Do you Regret Allowing 4-Strokes to Race Pro Motocross??
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 มิ.ย. 2024
- In Chapter 307 of the Gypsy Tales Podcast, we are thrilled to welcome a true legend in the world of motocross, Davey Coombs, President of MX Sports. Dive into an in-depth conversation where we explore the rich history, present dynamics, and future possibilities of motocross racing.
Davey Coombs, a key figure in shaping the motocross landscape, shares his invaluable insights and experiences from his extensive career. From the grassroots beginnings to the pinnacle of professional racing, Coombs opens up about the challenges, triumphs, and the relentless passion that drives the sport forward
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The AMA handicap 2 strokes and gave a displacement advantage to the four stroke period .
manufacturers plan... get nearly double the displacement so we can beat the 2 strokes.. then sell the public more expensive bikes and charge them thousands in parts for each rebuild and rake in the money... ama = derrr ok
Agree make cc cap the same for 2strokes and 4 strokes and the 2strokes will come back...
@whiteknight1246 I agree and remove the traction control, and wheelie control.
And let the best talent rise the top.
@@jamesstacey529 yeah its why I dont like the electric stuff thats coming, im sure the bikes fun, and easy maintenence, but it drops the skill level, shoot 4 strokes dropped it some as well.
@@whiteknight1246 Preach brother 👍
The local 125cc class is beyond entertaining and this boys are battling having a blast. Perfect MX
Nothing beats a 125C gate drop!
They got the math way wrong, but Yamaha was well aware of it when they pushed for 450cc. They knew damn well a 450 was going to mop the floor with a 250 2T.
manufacturers plan... get nearly double the displacement so we can beat the 2 strokes.. then sell the public more expensive bikes and charge them thousands in parts for each rebuild and rake in the money... ama = derrr ok
It was a straight up cheater bike! Yamaha let a heavyweight on steroids beat up a middleweight
It's funny or ironic how Yamaha is the only Japanese manufacturer that still makes full line of 7:46 2 strokes. Makes you wonder if it was planned lol
Shows you the incompetence and lack of IQ in AMA.
Yamaha was smarter and had the vision.
Now major sponsors are leaving every year(talked about many times on multiple platforms), only a matter of time.
Yamaha originally had a 420cc with Doug Henry winning the US MX championship. Cold hard fact is equal displacement 2 stroke wins.
The AMA would be back to it's golden years for the second time if they brought back 2 Strokes. EVERYONE would be so pumped.
that would be dope because 2 strokes would actually keep being innovated every year just like a 4 stroke
That's not a true statement.
Honda would seriously resist this sort of change.
I don't believe many riders would be pumped
Not at all
Dude could you imagine everyone still racing 2 strokes 🔥
Or imagine if all the OEM had continuously thrown big $ at developing and evolving their smokers, instead of most of them totally discontinuing them.
I believe there would be more people interested and involved in motocross. The 4 strokes are too dam expensive to buy and maintain.
Would have made a lot better riders through the years. The level of toughness went out when 2 strokes stopped racing sx/mx
Racing would be so much better I hate 4 strokes I raced in the early 2000 when racing was way more popular than it is now the sport has went backwards
@@Michael-lz3bk I started racing around 2000-01 until 14 up until 25 I agree with most of that but wouldn’t say it went backwards. Being a man’s man I think has. Those dudes just seemed tougher. I remember growing up a lot different then these kids did to tho.
I wish they’d make the displacement size so that we could bring 2 strokes back. It would make for far more entertainment
The logical next question would've been, why not change the rules now 250 vs 250, why no follow up question to bringing in a 125 two stroke class, wasted opportunity
Don’t think many 125’s would do the triples on today’s Supercross tracks.
@@user-xy5qf3lo5d Triples don't make the race, how about tracks that don't kill off the riders before the seasons end.
I agree…
It really did the sport a disservice. Especially for privateers. It’s still fun but it was so much better with a pack of screamers. All electric bikes will kill the sport for me.
Let 250cc 2 strokes race 250f’s give the fans what they want in a couple years it will be all electric anyways
this is honestly the best solution. If youve ever ridden a 250 2T AND 250 4T back to back on a track. The 250 2t is a bear compared to the 250f, but if you can handle it , its faster.
