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Lithium-Ion (18650 cells) versus Lipo -- which is best?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 มิ.ย. 2019
- If you fly an RC plane or drone you have typically used a lithium polymer (lipo) battery but there is an alternative -- the lithium ion cell, typically in the 18650 form-factor. What is the difference? When would you use Li-ion in preference to Lipo and vice-versa.
I will shortly post some practical "field test" videos showing how great (or small) the differences are.
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218 grams for people in Murica it's equivalent for about 3 yards :D Nice burn
Burn baby burn! XD
Metric system FTW!
If a kilometre is 5 eighths of a mile then surely 218 grams is 136.25 inches or 3.78 yards.
LOL. I have a general idea how much a pound is since it's a more regularly used unit, but when other RC folks start talking about their model that weighs 2 ounces I have no intuition for how much that is. Metric for this american please. LOL
that was GOLD XD
I loved it... really loved it
"SwellPro," probably not the best name someone came up with for a LiPo brand-name...lol.
That rivals "Nova" as a car name, being sold in Mexico.
They do SWELL big time lol
Bruce you are king of reviewers! You make the hobby fun and informative! Jumper t16 and nirvana transmitter moved the 18650 now I see why! Thanks mate!
These LG HG2 batteries are quite good. I used them recently and my flight duration is doubled compared to same weight LIPO. And I bench tested the discharge current also. These batteries hold the voltage even if running up to 10A for about 20-30 seconds, which is good for take off. And if you cruise at 4-5Amps, the batteries will be very happy to run for a very long duration. I hope very soon we should be getting professionally built Li-ion packs. DIY is a fun too!
Hats off for the video.
Hello, I have an inexpensive crawler that came with a 8.4v nimh pack. Family, bought an Admiral 7.4v 3500mah pack and Skyrc 6B balance charger. My crawler has two 370 motors on axles. New Apex 20kg steering servo and Quicrun 1060 esc with motors in parallel. With Nimh pack and my mods, run time dropped from 8 minutes to 4 minutes. I can setup esc for lipo with jumper.
What do you think it's run time will be with the Li-on pack? I have to wait till Christmas to use the new battery etc. I chose the small format battery for space limitation. The Henglong tank guys like the Admiral battery and their drivetrain uses two motors.
So, maybe 40 minutes running now?
Hi Bruce,
Something I have also been testing recently. My application is long range quadcopters.
Amp draw is very low, 10-15A. I use Sony VTC6 30A 3120 cells.
I did some back to back testing with an only 5200 multistar vs a 4s2p ‘6240’mah pack. Running down to 80% discharge.
I found the most interesting and very important fact is that although the liion has more capacity per gram, as they run to a lower voltage, their mid voltage is much lower than a lipo, there for I found the nearly identical weight packs, that more amps were used from the liion to keep the craft in there air.
I was getting 20+ min flight times from both, however significantly more cumulative distance with the lower capacity lipo.
I have found that the liion gets hot in flight, and their capacity drops with say 10A vs the lipo that will delivery their 80% discharge with much higher volts at the end.
I also tried a 6s1p 3120 liion. Vs a newer turnigy 5200 4s vs the multistar 4s 5200This is where the test results changed a lot as realised the multistar was very tired, max cumulatively was 20km to a 80% in 22 mins(but voltage dropped off) The turnigy was doing 20km in 18 mins to 80% & still lots of volts.
The 6s max cumulatively was 16km to a complete discharge where it drops!
From now I’m only using lipos & the liion remains fantastic field charging batts
This is actually a huge positive finding 😮
love the grams to yards conversion!!!
We have 4S 8800mA Li-Po packs and 4S 15000mA Li-Ion Packs. They weigh very close to one another.
In our survey fixed wing, (when the Li-Po's were still good) they gave us around 35min with the whole setup running. With the Li-Ions, we get around 55min-1hr flight time.
The only issue is because our model is heavy, on warm days with no wind, the Li-Ions tend to not give enough power for thrust for take-offs. We also use a catapult system to get it in the air, as it's a pusher and got a big prop.
Hope you are posting a battery build video 👍
the craft king #1 agreed. With a description on how to wire balance cables
really good site i used as a guide blog.seidel-philipp.de/diy-build-a-longrange-lithium-ion-battery/
I second this!
