakdowns, more post-production. I don't condone metalcore for having its own identity. It's just a sour taste from way back then that still doesn't sit right with me. With that, whenever someone says "breakdowns are metal", I have to intervene. Breakdowns are very metalcore. And metalcore is its own thing with its own identity. And that's cool. Just don't try to be different to Bad Religion and Slayer, and then tell me you're part of both. Honestly, no. All I want is more new stuff, more influences, more change. More experimentation in the alt scene! Inb4 "Slayer literally has a breakdown in Raining Blood" bro yes I know shut up just because Dream Theater wrote a symphony doesn't mean they're viennese school.
I was completely burnt out on heavy music around the time metal core started and aside from a small handful of bands (Candiria, Converge, DEP are the big 3) and old school death metal, I had no idea the genre existed. I only “saw” the genre, never heard it. Unfortunately that also meant that I missed out on OG deathcore. I think I’d have really liked that when it came out.
To me, metalcore is Killswitch Engage, All That Remains, Shadows Fall, Diecast, As I Lay Dying, Trivium, Bullet For My Valentine, a bit of Five Finger Death Punch. When bands like BMTH and Asking Alexandria came out [no pun], they did not make sense to me, let alone Attack Attack and other dancy stuff. Only later, like in the mid-2010s, I kind of started to enjoy their music, mostly because of Sempiternal and From Death to Destiny records. However, some of the songs, like Can You Feel My Heart, felt so annoying to me because they were everywhere around. Now I appreciate a lot more this subgenre. It took some time for musicians and producers alike to figure out how to make boybands and breakdowns work together.
That whole point about metalheads being traditionists is kinda right, but really kinda wrong. Metalheads are traditionalists, but not about which instruments are in the songs. There has been a million bands that have used synths in interesting ways that are accepted: Dio, Emperor, B*zum, Children of Bodom, Rammstein, etc. Even bands that use the sax are getting favorable reviews from the media like RIvers of Nihil, White Ward. I hear bands with pan flutes, and weird eastern European instruments I can't name. No one cares about that. The part about autotune and drum triggers I agree with. Metalheads are traditionalists about the authenticity of the work.
I got into crossover thrash through Municipal Waste around the same time metalcore was getting popular. They're both metal/punk hybrids, but very different scenes.
I bloody adored metalcore. As someone who was never a classic rocker, metalhead, emo or punk, it just clicked with me. Okay, not Attack Attack or Asking Alexandria, but a lot of these bands still hold up well. Converge deserve a lot of street cred. And as a genre, it has its own subgenres split between the 90s, 00s, 10s and 20s. It might have never hit the uber success of classic, thrash, glam or alternative metal and other rock genres, but it deserves its own praise. I'll never get sick of Misery Signals, pre-2020 Architects or Killswitch. 2006 Myspace presented some music I could never find on the radio or TV (especially growing up in the UK) and I've never grown out of it. Enter Shikari and Dividing the Line influenced late 2000s metalcore with EDM sounds. Let’s face it, anyone who doesn't understand the influence that metalcore has had on heavy music is lying to themselves for whatever lame reason.
I've been a Metalhead since 2009, I'm 29 now and I've gotten interested in all the subgenres of Metal. I went from FFDP(whether you like them or not they got me into Metal and Hard Rock. I got into heavier bands like, Napalm Death, Meshuggah, Periphery, Cattle Decapitation and more.. Metalcore and Deathcore were great in the 2010. Some Metalcore and Deathcore bands are still cool today. Like I See Stars, Ice Nine Kills, Asking Alexandria, BMTH, Veil Of Maya, Attila, Emmure Abandon All Ships, Devil Wears Prada, and Attack Attack! I don't care who hates what I like, I'm going to enjoy what I like while you're hating. Those were and still my thoughts 😂
The real metalcore was the early-mid 2000's bands that still had actual metal riffs with lots of harmonised leads & solos such as your Trivium's, BFMV, Killswitch etc. (I'm not naming them all but we all know the stuff/sound I'm referring to). The later more breakdown-centric stuff such as your Asking Alexandrias & Memphis May Fires & such should've been labelled something else really...as people have pointed out there's a lot more of a post hardcore influence there as opposed to traditional heavy metal & thrash influences.
As a lifelong metal head, I've never understood the "genre wars". At the end of the day you like what you like, I like what I like, we're all metal heads and have lot more in common than not. It's just more media drive tribalism written by a bunch of quacks who are envious of those actually creating art.
Yeah, I just said basically the same thing elsewhere. Maybe things got different, but in my day being a DC hardcore kid, nobody “hated” metal guys or bands, especially since metal was definitely making its way into the music at the time. I always felt like bands would get more “metal” as they got better at their instruments and that it was a pretty fluid line as to what was even hardcore or metal when you had bands like black flag and the bad brains sounding pretty “metal.” Nor did anyone I know dog on anyone for looking “metal” or whatever.
@@paulhilton6426 - Well wait, what about him not really finding much meaning in the lines which are drawn within metal and the purported factions within it is somehow misunderstanding “metal’s” outsider subculture? He’s not saying, “hey - you like Katy Perry and I like Slayer, who cares it’s all music!” Must metal’s outsider subculture get so fractured and granular that even sub-sub-subcultures demand loyalty and purity? Cause dang - I like Darkthrone and Taake, Green Lung and Sleep, 3 Inches of Blood and Priest, the F’ing Champs and the Stormtroopers of Death and I’d find it weird at this point to judge an artistic effort on the degree to which it matches genre-convention instead of whether it is appealing and potentially disregarding something because it’s not “blackened doom” enough and that’s what’s real only.
@b.w.22 Sorry, my comment was too brief to be meaningful. I took umbrage with the original comment's over simplification, then foolishly responded with one of my own. I'm busy right now, I'll explain myself a little clearer later tonight.
@@paulhilton6426 - Hey man, no worries. I appreciate the reply and am genuinely curious about your take, whenever it is that you get the time to do so. If it’s tomorrow at this same time or even in a week, I’ll take note, as I definitely lack useful insight on the current and historical metal scene and why it is so often described as, I dunno, clannish? Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful reply so far. Edit: If I’ve myself oversimplified or misrepresented the nature of anything, please just chalk it up to a degree of ignorance on my part regarding metal’s fandom and culture and, really, the values that animate it. For instance, I’ve seen folks defend “Baby Metal” pretty vigorously like they’re more than just a kind of J/K “music product” and are, in fact, “legit” as artists and in the view of some, I guess, doing something akin to GWAR? Just personally, strong disagree.
While I do agree that the metal old guard tends to be way too caustic when expressing their opinion on this stuff, their position is totally understandable. A lot of metal was born out of being a sort of counterculture to pop, so when people are into metal for that reason, of course they're going to be upset when all of a sudden there's a big movement bringing in what they had spent years avoiding. And I wouldn't totally write off them hating the music as purely a "new thing bad" type of perspective. A good part of the reason people got into metal was for the fusion of aggression and a more demanding approach to instrumentation. The melodic riffs of metalcore were often just seen as watered down melodic death metal riffs. Electronic and keyboard elements in metal were not mindblowing or new, so the seemingly random insertion of rave sections were just seen as a worse take on what was already there. When they're otherwise really into the type of breakdowns Suffocation and Dying Fetus would do, they're going to find a bunch of teenagers filling their songs with single note chugs to be pretty amateurish. Boiling it down to traditionalism is a bit reductive, a lot of them did genuinely find it to be regressive. But ya know, live and let live. It's not like poppier metalcore and more traditional kinds of metal can't coexist in the world. There are still plenty of vocal dickheads out there, but I feel these days people are okay with just staying in their lanes.
Even though I started my modern metal journey with metalcore even I hate it. It started with Trivium, Killswitch Engage, Dry Kill Logic and Bullet for Valentine… I blinked quickly fell into bands like Lamb of God, Behemoth, Dimmu Borgir, Black Dahlia Murder and Devil Driver For me, metalcore was easy to jump into because it rides a good line between alt rock and metal. What made it get old for me fast was the shallow vocals, and how every metalcore band seemed to get more pop and less metal with every release (A7X is talented but look through their discography and you’ll hear exactly what I mean) P.S. the best blend of metal and electronic music I’ve heard was Daath - the Hinderers
My favorite thing to come out of this in the last ten years has to be Belmont/Capstan/Like Pacific and the blend of Post Hardcore/Pop punk we got. As far as Metalcore I think the culture just shifted, TSSF being a prime example.
I first heard metalcore in 2002 when a stranger in a metal chat room suggested Poison the Well to me. I downloaded A Wish for Wings that Work on Kazaa. I was blown away. I showed all my friends who would listen. I listened to those first three albums non stop. Ugh... good times
When I was a teenager I hated that music, and everything related to the emo scene/aesthetic, I remember having discussions on internet on how bad this scene was, "it's a disgrace to rock and metal". I was that edgy guy who wanna be different. Only recently, thanks to your videos, I realized that actually it wasn't that bad, and since I am a fan of At The Gates I right now enjoy a lot of metalcore and deathcore bands. Thanks Finn I appreciate a lot your content, you say a lot of hard thruts that nobody talks.
I’m 52 and grew up on Kiss through my slightly older cousin. My best friend got me into Megadeth and Accept and I got myself into Iron Maiden and so many others. I was into hair metal (of course) and I’ve always loved straight rock like Jefferson Airplane/Starship and Aerosmith, as well as pop like Men At Work and early techno like Gary Neuman. So when I first heard metalcore, like a lot of haters, I didn’t appreciate it. I also loathed the look and still do. But the music grew on me and now I regularly listen to Asking Alexandria, Motionless in White, and a bunch of others. As I’ve gotten older I’ve realized life is too short to be some kind of myopic gatekeeper on art. Music changes. It has to. Younger people with different life experiences and perceptions build the new sounds. I’d be a fool not to sit back and appreciate what new genre comes along. Broadening the horizons is all important to a happy life.
