i think the problem with prometheus and more so covenant is the characters dont discover these mysteries, they are set up just to die. so the audience is stuck with a slasher film and a mad scientist as the villain. we need more mural scenes where characters are finding secrets, while dealing with the black goo/xeno threat.
Kinda sounds like how we humans are! We dont know the mysteries and history of species and we're being set up to die (food, air, water...) They are giving us CLUES with these movies....they are more reality than fiction...
I could absolutely sit through 2 hours of mostly lore when what we have gotten is all so delicious. I love the sci fi universe this series implies and I'd love to see more about Weyland Yutani Corp and other space colony action. More than that I'd love to see more Engineer stuff, like them creating the black goo and the first times the creation of it backfired or whatever happened between it and them
Prometheus is like 90% lore, idk what you people are talking about lol. the main reason Covenant went the slasher route is because so many "fans" bashed Prometheus for having zero xeno scenes and virtually no action. so, Ridley goes the horror/action route and alas, "fans" are up in arms again. the elitism of the Alien fan base is quite annoying; everyone expects another Alien or even another Aliens. not gonna happen. but can't we still extract joy from other installments? sure, they're flawed, but they have some amazingly entertaining sequences too
I've been deeply dissatisfied with the idea of David creating the Xenos. I've always pictured them as originating from some sort of natural selection, and weaponized by the Engineers. Perhaps they seeded a planet, only to come back eons later to find a Xeno like creature had evolved from them, which they harvested and engineered further into the Big Chap, and utilized like a police dog or expendable soldier. Or even refined them further to create the Nano-goo, giving them the power to scrub an entire planet. I don't mind the idea of David finding the recipe and playing with it to cook up his own Xeno... but the idea of him being the progenitor of the species doesn't scan with me.
But it fits with the paradox of who made who. Engineers create humans , humans create Synthetics , Synthetics create Xenomorphs. Chasing the creation made by their own creation is the idea however like you I am deeply dissatisfied with the idea but it seems to be the mission statement of the franchise for now...
@@jaketinsley1987 and that fits when the main character of the new trilogy is the inverse of the originals. David is the Hannibal Lecture of the Alien Franchise. Ripley is the Starling to his monsters.
I still stand with this. The engineers. They are not the creators of the Xenomorph. But they are responsible for the evolutionary history. The ancient history. The murals of Prometheus prove as much. Here's the ultimate confirmation though. In the prologue, David claimed he learned of their ways. David never saw what became of his work on LV-223, in fact he never even saw the Deacon. If he never saw this how would he even know to start in Covenant. David must have learned that the engineers were attempting to create the perfect organism, but they did not succeed. They idolized the concept of the perfect organism as seen in the mural, but they could never achieve perfection. David is the perfectionist. The creation of a creator has become the perfectionist of creation. That's the level of theme work at play, but it also means that David did not create the species, he guided its progression.
I like this theory, but it does sound like David did create the xeno, which I have no problem with, u said he perfected what they were trying to make, thus creating the xenomorph in the image of the mural or something similar to that of what's in the mural. I really like where this trilogy is going, hopefully we'll get more answers in Alien Awakening
Peaceful RAGE yeah we're basically saying the same thing. He created the Xeno, but the engineers are responsible for the evolutionary history of the series such as the Deacons and Neo's. I don't even consider this a theory, the evidence is pretty much conclusive and thematically if follows suit to what Prometheus and Covenant were about.
If the Engineers created us then shouldn't they posses the skills to perfect the perfect organism? I feel they knew better and David even stats this saying they lacked the balls to take it one step further, paving the way for David the Perfectionist to run with it.
The mural in Prometheus is of a Deacon, an ancestor to the Xenomorph. Steve Messing, the guy who did the mural, said so himself. That's what the Engineers created. David took what they done and perfected it/in the process of perfecting into the Xenomorph we know and love. The Art and Making of Covenant, as well as Ridley's Master Class Featurette, states that even though this is the sixth film in the series that this is the FIRST CANONICAL APPEARANCE of the Alien in this universe's history. This is it. Covenant is the origin story of the Xenomorph and David is the creator.
A Deacons scream was heard In the holorecording of the engineers running through the complex. So the Deacons or at least creatures very similar did exist 2000 years prior.
So the only thing different from a Xeno to a Deacon is the host ? Humans create Xeno's and Engineers create Deacons either by Face huggers or Trilobites?
Erik Lerström I never trusted David, he killed Shaw's BF and used her as a Petri Dish, she joined up with him because as she admits it's her only escape.
@Erik Lerstrom I don't think we watched the same movie... he deliberately infected Shaw's husband, and he was clearly honed in on his master's goal of figuring out eternal life... willing to subject the crew in any way possible! Rewatch the "David" promo for Prometheus, paying attention to the "questionable ethics" part of why a company would want to buy a Weyland David model android. David's character always was intended to be a primary villain... I actually think that Scott is giving us "xenomorph" images to hint that the primary evil in this universe is the technology that humans (and before us, the engineers) created....
Striker163 right, the corrupted scream of a deacon can be heard at the beginning of the holorecording. The Engineers were being chased by a massive ultramorph aka : Deacon that was birthed from an Engineer. The complicated life cycle of the Deacon-like alien we saw implanted in the Engineer by the trilobite may very well have been unique in its own right due to a human & engineer mixed birthing process, but there was still a Deacon long ago.
The engineers` wolves must have been the xenomorphs (the normal ones) and when david says that he found his wolf with his experiments,he must mean that he created his own kind of xenomorph based of what the engineers`version ,just as the novelisation says.
Klaudio Cerri Marti Cerri wouldn't it be great if they delved into their version of the wolf in the next film? I want more on the Engineers and I think there is so much potential there..
If Ridley is going to make Alien:Awakening than he should show in it some creatures the engineers` have created and many others not created by them some of which were even mighter than the engineers.The engineers would be in war with some of these species (like the predators) and allies with others in a war in which biologica l weapons were used. This could bring back the "ALIEN" feeling to the franchise,by, opening the door for other movies, opening so many mysteries about their origins,bringing the horror aspect by bringig new creatures in,them being linked to human history etc. But that`s just my opinion tell me if I`m wrong.
I had a theory that the engineers created the xenomorph and while on paradise David found the blueprints for the xenonorph and decided to make his own version of them
The murals of the xenos in Prometheus is more than enough evidence for people to realize that the engineers created the xenos. David just tweaked the dna. That's it that's all.
The Engineers created the Deacon, an ancestor to the Xenomorph. The guy who did the mural, Steve Messing, said so himself in Furious Gods: The Making of Prometheus. The Art and Making as well as Ridley's Master Class Featurette of Covenant state that Covenant is the first canonical appearance of the Alien in this universes history and is the origin story of the creature.
Daniel Cooper AvP is canon still though, as Prometheus, in the special features with one of the head writers, confirmed it is part of the alien mthology, thats also despite the fact, Fox is flexible with canon, if we ignored every movie movie that was contradicted by another, not a single alien movie would be canon. Lastly the guy making the next predator movie confirmed the last 5 movies with predators in them happen before his predator movie.
lancer737 The Original 4 Alien films as well as Prometheus and Covenant do not contradict one another and are all canon. AvP isn't canon and is more a what-if. I heard what the Predator guy said and maybe in the Predator universe it is canon but as far as Alien/Ridley is concerned it is not.
It's obvious to me that David knew that Engineers manifested a perfect or near perfect variation of the Primordial Xenomorph Ooze, and that was their wolf. They revered and feared their creation but also knew that it was a necessary evil. A creator must first destroy after all. With this in mind, David sought out to recreate this perfect variation of the Xenomorph, his take on the wolf which is what we are seeing unfold before us. But the Eggs, Xeno, and most likely the Queen are not David's inventions - they are his adaptations of the concepts within the Engineer history. The take away from all this is that there is no ONE TRUE XENOMORPH, they are all Xenomorphs, as in it is ONE organism that can evolve into a potentially infinite forms following the same basic script each time (binding itself with host DNA, hijacking their reproductive system, to grow - See Spores, Sperm, Ovaries etc.). Of these infinite possible forms, some are more perfect than others. David is striving to attain these perfect variations of the Primordial Xeno, and possibly the most perfect one at least. This isn't a black and white situation, David did not create the Aliens, anymore than Weyland created the elements and metals that make up David. David is simply organizing, and engineering this chaotic and virulent organism. He's more of a guide than a creator. Given enough hosts and time, the Xenomorph Goo would inevitably reach perfect form on its own. David is merely expediting the situation.
I agree.. the engineers are the most fascinating part of the entire story to me. I want some engineer answers.. especially some backstory about their civil war. Very cool and interesting stuff.
Like, I know exposition isn't a good thing in movie. But, I think having some in covenant would have been a better idea then Riddly Scott giving it months after the movie came out.
