Once a bearded man went to our upc church and he was the only one there with a beard. On the way home he made the comment of being the only one there with a beard and my husband had made the comment about how God convicted him of his beard. Not too long after that, that pastor taught his church that he had been studying and could not find where it was wrong to have a beard. So i agree it wasnt conviction he just felt out of place since he was the only one there with one. I will say that even tho the pastor could find no harm of having a beard he told his congregation that he had always taught against them and still wanted them to go along with his teachings. Seems a bit hypocritical. That really opened my eyes to alot. Thank you for sharing. ❤️
I believe thru a personal relationship God may deal with you about what not to wear anymore and how he wants you to look but not giving up to things to get closer to God! I believe when we draw near to him he will talk to us on an individual level. Following a standard to gain God's favor never works but following God may produce in you a certain standard for yourself.
Excellent example! And no giving up more doesn’t make me closer to God, it makes me feel incredibly stressed actually and severely depressed. Not because I seek outlandish things; I’m happiest with comfy jeans and a hoodie shirt with flip flops. The kindest and most loving people I’ve ever met looked the complete opposite of “holiness”, and they also seemed to be the happiest.
I grew up just like you, and agree with everything you are saying. I'm excited to have found this group online and to join an upcoming online group. I read a book many years ago that helped me understand why people (and myself) found blessings (for a time) in "giving something up." The book is called "The Vow: How a Forgotten Ancient Practice Can Transform Your Life" by Ed Gungor (the brother of the well-known Mark Gungor, pastor of Celebration Church). In the book, Ed Gungor talks about how vows in the Bible were only for a certain time period (for example a Nazarite vow), and he also talks about what happens when groups turn "vows" into "lifestyles" it becomes a worldly culture of its own and loses the power of "fasting" something for a season through personal dedication to God. . . So to your question does giving something up draw you closer to God? I think it can when it is done in a spirit of fasting and seeking God, and not as a rule or put on anyone else. Remember that scripture that the Lord is close to those that are brokenhearted? I think that is what people feel when they "punish" themselves or are in abusive church situations -- for some reason, they feel the "intensity" of emotion makes them feel close to God (verses having a daily, stable walk with God that bears fruit but maybe isn't as intense or emotional.) Sometimes I think, yes, God is close to people in terrible churches because God is close to people going through terrible things - even if they don't see what they are going through as terrible. From what I've seen, A LOT of people in holiness movements come from horrific abusive backgrounds and or addictive lifestyles. They are attracted to the rules and stay for a few reasons: 1. It feels "safe" compared to what they have experienced, 2. Abuse feels like "home" - even though now it is coming verbally from a pulpit and socially through pressure - when before it might have come through beatings or worse, 3. They have low self-worth and need the acceptance of a group to feel a part of something (but hey we all need that on some level!), 4. They feel loyalty and are willing to conform even though they may not feel it is 100% necessary, 5. They have long-term family and friends that they are involved within the group. I personally believe God can use all churches (even churches that I would not personally attend) to reach certain people. Many, many people attend a holiness type of church for a season of their life, and it can bring about good things that people need to be able to climb out from where they were before being a part of the group. Well, that's all for now, but I could talk on these things for a long time.
Was so happy to see a new upload from y'all. Nice video. Your channel and website have been very interesting to me. I grew up Pentecostal Holiness (our Churches were just called Holiness or Free Holiness). This particular Holiness denomination had the typical attributes: speaking in tongues required as evidence of the Holy Ghost, entire sanctification, and NO backsliding or else you lose the Holy Ghost and can never be saved again. Anyway, I got groomed into scientific materialism by the internet when I was 14 and became an atheist for about 7 years. 2 years ago I stopped being a materialist for many reasons and began investigating different belief systems starting with Eastern religions and pagan practices, eventually coming back around to re-investigating Christianity. I started attending the Church I grew up in and have been going there for about 10 months. I have been doing lots of research into the scriptures and praying for guidance to determine whether or not the Church was correct in its beliefs. Your resources have been really helpful in discerning that this is likely not the case. I feel really bad because I never got the Holy Ghost before I became an atheist and it has always devastated my parents and family, and when i came back into the Church I really WANTED to be able to believe the doctrine so that I could reconcile with my family and make them all not think I am doomed to hell for the sake of their emotional and spiritual well-being. As much as I want that harmony, it looks like it will not happen in that full way while I honestly seek the truth of the Word of God.