This is the ruleset in my country. They're actually really even, especially when guys spend a bit of money on the engine of the four stroke. Provides a much cheaper way to be competitive for those with less to spend
All electric no one will watch
@@matta4756I agree with that. It takes something special from the sport.
@@matta4756No one is watching now. This is why the major networks don’t carry MX.
As soon as powersports goes all electric I will save so much money. By not buying any of it.
start buying now, and just keep riding.
As someone whose only known 2 strokes I recently rode a 2024 Yamaha 250f and holy shit I was blown away at the amount of technology and how insanely different but good it was! I know Jase has always praised the Yz 250f’s but their hype is real!
2 strokes with modern electronics i.e. traction control, etc. AND displacement equivalency should be allowed, and right now.
2 strokes got screwed and the racing back then was so much better. The tracks didnt get destroyed and the racing was better because of that.
Controversial opinion : IF 250 2 strokes still were the main bikes and the 450 wasn’t introduced EVER, JS7 would’ve been the biggest champion ever.
I agree and I also think a guy like Barcia might have better results as well.
I'm 64, and when the 426 came out I thought what a joke...about 6 months ago I gave away my last kx500...
If im not mistaken mitch payton was actually warning the ama about 4 strokes being such a huge advantage over the 2 strokes. He basically predicted that 2 strokes wouldnt be able to compete with 4 strokes in the long run
Your mistaken. Mitch knows nothing about nothing. And you know less than him. Delete your comment
@@Drdddiiisss-ho6uu listen to the whiskey throttle podcast with mitch payton, its 2 episodes. u look like a fool
manufacturers plan... get nearly double the displacement so we can beat the 2 strokes.. then sell the public more expensive bikes and charge them thousands in parts for each rebuild and rake in the money... ama = derrr ok
@Drdddiiisss-ho6uu what's your reasoning? Cause mitch is pretty smart about that stuff in my opinion
@@nouseforaname4100he's trolling..
If you allow electric bikes might as well put them in their own class, same with the 2 strokes, put them in their own class 125, 250, 250f, 450f, electric, don't intertwine the different CCs or battery with gas
The original displacement rule for 4 strokes was for up 550cc which is why KTM had 520s and 540s. It was changed to 450cc limit in 2003. What baffles me is that they saw what the yzf400 did and still made a rule to allow 250 4strokes in the 125 class. The limit at most should have been 200cc in that class.
Husaberg raced a few nationals too with 550cc IIRC.
Powers that be, listen up!…….if you all let electric bikes take over , many of us will divorce the sport!
Yea I couldn't imagine watching races with practically no sound..wouldn't make sense..
bro cmon, if the racing is good and it has Jett, Tomac, Roczen, etc no matter what bike they are riding, you know damn well that you will be watching
Good! It doesn't need ignorant people like you in it anyways. If a simple change in a powerplant makes you divorce a sport you are 100% a fake fan to start with anyways🤣🤣🤣. What an idiot. By the way they aren't taking over they are an addition and huge growth area for the sport.
@@Carbonx007 Uhhh...I have been to plenty of them and they are awesome
@@kurtheidelbachI could watch TopFuel dragsters if they were all EV lol. Alot of people watch them for the ground shaking and 8,000rpm V8s but electric motors can rev alot higher and give some sound depending on the battery. Plus you aren't killing the planet either and I say this as a 500 2T owner
Doug Henry dominated the '97 Las Vegas supercross. His heat race win over Emig was impressive. In the main, he got the holeshot and just ran away with it.
2 strokes died the day that Windham went 1-1 to beat Carmichael at Unadilla.
I had a 99 yz400 back in 2000 it was great such controllable power. One of my most loved bike I owned
E bikes should have their own class rather than try integrating with combustion engines.
They shouldn't even exist F electric
Yet, he can literally fix it tomorrow by having 250 vs 250 and creating a 125 class.... I just listened to Jace talk to Deegan about how the moto media is very careful. This was a golden opportunity for "why has there not been a change on the pro level in favor of two strokes." Make his ass admit that Honda is his daddy.
Also, he just confirmed they're going to combine electric bikes into the series. I don't care how easy they are to ride or how fast they are. That WILL put the final nail in the coffin for moto. Nobody is going to watch that shit.