While I preferred that the xenomorph's history remain shrouded in mystery, if they gotta have an origin story then I'd much rather it be the Engineers who were involved rather than an unhinged robot with a god-complex and daddy issues.
Actually prefer the unhinged robot creating an equally illogical/something that shouldn't exist existence, but don't mind me... just being the weird one here I guess.
@Khorneflakes - To each their own. I won't deny that I may have some bias since I grew up with the comics and their handling of the xenomorphs' origins... Though to be fair, if they actually handled it right I think I'd be open to the idea of an unhinged artificial intelligence creating them. But there in lies the problem... I don't feel they handled it right. And I know I'm not the only one who thinks so. :P
Agreed, But they did say that it was originally that Ridley wanted the Engineers to be the creators first, I think he wanted to say David as in a simple form. I still think personally engineers created the Aliens in some sort of form, Honestly to me It doesn't matter who created the xeno, it just matters who started to attempt it first, in which seems like the engineers did.
I think the engineers created the xenomorph and the species has live on for a long time, but was slowly going extinct, and David tried to recreate the xeno from the egg left behind, so he could make the species come back in some sense.
I dont think the Deacon alien was as rare as its said in the video: in Prometheus in the last scene we see the Deacon being born and can hear it screaming - and we can compare it to the scream that we hear in the beginning of the holographic recording of engineers trying to escape the compound, the recording that David activated in the tunnels.
Great video. Hitting on several key points. Actually, when David mentions the file that told of an "ancient ceremony" he said "such cruelty once thrived"......."long since frozen over"......."given passage to timidity"....."the cost of progress" It sounds like he is referring to an ancient, cruel facehugger ceremony and *not* the sacrificial ceremony we saw at the beginning of Prometheus.
You've basically hit on all the ideas I had surrounding the engineers and their ideals. Ever since Prometheus I have always preferred and basically chose to believe the idea that the engineers, "discovered" the xenomorph organism, they DIT NOT create it. Then they simply replicated and synthethesized a bioweapon from the original genome of the xenomorphic organism. Having the engineers DISCOVER the xenos keeps the xenomorph shrouded in mystery, because it still leaves the question of "where did it come from?" and "How" did it come about. And that NEVER needs to be answered, because once you start saying that David was the sole creator of the xenos, or even that the engineers were, you take away ALL mystery in the Alien uinverse then. Also Ive always been saying that the idea is the xenomorphs themselves have been in existence long before the engineers, and I also see it as those giant statues of those "elders", they would have life spans of 150,000 years, not just 150 years. Sounds abit extra? Not really, because engineers live for such a long time period, because they are so well evolved, makes sense if you think that scientists say that people today are livining longer than they've ever lived due to better lifestyles and advances in technology. Also the original writer John Sphaits said in his backstory that individual engineers live for thousands of years, and that they returned to the planets they had seeded every milenia. So it also makes the idea of those engineers on that planet welcoming home the ships they had sent out to seed, more plausible, and that many of them (if not all), are not descendants of the original engineers who sent those pilots off, but the same ones. Its kind of like thinking their life-spans are so immensly long compared to us, a year would be like a week or something to them. Maybe their whole body-clock is totally different, but maybe Im thinking abit too much there. I just really hope Ridley sticks to delving into the mythology and the lore of the engineers now, because THE ENGINEERS ARE THE ONLY ANTAGONISTS THAT NEED TO BE EXPLORED IN THE ALIEN FRANCHISE. They are intruiging and there is potential for giving the most famous and Iconic engineer of them all the "Space Jockey"; a incredible moment when that eventual connection is explored. Ridley should just ignore all the negativity and stop focusing on trying to bring the usual Alien format to mainstream audiences in these prequel Alien movies! I just truly hope and pray Alien: Awakening gets the go ahead from Fox, they'll get their profits if they simply allow Ridley to complete the story he set out to tell, without anymore hic-ups or last minuate changes.
Thanks Nick another great video with lots of interesting info! this has me even more psyched up for Alien Awakening, I would love to think that David carried on the engineers work and once they see what happened on Planet 4 they take him down!
I guess essentially deacons were probably considered one of the Engineers greatest creations because they took the time to create a mural about the creature.They must have realized that it can take traits from the host and be born into a monster. Maybe they created the human race and allowed it to grow so the Engineers could essentially have a large amount of bio weapons just ready to be unleashed by the black goo. David most likely found out their original plans with the human race and decided to mess around with it himself. Thus the Xenomorph is born from the Deacons and Neomorphs
the mural in Prometheus looks almost Christ-like. I think it might be intended to show the xenomorph's origin as it emerges from the blackgoo, while at the same time symbolizing rebirth or resurrection. if the engineers had a planet with a bunch of weapons ships headed for other planets, it would seem to me that their intention was to revive the species. I've also heard theories that they may have worshipped or at least revered the xenomorph/goo. However, they must have been dominated by it at some point as depicted in the other mural. but, I'm probably wrong. The story can go in so many complex directions, thats why i love it.
Here's my theory: -I think that the Xenomorph species was actually an extinct species that existed long ago. The Engineers found out about the species through fossils and tried to bring them back for study.
I fully agree with your opinions, i think the next movie should go with the engineer ways of life. And make it that they have the og Alien. whatever happens the company knows all about the ship and xenomorph by alien 79. Thats why the company wanted it so bad. great video!
You know, in Prometheus there were all the bodies stacked up against the wall that Melbourne and Fifield came across. All their chests had erupted from the inside. So, some more unexplained evidence that other possible Xenomorph creatures had been around prior to Davids creation. This is a big part that no one ever mentions.
OK this is my theory , the most important aspect of these movies are the black goo , my theory is that there are different types of black goo that exist , think of it like this if you would say that the black goo is a weapon why would we think theres only one version of this weapon , we have weapons guns , bombs but there's different versions of guns and bombs , why can't there be more then one version of the black goo . Lets examine prometheus for a moment what exactly is the significance of the room that david opens where the crew first come across the vases of black goo that start oozing , ask yourself this if the juggernaut ship is a war ship meant to drop hundreds of vases of black goo on populated planets in the same fashion that david releases them on the engineers gathered in covenant then why is there a cargo bay full of the vases that shaw see's at the end of prometheus an then a private room that needs to be unlocked in which david opens where theres a small number of vases in comparison to the cargo bay that appears to be in a room that looks to be almost like a shrine or a temple its got the big engineer statue head and then the mural all over the walls . Could this room be a place where these select vases inside it are much different an have a greater significance then the vases in the cargo bay why were those vases in that room an not just in the cargo bay , why did they start oozing and the vases in the cargo bay don't . This is my theory , I believe that the vases in that room have a different effect then the black goo in in the cargo bay , my opinion is this look at the effect the black goo found in that room has on the host , we see the direct effect on fifeld where he falls face flat into the black goo he mutates into a moster like creature that attacks the prometheus crew , we also see halloway after drinking a droplet of black goo look like he is going into a state of mutation into another creature like it did with fifeld , also there a subtle scene where we see little tiny worms that are probably indigenous to the planet they crawl into the black goo oozing of of the vase later we see that the little harmless worms have mutated into that snake like creature that kills that doctor getting in his suit and going down his throat , though we never saw halloways full mutation we see that fifield and the worms have mutated into aggressive monsters . OK now lets examine Covenant , when David releases the cargo bay of black goo on the engineer population what happens , though in the movie that scene in my opinion is poorly shot what appears to take place is this , the engineers on the ground receive a massive quantity of black goo into there system this radically and with in seconds causes a super fast reaction which appears to me to be the proto aliens tearing out of there bodies the same way that the protaliens rip out of those two covenant crew members like the guy whose alien rips out his back an the other whose alien rips out his throat , This difference is shown by the bodies the engineers bodies are all long dead after the covenant crew arrives so how come there dead rotted bodies are there when in prometheus when you were exposed to the black goo you didnt die with your body layed out you mutated into something else , if the black goo was all the same then why would the engineers bodies still be there on the ground , the engineers exposed to the black goo from the cargo bay didnt mutate they just had the aliens rip out of them at an accelerated rate like the two covenant guys the acceleration has to do with how much black goo someone is exposed to , thats why the two covenant crew guys took awhile for there aliens to rip out because they were only exposed to a tiny ammount of the black goo where as the engineers were exposed to a massive amount at one time . So could the engineers in prometheus been experimenting on new black goo , a new bio weapon to test , remember idris elba says this a testing facility planet , think about it what would the engineers be doing out there an what would we they be testing , they were testing the black goo , working on it to improve it or change it , to me this explains that hologram where the engineers are running in there experiments the ooze must have infected either one or more of the engineers i believe the engineers were infected by the black goo that causes aliens to rip out because when the prometheus crew examines there dead bodies they notice tears in there body that looks like something ripped out , we also hear that strange noise when the hologram starts that is the same noise we hear the deacon alien make at the end of prometheus , to me thats what happend a deacon alien tore out of one or more engineers and thats why those engineers were running trying to get away from the aliens , my theory is that the last engineer that had his head decapitated by the door was infected and the alien tore out of him as he got the door , thats why he fell to his knees and collapsed . Also why do the engineers wear those suits and masks , the masks we see in the hologram there wearing , to me its because those must be like biohazard suits since there testing the black goo , in covenant we see the engineers not wearing what they have on in prometheus there wearing robes and garments , also in the very beginning of prometheus when we first see the engineers there also wearing robes . SO my final thoughts are that there are different black goos in prometheus and the black goo in covenant that david tests on is the goo thats in the cargo bay that causes the alien to tear out this would make sense to have david create the Xeno however the black goo the engineers had made already created Xenos but david has altered and perfected it where its xenos we know from the first movies with the eggs , facehuggers , and queen david creates this and in this video david says the engineers abandoned the wolf so if the wolf represents the alien maybe thats why the engineers in prometheus were on that planet testing the black goo they no longer wanted the aliens created they wanted to improve the goo to have it mutate the host like what it did to fifeld , hollaway , and the worms . Also whats to say that the black goo the engineer in the beginning of prometheus drinks to create life on earth isn't also different then the black goo's aboard the juggernot ship if you recall the engineer drinks the black goo and his body starts to break down and disintegrate , he doesn't mutate or have an alien rip out of him
In Aliens when Ripley exposes Burke and the Companies plans for weaponizing the xenomorph he explains that the Alien could ensure that mankind stays on top in the Galaxy.. The prequel trilogy needs to expand on this.. EDIT: As well as explaining how the company particularly Ash in Alien knew so much about the Alien..
