@@pouncerminned863 _Than You have 10 Variations ......_ HHHVV, HHVHV, HHVVH, HVHHV, HVHVH, HVVHH, VHHHV, VHHVH, VHVHH, VVHHH and in next step.... You can vary the codes .... if in Each of these HV combinations You have the Pin-Combination .... eg. the Master is 77777 than at HHHVV .... 77711, 77713, 77715, 77731, 77733, 77735, 77751, 77753, 77755 ... and so on ...
Would you typically vary more than one pin? I have a job for one master and two change key system. I'm thinking that since it is such a small job this system will work fine. But how many should i vary? Thanks in advance.
PJ --- in the pdf worksheet for this Hold & Vary system, you didn't hold the last column on any of the groupings... which doesn't match what you did in the video. This had me confused for a while, but once I noticed this, the worksheet makes much more sense! Please update your pdf worksheet to reflect what you did in the video. Thanks!
You should not have shallower than the master key cuts in change keys if you vary one chamber only (which normally you would not do anyway) otherwise change key can be filled into master key
The main reason to NOT use Hold and Vary is that you are limiting the expansion-ability to the system. The held and patterns are actually Sub-Masters in a complete system. If you use this system and in the future need to expand the system, you will have to create a standard system and eliminate the sub-masters from the Hold System and rekey the entire system instead of adding to it. This is actually the method of preparing the Sub-Masters if you don't understand master key systems. Someone saw this chart and thought it was a pinning layout, but it is really just how you can determine Sub-Masters in a standard master key system and pinning to those sub-masters instead of to change patterns.
Easy way to form a master key system, however given that some of the varied cuts in the change keys are shallower than those in the same positions than that of of the master key(e.g. 41052, 41054), doesn’t that create a potential security issue(As tsomeone could take the cuts down and possess a master key)?
Hi lokpikr999, thanks for the comment and input! The short answer is yes although you can be cautious of the master key bitting and use shallow cuts on the chambers you want to vary to avoid it. -PJ
There are many ways to create a master key system. Firstly, you always use a 0, 1 or 2 somewhere in the system as this prevents making the Theoretical Master from a change key. This 0,1 or 2 should be one of the three tip cuts to prevent the master key from being extracted with a cylinder turned. It is also recommended that one of the shoulder three cuts be the maximum depth or one cut less than the maximum depth. It is actually recommended that you never use a 0 cut in any Master Key System because generally a 1 and a 0 often can be closer to each other than expected if you are using off-brand key blanks, pins, cylinders, etc. When creating a new master key system ensure that the odd/even pattern is changed, otherwise many of the old keys will be part of the new system. Once you have chosen your Master Key, the Progression Step(2 generally) the Minimum and Maximum pins, the entire master key system is set. Everyone using those parameters will create the exact same master key system.
Thanks for this video. For best practices, should you eliminate the keys that have a higher cut than the master so they couldn't be filed down into a master?
Best practices for the System Theoretical Master is to have one cut near the tip as a shallow cut, and one cut near the shoulder as a deep cut. This provides the highest security of the Master key and prevents the master from being removed from worn out locks with the cylinder turned. This could be something like 26483 or 51628, It does not have to be the tip cut or the shoulder cut, but it should be in that general area.
Hi, PJ. I am not understanding the principle of using a zero to prevent filing a change to a master key in the examples you provided. It would seem to me that if the master is 41056, then pin 1 with a 0 or 2, pin 2 and 3 are safe, pin 4 with a 1 or 3, and pin 5 with a 0, 2, or 4 could be filed down to the master code, am I incorrect? I was thinking if you were to not use the 1 as the 2nd pin, or the 0 as the 3rd pin again in any change key, it would be impossible to file the magical master key and be much more secure. Thanks
To insure that your master is not something that can be filed TO, you need to use a minimum pin size for the brand, as one of the master key cuts. No change key should have that same cut on it. So, if your master is 52314 you would never issue a change key that uses a 1 in the fourth chamber. The method described in this video is actually a method for producing the SUB-Masters in a TRUE Master Key System. A professional locksmith would never pin any locks to work with just a Master and a Sub-Master, that is sloppy locksmithing, and leads to corruption of maintaining a master key system. A proper master key system can be maintained by rekeying a single, or dozens of locks, instead of rekeying hundreds of locks due to a lost key. If you are keying your locks to the sub-Masters of a true system, then you cannot use any of the change patterns that naturally fall within a true master key system if that key is lost. If your sub-master happens to be a GROUP MASTER, it will work 1/4th of the master key system, INCLUDING OTHER SUB MASTERS, if you have already issued the other three GROUP MASTERS then you have no choice but to rekey the entire system, when a professional master key system would allow you to rekey only the affected locks, and issue a new key that will only work the newly changed locks, while any master level key, including sub-masters could potentially be kept intact. THAT is the purpose of a true Master Key SYSTEM.
