+Avira Rosalita Name is rather easy, just get used to using a pool of 2 names for your characters, 1 male, 1 female (only gets a problem on your 3rd playthrough) There, took 20 seconds, now lets get into the game! Character creation? Shouldn't be too bad... Sliders... Crap...
The Elder Scrolls games are off-limits for precisely this reason. If you don't actually put a knife to my throat, I'll be searching up tamrielic translators before you can say Caius Cosades.
That's admittedly one thing I didn't like about World of Warcraft, and games like that in general. I hate when there's a "Best build" for any given class, and how people will actually hate you for going against the grain and doing something else. I like having the choice to make myself however I want to be, and the ability to make my own personal playstyle work.
That's something I really liked about morrowind. Choosing a faction altered people's perception of you. Choosing to become a werewolf was a crippling decision since if anyone found out you were ostracized. There was more to choose than good or bad.
+Jack Hume That's an important aspect of choice to note, and one that a lot of "choice-based narrative" games seem to miss: consequences. If the player doesn't experience consequences for their choices, then the choices are shown to never have been choices at all. In more mechanics-oriented choices (chasing the mushroom, for example) the consequences are fairly natural, but more complex or narrative-oriented choices don't always offer such natural consequences, and developers have to pay particular attention to providing meaningful consequences for all of their choices. For as flat as the actual writing could be in Morrowind, it felt more like a holistic world than Skyrim to me and many other players. Part of that has to do with the way exploration is handled, for sure, but part of it is also the way they handled choice. In Skyrim, there are almost never consequences for any choice you make. In Morrowind, however, there are.
Agreed, and I feel like I've had no impact on skyrim because of it. It feels like the game wants you to be the hero but you're more of a camera on legs with tools to defend yourself while everything unfolds around you.
Yeah. It should be noted that there's no real conflict in Skyrim either. You can do anything and everything. Conflict and consequences are all but gone in Skyrim.
The other thing that upset me about skyrim, a technical issue to admit, but it felt unfinished. A lot of the scripted events lacked finish and seemed to still be in their storyboard phase. Most specifically when Aela becomes your forebear. Her wrist is slit and then you just hear a splat and the bowl is full of a red liquid that doesn't move and that's it. Even the final battle with alduin is very flat. You can face him at level one if you never choose to level up, and you can literally just stand there and let the NPC's kill him. Its all very unfortunate and made me rather sad.
Jack Hume most if not all of skyrims problems can be mostly modded out. there is a mod for just about every problem. Dragons too weak deadly dragons mod makes them epic or even ridiculously powerful if desired. No consequences for joining a factions enemy well there are mods that make the other side turn on you if u are a member of their enemy And so on and so forth. What makes skyrim a good game in my opinion Is really just how much freedom the devs give to let people change it. Because of that it can go from the game a person can't stand to the game that feels just right.
I feel like this is exactly what made the Pokemon franchise successful. The simple amount of viable team builds and move sets (in single player) allow for so many choices and different approaches to how you can progress.
As a DM you're basically the Game Dev for a tabletop so I can understand the overlap. I watch them because I want to be a college professor someday. And I I'm looking for hints about how to make class Not suck. Make students excited to sit in a classroom environment because the discussion between students is often more interesting than the material. And as long as I can keep them discussing the material it's good for their learning.
Still, often even this calculating has value. In the fact that it pushes you to develop more specific technical skills that can be usefull in problem solving in other areas than gaming. Just wanted to say I'm a recent follower of your page and I just love your work! Keep it up! All the best from Brazil!
The real fun starts, when you later learn that actions you took weren't actually linear, but choices. The best example I have for this is one scene in Spec Ops: The Line, where a crowd of civilians is blocking your way and isn't going to let you pass. So I took my weapon and slaughtered them. A few month later I saw a video featuring this exact scene and one of the designers playing it: He just pulled out his pistol and shot 2 or 3 times in the air and the crowd fled the scene. To be totally honest: I was devastated after that - I had killed civlians without need at this point and even though they were just part of a game I felt guilty.
that's why I hate that armor looks and stats are often stapled together. I can't choose the look I like, 'cause the game expects me to choose the best stats; thus, what appears to be a choice becomes a calculation BOOO
I have barely any experience with video games, but I’m actually finding these viseos really interesting and helpful as an aspiring novelist, and I think I might be able to improve my storytelling by emulating the gaming medium and blurring the line between character and audience to enhance immersion, and you’ve actually given me a much more profound respect for gaming, so thank you an awful lot
I love the bit where you're talking about how objectives in games these days always line up. My favorite space game is Freespace 2. One of the reasons I love it so much is because before each mission you go through a briefing of what to expect and what your goals are, but the missions don't always go as planned. A mission that has you escorting one ship might destroy it right off the bat, changing things around instantly. I want more games with that level of unpredictability.
