Original comment: I have been reading all of your comments and I just want to say that I appreciate all of the very thoughtful criticism. I have taken it into consideration and will be approaching the game with a different mindset going forward. I appreciate everyone who has given me the time of day whether you agreed or disagreed with me in this video. I wish you all a good day! Edit: I am editing this comment to reflect my current opinion of the game, as I no longer agree with the points made in this video. Since reading the comments on this video, I've changed my mindset on the game a lot, and I agree that being proactive is what you need to do against the bots. After reflecting on it, I've realized that this video is honestly a really poorly made and rushed video, and I did not convey my points clearly at all. I've adjusted my process for making videos and have promised myself to spend more time on each video going forward to ensure that I am stating my points clearly and giving proper examples for what I am talking about. I think what I was trying to get at in this video was, "If the bots are going to continue to do this much damage, then we should be able to react like in other games with high damage. Otherwise, revert the damage changes." But obviously, nothing like that was stated in the video, and I'm not even sure that I agree with that take currently. Honestly, I think my only problem was with the rocket striders, and I way overblew my frustration and directed it towards the bots as a whole, such as with the gunship light (honestly, it's fine. I really don't know why I thought I should've include that segment in the video). I also am and always was aware of how to utilize cover against bots (hell, I'd argue that this game made me better at other games because of the proactive mindset it put me in), but I purposely made the decision to go out of my way to get hit for examples of the damage that we take. This was wrong of me to do and comes across as sloppy at best and malicious towards the game at worst, and for that, I apologize. Given the recent 60 day conclusion patch, I feel as though everything is in an overall pretty good spot. I'd still say that something needs to be done about the rocket striders. Maybe they could exclusively fire the rockets at a long enough distance? Or maybe just swap the projectile for the same one as the rocket devastators? (Probably not though, that might affect our ability to shoot them.) I'm honestly not sure, but at the very least, ragdolling us from behind cover needs to go away. Now that some of the damage has been changed, the bots targeting has been adjusted, and I've changed my mindset, I'm having more fun than ever against the bots and am always looking forward to diving again whenever I have free time. Once again, I appreciate your time. I promise to put the proper amount of effort into my videos in the future. Have a good day!
Nah your take on the bugs having set enemies on certain planets is ass tbh but it's your opinion. I like it because it just makes since on certain planet if I go to a acid planet I want it to be full of the green bugs not the orange ones if I'm on a desert planet I want just regularly bugs not the ones who spit acid if I'm on a snow planet I want white bugs who spit ice they adapt and survive its there lore so taken that away for gameplay reasons isn't valid enough to mess with there lore
I wouldn't listen to the comments too much dude. Helldivers fans have 100 excuses ready at any given time if they smell someone giving any criticsm. You bring up some solid points here about the issues in HD2 (your conclusions about the solution are up for debate though).
Play whatever you find more Fun Bro. I am an MO Diver but on some occasions (Like to help out the DSS not be encircled when Bots captured Shelt) I chose to disregard MOs for other Strategic Reasons. I will just say that Realism is a great justification for why Firearms do not telegraph attacks. In Real World War often the most significant, longest, and important stage of Combat is simply "Knowing where the fuck the enemy even is." This is a Great Game because both players and AI are constrained and do not know where you are automatically but have to figure that out for themselves. Use Cover and incorporate some Tactical Planning before you Engage. Thats the real fun of this game, the fact that your Positioning, Equipment, and Prior actions taken (like Destroying Enemy Bases) is more of a factor in Combat than your Aim.
@@LEFT4GABEN The issue with that is you cant be in cover at all times. A tell wouldnt matter if you were behind cover or you dont even know where the bot is but the problem is when you know where the bot is and you still cant avoid their shots. "But its a gun, you shouldn't be warned before they fire!!!" Firstly, the cannon turret, second, lets look at the laser weapons the Helldivers have (keep in mind these are the players' and the ones who need to have a tell are just AI) the solid beam weapons in all 3 slots all have a wind up time where they make a charging sound and have a delay before firing, the sickle does as well and its the closest thing to a bot gun we have and finally the quazar takes 3 whole seconds to fire, is loud asf and has a giant glowing yellow ball on the front the whole time. Why do the player's weapons give the AI opportunities to dodge when its not possible for them and why dont the bots give players a chance to dodge when players are able to dodge? And my last point, why not? What harm would it do to the game if you could be given a bit more information if you were paying attention and being aware? It would lead to way more cinematic moments and im sure it would take no time at all to implement a single partial to some of the bot's guns
This, this is literally it. I was going to comment this but thank you, this stagger animation single-handedly makes otherwise decent automatic methods of killing them a lot less efficient (also impacts semi guns but the difference is much more people actually bother using the semi guns).
I agree I loved the regular machine but now every time I use it on the bot side it flinches the shield up and covers the head which is super frustrating
The only changes they need to make is: 1) Don't force me to stand up when knocked down 2) Make small bunker turrets more visible 3) Reduce the glare on the scanner on the front of gunships 4) Stop making recoiling devs lean back to put their head out of view from shots. 5) Fix headshots on bots (Nothing short of dead on the head is considered a headshot, next time you see one glitch out, try shooting the side of the head) 6) Reduce health on Tank turrets, they live for too long 7) Rocket striders need like a laser of something that appears before firing so you know when they are aiming 8) Reduce knockback power of rockets on rocket striders. 9) Rocket striders need to be an elite unit, not just replacing every strider on 7+ 10) Fix audio for bots, they need to be LOUDER, turrets need to make sounds when turning, I should hear the creaking of bots long before I hear their voices 11) Make the rewards for the bot head from the Fortress better. Like more samples. These are some, there are some more suggestions but they would be more like 11 where they can be applied to both bot and bug side.
If they add any laser pointer before firing that should ONLY be for the rocket strider AND rocket tank… that’s actually a really good idea but not for the rocket devastators they have enough telegraphing and the ragdoll through walls is the worst part about them right now (which goes for any ragdoll-capable enemy)
I agree with #10. There is no way a patrol should be able to run up behind me while I’m fighting another group and not hear the metal stomping on the ground behind me.
About DRG and spawn mechanics - you will not face every single type of enemy in DRG on any single mission, be it with modifier or without. Before game starts, it chooses several (8 a believe) special enemies that'll spawn on your mission outside of your normal grunts, praetorians and opressors, and nothing other then them will spawn. Modifiers can tilt the spawn one way or another, but there's still a limit on what you'll see on the mission, which is hidden from you before you start.
Not every attack should be telegraphed, this game isn't about reaction time, it requires planning. If you don't want to be shot don't stand in the line of fire. Be aware of your surroundings.
The enemies are an overwhelming force, just like with the bugs you either keep moving or keep them from getting close. On the bots you always take cover and prevent them from getting direct line of fire on you
Even if you don’t have much cover, just going prone in front of a small rock may protect you from 50% of the damage you take. Running heavy armor and using cover as much or as little as possible makes you really really durable
I kind of have the stance of the warning amount they give us is enough as it is (apart from rocket striders). For a ton of the automaton enemies, if you are within their sight lines, and they see you, you HAVE to assume that they will immediately open fire on you, and for everything that doesn't instakill or ragdoll you, you can take cover. If you are engaging any group of enemies, ASSUME that everything can and will shoot at you all at once. For a lot of cases (especially on super helldive) if you walk in the sight lines of like 10 heavy devs and 3 hulk bruisers with no cover around you, you shouldn't be complaining that you didn't get a warning they were about to fire, that was simply poor awareness. Same situation for if you strolled up to the front of a factory strider and wondered why you didn't get a warning that you would get absolutely bent over and fucked where democracy don't shine. Basically, the reaction you need to have shouldn't be to a queue that the enemy gives you, it should be to the enemy themselves. The enemy IS the warning, and you should be expected to react accordingly to different enemy type encounters (that is of course if you can actually play the game and not be tossed around in a ragdoll state for 10 second intervals).
Correct. The way to deal with bot is simply take cover. If you can't see the enemy but they can see you, don't go looking around hopefully to catch them during atk interval or telegraphing their next atk. You should immediately take cover.
Exactly my friend I've made similar points about this. The devs of the game made them this way for a reason. Guns don't have telegraphed attacks. Rocket devs need to stabilize themselves to support shooting out a volley of rockets. Canon towers have a glow cause they are charging up a big energy projectile
@@luigi9458well yes and the conon turret has a telegraphed attack cause it's charging up a huge energy bolt. Realistically you would see a glow, which it has
I would argue that bugs too has a poor telegraphing, but not in their visual designs, but in sounds. Amount of time silent charger trampled over me or stealthy Titan sneaked up behind me is kinda absurd. They're big boys, they should make loud sounds.
The bug breach call-in is also extremely difficult to spot before it's too late. I don't think I've ever been able to stop a bug breach. That one is much less egregious though since it kinda makes sense that bug breaches are harder to prevent and are more frequent than dropships, since they're more the "endless horde" faction.
Bro….you can hear titans stomping from hundreds of meters away turn up your volume and turn down the music. Like I’ll be minding my business and hear their foot steps and panic only to realize they are like 200 meters from me.
The spewers are the worst. They make next to no sound and by the time you can react to the puking sound you’re already dead. And 1 of them seek up behind you and you’re just dead, not to mention they over lap and phase through one another, so that one is actually 3
feeeeeelllll like youre not getting the point,, the point was that if he knew if it was a rocket or a laser he couldve reacted differently, if it was a laser he wouldve been fine jumping forwards, but if it were a rocket it couldve produced different counter play,, im not saying that in this EXACT scenario there was a different play he couldve made but the point was knowing and not knowing!!! no hate !
@@abelpoon4232 i saw that too but it doesnt matter if its a rocket or a laser dodging away would just negate the damage in either way, the most that could happen is a rackdoll. But his point was that if there is a rocket strider standing in front of you, you don’t need to and shouldn’t know what he is going fire only that he is going to fire bc you should be prepared for both meaning: prawn to the side
this is a common criticism you take it too far though rocket devastators and gunships telegraph their attacks just fine they have sound cues and the rockets are quite slow add to that that rocket devastators do not lead their shots so you can just run perpendicular to them and dodge the rockets gunships always lead by 5m in front of you so their rockets are easily dodged by simply changing direction upon hearing them fire, and personally I have never found their lights to be an issue either
I actually like the light so you know they are aiming AT you vs someone else in the team. Having the light helps a lot in a situation where there are like 8 active so you don't get hit with a red cumblast of rockets out of nowehere.
They dont have to be pointing at you to shoot you, have you never encountered a gun-between-the-legs heavy devastator? Also they have laser weapons. Every single one of our laser weapons has a wind up, why dont theirs? Also just because they are looking at you doesnt mean they are 0.1 seconds from shooting you, have you never dove out of the way only for the bot to wait till you hit the ground (and rogdoll for no reason on a rock) to blast you? I dont have much trouble with even level 10 bots but i do acknowledge that they would be more fun if you could tell when they will shoot. Not even all of them just the super dangerous ones. The MG Raiders could have their backpack glow before they unleash a pinpoint volley into your head. Rocket raiders could have the light in their launcher get brighter as the rocket takes off (although they arent much of a problem to begin with). Heavy devastators just suck in general so adding a windup to their minigun (just like every other game ever) would be like a bandaid on a missing arm. Flame hulks have a massive telegraph so why do bruisers have none at all? And then the other things he mentioned They aren't mandatory but i dont see how they could make the game worse
Assuming you can even see where the gun is pointed through all the smoke, or know the exact timing of when they will shoot, and assuming they're even facing you at all in the case of heavy devastators. Not to mention, they're laser weapons. You'd have a point if they fired bullets, but they fire lasers, which every other laser has wind-up in this game. The sickle, scythe, dagger, and laser cannon all have wind-up.
@@GamerKiwi thats wind up time, not wind up animation. this guy is complaining that the enemies aren't like dark souls bosses and don't prompt him to be able to dodge their attacks.
@@PatrickRatman And why shouldn't they? You're supposed to be able to dodge enemy attacks, that's the entire reason there's a dive button. Poorly telegraphed and powerful attacks are just plain bad design. An attack should either be weak enough that it won't kill you on its own, or it should be telegraphed enough it can be reacted to.
@@GamerKiwi Because guns don't give a warning, you should be moving through cover and not exposing yourself out in the open. And wtf do you mean "strong attacks should be telegraphed" THE TANK AND TURRETS HAVE A RED GLINT BEFORE IT SHOOTS YOU. Literally the only unit that has the issue of its attacks being too powerful to avoid instant death is the armored scout strider. Rockets from rocketeers and devastators are incredibly easy to dodge, and shredders and strider miniguns are a menacing target that you just shouldn't be out of cover when they're deployed. If you're in a situation that you get killed by a heavy devastator before you can get to cover that is YOUR fault and you should infact just GET GOOD. Literally this is just an issue of players being so stubborn on trying to fight bots like they're fighting bugs that they refuse to accept that you need to take cover from the enemy. If the map does not provide good cover, bring your own with the bubble shield or backpack shield.
minor correction at 7:33 DRG does have spawn pools that change slightly from mission to mission, even without modifiers, but it does so in a way that is much less noticeable so you hardly notice it
What do you mean? HD1 has extremely well telegraphed attacks. The tanks look directly at you with a very loud sound + a laser going directly at where it is going to shoot, the hulks stop in a very obvious way and when they shoot they start close to themselves and end up going into the distance, giving you time to react In fact, I would say he would have survived with ease the first galactic war
@guillermotoro2342 HD1 had infinite reinforcements, game was nuts and you'd die for no reason and sometimes from enemies off screen. But you could always respawn as long as one helldivers is alive
@@semihezen9541 Yeah, but every enemy had a very distinct sound cue even if they were outside your screen, so you could dodge even without seeing them Also yeah, I know, I'm still playing the game, is pretty damn fun
It makes... way more sense then I would enjoy as technically humans are the real predatory species, the bugs just as any other prey are trying to deter them from even starting a fight by scaring or deterring us with those poses/lights/sounds
The only enemy that needs telegraphing is the rocket strider. Everything else is pretty well balanced. The IFV turrets can only hit you with that attack and do so the second they look at you. In other words, dont stand in the open when they're actively looking at you. No telegraphing is required for them. Gunships also alert you to their attacks via a sound que, so you know when to dodge their missiles. They also miss if you shoot them when the sound que begins. The hidden enemy modifiers would also be fine so long as I just knew about it before picking a load out.