Excellent video ! Hold, and vary is like big foot for some of us. Heard of it we just never seen it. Always told to stay with progression, stay away from the master bitting. Protect the master. Period ! I will not teach you hold and vary. Now I want to know more.
This is a method of finding the EXISTING sub-masters in a real master key system. This is not a proper method of master-keying a lock and there are plenty of reasons. If I were to hire you and you pinned a master key system like this more than once I would fire you.
This was great PJ, thanks for continuing this with part 2. I’m going to have to re-watch this one a few times. Is this just a structured/predictable way of reducing the key space (possible change keys) from the part 1 progression system, as a conscious trade-off in order to use fewer master wafers, therefore creating fewer possible shear lines and thus better security than the fully progressed system from part 1?
I had a real hard time understanding the Master Keying system until now! My only questions are what/who determines the Master Key bitting and what in the Wide World of Sports is the "0" bottom pin? Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for all you do. V/r, Father Frank
@@clksupplies As the locksmith you should be the one determining what the cuts will be for a master key system. It should have the shortest, or next to shortest cut as one of the cuts, and it should be one of the three tip cuts. The three shoulder cuts should have at least one be the lowest or next to lowest cut. This is the most safe and secure type of Master Key. A 0 should never be used in a Master Key System at all. Your minimum pin should be a 1 or a 2.
All of this makes a lot more sense. Is there a specific way that this is implemented in a hierarchy of grand-master, master, sub-master, and with systems that have an engineering/maintenance key?
Love the videos, but in the system shown, every key broadcasts 4/5 master pins. With a handful of change keys, it’d be trivial to decode the master. Also, some of the codes break the rule that prevents filing down a change key to get the master.
Fantastic. When I mastered our three firehalls, I used the hold and vary method and didn't even know it. You explained sub master on the progression, is it the same with H&V?
This is a method of producing Sub Masters in a standard system, it is misunderstood. It should NEVER be used as a master key system. No PROFESSIONAL would ever do this. It is fine for three or four different pinnings, but if you are going to do a true master key system, do not do this.
@@pouncerminned863 That is correct, it is simply a method of finding SUB-MASTERS. If you used these as CHANGE PATTERNS, you are actually eliminating entire blocks of patterns from a TRUE Master key system. I believe either the poster, or someone who taught the poster saw such a chart, and did not understand what it is for. So they ASSUMED it was a different TYPE of master key system.
Hello PJ Great Video! I see that a Master Key system should us the even-odd or odd-even bitting. I had a Master Key setup and it runs odd-even-even-odd-odd. Whould you suggest I go back to them and have them follow that rule or is there an alternative?
Thank you pj. I just can't grasp how to get more than the first 20 on hold and vary if you need more than 100 for a school that needs master and grand master. Would you please enlighten the next step? Thanks. eflores.
I noticed that with Hold & Vary or progression I get 14 or 15 keys. I need at least 30 keys. In progression I made the 4th column a 7. This gives me an error on verification. How do I expand the key count?
In progression you will need to progress a third chamber. In hold and vary, you need to hold only three chambers instead of four and vary two instead of one.
hang on, what the hell was the point of making sure you had a 0 cut on the master when youre putting that same 0 cut on the majority of the user keys anyway? To make sure a master key cant be filed from a user key, then that 0 shouldnt be on any of them if that was the point of it. As it is, the user with the 41054 key can file the last cut down to a 6 and boom, they have a master key. With a hold and vary system you dont need to make sure there is a 0 cut, you just need to make sure that any given user key has a deeper cut than the master key in at least one of the varied chambers. For example here, with just one varied chamber, in your first column you would throw out the ones with 0, 2, and 4 in the varied chamber (because theyre all shallower than a 6 and could all be filed down to a 6 and thus the user would have a master key), and in the second column you would throw out the ones with 1 and 3 in the varied chamber (in addition to the one exceeding the MACS); in the third column could keep all because theyre all deeper than the master in the varied chamber, and so on. This is where it helps to have two varied chambers, that way it doesnt matter if one of the varied chambers on the user key is shallower than the master as long as both arent. It's kinda worrisome that seemingly none of the comments so far has pointed this rather obvious flaw out
NO Master key system should be set up using a single cut progression. There should always be at least a 2 cut difference between a Master key and a change key. In other words, no professional locksmith would ever use a key that is only one cut different than the Master Key. Hold and Vary is a method of determining Sub-Master keys in a proper master key system, it is not intended to be a master key system itself. Someone at some time saw the Hold and Vary and either did not read the book about what it was, or they simply misunderstood it all. Do not key locks like this as it is unprofessional and no one following you will be able to make it work if another lock is needed to be rekeyed into the system.