Li-Ion tend to be used in low-impact environments, as the electrolyte is more liquid than gel (and also why the stronger casing). Lithium is highly reactive (read combustable) and a case breach is likely catastrophic to a model.
Should be great for a cruise wing type model as the discharge rating is usually not as high as Li-Po, but for a raw power machine (like a quad or a heli), Li-ion would not be ideal.
Interested to see how this turns out.
The lithium in li-ion cells (and lipos, which are also li-ion cells and the same thing just in a different form factor) is irrelevant for fires. There's so little of it in the cells and it's not in metallic form either. All the battery fires are the electrolyte burning after being heated up by a shortcircuit.
A couple years back I built a camera quad that I used 18650 cells in. It was purely as an experiment to see if it would work. I built it to only sip power, but worked out that at full throttle it might be a little too close to the amp limit for my liking with 3S2P (Like Li-Po's, The easier a time you give them, The more cycles you get before they're scrap), So went with 3S3P instaid. As I also vape, and already have a few 4 cell Li-Ion chargers on hand, I decided not to solder up a bloody great pack, But got some battery holders instead.
I'd built the quad to take 4S so I used three 4 cell holders and wired each to hold either 4 cells in series, Or 3 cells and a dummy "Pass through" cell.
It flew pretty well on 3S so I never actually got around to trying it on 4s in the end.
Flight times were......... Longer than I could concentrate on flying in one stretch ! But I estimated it would be somewhere around 25 minutes if I wasn't pushing it too hard.
In the end, for convenience I converting it to run with the stack of 5000 3s Li-Po packs I bought for a larger folding Y6 I built as its replacment, Then not long after that, as it was now surplus to requirements a friend bought it off me.
As an experiment it was pretty good, But at around £60 for the 9 cells it was cheaper to just use budget Li-Po's as it didn't need a high C pack.
New Li ions like this LG HG2 are very good, and can give a good discharge rate. These batteries with 2p configuration can give lift off easily
equivalent to 3 yards, Brilliant Bruce (hit those no metric "fools" hard).. I used to fly on A123 cells, they packed a punch (when lipos only had 2C change capability, they were amazing fast charge)
Really excited to see how your testing turns out.
Very interested in your battery making videos it would be awesome to see you make some more!
Omg 😂 equivalent of 3 yards!!! 🤣🤣🤣
You made my day!
I've been using the Sony VTC6's (4s2p) in my 7" long range quad with great results, they will deliver 60A+ if you need it but I mostly cruise around at about 10-15A for 20+min flights. Be careful where you get then though, plenty of dodgy sellers out there..
FWIW Sony batteries have burned up more laptops than all other makes combined.
VTC-6 cells are IMR, not ICR. No fire hazard unless they get physically damaged, as their resistance increases with heat.
Forget about Sony.Chinese brand Liitokala has 40 amps discharge for 21700 ,4000 mah cells.The best brand of cells in the world for high discharge.
Good for long duration flying for sure not for general RC flying use and can't be charged as fast.
Lifepo4 a123 cells used to be good for fast charging and high drain but heavy for same capacity.
Lipo is unfortunately still the best option generally but I can't wait to see the back of them for safely reasons.
Most of the 18650's you can charge with 1C.
@@ZeroFPV yes, while a123 lifepo4 cells and newer lipos can be charged at 3 to 5c or even higher. 8 min charges are fantastic but somewhat scarey lol.
@@FlyingFun.
Oh, wow. :-) I'm more the 10 packs in parallel @1C charging type. I want to keep them healthy as long as possible.
@@ZeroFPV yeah, I'm somewhere in between, 2c charge regularly, reason is British weather creates short windows for flying and getting charged up fast before it changes is needed, I don't store charged....
I have multiple chargers and charge individual packs , so in 25 minutes I go from storage to full charge , hppefuly before the rain starts again lol..
The biggest advantage of the LiPo batteries is that they can be cycled a lot more times than Li Ion batteries...
Been using 18650 and 21700/20700 batteries on quads for the last 12 months and will never go back to foil cells. The Sanyo UR18650 range (now owned by Panasonic) are a good cell that I mainly use and can output 30A constant and cost just £2.50 each!