Telegraphing isn't just to tell you that an enemy will attack, it's to tell you the timing of the attack so you can react, and everything that can instantly kill you (or double tap you while you're helplessly ragdolled) needs telegraphing, especially if there's not enough time from the moment the weapon is fired to when contact is made to: see the attack, process where it's going to land, and hit the dive button. With how bad visibility in the game is, the second ordinance starts coming down, oftentimes the only thing you can see is the enemy's lasers, or at best the enemy's silhouettes. I assume by IVF turret you mean the command bunker, which is, out of all enemies, the one that needs it the most by far save for *maybe* the rocket strider. It's a fast moving projectile that can kill you from full health, even with heavy extra padding armor and a shield backpack, since it will ragdoll you and kill you with the followup shots before you can actually react or stim. And that's on an enemy that blends in incredibly well into their environment even in good visibility. Contrast them with the cannon turret which sticks out like a sore thumb, has a light near the barrel, and flashes before they shoot. Just adding a red light to them like other automatons have, and a brief red flash like tank turrets have would suffice.
I disagree the rocket strider does not need telegraphing you just need experience because almost always when first encountering a rocket strider within 10 or so seconds it will fire its rocket and almost always it stands still and does not fire its lasers right before doing this.
@@GamerKiwi lol yeah the bunker turrets are the worst for me. But I've started to learn how to deal with them, aka examine the base *really really carefully* and snipe that shit with a recoilless rifle from max range before approaching. Also never just run around a corner, cause of the 'wtf' turrets randomly hiding behind corners in fortresses lol.
@@GamerKiwi game would be easy baby mode and not fun anymore. If you can’t handle it just play on easier difficulty. I don’t need or want the game to hold my hand going “oh look the enemy is about to shoot you! Get into cover!” I already know to stay in cover when approaching and fighting bots, cause my frontal lobe didn’t stop development after three years of age like someone’s seems too have.
the only real complaint I have about the automaton telegraphs is with the new enemies. the rocket fire is dodgeable at range but when you're close they just kill you instantly and there's nothing you can do about it. as for everything else, there's actually telegraphs but they're hard to notice. for normal enemies, its just kinda when they're pointing their guns at you which sounds bad but no enemy leads their shots so its not as hard to deal with as you'd think. as for command bunker turrets, they can't fire at you when you're close and they don't notice you unless you shoot at them or you get spotted by a different enemy. hulks can be a problem too but again they don't lead their shots so you can usually escape pretty easy if you're staying mobile. heavy devastators are probably the worst offender outside of the new enemies, but there are two tips; first, they get more accurate as they spin up so you have some warning before they start to murder you, and second, they become a lot less accurate if you shoot in their general direction. this applies to everything on the bot front save for tanks and turrets so its good to keep in mind. the biggest problem i see people doing when swapping from bugs to bots is simply engaging recons. the little bots are a lot more threatening than they look and a bot drop is significantly harder to deal with than a bug breach. take your time, go in carefully, and when you need to engage, chase a strategem because if you can clear out the little guys you wont need to worry about reinforcements.
I mean, what type of war would it be if the enemy wasn't trying to win, right. I think everything's fine and makes sense. It's just that getting one shot by grunts is a little wild to me, considering we got armor.
@jovifidelis Takes a bit of luck and practice, but I do it all the time. If it doesn't look human or doesn't have a tag, I'll go as far as to test my savior of the free with an impact grenade at point blank just so my team can clear that corner and kill the jammer. And if I survive the blast, now the jammer is clear and I can just stim up and finish it myself.
"I can't believe the enemy that is looking at me will shoot at me!" is what this video sounds like as well as a general lack of awareness look around, ping the enemies so you and your team remembers they exist out of POV
I Disagree, most enemies on bots are inaccurate, hulks are inaccurate except they ragdoll you leaving you vulnerable, rocket striders always inaccurate except the blast radius will ragdoll you anyway. The problem is with ragdolling, not the enemies themself.
I think you have a point but I disagree with your solution: The solution with the automatons is already implemented, just not in a practical way, the 'telegraph' should be their lack of accuracy, they should start shooting with a 0 chance to hit then gain more accuracy as they fire, that way you know you're getting hit and can react and adapt, but currently they can just headshot with the first shot then miss the 30 next. Plus, the way they 'miss' its currently also poorly implemented, many times you're not even aware they're shooting you until they hit, it's like game runs a chance of hitting or not instead of actually shooting closer to the target each time letting you know you are in danger.
I as a person who mains bots and only plays super helldive with almost 400 hours in the game I do acknowledge the fact that many bots have unfair wind up times thats why you should not look for the wind up time if a bot is pointing its gun at you hide or kill them dont wait for anything or you will die and in helldivers 2 death is frequent and common so its okay for that to happen. Also the game tells you this when it shows you tips when diving into missions aka the three c which are cover courage and more cover this is the best tutorial for the bots imaginable it teaches you that you need cover but you also need not be afraid to die. So in conclusion the bots are unfair but manageable running up to them and trying to dodge LASERS AND ROCKETS does not work you need to take COVER this design ultimately makes the bots fun for me if it dosent for you thats fine but you cant say they have issues with design when you simply have to play the game differently. (Edit also I disagree the with your belief about the rocket strider as it does not need telegraphing you just need experience because almost always when first encountering a rocket strider within 10 or so seconds it will fire its rocket and almost always it stands still and does not fire its lasers right before doing this and will angle it head towards as seen in your video (4:05) Also at 5:23 you walked right into the line of fire of the rocket strider . Also what are talking about with the barrage tank I think I have died to it once maybe I really dont know what your talking about with that being a problem.
Bunker turrets and rocket striders are easily the worst offenders. I would love if there was a short pre-fire animation for the rocket striders of white smoke coming out of the thrusters as they amped up to launch. Playing around that timing for a dive, stagger, or kill would make fighting them feel WAY better.
Is it wrong that i thought this was a sh*tpost at first, where you would be talking about how the automatons were badly designed literally. "I understand that a heat sink is needed and that you need to reinforce the front but why would you have the heatsink SO exsposed like that. It would be easier to size down a little so you're heatsinks would be placed inside the body then fanned out with tiny vents instead of the GIANT GLOWING SLAG OF METAL! The only saving grace it gets is that the hulk is ment to be a backline unit, meaning its back isn't shown often. Still doesn't save the hulk insinerator!"
It does seem a bit strange to me how the bot faction seems to follow two principles in its design, but doesn't stick to both consistently, often omitting one for the other. On the one hand, there's plenty of attacks that do have a telegraph, be it animation or audio based: - Rocket Devastators take a stance before firing a volley (they also have a laser weapon that follows the second principle) - Rocket Raiders, same as above (and nothing else) - Cannon Turrets and Tanks aim, flash and shoot (for Tanks specifically, they also have a laser weapon that follows the second principle) - Gunships you can clearly hear the barrage of rockets being fired, and they always aim to predict your movement, so you merely need to move in the opposite direction (also same as the Rocket Dev and Tank; side note: your issue with their light might honestly just stem from your graphics settings, I've never had any problems with it, though granted I play with most things on low since too much visual noise is distracting) - Rocket Tanks rear up and take aim when shooting upwards ala mortar (not so when aiming directly at you) - Flamethrower Hulks have a windup and a predetermined pattern in how they use it On the other hand, bots with laser weapons tend to attack in bursts, following a pattern without a windup. This applies to every bot enemy with a laser weapon, be it a trooper, devastator, tank, with the egregious addition of the Rocket Strider and Tank. Thing is that laser weapons miss quite a bit and (most of them) have no ragdolling involved. The outliers are felt a lot more, namely the rapid fire turrets, Hulks with cannons and rocket units which I definitely think should instead belong to the telegraphed category (typically, the harder an enemy attack hits, the more well known that has to be made to the player). The other issue there is how since the last update, laser weapons do 25% more damage and we take more overall damage everywhere that isn't the head, so chip damage isn't exactly something you can shrug off anymore, with most bots having the ability to kill you in less than half a second if their shots randomly happen to be accurate (anyone who has played against the bots knows how inconsistent their accuracy is in general). If I had to compare it to another game that does this excellently, it'd be WH40K Darktide, where ranged chaff does exactly what you said: they perform a quick flash right before shooting, but also a sound effect, letting you know that you're about to be attacked in case an enemy snuck up on you. Plus, more dangerous enemies, called specialists in that game, always spawn and attack with a distinct sound effect that lets you know that specific enemy is there in the middle of the chaos. And if you want a closer comparison to Helldivers 2, you need simply look at Helldivers 1. Where every single ranged enemy, without exception, either has a windup animation, or the attack itself is slow and very easy to see.
Your criticisms of the bugs suggest you want a very rigid behavior from the enemy so perfect play is possible. I think this game is supposed to be chaotic. Getting knocked around to death is fine when your team can save you from this fate. If you choose to go alone (i do as well, so not putting you down for that) you just have to accept that things like a charger's shellshock effect is going to be more lethal for you. As for the bots not having telegraphs, a tank pointing its gun at you is the telegraph. A hulk is basically a big tank whose arms barely move, so it's crystal clear what direction the danger is. Bots are more "war-like". Soldiers don't yell "firing!" before they open up. With game knowledge you can identify the enemy gun emplacements and alter your approach. Like 5:54 you're saying you can't tell if the scout strider is going to fire a rocket or laser, when the answer was "you're boned" because you have two rocket devastators and the strider aiming at you. And you run toward them. The correct answer was either run behind cover or at the very least dive back. Prone gives explosive resist and you could have gotten a bit more range on them. If they're aiming at you, you better already be dealing with it in some way. I will agree with the gunship's light and the nearly single enemy type spawn thing. The overabundance of negative modifiers is also not fun. I have previously suggested that those mods should be selectable by host for bonuses.
i think he handled that encounter pretty optimally TBH. getting to the base of the cliff means he can use that as cover. the cover he was already next to was that one little MG nest, which seemed super low, and the enemies were up on the rock. I doubt that cover would have protected him from even the lasers, let alone the rockets but yeah, he was boned because he landed right in the field of fire of a bunch of hard hitting enemies already on a vantage point. telegraphing or no he was lucky to have survived. just the luck of the draw
I'm glad someone is talking about the enemy constellation mechanic. I'm tired of dropping into bug missions only for it to be "Oops! All Bile Spewers!" and no one has the means to deal with them.
The tell of when an automaton is about to fire is when they are staring at you you have oh shit seconds until your about to die that’s what makes them fun
If rocket plumes eminated out of the back of all rocket launchers npc's just before they fire'd those rockets off, that would solve a LOT of the telegraphing issues.
The amount of people in this comment section siting “they’re aiming at you” as a proper telegraph is baffling when the design of new enemies is clearly contradicting with all the enemies that the game shipped with. Rocket Devastator gets into a stance to fire a burst of missiles that will flop you around and deal 25 damage at most while rocket strider drive-by’s you with a missile that one-shots you.
Yes but they only appear in more difficult missions when you should have learned TO GET INTO COVER. If you can’t get the hint to allways approach bots from behind something else and to only start engagements when you have cover….literally step into the bot fabricator because you are a bot. That too hard for you? Bring your own cover. Bubble shield, smoke screens, smoke stratagems, shield backpack. If a machine gun is firing at you, the first five shots or so usually miss, there is your telegraph now dive.
Rocket Striders rockets are inaccurate i can stand still and they will shoot 10 rockets bypassing me, the probelm is, if there is a wall behind me or they are at high ground, the blast will destroy me ragdoll will finish me
This is fair because when rocket striders are going to fire its missile at you it almost always within in the first 10 seconds of detection while rocket devastates are very arbitrary on when and when not they will fire their rockets.
Also sometimes when you stun a charger they will just go from completely still, to fucking mach 3 charging into you, instantly killing you. It looks like the fucker just rubberbands into you
They do have a mechanic where if you are shooting at them their accuracy goes down the toilet. So just keep firing in that direction and they revert to suppressing fire. If I had to guess they have it like that for more cinematic gameplay
I understand some of these criticisms but overall I have little difficulty on either fronts playing at level 10 so maybe its just the more you play the better you get at understanding how to counter enemies
yup - a few more experienced bot players have already commented, but (a) if something is looking at you, it's time to already be somewhere else; and (b) kill problematic enemies like striders, rocket tanks before they have a chance to actually do anything bad. Same applies to detector towers, mortar emplacements, gunship bases. I've always targeted scout striders first, even before rocket striders became a thing, because they will run you down across the map and have pretty accurate aim once they get locked in. Now with rocket striders it's the same thing, you (or someone with an AMR, or your sentries) need to kill them before they get a chance to start firing rockets at you indiscriminately. There's about a 3-5 second window before they fire their first rocket, that's when you need to either stagger them or get behind cover.
The enemy variety I disagree with, it's cool to change it up but all AH needs to do is just tell the players what enemies are most likely to appear, and plan ahead. It's unnecessary to remove it otherwise the game would become more stale and metas will appear again.
Tf hell no that will make it too easy what u want a big red notic that this enemy is coming so you can put on ur pants its a war you ain't supposed to see the enemies from a mile but you have to expect and overcome that's what makes u a helldivers not baby diverse
“The rocket robot shot a rocket at me and I’m confused” That’s crazy because it’s almost like it’s a robot designed to find you and shoot rockets at you….. If only it were 15 feet tall with fragile legs it would be easier to kill it….
The use of cover more effectively is more important on the bot front. Because they are shooting lasers I don’t think reactively dodging is as much the intended gameplay as much as focusing on not being ‘seen’ so much
The enemy is under no obligation to announce their attacks; I think that actually makes sense. My main complaint is the ridiculous ragdolling. Just knock me down, and kill me or let me try again.