They said that with 4 strokes. No one wanted to hear a bike that sounds like a wet fart.
@denniswilder3014 and the result is now there are less tracks, less riders, and the sport is smaller than it was in the late 90s early 00s.
@@lriddle21tracks are closing so fast, if they didn't get going with the electric bikes soon, there won't be any riders to race the series due to no tracks to grow up riding.
Why are so many crapping on about nobody wants to watch electric bikes? It is a riders sport..real riders care about what the bike is like to ride and race, not what it sounds like. So what difference does it make to the average weekend warrior who actually buys and rides / races motocross bikes, just how many people watch pro racing on tv?
The success of the sport on television doesn't make the sport more accessible or cheaper for the people who actually participate in the sport
@@lriddle21 not in Massachusetts there are 5 tracks in a 50 mile radius 4 in nh 3 in maine a few in ct. And bike sales has not dropped off for most manufacturers even with there being 10 major manufacturers.
I had it good growing up and racing in the early 90s I ride a 4 stroke enduro now though and that fmf sounds 👌
Just bring back the open class, and let guys race either 250 or 450, AND the open class.
We can't hear the electric bikes. I never know they are there. That is a major problem
Not for folks who wanna build a track in a suburban area. Try that now with 4-strokes - it wouldn't stand a chance due to noise
Peter Johansson was racing the same factory YZ400F in the 500 GPs in 1997.
Probably the most important question ever asked on this channel. CHANGE THE RULES! Split things up by electric, strokes, and displacement. Make it a level playing field for everyone. Ya, of course the math was wrong.
Then literally get rid of the displacement rule for 250 class. If ya'll know you messed up, fix it. Limit 2-strokes to STOCK engines with any pipe/silencer and reed combo. They want to protect four strokes is what he's saying by "get it right" with electric motocross bikes. If they wanted to get it right, they would remove the displacement restriction on 2-strokes today.
Jeez this episode is going to stir up some reactions
Honda and the AMA had a major hand in removing the 2 stroke from pro competition, Honda did not want to invest in the R&D of 2 strokes because of the future emission restrictions that were coming from most major governments, all the Japanese manufacturers were the major players in motocross competition so they had the most influence but their decisions were based purely on profit margins and they literally handed the 2 stroke market to KTM who had far more vision than their Japanese competition and look where KTM is today outselling every single Japanese bike on the market.
Two strokes in the 450 class should be open. If you have the sack to go rip a 500cc bike one a national track, good luck. Make them competitive Atleast.
A few of the pros today could handle a 500 2T at its potential. I think you would find some tracks the 500 2T is better, some the 450 4T is better.
The only rule I would add to your hypothetical is a rider/team has to pick one and stay with it through the year. No switching back an forth (which factories could afford to do) based on the track.
It's pretty obvious that the 4 stroke and its costs associated with owning a 4 stroke drove people out of the sport. Also to blame are the EPA, the AMA, and the Manufactures. I'm all for new technology, but with new technology comes additional costs and new problems. To keep the sport viable, we need more people to participate, and this is where the cost factor plays a part. Racing in general has broken the bank for many of us, as its no longer affordable. I would like to see a new organization started and only cater to the 2 stroke.
Right A 4 stroke top end only last 20 to 30 hours,, California democrats banned 2 strokes, this started it ,, f democrats
Listen to DC talking about “rules” like he’d ever enforce them 😂😂😂 we should ask Brennan Schofield how he feels about this conversation 🤷🏽♂️
I was at BROOME TIOGA mid 90s when HENRY won on a thumper
It wasn't a question of allowing, four strokes were always legal, it was a question of how big of an engine woulod be allowed to race against the 250 two strokes...The technical experts at the time thought they should be limited to 350cc given the advancing technologies, which should have been done.
Brilliant podcast
As for electric bikes, after the initial novelty wears off, you will see a huge drop in spectators.
I will be 100% out. I have friends who were as big of moto geeks as you can find and they punched out when 4 strokes took over 15 yrs ago and never came back till Jett and Deegan brought them back recently.