Any decent experience with the 21700/20700 batteries? Their power density is so low...
After lots of pondering I went for the Sony VTC-6, it's overly expensive in comparison but that all good for a 3S1P. Their low internal resistance makes them stand out.
i'm in the process of building David Windestal's long range tricopter, which people claim can get a 40 minute flight off a 5200 3s, and up to an hour if you stack two batteries together. i'm really curious to try on this a 3s 6 battery 18650 to see what crazy flight times are possible
I'm getting up to 14 minutes with a 4s 3000mAh and 5" (2205, 2300KV) so I'd say it's possible with bigger prop and lower KV. th-cam.com/video/Mx6imo8B5iA/w-d-xo.html
So I have to say I'm using 18650s in my vape every day and my Fpv Glider got a 6000mah pack made from LG Hg2 in 3s2p config.
It's really great for lower current applications that need long runtimes
sir, if you dont show yourself and just speak, everyone will assume you are a young lad, very energetic.
Not everyone! Us old guys know him.
So happy to see a direct comparison. I love you Bruce! Will be jumping on that Patreon as soon as I can!
Great information. Thanks for the breakdown. I totally forgot about "Lipo" batteries. A great way to go for an endurance FPV plane.
amazing overview, fun to watch. love the application story of rc flight plane
Excellent video. In one short I got all my answers. Thanks a lot.
what is the distance it can fly on lipo baterries
Are there any chemical constraints for lithium-ion unable to provide the same or better current discharge as lipo? (on similar weights proportion to the ones demonstrated)
There is a wide range of chemicals and electrodes for different applications. Basically you trade either cycle life or high discharge rates.
Eg the Rimac new 2C supercar has 120C discharge capacity 18650 cells.
Tesla uses a NMC composition for its storage batteries and NCA very low cobalt percentage for its automotive batteries. The cycle life is increasing, doubling every few years with latest estimates giving a million miles of use in their next generation Maxwell electrode packs, whilst dropping cost to $100kWh at the pack level.
th-cam.com/video/VtoBkFF3X7E/w-d-xo.html
The often used distinction between Li-ion and Li-polymer has nothing to do with chemistry (it is used wrongly). They are *all* Li-ion batteries. The two battery types are the same thing, just in different form factors. That form factor (and therefore different internal construction) is the main reason for the different current capabilities. There are cylindrical cells available that can easily provide currents in the tens of amp like a pouch cell, because their internal construction is designed for that. The pouch cells, that so many erroneously call li-polymer, are just "li-ion polymer" cells, because they are wrapped in a plastic (=polymer) package as opposed to being in a metal can.
They can have different chemistry, but so can cylindrical cells between them and pouch cells between them. Again, the form factor is not what dictates the chemistry, what the manufacturer puts in them is. You can have the same chemistry in either form factor. Have you ever seen something like IMR, INR, ICR, IFR, LMO, NMC, NCA, NCO, LCO or LFP written on cylindrical cells or in their datasheet? Those signify different chemistries. Pouch cells use the same, although they mostly use the Lithium-cobalt-oxide chemistry (ICR/LCO).
superdau That makes sense. Saw those labeling in 18650 cells. Thanks for the awesome explanation!!
Totally looking forward to a comprehensive comparison.. Thanks!!
You'd want a low dropout BEC using li-ion 2S, but if the label current rating on those cells is anywhere close accurate, those look like the way to go for an endurance model. I was looking at a 2S pack and 10A motor controller for a sub-250g model.
I am afraid that this 20A figure would be a bit optimistic.
Is it really sustained current at which the battery is able to deliver all it's juice?
It would probably reduce capacity by 30-40% or something.
But if you are able to cruise at 7A per battery, it might be much better.
As fellow kiwi it is weird to hear a kiwi accent on one of these videos keep it up mate you're doing awesome!
The low voltage cutoff of most ESC's gives problems with using 18650 cells, most of my HK esc i can't disable it, so started using bl heli esc's for fpv planes with mixed results.
Is the cutoff too high or too low?
too high, since the esc's cutoff at 3.2v which is normal for lipo's but way too high for li-ion cells since then you can't use 30% of the capacity. My nano talon flies 60-70 mins with a 4s 18650 pack.