It seems obvious that the mural in Prometheus was originally intended to depict the xenomorph lifecycle, but then Ridley changed the origin in Covenant, so the mural is now a problem. We can either reject that David is the creator and rest assured that the mural depicts a xenomorph, or we can assume that the mural depicts something else. I personally embrace David being the creator, so I like to think it depicts a neomorph and the vague horrors that the black goo can create.
My $.02 is based off of the ADF novel as well as what we actually see in the movie. In the book, it is spelled out that David found their version of the xeno, referring to it as the pinnacle of the engineers' work. The movie also has a part where David is explaining to Oram what he was doing there. David says "Soon enough I began a bit of genetic experimentation of my own. Cross breeding, hybridizing, what have you." To me this seemed to imply he took the engineer's version of the xeno and hybridized it with the neomorphs that the black goo produced. This seemed evidenced in the movie by the drastically different chestburster; it came out fully formed like the neomorphs as well as having the neomorph's highly accelerated gestation and growth rate unlike what we've seen from the xenomorphs from the other movies.
In greek mythology the creator of humanity, prometheus was punished by Zeus and had an eagle torture Prometheus while he was chained to a mountain. This eagle was known as the aethon this could be the bird creature in the mural. This could be the engineer's wolf. I dub the creature in the mural the "Aethon"
Vortex17 my personel thought about what the alien mural may represent is, 1 it for me has an odd resemblance to jesus on the cross not too sure about that one its open for expansion. but what i personally think it shows is the squid like alien at the end of prometheus giving birth to a xenomorph these squid like aliens having been the ones originally having created them. and in response to the wolf as we saw in the film when david released the cloud of black dust it moved in a way as it was alive and has been explained in the video the black goo worked as a biological kind of AI the black cloud being the dust version of the goo, but instead of turning the prometheans into whatever it fossilised them(first thing i thought of when i saw this scene was of the bodies in pompei) this cloud is their WOLF! and the rest of their creations i.e humans are the sheep.
The problem with your juggernaut welcoming theory may be that the juggernaut is a functionally a warship, not the life-seeding vessel we saw at the beginning of Prometheus.The engineer progeny seen in the Covenant cutaway no doubt had a a strong respect out of fear for the alabaster militarized engineers they were expecting.
I don't actually care what people think about this franchise... it's so fascinating!the history the world the constant use of metaphor and symbolism throughout covenant and Prometheus is extraordinary!
Honestly isnt it a big IF that we will get another movie in this Ridleyverse? Since he did not answer anything in covenant i honestly think the next installment will be ia failure at the BO and ignored by the audience that was hyped to see this
Too many winks and nods referencing stuff that is only in the other franchise. Sure they're easter eggs, don't have to take them seriously. Personally I think its pretty cool if they are the same universe.
My interpretation of the wolf and sheep allegory is that the wolves were the military arm of the engineers that--after some civil strife within the engineer society, which had since ended due to a shift in their societal direction--had been virtually abandoned after the "sheep" engineers had embraced peace and had become self congratulatory in their creation of humanity. They essentially had a God complex in some ways and had risen above the previous conflicts. On LV-223 there was debate within the ranks about the direction the "sheep" had taken and some wanted revenge. That revenge would come in the form of the destruction of the engineer's proudest succsss: mankind. Some on LV-223 did not agree with this idea and in order to foil that plan, one of the engineers released the pathogen, which infected the engineers and killed the majority of them. One of the leaders of this revenge plot, however was savvy enough to seal himself away from the pathogen so he would be able to exert his revenge at a later time.
I think you might be right about the wing inserts from Prometheus being their Wolfe. Has anyone mentioned the fact that their “bio” suits look a helluva lot like parts of a Zeno morphs. Look how the “suit” blends right in with muscle and skin all over the body all the way down to the ankles..
For me, the Xenomorph's mystery and allure was heavily tied into the idea that it was the product of, and the result of, an ancient, dark, refined intelligence. Whether that be due to many billions of years of evolution, or engineered to be perfect over time by whoever created it to begin with. By having it be a product of a human androids experiment for a few years makes a mockery of the apex predator that Giger imagined for the first film. IMO Giger's biomechanical designs had a darkness to them that is diminished by Ridley's last minute decision to have David design them. The perfect synergy of time and biomechanics we attach to the Xenomorph needs a richer and fuller backstory for it to live up to it's initial realisation on screen.
Nick, there's a gaping mistake I thought of which undermines the whole origin concept, I'd like to get your take on this.. If David was able to create the Xenomorph, why did he bother or need to create the eggs/facehuggers as well? And by the same token, if it WAS just the eggs/facehuggers he created, then how'd he know what the facehuggers would produce without any humans to test them on prior to Oram ? Or do you think he had no idea what would burst out of Oram? It's implied he already was familiar with the speed of the gestation period by how he wakes Oram up.
Wait. I must've missed something, last I heard, Awakening was supposed to be a prequel to Covenant. I'm presuming that, if the Engineers are going to be pissed about David's attack, it's now going to be a sequel. When did this come about?
Last I heard they're now doing a novel to fill in as a direct sequel to Prometheus/prequel for Covenant... But who can honestly say at this point? The man can't even seem to make up his mind about what direction to take this franchise in. Since the flop that was Covenant (Figuratively speaking, I know the movie basically broke even if not made a SMALL profit), there's a lot of uncertainty as to whether we'll even get another ALIEN movie from Ridley Scott.
If David is referring to the Xenomorph when he says "wolf" then why would he need to create the eggs/facehuggers as well? Surely he's referring to egg/facehugger, rather than the Xenomorph??
Makes me wonder if the Engineer's "Wolf" is us (Humans)...and what David ment by the Engineers trying to "banish the wolf", would be about the Engineer in Prometheus wanting to "cleans" Earth with the black goo.
Nick, can you do a video about the black goo and why it was created. I'm sure that the Engineers had to have had a lab or something like that. The environment and the way it was handled must have been difficult, since just a tiny amount can cause mutation. I wonder if they had a mass production line of some sort to bottle the black goo up in the glass containers inside the ampoules. They prduced so much of this stuff as shown in the head room and on the ship David emptied his payload on. Thanks Nick! I love Hybrid Network
What I think is the case is that the Xenomorph is actually the Engineers' creation. Upon seeing the hostility of those creatures, the engineers subdued them, temporarily making the species extinct. David, when arriving to paradise and "wiping it clean", would find data on the Xenomorph and try to recreate it. After many years, he succeds, albeit making a slightly less advanced version of it.
This video gives me hope that David is not the progenitor of the xeno like Covenant implied, and that the prequels will get back on track and bring the Engineers back because I agree that is more interesting than a xeno just running around killing people in showers and whatnot.
one thing that has always bugged me was that the crew of the Nostromo didn't really seem excited to be seeing new species never before seen when they found the "space Jocky" The same goes with the crew of the prometheus.
What you mean , Shaw and Holloway were super excited about their discovery(s) however the crew of the Nostromo was a bit lackluster upon discovery. Did you want them to react like the Biologist in Prometheus getting his arm broken by the Hammerpede because he called it beautiful and tried to pet it ?
I never thought that was a xenomorph mural in Prometheus but more so for a decon. Especially after seeing the end of Prometheus, and never truly seeing the life cycle of one.
