My sister-in-law (Kathryn Groves) actually works at the UPCI headquarters as their Director of Research & Develppment and has been part of their recent (since 2021) data & statistics output. If you were interested in getting in touch with her, I could probably help with that. My wife and I left the UPCI this year, so I’m sympathetic to what you’re trying to accomplish with this kind of content. Thank you for taking the time and resources to contribute to this conversation with the UPCI.
Blessings to you at Berean Holiness. I was raised in Apostolic churches, mostly UPC, and totally get what you are saying. Although it has been over 40 years since I’ve left, I remember it all as if it were just last week. I think the attitude Bethany expressed in this video is really important. Over the decades of my life, I have found out later that I’ve been wrong about many things; but at the time, I was never wrong on purpose. I think that is likely true of just about everyone. While in that movement I was privileged to get to know many wonderful people who truely loved Jesus, worked hard to serve Him faithfully, and contributed good things into my life. And I still love them dearly and regularly thank God for them. While still a teenager, I memorized most of the supporting scriptures and arguments; it seemed a slam dunk to me (at the time). Then I spent time reading the Bible through, Gen to Rev. After beginning to see the more complete picture, and over many years, I gradually saw the false assumptions this rational is based on. In just the right framework of presuppositions, it seems to make perfect sense. While I love to read and learn from great Christian theologians from lots of different denominations, I’ve come to think that God is not very concerned if I can accurately state and argue Christian doctrines. I suspect above all that He wants me to cooperate with Him to cultivate, in my life, the fruit of his Holy Spirit. “No, O people, the Lord has told you what is good, and this is what he requires of you: to do what is right, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.” (Micah 6:8 NLT) “... I, the Lord, have spoken! “I will bless those who have humble and contrite hearts, who tremble at my word.” (Isaiah 66:2 NLT)
This is all so interesting! Thank you for diving deep into the church history! I have heard it taught that revival started up again during Azusa street revival and that it was a continuation of the acts 2:38 experience! lol
So you guys took the dive to get out of oneness but you actually have not left it totally because both Trinitarian and Oneness believe almost the same about Jesus but describe him differently.I challenge you to go even deeper in your diving and reexamine the Book of Acts.It is the only book in the NT that contains the actual verbatim preaching of the apostles to lost people and here come the knee jerk reaction ready? No where in the Book of Acts did they preach that Jesus was God,no god man dual nature hyperstation union no flesh suit none of that smack both camps use to explain God..look for yourself.Former oneness myself so I know their thinking but again have another look.
Righteousness is something we can attain and is a WAY of applying knowledge in your walk. Righteousness is a fruit that comes when we apply obedience according to Gods laws and instructions and not our own understandings and reasonings.
I think another point to note is Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. This verse is used a lot to justify that the more narrow your position is, the more correct it will be. This mindset just leads to more extreme views and looking at more mainstream interpretations as wrong and leading people to hell.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved The name of Jesus is the only name ever used in baptism in the scriptures. That's a fact.
Actually no where in scripture do we have a baptism taking place that records the precise words used during a baptism. It’s just not there. I currently attend a UPCI a church and commend your mastery of the talking points but they don’t match scripture.
Nathalie, your statistics is very misleading, your are comparing growth rate of global Pentecostalism which is largely trinitarian but includes oneness pentecostal, to the growth rate of the UPCI in North America. Why not compare the growth rate of the UPCI in north america to the Assemblies of God. The truth is that the Oneness movement is growing largely outside of global west.
Just wondering why and maybe you can explain? I listen to how you cover baptism here and there and make comments that it's a community thing and such and every one of you come from a, let's just say, Acts 2:38 background of quite a few years know the arguments here and none of you try to clear them up. Such as Acts 10:47-48 "Can any man forbid (hinder) water that these should not be baptized..." a community thing you say? " And he commanded them to be Baptized"... Community? 1Peter 3:20-21 ..."eight souls were saved by water. The like (Antitype, namely baptism, which does fulfill) figure whereunto baptism doth also now save us"... Again, Community you say? Romans 6:3-5 "Know ye not (Paul talking to the Saints of Rome) that so many of us were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death. THEREFORE we are buried with him BY BAPTISM into death: that like as Christ... we have been planted (united) together in the likeness of his death we shall ALL be also in the likeness of his resurrection" .... Remember now he wrote all this before he wrote, Chapter 10 saying, "...just believe..." Please explain to me how this Baptism is just a community thing, an expression of your faith to others? I disagree with many of the church doctrines these organizations teach that are certainly not found in scripture, only if you Proof Text your doctrine with a few examples to make your point they can make the unlearned believe. I am open to hear your Biblical proof, not reasoning, that your view is a valid one.