6:35 Bro do you have any idea how much you could see on a dif. 7 and greater mission if every ranged attack was announced with a flash. That's right nothing. It'd be like looking straight into the sun.
I think hulks need to sound as heavy as they are (why is the 40 ton death machine walking silently?) and that rocket striders actually can blow me. I can deal with the lack of telegraph on every other enemy but the rocket striders genuinely drive me up a wall. The game will just casually spawn 8 of em and any of those can just casually 1 hit you from close to far range with zero heads up.
Honestly I like that the bots have minimal choreography with their attacks it makes more sense since actual guns also don't have any and they're just using guns
@@declicitous1763 Gabe Newell: "I have never thought to myself that realism is fun" people don't understand that fun>realism every time. This isn't a simulator its a game.
@@trevstrevsdon’t see how you can say that when plenty of games have guns show a glint or flash before shooting, just like the turret towers and tank barrels in this game. It’s literally in the game already. Not saying every bot weapon needs a flash, just that to say the mechanic is “mind boggling stupid” is a dumb argument.
The lack of telegraphing is what makes it all so intense. And that's good. You basically want the devs to make bots easier. It's already easy enough as it is with an experienced 4 man squad. The moment they actually listen to your requests, you are going to complain the game is too easy.
Difficulty can be added back in other ways if necessary. You morons that want the game to be hard in dumb ways are awful at game design and almost sunk the game. Hilarious.
I actually like the lack of enemy shooting telegraph, because just like in real life and the player, you don't have much telegraph. It makes it feel more impactful and realistic for everyone you fight in my opinion.
The rocket strider is the worst culprit. Unlike rocket devastator, it doesn't have ANY telegraph, and its rockets are pretty much one hit kills or it'll launch you five miles away. Edit: Also, here's the WORST part, the missiles are almost completely SILENT
I disagree the rocket strider does not need telegraphing you just need experience because almost always when first encountering a rocket strider within 10 or so seconds it will fire its rocket and almost always it stands still and does not fire its lasers right before doing this.
@@lamoley100 you can say that with any enemies. "Experience" doesn't negate the fact that rocket striders are badly designed. And no, they fire anytime they want, they don't need to stand still or stop shooting laser, which isn't even enough indicator.
@@LeadMetal82 No they cant fire their lasers while firing their rocket they just cant do that. Also be prepared because they will almost always fire within 10 seconded of them first detecting you.
@@LeadMetal82 It should not be implimented because it has no need to because rocket devastator are a lot more random with their firing patterns rocket striders are highly predictable in the 10 first seconeds of detection they are all but garunted to fire at with their rockets while rocket devastores are far more random with this.
Heavy armor negates most of the damage from bots. So bugs are about judging the enemy patterns and bots are more about equipment and how you engage them. It's good game design imo when you need to be flexible in your approach to fighting multiple types of enemies.
I saw your video, but didnt click on it because the video answer was in the thumbnail. But then upon further thought, I wanted to come back here and say this that I appreciate it. I might also watch the video now despite knowing the answer.
Aside from rocket scout walker I don't believe anything else is worth fixing. The deaths that happen from these issues are too few whenever I'm playing, I check my map, and the large number of enemies don't spawn out of nowhere often anymore, so I still get the time to position myself or engage them before they can shoot all at once.
Personally I find the increased difficulty of bots more fun and requires you to think a bit more and use the environment to you're advantage. It sounds to me like you just want bots to be easy mode. If you are bold enough to be running light armor on bots, getting 1 shot is inevitable. Take a shield backpack, problem solved. Also everything IS telegraphed. If they are pointing their guns at you, they are going to shoot at you. There should not be a need to also have a 'dodge now' light on every enemy. You are running around a lot without looking where you are going, you're problem is a lack of situational awareness. You have a minimap that tells you where enemies are and somehow you keep getting blindsided by 10ft tall striders. Look around, plan where you are going, keep track of where enemies are before you enter an area, look for good fall back points and avoid open areas with long lines of site.
I absolutely love bots, it feels so military operation but I DESPISE rocket striders flinging me out of cover infront of a scorcher. And barrage tanks flinging me off cover outside mission radius
automatons are designed to need a completely different approach than the bugs, they're high intelligence, ranged, unpredictable and heavy armor, I don't find an issue with lack of telegraphing, ragdolling tho, that's the issue all across the game
Here is what an added rocket strider telegraph would be like: “Greetings, Super Earth Scum! I am your friendly neighborhood rocket strider here, about to un-alive you and liberate you from your inferior flesh. Here I go!” Me: *proceeds to respawn* 1. Rocket striders have slow, white-colored missiles, which will one-tap you. A large portion of the time, you will be engaging these enemies at close range. CLOSE RANGE. A telegraphed attack is meaningless if the projectile is faster than your ability to dive out of the way. The FARTHER AWAY you are, the more helpful a telegraphed attack becomes. Less distance = More dangerous. More distance = Less dangerous. 2. You successfully negate a direct hit from a Rocket strider by using its newly-added telegraph to narrowly dive out of the way, in a perpendicular direction. The missile hits the ground, close to you, and sends you flying, into the rag-doll state. You then impact against a boulder, and die upon contact with it. (1) You were flying too fast, (2) you didn’t preemptively stim yourself, (3) you didn’t choose extra-padded or reinforced/fortified armor, and (4) you didn’t choose the vitality booster, which has now monopolized and dominated the booster selection when fighting the bots. I doubt having your teammate bring experimental infusion, as an addition, along with your appropriate armor + vitality booster, will give you the extra damage reduction needed to survive anyways. MY PROPOSAL: 1. Rocket Striders have an added telegraph, as a small, side-mounted, projectile-path laser scope, SIMILAR TO THAT OF THE FACTORY STRIDER GATLING GUNS, that briefly “turns on” before firing the rocket. When turned off, at close range, it will only use its laser attack. 2. Rocket Striders have an audible SOUND CUE for when they turn on their TARGETING LASER SCOPE, used for its rocket attack. Maybe it could sound like a metallic switch-on noise, coupled with an underlying, low humming/buzzing tone. 3. Rocket Striders ONLY shoot LASERS, unless the helldiver is at a long enough range, in which it then SWITCHES MODES to ROCKET MODE. 4. Rocket Striders are notoriously infamous for chasing down players over long stretches of the map, in a very aggressive fashion. Please add the following changes: (1). Rocket Striders, when out of rockets, cannot use their rocket attack (seems like they still can shoot rockets at you, even when you see they are out of rockets). (2). ADD A NEW ENEMY INTO THE GAME that can MATCH THE MOVEMENT SPEED of the Rocket Strider, which will assume the role of “chasing” down a helldiver (AUTOMATON DOGS???). Make the ROCKET STRIDER MOVEMENT SPEED SLIGHTLY SLOWER, but not too slow, to allow helldivers to out-run them when attempting to disengage. Just my thoughts. -SES Song of Victory
Will agree with some points and disagree with others. I have more fun with bots than the bugs because of the sheer challenge that I have against them. 1. Treat the bots like a fighting game. A lot of attacks in fighting games don’t telegraph their moves before they actually use the move, which then gives you milliseconds to react. What the game expects you to do is predict and position yourself properly to intercept/counter the move. 2. Let’s apply to the bots, specially the rocket hulks. Its rockets are not telegraphed and you don’t have a visual or sound queue on when it’s gonna fire. What you do have instead is timing and situational awareness. When you engage with a hulk that has rockets, you don’t just run to him and expect to “dodge” the rockets by waiting for some telegraphed animation. You purposely bait the rocket so that you can then peek him or get close enough that he can’t fire back. The way to play bots is to not be primarily reactive. That’s how bug gameplay works. For bots, you have to be primarily proactive meaning that you have to put yourself in situations where you have the advantage over gunfights, advantages where even the non telegraphed attacks won’t reach or deal enough damage to matter. 3. This brings me to my next point. The reason why the bot mission doesn’t have the fog modifier is because it would ruin the bot gameplay. One of the most important things to consider when playing against bots is positioning. The minimap is here for that and one of the boosters is specifically made for this type of gameplay. You’re not reactive like against the bugs where if you run into enemies, you just kill them. Against bots, if you accidentally run into enemies, you’re fucked. That means a lot of the gameplay focus is about preplanning your approach. If the bots started getting telegraphed attacks that you can just dodge by just seeing it, you lose a huge aspect of the proactive gameplay because everyone would just play the bots like they play the bugs: run around, run into enemies, shoot them down with very little risk. 4. The way the bot side balances this lack of telegraphy from enemies is by having them walk very slow. Hulk, devastators, factory striders (combined with its size) are very slow enemies which gives you enough time to deal with them before they get within the danger zone. Even the gunships are far enough from the ground that you can see and dodge the rockets but more importantly, the gunships actually makes noise when they fire the rockets and because they’re not close to ground, you have more than enough time to dodge the rockets the moment you hear the deploying sound. I also find the rockets to be slower than devastators. I don’t know if the light on them is purely made for you to prioritise the sound aspect of it but even if they remove the red light, it won’t change much since hardcore players are already expecting rockets. One of the strategies against them is to keep moving and bait their rockets. This once again encourages proactive gameplay where you’re not waiting for them to fire the rockets to dodge. You’re proactively baiting their rockets and you can tell when they’ll fire just like the other enemies, TIMING and PREDICTION like in a fighting game. 5. Now I will address the elephants in the room. Rocket strider, those ones need to go. The biggest difference between those and rocket devastators is that rocket strider will catch up to you very quickly and once they’re in your los, they’ll just fire the one hit rocket. If they were very slow to catch up to you, it wouldn’t be a problem because you’ll then play the same baiting game as you do the other bots. But because they’re so quick, they’ll push you out of position before you can even bait and take them out. We’ll already have enemies who push us out of cover. We don’t need one that can fire one hit kill rockets from any distance including close distance. It gets even worse when there’s multiple and is honestly the only bot enemy I would like to see some telegraphed animation. 6. The other issue is the accuracy of the enemy and how they’re sometimes not linked to each other. There was that one time where I met a bunch of small grunts and usually you feel comfortable getting close to them and tank a few shots here and there. But this time, they all decided to shoot me in the head consecutively and it was an instant death, from small grunts. I don’t have issues dealing with them but I think there needs to be a better system that calculates the probability of getting gang headshotted by random grunts specially the one that runs towards you or jet packs to you. The game encourages cover and that’s great but imagine playing cod, you peek out of cover, and all the enemies decide to shoot you in the head at the same time. Overall, I wouldn’t add telegraph animation to every enemies because it’ll sincerely ruin the proactive part of the gameplay. I don’t need the front turrets of a factory strider to shine before shooting because you shouldn’t be in front of them to begin with. Besides, what’s the point of adding telegraphed animation/pointers to attacks you can’t even dodge? But for enemies that are quick to close in the distance and have the same firepower as the strongest enemies in the game, like the rocket strider, either remove the rockets or add some telegraphed animation. Also fix the bug where the rockets don’t explode if I use a laser cannon on it.
I think your comment might be my favorite I've read so far. I appreciate the depth you went into with your response. I agree with everything you've said. Since reading the comments on this video, I've changed my mindset on the game a lot. I like your comparison to a fighting game a lot, and I agree that being proactive is what you need to do against the bots. This video is honestly a really poorly made and rushed video, and I did not convey my points clearly at all. I've adjusted my process for making videos and have promised myself to spend more time on each video going forward. I think what I was trying to get at was, "If the bots are going to continue to do this much damage, then we should be able to react like in other games with high damage. Otherwise, revert the damage changes." But obviously, nothing like that was stated in the video, and I'm not even sure that I agree with that take currently. Given the recent 60 day conclusion patch, I feel as though everything is in an overall pretty good spot. Like you stated, I'd still say that something needs to be done about the rocket striders. Maybe they could exclusively fire the rockets at a long enough distance? Or maybe just swap the projectile for the same one as as the rocket devastators? (Probably not though, that might affect our ability to shoot them.) Now that some of the damage has been changed, the bots targeting has been adjusted, and I've changed my mindset, I'm having more fun than ever against the bots and am always looking forward to diving again whenever I have free time. Once again, I appreciate your time. Have a good day!
If the rocket striders had a wind up animation like how the rocket devs have to brace to shoot they would certainly be easier to counter. A big thing that would really help is more sound cues for everything, tanks and hulks should make tons of noise when moving around.
I mostly agree, knowing what the enemy is doing is important and I suspect we will actually have a much better idea once the shiny bots roll out. Something that really worked for Halo is that enemies has a very colorful design, with details in places that are only visible from specific angles. So if they are facing you in particular, you will definitely know. Also, when surprised by you, enemies will often make a sort of startled or call-out animation; giving the player a chance to get a few shots in before the enemy can return fire. Meanwhile, in Helldivers a surprise attack doesn't do much unless it instantly kills an important target, as every other enemy will immediately know where you are and snap shot you like they're CSGO no-lifers.
not quite, the way the ai works especially when alerting a base out of sight, is they will fire in the general direction of the attack until you are locked onto, which is why if you manage to sneak away and hide they will investigate but only have a chance of finding you
I think by far the epitome of this (bad) design is the Rocket Strider. I guarantee by this being a 10min video that it won't go into nearly enough detail as to just how badly they are designed, from their weakpoints, to their stats, to how they are included in the game. There better be a whole section on those (edit: there was) but you need at least 40 minutes to fully break down how heinous those things are. You can have a game where you get as many Rocket Striders as you do Devastators. It's actually insane!!! The thing is you're dead right, all of this is perfectly salvageable with just a little bit of extra polish. Certainly nothing on the level of reworking enemies completely like they did with the Hulk Bruiser. Even then, that was argaubly an okay change as at least the laser cannon has a pattern of 4 shots you can identify. But somehow AH have zero sense for audio design and most big enemies just make idle sounds. Truly this game is a conundrum I'd still rather ride rockets than have 30 hunters on me 24/7, but it's puzzling how often you have to rely on enemies being blind to get out of trouble. IIRC there's workings of an enemy brood system somewhere in the game so one day you'll know what you're getting into.
counter-point: bots are intended to be tackled in a sort of rudimentary tactical-shooter playstyle. You don't get the audio/visual cues in the same way you rarely see/hear anyone shooting you until you're already dead, al'la ARMA. Granting this is NOT a milsim - the point I am making here is that it is BECAUSE bots don't have cues the player can react to (like bugs) is what sets them apart as a unique faction. They require a very different tactics, and tools. I assume the opposite position. I enjoy fighting bots. Bugs, not to so much. I'm not sure I would go so far to say bugs have a design fault. Different threats. Different concerns. Ever present risk of flying instant death exists in real life. I'm not saying "because realism" as justification. I'm simply saying that bots benefit from modern military doctrine and squad tactics for the same reason. Taking every advantage you can to mitigate the risk of instant death is the name of the game. Sometimes how to accomplish that isn't so obvious and often the consequence of decisions made 5 minutes ago (scouting), keeping cool, and maintaining situational awareness. They're just very different challenges. But your considerations are interesting. Given I haven't played in months, I'd happily concede maybe the designers are better suited catering to a more narrow audience that readily enjoys the game.