I still vividly remember hearing “Reptar, King of the Ozone” by The Devil Wears Prada for the first time in 2008 when my friend’s brother showed it to me. We thought it was hilarious and really only listened to it ironically. A few years pass by, and I’m actually listening to TDWP, We Came As Romans, and Bring Me the Horizon. Fast forward to today and there’s no denying that a lot of those bands are more popular than ever, especially when you include Caleb Shomo and Johnny Franck from Attack Attack now that they’re in Beartooth and Bilmuri. You have to give them credit to longevity.
RATM wrote that comment on their album sleeve: 07:10 not because they wanted to claim or clarify to their fans they were purists, they did that because a lot of their songs do sound like they use a synth or samples due to Morello's unique guitar playing. It feels disingenuous when you say otherwise because you probably know full well what the real reason would have been for that message on the sleeve.
Yeah, okay, but the sentiment behind it is basicly the same. "Oh no no no, don't dislike us, we're really not using any samples"; as if it were a bad thing if it were.
@@zomgsekk I mean it kinda is to most fans of heavy stuff. Synths really do trigger the "gay" feeling and if you say otherwise I simply don't believe you. Cue jokes about me feeling a gay feeling for synth as if you don't know what I mean.
They actually wrote that because using synth has long been thought of as gay, as Finn rightly called out being the word of choice. If you took it as a sincere display I'm sorry you completely missed the snarky tone and didn't have the historic context in music to immediately know why they were saying it.
Saying that he first heard of metalcore in 2008 is late as fuck... Like to the extent that Killswitch had already been put in a guitar hero game, which means that they and the genre were popular enough to warrant that. He also goes on (5:40) to call Attack, Attack a song...? I've never watched this dude before but it's pretty poor for someone who grew up in the punk/hardcore/metal scene like myself.
The anti-keyboards, -synthesisers and -experimentation is, though, very much an American metal and punk rock movement. European metal artists have experimented with keyboards and synths from the '70s and '80s onwards, eg Deep Purple, Iron Maiden and Judas Priest, and Punk-influenced bands did so too, eg The Dammed, Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Cure and Joy Division. Nowadays, European artists like Asking Alexandria, Bring Me the Horizon and Amaranthe are in the vanguard of going beyond just the drums, bass and guitar in 'eavy rock.
I do miss the days of taking a smoke drive with friends and blaring Asking Alexandria, TDWP, BMTH, Woe Is Me, etc. Good times. I never understood metalheads hating some of these bands for wearing skinny jeans and have fancy hair as if thrash metal wasn’t doing the same thing basically. Another thing I didn’t understand at the time was metalheads would hate these bands but loved Killswitch, All That Remains. As I Lay Dying, etc. When metalcore got popular, it was fun and different. I don’t call myself a metalhead anymore, but a metal fan.
From my experience alot of the old school metal guys loved metalcore. When Poison the Well, Evergreen Terrace, Killswitch, Unearth etc started gaining traction in the late 90s/early 2ks, everyone was stoked that heavy music was having a moment. When it shifted to scene bands is when people started to hate and IMO rightfully so. Whiney vocals and girls pants started to become intertwined with breakdowns and the scene got lame. It was a far fall from the bands that put metalcore on the map. I can speak for myself and many others when I say we didn't want whiney, nasally badly sung vocals in "heavy" music. Obviously there were a few outliers that were good at that style but as a whole it was lame.
Yeah the emo singing is what killed it for me. I'd start listening to a band and would think I like it then an emo-ey chorus would come up and I'd be done with that band. It is kinda funny nowadays because I go back to some bands I used really like and realize it was more emo then I remembered so IDK if it was just certain emo vocals or if I didn't like a band for some subconscious reason and blamed it on the whiney vocals.
@@HellfireEternal I love plenty of Emo and Post Hardcore bands. I just didn't want it in my heavy and very few bands I've heard can actually pull it off. The whinier the vocals, the more I disliked it.
Didnt help that the switch happened like 5 years. A lot of "This is metalcore...this is also metalcore" "THE FUCK IT ISNT" type of conversations. Metalcore has got so many conflicting split personalities that are all angry that the others turned up.
I first listened to Poison the Well when a pen pal would send me song clips from them in '99. he shared PTW with me, and I shared Zao with him. I saw Evergreen Terrace live years ago back when they were younger. Great band. I saw Unearth a couple years later with the loudest breakdowns in a club I've heard. Good stuff.
@@fehner27 Being from FL, I was lucky enough to see PTW, ET, Shai Hulud and alot of the bands that were early in the metalcore years. Saw Evergreen open for the Suicide Machines in Jax w Catch 22. Saw an ET record release show with As I Lay Dying, Sworn Enemy, On Broken Wings and a few others also. Saw Misery Signals touring Malice at a small club. Saw Unearth at same small club. August Burns red played two tiny places in Daytona and the list goes on. It was a cool time in music.
@@gx1tar1er OH yea that was my era Shadows Fall, As I lay dying, Trivium, Killswitch engage, Lamb of God each one with a different flavor that made them unique
Grew up on hard rock. I still remember the day my cousin played to plant a seed from we came as Romans when I was like 12. Changed my entire outlook on music
I love a lot of metalcore bands, and i genuinely loved how Enter Shikari incorporated electronic stuff. My uncles band was/is based out of ohio and somewhat influential in the christian branch of the scene, Signed to Tooth and Nail, contemporaries with Zao, Underoath, Tantrum Of The Muse, etc, so i was lucky enough to grow up with an appreciation for it. Metalcore was my gateway to death metal, tech death, power metal, etc...but man, by the time i was 14 it seemed like the clones of those earlier bands came out of nowhere, and kinda sapped the fun out of it. Next thing you know there are over 40 Chugga-Chuggas-wee-wee breakdowns per hour at any given festival, and suddenly all the clean vocals had that Burt McCracken post-hardcore "screamo" sound. It got boring, and grating. It felt like most of the fan-base were former pop-punk kids who had no appreciation for the metal bands that were playing alongside these groups, let alone the ones that influenced the bands that broke big in the 00's-10's. Metalcore was done dirty IMO, by record companies that wanted it to be the new pop punk and absolutely by the fans and the media.
When I was a teenage punk music elitist, I only hated it because it felt so clean, sanitized, and packaged like something you would go buy at Target. I was all about being authentic, “real”, and raw. Also, the anger I heard inside my head sounded more like the extreme, crusty, hardcore stuff rather than anything remotely like Bullet for my Valentine.
Just went to a metalcore / nu metal show with 5 bands brand new and old. And my god the amount of young women and guys there was so much higher than old dudes at the deathmetal shows I've been too. At probably a majority in their 20s-30s and a probably nearing 40/60 split in gender. Turns out seeing new women fronting bands or listening to songs about partying or having charismatic frontment appeals to a younger more diverse crowd.
What's your point? Go to a Taylor swift show, you'll see way more young girls and guys.When I write songs I'm not thinking about if teenage chicks are into it.
I started going to metal shows in my late teens and 20's, around 2016-18 i was going to my first few shows before i started going to one or two a month. Definitely have noticed that even states over fron my own city, metalcore shows have bigger + younger crowds, where deathmetal shows were a lot smaller + older
I grew up in Massachusetts and in the early 2000s metalcore revolved around the Worcester Palladium, it was a palpable scene every weekend the place was packed with teens from all over New England. It was an amazing time to be.
See I love metalcore till this day honestly even though I’m 21 now but back in middle school metalcore was the one the most amazing thing to me honestly. I don’t see the problem with girls or women who like metalcore or deathcore etc. there’s no reason to gatekeeping them tbh. It’s still amazing to me as a proud metalcore fan but this is my opinion.
I feel like you can boil this whole thing down to, the singers were too pretty and most bands didn’t fit what the scene saw as the archetype. Also many of the bands were selling clothing lines at the bringing of the internet era something people weren’t really open to yet. and also these bands were not afraid to do the corny covers.
Also a majority of the backlash of Metalcore was mostly the 2008-2013 wave which was mostly edgelord scene cringe and image over substance which was kind of valid/aged like milk and one of the worst eras of Metalcore (Stuff like this is the reason I listened to a lot of European Metal until 2014 when that stuff died down)
The first band I ever heard was underoath when they’re only chasing safety was out and it was a good start off band for people in general if you never heard music like that before. So when I heard them I went down a rabbit hole and when attack attack came out I followed them religiously on MySpace and heard every update song and vlog and they broke me into everything after that I heard asking Alexandria, TDWP, and so on. And now I’m 31 and I listen to varials slaughter to prevail and others because they all come from the same place and they share a similar feeling when hearing it and now I still listen to all the old 2000s to 2010s metalcore all the time because it was written so well and Joey sturgis set the standard for how this music needed to sound for years to come.
MY STATE STARTED THAT SHIT! Love us or hate us for it, but Massachusetts "Set the World Ablaze" with metalcore from the likes of Killswitch Engage, All That Remains , Unearth, Converge, etc If you want good bands that still carry on this kind of sound currently: ERRA, Make Them Suffer, Periphery, Northlane, and Architects (just ignore their 2021/2022 albums lol)
Finn: "metalheads don't like bands using the 'traditional' set up of guitar, bass and drums. Metalheads: gush over bands like Ministry, Godflesh and Nailbomb, all of which use more than just that (I'm a big fan of all three, for what its worth).
At the gates core, MySpace core, djent, but rock core, and whatever sleep token is. Metalcore is more versatile of a genre then any metal sub genre. Metalcore is also just the umbrella term for what whatever the new trendy/younger artists are making.
