This was me six years ago. I ended up becoming a Catholic, but the EO/Cath/Prot limbo is such a difficult place to be. God bless you brother. I will offer my prayers tonight for you.
thats where I am right now! somewhere between lutheran or EO or maybe just going back home to charismatic evangelicalism (God forbid.) please pray for me, brother. God bless
I love Derek and really appreciate his story. I'd rather he become Orthodox now and continue to explore his faith and maybe become Catholic someday than stay in limbo between the two and not receive the Sacraments. He's a good and righteous man, and God will lead him where he needs to be. I'll just keep praying that his final step will be towards Catholicism, and I'll keep embracing him as a brother in Christ in the mean time
I'm in such a similar spot to Derek, literally just replace Eastern Orthodoxy with Protestantism. My girlfriend is Roman Catholic and I have been a faithful Evengelical Protestant my whole life until I really started to learn more about Catholicism on my own and realized how true it seems...Please pray for me in this period of discernment and if I should go to RCIA.
Definitely seeing more and more people (protestants / atheists) considering either Orthodoxy or Catholicism. These discussions are needed! Regardless, happy to see tradition coming to the forefront again.
@Mitchell Howell as someone considering Catholicism/Orthodoxy, it was a huge desire for reverence and seriousness. In my experience, I find that best in high church traditions
@@magiccitymelkite6161 Biblical Christianity does not include; Purgatory cerca 1563 Council of Trent Session 22, The Immaculate Conception cerca 1854 Pope Pius IX, Papal infallibility 1870, The Assumption of Mary cerca 1950 Pope Pius XII. Today’s Roman Catholic Church is 70 years old.
I recently heard Jimmy Akin give a caller this advice about becoming Catholic. Jimmy basically said "You dont have to believe every Catholic doctrine before you become Catholic. What you do need to do is to discern to the point where you can say, "I trust the most important doctrines," and then you take a leap of faith!"
I can only pray that Derek will respond to God's grace in his discernment. I can see from the interview how much pain he is in and how easily we can forget how difficult this process is, conversion is always painful no matter where we are in our own conversions.
Timestamps: 13:14 Polar bear joke 14:24 Update about early access 14:48 Patreon subscribers get access to post-show Q&A 15:04 Exodus90 program from men and official start date 16:15 Introduction of Derek 17:09 Scope of the discussion 17:54 Derek’s Christian and Musical background 24:48 Enrolls in Seminary 26:45 Wasn’t yet baptized and studying Acts 16:25-40 let to Derek’s baptism 27:14 Find’s a Church community 27:24 Non-recommended book 27:27 Start of Youth Pastor (has MA in Theological studies) 28:00 No ordination ceremony in non-denominational church (only certificate) 28:40 What it was like being a youth pastor 29:21 What was his opinion on Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians then 31:20 Lectio Divina 32:19 Protestant version of Eucharistic adoration 34:42 Ordinances 34:56 Why he left being a youth Pastor 36:54 Step-dads offhand comment about “we’re gonna make a Catholic out of you yet” 37:33 Fr. Boniface Hicks becomes Derek’s spiritual director (and still is 4 years later) 40:12 Holiness and preaching without words 42:34 Finding out about Greek Orthodoxy 43:06 Book ‘becoming orthodox by Fr. Peter Gillquist’ 44:14 What did his wife (Becca) think of his resigning? 44:55 What was it like for his finances? 46:24 How did Derek hear about Matt Fradd? 53:46 Why does he oscillate between Eastern Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy? 54:52 What is western Orthodoxy? 58:21 Why not become Orthodox? 1:01:24 The starting point 1:03:14 The weaknesses on both sides 1:04:01 Catholic church and charity 1:06:14 One bishop per city 1:07:19 Religious group heydays 1:11:03 Similarities between Orthodoxy and Catholicism 1:13:11 Orthodox as Protestants who have the fathers and traditional liturgy? 1:14:33 Bouncing around between liberal and conservative parishes 1:17:09 Bending over backwards and stability 1:19:05 Matt Fradd’s sum up of where Derek’s at 1:21:33 Communion of Christians 1:22:40 Ultimate authority 1:24:50 Overbinding and Personal Responsibility 1:29:32 What Unity looks like in Orthodoxy (the focus on consistency) 1:31:48 Doctrinal development 1:37:16 Missionary activity 1:38:56 Feeling of being unsettled 1:46:15 Biting the bullet 1:49:26 Considerations of Family 1:51:01 Motives of Conversion (Membership vs Salvation) 1:56:00 The need for certainty in a chaotic society 1:58:31 Psychoanalysing everybody 1:59:24 Christlikeness 2:01:03 Break(music) 2:03:56 Hallow App for prayer and meditation (free month trial) 2:07:41 Caution about predictions 2:11:57 New internet rule 2:12:50 Show wrap up
Wow, this interview really hit home. I've been attending an Antiochan eastern Orthodox church off and on for 7 months now and it's 2 hours away from where I live ( the nearest Orthodox church to us). Ive been to every Catholic church in my area, 5 of them, and all of them have seemed deeply apathetic and even liturgically sad and lacking. I can't bring myself to attend Catholic church anymore and the Orthodox parish I've been attending has been the only parish to reach out and care. They've even recently started a mission church in my area once a month to make it that much more accessible for our community 2 hours south of where they're located. I don't know. I see the attraction to Catholicism because it's where I was born and raised and it's extremely accesible even in rural area like mine, but do me personally Orthodoxy has brought me more fulfillment than the Catholic church ever has not to mention the doctrine( philioque, papacy, differences in sacraments, etc.) just doesn't add up to me.
@@SteveC-Aus Fair point, thank you for your comment. I think both. An emotional response shouldn't take first priority in what you're seeking, but I don't believe it should be written off either. I think where there is truth there is and should be an emotional pull. I have emotional ties to the Catholic church as well; it's where my faith was formed and where my grandmother brought me up dutifully. To be honest I love both churches and I am still having a hard time discerning where I should land. I love the Lord above all else and I just want to find a flock and a home where I can praise and worship Him reverently. Not super easy to come by in the very rural area I live.
@@ambdubs I've been going to an Antiochian Orthodox Church as well for about 8-9 months, and am very close to becoming a catechumen. Even talked to the priest about it. My girlfriend is in the same position. But with the recent stuff in Eastern Europe, a general recognition that Catholicism seems so capable of mobilizing for God, some doctrinal stuff, some attitudes I've seen, and some other stuff, I'm very torn. While I don't want whichever is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church to budge on core doctrines, there seems to be a lot that they can learn from one another, and even from Protestantism (I correspond with a Pentecostal Protestant who runs a church and two orphanages in Kenya and fasts 3 days every week---like a hard fast). It would be nice if the world weren't so broken.
As a Catholic I’ve experienced the same wasteland before and have driven out of my way to attend Mass that didn’t leave me wondering which parts were illicit. Is there not another Catholic church or Catholic rite church like Maronite or Byzantine closer to you?
Hi Mr. Fradd, I must say what a huge blessing this channel has been not only to my life as a Roman Catholic but to all your listeners. I just want to thank you for your effort and pure heart. May God bless you and continue to strengthen the good work he has begun in you. Prayers for you and your family :)
I really feel for my brother Derek here. My heart breaks for him. You can see clearly that he has a beautiful, vulnerable heart of gold to give to Our Lord. His faith-filled obsession to find the Truth - and the True Church - for himself, and for his family, is so admirable and inspiring. I will pray for him to find his answer. Thank you for hosting such a beautiful guest, Matt. Keep ‘em comin’ brother 👊🏻
I think I'm just at the start of this journey with my own faith. Moving to a new part of the country and seeing the protestant churches here have made me question protestantism and move toward orthodoxy/catholicism. This all led me to the church fathers and now I'm really at a crossroads. If you all don't mind, I'd appreciate your prayers for my wife and I in this journey. Thanks all
I love that he said "I have to be partially broken hearted when I enter whichever one I enter" I know exactly what he means! Derek, please know you're not alone in that feeling. Whichever way you go, please pray for unity so that we may be one.
I’m glad this topic has been discussed since I’m a convert from Orthodox to Catholic but do miss the Orthodox liturgies. And now I’m curious to check Eastern Catholic and see how that goes. Matt, got to do this again. This is great discussion!
What a wonderful discussion. I had a very similar (and continue to have) a very similar experience as Derek, with the distinction that I remain convinced on the primacy of Rome-it does really come down to that, doesn’t it? I’m very attracted to the eastern liturgy and even attended a Melkite parish with my family for a period. We have now found a Latin rite parish that celebrates (and please God will continue to celebrate) the Novus Ordo beautifully, and we are ecstatic about it. I remain fairly put off by much of the sentimentality of the baroque and popular devotion in the West in the past few centuries, but those things are not essential to the faith. I sense that the Latin church is rediscovering the value of mystery and symbolism that the East has held firm to. At the end of the day, for the average lay person, the historical question of Roman primacy is essentially unanswerable, and so I would completely respect someone becoming Orthodox if conscience dictates it. I only pray that we continue the trend of the past century or so of reconciling the theological traditions of the two lungs of the Church. In my estimation, there really aren’t any insurmountable differences.
They certainly shouldn't be. It seems the church has done an excellent job of defending the "truth" to the point that the essence of the Truth is forgotten. I think many protestants should be lumped into this discussion as well. Stylistic preferences, minor doctrinal disagreements, and certainly dogmas shouldn't usurp the Spirit that truly joins all of us as one Body. Perhaps the most saddening portion of the interview is that Derek is stuck choosing between the "type" of Christian he wants to be. I feel as though The Apostles would truly despise the "team picking" aspect of modern Christianity. Where did we get off determining who is the "true church" and other Spirit-filled, Christ-imitating Believers remain "far from home." It's gross.
Just got confirmation this year Roman Catholic never been better in life or in relationships after being able to receive and be open to Jesus in the Eucharist and I would never want to say that a year ago but so true and so thankful our Lord called me back home my parish is amazing only thing wrong with it is me and my sins I bring and need Gods help with
Matt been watching your channel for a couple years or more now, yet recently was Chrismated Orthodox. I have to give it to you for modeling such a gracious conversation. Thank you & god bless!
Westerners look at the East and larp sometimes. It's really not much more than thinking the grass is greener on the other side, as a novelty if you will....but they're incorrect. The Catholic Church is the perfect universal solution of West and East, thanks be to God. Become Catholic and adopt Eastern devotions if you wish, it's 100% okay. Join one of the Eastern Orthodox churches and you lose 1000 years of some of the greatest theological minds in history. I mean, for instance, they view Aquinas as a heretic. A bit ironic, I know.
@Super Mario Margaret Mary Alacoque did practice self mutilation and eat the feces of a dysentery patient on one occasion. That part isn't slander. Such things seem so beyond the pale of Christian devotional praxis that I couldn't blame anyone for suspecting demonic influence.
@Super Mario there is a definite difference between the self-denial that is practiced in the early church and the deliberate self-harm practiced by post-schism western saints. I did not say she was demonic. I, nor you, have any idea of what was in her heart. I just stated that her personal devotions were so extreme and bizarre that the suspicion is justified. I won't read her autobiography, because I am Orthodox and I don't make enough time to read the lives of our own saints. But those anecdotes are easily verified if you are skeptical enough to search for them.
@Super Mario it is a question of intention and what exactly we are struggling against. Remember that ascesis means exercise. Self-denial and struggling against the passions is indeed different than literally carving your flesh. Even St. Simeon returning the maggot to his wound is different from taking a blade or a scourge to yourself. If I had to venture a guess, I would presume that to the medieval and Renaissance Roman Catholic mind, the passions and the flesh are conflated, and this is why we see begin to see such extreme instances of self-mutilation in the post-schism West. St Symeon chaining himself to a pillar, or St Macarius living in a swamp despite the conditions, are not the same as Margaret Mary carving herself or eating feces. These anecdotes are not unsubstantiated. They are in her autobiography, and you could easily find them with a simple Google search.