7:30 Thing is, in Deep Rock Galactic, you never get the full roster of enemies in a mission, the game picks some, and only they show up (With some exceptions, but that's how it generally works).
Haven’t fully watched but I think the bots have a rhythm band for one shots they have subtle but obvious telegraphing. Those heavy devs are annoying af but they feel like they have half the health of normal devs when hitting shots
1. Skill issue 2. As a LOADING SCREEN TIP SAID "If you are facing automatons, remember the three C's: cover, courage and more cover", and in all of your clips you are ignoring it, also, oneshots with light armor? Use heavy or medium then! Fortified reduces damage taken from explosions and every AoE attack they have, so the bunker turrets, hulk bruiser bigger cannon, and every explosion, which they have a shit ton of. You are complaining that bots use different tactics and require to treat them differently than bugs just because you refuse to learn. The thing about automatons, is they are robots and do things like humans do, you ain't gonna shout where you are in hide and seek, are you? Anyways, yeah, skill issue, I'd recommend you see the enemy, choose the approach direction, the way you gonna deal with them and what if something goes wrong. Kind of like a defence onion (or whatever it's called), where every layer is a backup. Don't be seen, if seen, don't get hit, if seen, kill before get hit, if hit, take less damage etc.
How is it skill issue if you can’t tell which bot is gonna attack you first? bugs are easy because the closet will attack you for 99% all the time bugs simply don’t follow rule which is ok every third and fps games do that but they utilise cover efficiently. One thing the creator of the video didn’t say is that even when behind cover get hit by cannon turret or anything with a huge explosion radius will simply just push you back out of cover leaving you exposed. Helldivers 2 simply doesn’t utilise cover as well as other games it’s just meant to trick you not taking cover because it’s useless. It’s obvious you didnt play the game or you chose the difficulty below 7
A big problem with the game is the devs had an idea for how it should play but didn't hand-hold hoping people would figure it out. People didn't figure it out and complained until they had to change the game. Helldivers 2 shares a lot of DNA with Metal gear games. Enemies spot you and you have a moment to take them out before an alert, alerts call in reinforcements and continued fighting usually snowballs indefinitely. But people thought this was a horde shooter so their mindset isn't "Break contact and do objectives" it's "Kill all the things!". This is why guns were underpowered and strikes were on long cooldowns, this is why spotting a patrol warns "Patrol here" and why certain enemies alert quicker than others and telegraph it giving you a brief second if you haven't taken them down before they spotted you. Also the reason for smoke, which practically no one uses, despite it being an amazing tool to break contact, accomplish objectives, regroup, people didn't think it worked because the Bots realistically keep firing into it (but not at you, randomly and slower) while bugs keep heading to your last known position and then "Sniff around'. If you've already gotten a decent distance away and especially from hunters, you may have made a clean break. Helldivers is an action/stealth game that expected people to figure it out. They didn't.
Funny you mention deep rock galactic enime spawns, they have a system where certain bugs won't spawn every time, on haz 5 3 of 6 types of bugs can spawn, grabbers, goo bombers, bulk detonators, warden, menance, and shell back. Only 3 out of the 6 will spawn on any haz 5 mission.
Hi there, I wanted to say that after watching your video I agree with most of your points on the Automatons and that they really need to work on the Rocket Striders, Barrage Tanks, Hulk Bruisers and Heavy Devastators the most. Rocket Striders, I absolutely hate this enemy, there is no cue for when they shoot their rocket, so if they spot you before you notice them you can and will be sniped. You can also hide behind cover like a solid wrong and the rocket can ragdoll you out of there which is horrible since on higher difficulties there are usually other bots shooting at you (the worst being the heavy devastator. I've also noticed that you can use the railgun and hit the rocket but it just knocks off the rocket slot instead of exploding, you can sometimes shoot the head clean off with railgun and it's still alive and able to walk and shoot the rocket at you. The weak points aren't as obvious for this enemy either as I've notice it's best to destroy one of the lefts to disable it without worries. Lastly there are just too many of these enemies walking around. The Barrage Tank, also doesn't have a clear weak spot and is just there to cause even more ragdoll or one shots, it's already hard to take in all the chaos when there are 2 patrols firing at you so you won't have time to look in the air and see where the rocket will land. Most of the time you just have guess and run away but the rocket can either land on you killing you or near you ragdolling you into a group of bots. It's just a really annoying enemy to face while dealing with everything else. Heavy Devastators, these are the absolute worst enemies on the bot front in my opinion, there machine gun does not stop firing once they are aggroed and they are way too accurate. I've seen a squad drop in on an eradicate mission and we landed in front of a heavy devastator and all of us got gunned down before we could even react. For an enemy with a shield on it's left arm you'd think that would be safe side to be on, but no they can shoot through the shield at times or they turn really quickly. It's just not fun dealing with them especially if you are in an open flat area, not to mention they don't stop chasing or firing at you even if you are a good distance away. Additionally, their shield is way too strong, you can use a recoilless rocket to split a drop ship in half but if you hit the shield with the rocket it just staggers them. Hulk Bruisers, this enemy received a command bunker turret on it's left arm and is way too accurate with it. As soon as it spots you there is no warning, it will shoot 3-4 shots from that turret which can either one shot or 2 shot you. The annoying thing is that it staggers you a lot, basically stun locking you until you die or you luckily survive, you pretty much have to spot them and deal with them immediately while they are backed up by Rocket striders, Heavy Devastators and Rocket Devastators. The worst part is that they are usually in patrols which spawn nearby, so you can easily bend the corner and boom stun locked to death. Sorry for the long rant but those are just stuff I've noticed and wanted to add, Arrowhead needs to tone done the accuracy for some of these bots while also fixing those white rockets. The bots are my preferred faction to fight but I think you get a lot of cheap deaths because of how some of these units function.
I like fighting automatons because killing something simple like a heavy/docket devastator feels more rewarding due to having less if them, i usually compare the heavy devastator to a bile spewer, but because theres usually less devastators compared to the bile spewers, it feels better to kill because it has a heavier impact on how powerful the automaton army is, meanwhile i could kill 4 bile spewers and turn around only to see 7 more trying to kill me, not to mention the sheer number if high mobility, fast attacking, high damage enemies like the the Hunter that come in packs of like 12+ are just so annoying and make deaths to them just feel horrible
My friend hates Marauders and whenever they are on turrets. The sudden speed at which they just eliminate your hp, and how inconsistent it is with basically either missing you for 3 seconds or just immediately gunning you down, is annoying without a doubt. I like Rocket Devastators. The basic fire with their right arm does little damage so it's a non issue to me, when they fire rockets they stand still and widen their stance. If it made a loud noise like it was screaming (like a Fus Ro Dah but instead of a scream causing an unrelenting force it's 4 rockets) it would be a much better audio queue. But aside from that, yeah I agree the readability on their attacks is awful. Bruiser Hulks are the bane of my existence atm
There’s a broader discussion about how necessary “realism” is for sci-fi/fantasy games… yes it wouldn’t make sense for real world militaries to telegraph their attacks lol but in a game I think it makes perfect sense to have the strongest abilities be telegraphed a little bit so the players can respond appropriately and feel cool while doing it haha
Lack of pre-mission telegraphing I 100% agree on. Helldivers 2 issue, to my mind, is missions running together. Your note of wanting to fight everything all at once is the reason I abandoned ship - however your suggestion for what I viewed as minor variations in spawns to be presented as visible mission modifiers is one thing I have wanted since the beginning. We have something of a loot game, but are given very very very little for players to consider before diving. People gear to generally be effective, because there is basically nothing to prepare for specifically... except everything. Enemy weighted spawns as mission modifiers would bring me back to the game.... at least for a bit until some other shortcomings in the mission design running together start to wear thin, but AT LEAST it would facilitate a nice feedback loop of running specialized load outs (from time to time), and gathering up some of the lesser wanted Warbond kit for those odd instances they might function as hard counters.
honestly I agree, only 2 bots I have noticed that telagraph their attack is the rocket trooper, and rocket devastator, since both tense and the trooper raises their rocket launcher, but I like it like that, it reminds me I am not a main character, I shouldn't rush bots who could open fire at any moment
While telegraphing might help you survive a 1 or 3 enemy encounter when there are multiple rocket and tank enemies, which there always are, it won't matter. I run Super Helldive bots all day long and never die more then a few time a mission if at all. The number one one reason I see most people fail in pugs is due to a poor loadout. You need to deal with heavy enemies immediately and have a primary that can stagger the fodder. Turrets excel in keeping the horde thined out or watching your back. Med to heavy armor with explosive resistance will also stop most thing from one hit killing you other then the big turrets that do telegraph.
i dont care about no telegraph, like others said the telegraph is them turning towards you since they do turn pretty slow, i just wish the rocket striders didnt send me 50 feet away from the cover im using after they hit the cover...
I propose that for the reinforced scout striders, they add a small flash for the main guns, and if they're about to fire their rockets, they should stomp and lock into the ground (kind of like the sentry from ultrakill) and have maybe a half a second charge on that rocket where we can see the fuel ignite before firing I think It would make it both visually interesting as well as give the enemy a drawback for using their strongest weapon
I honestly love tilted spawn tables, but for the love of democracy make it visible before missions as a modifier...it honestly sucks when you take an arc thrower and it's all nursing spewers, or take RR and oops all pouncers. The not-funness of taking the wrong weapon type in Helldivers is higher than for DRG or Killing Floor, where basically everything is viable.
I actually prefer bot mechanic. Not telegraphing attack makes bot front much more wild and unpredictable, kinda like real war. You basically never know when and where will the bullet with your name on it come from. Sometimes you get slaughtered withouth warning and there's really not much you can do. It makes the bot front much more brutal experience and show that sometimes in life there is nothing but luck to save you. I kinda enjoy that. Keeps things fresh and scary.
Original comment: I have been reading all of your comments and I just want to say that I appreciate all of the very thoughtful criticism. I have taken it into consideration and will be approaching the game with a different mindset going forward. I appreciate everyone who has given me the time of day whether you agreed or disagreed with me in this video. I wish you all a good day!
Edit: I am editing this comment to reflect my current opinion of the game, as I no longer agree with the points made in this video.
Since reading the comments on this video, I've changed my mindset on the game a lot, and I agree that being proactive is what you need to do against the bots.
After reflecting on it, I've realized that this video is honestly a really poorly made and rushed video, and I did not convey my points clearly at all. I've adjusted my process for making videos and have promised myself to spend more time on each video going forward to ensure that I am stating my points clearly and giving proper examples for what I am talking about. I think what I was trying to get at in this video was, "If the bots are going to continue to do this much damage, then we should be able to react like in other games with high damage. Otherwise, revert the damage changes." But obviously, nothing like that was stated in the video, and I'm not even sure that I agree with that take currently. Honestly, I think my only problem was with the rocket striders, and I way overblew my frustration and directed it towards the bots as a whole, such as with the gunship light (honestly, it's fine. I really don't know why I thought I should've include that segment in the video). I also am and always was aware of how to utilize cover against bots (hell, I'd argue that this game made me better at other games because of the proactive mindset it put me in), but I purposely made the decision to go out of my way to get hit for examples of the damage that we take. This was wrong of me to do and comes across as sloppy at best and malicious towards the game at worst, and for that, I apologize.
Given the recent 60 day conclusion patch, I feel as though everything is in an overall pretty good spot. I'd still say that something needs to be done about the rocket striders. Maybe they could exclusively fire the rockets at a long enough distance? Or maybe just swap the projectile for the same one as the rocket devastators? (Probably not though, that might affect our ability to shoot them.) I'm honestly not sure, but at the very least, ragdolling us from behind cover needs to go away.
Now that some of the damage has been changed, the bots targeting has been adjusted, and I've changed my mindset, I'm having more fun than ever against the bots and am always looking forward to diving again whenever I have free time.
Once again, I appreciate your time. I promise to put the proper amount of effort into my videos in the future. Have a good day!
Nah your take on the bugs having set enemies on certain planets is ass tbh but it's your opinion. I like it because it just makes since on certain planet if I go to a acid planet I want it to be full of the green bugs not the orange ones if I'm on a desert planet I want just regularly bugs not the ones who spit acid if I'm on a snow planet I want white bugs who spit ice they adapt and survive its there lore so taken that away for gameplay reasons isn't valid enough to mess with there lore
I wouldn't listen to the comments too much dude. Helldivers fans have 100 excuses ready at any given time if they smell someone giving any criticsm. You bring up some solid points here about the issues in HD2 (your conclusions about the solution are up for debate though).
Is the thoughtful criticism "get good" or "play around cover and it wont matter"?
Play whatever you find more Fun Bro. I am an MO Diver but on some occasions (Like to help out the DSS not be encircled when Bots captured Shelt) I chose to disregard MOs for other Strategic Reasons. I will just say that Realism is a great justification for why Firearms do not telegraph attacks. In Real World War often the most significant, longest, and important stage of Combat is simply "Knowing where the fuck the enemy even is." This is a Great Game because both players and AI are constrained and do not know where you are automatically but have to figure that out for themselves. Use Cover and incorporate some Tactical Planning before you Engage. Thats the real fun of this game, the fact that your Positioning, Equipment, and Prior actions taken (like Destroying Enemy Bases) is more of a factor in Combat than your Aim.
