Nobody really cares what music you like or don't like. That's just narcissism to think your opinion holds weight over other peoples likes. They want you to feel insignificant because you like something they don't. It's main character syndrome. Elitism is not a positive character trait. They are just people who aren't worth your time.
@@LiminalMan777Beat me to it. "You can't be non conformist if you don't drink coffee!" Matt and Trey are masters of pointing out the irony and absurdity of our culture.
This mindset is exactly why i don't hate any genre of music personally. I'm not into every genre but i can still see the inherent value of the art itself whether it's for me or not. This was actually a really good breakdown
Blink-182 and Green Day are why I find punk so fascinating. It covers so many different styles from OG sex pistols to new wave and yes to pop punk.... I've come to the realization that punk is more an attitude than it is a style of music.
Tbh I only hate genres of music if they're too overrepresented by the media, making it harder for other genres of music. I just like having variety out there.
I don't hate any genre either, really. But there are some genres I prefer over others because a most of the big names in certain genres are just... Not my taste. I am EXTREMELY picky with both rap and country. More so with country.
@@CageBlack1443 There are some, of course, that I would gouge my ears out to most of it. (Trance EDM literally gives me migraines.) But in the end, if there was a song type that everyone in the world liked they'd only make that one type.
So true. Nirvana happened. And then Green Day happened. For better or worse, if those 2 bands hadn't happened WHEN they did, the world would/could have been a very different place. Not to advertise, but there's a very interesting documentary style book on this by Dan Ozzi called 'Sellout'. And green day is the 1st chapter
True.. True... It was because of Green Day and the Offspring that I went down the rabbit hole and discovered old school bands like Dead Kennedys, the Ramones, Misfits, and one of my favorite bands of all time, T.S.O.L.
@@TranzparentMethods same for me, and the mad thing is that Green Day did it twice. The 90's Green Day opened eyes for one generation, and then 2003 Green Day hit another generation via American Idiot.
Rancid needed tv time? Maybe you dont remember Operation Ivy and Green Day many years ago. Rancid still does not tv time. Green day has nothing to do with Rancids progression.
Pop Punk from the late 90s to the late 2000s produced the soundtracks to millions of us who were teenagers and young adults in this time. I’ll never be ashamed that I love Blink, FOB, Less Than Jake, NFG, Sum 41, and many more. Furthermore The Story So Far have separated themselves from the pack and are carrying pop punk into the 2020s. Like Fin, I spent a lot of time in underground punk and hardcore scenes and the shit is dark, depressing and full of disturbed people. If they didn’t turn their back on you for liking pop punk, they’d turn their back on you for something else. Sorry that I didn’t want to be around a bunch of people who refused to help themselves and wallow in misery.
The older I get the more I lean into writing simple songs. You have to abandon your ego to recognize that sometimes you're not writing to impress your peers, you're making something for somebody else. Three chords and the truth baby.
Ironically this was the natural progression of so many of those "bloated" bands of the '70s (Rush, Yes, Genesis, etc.): they came to value songwriting just as much - or more than - musicianship.
@@benledger6451 I went through the same journey as a chef. My girlfriend didn't care that I made risotto... she just wanted tacos. Truthfully? So did I.
I feel this. When I first started writing music, I was so focused on making everything obscenely complex with a ridiculous amount of layers. As I've grown older, I realized that simple is better a vast majority of the time. If you have too many layers, everything just kinda bleeds together and sounds like noise
Every skater I knew from 94-01 hated any pop-punk group you could name with a passion. They would rather play Crass and Dead Milkmen, and if you played green day youd get smashed over the head and handed some coffee grounds to scab up by some worn out drug hag. Middle class MTV kids bought those albums.
If you were around back then, then you know full well that "real punks" would make fun of you for listening to blink 182. I distinctly remember all of my older brothers friends writing "poser" all over this dudes locker in Sharpie because he was a known fan of blink, Simple Plan & NOFX. Yeah, nowadays those bands are legendary, but so are NSYNC & Backstreet Boys, even though you absolutely got made fun of for liking them back when they were huge.
Well, without Pop Punk (especially Green Day and Simple Plan), I would have never known The Offsprings, Dead Kennedys, Ramones, Sex Pistols, Bad Religion, Black Flag, Misfits, and my personal favorite, Social Distortion. Green Day and Simple Plan encourage me to explore what classic punk songs would sound like, I heard the roots, and I was very impressed. The influence is similar to Metal for me from Linkin Park, where I learned about one of my all-time favorite bands, Iron Maiden. The lesson here folks is: don't be a butthurt, love every piece of music you come across and discover. Sure, the PopPunk scene is a cash grab, but the fans ain't posers to an extent. Music in general is what makes everyone closer. if it divides you, that's your problem for being too selfish about what other people want with their life.
I completely agree. Bands like Green Day, Simple Plan, and Blink-182 introduced me to the other bands that would later influence me like the Ramones and Dead Kennedys. Even now, I still listen to the pop-punk bands I grew up with. I also acknowledge that these bands may influence younger generations to discover these bands as well. We all start from somewhere. I agree with your point about not “being butthurt” and loving the music I discover. If it weren’t for Green Day, I wouldn’t have discovered the Ramones, and I wouldn’t be where I am today. So, who am I to judge these bands as well as others who might find them influential like how I did?
dude the video went from talking about pop punk to your past life and dark experiences that happened to you, didn't expect. Im happy that you could grow with it, and hope you stay well
I can’t remember where it’s from, but I remember seeing a clip of blink saying that they make music too have fun and make other people happy because they came from broken homes and want to help those in the same situation they were in, and that seems the case for a lot of pop punk bands and some have had loss in their lives and make fun music for people going through what they did, and I feel like that’s why it’s so accessible and relatable
Honestly songs from bands like Blink 182, Green Day, and Bowling for Soup were the whole reason I got into the punk music scene. It opened the door for a whole new genre of music that I didn't even now of before. I wasn't in the same scene as punk until after that. Then I would attend things like Warp Tour or some of those punk bands playing at the local dive. So even if you don't like the music know that it helped kids in the same way as your hardcore punk may have helped you.
Yeah, that's one overlooked fact: While it's debatable whether pop punk is really punk, it served as a gateway for generations of kids to get into the punk rock world and discover "real" punk - just like nu metal got generations of kids into the metal world and made them discover "real" metal.
To be fair, people only started to hate Blink when they got super big. It wasn't until after Enema of the State that the elitists would start hating. I personally always thought Blink was better than Green Day. They wrote catchier faster shit that was always more in the vein of NOFX, and Lagwagon, which I grew up loving. And when they would experiment with the 80's new wave style, I hated it initially when I was a teenager, but as I got older I realize how good it was now that I'm a major 80s head (New Order, Gang of Four, Depeche Mode, The Cure, etc)
Out of curiosity how old are you? I feel like the answer to this age old question is that there is an age cut where older people prefer Greenday and younger prefer Blink. I’m 33 and always prefered Blink. 😂
Blink was actually playing small punk shows even opened up for Pennywise back in the day. After Offspring hit it big Fletch told Mark they were the next band that would blow up. Later on in their boy band punk phase Bad Religion opened up for them. Punk rock never really took itself too seriously as look at The Ramones and their goofy punk rock songs. That is why I still love punk rock its just fun music can be happy and sappy even dark as well. Actually one of the biggest rock bands in Vietnam are my friends 7 uppercuts which are highly influenced by Blink 182. They have that fun poppy sound mostly though in Vietnamese yet my friend the drummer sung on the album before "One more time by Blink 182." That song is so good especially the video a flashback of another time it really was well done showed more depth as a band.
I love pop punk, but imo, bands like Sum 41 and blink-182 are *actual* pop punk closer to Bad Religion and the Descendents, while Avril Lavigne, mgk and All Time Low are just straight up pop closer to Justin Bieber. I have no idea how anyone would listen to all these artists and be like, “Yeah, this is all the same genre.” I love pop punk, I just can’t stand most pop.
Yeah, true. The early bands of the genre, like Green Day, Blink, Sum 41 and Good Charlotte, clearly were rooted in punk - they looked like punks and still had a punk attitude. But starting with Avril Lavigne, pop punk became pop disguised as punk. And since the mid-00s, pop punk was finally selling out when bands like Jonas Brothers or 5 Seconds of Summer, which were literally pop bands that had more in common with Hanson than with actual punk bands, emerged and finally made the genre pure pop mainstream.
@@DSPHistoricalSociety Not that it's a fair comparison but their 2nd album does resemble melodic hardcore and a lot of their albums are straight up alternative metal.
Sum 41 didn't even consider themselves to be a punk band. There's a difference between Green Day and Offspring who at least had punk roots and mid-late 00's bands that were churned out by A&Rs who were pretty much just boy bands with guitars.
I discovered pop punk when I was around 14 years old in the early 2000. I loved it back then, and I just never stopped listening to it. I don’t care that it’s easy to play and all that stuff. I love the energy it gives me! Happy or sad, pop punk always helps. Even though I’m an adult now, the emo kid in me won’t let go and neither will my love for pop punk❤️
Personally, I believe phenomena has a lot to do with outsiders invading the "sacred space" of a true believer. You see this with nearly every other aspect in life, not just punk music. I considered joining a sewing subreddit a few years back when I just got interested in the hobby (not joking, im into sewing) and the sheer amount of venom the more senior hats had for newbies and newbie questions would astound you. There is something about having a world you are a part of in more of a deeper, non-superficial way. You love it, you are committed to it. You see tourists (which you know will probably lose interest in a few months) come in with less commitment and devotion to this world than you have, and it feels cheap and artificial. It feels like Hot Topic.
Good take. I think the difference between newbies and tourists is huge, but it is often hard to tell who is who at times. I always welcomed outsiders into punk- preaching to the choir gets boring and stale. That said, so-called tourists can take away from the "scene" for the reasons you mention. They were/are easy to spot, though, and who knows, maybe a few will stick around.