Hello! Yes, I'm familiar with the Free Holiness teachings, as well as their consequences. Taking all second chances of forgiveness out of the gospel is incredibly discouraging to those who speak in tongues and then feel like they've made a mistake too big for God to forgive. It's so sad. I'm grateful to hear our resources have been helpful to you. We're hoping to keep the TH-cam channel more active going forward. If you have Instagram or Facebook, we're more consistent on those platforms. Another resource you may not be aware of is our community groups. We'll have information up on our website in February regarding the next season of groups. Groups meet once a week (via Zoom) for 6-8 weeks. Some of our studies are topical (for instance, cross-examining Holiness teachings), but we also have verse-by-verse Bible studies and book studies (depending on how many leaders volunteer and what their expertise is in). We'd love to have you join us if that's a resource you'd be interested in! Feel free to reach out via email anytime: bereanholiness@gmail.com. Blessings, Natalie
Very interesting and well said. Based on my own personal experience, I wonder how long these converts kept not only their convictions but their conversion as well. Consider that Cartwright wrote that even the ungodly expected Christians to dress plainly. This means that their standards were well-known, and therefore, anyone who wanted to become a Christian in such circles would have believed that they likewise needed to give up all finery. Therefore, we could have Mr. Young Man not wanting to get saved because he believed that he MUST give up his ruffles to be saved. Finally, he works himself to the place where he’s willing to tear off his ruffles because he wants Jesus more. It SOUNDS spiritual, but maybe he did exactly what Peter Cartwright said: he got religion.
We are struggling with these things ourselves we have been in pentacostal holiness for 17 years and my how the mighty have fallen .they that preach these and don't live by them but press on others to carry them out .we have been through this they now ni longer live out theses standards did it keep them holy its speaks for its self no!!!!! We are so confused about all the standards we have been in and out for along time should we have TV should we have internet in our homes should leggins be an issue but it is right we were taught they were paints we would welcome any god advice on these matters
I think it's more about the idea of outward separation from the world we live in today as opposed to keeping the same standards throughout the centuries. For example, you said the way you're dressed here would be fine in the church today. It's modest, and I'm sure most people can tell a difference when they see you and probably assume you're Christian. That's good. Maybe the standards have changed bc the fashions have changed. We don't wear victorian styled clothes anymore so if course you would look out of place or worldly to someone back then. The main thing is we as Christians stay separated from the world and try to please God and not man.
Even if separation has to do with outward appearance, that separation should also remain within the given relevance of our culture. If we were to dress like Puritans today, we wouldn't be seen as separated from the world, but weirdly out of touch with cultural reality. To be biblically separated from the world is to be separated from the three biblical categories that strictly define worldliness. 1. The lust of the flesh 2. The lust of the eyes 3. The pride of life Thus, separated from the world means to abstain from these three patterns of BEHAVIOR. Separation from the world has very little to do with outward appearance.
@@stephenbogan5961 I never said you weren't supposed to be separated in behavior. That's a given and number one priority. The video was about outward separation and holiness standards. God absolutely wants you to be holy and separated from the inside out. If you look holy on the outside but your full of sin, it's completely in vain. Your body is God's temple so He does care what you do with it and how you present yourself to this world.
@TheMysticalMoonlight He cares about us being a light to the world, not a bunch of weirdos in puritanical period clothing that isn't relevant to our culture. Being a light to the world is taking on the fruit of the Spirit, so that the character of Christ himself is evident in the way we treat others.
@@stephenbogan5961 Read Romans 12. God requires holiness from the inside out. Your body is not your own. It's bought with a price. Glorify God in your BODY AND your spirit which are God's. 1 Corinthians 6:20
@@TheMysticalMoonlightin the epistle to diognetus speaking about manners of early Christians, he writes they weren’t distinguishable by customs they observed. They dressed, spoke the same language, ate, and married like everyone else.
And no it doesn't make you closer to God the more you give up no it doesn't make us more holy then my next question out there would be what than and how than do you live
What a great job exposing the fact that holiness organizations aren't even "holiness" anymore by the standards mentioned.