@@LEFT4GABEN
The issue with that is you cant be in cover at all times. A tell wouldnt matter if you were behind cover or you dont even know where the bot is but the problem is when you know where the bot is and you still cant avoid their shots.
"But its a gun, you shouldn't be warned before they fire!!!" Firstly, the cannon turret, second, lets look at the laser weapons the Helldivers have (keep in mind these are the players' and the ones who need to have a tell are just AI) the solid beam weapons in all 3 slots all have a wind up time where they make a charging sound and have a delay before firing, the sickle does as well and its the closest thing to a bot gun we have and finally the quazar takes 3 whole seconds to fire, is loud asf and has a giant glowing yellow ball on the front the whole time. Why do the player's weapons give the AI opportunities to dodge when its not possible for them and why dont the bots give players a chance to dodge when players are able to dodge?
And my last point, why not? What harm would it do to the game if you could be given a bit more information if you were paying attention and being aware? It would lead to way more cinematic moments and im sure it would take no time at all to implement a single partial to some of the bot's guns
know what I hate about heavy devastators? they flinch way too much when I'm trying to hit their head. forcing their shield into the way of your fire.
This, this is literally it. I was going to comment this but thank you, this stagger animation single-handedly makes otherwise decent automatic methods of killing them a lot less efficient (also impacts semi guns but the difference is much more people actually bother using the semi guns).
I agree I loved the regular machine but now every time I use it on the bot side it flinches the shield up and covers the head which is super frustrating
The only changes they need to make is:
1) Don't force me to stand up when knocked down
2) Make small bunker turrets more visible
3) Reduce the glare on the scanner on the front of gunships
4) Stop making recoiling devs lean back to put their head out of view from shots.
5) Fix headshots on bots (Nothing short of dead on the head is considered a headshot, next time you see one glitch out, try shooting the side of the head)
6) Reduce health on Tank turrets, they live for too long
7) Rocket striders need like a laser of something that appears before firing so you know when they are aiming
8) Reduce knockback power of rockets on rocket striders.
9) Rocket striders need to be an elite unit, not just replacing every strider on 7+
10) Fix audio for bots, they need to be LOUDER, turrets need to make sounds when turning, I should hear the creaking of bots long before I hear their voices
11) Make the rewards for the bot head from the Fortress better. Like more samples.
These are some, there are some more suggestions but they would be more like 11 where they can be applied to both bot and bug side.
yes no.1 is so stupid. the devs are so stupid. i hate it and i hate them for it. under devastator fire that thing get you killed unnecessarily
Bro got a whole christmas
If they add any laser pointer before firing that should ONLY be for the rocket strider AND rocket tank… that’s actually a really good idea but not for the rocket devastators they have enough telegraphing and the ragdoll through walls is the worst part about them right now (which goes for any ragdoll-capable enemy)
Whinediver when
I agree with #10. There is no way a patrol should be able to run up behind me while I’m fighting another group and not hear the metal stomping on the ground behind me.
I like that you feel fucked at the bot front, it’s part of the vibe
About DRG and spawn mechanics - you will not face every single type of enemy in DRG on any single mission, be it with modifier or without. Before game starts, it chooses several (8 a believe) special enemies that'll spawn on your mission outside of your normal grunts, praetorians and opressors, and nothing other then them will spawn. Modifiers can tilt the spawn one way or another, but there's still a limit on what you'll see on the mission, which is hidden from you before you start.
Not every attack should be telegraphed, this game isn't about reaction time, it requires planning. If you don't want to be shot don't stand in the line of fire. Be aware of your surroundings.
couldnt say it better myself
Rocket strider should have better telegraphed atacks for it´s rockets tho.
The enemies are an overwhelming force, just like with the bugs you either keep moving or keep them from getting close. On the bots you always take cover and prevent them from getting direct line of fire on you
Even if you don’t have much cover, just going prone in front of a small rock may protect you from 50% of the damage you take. Running heavy armor and using cover as much or as little as possible makes you really really durable
Would be nice to have to react to mg raiders and walkers though. Just make it sound like a charge up. Small red ping on the barrel.
The bright light at night on a gunship is actually tactically accurate to blind you so you can't make out their form to counter attack
Imagine being a criminal and complaining that a police helicopter light on you is stopping you from accurately shooting them
I kind of have the stance of the warning amount they give us is enough as it is (apart from rocket striders). For a ton of the automaton enemies, if you are within their sight lines, and they see you, you HAVE to assume that they will immediately open fire on you, and for everything that doesn't instakill or ragdoll you, you can take cover. If you are engaging any group of enemies, ASSUME that everything can and will shoot at you all at once. For a lot of cases (especially on super helldive) if you walk in the sight lines of like 10 heavy devs and 3 hulk bruisers with no cover around you, you shouldn't be complaining that you didn't get a warning they were about to fire, that was simply poor awareness. Same situation for if you strolled up to the front of a factory strider and wondered why you didn't get a warning that you would get absolutely bent over and fucked where democracy don't shine. Basically, the reaction you need to have shouldn't be to a queue that the enemy gives you, it should be to the enemy themselves. The enemy IS the warning, and you should be expected to react accordingly to different enemy type encounters (that is of course if you can actually play the game and not be tossed around in a ragdoll state for 10 second intervals).
Correct. The way to deal with bot is simply take cover. If you can't see the enemy but they can see you, don't go looking around hopefully to catch them during atk interval or telegraphing their next atk. You should immediately take cover.
Exactly my friend I've made similar points about this. The devs of the game made them this way for a reason. Guns don't have telegraphed attacks. Rocket devs need to stabilize themselves to support shooting out a volley of rockets. Canon towers have a glow cause they are charging up a big energy projectile
Automatons are just smart and don't let you know, why would they wanna give you a heads up
As if that matters.
Bots wouldn't want us to know when their cannon turrets will shoot, and yet they have to, because it's fair.
@@luigi9458war isn’t fair
@luigi9458 it's just a flaw in the cannons systems. It just it locking on and expelling excess heat before firing.
@@DEMOCRACYE710??
It doesn’t matter. This is a game.
@@luigi9458well yes and the conon turret has a telegraphed attack cause it's charging up a huge energy bolt. Realistically you would see a glow, which it has
I would argue that bugs too has a poor telegraphing, but not in their visual designs, but in sounds. Amount of time silent charger trampled over me or stealthy Titan sneaked up behind me is kinda absurd. They're big boys, they should make loud sounds.
The bug breach call-in is also extremely difficult to spot before it's too late. I don't think I've ever been able to stop a bug breach. That one is much less egregious though since it kinda makes sense that bug breaches are harder to prevent and are more frequent than dropships, since they're more the "endless horde" faction.
Bro….you can hear titans stomping from hundreds of meters away turn up your volume and turn down the music.
Like I’ll be minding my business and hear their foot steps and panic only to realize they are like 200 meters from me.
Bile titans are loud as hell, but Chargers, I agree. I wear headphones when i play with friends, and yet they still manage to sneak up on me.
I mean, every enemy has this problem.
The spewers are the worst. They make next to no sound and by the time you can react to the puking sound you’re already dead. And 1 of them seek up behind you and you’re just dead, not to mention they over lap and phase through one another, so that one is actually 3
5:54 WHAT DO YOU MEAN HOW DO I KNOW IF IM ABOUT TO GET SHOT???? Did the 6 terminators aiming guns at you not give it away?????????????
feeeeeelllll like youre not getting the point,, the point was that if he knew if it was a rocket or a laser he couldve reacted differently, if it was a laser he wouldve been fine jumping forwards, but if it were a rocket it couldve produced different counter play,, im not saying that in this EXACT scenario there was a different play he couldve made but the point was knowing and not knowing!!! no hate !
@@abelpoon4232 i saw that too but it doesnt matter if its a rocket or a laser dodging away would just negate the damage in either way, the most that could happen is a rackdoll. But his point was that if there is a rocket strider standing in front of you, you don’t need to and shouldn’t know what he is going fire only that he is going to fire bc you should be prepared for both meaning: prawn to the side
@@abelpoon4232best is to try to not get shot and in battle that could be difficult but still possible
0:17 YOU'RE POORLY DESIGNED!
this is a common criticism
you take it too far though
rocket devastators and gunships telegraph their attacks just fine
they have sound cues and the rockets are quite slow
add to that that rocket devastators do not lead their shots so you can just run perpendicular to them and dodge the rockets
gunships always lead by 5m in front of you so their rockets are easily dodged by simply changing direction upon hearing them fire, and personally I have never found their lights to be an issue either
I actually like the light so you know they are aiming AT you vs someone else in the team. Having the light helps a lot in a situation where there are like 8 active so you don't get hit with a red cumblast of rockets out of nowehere.
The light makes it so hard to aim at their main body.
The issue is when you’re too close you can’t do that to dodge them.
@@trevstrevsyou shoot enginie not body
@@zzodysseuszzthis is Simple not true
I have more fun with bots so opinion invalid
unfathomably based
Certified Automaton Spy Moment
(I too have a lot of fun on bot front)
@@peridrawland5955 yeah they are actually challenging, bugs are so easy it's mind numbing, they are fun too though
You might like Gears of War if you like the bots now, but Gears is way more fun in its design than the HD2 bots.
@@Ray-mj5mj cringe
"God i can't believe that these guys don't have a wind up animation before pulling the trigger on the gun that they're pointing at me"
They dont have to be pointing at you to shoot you, have you never encountered a gun-between-the-legs heavy devastator? Also they have laser weapons. Every single one of our laser weapons has a wind up, why dont theirs? Also just because they are looking at you doesnt mean they are 0.1 seconds from shooting you, have you never dove out of the way only for the bot to wait till you hit the ground (and rogdoll for no reason on a rock) to blast you?
I dont have much trouble with even level 10 bots but i do acknowledge that they would be more fun if you could tell when they will shoot. Not even all of them just the super dangerous ones.
The MG Raiders could have their backpack glow before they unleash a pinpoint volley into your head.
Rocket raiders could have the light in their launcher get brighter as the rocket takes off (although they arent much of a problem to begin with).
Heavy devastators just suck in general so adding a windup to their minigun (just like every other game ever) would be like a bandaid on a missing arm.
Flame hulks have a massive telegraph so why do bruisers have none at all?
And then the other things he mentioned
They aren't mandatory but i dont see how they could make the game worse
Assuming you can even see where the gun is pointed through all the smoke, or know the exact timing of when they will shoot, and assuming they're even facing you at all in the case of heavy devastators. Not to mention, they're laser weapons. You'd have a point if they fired bullets, but they fire lasers, which every other laser has wind-up in this game. The sickle, scythe, dagger, and laser cannon all have wind-up.
@@GamerKiwi thats wind up time, not wind up animation. this guy is complaining that the enemies aren't like dark souls bosses and don't prompt him to be able to dodge their attacks.
@@PatrickRatman And why shouldn't they? You're supposed to be able to dodge enemy attacks, that's the entire reason there's a dive button. Poorly telegraphed and powerful attacks are just plain bad design. An attack should either be weak enough that it won't kill you on its own, or it should be telegraphed enough it can be reacted to.
@@GamerKiwi Because guns don't give a warning, you should be moving through cover and not exposing yourself out in the open. And wtf do you mean "strong attacks should be telegraphed" THE TANK AND TURRETS HAVE A RED GLINT BEFORE IT SHOOTS YOU. Literally the only unit that has the issue of its attacks being too powerful to avoid instant death is the armored scout strider. Rockets from rocketeers and devastators are incredibly easy to dodge, and shredders and strider miniguns are a menacing target that you just shouldn't be out of cover when they're deployed. If you're in a situation that you get killed by a heavy devastator before you can get to cover that is YOUR fault and you should infact just GET GOOD. Literally this is just an issue of players being so stubborn on trying to fight bots like they're fighting bugs that they refuse to accept that you need to take cover from the enemy. If the map does not provide good cover, bring your own with the bubble shield or backpack shield.
minor correction at 7:33
DRG does have spawn pools that change slightly from mission to mission, even without modifiers, but it does so in a way that is much less noticeable so you hardly notice it
This dude wouldn’t survive in the first galactic war.
What do you mean? HD1 has extremely well telegraphed attacks. The tanks look directly at you with a very loud sound + a laser going directly at where it is going to shoot, the hulks stop in a very obvious way and when they shoot they start close to themselves and end up going into the distance, giving you time to react
In fact, I would say he would have survived with ease the first galactic war
Actually he would, telegraphing was much better in the first game as was visibility.
@guillermotoro2342 HD1 had infinite reinforcements, game was nuts and you'd die for no reason and sometimes from enemies off screen. But you could always respawn as long as one helldivers is alive
Yeah. I’m being bras(c)h right now.
@@semihezen9541 Yeah, but every enemy had a very distinct sound cue even if they were outside your screen, so you could dodge even without seeing them
Also yeah, I know, I'm still playing the game, is pretty damn fun
Pretty sure the cokeheads at the Automaton factories don't want to make it obvious when they're gonna attack, nature however...
It makes... way more sense then I would enjoy
as technically humans are the real predatory species, the bugs just as any other prey are trying to deter them from even starting a fight by scaring or deterring us with those poses/lights/sounds
The only enemy that needs telegraphing is the rocket strider.
Everything else is pretty well balanced. The IFV turrets can only hit you with that attack and do so the second they look at you. In other words, dont stand in the open when they're actively looking at you. No telegraphing is required for them.
Gunships also alert you to their attacks via a sound que, so you know when to dodge their missiles. They also miss if you shoot them when the sound que begins.
The hidden enemy modifiers would also be fine so long as I just knew about it before picking a load out.