I was the perfect age for this. I graduated high school in 02 and my goal was to either be a guitarist in a pop punk band or a pro snowboarder. That was it. I loved it all… the music, the style.. etc. Well I am a plumber now so that shows you how that worked out. Still had some great times.
I think this argument said it best: "That guy, who picked on me in school, now he's listening to the same music as I do." The punk scene was all for the outcasts, the people who were bullied in school, to feel welcome. When pop-punk blew up, the bullies started listening to it too, the preppy people starting listening to pop-punk as well. It was essentially a sacred space to the outcasts invaded by the people who picked on them, unwelcoming people. As someone who was bullied, I understand their justifiable sentiment and its something I can't argue with.
“The unstated assumption that complexity has inherent value in art” Thank you! You put this into words that I’ve been having trouble articulating! I am really into modern art like Dadaism and I appreciate it for reasons other than its complexity. Same with pop punk!
Yup, it's not that simplicity or minimalism can't be great art as well. In fact, most pop and rock music, from the Beatles to Nirvana to Michael Jackson to Taylor Swift, is rather simple in its structure, yet still no one would dispute it's not good music because it has no Mozart-level complexity to it.
The "pop punk is simple" argument is not really true. There are many subtleties in these songs that make them sound great. Rick Beato made a great video about it where he analyzed "What's My Age Again" by blink-182.
PJW is correct about modern art, also look into why it was made. CIA had a hand in it and it was hated by actual art critics for years until the US government pushed it, not a “conspiracy theory “ actually true….
Even though I have not researched this, I could totally see this happening, Bands like slayer, NWA, & many of the super popular bands today were created by the CIA
I think criticism towards pop-punk as a genre has to do with the number of inauthentic ‘artists’ who are jumping on a bandwagon because they know - or their record label knows - they can cash in on a fad. Many of these ‘artists’ are super fake and packaged to look and sound as they do to cash in. They’ve got stylists who tell them what to wear and how to do their hair. Many are as cookie-cutter as the wave of boy bands from the late 90’s. Punk is anti-establishment and most pop-punk artists are very establishment - look at Green Day: They’re hand in hand with the machine.
I think there actually is something to be said about the "pop-ification" of alternative genres, and I think those of us who were young when Metallica and Blink were doing it to metal and punk could see it but didn’t have the age or perspective to put words to it. Short short version: We live under a parasitic plutocracy that commodifies and mass produces every aspect of life that it can for its own benefit, resulting usually in a bland, boring, stifling same-ness that grinds on everyone's soul in some aspect or other. So when some group of people find or develop a thing that's authentic or DIY or just not a part of that sameness, and it get captured and commodified for some mid-grade level of mass appeal, it feels like a win for the bad guys.
I was in high school when dookie and The offspring album came out. And I do recall the football players and all the girls started following Punk rock. It was almost overnight.
@@jamesadamgleason9471 oh yeah def, i’m not the biggest fan of Americana i think Hombre and Smash are better and Conspiracy of One is the better pop punk album
I would argue the bands responsible for pushing punk into the mainstream with their own brand of pop-punk would be the Dead Milkmen with "Punk Rock Girl" who hit it big in 1989, followed by Social Distortion, who had their first hit in 1990 with "Story of My Life" and "Ball and Chain", and then by Bad Religion hitting it big with "American Jesus," --all before Green Day made it big. But it was when Green Day and Blink 182 emerged into the mainstream brandishing the "punk" brand, it became a lot less acceptable in the community.
Pop punk, especially Sum41 brings me down to earth. It's a genre that I ended up associating it with reality. Put on some less known sum 41 songs get on my board and ride, it keeps me grounded.
Sorry but Sum 41 stopped being Pop Punk after their 2nd album. They always sounded more Alternative Metal and that's because they had a guitarist who can actually play and riff so well in Dave Baksh, so much better than most Pop Punk guitarists and that's because his influences are rooted in Metal. Why do you think they even made Pain For Pleasure? Not just for the fun of it, it was a chance to actually show their talent outside of the music they made for Sum 41
Before the pop-punk fad came around I was already several years into classic hard rock and progressive rock. So, when kids in my school started going crazy about Blink 182, Sum 41 and Green Day, I was like: "Dudes, how can you listen to this shit? It's so stupid and primitive!". So, basically pop-punk is hated because of the fans, who mostly are poorly educated teenagers with little knowledge about music, literature and arts in general.
Growing up, I absolutely loved Pop Punk. I just cared more for a certain part of it in the early days of it. Like I tell my friends: “I prefer my Pop Punk to be more Punk than Pop. I don’t deny or negate the Pop sensibility. It’s all over the music no matter how edgy it is or not. But there was a certain point in the early 2000s when I felt in my opinion when Pop Punk went to hell. I couldn’t relate to it. It didn’t give me that feeling that I was looking for as a young kid. I wanted to skate and tear up the town and Blink 182 just wasn’t doing it for me. MxPx was the band that did it for me. Been a fan of them for a long time. The genre is still somewhat alive, but I don’t care for what is being put out now.
I get why pop punk gets the hate despite the fact that I like some of it. Pop punk came off the heels of skate punk. Skate punk took some of the same heat but not at the same level. Skate punk took "traditional" punk and while they did make it more digestible, they also made it faster and in some ways more, aggressive. Pop punk took the choruses and hooks of skate punk and made it slower and more commercial. The turning point for me was the transition from Dude Ranch to Enema. They went from full on skate punk to a slower more accessible sound. I loved Enema but was dissapointed that it only had a few fast songs on it. Pop punk then started to show up on radio and MtV which never gave any thought to playing skate punk besides a small handful of songs in a handful of markets. After the first wave of pop punk (Green Day, Blink, NFG and to a less extent Offspring), it got even more watered down with bands like Simple Plan and Good Charlotte. Suddenly every band was at least pop punk adjacent. It became sterile so quickly. Bands that held on to the soul of skate punk never really gained that level of success. (Rufio, Set Your Goals etc) By the early to mid 2000s pop punk had completely lost whatever bit of edginess it once had and it was a marketing tool more then anything. Just my 2 cents and I hope one day skate punk makes a comeback. Bands like A Wilhelm Scream and No Trigger are out there but it needs to return to form with newer bands adopting that sound.
Two main reasons I don't like pop punk 1) I don't like the vocals 2) It's just a little too juvenile. Plenty of rock genres have a juvenile or carefree attitude but I would rather not remember a lot of aspects of my high school years so a genre that often revolves around that time period just isn't my thing.
@@xyst_222 there's not a single genre of music that sucks nearly as much as haters. Especially haters that go out of their way to find people who are saying something positive just so that they can say something negative to them. Cheers!
@@xyst_222 so you don't like it. So what? Don't listen to it. Super simple. No fan of the genre is forcing you to listen to it. Go listen to what you like and stop wasting your time tearing down music you don't like.
Pop-punk was a great genre some people just didn't understand what Punk had become at that time. It's like the integration of Classic Punk Rock and Ramonscore, so then there's Pop-Punk they made Punk Music relevant again after it died from its obscurity, and just because at the time no one really wanted to commercialize Punk Pop-Punk did.
That’s why no one likes pop punk. They’re sell outs to what punk is. Punks is do it yourself and don’t have anyone telling you what to do, how to do it, or when to do it. That’s the “majority” reason I’d say, but my reason is cause they took melodic rock riffs and labeled them “punk” just cause it’s sped up doesn’t mean it’s punk.
@@Crash.7434you’re being anti punk by saying they have to conform to your preconceived notion of punk I don’t know how you don’t see the irony in talking about punk is doing what you want and saying they’re not punk for doing it the way they want lmao Cognitive dissonance to the max
@@SLPWLKNGx when did I say they had to “conform”😂 are you 14? Also what is my “notion”? Cause again I never told anyone what they had to believe in to be “punk” I just stated on why some might not like pop punk and if that hurts your feelings then idk what to tell you🤷♂️ but that is what it was. It was a whole bunch of broke kids in the 70’s promoting their music and playing anywhere they wanted and made the music that they wanted. But since we are bringing up opinions. Anything could be “punk” cause punk is believing in what you want and not getting offended by the next person😂 so ya I guess you ain’t punk🤷♂️
@@Crash.7434 you said they aren’t punk because they’re not doing what you define punk as. Putting dumbass emojis and writing this unhinged rant pretending I’m upset doesn’t change that little buddy. It’s okay take a deep breath It’s always hilarious when someone online knows they’ve been called out and are wrong they start claiming the other person is upset and start throwing random emojis in that they weren’t previously using. Just a classic tell tale sign Sit buddy
I love how you talked about ppl not understanding the art, my head went straight to color-field painting, end there we go, color field painting not 2 seconds later in the video
I grew up in southwest Washington, Green Day named their biggest song after our town. I remember as a freshman in high school weight training class all the jocks would put Green Day on the stereo. That and Chixdiggit. Even the local jocks formed punk bands, and it was all super melodic, catchy punk. It’s what I grew up with. Things got watered down later with the MTV explosion. I always found it weird being ostracized by fellow “punks” for liking bands like blink and MXPX, while they listened to bands that sounded like the Ramones. Was softer music really more punk?? What a time to be alive.
Punk in Britain was always pop music. It was on Top Of The Pops. The bands had hit singles and albums. Also the critics in Britain that came out of Punk were not rockcentric. They went on to champion pop bands like Altered Images, Human League, ABC, Frankie Goes to Hollywood and so on. This is because British punk was influenced by stuff like Bowie, T Rex, and The Sweet as much as by, if not more so, than what we now call protopunk. I'm old. I read the British music press in the 80s. It was very anti-rock and would be today described as woke. In fact a common criticism of the more punky Punk was that it was too close to metal, too laddish and lacked a pop sensibility.
You may be right about what type of people become critics, but speaking as the dad of a teenage girl, there are more reasons than that why everything they like induces cringing.
Punk was not very technical, but it was all about rage and frustration - a couple of blokes who may not be virtuosos, but are like, "screw it, we're gonna play anyway". Pop punk is everything punk stands against - it is soft, mainstream, and there is not a sign of rage in it. So, yeah.