Once a bearded man went to our upc church and he was the only one there with a beard. On the way home he made the comment of being the only one there with a beard and my husband had made the comment about how God convicted him of his beard. Not too long after that, that pastor taught his church that he had been studying and could not find where it was wrong to have a beard. So i agree it wasnt conviction he just felt out of place since he was the only one there with one.
I will say that even tho the pastor could find no harm of having a beard he told his congregation that he had always taught against them and still wanted them to go along with his teachings. Seems a bit hypocritical. That really opened my eyes to alot. Thank you for sharing. ❤️
I'm so thankful to be Free in Christ Jesus!
Bless you. Keep following how the Lord is leading you.
I believe thru a personal relationship God may deal with you about what not to wear anymore and how he wants you to look but not giving up to things to get closer to God! I believe when we draw near to him he will talk to us on an individual level. Following a standard to gain God's favor never works but following God may produce in you a certain standard for yourself.
Excellent example! And no giving up more doesn’t make me closer to God, it makes me feel incredibly stressed actually and severely depressed. Not because I seek outlandish things; I’m happiest with comfy jeans and a hoodie shirt with flip flops. The kindest and most loving people I’ve ever met looked the complete opposite of “holiness”, and they also seemed to be the happiest.
And, those people aren’t as “judge mental” as some apostolic/Pentecostal people are.
I grew up just like you, and agree with everything you are saying. I'm excited to have found this group online and to join an upcoming online group. I read a book many years ago that helped me understand why people (and myself) found blessings (for a time) in "giving something up." The book is called "The Vow: How a Forgotten Ancient Practice Can Transform Your Life" by Ed Gungor (the brother of the well-known Mark Gungor, pastor of Celebration Church). In the book, Ed Gungor talks about how vows in the Bible were only for a certain time period (for example a Nazarite vow), and he also talks about what happens when groups turn "vows" into "lifestyles" it becomes a worldly culture of its own and loses the power of "fasting" something for a season through personal dedication to God. . . So to your question does giving something up draw you closer to God? I think it can when it is done in a spirit of fasting and seeking God, and not as a rule or put on anyone else. Remember that scripture that the Lord is close to those that are brokenhearted? I think that is what people feel when they "punish" themselves or are in abusive church situations -- for some reason, they feel the "intensity" of emotion makes them feel close to God (verses having a daily, stable walk with God that bears fruit but maybe isn't as intense or emotional.) Sometimes I think, yes, God is close to people in terrible churches because God is close to people going through terrible things - even if they don't see what they are going through as terrible. From what I've seen, A LOT of people in holiness movements come from horrific abusive backgrounds and or addictive lifestyles. They are attracted to the rules and stay for a few reasons: 1. It feels "safe" compared to what they have experienced, 2. Abuse feels like "home" - even though now it is coming verbally from a pulpit and socially through pressure - when before it might have come through beatings or worse, 3. They have low self-worth and need the acceptance of a group to feel a part of something (but hey we all need that on some level!), 4. They feel loyalty and are willing to conform even though they may not feel it is 100% necessary, 5. They have long-term family and friends that they are involved within the group. I personally believe God can use all churches (even churches that I would not personally attend) to reach certain people. Many, many people attend a holiness type of church for a season of their life, and it can bring about good things that people need to be able to climb out from where they were before being a part of the group. Well, that's all for now, but I could talk on these things for a long time.
Was so happy to see a new upload from y'all. Nice video. Your channel and website have been very interesting to me. I grew up Pentecostal Holiness (our Churches were just called Holiness or Free Holiness). This particular Holiness denomination had the typical attributes: speaking in tongues required as evidence of the Holy Ghost, entire sanctification, and NO backsliding or else you lose the Holy Ghost and can never be saved again. Anyway, I got groomed into scientific materialism by the internet when I was 14 and became an atheist for about 7 years. 2 years ago I stopped being a materialist for many reasons and began investigating different belief systems starting with Eastern religions and pagan practices, eventually coming back around to re-investigating Christianity. I started attending the Church I grew up in and have been going there for about 10 months.
I have been doing lots of research into the scriptures and praying for guidance to determine whether or not the Church was correct in its beliefs. Your resources have been really helpful in discerning that this is likely not the case. I feel really bad because I never got the Holy Ghost before I became an atheist and it has always devastated my parents and family, and when i came back into the Church I really WANTED to be able to believe the doctrine so that I could reconcile with my family and make them all not think I am doomed to hell for the sake of their emotional and spiritual well-being. As much as I want that harmony, it looks like it will not happen in that full way while I honestly seek the truth of the Word of God.