Telegraphing isn't just to tell you that an enemy will attack, it's to tell you the timing of the attack so you can react, and everything that can instantly kill you (or double tap you while you're helplessly ragdolled) needs telegraphing, especially if there's not enough time from the moment the weapon is fired to when contact is made to: see the attack, process where it's going to land, and hit the dive button. With how bad visibility in the game is, the second ordinance starts coming down, oftentimes the only thing you can see is the enemy's lasers, or at best the enemy's silhouettes.
I assume by IVF turret you mean the command bunker, which is, out of all enemies, the one that needs it the most by far save for *maybe* the rocket strider. It's a fast moving projectile that can kill you from full health, even with heavy extra padding armor and a shield backpack, since it will ragdoll you and kill you with the followup shots before you can actually react or stim. And that's on an enemy that blends in incredibly well into their environment even in good visibility. Contrast them with the cannon turret which sticks out like a sore thumb, has a light near the barrel, and flashes before they shoot. Just adding a red light to them like other automatons have, and a brief red flash like tank turrets have would suffice.
I disagree the rocket strider does not need telegraphing you just need experience because almost always when first encountering a rocket strider within 10 or so seconds it will fire its rocket and almost always it stands still and does not fire its lasers right before doing this.
@@GamerKiwi lol yeah the bunker turrets are the worst for me. But I've started to learn how to deal with them, aka examine the base *really really carefully* and snipe that shit with a recoilless rifle from max range before approaching. Also never just run around a corner, cause of the 'wtf' turrets randomly hiding behind corners in fortresses lol.
@@lamoley100 Yeah but it's much more difficult to pick that out of a giant crowd of other bots who are all shooting at you.
@@GamerKiwi game would be easy baby mode and not fun anymore. If you can’t handle it just play on easier difficulty.
I don’t need or want the game to hold my hand going “oh look the enemy is about to shoot you! Get into cover!”
I already know to stay in cover when approaching and fighting bots, cause my frontal lobe didn’t stop development after three years of age like someone’s seems too have.
This game was made with sweaty milsim philosophy in mind. You can't have a gun telegraph that it's going to fire in a sweaty milsim
the only real complaint I have about the automaton telegraphs is with the new enemies. the rocket fire is dodgeable at range but when you're close they just kill you instantly and there's nothing you can do about it. as for everything else, there's actually telegraphs but they're hard to notice. for normal enemies, its just kinda when they're pointing their guns at you which sounds bad but no enemy leads their shots so its not as hard to deal with as you'd think. as for command bunker turrets, they can't fire at you when you're close and they don't notice you unless you shoot at them or you get spotted by a different enemy. hulks can be a problem too but again they don't lead their shots so you can usually escape pretty easy if you're staying mobile. heavy devastators are probably the worst offender outside of the new enemies, but there are two tips; first, they get more accurate as they spin up so you have some warning before they start to murder you, and second, they become a lot less accurate if you shoot in their general direction. this applies to everything on the bot front save for tanks and turrets so its good to keep in mind.
the biggest problem i see people doing when swapping from bugs to bots is simply engaging recons. the little bots are a lot more threatening than they look and a bot drop is significantly harder to deal with than a bug breach. take your time, go in carefully, and when you need to engage, chase a strategem because if you can clear out the little guys you wont need to worry about reinforcements.
I mean, what type of war would it be if the enemy wasn't trying to win, right. I think everything's fine and makes sense. It's just that getting one shot by grunts is a little wild to me, considering we got armor.
Simple, plan a reaction for when they're in view, not wait until actively trying to attack.
We can´t do that everytime that we see one, especialy when we are pushing out a base or a jammer.
@jovifidelis Takes a bit of luck and practice, but I do it all the time. If it doesn't look human or doesn't have a tag, I'll go as far as to test my savior of the free with an impact grenade at point blank just so my team can clear that corner and kill the jammer.
And if I survive the blast, now the jammer is clear and I can just stim up and finish it myself.
"Damn!! The enemies fired their missiles and bullets while I was in their line of sight, killing me! Why didnt they tell me?"
The cruise missiles from the scout striders are ridiculous and need something to communicate they're about to fire
"I can't believe the enemy that is looking at me will shoot at me!" is what this video sounds like
as well as a general lack of awareness
look around, ping the enemies so you and your team remembers they exist out of POV
Honestly all I need for bot front is for ragdolling to not force me to stand up while under direct machine gun fire.
I Disagree, most enemies on bots are inaccurate, hulks are inaccurate except they ragdoll you leaving you vulnerable, rocket striders always inaccurate except the blast radius will ragdoll you anyway. The problem is with ragdolling, not the enemies themself.
Skill issue simply not get good
This is why I prefer using the punisher shotgun on bot missions, because it allows me to hide behind cover while still shooting back.
I think you have a point but I disagree with your solution:
The solution with the automatons is already implemented, just not in a practical way, the 'telegraph' should be their lack of accuracy, they should start shooting with a 0 chance to hit then gain more accuracy as they fire, that way you know you're getting hit and can react and adapt, but currently they can just headshot with the first shot then miss the 30 next.
Plus, the way they 'miss' its currently also poorly implemented, many times you're not even aware they're shooting you until they hit, it's like game runs a chance of hitting or not instead of actually shooting closer to the target each time letting you know you are in danger.
That's a very interesting and creative solution that I like a lot! I'd love to see how it would feel if implemented.
I as a person who mains bots and only plays super helldive with almost 400 hours in the game I do acknowledge the fact that many bots have unfair wind up times thats why you should not look for the wind up time if a bot is pointing its gun at you hide or kill them dont wait for anything or you will die and in helldivers 2 death is frequent and common so its okay for that to happen. Also the game tells you this when it shows you tips when diving into missions aka the three c which are cover courage and more cover this is the best tutorial for the bots imaginable it teaches you that you need cover but you also need not be afraid to die. So in conclusion the bots are unfair but manageable running up to them and trying to dodge LASERS AND ROCKETS does not work you need to take COVER this design ultimately makes the bots fun for me if it dosent for you thats fine but you cant say they have issues with design when you simply have to play the game differently. (Edit also I disagree the with your belief about the rocket strider as it does not need telegraphing you just need experience because almost always when first encountering a rocket strider within 10 or so seconds it will fire its rocket and almost always it stands still and does not fire its lasers right before doing this and will angle it head towards as seen in your video (4:05) Also at 5:23 you walked right into the line of fire of the rocket strider . Also what are talking about with the barrage tank I think I have died to it once maybe I really dont know what your talking about with that being a problem.
Bunker turrets and rocket striders are easily the worst offenders.
I would love if there was a short pre-fire animation for the rocket striders of white smoke coming out of the thrusters as they amped up to launch. Playing around that timing for a dive, stagger, or kill would make fighting them feel WAY better.
Is it wrong that i thought this was a sh*tpost at first, where you would be talking about how the automatons were badly designed literally.
"I understand that a heat sink is needed and that you need to reinforce the front but why would you have the heatsink SO exsposed like that. It would be easier to size down a little so you're heatsinks would be placed inside the body then fanned out with tiny vents instead of the GIANT GLOWING SLAG OF METAL! The only saving grace it gets is that the hulk is ment to be a backline unit, meaning its back isn't shown often. Still doesn't save the hulk insinerator!"
It does seem a bit strange to me how the bot faction seems to follow two principles in its design, but doesn't stick to both consistently, often omitting one for the other.
On the one hand, there's plenty of attacks that do have a telegraph, be it animation or audio based:
- Rocket Devastators take a stance before firing a volley (they also have a laser weapon that follows the second principle)
- Rocket Raiders, same as above (and nothing else)
- Cannon Turrets and Tanks aim, flash and shoot (for Tanks specifically, they also have a laser weapon that follows the second principle)
- Gunships you can clearly hear the barrage of rockets being fired, and they always aim to predict your movement, so you merely need to move in the opposite direction (also same as the Rocket Dev and Tank; side note: your issue with their light might honestly just stem from your graphics settings, I've never had any problems with it, though granted I play with most things on low since too much visual noise is distracting)
- Rocket Tanks rear up and take aim when shooting upwards ala mortar (not so when aiming directly at you)
- Flamethrower Hulks have a windup and a predetermined pattern in how they use it
On the other hand, bots with laser weapons tend to attack in bursts, following a pattern without a windup. This applies to every bot enemy with a laser weapon, be it a trooper, devastator, tank, with the egregious addition of the Rocket Strider and Tank. Thing is that laser weapons miss quite a bit and (most of them) have no ragdolling involved. The outliers are felt a lot more, namely the rapid fire turrets, Hulks with cannons and rocket units which I definitely think should instead belong to the telegraphed category (typically, the harder an enemy attack hits, the more well known that has to be made to the player). The other issue there is how since the last update, laser weapons do 25% more damage and we take more overall damage everywhere that isn't the head, so chip damage isn't exactly something you can shrug off anymore, with most bots having the ability to kill you in less than half a second if their shots randomly happen to be accurate (anyone who has played against the bots knows how inconsistent their accuracy is in general).
If I had to compare it to another game that does this excellently, it'd be WH40K Darktide, where ranged chaff does exactly what you said: they perform a quick flash right before shooting, but also a sound effect, letting you know that you're about to be attacked in case an enemy snuck up on you. Plus, more dangerous enemies, called specialists in that game, always spawn and attack with a distinct sound effect that lets you know that specific enemy is there in the middle of the chaos.
And if you want a closer comparison to Helldivers 2, you need simply look at Helldivers 1. Where every single ranged enemy, without exception, either has a windup animation, or the attack itself is slow and very easy to see.
Your criticisms of the bugs suggest you want a very rigid behavior from the enemy so perfect play is possible. I think this game is supposed to be chaotic. Getting knocked around to death is fine when your team can save you from this fate. If you choose to go alone (i do as well, so not putting you down for that) you just have to accept that things like a charger's shellshock effect is going to be more lethal for you.
As for the bots not having telegraphs, a tank pointing its gun at you is the telegraph. A hulk is basically a big tank whose arms barely move, so it's crystal clear what direction the danger is. Bots are more "war-like". Soldiers don't yell "firing!" before they open up. With game knowledge you can identify the enemy gun emplacements and alter your approach. Like 5:54 you're saying you can't tell if the scout strider is going to fire a rocket or laser, when the answer was "you're boned" because you have two rocket devastators and the strider aiming at you. And you run toward them. The correct answer was either run behind cover or at the very least dive back. Prone gives explosive resist and you could have gotten a bit more range on them. If they're aiming at you, you better already be dealing with it in some way.
I will agree with the gunship's light and the nearly single enemy type spawn thing. The overabundance of negative modifiers is also not fun. I have previously suggested that those mods should be selectable by host for bonuses.
Whats funny is, the rockets are inaccurate, the blast and ragdoll what almost killed him not the rockets
i think he handled that encounter pretty optimally TBH. getting to the base of the cliff means he can use that as cover. the cover he was already next to was that one little MG nest, which seemed super low, and the enemies were up on the rock. I doubt that cover would have protected him from even the lasers, let alone the rockets
but yeah, he was boned because he landed right in the field of fire of a bunch of hard hitting enemies already on a vantage point. telegraphing or no he was lucky to have survived. just the luck of the draw
I'm glad someone is talking about the enemy constellation mechanic. I'm tired of dropping into bug missions only for it to be "Oops! All Bile Spewers!" and no one has the means to deal with them.
The tell of when an automaton is about to fire is when they are staring at you you have oh shit seconds until your about to die that’s what makes them fun
If rocket plumes eminated out of the back of all rocket launchers npc's just before they fire'd those rockets off, that would solve a LOT of the telegraphing issues.
A simple bright flash of light a second before the bots start barraging you with rockets would make the bots so much better to go up against
The amount of people in this comment section siting “they’re aiming at you” as a proper telegraph is baffling when the design of new enemies is clearly contradicting with all the enemies that the game shipped with. Rocket Devastator gets into a stance to fire a burst of missiles that will flop you around and deal 25 damage at most while rocket strider drive-by’s you with a missile that one-shots you.
Yes but they only appear in more difficult missions when you should have learned TO GET INTO COVER.
If you can’t get the hint to allways approach bots from behind something else and to only start engagements when you have cover….literally step into the bot fabricator because you are a bot.
That too hard for you? Bring your own cover. Bubble shield, smoke screens, smoke stratagems, shield backpack.
If a machine gun is firing at you, the first five shots or so usually miss, there is your telegraph now dive.
Rocket Striders rockets are inaccurate i can stand still and they will shoot 10 rockets bypassing me, the probelm is, if there is a wall behind me or they are at high ground, the blast will destroy me ragdoll will finish me
Proof in 5:54
@@trevstrevs You missed the entire point while adding nothing to the topic
This is fair because when rocket striders are going to fire its missile at you it almost always within in the first 10 seconds of detection while rocket devastates are very arbitrary on when and when not they will fire their rockets.
Also sometimes when you stun a charger they will just go from completely still, to fucking mach 3 charging into you, instantly killing you. It looks like the fucker just rubberbands into you
Dude doesn’t realize a robot aiming at you means they’re going to shoot you……
You must be the only helldiver that hasnt had a bot shoot at you when they weren't facing you
@@zemufinman1639 found the guy who won't let go of his grudge against bugged shield devastators
@@zemufinman1639nah
They do have a mechanic where if you are shooting at them their accuracy goes down the toilet. So just keep firing in that direction and they revert to suppressing fire. If I had to guess they have it like that for more cinematic gameplay
I understand some of these criticisms but overall I have little difficulty on either fronts playing at level 10 so maybe its just the more you play the better you get at understanding how to counter enemies
yup - a few more experienced bot players have already commented, but (a) if something is looking at you, it's time to already be somewhere else; and (b) kill problematic enemies like striders, rocket tanks before they have a chance to actually do anything bad. Same applies to detector towers, mortar emplacements, gunship bases.
I've always targeted scout striders first, even before rocket striders became a thing, because they will run you down across the map and have pretty accurate aim once they get locked in. Now with rocket striders it's the same thing, you (or someone with an AMR, or your sentries) need to kill them before they get a chance to start firing rockets at you indiscriminately. There's about a 3-5 second window before they fire their first rocket, that's when you need to either stagger them or get behind cover.