@Super Mario My friend, you are the one defending strawmen I have never attacked and using ad hominems. I have pointed you to her autobiography, which you apparently have, and contains all the stories of her self-mutilating and eating feces and vomit. This is not slander; these are her own claims. It is important to remember that the word "repent", which Christ commands, which the Roman Catholic Church has erroneously translated as "do penance" actually means "change your mind" (μετα- change νοειτε- your mind) i.e., to acquire the mind of Christ, as St. Paul puts it. If you believe that self-mutilation and eating feces are means of obeying this commandment, then more power to you I suppose. God bless you.
This was a really great discussion with Derek and very enjoyable to watch. I'm very grateful for this channel. It is such a blessing in my life. Also, I like the new intro music in combination with the old, and I love the outro music as well. The music by Emma Fradd is really inspiring and uplifting.
In my struggle I came to the conclusion that I don’t have to know everything and I don’t have to understand everything. God doesn’t need that from me. It just takes the pressure off.
Thanks so much Matt for having this kind of interview (as well as all your interviews)! I find myself on the shores of the Tiber as well but for many reasons am not quite ready to cross. 95% of those reasons lie within the questions that Derek had of community and who will take care of us? I know these are not reasons enough but they are huge for some of us that come from strong Christian communities and yet feel the pull of the fullness in being Catholic. Thank you Derek for your honesty and vulnerability... It was a refreshing cup of cold water along this journey. Sheree
This was a really great conversation. I loved how y'all were tackling so many issues honestly that are easy for people to gloss over. About the contrast between Catholicism and Orthodoxy in terms of how defined doctrine is. I do think there is a problem on that front in the current life of the Catholic Church, and I think Brian Holdsworth dealt with it well recently. On the Orthodox side, there is something appealing about being less tied down. Yet the Orthodox (like Catholics) make strong claims along the lines of "look at the early church--whom do you recognize?" But when we do look at the earlier church, we see a great deal of obsession about doctrinal precision, and mobs in the streets being concerned about it on one side of a heresy or another. What's more, the East was more into that than the West. Now, the point is also worth making that too much focus on definitions also caused charity to wax cold. The point I mean to make in all of this is that over-defining vs. being laid-back is not a very meaningful dualism. In this realm, every side can learn the wisdom of In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas. And when it comes to the necessary, the question is "who decides what is necessary? (and how?)"
This business about Eastern Orthodoxy being vague and undefined is silly. And for some reason it's always the Orthodox who are saying this as some kind of selling point vs Catholicism. I can't take that line of argumentation seriously because the first 7 ecumenical councils were very specific and precise, and the Fathers are very specific and precise. So Orthodox should stop using that line of reasoning because it indicates that they are not the very precise and specific Church of the first millennium, but some squishy thing.
Just before the 2hr mark he mentions about being more Christ-like. If you want to imitate Christ, talk with His Mother and love her as He did. I’m sure she will help with your discernment.
Dude, I love the term he coined: Paschal’s ecclesiastical wager. Perfect! I often give this same type of rationale to Catholics about their view of the validity of Orthodox sacraments and Holy Orders. Great show!
@@joedwyer3297 They do view the Orthodox sacraments as valid. Hence the “paschal’s wager” reference. If one chooses Orthodoxy over Catholicism and it turns out that Catholicism is the TRUE church, then the one who converted to Orthodoxy need not worry. According to the Catholic Church all that is necessary for salvation is within the Orthodox Church.
Also, the Orthodox Greeks and Russians have only been divided since 2017 and is mainly over political issues over the Church in Ukraine. Which is very recent.
The history of the Church is packed with small schisms like this. The Rome-Antioch schism of the 300s is a good example, where St. Meletius of Antioch (who was out of communion with Rome at the time) presided over the 2nd Ecumenical Council. This would be impossible within modern RC ecclesiology (where being out of communion with Rome immediately means being in error), but has always been possible within Orthodox ecclesiology.
I’d recommend everyone interested in history to read Fr Aidan Nichol’s “Rome and the Eastern Churches”. He is a British Dominican priest and academic who ignited the beginnings of academic career writing about Russian spirituality, specially Bulgakov. So he definitely knows his stuff. He’s written about Byzantine spirituality and St Maximus the Confessor too. The book is great as far as history goes and presents the theological reasonings of every side of the division processes (of the apostolic churches) and the current state of relationship between them and the Catholic Church. And it deals with them pretty fairly and in a balanced way. Oh, and it refers not only to the split in 1054 but also the Assyrian Church of the East’s split in 431 and the Oriental Orthodoxy’s split in 451. God bless you all!
I'd recommend Michael Whelton's Two Paths for an introductory text to anyone interested in Orthodoxy vs RCism. It focuses on historical developments in both the 1st and 2nd Millenniums.
Perhaps add: Russia and the Universal Church, and maybe the Early Papacy by Adrian Fortescue? TH-cam channel: Reason & Theology for engaging Eastern Orthodoxy. The TH-cam video: Vatican I in the First millennium.
I'm going through the same thing. Two children. Wife isn't interested in Orthodoxy. Would be far easier to be Roman Catholic and have much less friction in the family. More options , more opportunities for my children, more available resources. I just keep looking East and tend to follow that mindset much more. Torn.
You know what's true 😉. It's not the "unchanging apostolic faith" of popes going to mosques and praying towards Mecca, and encouraging their followers to do likewise in the name of "ecumenism".
This is excellent. We are in a similar situation. We live in a rural area that is basically a high church desert. The nearest reverent mass is 2 hours away and the nearest EO is 2 hours away. We have 4 very young kids. Pray for us please.
May God continue to lead and bless you and your family, Mr Cummins. Thank you for sharing your story and remember...we all are on a journey with our Lord that is eternal. We will never ‘arrive’ while in this life. That the Orthodox Church Baptizes and Chrismates even wee babes helps us to perceive this reality. Also, when Christ called his disciples, the men who responded were simple ones with open hearts. You have answered His call, which is the most important thing. He will make plain to your heart which path to take...through the still-small voice of the Holy Spirit. You may always feel a pull between the Eastern and Western arms of the Church, as I do after almost thirty-six years of being Orthodox. Yet, our ecclesiology offers a more stable and secure home for followers of Christ during these tumultuous times (imho). May our Lord bring you and your wife peace as you continue to travel His Way. He will use this period of discernment to draw you ever-nearer to Him and to prepare you as a worker in His Kingdom. Praying for you all 🙏🏼
Only 30 minutes through, and I want to cry right now this is so close to me. I attend a non-denominational church and the conversations/meetings they have there are eerily similar to what Derek is saying here. I really wish I could attend some sort of Mass or Orthodox service at some point
Russia and universal church, is a great read about the eastern orthodox history and their errors thru history. Solovyov was an EO, who came into union with Rome. He is considered almost like St. Thomas aquinas of the east in philosophy. Plus, youtube channels like Reason and theology and The meaning of catholic have great context on EO.
@@cjgumbert post your sources. If not no cares of your made of stories. Solovyovs work speaks for itself. That how we know you have no idea what you are talking about.
@@TheEdzy25 tell that to Solovyov. Also, Cornelius statement isnt even remotely controversial. Solovyov being an occultist and kabbalist is rather basic info. Him being the Aquinas of the East is the most cracked out statement I have ever heard. You must only be familiar with portions of his writings on Church matters.
I must say, I really appreciate your videos and charitable heart, Matt. I really look up to you and feel a real brotherly connection to you in a way that I don’t to most of my Protestant brothers and sisters (Confessional Lutheran here). I often lament the lack of historical continuity or even awareness of actual Christian Orthodoxy on our side of this unfortunate chasm between us. I especially mourn the fact that the Holy Sacraments are not enjoyed or hardly even known among most Protestants. I have also felt this attraction to my Church family in Rome, but in my study, I just can’t find myself convinced that it’s fully true. That said, dearest brother, I want to encourage you and thank you for your charity and gentleness and patience and humility toward all you have on your show. I love to consume your material and learn much about God’s love from you. Peace be with you, dear friend.
I feel for this guy as I've been where he was in this, and still am in some ways. The reality is that this kind of discernment can go on for a lifetime, as there isn't any kind of light at the end of the tunnel for those that are looking to join a church that presents Truth and also is a good fit on a more practical, on the ground level. Sometimes, the best option is to find where God is leading you and take up your cross and follow Him, even if you end up somewhere that isn't a perfect fit.
It was the Portuguese that took Latin Catholicism to India in the 15th century. Although they were originally evangelized by St.Thomas the apostle according to tradition.
I grew up Catholic, converted to Seventh Day Adventism, then became agnostic almost falling into New Age. Now I'm bouncing around watching Catholics like Bishop Barron, Orthodox like Jonathan Pageau, and listening to Protestant apologetics like Cross Examined and Mike Winger. There so much great stuff to learn about but at the end I feel like it narrows down to cultural norms, traditions, political views, family history, theological doctrines, nationality, etc. And I'm saying this as a guy who has lived abroad, comes from an immigrant background, and is married to a woman of a different race and background. So I understand the difficulty of seeking the truth and for those who are strict on their views about their theological affiliation, please understand things aren't simply black and white, as I have learned through my readings of Paul and reading a bit of Jordan Peterson's work. At the end, my focus is Jesus and finding ways to praise Him through my works.
God bless you Derek! In joining the Orthodox Catechumenate from Evangelicalism I've gone from absolutely disregarded anything Roman Catholic as heretical and pagan to something that I can respect (even deeply) even if I ultimately don't believe in it. Dogma and doctrine absolutely matter but I'm scared of becoming a rigid, proud, jerk. Akriveia with love, tears and humility moves one to genuine repentance and that's who I want to be. God bless you!
I was in a similar position as Derek, but became Catholic a year ago instead of Orthodox because I needed to be able to receive the Eucharist, amongst some other reasons. But I share his difficulties with Mariology. Certain teachings I can logically accept, but some just never made enough sense that I could accept them using some logical reasoning to determine if they were true. And when you're coming from a protestant background, it's a different culture. As a protestant, I didn't dislike Mary, but some Catholics make Marian veneration seem so bizarre. Ultimately it came down to accepting the church's teaching as an act of faith, so that I could move forward, but I still struggle with that.
You know the Church recognised the validity of the sacraments in EO Churches? So they also have the Eucharist. But I am also a convert to Catholicism, so I'm glad you're home!
Fascinating discussion. And hard as the experience itself is, I love that Derek is not taking anything as obvious, but taking all of his struggles seriously. I'm reminded of something a friend said to always keep in mind: "Where have we seen Christ? For that is where we need to go." I pray for you and your family in this journey of faith.
I was baptized, confirmed, first communion as a baby via Greek Orthodox. I converted to Roman Catholic at 22 yo. All the sacraments I had received counted so I was simply blessed and formally received Catholic...which was still very powerful. But when I had my son I delved into WHAT AND WHY the sacraments are administered at different ages...so I took my son to the BYZANTINE Church...under PAPAL umbrella BUT my kid was confirmed at 5 yo....for almost 2000 years confirmation came BEFORE first communion in the RC rite...then they moved 1st communion earlier and FORGOT?! about confirmation in 1950s... 8th grade is TOO OLD for confirmation in these end times...kids are sooo worldly already.