Answering your question why we don't like pop-punk: Well, it's empty, childish, cheesy and boring. At the end of the video you mentioned the complexity of human beings and the search for emotions, etc. That's correct. Then, what does this music produce in you? Yes, I can understand that a 14-year-old child might feel something with it, many things produce something in them since they have few experiences and points of comparison. But when we talk about music, and not about what happens to a 14-year-old child when experiencing new things and their emotions, then many of the bands you mention there are nothing to talk about.
I'm a metal head, but I have a soft spot for Blink-182. Maybe it's nostalgia since I was in college when they exploded in popularity. Maybe it's just cause they're catchy bite sized songs. I don't know and can't explain it. LOL
The point you made about art and the range of emotions hit hard. What struck me the most is the awareness about the punk-hardcore scene - getting out of your own way and then listening to something ""normal"" is huge. I kinda think this also reflects our attitude with people. The better you understand our range of emotions, the better you'll be with different kinds of people. Thanks Finn for the insight!
Pop Punk probably gets hate because it's commercialization manifest. OG punk rockers probably felt after 80's movies and videos "punk" imagery (which was commercialization), 90s and 2000s pop punk was the full blown bubble gum-"ification" of punk succumbing to the ONE thing it stood most against
Your comment has some good observations. Sadly, I don't think that Finn will ever understand them. Then again, after listening to the reason why he likes this genre around (I think) the 15:00 mark - specifically the mention of his family - I guess that he has a good reason.
It mainly gets hate because OG punk was supposed to be this underground, non-mainstream stuff that appealed to a very niche group of people, and pop punk was the exact opposite of all that. The OG punk bands were playing dive bars with a crowd of like 70 people and these pop punk bands were playing arenas and were on MTV and talk shows. They and the punk fans that didn't like the pop punk bands hated more than anything being associated with them because both styles of music had "punk" in the name.
yeahh, it goes back to Oi hey, wanting to maintain a distinction between the purpose and principles of punk (diy ethos) as opposed to further co-option and commercialisation (playing the capitalist game) they could see other punk groups heading down. Mark Hoppus himself has talked about how he was less interested in/couldn't relate to how political punk was and preferred singing about girls re: quoting Descendents as a big influence. I guess this is why I've found it jarring when I'll learn that an alternative band hold conservative views or apolitical stances because it's an oxymoron imo. in saying that, I grew up in the pop punk/emo era, so nostalgia still has its power. sonically and ~aesthetically~ i'm all for it, and it's also why I like new wave because it's punk with further experimentation, but I'll still find bands like Crass and more recently Cable Ties to be what punk is truly about ie. cultivating community and critiqueing the system, which helps you deal with "the darkness" rather than simply self soothing through fart jokes. I appreciate the nuance and duality either way.
Dude, totally relatable when you mentioned the time in highschool and the whole connection people had about punk/hardcore scene with substance abuse... I felt that was where my heart was in the musical perspective, but my soul wasn't there... Many of my friends from this scene were using (even lost a few of them along the way) and I was perceived as also doing so too, just because I was in the scene... So when pop punk was more accepted by the general public it seems I wasn't the 'crazy ass-junkie-dark' kid anymore. Well, last week went to Sum 41 goodbye tour and that brought back memories.
Dookie introduced me to punk and shortly Rancid became my favorite band. Then I got into the local underground punk scene in my hometown. Green Day was for sure my gateway into the scene.
Exactly. I think lots of us got introduced ant then started to search where this genre came out of. And that is how you expand your interests. But one way or another you’ll have to get introduced to it.
Your channel has given me such a good understanding of the history of music subcultures and how influences evolve from one scene to another over time. You really really know your stuff.
Because Pop represents the complete opposite of Punk and mixing it together is pretty insulting if you value punk as something bigger beyond just music.
Glad to see you’re back at it with the videos. I really missed your takes on these things last week. I know you got other things going on and videos you like to share. I just really look forward to these to start my days when I arrive at work. So thank you Finn
You mentioned Tony from Mest on this video. Im surprised nobody talks about Mest when talking about great pop-punk bands. Mest’s cds Wasting Time, Destination Unknown and self titled were constantly on repeat on my boombox back in my high schools years, early 2000’s. Then they fell down following their photographs disc. Anyways, would you please do a video on the strange history of Mest?
I am from Denmark and went to Australia on an exchange program in 03 - we knew about pop punk in Denmark but it was for small kid’s around 12 and I was 16 at the time. I was a bit surprised about everyone was so into that type of music. When you watch American reality shows like Laguna beach and the hills you see them in highschool all about punk and then a few years later in the hills they grew out of it. For me it is nostalgic but I only listen to it when I go running
damn this is crazy bc i was super into all time low when i was 16 and i got into blink (in 2013-2014) BECAUSE those were THEIR influencers. Paramore is now my favourite band of all time and growing up with them and having them influence my life in a positive way was honestly a blessing. Hayley Williams still inspires me so much and taught me how to sing ❤ thanks for this awesome video
I hate pop punk because of the lyrical content. It feels like “punk,” for rich kids. Literally lyrical content is as dumb as falling in love in high school getting your heart broken and hanging with your friends. Problems I could never relate to.
Thank you very much. Been looking through the comments to find someone point out something that speaks to me directly on why I like or don't like music. A lot of the lyrics are corny high school stuff for kids living a nice life or trying to impress their crush or something dumb like that. Can't relate much to that either, would rather find something that helps me through some of the tough situations in life, having come from a difficult life growing up and still facing a lot of difficult issues and thinking deeper about the truth and reality of the way this world works, at the expense of people who are struggling. Like I am fed up of being mass marketed everything, ads everywhere, people only caring about money despite them lying to your face saying 'money isn't everything' when in this world it is otherwise you can't survive and how much these corporations and government want to take it all away from you based on greed. So many other topics as well I related to and thought about and I want to listen to bands and artists who can try tackle some of the real issues and provide an escape, a relief and a way to cope in the face of these pressures.
Well spoken. I think I saw a similar comment but as I’m getting into my late 30’s I have learned to find more joy in music than angst. You like what you like. Gatekeepers of music are the worst. A band I recently found called Opal in Sky is metal, but all their songs are positive. Gives me hope.
Pop punk is hated on because the genre is so corny. There’s nothing “punk” about Green Day. Sorry. There’s definitely nothing punk about any bands mentioned in this video
I walked away from punk with Fall Out Boy played the Warp Tour and I was surrounded by middle schoolers yelling, drooling, and flashing everyone. It was time to give up trying to keep up with newness. Instead, I went back to discover punk bands I missed the first go round, like Gorilla Biscuits, Agent Orange, and MDC. In short, I grew old and out of the current scene unfolding around me. I still love punk because it has always been this wierdness, fringy, and comical self expression against the typical pop music.
If you listen to punk for the sound itself, you're listening to punk wrong. It's all about the message, even if it's as shallow and everyday like some Descendents songs, it is still far more important than the sound itself. If a pop-punk band has something they want to express, they are no less punk than any other punk band.
I think another factor often referred to as a reason for pop punk sucking is the white suburban identity of it. White suburban young boys are seen as offsprings of privilege, brought up in bubbles detached from “real” city drama, so that takes a lot of credibility about them as punks and minimizes the weight of anything they complain about as vain.
As a music teacher I ask my kids why they do/don’t like songs all the time and it’s a question not enough people ask themselves. I’ve NEVER liked pop punk, but I was never aware of any of the scene issues you brought up - I just never cared for the vocal style. Once the Tom Delonge voice got popular in pop punk I couldn’t hang.
lately I found that a lot of old school punk rockers just hate a number of pop punk bands for having a strong anti-punk philosophy. Like Blink concerts being extremely expensive, or Green Day being pro authority. The would have hated their future selves in the 90s. I couldn't care less, I just don't pay 200 for a punk rock gig and move on with my life
Listen to Rancid's Life won't Wait album and then listen to Sum 41 and Blink 182. Notice the obvious difference. Rancid is real punk rock and pop punk is just guys singing about how boring and suburban their town is.
11:00 i think whats impressive about pop punk or punk is when people can make simple sounds, sound so good and impressive and find their own ways to work with it its like having a blank canvas and just having the primary colors you can do whatever.
As a High schooler in the early 2000's, I made punk friends and started to listen to punk but quickly transitioned to pop-punk. I didn't understand why they would make fun of me all the time. Later on in college, I was pursuing a degree in music (I'm a drummer), and again I was judged big time for listening to pop-punk.
I went away from pop punk from 15 to 30 years old. Now 7 months later my entire playlist is Morgan Wallen and Pop punk. I hated and mocked the genre for 15 years and now am nostalgic for it. I miss being a kid and pop punk makes me remember those times.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve skipped a song that happened to be very technical, and complex because I simply didn’t enjoy the way it sounded. Sometimes simplicity is the key.
Well put, you hit the nail on the head on every point. The two biggest problem I had in the punk scene was liking things based on what others like and the toxic idealism of negativity. You saw this in the late 90’s as the punk scene started to splinter into “factions”, like the emo, hardcore, ska, straight edge, drunk punk, and gutter punk (to name a few) Prior to this all these groups would exist together and it was about self expression and the love of music and art. In my opinion punk was a mentality more than a music genre, it was about independence and freedom and a celebration of individuality. It was like yes high class art is great but so is this non conventional thing too. Once you based your identity based on others you’ve lost the point.