The enemy variety I disagree with, it's cool to change it up but all AH needs to do is just tell the players what enemies are most likely to appear, and plan ahead. It's unnecessary to remove it otherwise the game would become more stale and metas will appear again.
Tf hell no that will make it too easy what u want a big red notic that this enemy is coming so you can put on ur pants its a war you ain't supposed to see the enemies from a mile but you have to expect and overcome that's what makes u a helldivers not baby diverse
The main issue i have experienced with hulks and chargers is that they can sneak up on you without any audio que indicating that they are approaching.
barrager tanks my behated, why must they be able to direct fire and clip their turrets through themselves?
So basically this is a 10 minute secret bitching session.
he did warn you in the first minute of the video, i'm being so fr.
“The rocket robot shot a rocket at me and I’m confused”
That’s crazy because it’s almost like it’s a robot designed to find you and shoot rockets at you….. If only it were 15 feet tall with fragile legs it would be easier to kill it….
The use of cover more effectively is more important on the bot front. Because they are shooting lasers I don’t think reactively dodging is as much the intended gameplay as much as focusing on not being ‘seen’ so much
I agree that Heavy Devastator shields should be able to be destroyed by support weapons.
The enemy is under no obligation to announce their attacks; I think that actually makes sense. My main complaint is the ridiculous ragdolling. Just knock me down, and kill me or let me try again.
6:35 Bro do you have any idea how much you could see on a dif. 7 and greater mission if every ranged attack was announced with a flash. That's right nothing. It'd be like looking straight into the sun.
I think hulks need to sound as heavy as they are (why is the 40 ton death machine walking silently?) and that rocket striders actually can blow me. I can deal with the lack of telegraph on every other enemy but the rocket striders genuinely drive me up a wall. The game will just casually spawn 8 of em and any of those can just casually 1 hit you from close to far range with zero heads up.
Honestly I like that the bots have minimal choreography with their attacks it makes more sense since actual guns also don't have any and they're just using guns
this is the realism argument that almost killed this game
@@declicitous1763 Gabe Newell: "I have never thought to myself that realism is fun"
people don't understand that fun>realism every time. This isn't a simulator its a game.
@@declicitous1763 it’s more that it’s dumb and stupid for a gun to have a telegraphed attack.
That’s like mind boggling stupid
@@trevstrevsdon’t see how you can say that when plenty of games have guns show a glint or flash before shooting, just like the turret towers and tank barrels in this game. It’s literally in the game already. Not saying every bot weapon needs a flash, just that to say the mechanic is “mind boggling stupid” is a dumb argument.
The lack of telegraphing is what makes it all so intense. And that's good. You basically want the devs to make bots easier. It's already easy enough as it is with an experienced 4 man squad. The moment they actually listen to your requests, you are going to complain the game is too easy.
Difficulty can be added back in other ways if necessary.
You morons that want the game to be hard in dumb ways are awful at game design and almost sunk the game. Hilarious.
I actually like the lack of enemy shooting telegraph, because just like in real life and the player, you don't have much telegraph. It makes it feel more impactful and realistic for everyone you fight in my opinion.
The rocket strider is the worst culprit. Unlike rocket devastator, it doesn't have ANY telegraph, and its rockets are pretty much one hit kills or it'll launch you five miles away.
Edit: Also, here's the WORST part, the missiles are almost completely SILENT
I disagree the rocket strider does not need telegraphing you just need experience because almost always when first encountering a rocket strider within 10 or so seconds it will fire its rocket and almost always it stands still and does not fire its lasers right before doing this.
@@lamoley100 you can say that with any enemies. "Experience" doesn't negate the fact that rocket striders are badly designed. And no, they fire anytime they want, they don't need to stand still or stop shooting laser, which isn't even enough indicator.
@@lamoley100 rocket devastator has to stop and bend its legs before shooting their rockets. No reason to not also implement it to rocket striders
@@LeadMetal82 No they cant fire their lasers while firing their rocket they just cant do that. Also be prepared because they will almost always fire within 10 seconded of them first detecting you.
@@LeadMetal82 It should not be implimented because it has no need to because rocket devastator are a lot more random with their firing patterns rocket striders are highly predictable in the 10 first seconeds of detection they are all but garunted to fire at with their rockets while rocket devastores are far more random with this.
Heavy armor negates most of the damage from bots. So bugs are about judging the enemy patterns and bots are more about equipment and how you engage them. It's good game design imo when you need to be flexible in your approach to fighting multiple types of enemies.
This is bot propaganda to trick you into wearing heavy armor
I saw your video, but didnt click on it because the video answer was in the thumbnail. But then upon further thought, I wanted to come back here and say this that I appreciate it. I might also watch the video now despite knowing the answer.
Aside from rocket scout walker I don't believe anything else is worth fixing. The deaths that happen from these issues are too few whenever I'm playing, I check my map, and the large number of enemies don't spawn out of nowhere often anymore, so I still get the time to position myself or engage them before they can shoot all at once.
Personally I find the increased difficulty of bots more fun and requires you to think a bit more and use the environment to you're advantage. It sounds to me like you just want bots to be easy mode. If you are bold enough to be running light armor on bots, getting 1 shot is inevitable. Take a shield backpack, problem solved. Also everything IS telegraphed. If they are pointing their guns at you, they are going to shoot at you. There should not be a need to also have a 'dodge now' light on every enemy. You are running around a lot without looking where you are going, you're problem is a lack of situational awareness. You have a minimap that tells you where enemies are and somehow you keep getting blindsided by 10ft tall striders. Look around, plan where you are going, keep track of where enemies are before you enter an area, look for good fall back points and avoid open areas with long lines of site.
I absolutely love bots, it feels so military operation but I DESPISE rocket striders flinging me out of cover infront of a scorcher. And barrage tanks flinging me off cover outside mission radius
I wish the hulk had a horn or siren to announce it's arrival
automatons are designed to need a completely different approach than the bugs, they're high intelligence, ranged, unpredictable and heavy armor, I don't find an issue with lack of telegraphing, ragdolling tho, that's the issue all across the game
Here is what an added rocket strider telegraph would be like:
“Greetings, Super Earth Scum! I am your friendly neighborhood rocket strider here, about to un-alive you and liberate you from your inferior flesh. Here I go!”
Me: *proceeds to respawn*
1. Rocket striders have slow, white-colored missiles, which will one-tap you. A large portion of the time, you will be engaging these enemies at close range. CLOSE RANGE. A telegraphed attack is meaningless if the projectile is faster than your ability to dive out of the way. The FARTHER AWAY you are, the more helpful a telegraphed attack becomes. Less distance = More dangerous. More distance = Less dangerous.
2. You successfully negate a direct hit from a Rocket strider by using its newly-added telegraph to narrowly dive out of the way, in a perpendicular direction. The missile hits the ground, close to you, and sends you flying, into the rag-doll state. You then impact against a boulder, and die upon contact with it. (1) You were flying too fast, (2) you didn’t preemptively stim yourself, (3) you didn’t choose extra-padded or reinforced/fortified armor, and (4) you didn’t choose the vitality booster, which has now monopolized and dominated the booster selection when fighting the bots. I doubt having your teammate bring experimental infusion, as an addition, along with your appropriate armor + vitality booster, will give you the extra damage reduction needed to survive anyways.
MY PROPOSAL:
1. Rocket Striders have an added telegraph, as a small, side-mounted, projectile-path laser scope, SIMILAR TO THAT OF THE FACTORY STRIDER GATLING GUNS, that briefly “turns on” before firing the rocket. When turned off, at close range, it will only use its laser attack.
2. Rocket Striders have an audible SOUND CUE for when they turn on their TARGETING LASER SCOPE, used for its rocket attack. Maybe it could sound like a metallic switch-on noise, coupled with an underlying, low humming/buzzing tone.
3. Rocket Striders ONLY shoot LASERS, unless the helldiver is at a long enough range, in which it then SWITCHES MODES to ROCKET MODE.
4. Rocket Striders are notoriously infamous for chasing down players over long stretches of the map, in a very aggressive fashion. Please add the following changes: (1). Rocket Striders, when out of rockets, cannot use their rocket attack (seems like they still can shoot rockets at you, even when you see they are out of rockets). (2). ADD A NEW ENEMY INTO THE GAME that can MATCH THE MOVEMENT SPEED of the Rocket Strider, which will assume the role of “chasing” down a helldiver (AUTOMATON DOGS???). Make the ROCKET STRIDER MOVEMENT SPEED SLIGHTLY SLOWER, but not too slow, to allow helldivers to out-run them when attempting to disengage.
Just my thoughts.
-SES Song of Victory
Will agree with some points and disagree with others. I have more fun with bots than the bugs because of the sheer challenge that I have against them.
1. Treat the bots like a fighting game. A lot of attacks in fighting games don’t telegraph their moves before they actually use the move, which then gives you milliseconds to react. What the game expects you to do is predict and position yourself properly to intercept/counter the move.
2. Let’s apply to the bots, specially the rocket hulks. Its rockets are not telegraphed and you don’t have a visual or sound queue on when it’s gonna fire. What you do have instead is timing and situational awareness. When you engage with a hulk that has rockets, you don’t just run to him and expect to “dodge” the rockets by waiting for some telegraphed animation. You purposely bait the rocket so that you can then peek him or get close enough that he can’t fire back. The way to play bots is to not be primarily reactive. That’s how bug gameplay works. For bots, you have to be primarily proactive meaning that you have to put yourself in situations where you have the advantage over gunfights, advantages where even the non telegraphed attacks won’t reach or deal enough damage to matter.
3. This brings me to my next point. The reason why the bot mission doesn’t have the fog modifier is because it would ruin the bot gameplay. One of the most important things to consider when playing against bots is positioning. The minimap is here for that and one of the boosters is specifically made for this type of gameplay. You’re not reactive like against the bugs where if you run into enemies, you just kill them. Against bots, if you accidentally run into enemies, you’re fucked. That means a lot of the gameplay focus is about preplanning your approach. If the bots started getting telegraphed attacks that you can just dodge by just seeing it, you lose a huge aspect of the proactive gameplay because everyone would just play the bots like they play the bugs: run around, run into enemies, shoot them down with very little risk.
4. The way the bot side balances this lack of telegraphy from enemies is by having them walk very slow. Hulk, devastators, factory striders (combined with its size) are very slow enemies which gives you enough time to deal with them before they get within the danger zone. Even the gunships are far enough from the ground that you can see and dodge the rockets but more importantly, the gunships actually makes noise when they fire the rockets and because they’re not close to ground, you have more than enough time to dodge the rockets the moment you hear the deploying sound. I also find the rockets to be slower than devastators. I don’t know if the light on them is purely made for you to prioritise the sound aspect of it but even if they remove the red light, it won’t change much since hardcore players are already expecting rockets. One of the strategies against them is to keep moving and bait their rockets. This once again encourages proactive gameplay where you’re not waiting for them to fire the rockets to dodge. You’re proactively baiting their rockets and you can tell when they’ll fire just like the other enemies, TIMING and PREDICTION like in a fighting game.
5. Now I will address the elephants in the room. Rocket strider, those ones need to go. The biggest difference between those and rocket devastators is that rocket strider will catch up to you very quickly and once they’re in your los, they’ll just fire the one hit rocket. If they were very slow to catch up to you, it wouldn’t be a problem because you’ll then play the same baiting game as you do the other bots. But because they’re so quick, they’ll push you out of position before you can even bait and take them out. We’ll already have enemies who push us out of cover. We don’t need one that can fire one hit kill rockets from any distance including close distance. It gets even worse when there’s multiple and is honestly the only bot enemy I would like to see some telegraphed animation.
6. The other issue is the accuracy of the enemy and how they’re sometimes not linked to each other. There was that one time where I met a bunch of small grunts and usually you feel comfortable getting close to them and tank a few shots here and there. But this time, they all decided to shoot me in the head consecutively and it was an instant death, from small grunts. I don’t have issues dealing with them but I think there needs to be a better system that calculates the probability of getting gang headshotted by random grunts specially the one that runs towards you or jet packs to you.
The game encourages cover and that’s great but imagine playing cod, you peek out of cover, and all the enemies decide to shoot you in the head at the same time.
Overall, I wouldn’t add telegraph animation to every enemies because it’ll sincerely ruin the proactive part of the gameplay. I don’t need the front turrets of a factory strider to shine before shooting because you shouldn’t be in front of them to begin with. Besides, what’s the point of adding telegraphed animation/pointers to attacks you can’t even dodge? But for enemies that are quick to close in the distance and have the same firepower as the strongest enemies in the game, like the rocket strider, either remove the rockets or add some telegraphed animation. Also fix the bug where the rockets don’t explode if I use a laser cannon on it.
I think your comment might be my favorite I've read so far. I appreciate the depth you went into with your response.
I agree with everything you've said. Since reading the comments on this video, I've changed my mindset on the game a lot. I like your comparison to a fighting game a lot, and I agree that being proactive is what you need to do against the bots.
This video is honestly a really poorly made and rushed video, and I did not convey my points clearly at all. I've adjusted my process for making videos and have promised myself to spend more time on each video going forward. I think what I was trying to get at was, "If the bots are going to continue to do this much damage, then we should be able to react like in other games with high damage. Otherwise, revert the damage changes." But obviously, nothing like that was stated in the video, and I'm not even sure that I agree with that take currently. Given the recent 60 day conclusion patch, I feel as though everything is in an overall pretty good spot. Like you stated, I'd still say that something needs to be done about the rocket striders. Maybe they could exclusively fire the rockets at a long enough distance? Or maybe just swap the projectile for the same one as as the rocket devastators? (Probably not though, that might affect our ability to shoot them.)
Now that some of the damage has been changed, the bots targeting has been adjusted, and I've changed my mindset, I'm having more fun than ever against the bots and am always looking forward to diving again whenever I have free time.
Once again, I appreciate your time. Have a good day!
My biggest complaint about this game is how easy it is to be ambushed by enemies that dont make any sound at all
bro, artificial difficulty is when you play 10. they spawn patrols in plain sight. the game turn into a free-for-all whack-a-mole it's stupid.