Hello! Yes, I'm familiar with the Free Holiness teachings, as well as their consequences. Taking all second chances of forgiveness out of the gospel is incredibly discouraging to those who speak in tongues and then feel like they've made a mistake too big for God to forgive. It's so sad.
I'm grateful to hear our resources have been helpful to you. We're hoping to keep the TH-cam channel more active going forward. If you have Instagram or Facebook, we're more consistent on those platforms. Another resource you may not be aware of is our community groups. We'll have information up on our website in February regarding the next season of groups. Groups meet once a week (via Zoom) for 6-8 weeks. Some of our studies are topical (for instance, cross-examining Holiness teachings), but we also have verse-by-verse Bible studies and book studies (depending on how many leaders volunteer and what their expertise is in). We'd love to have you join us if that's a resource you'd be interested in! Feel free to reach out via email anytime: bereanholiness@gmail.com.
Blessings,
Natalie
Very interesting and well said. Based on my own personal experience, I wonder how long these converts kept not only their convictions but their conversion as well.
Consider that Cartwright wrote that even the ungodly expected Christians to dress plainly. This means that their standards were well-known, and therefore, anyone who wanted to become a Christian in such circles would have believed that they likewise needed to give up all finery. Therefore, we could have Mr. Young Man not wanting to get saved because he believed that he MUST give up his ruffles to be saved. Finally, he works himself to the place where he’s willing to tear off his ruffles because he wants Jesus more. It SOUNDS spiritual, but maybe he did exactly what Peter Cartwright said: he got religion.
We are struggling with these things ourselves we have been in pentacostal holiness for 17 years and my how the mighty have fallen .they that preach these and don't live by them but press on others to carry them out .we have been through this they now ni longer live out theses standards did it keep them holy its speaks for its self no!!!!! We are so confused about all the standards we have been in and out for along time should we have TV should we have internet in our homes should leggins be an issue but it is right we were taught they were paints we would welcome any god advice on these matters
I think it's more about the idea of outward separation from the world we live in today as opposed to keeping the same standards throughout the centuries. For example, you said the way you're dressed here would be fine in the church today. It's modest, and I'm sure most people can tell a difference when they see you and probably assume you're Christian. That's good. Maybe the standards have changed bc the fashions have changed. We don't wear victorian styled clothes anymore so if course you would look out of place or worldly to someone back then. The main thing is we as Christians stay separated from the world and try to please God and not man.
Even if separation has to do with outward appearance, that separation should also remain within the given relevance of our culture. If we were to dress like Puritans today, we wouldn't be seen as separated from the world, but weirdly out of touch with cultural reality.
To be biblically separated from the world is to be separated from the three biblical categories that strictly define worldliness.
1. The lust of the flesh
2. The lust of the eyes
3. The pride of life
Thus, separated from the world means to abstain from these three patterns of BEHAVIOR. Separation from the world has very little to do with outward appearance.
@@stephenbogan5961 I never said you weren't supposed to be separated in behavior. That's a given and number one priority. The video was about outward separation and holiness standards. God absolutely wants you to be holy and separated from the inside out. If you look holy on the outside but your full of sin, it's completely in vain. Your body is God's temple so He does care what you do with it and how you present yourself to this world.
@TheMysticalMoonlight He cares about us being a light to the world, not a bunch of weirdos in puritanical period clothing that isn't relevant to our culture.
Being a light to the world is taking on the fruit of the Spirit, so that the character of Christ himself is evident in the way we treat others.
@@stephenbogan5961 Read Romans 12. God requires holiness from the inside out. Your body is not your own. It's bought with a price. Glorify God in your BODY AND your spirit which are God's. 1 Corinthians 6:20
@@TheMysticalMoonlightin the epistle to diognetus speaking about manners of early Christians, he writes they weren’t distinguishable by customs they observed. They dressed, spoke the same language, ate, and married like everyone else.
Don't give them too many ideas! 🤣
And no it doesn't make you closer to God the more you give up no it doesn't make us more holy then my next question out there would be what than and how than do you live