The reason the mushroom moves in Super Mario Bros., is probably just because they played the game with the mushroom not moving at first and thought it was boring so they made it move. They probably didn't think about all of this. ( : One reason I'm saying this is because in SMB3, the mushroom will move in different directions depending on how you hit the block, giving the player some control on its movement. Not necessarily moving toward the unknown (right). Bottomline: Playtesting = Very important
I was playing RE5 just minutes ago, and it got me thinking that the item management screen in between chapters might fit as a choice moment in the first playthrough by having the player chose between what weapons and items the player will take into the next unknown mission.
There is also the issue of overchoice. Overwhelming the player with so many choices when they just want to play the game. Which explains why perks are unlocked slowly in Call of Duty games.
Sooo it's 2020 and we have iterated through a couple of "talent tree" options in WoW and none was as fun as the original one. While there were certain best builds in terms of damage output, there were enough fun builds that came really close. There were also builds to horse around (mage POM instant pyroblast for example) that were not great for raids. Which, in your words, would also be a choice between two things the player wants and has to decide for one.
3:40 Cave Story's Hell stage. The safest path is the slowest path. Death comes easy. Unless you are amazing, or you take it slow, you WILL die. And then the game asks you to do it 4 times faster than seems reasonably possible.
There's also those skills/items/characters on some games that are kinda the best thing you should use JUST if you can handle it. Some examples are bad made, complicated character on fighting games that have waaay more potential than other limited-characters when you know how to use it. Or a skill that ends up doing more damage than every other skill when used correctly. There are plenty of choices, but when you get experience with the mechanics, all choices are thrown into the garbage because now there's no point in using the complicated item which, because you now know how to use it correctly, it's the best item.
That is what Bioware and Obsidian does well, They give you choices that impact the outcome of the whole gameplay, which feels rewarding and complex each time you play it. :3
+LordBloodySoul The choices don't really change the gameplay (or the central mechanics for that matter) at all. They only change the narrative and some minor gameplay elements, and even then the narrative branches only for a short time usually.
***** Still it is feeling like the story is far greater that way. The Witcher series is one that actually can end in over 60 different ending scenarios, which is a lot considering that it only branches over 3 games.
Hearing this video gave me some clarity on an issue I often run into in some of my hobbies: Competitive games with highly variable customization based off of differing set values will always have a Metagame present that conditions Calculation into the game. Generally for me to enjoy these games I've had to restrict myself into formats where diversity is an at least enjoyable option versus what would otherwise be a sea of mechanically superior, homogenized builds a la Commander for MTG or UnderUsed for Pokemon. I'm still going to play these games despite the issues with Calculation they provide (especially since a bad habit of mine is to crank Calculative thought into how I play games regardless of whether or not it detracts from my actual ability to have fun), but having it phrased in a way like this gives me solid food for thought on the matter
Spelunky is amazing at achieving this mario type of choice. The game is incredibly difficult, but there are helpful items you can buy that make the game way easier. To buy those items you have to collect gold, seems simple enough, BUT searching for more gold increases the risk of taking a hit. You can decide to kill off the shopkeeper and take all his things for free, but THEN he will be waiting for you at the end of every next level, holding a shotgun. BUT ALSO you have a limited number of hit points, and the only way to replenish them is to find a damsel and bring her to the end of the level. BUT ALSO each level has a timer and when it runs off - The Ghost comes in, and if it touches you it's instakill. So you always have to balance how much you want to risk for the damsel, the gold and the items while the clock is ticking. Oh, and did I mention the game has permadeath? Which makes all your desisions REALLY matter, since you will start all over? Spelunky is awesome.
Obviously, when you get down to it, any decision that effects the mechanics of a game has a calculable solution to achieve the desired result the most effectively. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as the comperable decisions have an insignificant disadvantage to the calculable ones (Fighter and Rogue do the same damage with a different coat of paint), or, perhaps the better scenario, the desired result changes with the situation, forcing a recalculation and different approach (different enemies have different weaknesses magic/melee/etc.).