Samsung 20700 come in at 69g: 3000mah, 30amp continuous! 🤯 Really tempted to do a 2s, low kv, Mini long range Tricopter in future. 😆 Small body, long arms, low kv, big props, sounds like a long range dream. 😁
Chinese brand Liitokala is better than Samsung.They have 4000 mah with 40 amps continuous 21700 for same weight.
What about the charge, discharge cycles between the two types? I think li-ion can endure many more cycles.
I believe EACH of the 18650 cells you have is 3000 mAh so you were not comparing the same thing by saying that the lipo has 2200 mAh and the THREE Li-ion cells together "are about the same (mAh)". So the 150g for the 3 Li-ions represent 9000mAh and the 218g represents 2200mAh for the Lipo.
Nope, you're wrong. Each battery has 3000maH, in series the 3 batteries will still be 3000maH, but you have 3 times the voltage.
@@martinrowley1042 Correct...
I purchased a whole slew of Westinghouse 18650 cells from Wallmart a couple of years ago for $1 each. They are rated at 2,000 mAh with no C rating. They work fine in my Mini Talon as a 3p4s pack. Better yet are the 26650 LiitoKala Li ion batteries, rated at 3500 mAh with a C rating of 20 Amps. I paid $4/each and found their capacity to be 4000 mAh. I have a spot welder, but found that soldering them into packs does not hurt the battery and is much safer in a crash because spot welds have a tendency to come loose in a crash and might start a fire.
if we are making a pack out of 18650s
then how to calculate the output c rating
Rewatch the video... (1p=rating 2p=2x^^
I have been wondering about running them in parallel config, so looking forward to your next video.
Can't wait to see the results Bruce, this looks interesting.
I like where this is going. Staying tuned for more. Thanks.
Would it be possible to mix the batteries in the pack with an additional control circuit. i.e when running at low current draw use the li-ion, but when current draw is high switch to lipo for a burst?
Fantastic video. You really know your stuff.
Very interesting. Im excited to see you compare the two
Ur explanation is so good I understand it now 😂
Thx for sharing! 2 questions : in your experience: whats a save margin to fly with for lipo and lions ?
atm i stop my lipos at 3.6 but at home they have 3.8…so i guess 3.4 under load would be okay ? or even less ?
Thanks in advance
Hello. I’m trying to decide what type of battery pack would provide the longest life at the smallest size between 2 to 6 continuous amps. Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Had a play a while ago with 18650 and a 4inch. Went ok.. couldnt really punch it. 5 inch... no chance. But 3 inch is looking like a sweet spot for a high capacity li ion 4 - 6s packs. I'll be doing this soon. Waiting on bits. :)
Forgot to add.. for the 3 inch im keen on using cr123 size li ion.
Nice topic! I'm very interested to watch your prep and tests.
Sir, I think you converted that wrongly: 218g is 3 yards and one see-saw. :b
One question: which one is safer? I'm getting batteries for an Yamaha WX5 and I don't want my controller to catch on fire. The WX5 is a wind Midi controller manufactured from 1999 to 2017 and discontinued - no new ones available - and it requires 1.5V cells. I found both li-po and li-ion 1.5V cells but the li-po ones are easier to find here in Brazil. I also would like to know if I can keep them inside the instrument while not using it or if I should remove them.
Thanks for your patience! Nice video!
Great information. This could be fun to experiment with. Thanks for making the video!
Interesting video on these two battery types. Thanks for sharing.
Great overview - thanks! Any update on using this in a long range quad?
How can you determine the Mah of a battery (li-ion) if there are no markings on the cell if possible?
hello,which batteries do you think would be better in jump starters for auto's?
Where did you get them..? So many fake ones out there it is difficult to know what one is actually buying until after they arrive.
Vappe stores.
Read What I Wrote! Your Welcome
@@zakofrx ....FAKE
Brucie baby! do us all a favor and include not only flight time, but also flight distance in your test. Perhaps the lipo
will give you greater distance with less flight time because of the ability to run wide open throttle, where as the other will give you longer flight times at low throttle
Probably didn't have a flight controller on it.