I dont actually think ive ever met a fan who was for electric bikes. they already killed the 2 stroke by letting them race. now they tryna kill engines all together
I actually think they might really catch on in municipalities where tracks get a lot of noise complaints. I think a lot of local governments might start forcing it on in certain places. I think the new KX is down on horsepower because Kawi is trying to be more noise compliant so they restricted air & exhaust. I think it's gonna make MX more dangerous if riders cannot hear each other coming. I don't know if I'm excited about electric bikes. A dirt bike is supposed to make noise. It's how riders know if someone is coming. Now they're gonna all sound like golf carts. Silent but deadlies
I won't ever watch or support the sport again if electric takes over
@joelboutier1736 do you know what you say to those governments.... F them and F the government
Back in the day I was riding a 250 two stroke, I bought a YZ400 when they came out in 1998, I gave it a chance and I was not having as much fun, I switched to 125 two strokes and the fun factor was back. I always enjoyed going to live races with the two strokes, my first Supercross with the four strokes was my last, obnoxious and loud, I miss the sound and the smell of the two strokes. It is simple, four strokes do not need a CC advantage over the two strokes anymore, remove the rule and let the same displacement race wether it is a two stroke or a four stroke, I think the racing would be exciting and make it more affordable for the privateers.
So can they change the laws or the rules so that it can be brought back down to 150s and 300s or is that even an option?
Davey points to Yamaha being a force behind the displacement limits back in the '90s but the limit then was 550 or 600 cc, which was way above the size 4-stroke that Yamaha was using. I was an early adaptor, as I tried to "race-prep" my DR 350 Zook. $3000 later I had a 300 pound trail bike that had a 435cc motor making perhaps 3 more horsepower. Waste of my money, but bought the new YZ 400, then a bunch of 250Fs over the years, so I don't hate the thumpers. That said, I also love the 2-strokes and think pretty much all the benefits gained with them could have been achieved by simply making the displacements of the 2-strokes bigger....as in 150cc and 300cc. The 125 is not enough for a full-sized adult as it lacks tourque and make 35-37 ponies. A true 150cc smoker could make much more like the 40 horsepower that a 250F makes, allowing 200 pound adults to make better use of the bike. A 300cc for the premier class would allow a much better torque curve for a more ideal power style yet allow the racerboy to port and mod to 55 ponies if he wants. I truly feel our sport would be much better if somehow we could go back to 2-strokes but I know that won't happen now.
Stock KTM 250sx 2T makes over 60hp
@@user-pp5or5og4k From Motocross Action's test of the 2022 KTM 250 SX two stroke "The 49.23 horsepower KTM 250SX is 3 horsepower more powerful than the YZ250."
Easy Fix, put 150cc and 300cc Smokers, knock the dB’s down on the 4 Pukes, allow leaded fuel on the smokers.
leaded fuel will never be allowed because of the safety risks of inhaling lead all day every day
@@Lancer2004 Quit listening to the woke idiots. The extremely small amount you’d inhale wouldn’t adversely affect anyone! For Godsakes it’s still used!
it needs to be 180cc
The 4 strokes should also have a stock motor
i was with you until leaded fuel. 🤨
I think the 2-strokes kept amateur racing within a reasonable budget compared to the current 4-strokes.
What would prevent them from adjusting numbers and increasing 2 stroke displacement to balance the competition?
Make the 450 class OPEN CLASS... run what you brung... 500cc Two Stroke twin cylinder? Cool. Stark Varg? Cool. 450 4t? Cool.... BRING back the 125/150 2t Class!!!
Oh shut up
1997 Gatorback 250 Doug henry took 6th with the Yamaha and it was a blue bike..
If this is true you guys were sleeping peacefully. 😉
The YZ 400 Prototype was presented at the pre season race in Bauquiere 1996 and raced the 500cc world championship with Bartolini and Johansson that year. In 1997 Henry already rode the evolution with the carbon subframe instead of titanium which was used in 1996. 😅
Ok i’ll watch again, u let the guest speak. Thats the only thing u were missing as an interviewer. I get ur excited to talk to the guests, but we just look to you to lead the convo with your good questions. if you do that, ur doing your job properly. Good job on this one. All interjections were great at directing the convo to the meat of the topic. Good job again 👍👍👍
U must read ur comments on the vids because u seem receptive to feedback from your listeners. Much appreciated ❤
I don't miss the blue haze and sore throat at an enclosed stadium SX event.
Ride a two stroke if you want. Seems like most people race in the age classes where they're allowed anyway.