This is a very interesting conversation. I am from Pittsburgh, live in Ohio, spend a lot of time in Steubenville, Burgettstown. I HAVE A Roman Catholic Priest cousin who is blind and retired. He lives in McKees Rocks, and he accidentally went to the Orthodox Church there instead of the Eastern Catholic Church. Hilarious really. Anyway, my office is in Elwood City. I spent 2 years as an Orthodox Catechumen before swimming the Tiber. I consider myself an Eastern Catholic that belongs to a Latin Parish. In other words, I feel this gentleman's dilemma. God Bless!
Beautiful testimony. It wouldn’t be a fully informative decision until he attends the Latin Mass at a traditional Catholic parish. The Latin mass represents the Catholic Faith. Hopefully a FSSP, SSPX or another traditional parish is within driving distance to him. This would allow him to experience the Catholic Faith the way it was before the recent changes. May God Bless him and thank you for sharing this conversation
Aside from Derek's wariness of Mariology in the month of May, not much discussion about Mary. Fatima? Lourdes? Guadalupe? EO has possibly the undeveloped theological basic tenets about Mary, but it is definitely more focused in the RC church. This is precisely why unification would be so wonderful. I've also looked into Orthodoxy, but to join I'd have to renounce so many aspects of Catholicism, and be rebaptized? What? RC is heretical? Come on. Even between some battling EO churches, you'd have to be rebaptized to join another. While both RC and EO have Christ, the basic necessity, Orthodoxy just isn't enough.
Where did you hear you have to be rebaptised for joining a different EO jurisdiction? Are you maybe confusing us with the Oriental Orthodox (Armenian, Coptic, etc), because they split from both us and Rome in 451. But yes, to us Rome is heretical, it confesses a different Creed, doesn't commune children, teaches a different doctrine of salvation, teaches that we cannot participate in the Uncreated Energies of God (His Grace, Love, Glory, etc) only in created effects, teaches a different doctrine of Original sin, etc. So, you can believe we're wrong and you're right, but not that we teach the same theology. That's why there cannot be unification, only conversion.
@@user-ii3zs2gr6u It also teaches a very dangerous and heretical papism which says one man in Rome has the authority, if he wants, to destroy 2000 years of authentic Christian traditions. This same man goes to mosques and prays with Muslims towards Mecca while encouraging his followers to do the same in the name of "ecumenism", and we're supposed to "submit" to him if we want to be apart of the "unchanging apostolic faith".
These apparitions are not doctrines of Faith but private revelations. I think the orthodox church has been very prudent with regards to private revelations and it is us that went overboard with them.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 17:11 🎙️ *Derek Cummins shares his journey of discernment between Catholicism and Orthodoxy with Matt Fradd.* 22:06 🤔 *Derek recounts a challenging tour experience with his metal band, leading to moments of prayer and a shift in his perspective on faith.* 26:08 🎸 *Derek describes transitioning from a non-devout lifestyle to enrolling in seminary, influenced by his band's experiences and spiritual reflections.* 28:00 👐 *Becoming a youth pastor was the most fulfilling vocational experience for Derek, emphasizing the unique openness and spirituality of teenagers.* 30:02 🙏 *Derek integrates Catholic and Ignatian spiritual practices into his youth ministry, fostering meaningful experiences for the students.* 31:55 🤔 *Explored Protestant-style Eucharistic Adoration during a retreat, introducing elements like Last Supper icon and reflecting on communion, finding surprising positive response from participants.* 33:47 📖 *Studied Nicene Creed in college-age ministry, faced resistance when discussing sacramental aspects, and eventually got advised to avoid sacramental topics like baptism, challenging the church's perspective.* 39:27 🏛️ *Raised concerns about the church focusing too much on comfort, technology, and lacking a sense of holiness. Questioned the impact of the church environment on people's spiritual experience.* 43:52 💔 *Resigned from the position as a youth pastor after expressing belief in sacramental aspects like baptism and the real presence in the Eucharist, which conflicted with the church's stance. Faced challenges during the transition.* 48:06 🤝 *Explored Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism, attended liturgies, and encountered welcoming priests like Father Jason from Holy Trinity Ukrainian Greco-Catholic Church, which played a role in his spiritual journey.* 52:05 🌐 *Exploring Byzantine Catholicism: The speaker shares his journey from discovering Byzantine Catholicism to engaging with key figures in the community.* 54:10 🤔 *Divergence in Discernment: Discusses the perceived differences between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, emphasizing the challenge of choosing between the two paths.* 55:06 🕍 *Western Orthodoxy: Explores the concept of Western Orthodoxy within the Antiochian and Russian Orthodox Churches, highlighting attempts to revive ancient practices.* 58:35 💒 *Easier Path to Catholicism: Expresses that embracing Catholicism might be more convenient socially, economically, and liturgically, presenting a pragmatic perspective.* 01:03:52 🍇 *Fruits of Faith: Considers the importance of actions and charitable deeds in addition to doctrinal correctness, weighing the appeal of Catholicism's engagement in charitable works.* 01:13:19 🤔 *Orthodox may be viewed by some Catholics as having similarities to Protestants in their approach to the Fathers and liturgy.* 01:14:02 🇷🇺 *Catholics wonder about Orthodox priests holding differing views on issues (e.g., contraception) and whether they leave their communion.* 01:14:44 🔄 *People in both Catholicism and Orthodoxy sometimes switch parishes based on ideological differences but remain within the same communion.* 01:15:26 🌐 *Historical instances show periods where particular churches in Orthodoxy were out of communion with each other, reflecting a flexible ecclesiology.* 01:18:29 🛤️ *The flexibility and mystery in Orthodoxy appeal to some, while concerns in Catholicism include excessive doctrinal definition and liturgical innovation.* 01:33:44 🕊️ *The discussion involves exploring passages, like Paul's exhortation to hold fast to traditions, emphasizing unity in Eucharistic communion despite theological variations in Catholicism.* 01:35:52 🛐 *The conversation delves into the significance of liturgy, drawing parallels between Eastern and Western expressions, and discussing the impact of missionary approaches on cultural adaptation.* 01:37:18 🌐 *The discussion touches on the potential openness to the Latin Mass and contrasts Western and Eastern missionary methods, pondering the imposition of customs versus cultural integration.* 01:39:56 🤔 *The guest expresses the ongoing struggle of indecision, influenced by a desire to discern God's will, potentialmissionary calls, and the tension between reason and faith.* 01:46:28 💔 *Personal experiences are shared, revealing instances of almost joining Orthodoxy, with family considerations impacting decisions and highlighting the challenges of doctrinal purity versus familial unity.* 01:53:31 🤔 *Discerning between Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy is compared to discerning marriage, emphasizing the challenge of choosing a spiritual home.* 01:54:26 🏡 *The idea of "coming home" to Catholicism or Orthodoxy is discussed, highlighting the emotional impact and the challenge of discerning objective truth amid personal desires.* 01:55:21 😕 *The challenge of discernment is complicated by the pressure to conform to specific theological beliefs within a religious community.* 01:56:32 🌐 *The conversation delves into the desire for certainty in a chaotic world, leading some individuals to embrace extreme positions within religious groups.* 01:57:01 💔 *The sacrifice involved in making a decision between Catholicism and Orthodoxy is discussed, acknowledging the potential heartbreak and challenges associated with choosing one path over another.*
I would dispute the discussion on Indian Catholicism. The Malabar rites have a lot of influence from Syriac rites, so they took on significant external influence regardless. Also, there are many Indian Catholics who were converted and had nothing in common with the pre-existing St Thomas Christians, and may have even been more resistant to that due to regional rivalries.
Good talk but I feel the idea he and a lot of EOs have that the east has never changed it’s liturgy is just historically false. Theres enduring schisms over those changes. It’s been massively shortened over time. Obviously Latins have the bigger problem here but acting like the DL hasn’t ever changed and won’t ever change is just laughable
1:02:00 Important reminder that the Talmud & modern judaism descended from the pharisees, not from Jesus or the Israelites. The old covenant has been finished, do not seek salvation there.
Great interview with Derek, really feel he should have become orthodox, but I'm a bit biased there as an orthodox catechumen. I have more of an appreciation for eastern Catholics now I think they'll play an important part in terms of uniting the two churches and being the glue to accomplish that when the catholic church finally decides to make a quite few concessions (don't get me wrong theres probably one or two concessions the orthodox may need to make as well, but more so Catholics)
I wanted to say Thank you for having this discussion . It is hard to explain yourself especially when your still on a journey . It was so helpful to hear an HONEST person talk about the struggles in his choices . I loved some of his explanation of eastern thought. I attend a Latin parish of Fraternity of St. Peter where I find the teaching of the Fathers , a beautiful meditative unitive liturgy , and somewhere I can raise my children.
Great discussion. Both churches are authentic. Each has the sacraments, is apostolic, an instrument of salvation, etc. Each also has its own unique characteristics, flaws, and even errors. It is ultimately a matter of choosing the one (whether it is Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or other) that will help you draw closer to Jesus Christ.
Hi Derek, I'm probably miss quoting you but early in the talk you said something like, how do I know this is true. I was raised Roman Catholic, various Catholic schools, Alter Boy, etc. But when I was approached for confirmation. I just couldn't in good faith commit. Many churches... I'm 63 and still struggle with who has the truth. I have a very strong relationship with our Lord. And rest OUTSIDE of the passage (I never knew you). Matt, I stumbled on your program about a month ago. Love it! Long form, is my morning program as I get ready for my day. Keep it polite, respectful, inteligent, and diversified! God Bless!
I'm a protestant who has been looking at Orthodoxy for more than a year now. Only recently have I given the Catholic Church a 'look'. I also struggle more with Papal Infallibility and some of the 'liberal' things I see. It does seem that many in both Orthodoxy and in Catholicism seem to push protestants away who are truly seeking the truth. In some of the groups I read on Facebook for instance (read more than participate) they (especially the Orthodox??) seem to have some who seem very arrogant. I know any group has some folks like that but they sure would attract more folks by being loving. Anyways, excellent video, my struggles are very similar.....
I was baptised CofE, but my grandmother was greek orthodox and my partner comes from a strong roman catholic portuguese home, and ive been struggling to know which path to go down!
If God gave dreams and instincts and angelic voices to the Hebrew people and the early Christians, why would that stop? Why would God stop using our imaginations? God gave us dreams and ideas and inspirations as part of our humanity. Surely, He also uses those senses to communicate with him us. Even scripture says to test the spirit. It doesn't say "any imaginating is demons." I'm confused. In one sentence we say the East is full of mystery (which I love.) Then, the next sentence, "renounce your imagination." Part of my return to the Faith was visions. St. Jeanne D'Arc level visions. I may not have come back without Jesus and Mary and Magdalene literally speaking to me directly. Without being visited by dead loved ones. I've seen darkness too, during my pagan phase. I know the difference.
Hey Matt, I live in Sweden, but if you're willing to pay for plane tickets, accommodation and food, I'd be happy to come over to laugh at your jokes any time you're recording a video. ;) God bless you guys, and thank you for your work. You truly make a difference!
Derek you hit the nail on the head, the whole purpose of faith in Christ is to become, people can waste their whole life on doctrines and rituals and liturgies or anything else for that matter, but fail to walk the path to become perfect in love, love is a living spirit, and it is to become this living spirit, where your treasure is your heart will be also, if you have your heart on what is perishable when it pushes so does your heart, you must examine your heart and recognise what it is attached to, that is, the things of this world, what if you throw everything away and start from the beginning, and stop seeking what you are seeking and seek the kingdom within you, to be full of the Holy Spirit, and not full of desires and passions of the things that this world, even if you are attached to your wife and children then you must recognise this and become unattached within yourself, it is written, if you are married you should live as though you are not, have a look at the pain and suffering you will feel within yourself if you were to perceive that your wife and children were no more, if you find suffering in your heart then you are attached to them, and if this is the case, the love of the Christ is not in you, this is why Paul said it is good for a man to marry but it is better for him not to, because of the danger of having your heart attached to them, to be transformed into the image of the Christ, is self-annihilation so that the only thing that remains within you is the light of the living god, seek within and you will find it, but if you continue to seek what you are seeking that is, outside yourself, then you will never find it, understand this, to be transformed into the image of the Christ is to become perfect in love, to be full of light and no other thing.