I hated the style, but mostly because of it’s image and it’s fanbase. Why all the guys looked like emo with their hairstyles. And also they were cute according to their female fans and it seemed that they were boy bands masquerading as metal bands.
Meanwhile me with my 14 yrs old ass back then listening to a japanese metalcore band called Fear, and loathing in las vegas my mind was blown of how they go crazy with those synths.
My main gripe with the genre has always been the "pop-boyband clean vocals" that many of them have, often with a disgusting amount of autotune or some such (terminology may be wrong). Cant stand it. "Art critics" are the most pretentious bastards on the planet... "Oh this painting has such untild depths, it speaks to my soul", meanwhile what they are talking about is a blue horizontal line in the middle of a white painted canvas. And then some schmuck buys it for a million bucks.. and then there are sculptures that literally resemble nothing so much as a block of trash... pretentious.
Speaking for most of the guys I knew at the time, our main issue with metalcore was that it didn't seem to integrate it's disparate parts in a natural way. We were all bogans(metalhead slang in Aus/NZ) but we were into new sounds and new tech, like Nu Metal and the various collaboration soundtracks at the time. An example is how Orgy sounded like technometal but AttackAttack just had a hard techno bit in a hardcore song. That lack of natural integration really pissed us off, like really pissed us off.
The fact that you're discussing this topic, and in particular the parts about "who can say what is good or not," while wearing a bodybuilding/lifting T-shirt is simply amazing. The lifting community has these same debates with their associated trends. Good stuff and deep dive. Thank you!!
Thank you for calling out the misogyny in the metal scene, it's still well and alive today. Some things never change but people really need to call it out. Hearing people say the metal scene is so safe/kind/supportive while always dealing with gatekeeping and regressive behavior is comedic. And then of course it pushes people away from exploring more of the genre.
I love metalcore and nu metal - my 2 fav genres. I listened to the first wave though, killswitch, bury your dead, bleeding through, hatebreed, parkway, i killed the prom queen, all that remains, as i lay dying, caliban, etc. Once i heard asking alexandria i stopped listening to any new metalcore bands completely. They just all sound so generic and the same. I can listen to a couple of songs here and there but don't actually "listen" to it..
That was exactly where I stopped, too. It wasn't a conscious bias - I had no idea what they looked like or anything. But this one girl in our friend group always played scene/crabcore shit and I just couldn't vibe with it no matter how hard I tried.. maybe song structure is part of it? It just all sounded so "same-y". I never heard anything close to AILD riffs, Howard Jones' vocals or the like. Atreyu would be the closest thing to that, prior to the MySpace era - but at least they could write some bangers.
Finn: "metalheads don't like metal bands going beyond the usual setup of guitar, bass and drums". Literally power metal: uses shitloads of keyboards. Industrial metal: exists
"Metalheads" don't like either power metal or industrial metal lol If you do, you aren't who he's talking about. I know those people he's talking about.
@@Tempo1337 power metal and industrial metal do, at least in my experience, tend to be more accepted than for example, metalcore, deathcore, and nu metal.
@@Tempo1337thats the thing hes describing all "metalheads" as these very specific tyoes of people. That sounds weird to me. As a black guy its like hearing someone say all black guys steal when its very few black guys who actually steal.
@@Tempo1337 but he's not talking about your 'tRvE MeTaL' elitists, who only listen to some obscure cult black metal band that has like one demo that they only sold 199 exclusive copies of and then ritually sacrificed the 200th one to Satan. He's talking about the metal community *in general*. And bands like Ministry, Nailbomb and Godflesh are pretty well liked by most metalheads, at least in my experience.
@@RavageRitual1986 As it is with those things, it changed over the following decade or so. But in the beginning, not that many people I knew cared about that new cool music that was more than just a little bit promoted by all the magazines that still were around back then. And I am speaking of Europe here.
What's really funny is the whole MySpace band mindset is still fully alive 15 years after all of this started but now it's all over TikTok and Instagram
The boomers who say metalcore was “gay” are the same people who liked Pantera. You ever seen how they looked at first? Lmfao The reality is that metalcore was much less “gay” aesthetically than much of the classic rock and metal scene, and it was objectively heavier and more aggressive.
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you know dude, saw ur video the other day. I get u have a fam to support. I flip burgers, and have a 3 yr old by myself full time. I think u could do even better by doing what u say u would like to do more, but go all in with ur ballz in. Dont half ass it. try it, even as a side project. Cuz i can tell that you would like to talk about things i would be more interested in, as would my musician buds. I dont mean like a guitar channel or anything, just a little more about the actual music, less like a magazine
I was in my late 20's to early 30's during the MySpace era and I remember that scene getting hate because the bands got popular online and not the "real" way. It's the same thing people whine about with being TikTok famous. Also people didn't like how the scene kids looked but the same arguments could be made about the juggalos or the slipknot fans. People just like to be judgemental, gatekeeping assholes 😂
Metalcore (particularly songs that have a combo of clean and harsh vocals) is undoubtedly the GOAT genre. Don’t @ me, son.
I agree and never understood the hate. The Devil Wears Prada is my all time favorite but I love that entire genre
You Didn’t Listen To Me When I Suggested What Killed Post-Grunge I know you made a Is Post Grunge the Worst Genre but I Think a proper What Killed Post-Grunge needs to be Made
The biggest reason a lot of people hated metalcore, was briefly touched on but not emphasized enough. It oversaturated the market. With MySpace and social media in general being pretty new, there were 1000 trash bands for every decent band. Burnout occurred before people had a chance to really digest it.
yes, only 10-12 good bands.
Oh yeah, true… there was metalcore bands popping up everywhere. Every neighborhood in every English speaking country had a metalcore band who wrote breakdown and had a MySpace page.
Kinda like thrash and death metal in the preinternet days. Too many trash bands jumped on the bandwagon.
Nah, it was that whiney wimpy vocals followed by scream and back to just spoken word. I absolutely can’t stand it but I know others like it. It’s fine. I just don’t listen to it.
@@steveschu “iTs wHiNeY eMo sTuFf… duuuuhh” typical metalhead who’s most recent album they bought came out in 1991.
I’m definitely not a 35 year old man who routinely screams myself hoarse when I’m alone in my truck…
Me neither!
Lucky. I'm the 35 year old man who can't figure out how to do death growls in his shower ☹️
Even as a vehicles screamer, gotta take care of your voice so you can rip it on roadtrips
Me either
36 here and still do it in the car \m/
Worth mentioning - Metalcore was popular in Christian circles in a way that Metal or Hardcore wasn’t. Regardless of how authentic they were about their Christianity, people latched onto these bands.
Another reason why it's gay
Yup. Zao and living sacrifice were doing metalcore in 1998. Underoath was early 2000. He starts the history in 2008… but that’s late in the game!!
@@justingibbons8010 Underoath isn't Metalcore they are Emo IMHO, though some categorize them. It's like calling Demon Hunter Metalcore, which is pretty stupid since they are pretty much just normal metal, but because they sing they are metalcore? Zao is a lot more noisecore IMHO, pretty untalented and terrible musicianship. You had much better bands in the Christian Circles aside from AILD, you had War of Ages, A Plea For Purging, For Today, We Came as Romans, and maybe even Becoming the Archetype.
As I Lay Dying and August Burns Red helped with that part.
@@kylenewberry8598 Early Zao is one the best hardcore 1997. Way before all these newer christian metalcore bands. Demon hunter become metalcore in Summer of Darkness and The Triptych. also before Demon hunter formed, they were a hardcore band called training for utopia and they had the best raw and intense energy in the scene similar to the dillinger escape plan first album-43 burnt. . Check Training in utopia- A good feeling.
I was in high school when metalcore gained traction. I didn't like it at first. My best friend adopted the entire style: painted his nails, wore eyeliner, had THE hairstyle. He even had a scene gf. I feel like I missed out. I really started liking it about 10 years late.
Me but with Thrash. I wasn’t in hs for it, but I didn’t really deep dive past power rangers intro and guitar hero until I started going to local hardcore shows to support my buddies band
You didn't miss out on anything. The scene shit was pathetic. 90% of those people stopped being scene kids after highschool. I've been listening to metalcore since about 2006. I had the emo hair because naturally my hair grows out sort of emo style. Never pierced any part of my body, never wore make up, never painted my nails. You didn't really miss anything. Aside from a few bands there wasn't much to rave about. Some of the girls were hot, but like a hot girl is always a hot girl, that doesn't change.
I was into thrash and death metal in high school. I talked mad shit about a genre i knew nothing about. Right after i got out of high school some older friends of mine got me into metalcore. Then, i hated myself cause i loved the music and those scene dudes back in hs got all the bitches... Fuck.
Growing up with punk, I did the whole punk purist thing when I was in high school, hated bands for no reason and thought Pop Punk sucked. When I grew out of that, and started listening to deathcore, death metal, djent and metalcore I realized how dumb I had been about the gate keeping I had done with punk music. Now, I hear something I like, I don't need more of a reason to like it. It's kinda the same with issue with tattoos people have (as another artistically driven culture), I use to believe in saying, "don't get something without meaning". Well some of my shittiest tattoos are the ones I thought had deep meaning and my Star Wars tattoo is just cool and colorful. We think we need deeper meaning behind everything, when it's okay to like things at a surfaces level.
2002-2014 Best years for AltPress music scene.
I think you mean…
Press Ctl Alt Del music scene
APcore
AltPress is a magazine. Not a effin genre.