Locks are designed to use a standard spring size and a maximum pin size. When you master key a lock, the pin stack should not be larger than the longest pin by itself. Therefore there is no need to change the spring size from the manufacturers suggested length. If you are removing all the old master pins before pinning a lock, then the springs will be perfect. IF you were to find a situation where the pins added up to more than the maximum pin size, then you have a problem, but it is with your pinning, not the springs. The springs should never be adjusted because of your master keying a lock. If for some reason you are crushing a spring, then change the DRIVER pin, not the bottom pin, the master wafer or the spring.
@@martinleclerc382 No, it is possible to do so manually, it is just two additional steps. SFIC A2 systems use a second shear line for the removal (Control) key, the pinning has no affect on the master key system itself, but you have to calculate the proper pin stack to produce both shear lines separately. So, you have to understand that a standard SFIC calculates to 23 for each pin stack. The reason is if you go higher than 23, you will crush the springs in the locks. If you go less than 23, your lock will jam after a bit of use due to debris entering the lock, dust, pocket lint stuck to the key when inserted, lock upside down (shouldn't happen, but does) etc. So, you calculate the pinning for the change key and the master key, then you calculate for the Removal Key *Add 10 to each cut, and complete the pattern to 23 total. Master 267169 Change 421323 Control 293794 Think of these cuts as = 12 19 13 17 19 14 Bottom 221123 added to Master 246246 = 04 06 07 03 06 09 for the control key shear line, which is 10 points higher than the open shear line, we need 12 19 13 17 19 14 so the difference between the pattern we have for the Mastering and the pattern for the Core Key is Core Pins 08 13 06 14 13 05 Then we finish each stack off to a total of 23 Master Wafers 02 04 06 02 04 06 Bottom Pins 02 02 01 01 02 03 Control Wafers 08 13 06 14 13 05 added = 12 19 13 17 19 14 subtract from 23 for each stack to get the driver pins PINNING Driver Pins 11 04 10 06 04 09 Control Pins 08 13 06 14 13 05 Top Pins 02 04 06 02 04 06 Bottom Pins 02 02 01 01 02 03 One more thing, my software does this and much more for a reasonable price, th-cam.com/channels/91oipfhRpbSmAcIZtYqytA.html
@@pouncerminned863 Were you able to look at my software? For reference, I started locksmithing when I was fourteen in 1973. I have worked for some of the largest companies in the world as their locksmith. I have designed master key systems for properties with THOUSANDS of related locks. I wrote Key Trax, and then Key Trax II because there was nothing out there like it, and it is still the only thing like it out there. It not only allows you to set up a master key system, it allows you to maintain it over many years with many lost keys and rekeyed locks, without changing the underlying Theoretical Master. It allows you to not only map a property, indicating the location of each and every piece of lock hardware, but you can map as many locations as you wish for each system you create, and you can create "Theoretically" up to 65676 different systems. I have only tested it personally to creating 50 different systems, but Microsoft says it will handle more.
@@pouncerminned863 Here is the basic rule, you choose your master key. You determine the Odd Even pattern ie if your master is 35441 then your odd even or OE is ooeeo. You use that to determine the FIRST possible change key (pinning pattern) by creating the smallest possible pattern. You cannot use any number that exists in the same position of the master, so your first pattern will be 11223, because we are using 1-7 as pin depth and no 0. From there, you simply keep going, avoiding any number that occurs in the master. 11225 11227, then you progress to the next number from the right, 11263 (cannot use 4 it is in the master at that position) the next pattern would be 11265, and so on. What would come next?