I'm Catholic in 2024 and I love the Church, but I have utter contempt and rage towards the leadership, especially the "pope" If you want to follow Christ and His teachings, you can not support killing innocent humans inside of the womb,nor sexual degenerate behavior. Only demons would attack the truth and those who speak it. God Bless Archbishop Vigano.
im in this similar position now. my fiancee and all my closest friends are evangelical charismatic and I find myself hungry to become Orthodox. but I dont want to sacrifice my future spouse or my fellowship. I wish I could just take them all with me.
I needed to hear this I just recently come back to the church but have been having a desire to go to a “young hip” church. I think I’ll stay rooted in tradition.
I honestly don't understand the difference between Orthodox and Roman Catholicism. The Pope of course, the rest seems like splitting hairs. As far as I can tell, the Orthodox don't experience eucharistic miracles. Their explanation is that a Eucharistic Miracle is because of unbelief so that they don't publicize them. This is true but the cynic in me sees this as a bit of cope.
In my view, many Orthodox suffer from a minority identity complex. Since they're in a minority status in the West they seem to overcompensate. They seem to have a fanatical, almost Jewish obsession with "purity." It's a very proud and uncharitable attitude. Not saying that this is what they're like IRL, but definitely online, this attitude is prevalent. Also not saying the Trad Caths aren't like that either (they are). But it seems like the Trad Caths are most hostile to liberal wings of the Catholic Church, not hostile to people OUTSIDE the Church. I think Derek is right when he says that there is a distinctly unwelcoming vibe in Orthodox communities.
I feel for you brother but persevere in earnest and you will be called home. I spent 20 years in the dark and then received clarity and direction. Peace!
Being an Orthodox Christian, born and raised in Serbia, and being a Serbian patriot to boot, I am sorry to say that lots of my compatriots are Serbian first and Christian second. The one explanation I could give of this from a historical perspective is that, without the Serbian Orthodox Church, I would be speaking Turkish or German instead of Serbian. The Church really did play an immensely important role in preserving our language, culture and Christian faith, all true markers of our national identity, through centuries of Ottoman and Habsburg domination... Other than this - great talk - THANK YOU!
I really relate to this interview in many ways, been looking into both RCC and EO on and off for some time and the biggest reason why i don't go all in is because my wife and i are not on the same page in this regard. I know the local RC bishop and he has said to me in a conversation that i have a Catholic heart but as much as he wants me to join his flock he doesn't want it while my wife is in opposition so i am in a bit of an impasse. I would like to add that i do watch your channel regularly and this interview (and others) is the reason, the natural flow and accessibility for everyone regardless of church background and faith or lack there of.
I actually loved this conversation. Well done Matt. I'm Orthodox and I commend you for this. But I have to give a slight pushback on the part where you say that combating a certain heresy you have to be very specific and then it seems you think that Orthodoxy doesn't have this because we don't have a singular Pope to define it. First we Are very specific. Second the heresies that were counted for the first 1000 years were all squashed by no singular person but in councils and the Pope didn't decide the outcome and you know this. Thirdly I the essence and energies distinction is very specific and Christological and I'm sure it would take you no more than a day to see that. So why not make that a piece in of homework and actually dig into it and compare that to the very illogical and aristotelian version of Catholic divine simplicity. I'm pretty sure you will see that essence/energies teaches divine simplicity in God's triune nature and also how God can act in his energies outside his essence. Just like your actions are not part of your body (such as your thoughts which is an act) God's energies are not tied to his essence and thus avoiding the obvious contradiction of being slave to your actions. Try it brother and thanks for a great show.
This business about Eastern Orthodoxy being vague and undefined is silly. And for some reason it's always the Orthodox who are saying this as some kind of selling point vs Catholicism. I can't take that line of argumentation seriously because the first 7 ecumenical councils were very specific and precise, and the Fathers are very specific and precise. So Orthodox should stop using that line of reasoning because it indicates that they are not the very precise and specific Church of the first millennium, but some squishy thing.
It’s not always obvious is it? I’m Catholic but still get sucked in to the debate. The CC really helps though. When I read it I have faith I’m in the right spot.
Lateran Council 1 Canon 21: We absolutely forbid priests, deacons, subdeacons, and monks to have concubines or to contract marriage. Lateran Council 2 Canon 6: For since they should be and be called the temple of God, the vessel of the Lord, the abode of the Holy Spirit, it is *unbecoming* that they *indulge in marriage* and in *impurities.* 1 Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and *teachings of demons,* through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who *forbid marriage* 1 Corinthians 9:5 *Do we not have the right* to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? Canon 21 continued: We decree in accordance with the definitions of the sacred canons, that *marriages already contracted by such persons must be dissolved,* and that the persons be condemned to do penance. Matthew 19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate. Innocent III, 1204 "We destine specially to this, that the material sword may be sanctioned to supply the defect of the spiritual sword, and you, besides the temporal glory which you will attain from so pious and praiseworthy a work, may obtain that pardon for sins, which we grant as an indulgence for the remission of their sins, since we want those who faithfully shall have laboured against the heretics to rejoice in the same indulgence as we grant as an indulgence for those crossing the sea for the aid of the Holy Land." Lateran Council 4 Canon 3: Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and *to the best of their ability to exterminate* (pro viribus exterminare studebunt) in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church. _Ad extirpanda_ of Pope Innocent IV: We decree that the head of state [...] shall observe, both what is written herein, and other regulations and laws both ecclesiastical and civil, that are published against heretical wickedness. [...] No heretical man or woman may dwell, sojourn, or maintain a bare subsistence in the country, or any kind of jurisdiction or district belonging to it, whoever shall find the heretical man or woman shall boldly seize, with impunity, all his or their goods, and freely carry them off. [...] The head of state, or whatever ruler stands foremost in the public esteem, must cause the heretics who have been arrested in this manner to be taken to whatever jurisdiction the Diocesan, or his surrogate, is in, or whatever district, or city, or place the Diocesan bishop wishes to take them to. [...] *The head of state or ruler **_must force_** all the heretics whom he has in custody, provided he does so without killing them or breaking their arms or legs* to confess their errors and accuse other heretics whom they know.
I really enjoyed this discussion and learnt a lot about the orthodox church. We're in closer communion than I realised. I don't know if anyone has already explained the origins of the Syro Malabar rite in India, but they traced their roots to the Apostle Thomas, who went there. I expect that the Latin Rite came with much later European missionaries. It's not something I'd thought about before, as I thought Indian Catholics were mostly part of the Syro Malabar Church
A lot of what he is saying about the internal division of orthodoxy is what kept me from considering it as a live option for conversion when I was returning to Christianity. As someone who lives in North America with a family background in Western Europe it just seemed to me that that was no reasonable standard by which I could put myself under the authority of anyone but the local Catholic ordinary even if I were to grant all of the claims of Orthodoxy.
I really related to this; my journey has been similar. I was attending a Russian Orthodox church in Australia but have just moved to a Catholic country where there is no Orthodox presence. I was baptised Catholic, but am drawn to Orthodoxy. Catholicism is very much the easy answer for me, orthodoxy would mean practising my faith alone, and without the sacraments.
practicing faith alone and without sacraments is not following what Jesus said. you have some serious thinking to do while all the answers already are in the catholic church.
Very helpful talk I think; very relevant to me. Often times something feels off that I cannot receive all the Sacraments if I am in good standing and just intellectually agree with everything Catholics and Orthodox agree on. I understand why one would be careful in saying the Orthodox and Catholics are the same Church in the most important sense; yet, if it is true that they can or should be seen as such, then it is possibly one of the most influential misunderstandings of our time to say they are not one. I think the greatest lesson I learned from the book of Judges and Kings is that the kings of Israel were just as much as sinners as the judges of Israel. The Lord God was their King, and the prophet Samuel made this clear in the transition from the time of Judges to Kings. If it really comes down to the papacy and everything else can be understood through a valid explanation such as the examples Derek gave, then my thought is, does it really matter? I'm not affirming this, but questioning if its true. The 12 Judges in Gospels are bishops, bishops appeal to God, it just so happens that both Churches affirm there existed a sort of unity with Peter in the early Church, it just so happens Peter is a typological figure of a high priest, but the history is well disagreed on. If it is really all history, and the Lord God is our King, then what is the problem? Every time a Judge or King demonstrated faith in God, they were in the right.
Yoke yourself to Jesus Christ. Then drive over here to Wapakoneta, Ohio to witness beautiful Latin rite, Roman Catholic liturgy in our strikingly gorgeous churches and speak to Father Jedidiah. Belong to the Church that Christ founded and breath with both lungs.
This was me six years ago. I ended up becoming a Catholic, but the EO/Cath/Prot limbo is such a difficult place to be. God bless you brother. I will offer my prayers tonight for you.
thats where I am right now! somewhere between lutheran or EO or maybe just going back home to charismatic evangelicalism (God forbid.) please pray for me, brother. God bless
@@maxonmendel5757 Will do. May the Lord guide you into all Truth.
I'm in the same boat right now 😆 Please pray for me
@@jhonayo4887 Will do, God bless you.
@@stephenchelius7461 Thank you!
I love Derek and really appreciate his story. I'd rather he become Orthodox now and continue to explore his faith and maybe become Catholic someday than stay in limbo between the two and not receive the Sacraments. He's a good and righteous man, and God will lead him where he needs to be. I'll just keep praying that his final step will be towards Catholicism, and I'll keep embracing him as a brother in Christ in the mean time
Man, these Orthodox/Eastern Catholic conversations are intense but so important right now.
I'm in such a similar spot to Derek, literally just replace Eastern Orthodoxy with Protestantism. My girlfriend is Roman Catholic and I have been a faithful Evengelical Protestant my whole life until I really started to learn more about Catholicism on my own and realized how true it seems...Please pray for me in this period of discernment and if I should go to RCIA.
Go to an eastern catholic church or a latin mass. If you go to your average catholic parish with the new mass you'll be taught nonsense.
Hey Zane 2 years later I was just curious too see where you are at know?
Definitely seeing more and more people (protestants / atheists) considering either Orthodoxy or Catholicism. These discussions are needed! Regardless, happy to see tradition coming to the forefront again.
Sad to read a Christian would join the apostate roman catholic church, leaving true biblical Christianity to be roman. 😢
@Mitchell Howell as someone considering Catholicism/Orthodoxy, it was a huge desire for reverence and seriousness. In my experience, I find that best in high church traditions
@@timrosen1618 Biblical Christianity is Catholic. Apostate Romans worshipped Jupiter. Catholics and Orthodox Christians worship Jesus.
@@magiccitymelkite6161 Biblical Christianity does not include; Purgatory cerca 1563 Council of Trent Session 22, The Immaculate Conception cerca 1854 Pope Pius IX, Papal infallibility 1870, The Assumption of Mary cerca 1950 Pope Pius XII. Today’s Roman Catholic Church is 70 years old.
@@magiccitymelkite6161 The roman catholic church declared itself apostate when it declared the gospel of Christ to be anathema.
I recently heard Jimmy Akin give a caller this advice about becoming Catholic.