First time playing LISA has very tough choices. You walk into a cave, BAM! It's either your second party member's life (which removes their skills and abilities from the game permanently) or your arm (reducing damage output, defense, health, and increasing withdrawal symptoms for the main character permanently). It's much easier the second time, because then you can tell which cave to be careful of, and then change put your party member for a useless one.
Wow that is a heck of a coincidence, back in my grade 10 art class we had to find a photo of a simple landscape and paint it...now I'm watching this video and what pops up at 3:40 ...the exact photo I painted in that class, I still have the painting too, weird.
"If you find yourself just mindlessly mashing buttons to make the game progress, we're not doing our job." - Or the player is just ignoring the work you did do.
Alex Havener As a fellow Katawa Shoujo player, I know how it feels. I was trying to be the nice guy and comfort her but ended up fucking it up in the scenes that followed.
Fuyu_Seishin12 "She's a friend, of course I'll comfort her. Wait a second. What are you doing? That's not what comfort means. THAT'S NOT WHAT COMFORT MEANS!"
Alex Havener Well I keep on forgetting how one thing could lead to another when it's a guy and a girl in a situation like that. The game makes you think hard about your decisions. The devs on that VN are geniuses on that.
Have you checked out full hearts a group of fans decided to make a game inspired by it as 4leaf studios wouldn't. PS nearly choose to comfort Misha too. XD
I think WoW is really instructive for choice, if you compare how it does it now with how it did it when this video was published or even before. The old MMO hardcore mindset was that choices were challenges to be overcome. Make the wrong choices, and your character would be 'gimped' - the ultimate failure state of the game, or at least a position that was hard to come back from. But as WoW has tended towards greater accessibility, it has also tended towards balancing those choices so there are not 'right' or 'wrong' choices, which has in turn made the choices more interesting in themselves (at the expense of the meta-game of not gimping your toon). You will choose between mediocre but guaranteed boosts, more powerful but chance-driven boosts, and situational abilities. You will also be called on to make choices that suit your playstyle - some talents are clearly more for the solo player, while some are only of any use in raids.
This makes me think of Bravely Default's job system. Each time I obtained an asterisk from a boss and gained a new job, I would immediately want to implement the abilities from that job into my team. However when I would do this, it would often compromise my build in one way or another, causing me to think of a new build and a new strategy. Either that, or I simply couldn't find a place for that job in any build I could make at the time, and the job would go ignored.
When it comes to choice in games, Yahtzee's version of self contained narrative is an interesting route. A game that starts off with more and more branching paths that leads to a wide array of scenarios and possibilities, while it also ties up loose ends and ultimately leads to the same conclusion in the end. The Walking Dead is a prime example. Multiple paths and different decisions to make that all comes to a cohesive whole.
I'm sure you'll be getting plenty of hits from the WoW community about this as the "Talent Points = Choices!" crowd gathers in the wake of the talent trees becoming 6 3-point CHOICES to be made and changed as needed. This explains the whole choice issue quite well.
Bob is best when he leaves his personal preferences at the door, and analyzes in combination with all his background/trivia knowledge... he is hit and miss in that regard, but when he hits, he hits it good ;D I think he's gotten better at it, at least with "At the Movies" and "The Big Picture", I don't watch gameoverthinker so I can't say
4:30 I might add that as a roleplayer This was a Major pain in the but to get around. my Hunter was a Marksmen and the way I made her(how my tree looked) was well not close to a decent or viable build. I recall stories from early wow day(didn´t have internet or a compute to run it so I missed it). About paladin Plate wielding warriors running around whit cloth becos that was a odd but still viable choice to make. Nowdays (cata-wrath not sure about burning crusade) there is even less of a choice it more or less have become are you a DPS, tank or healer thous 3 talents specs are what we can offer there is no other option.
not only the mushroom in SMB is choice and conflict ALMOST EVERY (which means approaches to infinity) obstacle in this game uses it with nice use of enemies, powerups and platforms
I can agree. Best example of that for me was in his review of Avatar where he said something like "It's possible that they didn't write a deep complex story so as not to distract from all this immersion." I'm still not sure what he meant. Surely a detailed, intricate story HELPS immersion as long as it's clearly conveyed, like with LotR or Bioshock. But whether his points are right or wrong, they are quite interesting. :P
Because of you guys, I learned about Bob and his Game Overthinking, and then I learned that he is weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeird, but in a good way, kinda like a Proto Extra Creditz, seriously why don't you get him aboard an episode, that would be an awesome crossover
I noticed this episode talked more about what isnt choice than about what is choice. Maybe a few more examples on what a good choice is would help quite a bit to further the episode as there are diferent ways to present choices (through gameplay, story, menus, etc.)