The older I've gotten, the more I can appreciate simplicity and catchiness in music. It's much more difficult to strip things back and still be interesting, which the Ramones did well early on.
that's a pretty cohesive and profound summary, loved it. i also wanna add that i think the root of it all is that when something new is coming, it's only human nature that your identity is threatened and there's nothing more terrifying to the ego. like, you spent years and years to form your own self and then something is about to wash it away in a second, you fear that you won't matter anymore, the thing you invested in is about to be gone, so you hold on to it as hard and as long as you can, also reacting with hatred towards the thing that's taking it away. that's also why it's usually the teenage and twentysomethings generation that adopt the new trends first, they are in the middle of creating their identities and want something of their own, they want to be different. and just in general the "everything was better in the good old days" attitude of the elderly is simply just masking their fear of becoming irrelevant. not gonna lie, above 30 now, i sometimes get these vibes too, but then all i have to do is to remember, that my generation, in which i'm still just as relevant as i was, is and probably in my lifetime will always be around so it's all good
Dissing the vapid content of a piece of art doesn't require the assumption that art needs to be dark and broody to be meaningful. Upbeat, positive, and/or comical things can absolutely be done in a way that's intelligent. And dark, angsty art can be stupid, too. Some things are just dumb, Man.
I’ve never heard any criticism of pop punk. I was aware that some bands got criticism for “selling out”, but the genre was wildly popular everywhere I was involved during my pre-teen and teen years.
I love Pop/Punk! I was a fair weather listener back in the day but now when I listen to it, it feels nostalgic. AFI, Green Day, MCR, Blink 182, Sum 41, etc are all really good. For example, December Underground by AFI is an amazing record!
My most embarrassing secret is that I once went to a Good Charlotte gig with a girl I was dating, just to "seal the deal" ... and it was the most excruciatingly embarrassing concert I've ever been to and seeing how much into it she was made me lose all interest in her.
@@derekjordangregg7468 Dude, it was the longest 70 mins of my life, and they did two encores and I think they played "Lifestyles of the Rich and the Famous" twice!
@@SpeedBoost That actually sounds like a good time, girls who were into Pop-Punk usually was very dirty while you got to know 'em. The best girls were the girls that were into Pop-Punk and/or Emo
I get the feeling Third Wave Ska is seen in the same way, some seem to really dislike people like Reel Big Fish and others similar and I have not ever found out why. They and others pull me out of dark times and make me smile and that for me is what is important.
Damn, this video made you so relatable, probably my favorite video of yours I've seen. The messy family shit, the bright spot pop punk brought in my waves of darkness and anger... luv this dude.
I’m 60 and have experienced a lot of incarnations of punk since I was 15, and have found that criticism has been around since I first heard it in 1980. After decades of pondering this I’ve concluded that it basically comes down to pretentious, condescending A-holes who just want to degrade other people for their taste. It’s their personality speaking, not their superior knowledge. Best avoid those critics and not the bands you like. Their manipulators, not music critics.
If these bands are “pop” punk then what is regular “punk” Green Day and blink are just as poppy as the ramones and the clash, you don’t call them “pop punk pioneers”. Pop punk is a label that old jaded punk fans came up with after better bands out sold their favorite hardcore band that nobody knows or remember. Punk music is a pop genre.
Who cares about popularity? You want to like something just because other people like it? Or do you want to like music because it speaks to you? There are millions of mainstream fans of pop bands and artists who seem to only want to like music because other people like it, because it's a trend, because it's looked at as 'cool'. That's why a lot of pop music is popular. In my honest opinion, that's the WORST reason to like music. You need something that makes you feel good regardless of whether you think other people like it or not. This is how a lot of Hardcore fans came to be, they didn't care to be shunned because the music they like connects with them but doesn't have any appeal to most people. Don't act like some of their criticisms of pop punk and pop rock bands aren't legitimate because it is. Being overly judgmental and purist I understand is a bit much, best to focus that energy on enjoying the music they like instead of spending all the time worrying about the music they don't like.
i was 5 when i got a copy of Dookie from a Gen X skater punk that was friends with my mom. I think about that guy all the time and how he changed my life. Basically though after Blink it got too poppy for me. I'll admit I kinda bought into the pop punk hate, but as i have gotten older I have not only softend my stance but I opened up my definition of what punk is to include pop punk and a bunch of other adjacent genres of music and other art styles and ideas. Even the "hardcore punks" should be praising pop punk and anything that teaches rebellous ideas to people that aren't being reached. Teens in suburbs learning self expression at an early age is great and i think will lead to making more interesting and creative adults, even if they arent punk anymore that is always a good thing. sorry i tried to be concise with my ramblings i hope i made sense thanks finno
I don't think you have to be an incel to understand that "art" that is mainstream popular with teenage girls, like Twilight etc., is usually not very good art especially not past the surface level. There's a fine line between misogyny and just having a common sense understanding of culture. Strawman arguments like yours don't get us anywhere fast when trying to describe culture.
The same could be said of art with mainstream teenager popularity, irrespective of whether or not the predominant audience is girls. It’s not a strawman argument. Your assertion of a “common sense understanding”is merely begging the question.
@@zplapplap I agree; both teenage boy and teenage girl pop art comes with a set of assumptions. Both are assumed to be unsophisticated because of the maturity level of the audience. It's a stereotype, but it's not an unreasonable one. It fact, it's basically a tautology that immature people are going to have immature tastes in art. That doesn't really change my point, though. The only really relevant distinction is that girls are less likely to appreciate art that centers around anger and aggression, which are cornerstones of traditional punk. But there's also the other main facets of punk: irony and political/social commentary. Teenage girls are less likely to be interested in aggressive ironic social commentary than they are in Taylor Swift breakup songs. That's not "begging the question," it's verifiable fact.
Download Opera for free: opr.as/Opera-browser-thepunkrockmba
punks from the 60s in peru look for saicos
Your legs look paper thin. I can tell your not running your miles Finn. I’m worried about you
Finn
I'm so sorry for your family.
Congratulations on being able to overcome the trauma.
Great work on the channel.
Nobody really cares what music you like or don't like. That's just narcissism to think your opinion holds weight over other peoples likes. They want you to feel insignificant because you like something they don't. It's main character syndrome. Elitism is not a positive character trait. They are just people who aren't worth your time.
I’m going to listen to Pop Punk even harder now.
You and I brother . Posers for life 😂😂😂
Nothing wrong about it anyway. Go for it. 🎸
Pop punk forever baby🤘🤘🤘
You wouldn't dare!
He thought to himself as he swallowed the little blue pill
Whining about so-called "conformists" not conforming to a specific punk formula isn't very punk.
The haters can’t even grasp the irony when they say that stuff man lol it’s too funny
Just like South Parks goth kids
this happens with like ever subculture and it fucking enrages me man
It's modern leftism at it's finest, adapt or die/be shunned/ostracized etc.
@@LiminalMan777Beat me to it. "You can't be non conformist if you don't drink coffee!"
Matt and Trey are masters of pointing out the irony and absurdity of our culture.
This mindset is exactly why i don't hate any genre of music personally. I'm not into every genre but i can still see the inherent value of the art itself whether it's for me or not. This was actually a really good breakdown
Blink-182 and Green Day are why I find punk so fascinating. It covers so many different styles from OG sex pistols to new wave and yes to pop punk.... I've come to the realization that punk is more an attitude than it is a style of music.
Tbh I only hate genres of music if they're too overrepresented by the media, making it harder for other genres of music. I just like having variety out there.
@@superrobot3187 Most genres were made up by the record execs anyway... Do what I do and listen to what you like and DGAF about people's thoughts.
I don't hate any genre either, really. But there are some genres I prefer over others because a most of the big names in certain genres are just... Not my taste. I am EXTREMELY picky with both rap and country. More so with country.
@@CageBlack1443 There are some, of course, that I would gouge my ears out to most of it. (Trance EDM literally gives me migraines.) But in the end, if there was a song type that everyone in the world liked they'd only make that one type.
A friend of mine said something that made quite a bit of sense, "Green Day had to happen so Rancid could get TV time."
So true. Nirvana happened. And then Green Day happened.
For better or worse, if those 2 bands hadn't happened WHEN they did, the world would/could have been a very different place.
Not to advertise, but there's a very interesting documentary style book on this by Dan Ozzi called 'Sellout'. And green day is the 1st chapter
True.. True... It was because of Green Day and the Offspring that I went down the rabbit hole and discovered old school bands like Dead Kennedys, the Ramones, Misfits, and one of my favorite bands of all time, T.S.O.L.
@@TranzparentMethods same for me, and the mad thing is that Green Day did it twice. The 90's Green Day opened eyes for one generation, and then 2003 Green Day hit another generation via American Idiot.
Rancid needed tv time? Maybe you dont remember Operation Ivy and Green Day many years ago. Rancid still does not tv time. Green day has nothing to do with Rancids progression.
@@flaminghead1va nirvana and green day are not punk bands. Green day maybe back on lookout records. But never nirvana.
Pop Punk from the late 90s to the late 2000s produced the soundtracks to millions of us who were teenagers and young adults in this time. I’ll never be ashamed that I love Blink, FOB, Less Than Jake, NFG, Sum 41, and many more.
Furthermore The Story So Far have separated themselves from the pack and are carrying pop punk into the 2020s.
Like Fin, I spent a lot of time in underground punk and hardcore scenes and the shit is dark, depressing and full of disturbed people. If they didn’t turn their back on you for liking pop punk, they’d turn their back on you for something else. Sorry that I didn’t want to be around a bunch of people who refused to help themselves and wallow in misery.
Absolute facts
@@ThePunkRockMBAstrange history of the smashing pumpkins
Yup cuz they’re losers
The older I get the more I lean into writing simple songs. You have to abandon your ego to recognize that sometimes you're not writing to impress your peers, you're making something for somebody else. Three chords and the truth baby.
Ironically this was the natural progression of so many of those "bloated" bands of the '70s (Rush, Yes, Genesis, etc.): they came to value songwriting just as much - or more than - musicianship.
@@benledger6451 I went through the same journey as a chef. My girlfriend didn't care that I made risotto... she just wanted tacos. Truthfully? So did I.
amen
I feel this. When I first started writing music, I was so focused on making everything obscenely complex with a ridiculous amount of layers. As I've grown older, I realized that simple is better a vast majority of the time. If you have too many layers, everything just kinda bleeds together and sounds like noise
Correct- make it GOOD and catchy
"why everyone hated pop punk" and yet millions of people bought those albums between 1994 and 2005.