Jimmy basically said
"You dont have to believe every Catholic doctrine before you become Catholic.
What you do need to do is to discern to the point where you can say, "I trust the most important doctrines," and then you take a leap of faith!"
I remember that. It has helped me tremendously and have been thinking about it every day since then.
That was a good honest conversation. I struggled with many of the same concerns. Thanks for having it.
I can only pray that Derek will respond to God's grace in his discernment. I can see from the interview how much pain he is in and how easily we can forget how difficult this process is, conversion is always painful no matter where we are in our own conversions.
A lovely man. Perfectly honest and vulnerable.
Timestamps:
13:14 Polar bear joke
14:24 Update about early access
14:48 Patreon subscribers get access to post-show Q&A
15:04 Exodus90 program from men and official start date
16:15 Introduction of Derek
17:09 Scope of the discussion
17:54 Derek’s Christian and Musical background
24:48 Enrolls in Seminary
26:45 Wasn’t yet baptized and studying Acts 16:25-40 let to Derek’s baptism
27:14 Find’s a Church community
27:24 Non-recommended book
27:27 Start of Youth Pastor (has MA in Theological studies)
28:00 No ordination ceremony in non-denominational church (only certificate)
28:40 What it was like being a youth pastor
29:21 What was his opinion on Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians then
31:20 Lectio Divina
32:19 Protestant version of Eucharistic adoration
34:42 Ordinances
34:56 Why he left being a youth Pastor
36:54 Step-dads offhand comment about “we’re gonna make a Catholic out of you yet”
37:33 Fr. Boniface Hicks becomes Derek’s spiritual director (and still is 4 years later)
40:12 Holiness and preaching without words
42:34 Finding out about Greek Orthodoxy
43:06 Book ‘becoming orthodox by Fr. Peter Gillquist’
44:14 What did his wife (Becca) think of his resigning?
44:55 What was it like for his finances?
46:24 How did Derek hear about Matt Fradd?
53:46 Why does he oscillate between Eastern Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy?
54:52 What is western Orthodoxy?
58:21 Why not become Orthodox?
1:01:24 The starting point
1:03:14 The weaknesses on both sides
1:04:01 Catholic church and charity
1:06:14 One bishop per city
1:07:19 Religious group heydays
1:11:03 Similarities between Orthodoxy and Catholicism
1:13:11 Orthodox as Protestants who have the fathers and traditional liturgy?
1:14:33 Bouncing around between liberal and conservative parishes
1:17:09 Bending over backwards and stability
1:19:05 Matt Fradd’s sum up of where Derek’s at
1:21:33 Communion of Christians
1:22:40 Ultimate authority
1:24:50 Overbinding and Personal Responsibility
1:29:32 What Unity looks like in Orthodoxy (the focus on consistency)
1:31:48 Doctrinal development
1:37:16 Missionary activity
1:38:56 Feeling of being unsettled
1:46:15 Biting the bullet
1:49:26 Considerations of Family
1:51:01 Motives of Conversion (Membership vs Salvation)
1:56:00 The need for certainty in a chaotic society
1:58:31 Psychoanalysing everybody
1:59:24 Christlikeness
2:01:03 Break(music)
2:03:56 Hallow App for prayer and meditation (free month trial)
2:07:41 Caution about predictions
2:11:57 New internet rule
2:12:50 Show wrap up
Thanks for the breakdown! In RCIA btw! I went to Filipino Mass this morning.
Wow, this interview really hit home. I've been attending an Antiochan eastern Orthodox church off and on for 7 months now and it's 2 hours away from where I live ( the nearest Orthodox church to us). Ive been to every Catholic church in my area, 5 of them, and all of them have seemed deeply apathetic and even liturgically sad and lacking. I can't bring myself to attend Catholic church anymore and the Orthodox parish I've been attending has been the only parish to reach out and care. They've even recently started a mission church in my area once a month to make it that much more accessible for our community 2 hours south of where they're located. I don't know. I see the attraction to Catholicism because it's where I was born and raised and it's extremely accesible even in rural area like mine, but do me personally Orthodoxy has brought me more fulfillment than the Catholic church ever has not to mention the doctrine( philioque, papacy, differences in sacraments, etc.) just doesn't add up to me.
I understand your sentiment, but are you chasing an emotional experience or the truth?
@@SteveC-Aus Fair point, thank you for your comment. I think both. An emotional response shouldn't take first priority in what you're seeking, but I don't believe it should be written off either. I think where there is truth there is and should be an emotional pull. I have emotional ties to the Catholic church as well; it's where my faith was formed and where my grandmother brought me up dutifully. To be honest I love both churches and I am still having a hard time discerning where I should land. I love the Lord above all else and I just want to find a flock and a home where I can praise and worship Him reverently. Not super easy to come by in the very rural area I live.
@@ambdubs I've been going to an Antiochian Orthodox Church as well for about 8-9 months, and am very close to becoming a catechumen. Even talked to the priest about it. My girlfriend is in the same position. But with the recent stuff in Eastern Europe, a general recognition that Catholicism seems so capable of mobilizing for God, some doctrinal stuff, some attitudes I've seen, and some other stuff, I'm very torn. While I don't want whichever is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church to budge on core doctrines, there seems to be a lot that they can learn from one another, and even from Protestantism (I correspond with a Pentecostal Protestant who runs a church and two orphanages in Kenya and fasts 3 days every week---like a hard fast).
It would be nice if the world weren't so broken.
As a Catholic I’ve experienced the same wasteland before and have driven out of my way to attend Mass that didn’t leave me wondering which parts were illicit. Is there not another Catholic church or Catholic rite church like Maronite or Byzantine closer to you?
Hi Mr. Fradd, I must say what a huge blessing this channel has been not only to my life as a Roman Catholic but to all your listeners. I just want to thank you for your effort and pure heart. May God bless you and continue to strengthen the good work he has begun in you.
Prayers for you and your family :)
I really feel for my brother Derek here. My heart breaks for him. You can see clearly that he has a beautiful, vulnerable heart of gold to give to Our Lord. His faith-filled obsession to find the Truth - and the True Church - for himself, and for his family, is so admirable and inspiring. I will pray for him to find his answer.
Thank you for hosting such a beautiful guest, Matt. Keep ‘em comin’ brother 👊🏻
I think I'm just at the start of this journey with my own faith. Moving to a new part of the country and seeing the protestant churches here have made me question protestantism and move toward orthodoxy/catholicism. This all led me to the church fathers and now I'm really at a crossroads. If you all don't mind, I'd appreciate your prayers for my wife and I in this journey.
Thanks all
May God lead the two of you in the right direction - Orthodoxy has been my light...
I love that he said "I have to be partially broken hearted when I enter whichever one I enter" I know exactly what he means! Derek, please know you're not alone in that feeling. Whichever way you go, please pray for unity so that we may be one.
I’m glad this topic has been discussed since I’m a convert from Orthodox to Catholic but do miss the Orthodox liturgies. And now I’m curious to check Eastern Catholic and see how that goes. Matt, got to do this again. This is great discussion!
You should definitely consider joining the Byzantine Eastern Catholic Church🙏
What made you convert to Catholicism, if you don’t mind me asking?
What a wonderful discussion. I had a very similar (and continue to have) a very similar experience as Derek, with the distinction that I remain convinced on the primacy of Rome-it does really come down to that, doesn’t it? I’m very attracted to the eastern liturgy and even attended a Melkite parish with my family for a period. We have now found a Latin rite parish that celebrates (and please God will continue to celebrate) the Novus Ordo beautifully, and we are ecstatic about it. I remain fairly put off by much of the sentimentality of the baroque and popular devotion in the West in the past few centuries, but those things are not essential to the faith. I sense that the Latin church is rediscovering the value of mystery and symbolism that the East has held firm to.
At the end of the day, for the average lay person, the historical question of Roman primacy is essentially unanswerable, and so I would completely respect someone becoming Orthodox if conscience dictates it. I only pray that we continue the trend of the past century or so of reconciling the theological traditions of the two lungs of the Church. In my estimation, there really aren’t any insurmountable differences.
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They certainly shouldn't be. It seems the church has done an excellent job of defending the "truth" to the point that the essence of the Truth is forgotten. I think many protestants should be lumped into this discussion as well. Stylistic preferences, minor doctrinal disagreements, and certainly dogmas shouldn't usurp the Spirit that truly joins all of us as one Body.
Perhaps the most saddening portion of the interview is that Derek is stuck choosing between the "type" of Christian he wants to be. I feel as though The Apostles would truly despise the "team picking" aspect of modern Christianity. Where did we get off determining who is the "true church" and other Spirit-filled, Christ-imitating Believers remain "far from home." It's gross.
Just got confirmation this year Roman Catholic never been better in life or in relationships after being able to receive and be open to Jesus in the Eucharist and I would never want to say that a year ago but so true and so thankful our Lord called me back home my parish is amazing only thing wrong with it is me and my sins I bring and need Gods help with
Welcome home
Matt been watching your channel for a couple years or more now, yet recently was Chrismated Orthodox. I have to give it to you for modeling such a gracious conversation. Thank you & god bless!
It was actually very helpful to me to see Derek’s thought process as I am going through the same process myself. Thank you for this video.
Westerners look at the East and larp sometimes. It's really not much more than thinking the grass is greener on the other side, as a novelty if you will....but they're incorrect. The Catholic Church is the perfect universal solution of West and East, thanks be to God. Become Catholic and adopt Eastern devotions if you wish, it's 100% okay. Join one of the Eastern Orthodox churches and you lose 1000 years of some of the greatest theological minds in history. I mean, for instance, they view Aquinas as a heretic. A bit ironic, I know.
@@pazpktsouthernmiss the Venerable Bede is also an Orthodox saint fyi.
@Super Mario Margaret Mary Alacoque did practice self mutilation and eat the feces of a dysentery patient on one occasion. That part isn't slander. Such things seem so beyond the pale of Christian devotional praxis that I couldn't blame anyone for suspecting demonic influence.
@Super Mario there is a definite difference between the self-denial that is practiced in the early church and the deliberate self-harm practiced by post-schism western saints.
I did not say she was demonic. I, nor you, have any idea of what was in her heart. I just stated that her personal devotions were so extreme and bizarre that the suspicion is justified.
I won't read her autobiography, because I am Orthodox and I don't make enough time to read the lives of our own saints. But those anecdotes are easily verified if you are skeptical enough to search for them.
@Super Mario it is a question of intention and what exactly we are struggling against. Remember that ascesis means exercise. Self-denial and struggling against the passions is indeed different than literally carving your flesh. Even St. Simeon returning the maggot to his wound is different from taking a blade or a scourge to yourself. If I had to venture a guess, I would presume that to the medieval and Renaissance Roman Catholic mind, the passions and the flesh are conflated, and this is why we see begin to see such extreme instances of self-mutilation in the post-schism West. St Symeon chaining himself to a pillar, or St Macarius living in a swamp despite the conditions, are not the same as Margaret Mary carving herself or eating feces. These anecdotes are not unsubstantiated. They are in her autobiography, and you could easily find them with a simple Google search.
@Super Mario My friend, you are the one defending strawmen I have never attacked and using ad hominems. I have pointed you to her autobiography, which you apparently have, and contains all the stories of her self-mutilating and eating feces and vomit. This is not slander; these are her own claims.
It is important to remember that the word "repent", which Christ commands, which the Roman Catholic Church has erroneously translated as "do penance" actually means "change your mind" (μετα- change νοειτε- your mind) i.e., to acquire the mind of Christ, as St. Paul puts it. If you believe that self-mutilation and eating feces are means of obeying this commandment, then more power to you I suppose. God bless you.