I am confused you have 3x 3000mAh batteries shouldn't you be referring to them as 9000mAh or are you connecting them in parallel to achieve 60A?
So which is better for photography flashes, Li-ion or LiPo?
You did a Swell job explaining that, but there is no way i'd buy a SWELL battery.
@4:37 - You need to be consistent. Each 18650 is rated for 20Amp Continuous. Wiring them to maintain the 3000mAh you are referencing means a 60Amp CDR and a 90Amp Pulse (30Amp @
I believe he's comparing cell for cell and the rating is a total in series. Why would he make a comparison of a set of batteries in series to one in parallel?
@rcmodelreviews Bruce, you might want to update this video or add a appropriate annotation or comment on top of it: The power (Wh) to weight ratio is not that different as you suggest. Your quick initial weight and power mental calculation is off (due to real voltage under load. You better do proper weight to charge capacity (Wh) calculations, voltage is not a good measure). The difference (with good LiPos) is at most 20%. Given that 18650 are harder to make as a pack, where as Lipo is already done for you, I would say it's not worth it.
Remember, the only real comparation is on the energy density (energy stored/mass). All other measures, weight, voltage, as you did are just misleading and kind of intuitive (in the wrong way) for most of us: lighter weight -> longer flight times. Which is wrong. (Yes, I ignore the max current output, assume it's enough for what you want to fly). The only real measure is how much energy can be delivered over time for the same mass. Hence, in real life, LiIon - LiPo the difference is max 20% (for LiIon cells that are usable for our hobbies: can deliver let's say at least 5C discharge).
Here is a quick reference already calculated: i.stack.imgur.com/Z9Flb.jpg
Castravete Murat the major advantage is in form factor - pouch vs cylindrical cells.
Cylindrical cells allow for much greater density due to increased internal surface area - kind of like how capacitors work.
Now obviously it’s going to depend on your application, and for most RC pouch lipos will likely continue to be superior to cylindrical liions but there are a lot of applications where the liions have a pretty significant advantage (and 20% is huge).
please do more detailed measurements on lipo vs li ion.
I'm currently studying these batteries myself. I have about 25-30 Eneloop AAA's and AA batteries, they are the best. I've had those rechargeable bats for 7years and only 1 shorted cell. Bought all other types, Duracell and powerex batteries and Duracell beats the powerex. I have 1 powerex left out of about 8 AA. Weight is a factor but I've found the heavier they are is better but they short out early also.
I use exactly the same Li-Ion batteries for my foam 950gr. plane .In fact yesterday I just made one 4s pack.They work great and if you made 3s2p the current draw will be 40a and 6000 mah capacity.
did u use an bms on your li-ion?
@@ryu-yuta9259 No. I charged it with balance charger so bms is not required
A website I would recommend is Nkon, I paid 180€ for 50 cells, Sanyos are really good. They are 30A 3Ah cells. Now I'm waiting on my spot welder to make my own batteries
They sell hg2 with solder plates for 3.90€ atm
Yep that website is great. I replaced my 2012 vintage ICRs in my e-bike with brand spanking new 3.6 AH IMR-18650s. Only 160 euros from Nkon and my bike rides like new.
Isn't the 3s pack 2600mah per cell? Not the whole pack? One of those cells are still 2600mah aren't they? The whole point of lipo was largely due to its lighter weight for RC
How are the Samsung batteries? I can't seem to find the LG's in stock anywhere that seem to be real LG batteries and not the knock off. I'm in the US. I don't know about other countries, but the Sony battery that you mentioned in one of your videos I have found.Lg is not in stock.I'm very interested in making some of these packs.
What if you use 21700 cells instead of 18650?
Single motor rc air craft are fantastic for lion batteries with very long endurance flights in mind even just some fun lesure flying. There are other electronics you could throw in like a bost circuit if you must keep the volts around 11.1v (obviously weight comes into it again) or just use a extra cell since most of its life is below the voltage required.
it would be nice if you could make a video to show us how to make a 4s - 6000mah battery , thanks bruce
blog.seidel-philipp.de/diy-build-a-longrange-lithium-ion-battery/
Good day are those Li-io batteries rechargeable?
It's 3amph for one li-ion or all 3 combined?