YOU BELIEVE THIS!
Not everyone else.....I think most want it like it is
Already covered a million times, but 4 strokes didn't "kill" 2 strokes. Allowing the 4 stroke displacement advantage did.
Its not just the ama and rules that changed to 4 strokes it is the epa.the epa forced manufacturers to only allow so much percentage of there off road products be epa clean.even in for off road or competition use only
All I just heard was “as soon as I figure out how to make money off electric bikes without losing the money from the ICE bikes, we’re gonna do it again” . I used to really like and respect these people, that illusion was shattered with a healthy dose of reality once I really got a peek behind the curtain.
I didn't know davey combs started racer x
This can be rectified. Line the 250cc smokers up on the gate with the 250cc john deere bikes. Then allow the manufacturers to produce a 450cc smoker to run with the 450cc john deere bikes. The privateers could then have affordable race bikes.
Road a friends 450. Scared myself. I know I’m 50 and my riding abilities have waned but I have 2 questions for you guys. How many non professional riders can actually ride a 450 to anywhere near its FULL potential? How would lap times compare with pro riders on 350cc 4 strokes instead of the 450’s?
I feel they dhould have a 125 two stroke class that’s required for rookies to race as would be great to have that sound back
I'll never put my child on an electric motorcycle.
Environmental psyops .
He won’t ride in sanctioned events.
Sucks having you as a parent 🤣Another one that restricts their kids enjoyment because of their own idiotic uninformed information 🤦♂🤦♂Environmental psyops what a complete idiot!
I'm pretty sure at one point it was up to 550 4-strokes were allowed, but yamaha still chose to start with 400.
as far as being 6 feet tall and riding a 450, 450s arent really physically bigger than a 125, they're all full-size. unless maybe he meant the extra leverage helps with more power
The smoke from the two strokes is why four strokes took over. The indoor stadium races didn't want the smoke.
I go to tons of indoor races and even with 4T's have yet to not hear large groups not complain about the smell still. Many in upper seating even get headaches. Sure, there is a small niche in the group like myself that thinks it's cool but definitely doesn't do anything positive to increase attendance.
Absolute top interview, thanks Gypsy and Davey, the change was huge and definitely agree the noise is a real issue . Hope as Davey says that they get it right with new tech as it must be so hard to predict future technology gains.
The thing is 4 strokes are better indoors only. The smoke all that smoke makes sick. I ride a Yam yz 465 2 stroke. NBR !!!
E-bikes need their own series.
27 years later 😢😢
If they’re changing th box again it should have electric, two strokes and four strokes in TRULY EQUAL and FAIR Rules. Which means modern 450 four strokes should race at newly legalized 350 or 400 2strokes when engine builders and manufacturers build them at the very least.
What was the best part?
All of it. 🎯🙌
i think they should put jet on a cr500 that would be great to watch.
Motocross make the same miscalculation that WSBK did when it started. WSBK allowed twins 1000cc vs 750cc for four-cylinders, in no small part because they never really thought a Ducati or Guzzi of the mid-80's could ever compete with an RC30 or OW-01. Ducati develop the bike and within just a few years it was dominating for a decade until Honda did a twin of its own.
The YZ400 had a lot of fan interest but also was competitive immediately. That would have been the time to evaluate the rules as Coombs said.
Not sure how you fix it now. Reduce displacement of both classes? Allow 2T more displacement? It feels like the ship has sailed.
The MxGp EMX class lets their competitors race the 250 4 strokes and 2 strokes.
250s should be an experimental class as is a stepping stone. Hence why they should let them run the 300sx as they allow the 350 to race in the 450s
Their strategy and “idea” was way off. That must of been so cool to experience the 1998 - 2005 the two types of bike Coexisting until it got regulated.
I would want to see them change the 450 class to 350cc 4 stroke and 350cc 2 stroke.
PEOPLE !!!! this does not relate to ALL of the other OFF ROAD COMPETITIONS that use TWO STROKES..and they're are MANY.! factories will continue to make two strokes because they are lighter and better..They will never go away, and are in great demand...
Bring back the three og classes. Equal ccs and lets have some fun.
Should just cap the horsepower for classes. Would be the easiest way to mix electric and combustion.
Are they in the same location?