This was a really great discussion with Derek and very enjoyable to watch. I'm very grateful for this channel. It is such a blessing in my life. Also, I like the new intro music in combination with the old, and I love the outro music as well. The music by Emma Fradd is really inspiring and uplifting.
In my struggle I came to the conclusion that I don’t have to know everything and I don’t have to understand everything. God doesn’t need that from me. It just takes the pressure off.
Thanks so much Matt for having this kind of interview (as well as all your interviews)! I find myself on the shores of the Tiber as well but for many reasons am not quite ready to cross. 95% of those reasons lie within the questions that Derek had of community and who will take care of us? I know these are not reasons enough but they are huge for some of us that come from strong Christian communities and yet feel the pull of the fullness in being Catholic. Thank you Derek for your honesty and vulnerability... It was a refreshing cup of cold water along this journey. Sheree
I am so glad to know that I am not alone in this particular struggle
This was a really great conversation. I loved how y'all were tackling so many issues honestly that are easy for people to gloss over. About the contrast between Catholicism and Orthodoxy in terms of how defined doctrine is. I do think there is a problem on that front in the current life of the Catholic Church, and I think Brian Holdsworth dealt with it well recently. On the Orthodox side, there is something appealing about being less tied down. Yet the Orthodox (like Catholics) make strong claims along the lines of "look at the early church--whom do you recognize?" But when we do look at the earlier church, we see a great deal of obsession about doctrinal precision, and mobs in the streets being concerned about it on one side of a heresy or another. What's more, the East was more into that than the West. Now, the point is also worth making that too much focus on definitions also caused charity to wax cold. The point I mean to make in all of this is that over-defining vs. being laid-back is not a very meaningful dualism. In this realm, every side can learn the wisdom of In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas. And when it comes to the necessary, the question is "who decides what is necessary? (and how?)"
This business about Eastern Orthodoxy being vague and undefined is silly. And for some reason it's always the Orthodox who are saying this as some kind of selling point vs Catholicism. I can't take that line of argumentation seriously because the first 7 ecumenical councils were very specific and precise, and the Fathers are very specific and precise. So Orthodox should stop using that line of reasoning because it indicates that they are not the very precise and specific Church of the first millennium, but some squishy thing.
The problem is the leaders of the catholic church who are liberal and infuriating
Just before the 2hr mark he mentions about being more Christ-like. If you want to imitate Christ, talk with His Mother and love her as He did. I’m sure she will help with your discernment.
Dude, I love the term he coined: Paschal’s ecclesiastical wager. Perfect! I often give this same type of rationale to Catholics about their view of the validity of Orthodox sacraments and Holy Orders. Great show!
Same here. And now I have a name for it!
I was under the impression that the Catholic Church officially views the Othodox sacraments as valid
@@joedwyer3297 They do view the Orthodox sacraments as valid. Hence the “paschal’s wager” reference. If one chooses Orthodoxy over Catholicism and it turns out that Catholicism is the TRUE church, then the one who converted to Orthodoxy need not worry. According to the Catholic Church all that is necessary for salvation is within the Orthodox Church.
Also, the Orthodox Greeks and Russians have only been divided since 2017 and is mainly over political issues over the Church in Ukraine. Which is very recent.
The history of the Church is packed with small schisms like this. The Rome-Antioch schism of the 300s is a good example, where St. Meletius of Antioch (who was out of communion with Rome at the time) presided over the 2nd Ecumenical Council. This would be impossible within modern RC ecclesiology (where being out of communion with Rome immediately means being in error), but has always been possible within Orthodox ecclesiology.
I’d recommend everyone interested in history to read Fr Aidan Nichol’s “Rome and the Eastern Churches”. He is a British Dominican priest and academic who ignited the beginnings of academic career writing about Russian spirituality, specially Bulgakov. So he definitely knows his stuff. He’s written about Byzantine spirituality and St Maximus the Confessor too.
The book is great as far as history goes and presents the theological reasonings of every side of the division processes (of the apostolic churches) and the current state of relationship between them and the Catholic Church. And it deals with them pretty fairly and in a balanced way. Oh, and it refers not only to the split in 1054 but also the Assyrian Church of the East’s split in 431 and the Oriental Orthodoxy’s split in 451.
God bless you all!
I'd recommend Michael Whelton's Two Paths for an introductory text to anyone interested in Orthodoxy vs RCism. It focuses on historical developments in both the 1st and 2nd Millenniums.
Agreed Master Chief. That book was very helpful for my own journey to Catholicism.
@@cjgumbert Are you EO?
@@ArgyllPiper90 Yes, I am Orthodox.
Perhaps add: Russia and the Universal Church, and maybe the Early Papacy by Adrian Fortescue?
TH-cam channel: Reason & Theology for engaging Eastern Orthodoxy. The TH-cam video: Vatican I in the First millennium.
I'm going through the same thing. Two children. Wife isn't interested in Orthodoxy.
Would be far easier to be Roman Catholic and have much less friction in the family. More options , more opportunities for my children, more available resources. I just keep looking East and tend to follow that mindset much more.
Torn.
🙏
You know what's true 😉. It's not the "unchanging apostolic faith" of popes going to mosques and praying towards Mecca, and encouraging their followers to do likewise in the name of "ecumenism".
Western rite orthodoxy
This is excellent. We are in a similar situation. We live in a rural area that is basically a high church desert. The nearest reverent mass is 2 hours away and the nearest EO is 2 hours away. We have 4 very young kids. Pray for us please.
I know that guy! My roomie at the Exodus Freedom Summit! One classy dude!
May God continue to lead and bless you and your family, Mr Cummins. Thank you for sharing your story and remember...we all are on a journey with our Lord that is eternal. We will never ‘arrive’ while in this life. That the Orthodox Church Baptizes and Chrismates even wee babes helps us to perceive this reality. Also, when Christ called his disciples, the men who responded were simple ones with open hearts. You have answered His call, which is the most important thing. He will make plain to your heart which path to take...through the still-small voice of the Holy Spirit. You may always feel a pull between the Eastern and Western arms of the Church, as I do after almost thirty-six years of being Orthodox. Yet, our ecclesiology offers a more stable and secure home for followers of Christ during these tumultuous times (imho). May our Lord bring you and your wife peace as you continue to travel His Way. He will use this period of discernment to draw you ever-nearer to Him and to prepare you as a worker in His Kingdom. Praying for you all 🙏🏼
Only 30 minutes through, and I want to cry right now this is so close to me. I attend a non-denominational church and the conversations/meetings they have there are eerily similar to what Derek is saying here. I really wish I could attend some sort of Mass or Orthodox service at some point
It’s nice to now other people go through denomination limbo, I’m currently on the fence between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
Russia and universal church, is a great read about the eastern orthodox history and their errors thru history. Solovyov was an EO, who came into union with Rome. He is considered almost like St. Thomas aquinas of the east in philosophy.
Plus, youtube channels like Reason and theology and The meaning of catholic have great context on EO.
Solovyev is not an Aquinas of the East. In fact, he became a perennialist and dabbled in the occult/kabbalah.
@@cjgumbert post your sources. If not no cares of your made of stories.
Solovyovs work speaks for itself. That how we know you have no idea what you are talking about.
@@TheEdzy25 Solovyov was a turpentine addict
@@jamesb0gginsw0rth63 that doesnt even make sense. Turpentine is pine oil, you can not get high on it. Simple chemistry dude...😂
@@TheEdzy25 tell that to Solovyov. Also, Cornelius statement isnt even remotely controversial. Solovyov being an occultist and kabbalist is rather basic info. Him being the Aquinas of the East is the most cracked out statement I have ever heard. You must only be familiar with portions of his writings on Church matters.
I must say, I really appreciate your videos and charitable heart, Matt. I really look up to you and feel a real brotherly connection to you in a way that I don’t to most of my Protestant brothers and sisters (Confessional Lutheran here). I often lament the lack of historical continuity or even awareness of actual Christian Orthodoxy on our side of this unfortunate chasm between us. I especially mourn the fact that the Holy Sacraments are not enjoyed or hardly even known among most Protestants. I have also felt this attraction to my Church family in Rome, but in my study, I just can’t find myself convinced that it’s fully true.
That said, dearest brother, I want to encourage you and thank you for your charity and gentleness and patience and humility toward all you have on your show. I love to consume your material and learn much about God’s love from you. Peace be with you, dear friend.
I feel for this guy as I've been where he was in this, and still am in some ways. The reality is that this kind of discernment can go on for a lifetime, as there isn't any kind of light at the end of the tunnel for those that are looking to join a church that presents Truth and also is a good fit on a more practical, on the ground level. Sometimes, the best option is to find where God is leading you and take up your cross and follow Him, even if you end up somewhere that isn't a perfect fit.
This was a really great discussion, Matt
I highly recommend the book "Two Paths" by Michael Whelton.
It was the Portuguese that took Latin Catholicism to India in the 15th century. Although they were originally evangelized by St.Thomas the apostle according to tradition.
I like Derek! Very self aware and asking the hard questions (:
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I grew up Catholic, converted to Seventh Day Adventism, then became agnostic almost falling into New Age. Now I'm bouncing around watching Catholics like Bishop Barron, Orthodox like Jonathan Pageau, and listening to Protestant apologetics like Cross Examined and Mike Winger. There so much great stuff to learn about but at the end I feel like it narrows down to cultural norms, traditions, political views, family history, theological doctrines, nationality, etc. And I'm saying this as a guy who has lived abroad, comes from an immigrant background, and is married to a woman of a different race and background. So I understand the difficulty of seeking the truth and for those who are strict on their views about their theological affiliation, please understand things aren't simply black and white, as I have learned through my readings of Paul and reading a bit of Jordan Peterson's work. At the end, my focus is Jesus and finding ways to praise Him through my works.
God bless you Derek! In joining the Orthodox Catechumenate from Evangelicalism I've gone from absolutely disregarded anything Roman Catholic as heretical and pagan to something that I can respect (even deeply) even if I ultimately don't believe in it. Dogma and doctrine absolutely matter but I'm scared of becoming a rigid, proud, jerk. Akriveia with love, tears and humility moves one to genuine repentance and that's who I want to be. God bless you!
This is why Catholics and Orthodoxy need to mend their differences and come back together.
I was in a similar position as Derek, but became Catholic a year ago instead of Orthodox because I needed to be able to receive the Eucharist, amongst some other reasons. But I share his difficulties with Mariology. Certain teachings I can logically accept, but some just never made enough sense that I could accept them using some logical reasoning to determine if they were true. And when you're coming from a protestant background, it's a different culture. As a protestant, I didn't dislike Mary, but some Catholics make Marian veneration seem so bizarre. Ultimately it came down to accepting the church's teaching as an act of faith, so that I could move forward, but I still struggle with that.
You know the Church recognised the validity of the sacraments in EO Churches? So they also have the Eucharist. But I am also a convert to Catholicism, so I'm glad you're home!
Fascinating discussion. And hard as the experience itself is, I love that Derek is not taking anything as obvious, but taking all of his struggles seriously. I'm reminded of something a friend said to always keep in mind: "Where have we seen Christ? For that is where we need to go." I pray for you and your family in this journey of faith.
I was baptized, confirmed, first communion as a baby via Greek Orthodox. I converted to Roman Catholic at 22 yo. All the sacraments I had received counted so I was simply blessed and formally received Catholic...which was still very powerful. But when I had my son I delved into WHAT AND WHY the sacraments are administered at different ages...so I took my son to the BYZANTINE Church...under PAPAL umbrella BUT my kid was confirmed at 5 yo....for almost 2000 years confirmation came BEFORE first communion in the RC rite...then they moved 1st communion earlier and FORGOT?! about confirmation in 1950s... 8th grade is TOO OLD for confirmation in these end times...kids are sooo worldly already.