I once taught a class of thirty plus locksmiths how to do this on paper in the field at any time, a one hour class. My ten year old daughter attended the class and worked along with everyone else, she got it right! If she can do it, you can do it. My software simply makes it all easy to TRACK your master key system in a computer so that you can simply look anything to do with the system up quickly. But, you can download the demo, and create many systems, looking at their design layout, that would help you understand their structure. I color code everything. You simply cannot keep your systems in the demo, but you can create as many as you want and view the layout.
@@pouncerminned863 But then you are doing it the wrong way. Hold and Vary is meant to determine sub masters, it is not a TRUE Master Key System, and as I noted, working for a professional, and doing Hold and Vary will get you fired. No, I have not had time to do a class on Master Key Systems, as I am working another full time job. But, my software is not that expensive, and I would certainly respond to any concerns or questions on how to use it and set up a system. I do have a couple of videos that will show you how to use the software, and the user guide is included on the disk (Version 2 only), or you can purchase a printed copy for $10. In my experience, you can read a book or two on how to do it, or you can use software to do it for you, but, until you sit down, and try to create a new system on paper by hand a dozen times, you won't GET IT! You may understand how it lays out, but you need to understand not only how to lay out the pinning patterns, but the sub masters as well. Use my demo, You will find both the pinning chart and the sub masters, combining both into a Proper Complete System. Create a dozen systems and try to learn to predict what pattern should exist at each location on the page. Anyone can write software to create a master key system. I printed the core of Key Trax and sent it to Locksmith Ledger back in 1987, and they printed it up, anyone could copy it and it would print out the complete range of pinning patterns for a master key you entered. That part was only about 160 lines of code in Basica. But, Key Trax is over 6000 lines of code for TRACKING keys, users, lock pinnings, etc. Key Trax II added network ability, location tracking, mapping, Cross-keying and Pinning Date for each cylinder for use by large companies with multiple locksmiths and other departments working with key information. Key Trax and Key Trax II are not about creating Master Key Systems, although they do have that as a feature, they are about MAINTAINING master key systems. th-cam.com/channels/91oipfhRpbSmAcIZtYqytA.html
Love the videos, but in the system shown, every key broadcasts 4/5 master pins. With a handful of change keys, it’d be trivial to decode the master. Also, some of the codes break the rule that prevents filing down a change key to get the master.
![จบจนได้ ! | Black Myth: Wukong #007 [ตอนจบ?]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DSqvWndF0sw/mqdefault.jpg)
Awesome info PJ! I'VE LEARNED SO MUCH FROM YOUR VIDEOS!! YOU ROCK BROTHER🤘 THANK YOU!!!
Hey Chad- Thanks, really glad you find them useful!-PJ
How about doing a follow up video on "Hold & Vary" for 2 or 3 chambers of variance to show us more than an 18 key operating key system with 1 master
Good idea Ken, also related, would be how submaster keys would be determined in this system (something he mentioned in part 1)
This is very easy, you see how he did HHHHV HHHVH HHVHH HVHHH VHHHH? Well, do this:
HHHVV HHVVH HVVHH VVHHH or HVHVH etc
@@pouncerminned863 _Than You have 10 Variations ......_
HHHVV, HHVHV, HHVVH, HVHHV, HVHVH, HVVHH, VHHHV, VHHVH, VHVHH, VVHHH
and in next step....
You can vary the codes .... if in Each of these HV combinations You have the Pin-Combination ....
eg. the Master is 77777 than at HHHVV ....
77711, 77713, 77715, 77731, 77733, 77735, 77751, 77753, 77755 ... and so on ...
I recently took on my first master keying job. This video was a big help. Thanks PJ for all the info. #Lockboss
Great to hear! How did it go? -PJ
It's going really good, I've got a couple buildings left to do. It's a huge property. So much for starting out small lol 😆. Thanks again PJ
Great video
SGreat job PJ
Would you typically vary more than one pin? I have a job for one master and two change key system. I'm thinking that since it is such a small job this system will work fine. But how many should i vary? Thanks in advance.
Excellent information thank you! Just out of curiosity, when you re-pin a lock do you ever use security pins instead of standard? Why or why not?
Hi, Yes I think they are helpful. I have used Spool and Serrated top pins. It really depends on the project. -PJ
PJ --- in the pdf worksheet for this Hold & Vary system, you didn't hold the last column on any of the groupings... which doesn't match what you did in the video. This had me confused for a while, but once I noticed this, the worksheet makes much more sense! Please update your pdf worksheet to reflect what you did in the video. Thanks!
this would be AKA rotating constant, correct?