Guys, you are all totally forgetting what 4 strokes did to the whole face of the sport. Almost overnight, supercross tracks and outdoor tracks changed due to the increase of low end torque from these new monsters. A 250 two stroke isnt going to be competetive in a four stroke field, James worked his ass off to make it work, at its peak power and technology development. They are fun as heck, dont get me wrong, hell I have one, but there is no way it was ever as fast as my crf450r.
DC, spend some of that Honda kickback money on proper flaggers. Oh yeah....time for equal displacement, wait...no, sorry. Honda wont let me do it.
I was at broomme tioga when henry showed up w four stroke we laughed i was with a 2stroke wizard....his cr250 could smoke that 400
Instead of focusing on balance between 4 stroke and electric focus on a class where 2 stroke, electric and 4 stroke can compete in both classes together and everyone wins
125 vs 200, 250 vs 300/350, and open class capped at 500.
It’s a no brainer, and has been for ten plus years. 🤷🏼
Australian race rules allow Ebikes so long as they're horsepower limited for the relevant class (eg 48HP ,60HP). And for now they're only allowed in club and interclub events.
Essentially these rules give electric bikes a big advantage in instant power,while being far heavier and/or time limited. It will be interesting what rules they come up with once Ebikes manage to bring the weight down.
For example should Ebikes have their power curves limited so they're identical to the average of gas powered bikes in that class? Is that a dumb limit that deliberately stifles progress? It's a weird situation thats for sure!
Bring back the 2 strokes to ama MX/SX the racing would be way better right now it feels like car racing with the 4 strokes the cost to entry for non factory guys would help with 2 strokes and to ride one takes more skill than a 250/450 4 stroke and of course the sound
Yamaha started the demise of 2 stroke pro motocross yet are the only Japanese manufacturer still making 2 stroke motocross bikes.
Duke finch was there
The electric bikes are quiet and maybe less expensive to maintain. Those are good reasons to allow them. They may help slow the pace of having riding land taken away from us. Lowering the cost of ownership may grow the sport,
I am a 125 guy and I rode a Yamaha 250 F. When I was told it was allowed to compete against 125's I said that is like cheating. My riding buddies recently told me to avoid buying a used 250 four stroke because of the cost and frequency of rebuilds.
Let the people decide what they want to watch.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Skirt around the question. Still ... Four strokes may make more power, you know, because they are almost twice the displacement, but the racing was just so much better during the two-stroke era.
We all said the math was wrong at the time lol
2 Strokes 4 Ever 🏁
2 strokes pollute 6-10x more than equivalent 4 strokes, it was a good change.
Where did u come up with 6 to 10 x that 2 strokes pollute more than 4s? They burn oil ...but the new modern DI 2s burns waaay cleaner / uses less oil and the new synthetic oils burn more completely. If a 4 stroke has'2 twice the cylinder volume and has a 30 to 50 % higher rpm ceiling ( my KX250 peak power was at 8200. A 250f and 350f can wind up to 12000 to 14000 rpm . This is toxic exhaust gases. I remember going to Arenacross races'in Worchester Ma when all were 2 strokes and been their when all were 4s. The choke factor/air quality is worse now . Lock yourself in a garage and run one at a time. Record the time it takes to pass out....change bikes ....repeat....then get back to me....lets c how that goes before making unproven statements.
The 4 strokes killed amateur racing, and riding areas. The cost of maintaining 4 strokes killed dirt bike racing for us of less financial means, and the louder 4 strokes closed riding areas as well.
250 two strokes against 250 four and 450 two strokes against 450 four strokes. Cc for cc.
Fine. Let’s just settle on a compromise and go 3 stroke.
Everything should be revised and you should be able to race 2t 4t and electric
He said he likes the 150, yet they won't even allow those against the 250f. Also, gypsy loves the 350f, why didn't he mention that they could fix some things by making a turn to 350f in 5 years or something. Thus, 250 2 stroke more competitive and the 450f is too much. They actually detune them. A 350f would be enough. Gypsy should have said, fix it and go to 350f. Jmho
The day the sport goes all electric is the day the sport dies.
The costs have to come down
So raise CC limit for two strokes in the classes…
Not many people will pay money to watch electric bikes race MX/SX. Electric bikes for trials, indoor super enduro racing would be passable.