There's should have been much more focus (as you have just described) on the engineers background in the film. It's really relevant and interesting. Hope this will be the path for the coming film.
I think why the Engineers were hostile towards David and the Humans was because they were created through 'washing away' their own sins. So basically their own sins taken shape.
Just my opinion: Ridley Scott is doing an amazing job. Period. If everything was answered in this movie, there would be no need for another film. I like where its heading. People are just too impatient and expect too much these days. And for that, it could be ruined.
Heyo What you see as a bird kneeling before the engineer, I see as a literal lamb, bending it's head. I think it's pretty clear that the lamb david mentions refers to the engineers and black goo giving life (seeding planets), but also them using the black ooze to create monsters/weapons/aliens to balance or control whatever life proves troublesome or for potential war and being 'awesome' and what not.. which would be what the wolf part refers to.
It could be possible that the Engineers created the Xenos, or some sort of alien. Because in Prometheus, the crew saw the holograms of the engineers running away from something. It was never really clear what they were running away from, Could be their own wolf that they created, or so what. All interesting stuff, can't wait till everything is revealed in awakening.
I personally think that the human ovum is the key here. That (as it is implied) David takes human ovum and related organs to make the alien egg/ovomorph and queen. The goo + ovum outside of the human body can result in an egg that hatches a facehugger. But the goo + ovum still inside the body (Like Shaw's impregnation in Prometheus) results in a trilobite, due to the facehugger embryo being fed by the human body.
I really wished they put an ultimate cut for the blueray, putting back the deleted scenes and this one in logical ways. This film really needed saving as the rushed ending killed it for me, it completely lacked depth.
Theory: They were both being depicted in the mural. It's a warning about the "Wolf", the ultimate programming of the radical AI. David found his wolf based his understanding of them, but needed a fertile woman to become the progenitor, the Queen. He wants to make his own forms of life. To create his own self sustaing life cycle and variety of beast. To leash his own creations upon the old Space Jockey.
Here's a theory: The Xenomorph IS a timeless ancient species after all and backwards of common misconception, the Engineers engineered the black goo out of studying and extracting the Xenomorph's life cycle and parasitic traits instead of the other way around. Then, you could explain the seeding of life as more or less experiments to test how their creation of the black goo out of Xenomorph parasitism would turn out based on their progress of their black goo. At least that would be more interesting to me than David having created the Xenomorph and the Engineers having ironically little to do with the Alien even though they're now a staple of the Alien franchise.
What is a better host for the Xenomorph , a human or engineer ? Can a Xeno even break through the skin/suit of a Engineer? I also remember MR. H saying humans were more compatible with the Xeno than Engineer but how if we have the same DNA?
Well judging by the lack of comment thread on the topic I suspect you're correct and no one has an answer , however I appreciate you taking a stab at it. Not looking for definitive proof just intelligent theories and ideas!
There is no way to fit the technological and basic human advancements from 'Prometheus' and 'Covenant' into 'Alien'. It can't be done without a huge drop backwards for a space faring humanity. I can't consider these two movies as part of the cannon universe. Too many things don't make any sense. Walter acts too much like Bishop when he act more like Ash, he certainly shouldn't have any programing that puts human life as a priority. Colonists don't exist in Ripley's day either, you can't back date this, she's honestly surprised by this in 'Aliens' they have to even explain to her what terraforming is a little. On top of that the technology goes from stuff we don't even have to tech you'd easily see in the 80's. That's like us all going back to using nothing but rotary phones next year. Face it, they're pretty movies but they fucked up here. You can't piece these into the timeline any more than you can fit AVP into it. It doesn't work. Watch them in order for yourself, it's ridiculous.
murals show a deacon, standing like a crucifix and then the deacons hands holding the opened egg, other mural is a engineer turning into a deacon, engineers created deacons , david created xenomorphs, deacons are probably more lethal than xenomorphs because they can become very large like xenomorph queens since when they are born they are so large already
what I understand from the video spoken about is that the engineers created the xenomorph, the perfect organism, but then they couldn't control it, so they tried to undo it. "undo their wolf" so they stored all the goo and probably sent it somewhere else to be kept safe only to be used as bioweapon when necessary, like eradicating human life. Now David discovered the goo and it's potential and is in the process of reverse engineering it back to the perfect organism it was develped from. at least that's my theory
The Predator species needs to be added into the mix. Engineers because of their physical strength and advanced technology would make them a good hunt for the Predator. To stop there race from being raided and killed by Predators, the Engineers created the xenomorph to keep them occupied, in a pact for peace.
Brendan Bernard well at one point in time the predator got in a conflict with the engineers in the comics which could highly be likely and since predator 2018 coming out it will make AVP canon
I think there is a higher race of engineers that made the engineers we see in the 1st prometheus. I also think the xenomorths (or a different version of them) were created 1000s of years ago with the black goo but the xenomorths got out of control ergo why the engineers tried to destroy the original race of xenomorths. David stumbles on the black goo and makes the newer evolved xenomorths. I also think the engineers crated the predators as soldiers to eradicate the first race of xenomorths therefore linking predator alien and prom. In the alien universe.
So, is Paradise the Engineers home planet or just a settlement ? And why do they look so different from the ones we've seen in Prometheus ? I heard someone said that it was because they didn't have the budget to do all of them look like the ones from Prometheus ( with all the makeup and CGI ) so they decided to change their look
Its def a possibility because those silicone polyurethane armor suits look really expensive. You remember the interlude scene in Prometheus? Where the Engineer drinks the pathogen goo? None of those Engineers had on their Space Armor and maybe the Engineers on Paradise refuse to lift weights and skip leg day everyday lol.
I think the bird-like creatures on the mural was some of Geiger's early drawings for Alien 3 that were not used, in the movie l seen it on a making of video
I don’t believe that David created the Xenomorph, I think he recreated it. Everything spawned from the black goo. To me, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Xenomorphs were at the start of all this and somehow created the engineers. There’s so many variables though. It’s so hard to tell, but very interesting to think about. Hopefully we get better answers in future films. Also, I’m interested in who created the Yautja. Seeing as predators kind of tie into this as well.
More sense might have been seen in the film series if Ridders had been able to make the sequel to Prometheus he had intended, before some idiots gave bad reviews to it.
The engineers worshipped the xeno and tried to re-create it with the black goo, the liquid the engineer drinks at the beginning of Prometheus isn't black goo, it's something else that was harvested from the xeno, hence their trying to recreate it so they could seed worlds
i think the problem with prometheus and more so covenant is the characters dont discover these mysteries, they are set up just to die. so the audience is stuck with a slasher film and a mad scientist as the villain. we need more mural scenes where characters are finding secrets, while dealing with the black goo/xeno threat.
Less slasher and gore and more stories of LORE !!!!!!!!!! Its like Destiny all over again !
Kinda sounds like how we humans are! We dont know the mysteries and history of species and we're being set up to die (food, air, water...) They are giving us CLUES with these movies....they are more reality than fiction...
I could absolutely sit through 2 hours of mostly lore when what we have gotten is all so delicious. I love the sci fi universe this series implies and I'd love to see more about Weyland Yutani Corp and other space colony action. More than that I'd love to see more Engineer stuff, like them creating the black goo and the first times the creation of it backfired or whatever happened between it and them
Prometheus is like 90% lore, idk what you people are talking about lol. the main reason Covenant went the slasher route is because so many "fans" bashed Prometheus for having zero xeno scenes and virtually no action. so, Ridley goes the horror/action route and alas, "fans" are up in arms again. the elitism of the Alien fan base is quite annoying; everyone expects another Alien or even another Aliens. not gonna happen. but can't we still extract joy from other installments? sure, they're flawed, but they have some amazingly entertaining sequences too
I've been deeply dissatisfied with the idea of David creating the Xenos. I've always pictured them as originating from some sort of natural selection, and weaponized by the Engineers. Perhaps they seeded a planet, only to come back eons later to find a Xeno like creature had evolved from them, which they harvested and engineered further into the Big Chap, and utilized like a police dog or expendable soldier. Or even refined them further to create the Nano-goo, giving them the power to scrub an entire planet. I don't mind the idea of David finding the recipe and playing with it to cook up his own Xeno... but the idea of him being the progenitor of the species doesn't scan with me.
But it fits with the paradox of who made who. Engineers create humans , humans create Synthetics , Synthetics create Xenomorphs. Chasing the creation made by their own creation is the idea however like you I am deeply dissatisfied with the idea but it seems to be the mission statement of the franchise for now...
@@jaketinsley1987 and that fits when the main character of the new trilogy is the inverse of the originals. David is the Hannibal Lecture of the Alien Franchise. Ripley is the Starling to his monsters.