@@Dime_time333 this gate opens both ways, kindly find your way out :)
At a certain point AP might as well have been a genre. Same deal with Rise-core and Sumerian-core. All the artists featured on those labels at a time sounded the exact same basically. I cast spell of experience whimsy for once in your life @Dime_time333
I remember as a teen hating BMTH, Asking Alexandria, TDWP, etc but Killswitch Engage, Bullet For My Valentine, All That Remains were massive for me.
I was a fan of all of it. But I can't say for certain I've met a lot of people that feel that way about metal. Anything from between the buried and me to korn, my playlists are a fucking mess
Killswitch, ATR, Trivium and As I Lay Dying defined that era for me. Trivium especially were my diehard favourite band throughout the 2000s, but it just doesn't hit like it used to. Sucks to grow up and change
Killswitch Engage are the best band ever yet!!!
The Empire Shall Fall, Times Of Grace, It Dies Today & 36 Crazyfists are good too!!!
I absolutely loathed those bands you mentioned. But I agree with Killswitch Engaged BFMV and All That Remains
When Iron Maiden put synths on the Seventh son of a Seventh son record, they were regularly asked by interviewers if they were worried about iron maiden fans, being upset about keyboards, given the general attitude about them, and Bruce Dickinson said “it’s very small minded of someone to be dismissive of works of art by simply, including another voice within a complicated arrangement if it makes the song better. Maybe those types of people aren’t really iron maiden fans in the first place?”
and seventh son of a seventh son is the greatest album they ever wrote
That a real quote? If so Bruce gets another respect point 😉
Not to mention... Black Sabbath, the "godfathers" of Metal, employed keyboards on several of their classic lineup's tracks and albums. Although not a trademark sound/ instrument used throughout their overall library of music, it remains as an addition to it.
@@welfiblablabla It was a TH-cam video from that tour, I’ll post it here if I can find it
Maiden consists of actual musicians, metalcore sucks because it's predominantly breakdowns only, samey same dumbness
The thing about women in the metal/rock/alt scene is legit. And 100% where the term 'girly pop' with gen Z comes from.
As a millennial female who grew up in the scene, never in my life was I treated decent or as an equal by males in the community.
For example. If I wore a band tee. 100% of the time it was some gate keepy douche bag male that was telling me to 'name all their albums'
Like Never did i get that kind of third degree from females. Ever.
Which is where gen z started this whole girly pop thing. And i love it. Girls just acting like girls and calling out the muscians that rep the girlies 🥰 its great.
Shout out to artists like Rob Zombie and Johnathan Davis for reppin the girls for decades 🙌
I was bullied to no end back then. Black veil brides, get scared, asking, bmth, thirty seconds, all these bands I was seen as the most awful cringe person in my entire school. Now it’s popular and nobody judges half the time. And the style of dressing everything. But yeah back then life was hell listening to this type of music
I always felt that the note in the liner notes of RATM was put there for emphasis on Tom's creativity with the guitar, not to safeguard their credibility...
You're exactly right on this. Buckethead has a few albums with the same disclaimer. To let you know all those crazy laser beam robot noises are in fact being done with the guitar.
I thought the same thing when this was mentioned on the video. At the time it was a novelty to have all those sounds come from an actual guitar - and also good to note that since he was emulating these sounds in the first place, he was actually accepting those as legit sounds in a rock and metal context.
Agree
Not only was I thinking that about RATM, but I'm pretty sure the note on the Cannibal Corpse album was due to the fact that vocals were so inhumanly guttural and novel for their time. While it may have lent to their "credibility" in a sense, it felt as if it were in the same vein of RATM, to emphasize the ability on display that might easily be mistaken for something else.
Well said.
Thanks for the Monsters mention! We wrote The Righteous Dead EP when we were still teenagers. Paid for it fully ourselves and printed cds! Appreciate everyone who still listens ❤
Still sounds sick to my ears!
you guys has a sick stage presence too, with those windbreakers!!
@@gabrielbarbosa5489 and those matching shirts with different rune/symbols for each dude, so dope. That album still slaps.
When I think of metacore I think of Killswitch, Norma Jean, ABR, Underoath, All that remains, trivium etc
These all seem to be a different category as the MySpace Metalcore genre.
Are they two categories or one?
Same
"metalcore" is a quite broad genre since its just hardcore combined with metal: and both hardcore and metal themselves are broad genres. Some metalcore bands blends more straight forward hardcore with death metal, other bands combine post-hardcore with glam metal; or whatever.
Most metalcore bands have other genres listed along side metalcore on their wiki page. Often the "myspace metalcore" bands will have "pop rock", "hard rock" or "post hardcore" listed. Although, norma jean is also listed as "post hardcore" and they do not have that same vibe.
yeah one is good the other suck XD (JK)
Some of these you could also consider Post Hardcore (Underoath) or Mathcore (Norma Jean) but genre names tend to fail quite often ;)
I think one side was mainly just there to be played too loud in mall Hot Topics, and the other was full of innovators cobbling together an emergent genre. 🫠
Great Video. I am almost 30 at the time of writing this and when I was in my early teens, a lot of my peers started listening to metalcore and I couldn’t stand it, purely because I thought it was trendy.
Fast forward to 2018 where a lot of metal core bands had finally stood the test of time and I grew a whole new appreciation for the genre.
Loved what you had to say about the whole reaction from media, as well as innovation in general.
Gotten into many arguments back in high school that revolved around whether a band was heavy enough to not be considered "pussy shit". Vividly remember my friends throwing a hissy fit in a pit when BMTH didn't play Pray For Plagues at a show (they just released "there is a hell"). But the funniest part about these people, is they would completely write off a band they "loved" the second they made a song that wasn't "brutal" or w.e. Oh no! Singing! How taboo! So gay! Meanwhile we all were wearing nut hugger jeans and deep V neck shirts. It was a funny time to experience.
Bro calling us gay for our sick ass style, felt like a flashback
Was funny to read btw not mad lol
@@jcfontaine0017 for real seeing these bands in the video brought me right back!
XxBr00talxX**
Fixed it for ya
bro my v neck is SO deep
Funnily enough, as a so-called "metal elitist," I never hated metalcore. Early metalcore bands like Zao and As I Lay Dying were some of my gateway metal bands, and because much of the early metalcore bands were heavily influenced by hardcore punk and melodic death metal, I loved them. It was when they started adding pop sounds and became kinda emo like that I was like, "naw not for me anymore."
What is your opinion on modern metalcore bands like wage war or bring me the horizon? (when they were metalcore )
@@jeux2322 Bring me the horizon is way to over produced.
The "Boyband with breakdown" argument is real.
If you grew up on metal, HC / punk...you cant get into this emo stuff... and here in germany we have "Heaven shall burn" and that is peak metalcore in my opinion.
@@westphalianstallion4293 Heaven shall burn are gods!
@@TheSimonHxC Have you seen them "unplugged" here on youtube?
facts
You keep me sane fent. I’m 35 but feel like i’m still in high school in the most nostalgic, best way when I watch your videos about that time period in my life.
Bingo.
Attack Attack!’’s musical “legitimacy” was not called into question because of their daring refusal to adhere to metal conventions. AA was horrendous live and provided a never-ending source of LolCow drama
This. I almost died laughing seeing them at warped tour. Also didn't help they tried calling themselves hardcore aswell 😂
@@crowing3886 The bassist came out as gay, then said god cured him. The second singer was a Rosie ODonnell doppelganger
Finn, I hope you see this.. this video was so good. You do this so perfectly. I honestly believe you deserve so much more popularity for doing these type of videos. It helps people learn more history in music. I love it. I hope you can find the passion to keep it up but ultimately. Make yourself happy man
As someone who listened to Rush growing up I wasn't bothered by synth's. Children of Bodom's Janne Wirman showed up, and man that dude can slay on the keys.
Bodom are a metal band unlike core bands though
Synths and electronic elements in metal can sound good if it's complementory. Melodic Death Metal bands have been using it forever.
The problem with these post hardcore scenekid bands is that the electronic or synthy parts didn't complement the music. They were used like completely disconnected birdges between breakdowns which had no connection or resembles to any motif in a song.
all my friends from back in the day who listened to metalcore became cops :(
tough guy metalcore :P
😂 says more about you and your friends than the metalcore bud
☹️
@@microchrist6122 sad but true
wow, Well I loved it and i ain't a cop ;)
imagine had i been your friend I'd have been to logically dissenter
Metalcore brought the shorties though (i was in middle/highschool)
Interesting how this is in past tense, I’m not into metalcore, so I’m wondering what changed?
@@VintageBalderdash the scene kids from back then got older and gen z didn't care for the style/a lot of bands changed their sound. People shit on this kinda metalcore but it was the last time an alt youth subculture was popular with teens
It was so popular when I was in middle school and then slowly faded afterwards by the time I graduated high school. My friends and myself were already bored and tired of the same classic metal bands that we were into. So when this subgenre came and evolved over time it gave a fresh perspective to the whole scene in my opinion. It wasn’t the basic well known bands and music that was already out. The metal ore communities was actually fun, upbeat and welcoming to new metal music listeners. Literally every single band had similar qualities with the sound but the lyrics were what sent them apart. If you wanted to see a metal band you went to a show, however with most mainstream metal ore bands you went all over for local shows and festivals such as Warped Tour for example.
As I Lay Dying, All That Remains, Unearth, Shadows Fall, Lamb of God, In Flames, and for me, an extra special place for Parkway Drive, are the soundtrack of my disfunctional dirt bag teenage years.
In Flames is 100% Melo Death
In flames and Lamb of God were not and have not ever been metalcore. In Flames may suck ass, but don't reduce it to the level of metalcore.
@@revment People seem to forget about those early metalcore bands getting the NWOAHM label along with a lot of groove metal bands, that's how LoG ended up getting called that.