Hi Jeff, Yes!
hey pj link does work, went back to first video, i am bad :)
You should not have shallower than the master key cuts in change keys if you vary one chamber only (which normally you would not do anyway) otherwise change key can be filled into master key
The main reason to NOT use Hold and Vary is that you are limiting the expansion-ability to the system. The held and patterns are actually Sub-Masters in a complete system. If you use this system and in the future need to expand the system, you will have to create a standard system and eliminate the sub-masters from the Hold System and rekey the entire system instead of adding to it. This is actually the method of preparing the Sub-Masters if you don't understand master key systems. Someone saw this chart and thought it was a pinning layout, but it is really just how you can determine Sub-Masters in a standard master key system and pinning to those sub-masters instead of to change patterns.
Thanks for the input-PJ
Easy way to form a master key system, however given that some of the varied cuts in the change keys are shallower than those in the same positions than that of of the master key(e.g. 41052, 41054), doesn’t that create a potential security issue(As tsomeone could take the cuts down and possess a master key)?
Hi lokpikr999, thanks for the comment and input! The short answer is yes although you can be cautious of the master key bitting and use shallow cuts on the chambers you want to vary to avoid it. -PJ
There are many ways to create a master key system. Firstly, you always use a 0, 1 or 2 somewhere in the system as this prevents making the Theoretical Master from a change key. This 0,1 or 2 should be one of the three tip cuts to prevent the master key from being extracted with a cylinder turned. It is also recommended that one of the shoulder three cuts be the maximum depth or one cut less than the maximum depth. It is actually recommended that you never use a 0 cut in any Master Key System because generally a 1 and a 0 often can be closer to each other than expected if you are using off-brand key blanks, pins, cylinders, etc. When creating a new master key system ensure that the odd/even pattern is changed, otherwise many of the old keys will be part of the new system. Once you have chosen your Master Key, the Progression Step(2 generally) the Minimum and Maximum pins, the entire master key system is set. Everyone using those parameters will create the exact same master key system.
Thanks for this video. For best practices, should you eliminate the keys that have a higher cut than the master so they couldn't be filed down into a master?
Just in one position is fine-PJ
Just in one position is fine-PJ
Best practices for the System Theoretical Master is to have one cut near the tip as a shallow cut, and one cut near the shoulder as a deep cut. This provides the highest security of the Master key and prevents the master from being removed from worn out locks with the cylinder turned. This could be something like 26483 or 51628, It does not have to be the tip cut or the shoulder cut, but it should be in that general area.
Hi, PJ. I am not understanding the principle of using a zero to prevent filing a change to a master key in the examples you provided.
It would seem to me that if the master is 41056, then pin 1 with a 0 or 2, pin 2 and 3 are safe, pin 4 with a 1 or 3, and pin 5 with a 0, 2, or 4 could be filed down to the master code, am I incorrect?
I was thinking if you were to not use the 1 as the 2nd pin, or the 0 as the 3rd pin again in any change key, it would be impossible to file the magical master key and be much more secure. Thanks
To insure that your master is not something that can be filed TO, you need to use a minimum pin size for the brand, as one of the master key cuts. No change key should have that same cut on it. So, if your master is 52314 you would never issue a change key that uses a 1 in the fourth chamber. The method described in this video is actually a method for producing the SUB-Masters in a TRUE Master Key System. A professional locksmith would never pin any locks to work with just a Master and a Sub-Master, that is sloppy locksmithing, and leads to corruption of maintaining a master key system.
A proper master key system can be maintained by rekeying a single, or dozens of locks, instead of rekeying hundreds of locks due to a lost key. If you are keying your locks to the sub-Masters of a true system, then you cannot use any of the change patterns that naturally fall within a true master key system if that key is lost. If your sub-master happens to be a GROUP MASTER, it will work 1/4th of the master key system, INCLUDING OTHER SUB MASTERS, if you have already issued the other three GROUP MASTERS then you have no choice but to rekey the entire system, when a professional master key system would allow you to rekey only the affected locks, and issue a new key that will only work the newly changed locks, while any master level key, including sub-masters could potentially be kept intact. THAT is the purpose of a true Master Key SYSTEM.
Excellent video ! Hold, and vary is like big foot for some of us. Heard of it we just never seen it. Always told to stay with progression, stay away from the master bitting. Protect the master. Period ! I will not teach you hold and vary. Now I want to know more.