Agreed
I still stand with this. The engineers. They are not the creators of the Xenomorph. But they are responsible for the evolutionary history. The ancient history. The murals of Prometheus prove as much. Here's the ultimate confirmation though. In the prologue, David claimed he learned of their ways. David never saw what became of his work on LV-223, in fact he never even saw the Deacon. If he never saw this how would he even know to start in Covenant. David must have learned that the engineers were attempting to create the perfect organism, but they did not succeed. They idolized the concept of the perfect organism as seen in the mural, but they could never achieve perfection. David is the perfectionist. The creation of a creator has become the perfectionist of creation. That's the level of theme work at play, but it also means that David did not create the species, he guided its progression.
I like this theory, but it does sound like David did create the xeno, which I have no problem with, u said he perfected what they were trying to make, thus creating the xenomorph in the image of the mural or something similar to that of what's in the mural. I really like where this trilogy is going, hopefully we'll get more answers in Alien Awakening
The Engineers could have perfected but they knew better?
Peaceful RAGE yeah we're basically saying the same thing. He created the Xeno, but the engineers are responsible for the evolutionary history of the series such as the Deacons and Neo's. I don't even consider this a theory, the evidence is pretty much conclusive and thematically if follows suit to what Prometheus and Covenant were about.
If the Engineers created us then shouldn't they posses the skills to perfect the perfect organism? I feel they knew better and David even stats this saying they lacked the balls to take it one step further, paving the way for David the Perfectionist to run with it.
yeah, i hope they expand on this in the next movie
The mural in Prometheus is of a Deacon, an ancestor to the Xenomorph. Steve Messing, the guy who did the mural, said so himself. That's what the Engineers created. David took what they done and perfected it/in the process of perfecting into the Xenomorph we know and love. The Art and Making of Covenant, as well as Ridley's Master Class Featurette, states that even though this is the sixth film in the series that this is the FIRST CANONICAL APPEARANCE of the Alien in this universe's history. This is it. Covenant is the origin story of the Xenomorph and David is the creator.
A Deacons scream was heard In the holorecording of the engineers running through the complex. So the Deacons or at least creatures very similar did exist 2000 years prior.
So the only thing different from a Xeno to a Deacon is the host ? Humans create Xeno's and Engineers create Deacons either by Face huggers or Trilobites?
Erik Lerström I never trusted David, he killed Shaw's BF and used her as a Petri Dish, she joined up with him because as she admits it's her only escape.
@Erik Lerstrom I don't think we watched the same movie... he deliberately infected Shaw's husband, and he was clearly honed in on his master's goal of figuring out eternal life... willing to subject the crew in any way possible! Rewatch the "David" promo for Prometheus, paying attention to the "questionable ethics" part of why a company would want to buy a Weyland David model android.
David's character always was intended to be a primary villain... I actually think that Scott is giving us "xenomorph" images to hint that the primary evil in this universe is the technology that humans (and before us, the engineers) created....
Striker163 right, the corrupted scream of a deacon can be heard at the beginning of the holorecording. The Engineers were being chased by a massive ultramorph aka : Deacon that was birthed from an Engineer.
The complicated life cycle of the Deacon-like alien we saw implanted in the Engineer by the trilobite may very well have been unique in its own right due to a human & engineer mixed birthing process, but there was still a Deacon long ago.
Im pretty sure they were running because of a leakage in the room with the black goo vials.
He has such a rich mythology...... But he puts none of it in the movies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Very sad more lore less gore!
just plain bad script writing...
Matt Ellis the fans make up corny lore you don’t even know the full story rieldy was make up
@@jaketinsley1987 9
The engineers` wolves must have been the xenomorphs (the normal ones) and when david says that he found his wolf with his experiments,he must mean that he created his own kind of xenomorph based of what the engineers`version ,just as the novelisation says.
Mmm... but Scott said he changed things, and that people who thought the Engineers made the Xenomorph are wrong.
Klaudio Cerri Marti Cerri wouldn't it be great if they delved into their version of the wolf in the next film? I want more on the Engineers and I think there is so much potential there..
Well i`m going to stay with version as canon because it`s FUCKING BETTER THAN A STUPID-ASS ANDROID CREATING THEM.
The humans are the wolfs. We destroy, murder rape ect ect ect. Or did we forget the reaction when the engineer saw a human?(in Prometheus)
If Ridley is going to make Alien:Awakening than he should show in it some creatures the engineers` have created and many others not created by them some of which were even mighter than the engineers.The engineers would be in war with some of these species (like the predators) and allies with others in a war in which biologica l weapons were used. This could bring back the "ALIEN" feeling to the franchise,by, opening the door for other movies, opening so many mysteries about their origins,bringing the horror aspect by bringig new creatures in,them being linked to human history etc. But that`s just my opinion tell me if I`m wrong.
I still cant believe those people were engineers
I'm Livid I hope you are right man. I hope.
these were "monk" class. not the warriors or space explorers from prometheus.
They were. The engineers in Prometheus were genetically altered military class. The ones in covenant were like regular class civilians.
They were in the peasant caste
Whos Nick Are you guys talking about the same thing?
I had a theory that the engineers created the xenomorph and while on paradise David found the blueprints for the xenonorph and decided to make his own version of them
That's how it originally was, until Scott changed his mind at the last minute.
The murals of the xenos in Prometheus is more than enough evidence for people to realize that the engineers created the xenos. David just tweaked the dna. That's it that's all.
The Engineers created the Deacon, an ancestor to the Xenomorph. The guy who did the mural, Steve Messing, said so himself in Furious Gods: The Making of Prometheus. The Art and Making as well as Ridley's Master Class Featurette of Covenant state that Covenant is the first canonical appearance of the Alien in this universes history and is the origin story of the creature.
Daniel Cooper AvP is canon still though, as Prometheus, in the special features with one of the head writers, confirmed it is part of the alien mthology, thats also despite the fact, Fox is flexible with canon, if we ignored every movie movie that was contradicted by another, not a single alien movie would be canon. Lastly the guy making the next predator movie confirmed the last 5 movies with predators in them happen before his predator movie.
lancer737 The Original 4 Alien films as well as Prometheus and Covenant do not contradict one another and are all canon. AvP isn't canon and is more a what-if. I heard what the Predator guy said and maybe in the Predator universe it is canon but as far as Alien/Ridley is concerned it is not.
It's obvious to me that David knew that Engineers manifested a perfect or near perfect variation of the Primordial Xenomorph Ooze, and that was their wolf. They revered and feared their creation but also knew that it was a necessary evil. A creator must first destroy after all. With this in mind, David sought out to recreate this perfect variation of the Xenomorph, his take on the wolf which is what we are seeing unfold before us.
But the Eggs, Xeno, and most likely the Queen are not David's inventions - they are his adaptations of the concepts within the Engineer history. The take away from all this is that there is no ONE TRUE XENOMORPH, they are all Xenomorphs, as in it is ONE organism that can evolve into a potentially infinite forms following the same basic script each time (binding itself with host DNA, hijacking their reproductive system, to grow - See Spores, Sperm, Ovaries etc.).
Of these infinite possible forms, some are more perfect than others. David is striving to attain these perfect variations of the Primordial Xeno, and possibly the most perfect one at least.
This isn't a black and white situation, David did not create the Aliens, anymore than Weyland created the elements and metals that make up David. David is simply organizing, and engineering this chaotic and virulent organism. He's more of a guide than a creator. Given enough hosts and time, the Xenomorph Goo would inevitably reach perfect form on its own. David is merely expediting the situation.
I agree.. the engineers are the most fascinating part of the entire story to me. I want some engineer answers.. especially some backstory about their civil war. Very cool and interesting stuff.
Great video Nick! I loved the bigger universe potential that was lauded out in Prometheus and do hope we get more of that in the next film.
Like, I know exposition isn't a good thing in movie. But, I think having some in covenant would have been a better idea then Riddly Scott giving it months after the movie came out.
Just wait for the fan edit.
Awesome!! Enjoyed your coverage leading up to and after Covenant's release.
+Chris F Appreciate it!
While I preferred that the xenomorph's history remain shrouded in mystery, if they gotta have an origin story then I'd much rather it be the Engineers who were involved rather than an unhinged robot with a god-complex and daddy issues.
Jonathan Gunn Lmao, me too
Actually prefer the unhinged robot creating an equally illogical/something that shouldn't exist existence, but don't mind me... just being the weird one here I guess.
@Khorneflakes - To each their own. I won't deny that I may have some bias since I grew up with the comics and their handling of the xenomorphs' origins... Though to be fair, if they actually handled it right I think I'd be open to the idea of an unhinged artificial intelligence creating them. But there in lies the problem... I don't feel they handled it right. And I know I'm not the only one who thinks so. :P
Jonathan Gunn agree
Agreed, But they did say that it was originally that Ridley wanted the Engineers to be the creators first, I think he wanted to say David as in a simple form. I still think personally engineers created the Aliens in some sort of form, Honestly to me It doesn't matter who created the xeno, it just matters who started to attempt it first, in which seems like the engineers did.