If the rocket striders had a wind up animation like how the rocket devs have to brace to shoot they would certainly be easier to counter. A big thing that would really help is more sound cues for everything, tanks and hulks should make tons of noise when moving around.
I mostly agree, knowing what the enemy is doing is important and I suspect we will actually have a much better idea once the shiny bots roll out.
Something that really worked for Halo is that enemies has a very colorful design, with details in places that are only visible from specific angles. So if they are facing you in particular, you will definitely know. Also, when surprised by you, enemies will often make a sort of startled or call-out animation; giving the player a chance to get a few shots in before the enemy can return fire.
Meanwhile, in Helldivers a surprise attack doesn't do much unless it instantly kills an important target, as every other enemy will immediately know where you are and snap shot you like they're CSGO no-lifers.
not quite, the way the ai works especially when alerting a base out of sight, is they will fire in the general direction of the attack until you are locked onto, which is why if you manage to sneak away and hide they will investigate but only have a chance of finding you
I think by far the epitome of this (bad) design is the Rocket Strider. I guarantee by this being a 10min video that it won't go into nearly enough detail as to just how badly they are designed, from their weakpoints, to their stats, to how they are included in the game. There better be a whole section on those (edit: there was) but you need at least 40 minutes to fully break down how heinous those things are. You can have a game where you get as many Rocket Striders as you do Devastators. It's actually insane!!!
The thing is you're dead right, all of this is perfectly salvageable with just a little bit of extra polish. Certainly nothing on the level of reworking enemies completely like they did with the Hulk Bruiser. Even then, that was argaubly an okay change as at least the laser cannon has a pattern of 4 shots you can identify. But somehow AH have zero sense for audio design and most big enemies just make idle sounds. Truly this game is a conundrum
I'd still rather ride rockets than have 30 hunters on me 24/7, but it's puzzling how often you have to rely on enemies being blind to get out of trouble. IIRC there's workings of an enemy brood system somewhere in the game so one day you'll know what you're getting into.
"i cant see when my enemies want to hurt me so change them all" yep skill issue
counter-point: bots are intended to be tackled in a sort of rudimentary tactical-shooter playstyle. You don't get the audio/visual cues in the same way you rarely see/hear anyone shooting you until you're already dead, al'la ARMA. Granting this is NOT a milsim - the point I am making here is that it is BECAUSE bots don't have cues the player can react to (like bugs) is what sets them apart as a unique faction. They require a very different tactics, and tools.
I assume the opposite position. I enjoy fighting bots. Bugs, not to so much. I'm not sure I would go so far to say bugs have a design fault. Different threats. Different concerns.
Ever present risk of flying instant death exists in real life. I'm not saying "because realism" as justification. I'm simply saying that bots benefit from modern military doctrine and squad tactics for the same reason. Taking every advantage you can to mitigate the risk of instant death is the name of the game. Sometimes how to accomplish that isn't so obvious and often the consequence of decisions made 5 minutes ago (scouting), keeping cool, and maintaining situational awareness.
They're just very different challenges. But your considerations are interesting. Given I haven't played in months, I'd happily concede maybe the designers are better suited catering to a more narrow audience that readily enjoys the game.
7:30 Thing is, in Deep Rock Galactic, you never get the full roster of enemies in a mission, the game picks some, and only they show up (With some exceptions, but that's how it generally works).
Haven’t fully watched but I think the bots have a rhythm band for one shots they have subtle but obvious telegraphing. Those heavy devs are annoying af but they feel like they have half the health of normal devs when hitting shots
1. Skill issue
2. As a LOADING SCREEN TIP SAID "If you are facing automatons, remember the three C's: cover, courage and more cover", and in all of your clips you are ignoring it, also, oneshots with light armor? Use heavy or medium then! Fortified reduces damage taken from explosions and every AoE attack they have, so the bunker turrets, hulk bruiser bigger cannon, and every explosion, which they have a shit ton of.
You are complaining that bots use different tactics and require to treat them differently than bugs just because you refuse to learn. The thing about automatons, is they are robots and do things like humans do, you ain't gonna shout where you are in hide and seek, are you?
Anyways, yeah, skill issue, I'd recommend you see the enemy, choose the approach direction, the way you gonna deal with them and what if something goes wrong. Kind of like a defence onion (or whatever it's called), where every layer is a backup. Don't be seen, if seen, don't get hit, if seen, kill before get hit, if hit, take less damage etc.
How is it skill issue if you can’t tell which bot is gonna attack you first? bugs are easy because the closet will attack you for 99% all the time bugs simply don’t follow rule which is ok every third and fps games do that but they utilise cover efficiently. One thing the creator of the video didn’t say is that even when behind cover get hit by cannon turret or anything with a huge explosion radius will simply just push you back out of cover leaving you exposed. Helldivers 2 simply doesn’t utilise cover as well as other games it’s just meant to trick you not taking cover because it’s useless. It’s obvious you didnt play the game or you chose the difficulty below 7
@@AshRian-vp2rc which bot will attack you first?
simple
all of them
whether they see you or not
they will shoot where you were
A big problem with the game is the devs had an idea for how it should play but didn't hand-hold hoping people would figure it out.
People didn't figure it out and complained until they had to change the game.
Helldivers 2 shares a lot of DNA with Metal gear games. Enemies spot you and you have a moment to take them out before an alert, alerts call in reinforcements and continued fighting usually snowballs indefinitely. But people thought this was a horde shooter so their mindset isn't "Break contact and do objectives" it's "Kill all the things!".
This is why guns were underpowered and strikes were on long cooldowns, this is why spotting a patrol warns "Patrol here" and why certain enemies alert quicker than others and telegraph it giving you a brief second if you haven't taken them down before they spotted you.
Also the reason for smoke, which practically no one uses, despite it being an amazing tool to break contact, accomplish objectives, regroup, people didn't think it worked because the Bots realistically keep firing into it (but not at you, randomly and slower) while bugs keep heading to your last known position and then "Sniff around'. If you've already gotten a decent distance away and especially from hunters, you may have made a clean break.
Helldivers is an action/stealth game that expected people to figure it out.
They didn't.
Hmmm valid point. Sooo, basically, we also should have Telegraphed shots, so enemies would know when we are bout to shoot huh?
A ground military force doesn't shout "I'm about to shoot you!" Before shooting you? Imagine my shock. Seriously bots are fine as is.
That's war broski
Funny you mention deep rock galactic enime spawns, they have a system where certain bugs won't spawn every time, on haz 5 3 of 6 types of bugs can spawn, grabbers, goo bombers, bulk detonators, warden, menance, and shell back. Only 3 out of the 6 will spawn on any haz 5 mission.
I want the mini gun bots to have a wider spread so that I have time to shoot back and not just hide in cover hoping my teammates shoot it in the back
I like the difficulty. They’re people, not bugs.
I love the impaler just because the tendrils remind me of the big green tentacle thing you burn to a crisp in half life 1.
I have an idea, if there are automatons, then there will be attacks. If there are no automaton, then no attack.
Hi there, I wanted to say that after watching your video I agree with most of your points on the Automatons and that they really need to work on the Rocket Striders, Barrage Tanks, Hulk Bruisers and Heavy Devastators the most.
Rocket Striders, I absolutely hate this enemy, there is no cue for when they shoot their rocket, so if they spot you before you notice them you can and will be sniped. You can also hide behind cover like a solid wrong and the rocket can ragdoll you out of there which is horrible since on higher difficulties there are usually other bots shooting at you (the worst being the heavy devastator. I've also noticed that you can use the railgun and hit the rocket but it just knocks off the rocket slot instead of exploding, you can sometimes shoot the head clean off with railgun and it's still alive and able to walk and shoot the rocket at you. The weak points aren't as obvious for this enemy either as I've notice it's best to destroy one of the lefts to disable it without worries. Lastly there are just too many of these enemies walking around.
The Barrage Tank, also doesn't have a clear weak spot and is just there to cause even more ragdoll or one shots, it's already hard to take in all the chaos when there are 2 patrols firing at you so you won't have time to look in the air and see where the rocket will land. Most of the time you just have guess and run away but the rocket can either land on you killing you or near you ragdolling you into a group of bots. It's just a really annoying enemy to face while dealing with everything else.
Heavy Devastators, these are the absolute worst enemies on the bot front in my opinion, there machine gun does not stop firing once they are aggroed and they are way too accurate. I've seen a squad drop in on an eradicate mission and we landed in front of a heavy devastator and all of us got gunned down before we could even react. For an enemy with a shield on it's left arm you'd think that would be safe side to be on, but no they can shoot through the shield at times or they turn really quickly. It's just not fun dealing with them especially if you are in an open flat area, not to mention they don't stop chasing or firing at you even if you are a good distance away. Additionally, their shield is way too strong, you can use a recoilless rocket to split a drop ship in half but if you hit the shield with the rocket it just staggers them.
Hulk Bruisers, this enemy received a command bunker turret on it's left arm and is way too accurate with it. As soon as it spots you there is no warning, it will shoot 3-4 shots from that turret which can either one shot or 2 shot you. The annoying thing is that it staggers you a lot, basically stun locking you until you die or you luckily survive, you pretty much have to spot them and deal with them immediately while they are backed up by Rocket striders, Heavy Devastators and Rocket Devastators. The worst part is that they are usually in patrols which spawn nearby, so you can easily bend the corner and boom stun locked to death.
Sorry for the long rant but those are just stuff I've noticed and wanted to add, Arrowhead needs to tone done the accuracy for some of these bots while also fixing those white rockets. The bots are my preferred faction to fight but I think you get a lot of cheap deaths because of how some of these units function.
I like fighting automatons because killing something simple like a heavy/docket devastator feels more rewarding due to having less if them, i usually compare the heavy devastator to a bile spewer, but because theres usually less devastators compared to the bile spewers, it feels better to kill because it has a heavier impact on how powerful the automaton army is, meanwhile i could kill 4 bile spewers and turn around only to see 7 more trying to kill me, not to mention the sheer number if high mobility, fast attacking, high damage enemies like the the Hunter that come in packs of like 12+ are just so annoying and make deaths to them just feel horrible
My friend hates Marauders and whenever they are on turrets. The sudden speed at which they just eliminate your hp, and how inconsistent it is with basically either missing you for 3 seconds or just immediately gunning you down, is annoying without a doubt. I like Rocket Devastators. The basic fire with their right arm does little damage so it's a non issue to me, when they fire rockets they stand still and widen their stance. If it made a loud noise like it was screaming (like a Fus Ro Dah but instead of a scream causing an unrelenting force it's 4 rockets) it would be a much better audio queue. But aside from that, yeah I agree the readability on their attacks is awful. Bruiser Hulks are the bane of my existence atm
The appeal of the game isn’t in holding our hands and being more video game-y.
Military organizations dont usually telegraph, it could be designed that way?
There’s a broader discussion about how necessary “realism” is for sci-fi/fantasy games… yes it wouldn’t make sense for real world militaries to telegraph their attacks lol but in a game I think it makes perfect sense to have the strongest abilities be telegraphed a little bit so the players can respond appropriately and feel cool while doing it haha
@bbodyboi the bots literally flinch if you shoot them, it is said that they are designed in a way that makes them more human than simple robots.
Lack of pre-mission telegraphing I 100% agree on. Helldivers 2 issue, to my mind, is missions running together. Your note of wanting to fight everything all at once is the reason I abandoned ship - however your suggestion for what I viewed as minor variations in spawns to be presented as visible mission modifiers is one thing I have wanted since the beginning.
We have something of a loot game, but are given very very very little for players to consider before diving. People gear to generally be effective, because there is basically nothing to prepare for specifically... except everything.
Enemy weighted spawns as mission modifiers would bring me back to the game.... at least for a bit until some other shortcomings in the mission design running together start to wear thin, but AT LEAST it would facilitate a nice feedback loop of running specialized load outs (from time to time), and gathering up some of the lesser wanted Warbond kit for those odd instances they might function as hard counters.
honestly I agree, only 2 bots I have noticed that telagraph their attack is the rocket trooper, and rocket devastator, since both tense and the trooper raises their rocket launcher, but I like it like that, it reminds me I am not a main character, I shouldn't rush bots who could open fire at any moment
i can hear the elitist bot divers fuming up already from the "bots are poorly designed" line alone
You are correct I am one of those people
While telegraphing might help you survive a 1 or 3 enemy encounter when there are multiple rocket and tank enemies, which there always are, it won't matter. I run Super Helldive bots all day long and never die more then a few time a mission if at all. The number one one reason I see most people fail in pugs is due to a poor loadout. You need to deal with heavy enemies immediately and have a primary that can stagger the fodder. Turrets excel in keeping the horde thined out or watching your back. Med to heavy armor with explosive resistance will also stop most thing from one hit killing you other then the big turrets that do telegraph.
i dont care about no telegraph, like others said the telegraph is them turning towards you since they do turn pretty slow, i just wish the rocket striders didnt send me 50 feet away from the cover im using after they hit the cover...
I propose that for the reinforced scout striders, they add a small flash for the main guns, and if they're about to fire their rockets, they should stomp and lock into the ground (kind of like the sentry from ultrakill) and have maybe a half a second charge on that rocket where we can see the fuel ignite before firing
I think It would make it both visually interesting as well as give the enemy a drawback for using their strongest weapon
But what if it was non telegraped by design? There is scary boxing technique that non telegraphed.
I honestly love tilted spawn tables, but for the love of democracy make it visible before missions as a modifier...it honestly sucks when you take an arc thrower and it's all nursing spewers, or take RR and oops all pouncers. The not-funness of taking the wrong weapon type in Helldivers is higher than for DRG or Killing Floor, where basically everything is viable.
I actually prefer bot mechanic. Not telegraphing attack makes bot front much more wild and unpredictable, kinda like real war. You basically never know when and where will the bullet with your name on it come from. Sometimes you get slaughtered withouth warning and there's really not much you can do. It makes the bot front much more brutal experience and show that sometimes in life there is nothing but luck to save you. I kinda enjoy that. Keeps things fresh and scary.