Yeah the title is simply not true. And he's talking about "the critics", who gives a F about critics anyway? Rock on.
It felt like everyone hated Pop-Punk back then unless you were a Skateboard kid/teen or Emo
Every skater I knew from 94-01 hated any pop-punk group you could name with a passion. They would rather play Crass and Dead Milkmen, and if you played green day youd get smashed over the head and handed some coffee grounds to scab up by some worn out drug hag. Middle class MTV kids bought those albums.
"No one listens to them anymore, they're too popular."
If you were around back then, then you know full well that "real punks" would make fun of you for listening to blink 182. I distinctly remember all of my older brothers friends writing "poser" all over this dudes locker in Sharpie because he was a known fan of blink, Simple Plan & NOFX. Yeah, nowadays those bands are legendary, but so are NSYNC & Backstreet Boys, even though you absolutely got made fun of for liking them back when they were huge.
Well, without Pop Punk (especially Green Day and Simple Plan), I would have never known The Offsprings, Dead Kennedys, Ramones, Sex Pistols, Bad Religion, Black Flag, Misfits, and my personal favorite, Social Distortion. Green Day and Simple Plan encourage me to explore what classic punk songs would sound like, I heard the roots, and I was very impressed. The influence is similar to Metal for me from Linkin Park, where I learned about one of my all-time favorite bands, Iron Maiden. The lesson here folks is: don't be a butthurt, love every piece of music you come across and discover. Sure, the PopPunk scene is a cash grab, but the fans ain't posers to an extent. Music in general is what makes everyone closer. if it divides you, that's your problem for being too selfish about what other people want with their life.
how do you know you would have never found these classic bands tho?
@@08100181 Pop-Punk is a great gateway genre
@@08100181Exactly. The bands I listen to the most, I discovered out of the blue.❤
I completely agree. Bands like Green Day, Simple Plan, and Blink-182 introduced me to the other bands that would later influence me like the Ramones and Dead Kennedys. Even now, I still listen to the pop-punk bands I grew up with. I also acknowledge that these bands may influence younger generations to discover these bands as well. We all start from somewhere. I agree with your point about not “being butthurt” and loving the music I discover. If it weren’t for Green Day, I wouldn’t have discovered the Ramones, and I wouldn’t be where I am today. So, who am I to judge these bands as well as others who might find them influential like how I did?
@@Riot_Rhythms you make no sense
dude the video went from talking about pop punk to your past life and dark experiences that happened to you, didn't expect. Im happy that you could grow with it, and hope you stay well
I almost got into a fan on Venice beach because I had a blink tat and some dude kept yelling at me “ that’s not real punk ! That’s not real punk!”
What a dork. Like what you like and leave people alone about what they like. It's so simple. And props to you for rocking a blink-182 tattoo.🤘
Did he show you his Sum 41 tat?
Just imagin what that dudes ljve must be like 😂😢
I can’t help but laugh at any adult who is concerned with what is/isn’t “real punk.” Some of the biggest losers out there imo.
I would just say I agree it's pop punk
I can’t remember where it’s from, but I remember seeing a clip of blink saying that they make music too have fun and make other people happy because they came from broken homes and want to help those in the same situation they were in, and that seems the case for a lot of pop punk bands and some have had loss in their lives and make fun music for people going through what they did, and I feel like that’s why it’s so accessible and relatable
Honestly songs from bands like Blink 182, Green Day, and Bowling for Soup were the whole reason I got into the punk music scene. It opened the door for a whole new genre of music that I didn't even now of before. I wasn't in the same scene as punk until after that. Then I would attend things like Warp Tour or some of those punk bands playing at the local dive. So even if you don't like the music know that it helped kids in the same way as your hardcore punk may have helped you.
Yeah, that's one overlooked fact: While it's debatable whether pop punk is really punk, it served as a gateway for generations of kids to get into the punk rock world and discover "real" punk - just like nu metal got generations of kids into the metal world and made them discover "real" metal.
To be fair, people only started to hate Blink when they got super big. It wasn't until after Enema of the State that the elitists would start hating. I personally always thought Blink was better than Green Day. They wrote catchier faster shit that was always more in the vein of NOFX, and Lagwagon, which I grew up loving. And when they would experiment with the 80's new wave style, I hated it initially when I was a teenager, but as I got older I realize how good it was now that I'm a major 80s head (New Order, Gang of Four, Depeche Mode, The Cure, etc)
Out of curiosity how old are you? I feel like the answer to this age old question is that there is an age cut where older people prefer Greenday and younger prefer Blink. I’m 33 and always prefered Blink. 😂
@velhomiguel 31, still like Blink well enough, stopped listening to Green day in 8th grade.
You might be on to something!
Blink was actually playing small punk shows even opened up for Pennywise back in the day. After Offspring hit it big Fletch told Mark they were the next band that would blow up. Later on in their boy band punk phase Bad Religion opened up for them. Punk rock never really took itself too seriously as look at The Ramones and their goofy punk rock songs. That is why I still love punk rock its just fun music can be happy and sappy even dark as well. Actually one of the biggest rock bands in Vietnam are my friends 7 uppercuts which are highly influenced by Blink 182. They have that fun poppy sound mostly though in Vietnamese yet my friend the drummer sung on the album before "One more time by Blink 182." That song is so good especially the video a flashback of another time it really was well done showed more depth as a band.
It’s not even a debate - Blink > Green Day
Correct- we all loved Dude Ranch. Green Day were ALWAYS the first SELLOUTS
I love pop punk, but imo, bands like Sum 41 and blink-182 are *actual* pop punk closer to Bad Religion and the Descendents, while Avril Lavigne, mgk and All Time Low are just straight up pop closer to Justin Bieber. I have no idea how anyone would listen to all these artists and be like, “Yeah, this is all the same genre.” I love pop punk, I just can’t stand most pop.
Yeah, true. The early bands of the genre, like Green Day, Blink, Sum 41 and Good Charlotte, clearly were rooted in punk - they looked like punks and still had a punk attitude. But starting with Avril Lavigne, pop punk became pop disguised as punk. And since the mid-00s, pop punk was finally selling out when bands like Jonas Brothers or 5 Seconds of Summer, which were literally pop bands that had more in common with Hanson than with actual punk bands, emerged and finally made the genre pure pop mainstream.
Did you just compare sum 41 with Bad Religion tho?
@@DSPHistoricalSociety Not that it's a fair comparison but their 2nd album does resemble melodic hardcore and a lot of their albums are straight up alternative metal.
u watched this video and THAT was your takeaway? watch it again bro
Sum 41 didn't even consider themselves to be a punk band. There's a difference between Green Day and Offspring who at least had punk roots and mid-late 00's bands that were churned out by A&Rs who were pretty much just boy bands with guitars.
I discovered pop punk when I was around 14 years old in the early 2000. I loved it back then, and I just never stopped listening to it. I don’t care that it’s easy to play and all that stuff. I love the energy it gives me! Happy or sad, pop punk always helps. Even though I’m an adult now, the emo kid in me won’t let go and neither will my love for pop punk❤️
100% this!!!! Love the music you love and don't let anyone else's hate take anything away from you.
Completely agree
@@joshuaboyle7585 i enjoy blink 182
Green day
Sum 41
Simple plan
I enjoy pop punk i and don't care what people say
You're so right!
Personally, I believe phenomena has a lot to do with outsiders invading the "sacred space" of a true believer. You see this with nearly every other aspect in life, not just punk music. I considered joining a sewing subreddit a few years back when I just got interested in the hobby (not joking, im into sewing) and the sheer amount of venom the more senior hats had for newbies and newbie questions would astound you.
There is something about having a world you are a part of in more of a deeper, non-superficial way. You love it, you are committed to it. You see tourists (which you know will probably lose interest in a few months) come in with less commitment and devotion to this world than you have, and it feels cheap and artificial. It feels like Hot Topic.
Good take. I think the difference between newbies and tourists is huge, but it is often hard to tell who is who at times. I always welcomed outsiders into punk- preaching to the choir gets boring and stale. That said, so-called tourists can take away from the "scene" for the reasons you mention. They were/are easy to spot, though, and who knows, maybe a few will stick around.
I was the perfect age for this. I graduated high school in 02 and my goal was to either be a guitarist in a pop punk band or a pro snowboarder. That was it. I loved it all… the music, the style.. etc. Well I am a plumber now so that shows you how that worked out. Still had some great times.
Speaking to my soul 😂
I think this argument said it best:
"That guy, who picked on me in school, now he's listening to the same music as I do."
The punk scene was all for the outcasts, the people who were bullied in school, to feel welcome. When pop-punk blew up, the bullies started listening to it too, the preppy people starting listening to pop-punk as well. It was essentially a sacred space to the outcasts invaded by the people who picked on them, unwelcoming people. As someone who was bullied, I understand their justifiable sentiment and its something I can't argue with.
“The unstated assumption that complexity has inherent value in art” Thank you! You put this into words that I’ve been having trouble articulating! I am really into modern art like Dadaism and I appreciate it for reasons other than its complexity. Same with pop punk!
@violentmelody90 I generally prefer a bit of complexity in my music. And some depth in my songwriting. Pop punks fine. Just not my thing
Dada was punk before punk
Yup, it's not that simplicity or minimalism can't be great art as well. In fact, most pop and rock music, from the Beatles to Nirvana to Michael Jackson to Taylor Swift, is rather simple in its structure, yet still no one would dispute it's not good music because it has no Mozart-level complexity to it.
You caught that part where he said faster and complexity doesnt mean value, but 30 seconds earlier, said something was better because it was faster?
The "pop punk is simple" argument is not really true. There are many subtleties in these songs that make them sound great. Rick Beato made a great video about it where he analyzed "What's My Age Again" by blink-182.
PJW is correct about modern art, also look into why it was made. CIA had a hand in it and it was hated by actual art critics for years until the US government pushed it, not a “conspiracy theory “ actually true….