I think the engineers created the xenomorph and the species has live on for a long time, but was slowly going extinct, and David tried to recreate the xeno from the egg left behind, so he could make the species come back in some sense.
lol true
Good video, one of the best covenant videos I've seen in a while 🤘🏻 enjoyed it bring longer as well
I dont think the Deacon alien was as rare as its said in the video: in Prometheus in the last scene we see the Deacon being born and can hear it screaming - and we can compare it to the scream that we hear in the beginning of the holographic recording of engineers trying to escape the compound, the recording that David activated in the tunnels.
Yes, commentary for both Promethus and Alien Covenant. I'm interested.
Great video. Hitting on several key points.
Actually, when David mentions the file that told of an "ancient ceremony" he said "such cruelty once thrived"......."long since frozen over"......."given passage to timidity"....."the cost of progress"
It sounds like he is referring to an ancient, cruel facehugger ceremony and *not* the sacrificial ceremony we saw at the beginning of Prometheus.
You've basically hit on all the ideas I had surrounding the engineers and their ideals. Ever since Prometheus I have always preferred and basically chose to believe the idea that the engineers, "discovered" the xenomorph organism, they DIT NOT create it. Then they simply replicated and synthethesized a bioweapon from the original genome of the xenomorphic organism.
Having the engineers DISCOVER the xenos keeps the xenomorph shrouded in mystery, because it still leaves the question of "where did it come from?" and "How" did it come about. And that NEVER needs to be answered, because once you start saying that David was the sole creator of the xenos, or even that the engineers were, you take away ALL mystery in the Alien uinverse then.
Also Ive always been saying that the idea is the xenomorphs themselves have been in existence long before the engineers, and I also see it as those giant statues of those "elders", they would have life spans of 150,000 years, not just 150 years. Sounds abit extra? Not really, because engineers live for such a long time period, because they are so well evolved, makes sense if you think that scientists say that people today are livining longer than they've ever lived due to better lifestyles and advances in technology.
Also the original writer John Sphaits said in his backstory that individual engineers live for thousands of years, and that they returned to the planets they had seeded every milenia. So it also makes the idea of those engineers on that planet welcoming home the ships they had sent out to seed, more plausible, and that many of them (if not all), are not descendants of the original engineers who sent those pilots off, but the same ones. Its kind of like thinking their life-spans are so immensly long compared to us, a year would be like a week or something to them. Maybe their whole body-clock is totally different, but maybe Im thinking abit too much there.
I just really hope Ridley sticks to delving into the mythology and the lore of the engineers now, because THE ENGINEERS ARE THE ONLY ANTAGONISTS THAT NEED TO BE EXPLORED IN THE ALIEN FRANCHISE. They are intruiging and there is potential for giving the most famous and Iconic engineer of them all the "Space Jockey"; a incredible moment when that eventual connection is explored. Ridley should just ignore all the negativity and stop focusing on trying to bring the usual Alien format to mainstream audiences in these prequel Alien movies!
I just truly hope and pray Alien: Awakening gets the go ahead from Fox, they'll get their profits if they simply allow Ridley to complete the story he set out to tell, without anymore hic-ups or last minuate changes.
Well Written ! I too agree THE ENGINEERS ARE THE ONLY ANTAGONIST THAT NEED TO BE EXPLORED.
Raiken Xion here here
Easy answer. The original script of the original film wasn't written by Ridley 'I have no idea what I'm doing' Scott.
Thanks Nick another great video with lots of interesting info!
this has me even more psyched up for Alien Awakening, I would love to
think that David carried on the engineers work and once they see what happened on
Planet 4 they take him down!
Absolutely spot on with the direction of the prequels and how it should focus on the lore especially about the engineers from Prometheus
I guess essentially deacons were probably considered one of the Engineers greatest creations because they took the time to create a mural about the creature.They must have realized that it can take traits from the host and be born into a monster. Maybe they created the human race and allowed it to grow so the Engineers could essentially have a large amount of bio weapons just ready to be unleashed by the black goo. David most likely found out their original plans with the human race and decided to mess around with it himself. Thus the Xenomorph is born from the Deacons and Neomorphs
I don't care who created the alien, I want to see more engineers, more david, and more answers, as well as alien awakening
I just want more action with more lore and throw in a Engineer , Xeno , Deacon , human , Android fight scene and I'll be set !
i want to see David's facehugger facehug an engineer. Imagine the xenomorph that comes out of an engineer!!
u should se Prometheus then , all cut scene from movie
seen all the extra scenes and seen the movie many times! same with covanent! now waiting for awakening
the mural in Prometheus looks almost Christ-like. I think it might be intended to show the xenomorph's origin as it emerges from the blackgoo, while at the same time symbolizing rebirth or resurrection. if the engineers had a planet with a bunch of weapons ships headed for other planets, it would seem to me that their intention was to revive the species. I've also heard theories that they may have worshipped or at least revered the xenomorph/goo. However, they must have been dominated by it at some point as depicted in the other mural. but, I'm probably wrong. The story can go in so many complex directions, thats why i love it.
Here's my theory:
-I think that the Xenomorph species was actually an extinct species that existed long ago. The Engineers found out about the species through fossils and tried to bring them back for study.
MrFedoraFilm would make a good script for a movie
I fully agree with your opinions, i think the next movie should go with the engineer ways of life. And make it that they have the og Alien. whatever happens the company knows all about the ship and xenomorph by alien 79. Thats why the company wanted it so bad. great video!
You know, in Prometheus there were all the bodies stacked up against the wall that Melbourne and Fifield came across. All their chests had erupted from the inside. So, some more unexplained evidence that other possible Xenomorph creatures had been around prior to Davids creation. This is a big part that no one ever mentions.
OK this is my theory , the most important aspect of these movies are the black goo , my theory is that there are different types of black goo that exist , think of it like this if you would say that the black goo is a weapon why would we think theres only one version of this weapon , we have weapons guns , bombs but there's different versions of guns and bombs , why can't there be more then one version of the black goo . Lets examine prometheus for a moment what exactly is the significance of the room that david opens where the crew first come across the vases of black goo that start oozing , ask yourself this if the juggernaut ship is a war ship meant to drop hundreds of vases of black goo on populated planets in the same fashion that david releases them on the engineers gathered in covenant then why is there a cargo bay full of the vases that shaw see's at the end of prometheus an then a private room that needs to be unlocked in which david opens where theres a small number of vases in comparison to the cargo bay that appears to be in a room that looks to be almost like a shrine or a temple its got the big engineer statue head and then the mural all over the walls . Could this room be a place where these select vases inside it are much different an have a greater significance then the vases in the cargo bay why were those vases in that room an not just in the cargo bay , why did they start oozing and the vases in the cargo bay don't . This is my theory , I believe that the vases in that room have a different effect then the black goo in in the cargo bay , my opinion is this look at the effect the black goo found in that room has on the host , we see the direct effect on fifeld where he falls face flat into the black goo he mutates into a moster like creature that attacks the prometheus crew , we also see halloway after drinking a droplet of black goo look like he is going into a state of mutation into another creature like it did with fifeld , also there a subtle scene where we see little tiny worms that are probably indigenous to the planet they crawl into the black goo oozing of of the vase later we see that the little harmless worms have mutated into that snake like creature that kills that doctor getting in his suit and going down his throat , though we never saw halloways full mutation we see that fifield and the worms have mutated into aggressive monsters . OK now lets examine Covenant , when David releases the cargo bay of black goo on the engineer population what happens , though in the movie that scene in my opinion is poorly shot what appears to take place is this , the engineers on the ground receive a massive quantity of black goo into there system this radically and with in seconds causes a super fast reaction which appears to me to be the proto aliens tearing out of there bodies the same way that the protaliens rip out of those two covenant crew members like the guy whose alien rips out his back an the other whose alien rips out his throat , This difference is shown by the bodies the engineers bodies are all long dead after the covenant crew arrives so how come there dead rotted bodies are there when in prometheus when you were exposed to the black goo you didnt die with your body layed out you mutated into something else , if the black goo was all the same then why would the engineers bodies still be there on the ground , the engineers exposed to the black goo from the cargo bay didnt mutate they just had the aliens rip out of them at an accelerated rate like the two covenant guys the acceleration has to do with how much black goo someone is exposed to , thats why the two covenant crew guys took awhile for there aliens to rip out because they were only exposed to a tiny ammount of the black goo where as the engineers were exposed to a massive amount at one time . So could the engineers in prometheus been experimenting on new black goo , a new bio weapon to test , remember idris elba says this a testing facility planet , think about it what would the engineers be doing out there an what would we they be testing , they were testing the black goo , working on it to improve it or change it , to me this explains that hologram where the engineers are running in there experiments the ooze must have infected either one or more of the engineers i believe the engineers were infected by the black goo that causes aliens to rip out because when the prometheus crew examines there dead bodies they notice tears in there body that looks like something ripped out , we also hear that strange noise when the hologram starts that is the same noise we hear the deacon alien make at the end of prometheus , to me thats what happend a deacon alien tore out of one or more engineers and thats why those engineers were running trying to get away from the aliens , my theory is that the last engineer that had his head decapitated by the door was infected and the alien tore out of him as he got the door , thats why he fell to his knees and collapsed . Also why do the engineers wear those suits and masks , the masks we see in the hologram there wearing , to me its because those must be like biohazard suits since there testing the black goo , in covenant we see the engineers not wearing what they have on in prometheus there wearing robes and garments , also in the very beginning of prometheus when we first see the engineers there also wearing robes . SO my final thoughts are that there are different black goos in prometheus and the black goo in covenant that david tests on is the goo thats in the cargo bay that causes the alien to tear out this would make sense to have david create the Xeno however the black goo the engineers had made already created Xenos but david has altered and perfected it where its xenos we know from the first movies with the eggs , facehuggers , and queen david creates this and in this video david says the engineers abandoned the wolf so if the wolf represents the alien maybe thats why the engineers in prometheus were on that planet testing the black goo they no longer wanted the aliens created they wanted to improve the goo to have it mutate the host like what it did to fifeld , hollaway , and the worms . Also whats to say that the black goo the engineer in the beginning of prometheus drinks to create life on earth isn't also different then the black goo's aboard the juggernot ship if you recall the engineer drinks the black goo and his body starts to break down and disintegrate , he doesn't mutate or have an alien rip out of him
Great Video! Why wasn't this in the movie?!