Add ABR in there and just about perfect lineup ... I would maybe substitute shadows fall for bullet
@@revmentParkway Drive is also not, nor have they ever been metalcore.
"Stick Stickly" will forever be iconic. I miss that time so much. Argue with a wall.
I recently bought a house that my friends and I used to rent when we were younger. All the partying we did and blah blah, it's a nostalgic spot and back then for some reason we called the place "the crab". In honor, when I moved back in I named the wifi network "stick stickly" and the password is "somedaycamesuddenly"
I'm real proud of that decision 😂😂😂
I think it is an absolute piece of fucking trash.
But, I do applaud them for making something that makes you go what the fuck so hard. And you can't deny that there is talent in the song. It is not a bad song, technically.
@@DeathBlocks nah its fire as fuck your just not with the wave
I grew out of metalcoreca a long time ago, once I’ve learned there’s this thing called punk rock. But I will always accredit Asking Alexandria for making me interested in music back in the day. Before that I wasn’t really into anything.
I'd go on a limb and say even older metalcore fans weren't down with this era. Myself, included...
Yep. Don't think there was too much crossover between early Lamb of God/Killlswitch/God Forbid fans and Attack Attack.
I make this point in a comment above. I'm an old battle vest wearing metalhead and I love some metalcore - but once some of the bands and the scene generally morphed into poppy mallcore it was just awful.
Love both old and modern metalcore and a huge fan of electronic music myself that I dabbled in producing EDM, but yeah I never really like the electroniccore/synthcore phase of metalcore. Most of the songs were just badly produced and written. The reason the songs don't have chorus is probably because they didn't know how to write and arrange an actual song with structure and just went with whatever they thought sound good
Yeah I wasn’t at first it grew on me I was more into older underoath, as I lay dying and unearth
Yep I personally wasn't a fan of the boyband era bands for a long time. Recently I've found a few songs from those bands more appealing but never anywhere near the level of KSE, All That Remains, Parkway Drive, Trivium and LoG.
This all reminds me of why I never got deep into any scene. I grew up listening to metal - started with Slipknot and eventually found my way toward Cannibal Corpse and other death and some black metal bands. I didn't look "metal" at all. I wore Abercrombie and Hollister with New Balance on my feet, had short hair - kinda preppy. I guess I was proof that no matter the genre, music is for everyone.
This is crazy to me because the metalcore I was into was like Unearth, Killswitch, God Forbid, Shadows Fall, and Misery Signals. Why does that era of metalcore directly before the crabcore era never get mentioned lol
EXACTLY. Every time he talks about metalcore I'm like what? Haha we called everything from the scene "posthardcore" so that's how I always think of these bands
Man, SAME there - it physically cringes me to hear him describing these bands as metalcore. Such label was used for bands with clear heavy metal influences where riffs were meeting melodies - I'd add names like Bullet for My Valentine, All That Remains, Atreyu, Avenged Sevenfold etc to your list. Band from this vid were called electronicore or post-hardcore
I used to think the metalcore critique was towards the bands you've mentioned, now I get the point where metal fans and critics hated metalcore 😅
It was a very broad genre. I love all those bands and many other that were considered "metal core"...As I lay Dying, old Parkway drive etc.
Metalcore to me is KSE, All That Remains and the other bands you mentioned and bands of that nature . That's metalcore to me. 💯
I can’t help but love the weird kid in the Metallica shirt ranting about “Justin Beaver” 😆
At least it was Metallic'a 80's logo so there's some credibility there lol
I'm 55, and looking back I couldn't stand Metalcore at the start. So I just stuck with the typical 'Butt Rock', Grunge, Thrash, Hardcore. Now I have to say it's my favorite genre. Could it be I'm having a midlife crisis? Maybe a little bit, maybe not. Maybe it's listening to Octane and relying on Spotify recommendations? Probably. Or maybe the bands that have been around the longest have learned what works and what doesn't and have excelled to a point where their sound has peaked. Or it's a combination of all of that. My Rock/Metal tastes are all over the board. Last night was a sold out Dayseeker show with Silent Planet, Rain City Drive, and Avoid. Next show I go to is Spite, Bodysnatcher, Thrown, and Mouth for War. And I'm really looking forward to it. Mostly because of Thrown, that band is blowing up, and with good reason. Their sound really hits a sweet spot for me!
Dayseeker's last acoustic album is rock solid. When you're old enough, it's perfectly fine to burn your ears with Nails or Meshuggah and then listen to Dayseeker. No one gives a shit, you just enjoy the music...
@@th3cha1rmak3r I agree, it's great, and I love Rory's cover of 'My Immortal' it was superb. What I listen to is generally what suits my mood at the time, like I'm sure many do. Music is my therapy. Funny you mention Meshuggah, I finally saw them live for the first time when they recently toured with In Flames, who I absolutely love.
I can remember going to see Alesana’s headliner in 2009 and seeing Asking Alexandria and Enter Shikari for the first time. What a fucking time to be alive. Probably like 40 of us packed in a basement of rocketown in Nashville. The whole boy band kind of makes sense now that you say that because even though I am in my 30’s, I still enjoy bands such as Sleep Token, Bad Omens, Chase Atlantic, Beartooth, Halestorm, and other “girly” music. But hey I’m a straight dude and always see plenty of women at the shows I go to. 😅
I was at that same show lol. After seeing Asking Alexandria that night it was obvious they’d be the next big thing.
Seeing this after your last video is a welcome breath of fresh air. You're sounding passionate and like your having fun. For me, this style of Metalcore is something I'm not able to get into pop or artists like the Weekend. I have nothing against the artists, but this genre simply isn't for me, and that's okay.
I feel the same way about it. I tried but could never really get into bands like Attack Attack, Asking Alexandria, I See Stars, Of Mice and Men, The Devil Wears Prada even though I was a teenager then. This whole boyband with screams thing was real and I thought the music was wack with the whiny, autotuned cleans and heartbreak lyrics. Plus I thought they looked rather feminine and weak the way they dressed.
That thing with the synths reminded me when people cried over Iron Maiden using them in somewhere in time and seventh son and also that repeated when 90's black metal bands used them. it's as old as time and your point about the art and the means to create it is so valid!
As someone who loves traditional forms of Metal and doesn't really enjoy Hardcore - the mix is obviously going to be off putting. I mean why mix something I like with something I don't like?
But the thing is - I always listen to Metalcore with an open mind and find some bands I genuinely love. Trivium being the foremost example. I think they're one of the FEW Metalcore bands that get embraced by the elitists.
Yeah bands like Integrity, Converge, Heaven Shall Burn, Trivum, Unearth, Lamb of God and Shai Hulud got some love from the metal elitists
Dude I’m so glad you noticed the no chorus thing too!! I remember when my friends started showing me the MySpace style metalcore and I knew something was off structurally. Going from traditional metal that had intros/verse/chorus etc… to just a 3 minute mash up of music lol. As blood runs black had a lot of 3 minute mash ups lol
1. Killswitch Engage 👑
2. The Empire Shall Fall
3. Times Of Grace
4. It Dies Today
5. 36 Crazyfists
THAT is Metalcore! And it rocks!!!
Finn: He called Attack Attack "Hot Topic fatties"...
Me: HAHAHA😂😂
Finn:... which was a mean and not cool thing to say
Me: **ahem** of course, of course🧐
Th wee to🎉😅
But he wasn't wrong
Def back then, but look at caleb shomo now. Look at johnny franck. All these guys just went for it and have continued to grow.
Maybe you could try a "What went wrong", interview with bands or industry people. Or a debacle tier list. Or a scene tier list by state or region. 😮
Growing up in the local scene in AZ during the myspace era is something I'd love to sit down and talk with you about. It's a time of my life that I will forever hold dear in my heart. Please let me know.
Damn where did the scene go? I was born in 07, and there are no punk or metal shows in Tucson 🥲
I moved here(az) in 2007. The places I went to for shows was the Marque and the clubhouse. I been to all few shows the Nile theater and of course there was Edge fest.
@@josephinemoro75 Hell yeah. Same here. Now I'm wondering if you were one of the same few frequent faces that I had seen. haha
@@malegria9641 This music culture can only still be around if you and a collective group of like minded people come together to make this happen. The amount of raw talent that came from the Az music scene was incredible for that time. So many great bands came from the scene. The entire decade of '01- 10 was filled with kids that were pop/punk, nu metal, goth, ravers, emo scene kids. You couldn't go anywhere without seeing them around. Tempe, mesa, chandler, phx, everywhere. Here's a list of local bands that I supported in the scene that were still in high school and fresh out. Eyes Set To Kiil, blessthefall, The Word Alive, Greeley Estates, Scary kids Scaring Kids, Lydia....the list goes on and on.
@@Veany probably!! First one in last one out! Hahhaa
Monsters shout out hell yeah! I remember seeing those guys at the El Torian back in like 2009. I got to meet the vocalist briefly, he seemed like a humble dude. Good video!
Used to know Brandon Schiapetti from Bleeding Through, via his gym, where I was a member before I moved up to Washington. Great guy! Never did warm up to Metalcore, for the exact reasons you mentioned, but Brandon is seriously a good dude.
Humans hate change…
*Conservative humans hate change.
True, they will often only accept through great crisis or chaos
It's weird bc I hated the crabcore wave of bands, but not really for any of the reasons you mentioned. I enjoyed other bands that used synths or mashed up genres. I just kinda hated the entire aesthetic of crabcore/scenecore.
Punk influence on metal has been a thing longer than most peolle realize. First NWOBHM took some punk influence (even being independent) and was a reaction to the decline of 70s heavy metal. A bit later thrash metal (and soon crossover thrash with even more hardcore punk influence). Motorhead was considered one of first band who combined metal and punk.