Heartily agree. And seeing that the last choice of the game was built in a way that resembles the colors of the moral wheel, I highly suspect that the choice you've made might play a crucial role in the next post-Shephard title, as the Bioware team is asking players to keep their saves. Mere speculation on my part, however. :)
It does, but largely, it matters little, I can name an example, high-level players have to choose between the Lambda Raizenolk, the best partizan, statistically speaking, the Lambda Patty Lumeria, which is for most the coolest-looking, but the most reliable considering it can be used between all classes, and the red partizan, which is the weakest of the trio but offers easy upgrades. I chose the Lumeria, a friend chose the red partizan, nobody thought less of us for it.
that is actually true, mostly what i had meant are the side-quests, since depending on which ones you do, when you return later (ie:the next day) things will actually be affected. although to be fair, when i wrote that i had only just got the game, and was all blinded by exitment.
This calculation is precisely what drove me out of playing Warhammer 40k. I ran certain units because they were fun or interesting and got openly scoffed because the "mathhammer" crowd has decreed once and for all that no logical gamer would use something that doesn't milk maximum efficiency from the point limit. Beating those people was a special joy, but as the game stores I went to got more and more competitive and less and less fun, I stopped playing altogether. Yeah, once someone says that they had to play for months before they won their first game, it's officially gone from a fun pastime to a overly serious analysis problem (which I already do plenty of for a living).
I don't know if they can, this episode was made back when they were on the Escapist and that's a touchy subject.They did a sort of cross over a long time ago with Yahtzee, Bob, and James giving their perspectives on some gaming topics and well Bob probably shouldn't have been there.
That's the point. Besides what the people say (which they won't know) nothing else would let you know what happens. So add to what I said originally mutes the game.
Ahahahah, I know that feel. Love when that happens. I hope ExtraCreditz is more known to the triple A industry so they take lessons from them, Teddy Loid and James are talkin' some great stuff.
Not all MMOs are like that, PSO2 is an example, sure, tier 1~6 weapons are purely there for the sake of being there and are never going to be the best in the first place, but Tier 7~9 weapons vary a lot by choice. You can either go raw statistics, reliability, lower statistics and high requirements but easy crafting and upgrading or just plain old style, your character is probably going to lose very little from it.
I can agree with that, there's alot of really intelligent things going on in that ending(which one can expect from a bioware game), but it was the Deus Ex Machisma that occurred at the end with the kid, and the characters who were just with you on earth suddenly in space, and the Normandy leaving for no particular reason, these were all fixed for the most part with the recent free extended cut, but that doesn't make it any less satisfying. Great game nonetheless though.
Saying everything you do is a choice just implies that the concept is complex by nature because you would have to go deeper to differentiate the types of choices. I would say the concept you are talking about that I would call “risk and reward” is actually talking about a variation of morals because morals imply internal rights and wrongs and or values. Specifically I would say certain games allow an amount of freedom to cater to the player’s values more than to beat the game easier. Unless it’s something the player needs in order to solve a linear solution / problem then it becomes a need than a want making a game more difficult. I would say a calculation could be use to cater to a moral just adding science to get to what a person wants if a problem being solved is open ended. I’m a rare breed I almost always if not all the time play a game in the most difficult way possible to test the game’s parameters. Side note, I can never understand why people say very linear, a game is either linear or not, there is no variation of linearity.
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I love what you do here! dont't ask us is not worth it!
I agree, Bob more suffers from the arrogance he does try to point out as a flaw, i think the one example of this that bugged me most was his example fo when "good sonic games stopped" where he said it was adventure 1, and the reason not adventure 2 like so many other fans was shadow and said shadow sucking was "that hard truth" when normally he would pin such a thing in any other series as "an opinion"
They all work in the industry already, especially James as he's a game designer and a Digipen lecturer. Industry people knows Extra Credits, but whether or not they agree with them is their decision.
Basically the answer to this problem boils down to repercussions. If repercussions and consequences for choices were handled as game changing then the choice would be real. Skyrim is one of the biggest offenders of this because it makes it seem like your choices will have long-lasting, game changing consequences, but they mostly don't. And sidequests done for factions after the faction's storyline is complete are hollow. I realize that all that programming and story writing can be a pain in the ass, but the easy way to offset that would be to offer fewer choices. If consequences have more meat to them, then fewer choices can be offered, and the player won't feel like he is missing anything from his experience. Esp. if there is the option of NG+ or if the game has replay value on a new save. And in my experience, shorter games (storylines) have more replay value.