My goodness, it’s like I’m watching my own struggle right now! I hope and prayer you find peace Derek.
This is a very interesting conversation. I am from Pittsburgh, live in Ohio, spend a lot of time in Steubenville, Burgettstown. I HAVE A Roman Catholic Priest cousin who is blind and retired. He lives in McKees Rocks, and he accidentally went to the Orthodox Church there instead of the Eastern Catholic Church. Hilarious really. Anyway, my office is in Elwood City.
I spent 2 years as an Orthodox Catechumen before swimming the Tiber. I consider myself an Eastern Catholic that belongs to a Latin Parish.
In other words, I feel this gentleman's dilemma.
God Bless!
Gosh I’m in the same position sort of. I attended a Byzantine Catholic Church.
Beautiful testimony. It wouldn’t be a fully informative decision until he attends the Latin Mass at a traditional Catholic parish. The Latin mass represents the Catholic Faith. Hopefully a FSSP, SSPX or another traditional parish is within driving distance to him. This would allow him to experience the Catholic Faith the way it was before the recent changes. May God Bless him and thank you for sharing this conversation
Aside from Derek's wariness of Mariology in the month of May, not much discussion about Mary. Fatima? Lourdes? Guadalupe? EO has possibly the undeveloped theological basic tenets about Mary, but it is definitely more focused in the RC church. This is precisely why unification would be so wonderful. I've also looked into Orthodoxy, but to join I'd have to renounce so many aspects of Catholicism, and be rebaptized? What? RC is heretical? Come on. Even between some battling EO churches, you'd have to be rebaptized to join another. While both RC and EO have Christ, the basic necessity, Orthodoxy just isn't enough.
Amen. I agree 100%
Where did you hear you have to be rebaptised for joining a different EO jurisdiction? Are you maybe confusing us with the Oriental Orthodox (Armenian, Coptic, etc), because they split from both us and Rome in 451.
But yes, to us Rome is heretical, it confesses a different Creed, doesn't commune children, teaches a different doctrine of salvation, teaches that we cannot participate in the Uncreated Energies of God (His Grace, Love, Glory, etc) only in created effects, teaches a different doctrine of Original sin, etc.
So, you can believe we're wrong and you're right, but not that we teach the same theology. That's why there cannot be unification, only conversion.
@@user-ii3zs2gr6u It also teaches a very dangerous and heretical papism which says one man in Rome has the authority, if he wants, to destroy 2000 years of authentic Christian traditions. This same man goes to mosques and prays with Muslims towards Mecca while encouraging his followers to do the same in the name of "ecumenism", and we're supposed to "submit" to him if we want to be apart of the "unchanging apostolic faith".
These apparitions are not doctrines of Faith but private revelations. I think the orthodox church has been very prudent with regards to private revelations and it is us that went overboard with them.
I was Catholic 50 years and became Orthodox 15 years ago. I have found the light and the true faith.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
17:11 🎙️ *Derek Cummins shares his journey of discernment between Catholicism and Orthodoxy with Matt Fradd.*
22:06 🤔 *Derek recounts a challenging tour experience with his metal band, leading to moments of prayer and a shift in his perspective on faith.*
26:08 🎸 *Derek describes transitioning from a non-devout lifestyle to enrolling in seminary, influenced by his band's experiences and spiritual reflections.*
28:00 👐 *Becoming a youth pastor was the most fulfilling vocational experience for Derek, emphasizing the unique openness and spirituality of teenagers.*
30:02 🙏 *Derek integrates Catholic and Ignatian spiritual practices into his youth ministry, fostering meaningful experiences for the students.*
31:55 🤔 *Explored Protestant-style Eucharistic Adoration during a retreat, introducing elements like Last Supper icon and reflecting on communion, finding surprising positive response from participants.*
33:47 📖 *Studied Nicene Creed in college-age ministry, faced resistance when discussing sacramental aspects, and eventually got advised to avoid sacramental topics like baptism, challenging the church's perspective.*
39:27 🏛️ *Raised concerns about the church focusing too much on comfort, technology, and lacking a sense of holiness. Questioned the impact of the church environment on people's spiritual experience.*
43:52 💔 *Resigned from the position as a youth pastor after expressing belief in sacramental aspects like baptism and the real presence in the Eucharist, which conflicted with the church's stance. Faced challenges during the transition.*
48:06 🤝 *Explored Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism, attended liturgies, and encountered welcoming priests like Father Jason from Holy Trinity Ukrainian Greco-Catholic Church, which played a role in his spiritual journey.*
52:05 🌐 *Exploring Byzantine Catholicism: The speaker shares his journey from discovering Byzantine Catholicism to engaging with key figures in the community.*
54:10 🤔 *Divergence in Discernment: Discusses the perceived differences between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, emphasizing the challenge of choosing between the two paths.*
55:06 🕍 *Western Orthodoxy: Explores the concept of Western Orthodoxy within the Antiochian and Russian Orthodox Churches, highlighting attempts to revive ancient practices.*
58:35 💒 *Easier Path to Catholicism: Expresses that embracing Catholicism might be more convenient socially, economically, and liturgically, presenting a pragmatic perspective.*
01:03:52 🍇 *Fruits of Faith: Considers the importance of actions and charitable deeds in addition to doctrinal correctness, weighing the appeal of Catholicism's engagement in charitable works.*
01:13:19 🤔 *Orthodox may be viewed by some Catholics as having similarities to Protestants in their approach to the Fathers and liturgy.*
01:14:02 🇷🇺 *Catholics wonder about Orthodox priests holding differing views on issues (e.g., contraception) and whether they leave their communion.*
01:14:44 🔄 *People in both Catholicism and Orthodoxy sometimes switch parishes based on ideological differences but remain within the same communion.*
01:15:26 🌐 *Historical instances show periods where particular churches in Orthodoxy were out of communion with each other, reflecting a flexible ecclesiology.*
01:18:29 🛤️ *The flexibility and mystery in Orthodoxy appeal to some, while concerns in Catholicism include excessive doctrinal definition and liturgical innovation.*
01:33:44 🕊️ *The discussion involves exploring passages, like Paul's exhortation to hold fast to traditions, emphasizing unity in Eucharistic communion despite theological variations in Catholicism.*
01:35:52 🛐 *The conversation delves into the significance of liturgy, drawing parallels between Eastern and Western expressions, and discussing the impact of missionary approaches on cultural adaptation.*
01:37:18 🌐 *The discussion touches on the potential openness to the Latin Mass and contrasts Western and Eastern missionary methods, pondering the imposition of customs versus cultural integration.*
01:39:56 🤔 *The guest expresses the ongoing struggle of indecision, influenced by a desire to discern God's will, potentialmissionary calls, and the tension between reason and faith.*
01:46:28 💔 *Personal experiences are shared, revealing instances of almost joining Orthodoxy, with family considerations impacting decisions and highlighting the challenges of doctrinal purity versus familial unity.*
01:53:31 🤔 *Discerning between Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy is compared to discerning marriage, emphasizing the challenge of choosing a spiritual home.*
01:54:26 🏡 *The idea of "coming home" to Catholicism or Orthodoxy is discussed, highlighting the emotional impact and the challenge of discerning objective truth amid personal desires.*
01:55:21 😕 *The challenge of discernment is complicated by the pressure to conform to specific theological beliefs within a religious community.*
01:56:32 🌐 *The conversation delves into the desire for certainty in a chaotic world, leading some individuals to embrace extreme positions within religious groups.*
01:57:01 💔 *The sacrifice involved in making a decision between Catholicism and Orthodoxy is discussed, acknowledging the potential heartbreak and challenges associated with choosing one path over another.*
I would dispute the discussion on Indian Catholicism. The Malabar rites have a lot of influence from Syriac rites, so they took on significant external influence regardless. Also, there are many Indian Catholics who were converted and had nothing in common with the pre-existing St Thomas Christians, and may have even been more resistant to that due to regional rivalries.
Perhaps Derek would be the right person to lead Hallow to some good Eastern content for the app
"HOW ARE WE PREACHING THE GOSPEL WITHOUT WORDS?" That is a fantastic question!
Good talk but I feel the idea he and a lot of EOs have that the east has never changed it’s liturgy is just historically false. Theres enduring schisms over those changes. It’s been massively shortened over time. Obviously Latins have the bigger problem here but acting like the DL hasn’t ever changed and won’t ever change is just laughable
I love the Orthodox Church with all my heart. God bless you my brothers.
1:02:00 Important reminder that the Talmud & modern judaism descended from the pharisees, not from Jesus or the Israelites. The old covenant has been finished, do not seek salvation there.
Fantastic conversation.
-A Western Orthodox brother in Christ.
Great interview with Derek, really feel he should have become orthodox, but I'm a bit biased there as an orthodox catechumen. I have more of an appreciation for eastern Catholics now I think they'll play an important part in terms of uniting the two churches and being the glue to accomplish that when the catholic church finally decides to make a quite few concessions (don't get me wrong theres probably one or two concessions the orthodox may need to make as well, but more so Catholics)
I wanted to say Thank you for having this discussion . It is hard to explain yourself especially when your still on a journey . It was so helpful to hear an HONEST person talk about the struggles in his choices . I loved some of his explanation of eastern thought.
I attend a Latin parish of Fraternity of St. Peter where I find the teaching of the Fathers , a beautiful meditative unitive liturgy , and somewhere I can raise my children.
Great discussion. Both churches are authentic. Each has the sacraments, is apostolic, an instrument of salvation, etc. Each also has its own unique characteristics, flaws, and even errors. It is ultimately a matter of choosing the one (whether it is Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or other) that will help you draw closer to Jesus Christ.
Wrong. There's only one church not two. Stop spouting this liberal bull crap. What you're spouting is protestantism and modernism
Hi Derek, I'm probably miss quoting you but early in the talk you said something like, how do I know this is true. I was raised Roman Catholic, various Catholic schools, Alter Boy, etc. But when I was approached for confirmation. I just couldn't in good faith commit. Many churches... I'm 63 and still struggle with who has the truth. I have a very strong relationship with our Lord. And rest OUTSIDE of the passage (I never knew you). Matt, I stumbled on your program about a month ago. Love it! Long form, is my morning program as I get ready for my day. Keep it polite, respectful, inteligent, and diversified!
God Bless!
I'm a protestant who has been looking at Orthodoxy for more than a year now. Only recently have I given the Catholic Church a 'look'. I also struggle more with Papal Infallibility and some of the 'liberal' things I see. It does seem that many in both Orthodoxy and in Catholicism seem to push protestants away who are truly seeking the truth. In some of the groups I read on Facebook for instance (read more than participate) they (especially the Orthodox??) seem to have some who seem very arrogant. I know any group has some folks like that but they sure would attract more folks by being loving. Anyways, excellent video, my struggles are very similar.....
Im Catholic,and I go to a Byzantine Catholic Church.
I promise to pray for you and hope the disagreeable people don't discourage you.
God bless you.
Hey bro watering and cook stuff is always a good thing to fall back on when you need to lay low between big jobs
God bless the Pachamama in the river guy! 🙏
That guy is now a sedevaticanist who *lies* about events and statements. He's lied *a lot*. Either we are with Peter, or we are not.
I was baptised CofE, but my grandmother was greek orthodox and my partner comes from a strong roman catholic portuguese home, and ive been struggling to know which path to go down!
If God gave dreams and instincts and angelic voices to the Hebrew people and the early Christians, why would that stop? Why would God stop using our imaginations?