In Aliens when Ripley exposes Burke and the Companies plans for weaponizing the xenomorph he explains that the Alien could ensure that mankind stays on top in the Galaxy.. The prequel trilogy needs to expand on this..
EDIT: As well as explaining how the company particularly Ash in Alien knew so much about the Alien..
Pretty awesome episode about the Engineers !
It seems obvious that the mural in Prometheus was originally intended to depict the xenomorph lifecycle, but then Ridley changed the origin in Covenant, so the mural is now a problem. We can either reject that David is the creator and rest assured that the mural depicts a xenomorph, or we can assume that the mural depicts something else. I personally embrace David being the creator, so I like to think it depicts a neomorph and the vague horrors that the black goo can create.
The one thing I didn't understand in ALIEN: COVENANT is how did David's hair grow long since Prometheus, given the fact that he is an android?
Name of track playing in background?
I love all of this and will go completely insane if Fox doesn't greenlight a follow-up with more answers.
My $.02 is based off of the ADF novel as well as what we actually see in the movie. In the book, it is spelled out that David found their version of the xeno, referring to it as the pinnacle of the engineers' work. The movie also has a part where David is explaining to Oram what he was doing there. David says "Soon enough I began a bit of genetic experimentation of my own. Cross breeding, hybridizing, what have you." To me this seemed to imply he took the engineer's version of the xeno and hybridized it with the neomorphs that the black goo produced. This seemed evidenced in the movie by the drastically different chestburster; it came out fully formed like the neomorphs as well as having the neomorph's highly accelerated gestation and growth rate unlike what we've seen from the xenomorphs from the other movies.
I'm with you, Bud. The Xenomorphs and crap are fluff next to Engineer mythology.
Great vid bro
Awesome! Maybe the origin of the ultramorph.
In greek mythology the creator of humanity, prometheus was punished by Zeus and had an eagle torture Prometheus while he was chained to a mountain. This eagle was known as the aethon this could be the bird creature in the mural. This could be the engineer's wolf. I dub the creature in the mural the "Aethon"
Very deep theory you got there! I like it ! Aethon the Vex Time Gate Lord!
Vortex17 my personel thought about what the alien mural may represent is, 1 it for me has an odd resemblance to jesus on the cross not too sure about that one its open for expansion. but what i personally think it shows is the squid like alien at the end of prometheus giving birth to a xenomorph these squid like aliens having been the ones originally having created them. and in response to the wolf as we saw in the film when david released the cloud of black dust it moved in a way as it was alive and has been explained in the video the black goo worked as a biological kind of AI the black cloud being the dust version of the goo, but instead of turning the prometheans into whatever it fossilised them(first thing i thought of when i saw this scene was of the bodies in pompei) this cloud is their WOLF! and the rest of their creations i.e humans are the sheep.
The problem with your juggernaut welcoming theory may be that the juggernaut is a functionally a warship, not the life-seeding vessel we saw at the beginning of Prometheus.The engineer progeny seen in the Covenant cutaway no doubt had a a strong respect out of fear for the alabaster militarized engineers they were expecting.
I don't actually care what people think about this franchise... it's so fascinating!the history the world the constant use of metaphor and symbolism throughout covenant and Prometheus is extraordinary!
Honestly isnt it a big IF that we will get another movie in this Ridleyverse? Since he did not answer anything in covenant i honestly think the next installment will be ia failure at the BO and ignored by the audience that was hyped to see this
I know right. And why ruin both blade runner and alien by combining them.
Mike Ban There is no such thing is as Ridleyverse
TheNew TH-camr All his franchises are set within the same universe
David Ulanovsky Dude, no... People take easter eggs way too seriously.
Too many winks and nods referencing stuff that is only in the other franchise. Sure they're easter eggs, don't have to take them seriously. Personally I think its pretty cool if they are the same universe.
My interpretation of the wolf and sheep allegory is that the wolves were the military arm of the engineers that--after some civil strife within the engineer society, which had since ended due to a shift in their societal direction--had been virtually abandoned after the "sheep" engineers had embraced peace and had become self congratulatory in their creation of humanity. They essentially had a God complex in some ways and had risen above the previous conflicts.
On LV-223 there was debate within the ranks about the direction the "sheep" had taken and some wanted revenge. That revenge would come in the form of the destruction of the engineer's proudest succsss: mankind. Some on LV-223 did not agree with this idea and in order to foil that plan, one of the engineers released the pathogen, which infected the engineers and killed the majority of them. One of the leaders of this revenge plot, however was savvy enough to seal himself away from the pathogen so he would be able to exert his revenge at a later time.
I think you might be right about the wing inserts from Prometheus being their Wolfe.
Has anyone mentioned the fact that their “bio” suits look a helluva lot like parts of a Zeno morphs.
Look how the “suit” blends right in with muscle and skin all over the body all the way down to the ankles..
I think the Engineer's created the Original Xenomorph and David Created The Xenomorph queen creating his perfect organism
Theory: Scott, Lindelhof, the script writers of Covenant haven't got a damn clue.
For me, the Xenomorph's mystery and allure was heavily tied into the idea that it was the product of, and the result of, an ancient, dark, refined intelligence. Whether that be due to many billions of years of evolution, or engineered to be perfect over time by whoever created it to begin with. By having it be a product of a human androids experiment for a few years makes a mockery of the apex predator that Giger imagined for the first film. IMO Giger's biomechanical designs had a darkness to them that is diminished by Ridley's last minute decision to have David design them. The perfect synergy of time and biomechanics we attach to the Xenomorph needs a richer and fuller backstory for it to live up to it's initial realisation on screen.
Watching the movies together would be awesome!
This is a great video.
Nick, there's a gaping mistake I thought of which undermines the whole origin concept, I'd like to get your take on this.. If David was able to create the Xenomorph, why did he bother or need to create the eggs/facehuggers as well? And by the same token, if it WAS just the eggs/facehuggers he created, then how'd he know what the facehuggers would produce without any humans to test them on prior to Oram ? Or do you think he had no idea what would burst out of Oram? It's implied he already was familiar with the speed of the gestation period by how he wakes Oram up.
Great video
Wait. I must've missed something, last I heard, Awakening was supposed to be a prequel to Covenant. I'm presuming that, if the Engineers are going to be pissed about David's attack, it's now going to be a sequel. When did this come about?
Last I heard they're now doing a novel to fill in as a direct sequel to Prometheus/prequel for Covenant... But who can honestly say at this point? The man can't even seem to make up his mind about what direction to take this franchise in. Since the flop that was Covenant (Figuratively speaking, I know the movie basically broke even if not made a SMALL profit), there's a lot of uncertainty as to whether we'll even get another ALIEN movie from Ridley Scott.
If David is referring to the Xenomorph when he says "wolf" then why would he need to create the eggs/facehuggers as well? Surely he's referring to egg/facehugger, rather than the Xenomorph??
Makes me wonder if the Engineer's "Wolf" is us (Humans)...and what David ment by the Engineers trying to "banish the wolf", would be about the Engineer in Prometheus wanting to "cleans" Earth with the black goo.
Nick, can you do a video about the black goo and why it was created. I'm sure that the Engineers had to have had a lab or something like that. The environment and the way it was handled must have been difficult, since just a tiny amount can cause mutation. I wonder if they had a mass production line of some sort to bottle the black goo up in the glass containers inside the ampoules. They prduced so much of this stuff as shown in the head room and on the ship David emptied his payload on. Thanks Nick! I love Hybrid Network
Engineer vids always interesting!!