Even though I have not researched this, I could totally see this happening,
Bands like slayer, NWA, & many of the super popular bands today were created by the CIA
I think criticism towards pop-punk as a genre has to do with the number of inauthentic ‘artists’ who are jumping on a bandwagon because they know - or their record label knows - they can cash in on a fad.
Many of these ‘artists’ are super fake and packaged to look and sound as they do to cash in.
They’ve got stylists who tell them what to wear and how to do their hair.
Many are as cookie-cutter as the wave of boy bands from the late 90’s.
Punk is anti-establishment and most pop-punk artists are very establishment - look at Green Day: They’re hand in hand with the machine.
They're not gonna get us...
110🎯
I think there actually is something to be said about the "pop-ification" of alternative genres, and I think those of us who were young when Metallica and Blink were doing it to metal and punk could see it but didn’t have the age or perspective to put words to it.
Short short version: We live under a parasitic plutocracy that commodifies and mass produces every aspect of life that it can for its own benefit, resulting usually in a bland, boring, stifling same-ness that grinds on everyone's soul in some aspect or other. So when some group of people find or develop a thing that's authentic or DIY or just not a part of that sameness, and it get captured and commodified for some mid-grade level of mass appeal, it feels like a win for the bad guys.
This is a great way of describing it.
I was in high school when dookie and The offspring album came out. And I do recall the football players and all the girls started following Punk rock. It was almost overnight.
@scottsutton706 when you have music with mass appeal and pop production it’s gonna appeal to norms
Not sure which you’re talking about but Offspring’s Smash is far from Pop punk
@@scottsutton706 so you’re saying those albums were bangers
@vvx600 timelines are wayy off. Definitely referring to Pretty fly
@@jamesadamgleason9471 oh yeah def, i’m not the biggest fan of Americana i think Hombre and Smash are better and Conspiracy of One is the better pop punk album
I would argue the bands responsible for pushing punk into the mainstream with their own brand of pop-punk would be the Dead Milkmen with "Punk Rock Girl" who hit it big in 1989, followed by Social Distortion, who had their first hit in 1990 with "Story of My Life" and "Ball and Chain", and then by Bad Religion hitting it big with "American Jesus," --all before Green Day made it big. But it was when Green Day and Blink 182 emerged into the mainstream brandishing the "punk" brand, it became a lot less acceptable in the community.
Pop punk, especially Sum41 brings me down to earth. It's a genre that I ended up associating it with reality. Put on some less known sum 41 songs get on my board and ride, it keeps me grounded.
Sum 41 is one of those bands that simply doesn't have a bad song or bad album, and never got in controversies, they just keep rocking
Oof!
Sorry but Sum 41 stopped being Pop Punk after their 2nd album. They always sounded more Alternative Metal and that's because they had a guitarist who can actually play and riff so well in Dave Baksh, so much better than most Pop Punk guitarists and that's because his influences are rooted in Metal. Why do you think they even made Pain For Pleasure? Not just for the fun of it, it was a chance to actually show their talent outside of the music they made for Sum 41
Everyone ? Please don’t include me !! I’m still listening to pop punk even at 42 years old and I will listening to it for the rest of my life!!
Thank God I was a kid in pop punks hayday. There was no criticism just kids enjoying music
I was a kid and thought it sucked.
@@Christian-vq8rd that explains the lack of friends
Back then I had a clear idea of what the word everyone meant also.
You clearly weren't plugged in to the scene- tho I get your overall point
@@DSPHistoricalSociety please tell me who I am random stranger on the internet
Before the pop-punk fad came around I was already several years into classic hard rock and progressive rock. So, when kids in my school started going crazy about Blink 182, Sum 41 and Green Day, I was like: "Dudes, how can you listen to this shit? It's so stupid and primitive!". So, basically pop-punk is hated because of the fans, who mostly are poorly educated teenagers with little knowledge about music, literature and arts in general.
Because it wasn’t punk. It was EMO.
IT WAS EMO.
Growing up, I absolutely loved Pop Punk. I just cared more for a certain part of it in the early days of it. Like I tell my friends: “I prefer my Pop Punk to be more Punk than Pop. I don’t deny or negate the Pop sensibility. It’s all over the music no matter how edgy it is or not. But there was a certain point in the early 2000s when I felt in my opinion when Pop Punk went to hell. I couldn’t relate to it. It didn’t give me that feeling that I was looking for as a young kid. I wanted to skate and tear up the town and Blink 182 just wasn’t doing it for me. MxPx was the band that did it for me. Been a fan of them for a long time. The genre is still somewhat alive, but I don’t care for what is being put out now.
MxPx and blink are my two favorite bands dude🤤
I get why pop punk gets the hate despite the fact that I like some of it. Pop punk came off the heels of skate punk. Skate punk took some of the same heat but not at the same level. Skate punk took "traditional" punk and while they did make it more digestible, they also made it faster and in some ways more, aggressive. Pop punk took the choruses and hooks of skate punk and made it slower and more commercial. The turning point for me was the transition from Dude Ranch to Enema. They went from full on skate punk to a slower more accessible sound. I loved Enema but was dissapointed that it only had a few fast songs on it. Pop punk then started to show up on radio and MtV which never gave any thought to playing skate punk besides a small handful of songs in a handful of markets. After the first wave of pop punk (Green Day, Blink, NFG and to a less extent Offspring), it got even more watered down with bands like Simple Plan and Good Charlotte. Suddenly every band was at least pop punk adjacent. It became sterile so quickly. Bands that held on to the soul of skate punk never really gained that level of success. (Rufio, Set Your Goals etc) By the early to mid 2000s pop punk had completely lost whatever bit of edginess it once had and it was a marketing tool more then anything. Just my 2 cents and I hope one day skate punk makes a comeback. Bands like A Wilhelm Scream and No Trigger are out there but it needs to return to form with newer bands adopting that sound.
Rufio ❤
A Wilhelm Scream just popped up on my Spotify after listening to Alkaline Trio's debut record in its entirety.
I was impressed, cool band.
@@RiggedandReady Check out Career Suicide. My fav album.
@@chrisgirth7373 I'll give it a shot, thanks.
Two main reasons I don't like pop punk
1) I don't like the vocals
2) It's just a little too juvenile. Plenty of rock genres have a juvenile or carefree attitude but I would rather not remember a lot of aspects of my high school years so a genre that often revolves around that time period just isn't my thing.
pop punk was the first rock genre i ever listened. I don't care what anybody thinks, it will always have a special place in my 💜
Pop-punk sucks balls. Cheers!
@@xyst_222 there's not a single genre of music that sucks nearly as much as haters. Especially haters that go out of their way to find people who are saying something positive just so that they can say something negative to them. Cheers!
@@joshuaboyle7585 It just sucks
@@xyst_222 so you don't like it. So what? Don't listen to it. Super simple. No fan of the genre is forcing you to listen to it. Go listen to what you like and stop wasting your time tearing down music you don't like.
@@joshuaboyle7585 Of course, I don't listen to it, but thanks
People can be critical of things without some other factor at play people can just not like something
Pop-punk was a great genre some people just didn't understand what Punk had become at that time. It's like the integration of Classic Punk Rock and Ramonscore, so then there's Pop-Punk they made Punk Music relevant again after it died from its obscurity, and just because at the time no one really wanted to commercialize Punk Pop-Punk did.
That’s why no one likes pop punk. They’re sell outs to what punk is. Punks is do it yourself and don’t have anyone telling you what to do, how to do it, or when to do it. That’s the “majority” reason I’d say, but my reason is cause they took melodic rock riffs and labeled them “punk” just cause it’s sped up doesn’t mean it’s punk.
@@Crash.7434you’re being anti punk by saying they have to conform to your preconceived notion of punk
I don’t know how you don’t see the irony in talking about punk is doing what you want and saying they’re not punk for doing it the way they want lmao
Cognitive dissonance to the max
@@SLPWLKNGx when did I say they had to “conform”😂 are you 14? Also what is my “notion”? Cause again I never told anyone what they had to believe in to be “punk” I just stated on why some might not like pop punk and if that hurts your feelings then idk what to tell you🤷♂️ but that is what it was. It was a whole bunch of broke kids in the 70’s promoting their music and playing anywhere they wanted and made the music that they wanted. But since we are bringing up opinions. Anything could be “punk” cause punk is believing in what you want and not getting offended by the next person😂 so ya I guess you ain’t punk🤷♂️
@@Crash.7434 you said they aren’t punk because they’re not doing what you define punk as. Putting dumbass emojis and writing this unhinged rant pretending I’m upset doesn’t change that little buddy. It’s okay take a deep breath
It’s always hilarious when someone online knows they’ve been called out and are wrong they start claiming the other person is upset and start throwing random emojis in that they weren’t previously using. Just a classic tell tale sign
Sit buddy
@@Crash.7434So you said pop punk does not have that diy attitude? I doubt that
I love how you talked about ppl not understanding the art, my head went straight to color-field painting, end there we go, color field painting not 2 seconds later in the video
I grew up in southwest Washington, Green Day named their biggest song after our town. I remember as a freshman in high school weight training class all the jocks would put Green Day on the stereo. That and Chixdiggit. Even the local jocks formed punk bands, and it was all super melodic, catchy punk. It’s what I grew up with.
Things got watered down later with the MTV explosion. I always found it weird being ostracized by fellow “punks” for liking bands like blink and MXPX, while they listened to bands that sounded like the Ramones. Was softer music really more punk??
What a time to be alive.
And what GD song would that be?
@@rpmartin8650Longview I presume
@@Emrebütüner606 yeah just threw me off saying biggest. Basket case and when I come around are bigger hits than Longview.
@@rpmartin8650Longview
@@rpmartin8650 Longview
Punk in Britain was always pop music. It was on Top Of The Pops. The bands had hit singles and albums.