Matthew 28:19 is clearly an interpolation (added after the original had been pend). It is in the majority of the text but not universal. Nowhere in any scripture is it recorded that anyone was baptized in this formula.
You do realize that Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" is Jesus himself speaking , correct ?
What's the point of the growth rate. The point should be what is the biblical proscription for "salvation" and are we following that. I do not believe there can be multiple paths to salvation within " Christianity.
Romans 10:9-13 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” So was Paul lying here and Jesus just making a mistake in Matthew 28:19 ?
The fact is that trinitarian theology is confusing. The real question is who is Jesus? Is he the second person of a corporate godhead or is he the creator incarnate? There is a huge difference between those two ideas. Throughout scripture God refers to himself in primarily singular masculine terms.
The main problem with the Trinity teaching is that they always say, 3 "Persons". How is God the Father a "Person" or even the "Holy Ghost"? by the way who Fathered Jesus, God the Father?
It's not there is it? Just as it doesn't say you go there at the Resurrection in that day. It's only assumed and therefore you are taught this. (You may have meant this in your statement)
What does it mean to call on the name? And who is this lord? ct 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost These are the words of a first century Apostle.
Oneness pentecostalism did not exist! I'm sorry but first century Apostolic bodies have existed in the earth for two thousand years. ( See the works if Dr, Marvin M Arnold)
My sister-in-law (Kathryn Groves) actually works at the UPCI headquarters as their Director of Research & Develppment and has been part of their recent (since 2021) data & statistics output. If you were interested in getting in touch with her, I could probably help with that.
My wife and I left the UPCI this year, so I’m sympathetic to what you’re trying to accomplish with this kind of content. Thank you for taking the time and resources to contribute to this conversation with the UPCI.
Blessings to you at Berean Holiness. I was raised in Apostolic churches, mostly UPC, and totally get what you are saying. Although it has been over 40 years since I’ve left, I remember it all as if it were just last week. I think the attitude Bethany expressed in this video is really important. Over the decades of my life, I have found out later that I’ve been wrong about many things; but at the time, I was never wrong on purpose. I think that is likely true of just about everyone. While in that movement I was privileged to get to know many wonderful people who truely loved Jesus, worked hard to serve Him faithfully, and contributed good things into my life.
And I still love them dearly and regularly thank God for them. While still a teenager, I memorized most of the supporting scriptures and arguments; it seemed a slam dunk to me (at the time). Then I spent time reading the Bible through, Gen to Rev. After beginning to see the more complete picture, and over many years, I gradually saw the false assumptions this rational is based on. In just the right framework of presuppositions, it seems to make perfect sense.
While I love to read and learn from great Christian theologians from lots of different denominations, I’ve come to think that God is not very concerned if I can accurately state and argue Christian doctrines. I suspect above all that He wants me to cooperate with Him to cultivate, in my life, the fruit of his Holy Spirit.
“No, O people, the Lord has told you what is good, and this is what he requires of you: to do what is right, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.” (Micah 6:8 NLT)
“... I, the Lord, have spoken! “I will bless those who have humble and contrite hearts, who tremble at my word.” (Isaiah 66:2 NLT)
42:20 I did not know that about church history! I thought or was led to believe they were all oneness or had converted permanently
This is all so interesting! Thank you for diving deep into the church history! I have heard it taught that revival started up again during Azusa street revival and that it was a continuation of the acts 2:38 experience! lol
What happened in 2008 with the UPCI?
God's Grace is sovereign. No denomination has a corner on God's Grace!!! UPCI GET OVER YOURSELF!!!!
I have videography & pro video editing I have left mentally but waiting for when my wife is ready to leave
To say “righteousness is in us” if we are actively doing anything against gods laws (that’s sin) then that cannot be true.
So you guys took the dive to get out of oneness but you actually have not left it totally because both Trinitarian and Oneness believe almost the same about Jesus but describe him differently.I challenge you to go even deeper in your diving and reexamine the Book of Acts.It is the only book in the NT that contains the actual verbatim preaching of the apostles to lost people and here come the knee jerk reaction ready?
No where in the Book of Acts did they preach that Jesus was God,no god man dual nature hyperstation union no flesh suit none of that smack both camps use to explain God..look for yourself.Former oneness myself so I know their thinking but again have another look.