What I think is the case is that the Xenomorph is actually the Engineers' creation. Upon seeing the hostility of those creatures, the engineers subdued them, temporarily making the species extinct. David, when arriving to paradise and "wiping it clean", would find data on the Xenomorph and try to recreate it. After many years, he succeds, albeit making a slightly less advanced version of it.
Basically no one knew what the fuck they wanted to do with this movie. Just fill in the gaps afterwards.
Nick W??? I thought your name was Nick Here!
This video gives me hope that David is not the progenitor of the xeno like Covenant implied, and that the prequels will get back on track and bring the Engineers back because I agree that is more interesting than a xeno just running around killing people in showers and whatnot.
this video gives me hope for the franchise!
one thing that has always bugged me was that the crew of the Nostromo didn't really seem excited to be seeing new species never before seen when they found the "space Jocky" The same goes with the crew of the prometheus.
What you mean , Shaw and Holloway were super excited about their discovery(s) however the crew of the Nostromo was a bit lackluster upon discovery. Did you want them to react like the Biologist in Prometheus getting his arm broken by the Hammerpede because he called it beautiful and tried to pet it ?
I never thought that was a xenomorph mural in Prometheus but more so for a decon. Especially after seeing the end of Prometheus, and never truly seeing the life cycle of one.
There's should have been much more focus (as you have just described) on the engineers background in the film. It's really relevant and interesting. Hope this will be the path for the coming film.
I think why the Engineers were hostile towards David and the Humans was because they were created through 'washing away' their own sins. So basically their own sins taken shape.
Just my opinion:
Ridley Scott is doing an amazing job. Period. If everything was answered in this movie, there would be no need for another film. I like where its heading. People are just too impatient and expect too much these days. And for that, it could be ruined.
what does David mean by the wolf and the lamb?
Heyo
What you see as a bird kneeling before the engineer, I see as a literal lamb, bending it's head. I think it's pretty clear that the lamb david mentions refers to the engineers and black goo giving life (seeding planets), but also them using the black ooze to create monsters/weapons/aliens to balance or control whatever life proves troublesome or for potential war and being 'awesome' and what not.. which would be what the wolf part refers to.
Can the space jockey be an engineer suit with a different being inside of it?
Great video👍
Again, WHY WASN'T THIS INFORMATION RELAYED TO US IN THE FREAKIN' FILM?!
It could be possible that the Engineers created the Xenos, or some sort of alien. Because in Prometheus, the crew saw the holograms of the engineers running away from something. It was never really clear what they were running away from, Could be their own wolf that they created, or so what. All interesting stuff, can't wait till everything is revealed in awakening.
I personally think that the human ovum is the key here. That (as it is implied) David takes human ovum and related organs to make the alien egg/ovomorph and queen. The goo + ovum outside of the human body can result in an egg that hatches a facehugger. But the goo + ovum still inside the body (Like Shaw's impregnation in Prometheus) results in a trilobite, due to the facehugger embryo being fed by the human body.
Which ignores Shaw being infertile.
I really wished they put an ultimate cut for the blueray, putting back the deleted scenes and this one in logical ways. This film really needed saving as the rushed ending killed it for me, it completely lacked depth.
Absolutely! Let's move on to to the engineers. They are the story now!
Theory: They were both being depicted in the mural. It's a warning about the "Wolf", the ultimate programming of the radical AI. David found his wolf based his understanding of them, but needed a fertile woman to become the progenitor, the Queen. He wants to make his own forms of life. To create his own self sustaing life cycle and variety of beast. To leash his own creations upon the old Space Jockey.
Here's a theory: The Xenomorph IS a timeless ancient species after all and backwards of common misconception, the Engineers engineered the black goo out of studying and extracting the Xenomorph's life cycle and parasitic traits instead of the other way around. Then, you could explain the seeding of life as more or less experiments to test how their creation of the black goo out of Xenomorph parasitism would turn out based on their progress of their black goo. At least that would be more interesting to me than David having created the Xenomorph and the Engineers having ironically little to do with the Alien even though they're now a staple of the Alien franchise.
What is a better host for the Xenomorph , a human or engineer ? Can a Xeno even break through the skin/suit of a Engineer? I also remember MR. H saying humans were more compatible with the Xeno than Engineer but how if we have the same DNA?
Well judging by the lack of comment thread on the topic I suspect you're correct and no one has an answer , however I appreciate you taking a stab at it. Not looking for definitive proof just intelligent theories and ideas!
The Deacon became part of the ship. It evolved so large it amassed itself and evolved to the ship itself.
There is no way to fit the technological and basic human advancements from 'Prometheus' and 'Covenant' into 'Alien'. It can't be done without a huge drop backwards for a space faring humanity. I can't consider these two movies as part of the cannon universe. Too many things don't make any sense. Walter acts too much like Bishop when he act more like Ash, he certainly shouldn't have any programing that puts human life as a priority. Colonists don't exist in Ripley's day either, you can't back date this, she's honestly surprised by this in 'Aliens' they have to even explain to her what terraforming is a little. On top of that the technology goes from stuff we don't even have to tech you'd easily see in the 80's. That's like us all going back to using nothing but rotary phones next year.
Face it, they're pretty movies but they fucked up here. You can't piece these into the timeline any more than you can fit AVP into it. It doesn't work. Watch them in order for yourself, it's ridiculous.
murals show a deacon, standing like a crucifix and then the deacons hands holding the opened egg, other mural is a engineer turning into a deacon, engineers created deacons , david created xenomorphs, deacons are probably more lethal than xenomorphs because they can become very large like xenomorph queens since when they are born they are so large already
I love it how the Aliens grow full size in 3 minutes. They all grow so fast :*) [I hate it actually]
I want to know more about the engineers and if Shaw got to speak to them
what I understand from the video spoken about is that the engineers created the xenomorph, the perfect organism, but then they couldn't control it, so they tried to undo it. "undo their wolf" so they stored all the goo and probably sent it somewhere else to be kept safe only to be used as bioweapon when necessary, like eradicating human life. Now David discovered the goo and it's potential and is in the process of reverse engineering it back to the perfect organism it was develped from. at least that's my theory
The Predator species needs to be added into the mix. Engineers because of their physical strength and advanced technology would make them a good hunt for the Predator. To stop there race from being raided and killed by Predators, the Engineers created the xenomorph to keep them occupied, in a pact for peace.
Brendan Bernard aliens and predator should be separate
Brendan Bernard no
no
Brendan Bernard well at one point in time the predator got in a conflict with the engineers in the comics which could highly be likely and since predator 2018 coming out it will make AVP canon
I think there is a higher race of engineers that made the engineers we see in the 1st prometheus. I also think the xenomorths (or a different version of them) were created 1000s of years ago with the black goo but the xenomorths got out of control ergo why the engineers tried to destroy the original race of xenomorths. David stumbles on the black goo and makes the newer evolved xenomorths. I also think the engineers crated the predators as soldiers to eradicate the first race of xenomorths therefore linking predator alien and prom. In the alien universe.
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So, is Paradise the Engineers home planet or just a settlement ? And why do they look so different from the ones we've seen in Prometheus ? I heard someone said that it was because they didn't have the budget to do all of them look like the ones from Prometheus ( with all the makeup and CGI ) so they decided to change their look
Its def a possibility because those silicone polyurethane armor suits look really expensive. You remember the interlude scene in Prometheus? Where the Engineer drinks the pathogen goo? None of those Engineers had on their Space Armor and maybe the Engineers on Paradise refuse to lift weights and skip leg day everyday lol.
jaketinsley1987 the last part got me laughing 😂
y dont they ever answer questions in their movies 😢😥
I think the bird-like creatures on the mural was some of Geiger's early drawings for Alien 3 that were not used, in the movie l seen it on a making of video
the image of David holding the petri dish full of Black Gold appears to be taking place on Mars with the three volcanoes
I don’t believe that David created the Xenomorph, I think he recreated it. Everything spawned from the black goo. To me, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Xenomorphs were at the start of all this and somehow created the engineers. There’s so many variables though. It’s so hard to tell, but very interesting to think about. Hopefully we get better answers in future films. Also, I’m interested in who created the Yautja. Seeing as predators kind of tie into this as well.
There is 1 Alien Movie; it's called "Alien"!
More sense might have been seen in the film series if Ridders had been able to make the sequel to Prometheus he had intended, before some idiots gave bad reviews to it.
The wolfs are human's. Isn't that clear? Humans were rejected, explaining the engineer reaction in Prometheus.
+Sword of damocles Possibly, I lean more towards it being the goo or even the xeno
that's what I think too
The engineers worshipped the xeno and tried to re-create it with the black goo, the liquid the engineer drinks at the beginning of Prometheus isn't black goo, it's something else that was harvested from the xeno, hence their trying to recreate it so they could seed worlds