Even the first Metallica album sounds A LOT like a hardcore punk/metal mashup.
Motörhead were combining (proto-) punk and metal before both of those genres even had names.
Thrash Metal and Hardcore Punk are first cousins.
why I love both
Metalcore was and still is my all time favorite subgenre. I have absolutely no problem admitting that I’ll always be a core kid. That being said, I love music in general and don’t limit myself to just one genre or subgenre.
It feels like there is a lot of variation within the sub genre of metalcore. I’m definitely not a fan of a lot of the “MySpace metalcore” but I’d say metalcore is my absolute favorite genre because when I think metalcore I think Killswitch engage, all that remains, as I lay dying, trivium, bullet for my valentine, and Phinehas. I feel the musicianship for the bands I mentioned blows the MySpace bands out of the water in terms of skill, variety, and melody. It’s just wild that metal is so broad that one can argue that a lot of its subgenres could have subgenres.
Other than the 5 death metal elitists at my high school, I didn't experience the hatred for metalcore until the later bands like Attack Attack, TDWP, Asking Alexandria etc. I remember everyone collectively liking Killswitch and As I Lay Dying, the pre-2008 metalcore before it got weird.
Because Killswitch is really good at mixing metal and hardcore, TDWP was not and came off like crap.
Bands like Killswitch, Unearth, The Agonist, Bleeding Through, Trivium, did look at the metal side as on cool. Which is why would more then likely find guitar solos with those bands. Those bands would also be turing with actually metal bands like Dark Tranquility, Epica, Children of Bodom, Eluveitie, etc.
@@evacody1249 Yeah it's weird, I don't think I really considered the Attack Attack, TDWP and Asking Alexandria type bands as metalcore back in the day. I didn't really know exactly what it was, I always thought of them as crabcore or breakdown core but I didn't group them together with bands like Killswitch, As I Lay Dying and August Burns Red that all had that more traditional metalcore sound.
I actually love the complete lack of choruses on Number[s]. I don't know why, it just makes it feel like a super long sorta prog song.
The second album also has no choruses, only after that did they start including them.
Number[s] is so good, very bouncy I like to call it.
I was one of the haters back then, after I was a participator:
I enjoyed the fresh air in the alt scene with new song structures, those breakdowns that later reminded me of dubstep drops, and new voices and sounds in general. What I didn't like was the ignorance of many new bands and the fans. Metalcore combining metal and hardcore punk, but nobody wanted to listen of either of them. Nobody draw inspiration from old punk or recent metal. Metalcore bands influenced metalcore bands.
And this trend can be seen even today. What has changed since 2008? The guitar sounds are dirtier, more djent, more breakdowns, more post-production. I don't condone metalcore for having its own identity. It's just a sour taste from way back then that still doesn't sit right with me. With that, whenever someone says "breakdowns are metal", I have to intervene. Breakdowns are very metalcore. And metalcore is its own thing with its own identity. And that's cool. Just don't try to be different to Bad Religion and Slayer, and then tell me you're part of both. Honestly, no. All I want is more new stuff, more influences, more change. More experimentation in the alt scene!
Inb4 "Slayer literally has a breakdown in Raining Blood" bro yes I know shut up just because Dream Theater wrote a symphony doesn't mean they're viennese school.
I was completely burnt out on heavy music around the time metal core started and aside from a small handful of bands (Candiria, Converge, DEP are the big 3) and old school death metal, I had no idea the genre existed. I only “saw” the genre, never heard it. Unfortunately that also meant that I missed out on OG deathcore. I think I’d have really liked that when it came out.
To me, metalcore is Killswitch Engage, All That Remains, Shadows Fall, Diecast, As I Lay Dying, Trivium, Bullet For My Valentine, a bit of Five Finger Death Punch.
When bands like BMTH and Asking Alexandria came out [no pun], they did not make sense to me, let alone Attack Attack and other dancy stuff. Only later, like in the mid-2010s, I kind of started to enjoy their music, mostly because of Sempiternal and From Death to Destiny records. However, some of the songs, like Can You Feel My Heart, felt so annoying to me because they were everywhere around.
Now I appreciate a lot more this subgenre. It took some time for musicians and producers alike to figure out how to make boybands and breakdowns work together.
That whole point about metalheads being traditionists is kinda right, but really kinda wrong. Metalheads are traditionalists, but not about which instruments are in the songs. There has been a million bands that have used synths in interesting ways that are accepted: Dio, Emperor, B*zum, Children of Bodom, Rammstein, etc. Even bands that use the sax are getting favorable reviews from the media like RIvers of Nihil, White Ward. I hear bands with pan flutes, and weird eastern European instruments I can't name. No one cares about that.
The part about autotune and drum triggers I agree with. Metalheads are traditionalists about the authenticity of the work.
But like, I think the bigger point is that metal heads tend to think of themselves as purists.
@@DaKwirkyKirkyTHIS!
I got into crossover thrash through Municipal Waste around the same time metalcore was getting popular. They're both metal/punk hybrids, but very different scenes.
And then we got: Municipal Waste + Darkest Hour = Iron Reagan.
I bloody adored metalcore. As someone who was never a classic rocker, metalhead, emo or punk, it just clicked with me. Okay, not Attack Attack or Asking Alexandria, but a lot of these bands still hold up well. Converge deserve a lot of street cred. And as a genre, it has its own subgenres split between the 90s, 00s, 10s and 20s. It might have never hit the uber success of classic, thrash, glam or alternative metal and other rock genres, but it deserves its own praise. I'll never get sick of Misery Signals, pre-2020 Architects or Killswitch. 2006 Myspace presented some music I could never find on the radio or TV (especially growing up in the UK) and I've never grown out of it. Enter Shikari and Dividing the Line influenced late 2000s metalcore with EDM sounds. Let’s face it, anyone who doesn't understand the influence that metalcore has had on heavy music is lying to themselves for whatever lame reason.
Attack Attack holds up extremely well imo, I still listen to them
Misery Signals is such a perfect Band
I've been a Metalhead since 2009, I'm 29 now and I've gotten interested in all the subgenres of Metal. I went from FFDP(whether you like them or not they got me into Metal and Hard Rock. I got into heavier bands like, Napalm Death, Meshuggah, Periphery, Cattle Decapitation and more.. Metalcore and Deathcore were great in the 2010. Some Metalcore and Deathcore bands are still cool today. Like I See Stars, Ice Nine Kills, Asking Alexandria, BMTH, Veil Of Maya, Attila, Emmure Abandon All Ships, Devil Wears Prada, and Attack Attack!
I don't care who hates what I like, I'm going to enjoy what I like while you're hating. Those were and still my thoughts 😂
The real metalcore was the early-mid 2000's bands that still had actual metal riffs with lots of harmonised leads & solos such as your Trivium's, BFMV, Killswitch etc. (I'm not naming them all but we all know the stuff/sound I'm referring to). The later more breakdown-centric stuff such as your Asking Alexandrias & Memphis May Fires & such should've been labelled something else really...as people have pointed out there's a lot more of a post hardcore influence there as opposed to traditional heavy metal & thrash influences.
As a lifelong metal head, I've never understood the "genre wars". At the end of the day you like what you like, I like what I like, we're all metal heads and have lot more in common than not. It's just more media drive tribalism written by a bunch of quacks who are envious of those actually creating art.
Yeah, I just said basically the same thing elsewhere. Maybe things got different, but in my day being a DC hardcore kid, nobody “hated” metal guys or bands, especially since metal was definitely making its way into the music at the time. I always felt like bands would get more “metal” as they got better at their instruments and that it was a pretty fluid line as to what was even hardcore or metal when you had bands like black flag and the bad brains sounding pretty “metal.” Nor did anyone I know dog on anyone for looking “metal” or whatever.
Then you've missed the point of metal being an outsider subculture.
@@paulhilton6426 - Well wait, what about him not really finding much meaning in the lines which are drawn within metal and the purported factions within it is somehow misunderstanding “metal’s” outsider subculture? He’s not saying, “hey - you like Katy Perry and I like Slayer, who cares it’s all music!” Must metal’s outsider subculture get so fractured and granular that even sub-sub-subcultures demand loyalty and purity?
Cause dang - I like Darkthrone and Taake, Green Lung and Sleep, 3 Inches of Blood and Priest, the F’ing Champs and the Stormtroopers of Death and I’d find it weird at this point to judge an artistic effort on the degree to which it matches genre-convention instead of whether it is appealing and potentially disregarding something because it’s not “blackened doom” enough and that’s what’s real only.
@b.w.22 Sorry, my comment was too brief to be meaningful. I took umbrage with the original comment's over simplification, then foolishly responded with one of my own. I'm busy right now, I'll explain myself a little clearer later tonight.
@@paulhilton6426 - Hey man, no worries. I appreciate the reply and am genuinely curious about your take, whenever it is that you get the time to do so. If it’s tomorrow at this same time or even in a week, I’ll take note, as I definitely lack useful insight on the current and historical metal scene and why it is so often described as, I dunno, clannish?
Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful reply so far. Edit: If I’ve myself oversimplified or misrepresented the nature of anything, please just chalk it up to a degree of ignorance on my part regarding metal’s fandom and culture and, really, the values that animate it. For instance, I’ve seen folks defend “Baby Metal” pretty vigorously like they’re more than just a kind of J/K “music product” and are, in fact, “legit” as artists and in the view of some, I guess, doing something akin to GWAR? Just personally, strong disagree.