Awesome! I typically default most basics systems to Hold and Vary! -PJ
This is a method of finding the EXISTING sub-masters in a real master key system. This is not a proper method of master-keying a lock and there are plenty of reasons. If I were to hire you and you pinned a master key system like this more than once I would fire you.
Hi PJ. Looks like the numbers in the white board are different than the pdf file.
This was great PJ, thanks for continuing this with part 2. I’m going to have to re-watch this one a few times. Is this just a structured/predictable way of reducing the key space (possible change keys) from the part 1 progression system, as a conscious trade-off in order to use fewer master wafers, therefore creating fewer possible shear lines and thus better security than the fully progressed system from part 1?
Yes, hold and vary have less master pins/shear lines which make the more secure AND quicker to rekey 💪 -PJ
Can you add a sub-master to hold and vary? If so, how? Thanks
Great video! Never knew about this system.
#Lockboss 👍😎🤠🇺🇲
I had a real hard time understanding the Master Keying system until now! My only questions are what/who determines the Master Key bitting and what in the Wide World of Sports is the "0" bottom pin? Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for all you do. V/r, Father Frank
Frank, so happy to hear this! Just view a #0 bottom pin as a Zero cut on schlage it is just the height of the stock key blank. -PJ
@@clksupplies As the locksmith you should be the one determining what the cuts will be for a master key system. It should have the shortest, or next to shortest cut as one of the cuts, and it should be one of the three tip cuts. The three shoulder cuts should have at least one be the lowest or next to lowest cut. This is the most safe and secure type of Master Key. A 0 should never be used in a Master Key System at all. Your minimum pin should be a 1 or a 2.
All of this makes a lot more sense. Is there a specific way that this is implemented in a hierarchy of grand-master, master, sub-master, and with systems that have an engineering/maintenance key?
Hey Luke, Yes you can you just have to vary then hold a position for the next level of keys! -PJ
Great! Thank you!
great video pj, hey the link for BASIC MASTER KEYING CHART doesn't work thanks for info
Hi Jerry, the link is fixed. Thanks for letting us know!
great stuff, thanks!
You r the best
Love the videos, but in the system shown, every key broadcasts 4/5 master pins. With a handful of change keys, it’d be trivial to decode the master.
Also, some of the codes break the rule that prevents filing down a change key to get the master.
very good info pj. makse masterkeying simple in approach. thanks #lockboss
Thanks Jerry! -PJ
Fantastic. When I mastered our three firehalls, I used the hold and vary method and didn't even know it. You explained sub master on the progression, is it the same with H&V?
Hey Gumby, you essentially vary 1 chamber for the submaster then leave that chamber alone. -PJ
No understand what it meant? So actually how a sub master is formed?Can Sir explain in detail?
This is a method of producing Sub Masters in a standard system, it is misunderstood. It should NEVER be used as a master key system. No PROFESSIONAL would ever do this. It is fine for three or four different pinnings, but if you are going to do a true master key system, do not do this.
@@thekeywizard3313 can u explain? Are you saying the hold and vary system is not good for masterkeying?
@@pouncerminned863 That is correct, it is simply a method of finding SUB-MASTERS. If you used these as CHANGE PATTERNS, you are actually eliminating entire blocks of patterns from a TRUE Master key system. I believe either the poster, or someone who taught the poster saw such a chart, and did not understand what it is for. So they ASSUMED it was a different TYPE of master key system.
Can i use a hold and vary system on a master key system with multiple submaster keys?
Yes -PJ
Hello PJ Great Video! I see that a Master Key system should us the even-odd or odd-even bitting. I had a Master Key setup and it runs odd-even-even-odd-odd. Whould you suggest I go back to them and have them follow that rule or is there an alternative?
It's fine the way it is-PJ
Thank you pj. I just can't grasp how to get more than the first 20 on hold and vary if you need more than 100 for a school that needs master and grand master. Would you please enlighten the next step? Thanks. eflores.
Since you're doing even/odd or odd/even, you don't always need a 0, you need either a 0 or a 1.
Good information PJ! Thank you! #Lockboss
Isn’t your Print Out for your Hold and Vary Worksheet on step 3 wrong in the last chamber? You Progressed the last chamber instead of holding them.
Will have you check, thanks for the heads up
Hold and Vary is not a valid method of PINNING locks, it is a method of determining Sub-Master keys in a standard progression system.
Again where would I find the PDF for this video?
I noticed that with Hold & Vary or progression I get 14 or 15 keys. I need at least 30 keys. In progression I made the 4th column a 7. This gives me an error on verification. How do I expand the key count?