Also the critics in Britain that came out of Punk were not rockcentric. They went on to champion pop bands like Altered Images, Human League, ABC, Frankie Goes to Hollywood and so on. This is because British punk was influenced by stuff like Bowie, T Rex, and The Sweet as much as by, if not more so, than what we now call protopunk. I'm old. I read the British music press in the 80s. It was very anti-rock and would be today described as woke. In fact a common criticism of the more punky Punk was that it was too close to metal, too laddish and lacked a pop sensibility.
Interesting points 👌
You may be right about what type of people become critics, but speaking as the dad of a teenage girl, there are more reasons than that why everything they like induces cringing.
Aren’t we all cringe at that age?
Punk was not very technical, but it was all about rage and frustration - a couple of blokes who may not be virtuosos, but are like, "screw it, we're gonna play anyway".
Pop punk is everything punk stands against - it is soft, mainstream, and there is not a sign of rage in it. So, yeah.
Answering your question why we don't like pop-punk: Well, it's empty, childish, cheesy and boring. At the end of the video you mentioned the complexity of human beings and the search for emotions, etc. That's correct. Then, what does this music produce in you? Yes, I can understand that a 14-year-old child might feel something with it, many things produce something in them since they have few experiences and points of comparison. But when we talk about music, and not about what happens to a 14-year-old child when experiencing new things and their emotions, then many of the bands you mention there are nothing to talk about.
Full on 110🎯
11:15 - That point is exactly right. I love both complex and simple music. Music is a form of art, not a sport.
Those were the best times when pop punk bands were mainstream and played on TV/radio all day.
I'm a metal head, but I have a soft spot for Blink-182. Maybe it's nostalgia since I was in college when they exploded in popularity. Maybe it's just cause they're catchy bite sized songs. I don't know and can't explain it. LOL
No metalhead listens to that garbage
@@michaelgallone7409this one does.
@@michaelgallone7409 this one does.
we called it mall punk. the kids that liked it weren't at shows, they were at the mall.
@postjazz1258 on point
I get it, but that's kinda dumb considering how many kids were actually going to those shows...
That would make sense if pop punk bands didn't fill arenas I guess is my point
Was going to say this. Pop Punk was the soundtrack of the "mall punks".
@@zach4968 I'm guessing he meant other punk shows beyond "mall punk" ones.
I love this type of content from you, Finn.
It's introspective, interesting, and engaging.
The point you made about art and the range of emotions hit hard. What struck me the most is the awareness about the punk-hardcore scene - getting out of your own way and then listening to something ""normal"" is huge.
I kinda think this also reflects our attitude with people. The better you understand our range of emotions, the better you'll be with different kinds of people.
Thanks Finn for the insight!
Pop Punk probably gets hate because it's commercialization manifest. OG punk rockers probably felt after 80's movies and videos "punk" imagery (which was commercialization), 90s and 2000s pop punk was the full blown bubble gum-"ification" of punk succumbing to the ONE thing it stood most against
Your comment has some good observations. Sadly, I don't think that Finn will ever understand them. Then again, after listening to the reason why he likes this genre around (I think) the 15:00 mark - specifically the mention of his family - I guess that he has a good reason.
It mainly gets hate because OG punk was supposed to be this underground, non-mainstream stuff that appealed to a very niche group of people, and pop punk was the exact opposite of all that. The OG punk bands were playing dive bars with a crowd of like 70 people and these pop punk bands were playing arenas and were on MTV and talk shows. They and the punk fans that didn't like the pop punk bands hated more than anything being associated with them because both styles of music had "punk" in the name.
yeahh, it goes back to Oi hey, wanting to maintain a distinction between the purpose and principles of punk (diy ethos) as opposed to further co-option and commercialisation (playing the capitalist game) they could see other punk groups heading down. Mark Hoppus himself has talked about how he was less interested in/couldn't relate to how political punk was and preferred singing about girls re: quoting Descendents as a big influence. I guess this is why I've found it jarring when I'll learn that an alternative band hold conservative views or apolitical stances because it's an oxymoron imo. in saying that, I grew up in the pop punk/emo era, so nostalgia still has its power. sonically and ~aesthetically~ i'm all for it, and it's also why I like new wave because it's punk with further experimentation, but I'll still find bands like Crass and more recently Cable Ties to be what punk is truly about ie. cultivating community and critiqueing the system, which helps you deal with "the darkness" rather than simply self soothing through fart jokes. I appreciate the nuance and duality either way.
Dude, totally relatable when you mentioned the time in highschool and the whole connection people had about punk/hardcore scene with substance abuse... I felt that was where my heart was in the musical perspective, but my soul wasn't there... Many of my friends from this scene were using (even lost a few of them along the way) and I was perceived as also doing so too, just because I was in the scene...
So when pop punk was more accepted by the general public it seems I wasn't the 'crazy ass-junkie-dark' kid anymore. Well, last week went to Sum 41 goodbye tour and that brought back memories.
Dookie introduced me to punk and shortly Rancid became my favorite band. Then I got into the local underground punk scene in my hometown. Green Day was for sure my gateway into the scene.
Exactly. I think lots of us got introduced ant then started to search where this genre came out of. And that is how you expand your interests. But one way or another you’ll have to get introduced to it.
Your channel has given me such a good understanding of the history of music subcultures and how influences evolve from one scene to another over time. You really really know your stuff.
Because Pop represents the complete opposite of Punk and mixing it together is pretty insulting if you value punk as something bigger beyond just music.
Glad to see you’re back at it with the videos. I really missed your takes on these things last week. I know you got other things going on and videos you like to share.
I just really look forward to these to start my days when I arrive at work. So thank you Finn
You mentioned Tony from Mest on this video. Im surprised nobody talks about Mest when talking about great pop-punk bands. Mest’s cds Wasting Time, Destination Unknown and self titled were constantly on repeat on my boombox back in my high schools years, early 2000’s. Then they fell down following their photographs disc. Anyways, would you please do a video on the strange history of Mest?
I am from Denmark and went to Australia on an exchange program in 03 - we knew about pop punk in Denmark but it was for small kid’s around 12 and I was 16 at the time. I was a bit surprised about everyone was so into that type of music. When you watch American reality shows like Laguna beach and the hills you see them in highschool all about punk and then a few years later in the hills they grew out of it. For me it is nostalgic but I only listen to it when I go running
Try "Aromatherapy" by band Chixdiggit!
I was just wondering when you were gonna drop another banger 🙏 thank you as always Finn
Sum 41, Blink, AAR are just some of the Bands why we do what we do now- And we wouldn’t want to have it any other way 🤟❤
You lost me at “modern art isn’t trash.”
Real talk
Idk music definitely sucks now
You should've kept on listening...
damn this is crazy bc i was super into all time low when i was 16 and i got into blink (in 2013-2014) BECAUSE those were THEIR influencers. Paramore is now my favourite band of all time and growing up with them and having them influence my life in a positive way was honestly a blessing. Hayley Williams still inspires me so much and taught me how to sing ❤ thanks for this awesome video
A person who feel no sympathy would not have written that song, but yeah. ❤
I hate pop punk because of the lyrical content. It feels like “punk,” for rich kids. Literally lyrical content is as dumb as falling in love in high school getting your heart broken and hanging with your friends. Problems I could never relate to.
Thank you very much. Been looking through the comments to find someone point out something that speaks to me directly on why I like or don't like music. A lot of the lyrics are corny high school stuff for kids living a nice life or trying to impress their crush or something dumb like that. Can't relate much to that either, would rather find something that helps me through some of the tough situations in life, having come from a difficult life growing up and still facing a lot of difficult issues and thinking deeper about the truth and reality of the way this world works, at the expense of people who are struggling. Like I am fed up of being mass marketed everything, ads everywhere, people only caring about money despite them lying to your face saying 'money isn't everything' when in this world it is otherwise you can't survive and how much these corporations and government want to take it all away from you based on greed. So many other topics as well I related to and thought about and I want to listen to bands and artists who can try tackle some of the real issues and provide an escape, a relief and a way to cope in the face of these pressures.
Well spoken. I think I saw a similar comment but as I’m getting into my late 30’s I have learned to find more joy in music than angst. You like what you like. Gatekeepers of music are the worst.
A band I recently found called Opal in Sky is metal, but all their songs are positive. Gives me hope.
Pop punk is hated on because the genre is so corny. There’s nothing “punk” about Green Day. Sorry. There’s definitely nothing punk about any bands mentioned in this video
I walked away from punk with Fall Out Boy played the Warp Tour and I was surrounded by middle schoolers yelling, drooling, and flashing everyone. It was time to give up trying to keep up with newness. Instead, I went back to discover punk bands I missed the first go round, like Gorilla Biscuits, Agent Orange, and MDC.
In short, I grew old and out of the current scene unfolding around me. I still love punk because it has always been this wierdness, fringy, and comical self expression against the typical pop music.
Stop right there. You've got to be kidding me. Middle schoolers were flashing everyone!?!?
@@codesm96 yes sir. It was super awkward. I had to walk away.
@jedward635 lol sorry to hear that, didn't know Warped Tour would be that insane and messed up especially when the newer line up of bands performed
I'm pretty sure that TRL clip you used with the "teenage girls" talking to Good Charlotte was actually the band THE DONNAS lol
I noticed that too. Definitely not a pop punk band.
If you listen to punk for the sound itself, you're listening to punk wrong. It's all about the message, even if it's as shallow and everyday like some Descendents songs, it is still far more important than the sound itself. If a pop-punk band has something they want to express, they are no less punk than any other punk band.
Growing up in Chicago I knew Screeching Weasel in the 80s. When they were teenagers?They started out liking Hard core.
Their first album is really something. Awful in the best way possible
I think another factor often referred to as a reason for pop punk sucking is the white suburban identity of it. White suburban young boys are seen as offsprings of privilege, brought up in bubbles detached from “real” city drama, so that takes a lot of credibility about them as punks and minimizes the weight of anything they complain about as vain.
Is pop punk actually that hated outside of some 50 year olds who still have Mohawks and comment “that’s not real punk” on Green Day Instagram videos?