While I do agree that the metal old guard tends to be way too caustic when expressing their opinion on this stuff, their position is totally understandable. A lot of metal was born out of being a sort of counterculture to pop, so when people are into metal for that reason, of course they're going to be upset when all of a sudden there's a big movement bringing in what they had spent years avoiding. And I wouldn't totally write off them hating the music as purely a "new thing bad" type of perspective. A good part of the reason people got into metal was for the fusion of aggression and a more demanding approach to instrumentation. The melodic riffs of metalcore were often just seen as watered down melodic death metal riffs. Electronic and keyboard elements in metal were not mindblowing or new, so the seemingly random insertion of rave sections were just seen as a worse take on what was already there. When they're otherwise really into the type of breakdowns Suffocation and Dying Fetus would do, they're going to find a bunch of teenagers filling their songs with single note chugs to be pretty amateurish. Boiling it down to traditionalism is a bit reductive, a lot of them did genuinely find it to be regressive.
But ya know, live and let live. It's not like poppier metalcore and more traditional kinds of metal can't coexist in the world. There are still plenty of vocal dickheads out there, but I feel these days people are okay with just staying in their lanes.
Even though I started my modern metal journey with metalcore even I hate it. It started with Trivium, Killswitch Engage, Dry Kill Logic and Bullet for Valentine… I blinked quickly fell into bands like Lamb of God, Behemoth, Dimmu Borgir, Black Dahlia Murder and Devil Driver
For me, metalcore was easy to jump into because it rides a good line between alt rock and metal.
What made it get old for me fast was the shallow vocals, and how every metalcore band seemed to get more pop and less metal with every release (A7X is talented but look through their discography and you’ll hear exactly what I mean)
P.S. the best blend of metal and electronic music I’ve heard was Daath - the Hinderers
Man that took me back to 2005 miss that era
@@MrDragonkarp every day is 1975,1985,1995 and 2005 when it comes to metal in my playlist
and a big RIP to Trevor Strnad of Black Dahlia Murder. That actually hurt my feelings
I'm a 00s baby (2000 exactly) and I absolutely love metalcore, and most of my peers who are into metal love metalcore and deathcore
Attack Attack was ground breaking. Spawned Bear Tooth and Bill Muri. It was a whole vibe as the kids say.
My favorite thing to come out of this in the last ten years has to be Belmont/Capstan/Like Pacific and the blend of Post Hardcore/Pop punk we got.
As far as Metalcore I think the culture just shifted, TSSF being a prime example.
3:50 House parties in 08 with scene girls. You just had to be there 😂
They always barfed and stole ciggies
@@gymnoisehahahahahaha so true
I was truly born in the wrong generation :/
@@lightningmonky7674 same man
@@gymnoiseBROOOOOO 😂😂😂 1000000% accurate. Can I get a snap off you? No you can ask that dude over there for some weed.
I first heard metalcore in 2002 when a stranger in a metal chat room suggested Poison the Well to me. I downloaded A Wish for Wings that Work on Kazaa. I was blown away. I showed all my friends who would listen. I listened to those first three albums non stop. Ugh... good times
Nerdy is definitely on a 2003 mix CD I made for my now spouse.
I saw the video for “Botchla”, sent me over the rails, I LOVED IT
When I was a teenager I hated that music, and everything related to the emo scene/aesthetic, I remember having discussions on internet on how bad this scene was, "it's a disgrace to rock and metal". I was that edgy guy who wanna be different. Only recently, thanks to your videos, I realized that actually it wasn't that bad, and since I am a fan of At The Gates I right now enjoy a lot of metalcore and deathcore bands. Thanks Finn I appreciate a lot your content, you say a lot of hard thruts that nobody talks.
I’m 52 and grew up on Kiss through my slightly older cousin. My best friend got me into Megadeth and Accept and I got myself into Iron Maiden and so many others. I was into hair metal (of course) and I’ve always loved straight rock like Jefferson Airplane/Starship and Aerosmith, as well as pop like Men At Work and early techno like Gary Neuman. So when I first heard metalcore, like a lot of haters, I didn’t appreciate it. I also loathed the look and still do. But the music grew on me and now I regularly listen to Asking Alexandria, Motionless in White, and a bunch of others. As I’ve gotten older I’ve realized life is too short to be some kind of myopic gatekeeper on art. Music changes. It has to. Younger people with different life experiences and perceptions build the new sounds. I’d be a fool not to sit back and appreciate what new genre comes along. Broadening the horizons is all important to a happy life.
I still vividly remember hearing “Reptar, King of the Ozone” by The Devil Wears Prada for the first time in 2008 when my friend’s brother showed it to me. We thought it was hilarious and really only listened to it ironically. A few years pass by, and I’m actually listening to TDWP, We Came As Romans, and Bring Me the Horizon. Fast forward to today and there’s no denying that a lot of those bands are more popular than ever, especially when you include Caleb Shomo and Johnny Franck from Attack Attack now that they’re in Beartooth and Bilmuri. You have to give them credit to longevity.
RATM wrote that comment on their album sleeve: 07:10 not because they wanted to claim or clarify to their fans they were purists, they did that because a lot of their songs do sound like they use a synth or samples due to Morello's unique guitar playing.
It feels disingenuous when you say otherwise because you probably know full well what the real reason would have been for that message on the sleeve.
Yeah I was going to say that too! They wanted to make sure that people knew that Tom was doing that all on guitar.
Yeah, okay, but the sentiment behind it is basicly the same. "Oh no no no, don't dislike us, we're really not using any samples"; as if it were a bad thing if it were.
@@zomgsekk I mean it kinda is to most fans of heavy stuff. Synths really do trigger the "gay" feeling and if you say otherwise I simply don't believe you. Cue jokes about me feeling a gay feeling for synth as if you don't know what I mean.
They actually wrote that because using synth has long been thought of as gay, as Finn rightly called out being the word of choice. If you took it as a sincere display I'm sorry you completely missed the snarky tone and didn't have the historic context in music to immediately know why they were saying it.
@@zomgsekk It isn't the same at all.
lmao....I love that you uploaded this video right after your last one. The title is great!
Saying that he first heard of metalcore in 2008 is late as fuck... Like to the extent that Killswitch had already been put in a guitar hero game, which means that they and the genre were popular enough to warrant that.
He also goes on (5:40) to call Attack, Attack a song...? I've never watched this dude before but it's pretty poor for someone who grew up in the punk/hardcore/metal scene like myself.
The anti-keyboards, -synthesisers and -experimentation is, though, very much an American metal and punk rock movement. European metal artists have experimented with keyboards and synths from the '70s and '80s onwards, eg Deep Purple, Iron Maiden and Judas Priest, and Punk-influenced bands did so too, eg The Dammed, Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Cure and Joy Division. Nowadays, European artists like Asking Alexandria, Bring Me the Horizon and Amaranthe are in the vanguard of going beyond just the drums, bass and guitar in 'eavy rock.
I do miss the days of taking a smoke drive with friends and blaring Asking Alexandria, TDWP, BMTH, Woe Is Me, etc. Good times.
I never understood metalheads hating some of these bands for wearing skinny jeans and have fancy hair as if thrash metal wasn’t doing the same thing basically.
Another thing I didn’t understand at the time was metalheads would hate these bands but loved Killswitch, All That Remains. As I Lay Dying, etc.
When metalcore got popular, it was fun and different. I don’t call myself a metalhead anymore, but a metal fan.
From my experience alot of the old school metal guys loved metalcore. When Poison the Well, Evergreen Terrace, Killswitch, Unearth etc started gaining traction in the late 90s/early 2ks, everyone was stoked that heavy music was having a moment. When it shifted to scene bands is when people started to hate and IMO rightfully so. Whiney vocals and girls pants started to become intertwined with breakdowns and the scene got lame. It was a far fall from the bands that put metalcore on the map. I can speak for myself and many others when I say we didn't want whiney, nasally badly sung vocals in "heavy" music. Obviously there were a few outliers that were good at that style but as a whole it was lame.
Yeah the emo singing is what killed it for me. I'd start listening to a band and would think I like it then an emo-ey chorus would come up and I'd be done with that band.
It is kinda funny nowadays because I go back to some bands I used really like and realize it was more emo then I remembered so IDK if it was just certain emo vocals or if I didn't like a band for some subconscious reason and blamed it on the whiney vocals.
@@HellfireEternal I love plenty of Emo and Post Hardcore bands. I just didn't want it in my heavy and very few bands I've heard can actually pull it off. The whinier the vocals, the more I disliked it.
Didnt help that the switch happened like 5 years. A lot of "This is metalcore...this is also metalcore" "THE FUCK IT ISNT" type of conversations. Metalcore has got so many conflicting split personalities that are all angry that the others turned up.
I first listened to Poison the Well when a pen pal would send me song clips from them in '99. he shared PTW with me, and I shared Zao with him. I saw Evergreen Terrace live years ago back when they were younger. Great band. I saw Unearth a couple years later with the loudest breakdowns in a club I've heard. Good stuff.
@@fehner27 Being from FL, I was lucky enough to see PTW, ET, Shai Hulud and alot of the bands that were early in the metalcore years. Saw Evergreen open for the Suicide Machines in Jax w Catch 22. Saw an ET record release show with As I Lay Dying, Sworn Enemy, On Broken Wings and a few others also. Saw Misery Signals touring Malice at a small club. Saw Unearth at same small club. August Burns red played two tiny places in Daytona and the list goes on. It was a cool time in music.
As I lay dying was metalcore and was respected by the metal community
Just because they've never used emos voices 😂 Killswitch engage as well
Or any metalcore band with more "metal elements" than core. Maybe Trivium as well?
@@gx1tar1er OH yea that was my era Shadows Fall, As I lay dying, Trivium, Killswitch engage, Lamb of God each one with a different flavor that made them unique
@@MrDragonkarp mine too g, I graduated high school in 08 so that was my jam!