In progression you will need to progress a third chamber. In hold and vary, you need to hold only three chambers instead of four and vary two instead of one.
Nice information< what is the best computer master keying software out?
Depends on needs, for basic aero key for advanced faster master. We sell them both -PJ
thanks PJ #Lockboss
hang on, what the hell was the point of making sure you had a 0 cut on the master when youre putting that same 0 cut on the majority of the user keys anyway? To make sure a master key cant be filed from a user key, then that 0 shouldnt be on any of them if that was the point of it. As it is, the user with the 41054 key can file the last cut down to a 6 and boom, they have a master key.
With a hold and vary system you dont need to make sure there is a 0 cut, you just need to make sure that any given user key has a deeper cut than the master key in at least one of the varied chambers. For example here, with just one varied chamber, in your first column you would throw out the ones with 0, 2, and 4 in the varied chamber (because theyre all shallower than a 6 and could all be filed down to a 6 and thus the user would have a master key), and in the second column you would throw out the ones with 1 and 3 in the varied chamber (in addition to the one exceeding the MACS); in the third column could keep all because theyre all deeper than the master in the varied chamber, and so on. This is where it helps to have two varied chambers, that way it doesnt matter if one of the varied chambers on the user key is shallower than the master as long as both arent.
It's kinda worrisome that seemingly none of the comments so far has pointed this rather obvious flaw out
Great point! Thank you for taking the time to leave this comment!-PJ
NO Master key system should be set up using a single cut progression. There should always be at least a 2 cut difference between a Master key and a change key. In other words, no professional locksmith would ever use a key that is only one cut different than the Master Key. Hold and Vary is a method of determining Sub-Master keys in a proper master key system, it is not intended to be a master key system itself. Someone at some time saw the Hold and Vary and either did not read the book about what it was, or they simply misunderstood it all. Do not key locks like this as it is unprofessional and no one following you will be able to make it work if another lock is needed to be rekeyed into the system.
Very good very helpful never thought of this #lockboss
I know there's software that'll generate all this but I bet you could make something similar with some mad Microsoft Excel skills
th-cam.com/channels/91oipfhRpbSmAcIZtYqytA.html
Yep great info #lockboss
Why are short springs suggested if you're mastering, instead of long?
The most basic/simple answer is you could/will have several master pins up in the bible which will put extra stress on the spring. -PJ
Got it. You could have the suggested 0 or 1 cut on your master and a 8 or 9 on a user key or similar. Not applicable to my trivial system.
Locks are designed to use a standard spring size and a maximum pin size. When you master key a lock, the pin stack should not be larger than the longest pin by itself. Therefore there is no need to change the spring size from the manufacturers suggested length. If you are removing all the old master pins before pinning a lock, then the springs will be perfect. IF you were to find a situation where the pins added up to more than the maximum pin size, then you have a problem, but it is with your pinning, not the springs. The springs should never be adjusted because of your master keying a lock. If for some reason you are crushing a spring, then change the DRIVER pin, not the bottom pin, the master wafer or the spring.
Hi PJ, do you have a methode like that to design a SFIC A2 system?
Unfortunately I do not-PJ
@@clksupplies so, the only way to design an A2 system it's with a software?
@@martinleclerc382 No, it is possible to do so manually, it is just two additional steps. SFIC A2 systems use a second shear line for the removal (Control) key, the pinning has no affect on the master key system itself, but you have to calculate the proper pin stack to produce both shear lines separately. So, you have to understand that a standard SFIC calculates to 23 for each pin stack. The reason is if you go higher than 23, you will crush the springs in the locks. If you go less than 23, your lock will jam after a bit of use due to debris entering the lock, dust, pocket lint stuck to the key when inserted, lock upside down (shouldn't happen, but does) etc. So, you calculate the pinning for the change key and the master key, then you calculate for the Removal Key *Add 10 to each cut, and complete the pattern to 23 total.