Righteousness is something we can attain and is a WAY of applying knowledge in your walk. Righteousness is a fruit that comes when we apply obedience according to Gods laws and instructions and not our own understandings and reasonings.
I think another point to note is Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. This verse is used a lot to justify that the more narrow your position is, the more correct it will be. This mindset just leads to more extreme views and looking at more mainstream interpretations as wrong and leading people to hell.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved
The name of Jesus is the only name ever used in baptism in the scriptures. That's a fact.
Actually no where in scripture do we have a baptism taking place that records the precise words used during a baptism. It’s just not there. I currently attend a UPCI a church and commend your mastery of the talking points but they don’t match scripture.
Nathalie, your statistics is very misleading, your are comparing growth rate of global Pentecostalism which is largely trinitarian but includes oneness pentecostal, to the growth rate of the UPCI in North America. Why not compare the growth rate of the UPCI in north america to the Assemblies of God. The truth is that the Oneness movement is growing largely outside of global west.
There's a difference between righteousness from God and ongoing sanctification.
Just wondering why and maybe you can explain? I listen to how you cover baptism here and there and make comments that it's a community thing and such and every one of you come from a, let's just say, Acts 2:38 background of quite a few years know the arguments here and none of you try to clear them up. Such as
Acts 10:47-48 "Can any man forbid (hinder) water that these should not be baptized..." a community thing you say?
" And he commanded them to be Baptized"... Community?
1Peter 3:20-21 ..."eight souls were saved by water. The like (Antitype, namely baptism, which does fulfill) figure whereunto baptism doth also now save us"... Again, Community you say?
Romans 6:3-5 "Know ye not (Paul talking to the Saints of Rome) that so many of us were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death. THEREFORE we are buried with him BY BAPTISM into death: that like as Christ... we have been planted (united) together in the likeness of his death we shall ALL be also in the likeness of his resurrection" .... Remember now he wrote all this before he wrote, Chapter 10 saying, "...just believe..."
Please explain to me how this Baptism is just a community thing, an expression of your faith to others? I disagree with many of the church doctrines these organizations teach that are certainly not found in scripture, only if you Proof Text your doctrine with a few examples to make your point they can make the unlearned believe. I am open to hear your Biblical proof, not reasoning, that your view is a valid one.
It just blows my mind that upci thinks they are the only truth for salvation.
Matthew 28:19 is clearly an interpolation (added after the original had been pend).
It is in the majority of the text but not universal.
Nowhere in any scripture is it recorded that anyone was baptized in this formula.
You do realize that Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" is Jesus himself speaking , correct ?
Saved? How many people were on the ark?
It's not about numbers. It never had been.
What's the point of the growth rate.
The point should be what is the biblical proscription for "salvation" and are we following that.
I do not believe there can be multiple paths to salvation within " Christianity.
Romans 10:9-13
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
So was Paul lying here and Jesus just making a mistake in Matthew 28:19 ?
What are the sources of the information on upci holiness standards and Acts 2:38 doctrine?
I appreciate the conversation.
The fact is that trinitarian theology is confusing.
The real question is who is Jesus?
Is he the second person of a corporate godhead or is he the creator incarnate?
There is a huge difference between those two ideas.
Throughout scripture God refers to himself in primarily singular masculine terms.
The main problem with the Trinity teaching is that they always say, 3 "Persons". How is God the Father a "Person" or even the "Holy Ghost"? by the way who Fathered Jesus, God the Father?
I appreciate that you are trying to separate truth from tradition but you going forward in one area and backwards in another.
There had always been an Apostolic bodie in the earth.
Where is the scriptures is it taught that anyone goes to " Heaven"?
It's not there is it? Just as it doesn't say you go there at the Resurrection in that day. It's only assumed and therefore you are taught this. (You may have meant this in your statement)
At what point does God approve of the sock length??😂😂😂...that's hilarious.
What does it mean to call on the name? And who is this lord?
ct 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Looks like they are not going to respond. Why?
John the Baptist parents were righteous
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost
These are the words of a first century Apostle.
Oneness pentecostalism did not exist!
I'm sorry but first century Apostolic bodies have existed in the earth for two thousand years. ( See the works if Dr, Marvin M Arnold)
Jesus has given us grace and it abounds but we cannot be unrighteous by sinning. We must obey by doing His feasts and food laws or we are liars.
Oneness is true. Jesus is the only God