As I lay crying
Grew up on hard rock.
I still remember the day my cousin played to plant a seed from we came as Romans when I was like 12. Changed my entire outlook on music
I love a lot of metalcore bands, and i genuinely loved how Enter Shikari incorporated electronic stuff. My uncles band was/is based out of ohio and somewhat influential in the christian branch of the scene, Signed to Tooth and Nail, contemporaries with Zao, Underoath, Tantrum Of The Muse, etc, so i was lucky enough to grow up with an appreciation for it. Metalcore was my gateway to death metal, tech death, power metal, etc...but man, by the time i was 14 it seemed like the clones of those earlier bands came out of nowhere, and kinda sapped the fun out of it. Next thing you know there are over 40 Chugga-Chuggas-wee-wee breakdowns per hour at any given festival, and suddenly all the clean vocals had that Burt McCracken post-hardcore "screamo" sound. It got boring, and grating. It felt like most of the fan-base were former pop-punk kids who had no appreciation for the metal bands that were playing alongside these groups, let alone the ones that influenced the bands that broke big in the 00's-10's. Metalcore was done dirty IMO, by record companies that wanted it to be the new pop punk and absolutely by the fans and the media.
When I was a teenage punk music elitist, I only hated it because it felt so clean, sanitized, and packaged like something you would go buy at Target. I was all about being authentic, “real”, and raw. Also, the anger I heard inside my head sounded more like the extreme, crusty, hardcore stuff rather than anything remotely like Bullet for my Valentine.
Just went to a metalcore / nu metal show with 5 bands brand new and old. And my god the amount of young women and guys there was so much higher than old dudes at the deathmetal shows I've been too. At probably a majority in their 20s-30s and a probably nearing 40/60 split in gender.
Turns out seeing new women fronting bands or listening to songs about partying or having charismatic frontment appeals to a younger more diverse crowd.
What's your point? Go to a Taylor swift show, you'll see way more young girls and guys.When I write songs I'm not thinking about if teenage chicks are into it.
I started going to metal shows in my late teens and 20's, around 2016-18 i was going to my first few shows before i started going to one or two a month.
Definitely have noticed that even states over fron my own city, metalcore shows have bigger + younger crowds, where deathmetal shows were a lot smaller + older
I grew up in Massachusetts and in the early 2000s metalcore revolved around the Worcester Palladium, it was a palpable scene every weekend the place was packed with teens from all over New England. It was an amazing time to be.
See I love metalcore till this day honestly even though I’m 21 now but back in middle school metalcore was the one the most amazing thing to me honestly. I don’t see the problem with girls or women who like metalcore or deathcore etc. there’s no reason to gatekeeping them tbh. It’s still amazing to me as a proud metalcore fan but this is my opinion.
I feel like you can boil this whole thing down to, the singers were too pretty and most bands didn’t fit what the scene saw as the archetype. Also many of the bands were selling clothing lines at the bringing of the internet era something people weren’t really open to yet. and also these bands were not afraid to do the corny covers.
Also a majority of the backlash of Metalcore was mostly the 2008-2013 wave which was mostly edgelord scene cringe and image over substance which was kind of valid/aged like milk and one of the worst eras of Metalcore (Stuff like this is the reason I listened to a lot of European Metal until 2014 when that stuff died down)
Looking to revisit a lot of metal core. Getting nostalgia about that era nowadays. So thanks for reading my mind and covering this Finn
Metalcore killed Punk Rock in those years, even me, I've stoped to listen Nofx, Lagwagon... to listen Escape the fate etc till 2016 😂
The first band I ever heard was underoath when they’re only chasing safety was out and it was a good start off band for people in general if you never heard music like that before. So when I heard them I went down a rabbit hole and when attack attack came out I followed them religiously on MySpace and heard every update song and vlog and they broke me into everything after that I heard asking Alexandria, TDWP, and so on. And now I’m 31 and I listen to varials slaughter to prevail and others because they all come from the same place and they share a similar feeling when hearing it and now I still listen to all the old 2000s to 2010s metalcore all the time because it was written so well and Joey sturgis set the standard for how this music needed to sound for years to come.
MY STATE STARTED THAT SHIT! Love us or hate us for it, but Massachusetts "Set the World Ablaze" with metalcore from the likes of Killswitch Engage, All That Remains , Unearth, Converge, etc
If you want good bands that still carry on this kind of sound currently: ERRA, Make Them Suffer, Periphery, Northlane, and Architects (just ignore their 2021/2022 albums lol)
Finn: "metalheads don't like bands using the 'traditional' set up of guitar, bass and drums.
Metalheads: gush over bands like Ministry, Godflesh and Nailbomb, all of which use more than just that (I'm a big fan of all three, for what its worth).
At the gates core, MySpace core, djent, but rock core, and whatever sleep token is. Metalcore is more versatile of a genre then any metal sub genre. Metalcore is also just the umbrella term for what whatever the new trendy/younger artists are making.
I hated the style, but mostly because of it’s image and it’s fanbase. Why all the guys looked like emo with their hairstyles. And also they were cute according to their female fans and it seemed that they were boy bands masquerading as metal bands.
"Boybands masquerading as metal bands." Yes, thank you!
you're just jealous they got moe chicks than you will ever get in your entire life 😂
haters gonna hate
Meanwhile me with my 14 yrs old ass back then listening to a japanese metalcore band called Fear, and loathing in las vegas my mind was blown of how they go crazy with those synths.
Those monks were right! And this is why I have never read a book in my life! I refuse to support those foul printing presses!
My main gripe with the genre has always been the "pop-boyband clean vocals" that many of them have, often with a disgusting amount of autotune or some such (terminology may be wrong). Cant stand it.
"Art critics" are the most pretentious bastards on the planet... "Oh this painting has such untild depths, it speaks to my soul", meanwhile what they are talking about is a blue horizontal line in the middle of a white painted canvas. And then some schmuck buys it for a million bucks.. and then there are sculptures that literally resemble nothing so much as a block of trash... pretentious.
awesome vid finn!
Do you plan to cover or do a killswitch engage deep dive?
Speaking for most of the guys I knew at the time, our main issue with metalcore was that it didn't seem to integrate it's disparate parts in a natural way. We were all bogans(metalhead slang in Aus/NZ) but we were into new sounds and new tech, like Nu Metal and the various collaboration soundtracks at the time. An example is how Orgy sounded like technometal but AttackAttack just had a hard techno bit in a hardcore song. That lack of natural integration really pissed us off, like really pissed us off.
The fact that you're discussing this topic, and in particular the parts about "who can say what is good or not," while wearing a bodybuilding/lifting T-shirt is simply amazing. The lifting community has these same debates with their associated trends. Good stuff and deep dive. Thank you!!
Thank you for calling out the misogyny in the metal scene, it's still well and alive today. Some things never change but people really need to call it out. Hearing people say the metal scene is so safe/kind/supportive while always dealing with gatekeeping and regressive behavior is comedic. And then of course it pushes people away from exploring more of the genre.
I love metalcore and nu metal - my 2 fav genres. I listened to the first wave though, killswitch, bury your dead, bleeding through, hatebreed, parkway, i killed the prom queen, all that remains, as i lay dying, caliban, etc. Once i heard asking alexandria i stopped listening to any new metalcore bands completely. They just all sound so generic and the same. I can listen to a couple of songs here and there but don't actually "listen" to it..
That was exactly where I stopped, too. It wasn't a conscious bias - I had no idea what they looked like or anything. But this one girl in our friend group always played scene/crabcore shit and I just couldn't vibe with it no matter how hard I tried.. maybe song structure is part of it?
It just all sounded so "same-y". I never heard anything close to AILD riffs, Howard Jones' vocals or the like. Atreyu would be the closest thing to that, prior to the MySpace era - but at least they could write some bangers.
@@gingeranagram2467 Yeah that was my problem with those bands too.
Good to know, so you are not a Metal Fan!
Finn: "metalheads don't like metal bands going beyond the usual setup of guitar, bass and drums".
Literally power metal: uses shitloads of keyboards.
Industrial metal: exists
"Metalheads" don't like either power metal or industrial metal lol
If you do, you aren't who he's talking about. I know those people he's talking about.
@@Tempo1337 power metal and industrial metal do, at least in my experience, tend to be more accepted than for example, metalcore, deathcore, and nu metal.
@@Tempo1337thats the thing hes describing all "metalheads" as these very specific tyoes of people. That sounds weird to me. As a black guy its like hearing someone say all black guys steal when its very few black guys who actually steal.
You forgot melodic death metal and keyboards. Some do, and some don't.
@@Tempo1337 but he's not talking about your 'tRvE MeTaL' elitists, who only listen to some obscure cult black metal band that has like one demo that they only sold 199 exclusive copies of and then ritually sacrificed the 200th one to Satan.
He's talking about the metal community *in general*.
And bands like Ministry, Nailbomb and Godflesh are pretty well liked by most metalheads, at least in my experience.
No one liked them, because bands like Hatebreed had already claimed the term Metalcore: A mixture between metal and hardcore.
No one liked them? So who listened to them?
@@RavageRitual1986Homosexuals?
@@RavageRitual1986 As it is with those things, it changed over the following decade or so. But in the beginning, not that many people I knew cared about that new cool music that was more than just a little bit promoted by all the magazines that still were around back then. And I am speaking of Europe here.
What's really funny is the whole MySpace band mindset is still fully alive 15 years after all of this started but now it's all over TikTok and Instagram
The boomers who say metalcore was “gay” are the same people who liked Pantera.
You ever seen how they looked at first? Lmfao
The reality is that metalcore was much less “gay” aesthetically than much of the classic rock and metal scene, and it was objectively heavier and more aggressive.