Master 267169
Change 421323
Control 293794 Think of these cuts as = 12 19 13 17 19 14
Bottom 221123 added to
Master 246246
= 04 06 07 03 06 09 for the control key shear line, which is 10 points higher than the open shear line,
we need 12 19 13 17 19 14 so the difference between the pattern we have for the Mastering and the pattern for the Core Key is
Core Pins 08 13 06 14 13 05
Then we finish each stack off to a total of 23
Master Wafers 02 04 06 02 04 06
Bottom Pins 02 02 01 01 02 03
Control Wafers 08 13 06 14 13 05
added = 12 19 13 17 19 14
subtract from 23 for each stack to get the driver pins
PINNING
Driver Pins 11 04 10 06 04 09
Control Pins 08 13 06 14 13 05
Top Pins 02 04 06 02 04 06
Bottom Pins 02 02 01 01 02 03
One more thing, my software does this and much more for a reasonable price, th-cam.com/channels/91oipfhRpbSmAcIZtYqytA.html
How would you do a sub master key for this
Please see my other comments, these ARE sub masters! That is why it is a bad idea to key locks like this.
Hi sir. Can you also explain how to form a sub master key in this Hold and Vary System?
These are sub-masters for a real system.
@@pouncerminned863 Were you able to look at my software? For reference, I started locksmithing when I was fourteen in 1973. I have worked for some of the largest companies in the world as their locksmith. I have designed master key systems for properties with THOUSANDS of related locks. I wrote Key Trax, and then Key Trax II because there was nothing out there like it, and it is still the only thing like it out there. It not only allows you to set up a master key system, it allows you to maintain it over many years with many lost keys and rekeyed locks, without changing the underlying Theoretical Master. It allows you to not only map a property, indicating the location of each and every piece of lock hardware, but you can map as many locations as you wish for each system you create, and you can create "Theoretically" up to 65676 different systems. I have only tested it personally to creating 50 different systems, but Microsoft says it will handle more.
@@pouncerminned863 Here is the basic rule, you choose your master key. You determine the Odd Even pattern ie if your master is 35441 then your odd even or OE is ooeeo. You use that to determine the FIRST possible change key (pinning pattern) by creating the smallest possible pattern. You cannot use any number that exists in the same position of the master, so your first pattern will be 11223, because we are using 1-7 as pin depth and no 0. From there, you simply keep going, avoiding any number that occurs in the master. 11225 11227, then you progress to the next number from the right, 11263 (cannot use 4 it is in the master at that position) the next pattern would be 11265, and so on. What would come next?
I once taught a class of thirty plus locksmiths how to do this on paper in the field at any time, a one hour class. My ten year old daughter attended the class and worked along with everyone else, she got it right! If she can do it, you can do it. My software simply makes it all easy to TRACK your master key system in a computer so that you can simply look anything to do with the system up quickly. But, you can download the demo, and create many systems, looking at their design layout, that would help you understand their structure. I color code everything. You simply cannot keep your systems in the demo, but you can create as many as you want and view the layout.
@@pouncerminned863 But then you are doing it the wrong way. Hold and Vary is meant to determine sub masters, it is not a TRUE Master Key System, and as I noted, working for a professional, and doing Hold and Vary will get you fired. No, I have not had time to do a class on Master Key Systems, as I am working another full time job. But, my software is not that expensive, and I would certainly respond to any concerns or questions on how to use it and set up a system. I do have a couple of videos that will show you how to use the software, and the user guide is included on the disk (Version 2 only), or you can purchase a printed copy for $10.
In my experience, you can read a book or two on how to do it, or you can use software to do it for you, but, until you sit down, and try to create a new system on paper by hand a dozen times, you won't GET IT! You may understand how it lays out, but you need to understand not only how to lay out the pinning patterns, but the sub masters as well.
Use my demo, You will find both the pinning chart and the sub masters, combining both into a Proper Complete System. Create a dozen systems and try to learn to predict what pattern should exist at each location on the page. Anyone can write software to create a master key system. I printed the core of Key Trax and sent it to Locksmith Ledger back in 1987, and they printed it up, anyone could copy it and it would print out the complete range of pinning patterns for a master key you entered. That part was only about 160 lines of code in Basica. But, Key Trax is over 6000 lines of code for TRACKING keys, users, lock pinnings, etc. Key Trax II added network ability, location tracking, mapping, Cross-keying and Pinning Date for each cylinder for use by large companies with multiple locksmiths and other departments working with key information.
Key Trax and Key Trax II are not about creating Master Key Systems, although they do have that as a feature, they are about MAINTAINING master key systems. th-cam.com/channels/91oipfhRpbSmAcIZtYqytA.html
By the way you need a real tattoo lol!!
🤣 you liked my ink?haha -PJ
Love the videos, but in the system shown, every key broadcasts 4/5 master pins. With a handful of change keys, it’d be trivial to decode the master.
Also, some of the codes break the rule that prevents filing down a change key to get the master.