Hi nice video. I am building a surveillance drone so endurance is very important (flight time) but the 4 motors needs to lift 2.4kg so do you thing it is too much for li-ion batteries? Thank you
lipo nomial 3.8 volts ??
Factor in that batts get lighter as they drain.
Plus the well known fact that a cap on the esc actually gives you more power. Must be true, as RC car guys used to claim they could notice the added power after adding a cap . :-)
Capacitors Smooth The Drain Sags... ;~)P
Be interesting to know what the capacity is at constant 20A discharge
And the cycle life to 80% capacity!
That is nice thing. These big name brands have actual accurate data sheets with all these specs available online. google it :D
Love this! Battery build video plz.
what was the charge time diferance?
Brownies (LG HG2) are great but pinkies(Samsung 30Q) is a little better. IMR is who I buy from. Mooch does excellent testing of these batteries.
li-ion has a nasty reputation of catching on fire if they get bumped, scratched or damp. Are li-polymer as dangerous?
Will you be soldering the cells together or do you have a spot welder?
You could solder 18650 battery together but you need special flux, for stainless steel soldering and high watt soldering iron. Otherwise your solder tin won't stick to the battery
Bruce, whats you views on using Li-Ion vs Lipos in transmitters? The new Transmitters (Jumper & Taranis 9d 2019) recommend Li-Ion or Lipo but not LiFe. I've always preferred using LiFe or Ni-MH in my TXs as I keep them in the house as opposed to my Lipos which are in a big metal box in the garage. In a TX, both will be drawing a lot less current so 'should' be safer but I think the Li-Ion has a more graceful dropoff.
Thanks PaulG
wiring the pack is the tough part, can be soldered but spot welding is far better way to go, see vids on electric bike pack building
I am looking for a good and comprehensive kit for battery connectors and wiring. I have been looking at building a comprehensive kit but was hoping to find one mostly if not all the way put together. If you do not know of one, do you have a list for putting a kit together or maybe you might think about doing a video on the topic? Thanks.
Hi Bruce, just wondering if cell phone batteries can be used for light weight models?
Hi Sr, nice video, thanks for the tips. I have a question, which model are you using to get those 20 min flight ? and what motor/battery/esc do you use? Thanks in advance!!
Can I charge my Lithium-Ion 18650 2 cell set up with my Lithium Polymer 2 cell battery charger?
Perfect timing! I have a VTOL and have seen that Foxtech has a battery swap board. Use a small Iipo for vertical take off and landing and switch to li ion for forward flight. Only problem is unless I want to spend a ton of money I'll have to build the 6S 12000mah battery. Show us the battery build!
I just saw this and can't find the follow-up video you were mentioning at the end. Did you post a video showing a comparison of how the battery techs/types performed?
will 2 sony or lg or samsung 18650's FIT into where a standard 3.7 1300mah lipo pack fits on say a 4x4 truck / buggy or ???
good points. Go the 3s2p Li-ion 18650's for long distance/high power and throw the LiPo away imo. 18650's are so much cheaper to get hold of and to salvage from old laptop batteries and cordless drill packs etc...
I use a 4s2p lithium ion pack on a bix3 and I don't even know how long it'll last because it last longer than I do. I think that's the best application for it. Long range fpv cruising.
dumb question but can you use these cells with any esc that is meant for a Normal Lipo pack as Long as to use the correct voltage.?
Do you think a 4 cell lithium ion could deliver comparable power to a 3 cell lipo?
You got something confused there I think. One of the three Liion Cells has got 3000mAh, so 9000 combined. And you sure that this big of a LiPo battery only got 2600mAh?
yes making endurance packs with 18650's is extremely popular. I used Sony cells in a 3s2p for 60000 mah only slightly heavier than my cnhl 3s 2200. Ive gone half an hour on my AR Wing and land from boredom usually . Spent like $25 in supplies
I had not thought about those battery’s
Cycle time difference ?
Lion works efficiently for RC planes with higher cell counts and geared BL motor with big prop.
Or a glider with a 20amp Esc
I know its been 5 years since your post this educational video but @ 2.04 , thats funny 😂😂....218grams=3 yards
Bruce can we reset the LV cutoff to actually get most of the juice from lion cells ?