As a music teacher I ask my kids why they do/don’t like songs all the time and it’s a question not enough people ask themselves. I’ve NEVER liked pop punk, but I was never aware of any of the scene issues you brought up - I just never cared for the vocal style. Once the Tom Delonge voice got popular in pop punk I couldn’t hang.
lately I found that a lot of old school punk rockers just hate a number of pop punk bands for having a strong anti-punk philosophy. Like Blink concerts being extremely expensive, or Green Day being pro authority. The would have hated their future selves in the 90s. I couldn't care less, I just don't pay 200 for a punk rock gig and move on with my life
"You need to take one step beyond cuz right now you're just standing on my head"
Listen to Rancid's Life won't Wait album and then listen to Sum 41 and Blink 182. Notice the obvious difference. Rancid is real punk rock and pop punk is just guys singing about how boring and suburban their town is.
11:00 i think whats impressive about pop punk or punk is when people can make simple sounds, sound so good and impressive and find their own ways to work with it its like having a blank canvas and just having the primary colors you can do whatever.
Never heard of Descendants before, but teh album cover of I don't want to grow up is a masterpiece. 😸
They were my favorite band in high school
As a High schooler in the early 2000's, I made punk friends and started to listen to punk but quickly transitioned to pop-punk. I didn't understand why they would make fun of me all the time.
Later on in college, I was pursuing a degree in music (I'm a drummer), and again I was judged big time for listening to pop-punk.
I went away from pop punk from 15 to 30 years old. Now 7 months later my entire playlist is Morgan Wallen and Pop punk. I hated and mocked the genre for 15 years and now am nostalgic for it. I miss being a kid and pop punk makes me remember those times.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve skipped a song that happened to be very technical, and complex because I simply didn’t enjoy the way it sounded. Sometimes simplicity is the key.
I thought Avril Lavigne was upset when she was 17 when they said that she was punk. Lol. Honestly, sometimes I never understood what genre she was. 🤔
A lot of her first album was folk (imo)
just needed to say, that even though i like both punk and pop-punk, "true" punk is much easier music to play and compose...
Your traps look progressively better in every video.
Yo his traps are looking good, good eye
He’s already old and bald. Starting a cycle now ain’t no thing
Well put, you hit the nail on the head on every point.
The two biggest problem I had in the punk scene was liking things based on what others like and the toxic idealism of negativity. You saw this in the late 90’s as the punk scene started to splinter into “factions”, like the emo, hardcore, ska, straight edge, drunk punk, and gutter punk (to name a few)
Prior to this all these groups would exist together and it was about self expression and the love of music and art.
In my opinion punk was a mentality more than a music genre, it was about independence and freedom and a celebration of individuality. It was like yes high class art is great but so is this non conventional thing too. Once you based your identity based on others you’ve lost the point.
The older I've gotten, the more I can appreciate simplicity and catchiness in music. It's much more difficult to strip things back and still be interesting, which the Ramones did well early on.
that's a pretty cohesive and profound summary, loved it. i also wanna add that i think the root of it all is that when something new is coming, it's only human nature that your identity is threatened and there's nothing more terrifying to the ego. like, you spent years and years to form your own self and then something is about to wash it away in a second, you fear that you won't matter anymore, the thing you invested in is about to be gone, so you hold on to it as hard and as long as you can, also reacting with hatred towards the thing that's taking it away. that's also why it's usually the teenage and twentysomethings generation that adopt the new trends first, they are in the middle of creating their identities and want something of their own, they want to be different. and just in general the "everything was better in the good old days" attitude of the elderly is simply just masking their fear of becoming irrelevant. not gonna lie, above 30 now, i sometimes get these vibes too, but then all i have to do is to remember, that my generation, in which i'm still just as relevant as i was, is and probably in my lifetime will always be around so it's all good
My gripe was with the bands with singers who used that nasal voice, Blink 182, New Found Glory, etc, that I still find irritating.
Trying to sound like angsty teenagers lol
Dissing the vapid content of a piece of art doesn't require the assumption that art needs to be dark and broody to be meaningful. Upbeat, positive, and/or comical things can absolutely be done in a way that's intelligent. And dark, angsty art can be stupid, too. Some things are just dumb, Man.
I’ve never heard any criticism of pop punk. I was aware that some bands got criticism for “selling out”, but the genre was wildly popular everywhere I was involved during my pre-teen and teen years.
I love Pop/Punk! I was a fair weather listener back in the day but now when I listen to it, it feels nostalgic. AFI, Green Day, MCR, Blink 182, Sum 41, etc are all really good. For example, December Underground by AFI is an amazing record!
My Chemical Romance's first two albums were mostly Post-Hardcore and Emo apart from a couple tracks (such as 'I'm not Okay').
My most embarrassing secret is that I once went to a Good Charlotte gig with a girl I was dating, just to "seal the deal"
... and it was the most excruciatingly embarrassing concert I've ever been to and seeing how much into it she was made me lose all interest in her.
@SpeedBoost dude I hate that band so much
@@derekjordangregg7468
Dude, it was the longest 70 mins of my life, and they did two encores and I think they played "Lifestyles of the Rich and the Famous" twice!
Good Charlotte was my jam when I was somewhere around 8-11. I definitely aged out of that band.
I had fun listening back then, tho.
@@SpeedBoost That actually sounds like a good time, girls who were into Pop-Punk usually was very dirty while you got to know 'em. The best girls were the girls that were into Pop-Punk and/or Emo
I get the feeling Third Wave Ska is seen in the same way, some seem to really dislike people like Reel Big Fish and others similar and I have not ever found out why. They and others pull me out of dark times and make me smile and that for me is what is important.
Got called a "poser" a lot b/c I liked ska punk.
I’ll never forget when PunkRockMBA said that emo rap was the new punk rock
I was right
I thought it was grime, drill or road rap.
@@ThePunkRockMBA Damn it, ThePunkRockMBA! This beer is warm.
35 and still listen to pop punk. I won't stop.
Bruh don’t take in anything ign says. Theyre the same critics that gave Pokemon omega ruby a low score cause there was in their words. Too much water
Damn, this video made you so relatable, probably my favorite video of yours I've seen. The messy family shit, the bright spot pop punk brought in my waves of darkness and anger... luv this dude.
Two weeks with no second channel content has me fiending!
I’m 60 and have experienced a lot of incarnations of punk since I was 15, and have found that criticism has been around since I first heard it in 1980. After decades of pondering this I’ve concluded that it basically comes down to pretentious, condescending A-holes who just want to degrade other people for their taste. It’s their personality speaking, not their superior knowledge. Best avoid those critics and not the bands you like. Their manipulators, not music critics.
If these bands are “pop” punk then what is regular “punk” Green Day and blink are just as poppy as the ramones and the clash, you don’t call them “pop punk pioneers”. Pop punk is a label that old jaded punk fans came up with after better bands out sold their favorite hardcore band that nobody knows or remember. Punk music is a pop genre.
dude I'm so sorry you had to go through all of that, no one deserves that
The hardcore rock fans are the sole reason why rock music isn’t as popular as it used to be. Y’all hate anything and never let up
Facts
If you don’t like nookie by limp bizkit just get out
Replace "rock" with "metal", and it's even more true.
Wait, the Hard-Core Rock fans or the Hardcore rock fans ruined it? I want to make sure I know which sub genre is responsible for this.
Who cares about popularity? You want to like something just because other people like it? Or do you want to like music because it speaks to you? There are millions of mainstream fans of pop bands and artists who seem to only want to like music because other people like it, because it's a trend, because it's looked at as 'cool'. That's why a lot of pop music is popular. In my honest opinion, that's the WORST reason to like music. You need something that makes you feel good regardless of whether you think other people like it or not. This is how a lot of Hardcore fans came to be, they didn't care to be shunned because the music they like connects with them but doesn't have any appeal to most people. Don't act like some of their criticisms of pop punk and pop rock bands aren't legitimate because it is. Being overly judgmental and purist I understand is a bit much, best to focus that energy on enjoying the music they like instead of spending all the time worrying about the music they don't like.
i was 5 when i got a copy of Dookie from a Gen X skater punk that was friends with my mom. I think about that guy all the time and how he changed my life. Basically though after Blink it got too poppy for me. I'll admit I kinda bought into the pop punk hate, but as i have gotten older I have not only softend my stance but I opened up my definition of what punk is to include pop punk and a bunch of other adjacent genres of music and other art styles and ideas. Even the "hardcore punks" should be praising pop punk and anything that teaches rebellous ideas to people that aren't being reached. Teens in suburbs learning self expression at an early age is great and i think will lead to making more interesting and creative adults, even if they arent punk anymore that is always a good thing. sorry i tried to be concise with my ramblings i hope i made sense thanks finno
Teens in the suburbs always had the chance to express themselves, in the nice, safe and sheltered environment they grew up in.
I don't think you have to be an incel to understand that "art" that is mainstream popular with teenage girls, like Twilight etc., is usually not very good art especially not past the surface level. There's a fine line between misogyny and just having a common sense understanding of culture. Strawman arguments like yours don't get us anywhere fast when trying to describe culture.
The same could be said of art with mainstream teenager popularity, irrespective of whether or not the predominant audience is girls. It’s not a strawman argument. Your assertion of a “common sense understanding”is merely begging the question.
@@zplapplap I agree; both teenage boy and teenage girl pop art comes with a set of assumptions. Both are assumed to be unsophisticated because of the maturity level of the audience. It's a stereotype, but it's not an unreasonable one. It fact, it's basically a tautology that immature people are going to have immature tastes in art. That doesn't really change my point, though. The only really relevant distinction is that girls are less likely to appreciate art that centers around anger and aggression, which are cornerstones of traditional punk. But there's also the other main facets of punk: irony and political/social commentary. Teenage girls are less likely to be interested in aggressive ironic social commentary than they are in Taylor Swift breakup songs. That's not "begging the question," it's verifiable fact.