God gave us dreams and ideas and inspirations as part of our humanity. Surely, He also uses those senses to communicate with him us.
Even scripture says to test the spirit. It doesn't say "any imaginating is demons." I'm confused. In one sentence we say the East is full of mystery (which I love.) Then, the next sentence, "renounce your imagination."
Part of my return to the Faith was visions. St. Jeanne D'Arc level visions. I may not have come back without Jesus and Mary and Magdalene literally speaking to me directly. Without being visited by dead loved ones.
I've seen darkness too, during my pagan phase. I know the difference.
Hey Matt, I live in Sweden, but if you're willing to pay for plane tickets, accommodation and food, I'd be happy to come over to laugh at your jokes any time you're recording a video. ;)
God bless you guys, and thank you for your work. You truly make a difference!
Derek you hit the nail on the head, the whole purpose of faith in Christ is to become, people can waste their whole life on doctrines and rituals and liturgies or anything else for that matter, but fail to walk the path to become perfect in love, love is a living spirit, and it is to become this living spirit, where your treasure is your heart will be also, if you have your heart on what is perishable when it pushes so does your heart, you must examine your heart and recognise what it is attached to, that is, the things of this world, what if you throw everything away and start from the beginning, and stop seeking what you are seeking and seek the kingdom within you, to be full of the Holy Spirit, and not full of desires and passions of the things that this world, even if you are attached to your wife and children then you must recognise this and become unattached within yourself, it is written, if you are married you should live as though you are not, have a look at the pain and suffering you will feel within yourself if you were to perceive that your wife and children were no more, if you find suffering in your heart then you are attached to them, and if this is the case, the love of the Christ is not in you, this is why Paul said it is good for a man to marry but it is better for him not to, because of the danger of having your heart attached to them, to be transformed into the image of the Christ, is self-annihilation so that the only thing that remains within you is the light of the living god, seek within and you will find it, but if you continue to seek what you are seeking that is, outside yourself, then you will never find it, understand this, to be transformed into the image of the Christ is to become perfect in love, to be full of light and no other thing.
th-cam.com/video/ZWXrL2udZec/w-d-xo.html
Matt, you should get this guy to read Balthasar. Balthasar was heavily influenced by Eastern Christian theology
I'm Catholic in 2024 and I love the Church, but I have utter contempt and rage towards the leadership, especially the "pope" If you want to follow Christ and His teachings, you can not support killing innocent humans inside of the womb,nor sexual degenerate behavior. Only demons would attack the truth and those who speak it. God Bless Archbishop Vigano.
All right Derek. You've officially driven me nuts. Decide already and trust God. Get on with it before you run out of time.
As a Tennessee girl the beginning made me happy lol
im in this similar position now. my fiancee and all my closest friends are evangelical charismatic and I find myself hungry to become Orthodox. but I dont want to sacrifice my future spouse or my fellowship. I wish I could just take them all with me.
I needed to hear this I just recently come back to the church but have been having a desire to go to a “young hip” church. I think I’ll stay rooted in tradition.
I was raised Baptist converted to Catholicism and now Orthodox.
I honestly don't understand the difference between Orthodox and Roman Catholicism. The Pope of course, the rest seems like splitting hairs. As far as I can tell, the Orthodox don't experience eucharistic miracles. Their explanation is that a Eucharistic Miracle is because of unbelief so that they don't publicize them. This is true but the cynic in me sees this as a bit of cope.
In my view, many Orthodox suffer from a minority identity complex. Since they're in a minority status in the West they seem to overcompensate. They seem to have a fanatical, almost Jewish obsession with "purity." It's a very proud and uncharitable attitude. Not saying that this is what they're like IRL, but definitely online, this attitude is prevalent. Also not saying the Trad Caths aren't like that either (they are). But it seems like the Trad Caths are most hostile to liberal wings of the Catholic Church, not hostile to people OUTSIDE the Church. I think Derek is right when he says that there is a distinctly unwelcoming vibe in Orthodox communities.
I feel for you brother but persevere in earnest and you will be called home. I spent 20 years in the dark and then received clarity and direction. Peace!
Derek is amazing😊 I just want him to receive the Holy Eucharist.
thank you for this video.
That was a real chat
Being an Orthodox Christian, born and raised in Serbia, and being a Serbian patriot to boot, I am sorry to say that lots of my compatriots are Serbian first and Christian second. The one explanation I could give of this from a historical perspective is that, without the Serbian Orthodox Church, I would be speaking Turkish or German instead of Serbian. The Church really did play an immensely important role in preserving our language, culture and Christian faith, all true markers of our national identity, through centuries of Ottoman and Habsburg domination... Other than this - great talk - THANK YOU!
I really relate to this interview in many ways, been looking into both RCC and EO on and off for some time and the biggest reason why i don't go all in is because my wife and i are not on the same page in this regard. I know the local RC bishop and he has said to me in a conversation that i have a Catholic heart but as much as he wants me to join his flock he doesn't want it while my wife is in opposition so i am in a bit of an impasse.
I would like to add that i do watch your channel regularly and this interview (and others) is the reason, the natural flow and accessibility for everyone regardless of church background and faith or lack there of.
Matt you should seriously reach out to Christopher Langan and see if he'll come on the podcast
Jacob wrestled until daybreak.
I actually loved this conversation. Well done Matt. I'm Orthodox and I commend you for this. But I have to give a slight pushback on the part where you say that combating a certain heresy you have to be very specific and then it seems you think that Orthodoxy doesn't have this because we don't have a singular Pope to define it.
First we Are very specific.
Second the heresies that were counted for the first 1000 years were all squashed by no singular person but in councils and the Pope didn't decide the outcome and you know this.
Thirdly I the essence and energies distinction is very specific and Christological and I'm sure it would take you no more than a day to see that. So why not make that a piece in of homework and actually dig into it and compare that to the very illogical and aristotelian version of Catholic divine simplicity. I'm pretty sure you will see that essence/energies teaches divine simplicity in God's triune nature and also how God can act in his energies outside his essence. Just like your actions are not part of your body (such as your thoughts which is an act) God's energies are not tied to his essence and thus avoiding the obvious contradiction of being slave to your actions.
Try it brother and thanks for a great show.
This business about Eastern Orthodoxy being vague and undefined is silly. And for some reason it's always the Orthodox who are saying this as some kind of selling point vs Catholicism. I can't take that line of argumentation seriously because the first 7 ecumenical councils were very specific and precise, and the Fathers are very specific and precise. So Orthodox should stop using that line of reasoning because it indicates that they are not the very precise and specific Church of the first millennium, but some squishy thing.
@@rjc199 Never heard that and I clearly state. WE ARE VERY SPECIFIC.
Excellent podcast mate!
Catholicism.
I was raised protestant and studied my wait out of it after researching for years. But I still am at a loss for which of the two churches to join.
Assyrian Church of the East
It’s not always obvious is it? I’m Catholic but still get sucked in to the debate. The CC really helps though. When I read it I have faith I’m in the right spot.
Lateran Council 1 Canon 21: We absolutely forbid priests, deacons, subdeacons, and monks to have concubines or to contract marriage.
Lateran Council 2 Canon 6: For since they should be and be called the temple of God, the vessel of the Lord, the abode of the Holy Spirit, it is *unbecoming* that they *indulge in marriage* and in *impurities.*
1 Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and *teachings of demons,* through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who *forbid marriage*
1 Corinthians 9:5 *Do we not have the right* to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?
Canon 21 continued: We decree in accordance with the definitions of the sacred canons, that *marriages already contracted by such persons must be dissolved,* and that the persons be condemned to do penance.
Matthew 19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.
Innocent III, 1204 "We destine specially to this, that the material sword may be sanctioned to supply the defect of the spiritual sword, and you, besides the temporal glory which you will attain from so pious and praiseworthy a work, may obtain that pardon for sins, which we grant
as an indulgence for the remission of their sins, since we want those who faithfully shall have laboured against the heretics to rejoice in the same indulgence as we grant as an indulgence for those crossing the sea for the aid of the Holy Land."
Lateran Council 4 Canon 3: Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and *to the best of their ability to exterminate* (pro viribus exterminare studebunt) in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church.
_Ad extirpanda_ of Pope Innocent IV: We decree that the head of state [...] shall observe, both what is written herein, and other regulations and laws both ecclesiastical and civil, that are published against heretical wickedness. [...] No heretical man or woman may dwell, sojourn, or maintain a bare subsistence in the country, or any kind of jurisdiction or district belonging to it, whoever shall find the heretical man or woman shall boldly seize, with impunity, all his or their goods, and freely carry them off. [...] The head of state, or whatever ruler stands foremost in the public esteem, must cause the heretics who have been arrested in this manner to be taken to whatever jurisdiction the Diocesan, or his surrogate, is in, or whatever district, or city, or place the Diocesan bishop wishes to take them to. [...] *The head of state or ruler **_must force_** all the heretics whom he has in custody, provided he does so without killing them or breaking their arms or legs* to confess their errors and accuse other heretics whom they know.
Assyrian Church of the East.
@@Mygoalwogel Better off remaining protestant than joining with the Nestorians, that would just be going from bad to worse.
I really enjoyed this discussion and learnt a lot about the orthodox church. We're in closer communion than I realised.
I don't know if anyone has already explained the origins of the Syro Malabar rite in India, but they traced their roots to the Apostle Thomas, who went there. I expect that the Latin Rite came with much later European missionaries. It's not something I'd thought about before, as I thought Indian Catholics were mostly part of the Syro Malabar Church
Common sense and reason teach that if "the buck stops" nowhere, with none, it stops nowhere, with no one!
A lot of what he is saying about the internal division of orthodoxy is what kept me from considering it as a live option for conversion when I was returning to Christianity. As someone who lives in North America with a family background in Western Europe it just seemed to me that that was no reasonable standard by which I could put myself under the authority of anyone but the local Catholic ordinary even if I were to grant all of the claims of Orthodoxy.
I really related to this; my journey has been similar. I was attending a Russian Orthodox church in Australia but have just moved to a Catholic country where there is no Orthodox presence. I was baptised Catholic, but am drawn to Orthodoxy. Catholicism is very much the easy answer for me, orthodoxy would mean practising my faith alone, and without the sacraments.
practicing faith alone and without sacraments is not following what Jesus said. you have some serious thinking to do while all the answers already are in the catholic church.
Very helpful talk I think; very relevant to me. Often times something feels off that I cannot receive all the Sacraments if I am in good standing and just intellectually agree with everything Catholics and Orthodox agree on. I understand why one would be careful in saying the Orthodox and Catholics are the same Church in the most important sense; yet, if it is true that they can or should be seen as such, then it is possibly one of the most influential misunderstandings of our time to say they are not one. I think the greatest lesson I learned from the book of Judges and Kings is that the kings of Israel were just as much as sinners as the judges of Israel. The Lord God was their King, and the prophet Samuel made this clear in the transition from the time of Judges to Kings. If it really comes down to the papacy and everything else can be understood through a valid explanation such as the examples Derek gave, then my thought is, does it really matter? I'm not affirming this, but questioning if its true. The 12 Judges in Gospels are bishops, bishops appeal to God, it just so happens that both Churches affirm there existed a sort of unity with Peter in the early Church, it just so happens Peter is a typological figure of a high priest, but the history is well disagreed on. If it is really all history, and the Lord God is our King, then what is the problem? Every time a Judge or King demonstrated faith in God, they were in the right.
Yoke yourself to Jesus Christ. Then drive over here to Wapakoneta, Ohio to witness beautiful Latin rite, Roman Catholic liturgy in our strikingly gorgeous churches and speak to Father Jedidiah. Belong to the Church that Christ founded and breath with both lungs.