It would be nice if characters had more unimportant choices: like whether they will have tea or coffee. It helps you setup personality in RPGs. Our unimportant choices can be central to who we are. STO kindof does this, but you are limited by availability. Would be nice if your character went to a restaurant and a bunch of beverages cost the same so when you make a choice you are basically establishing whether your character has a "coffee" or "tea" personality.
oh, this reminds me of an errant signal episode I once watched. I can't find it but he was talking about this driving-simulator game. and at the end of the game there was a choice the player had to make. whether they would get off the highway or continue down it. and he noted that the choice was symbolic of weather the characters journey is over yet. not exactly the same thing was you were talking about, but a similar concept.
euducationator Yeah, I see what you mean. Since I posted that comment, I have come across a great example of what I would like to see. In Europa Universalis 4, an event will often pop up that a comet has flown overhead, and superstitions will lead to a stability drop. You get 4 choices, but it doesn't do anything except from an RP perspective indicate what kindof a ruler you are. Your government can respond to the comet as such: 1) The end is nigh! 2) It is an omen! 3) The economy, fools! 4) I wish I lived in more enlightened times... No matter what you pick, the result is -1 stability. You feel more free to RP in what is generally considered a grand strategy game. I like that, and I hope more games do things similar to that. Or what you mentioned.
i spent too much time on several character creation screens (most notably TERA) for reasons very different from the choices it presented. hint: calculations are for the head, choices some might argue you do with the heart, and another thing happens way downstairs...
I'm not sure if "calculation" is the right term. I think "computation" might be it. The difference between a calculator and a computer is that the latter can make decisions (IF/THEN statements), while the former cannot. The figuring out if there's a definite right or wrong answer does seem to have an element of decision-making to find _which_ answer is the right one, thus I think "computation" might be the right term for what's being talked about.
whenever you talked about calculations i feel as though you neglected to consider what would happen if the players didn't do what was "logically" the best option. I know plenty of people who will avoid wear the equipment that is technically better or use a skill build that is technically better, simply because they felt that personally for their own individual goals as a player...it suited their desires even if it wasn't the "best" option
In WoW there is another choice you guys don't talk about. For example, in the same talent tree shown before, you can have 2 choices. Do I want more critical chances or more normal damages. If you choose the first option, you get a more random damage output, but if you're lucky, you'll do overall more damage than with the second choice. The same goes for survability and DPS, or Armor and Dodge, ... But really, good episode anyways... like always ;)
Actually the mushroom head in the opposite direction you came from, so by simply going forward and turning back they will go towards the known rather than the unknown.
the mario one was a calculation since there was no conflict, only a player trying to win. Instead the priorities/ ideals should conflict should. If in a game I can "choose" between build paths with a goal of success, then it's a calculation or first run. If I do it because I like something or am curious, thus curiosity/ aesthetics clash with winning, then it's a choice but if you add values to each value, priority, expected result, basically put your personality/ goals into a chart... then choices are no more. For me this seems dreadful yet appealing as technically if happiness/ morality are also valued, then I'll only have to doubt how much my priorities matter and change the values instead of actually being stuck on a choice
+Chronuz It most commonly slides to the right. In games like Super Mario Bros. 3, whether it goes left or right depends on which side of the block you hit. Hit from the left side, it goes right. Hit from the right side, it goes left.
Heroes of the Storm (Blizzard's MOBA) has a similar-ish talent system as WoW and I gotta say, going the whackyest talent builds you can come up with can be extremely fun. So while some choices may be "clearly" better than the others, you still have the choice to experiment with making different choices and seeing the outcomes.
All the WoW players who want the old talent system back should be linked to this video. It's not about "being more casual" or "letting the scrubs enjoy the game". It's about an illusion of choice of the old system vs actual choice.
Is this a choice or is this calculations? Having a reliable but small healing spell: let's say always heal 10 healthpoints. VS Having an unreliable but strong healing spell: let's say healing 50 healthpoints, but with a chance to fumble and only heal 2 health (or even doing damage). (You could make the math work out and average the outcomes to be a 10 healthpoint restoration) Can't figure out if this is a choice, or a calculation???
so hitman does a good job (4 only) because of notoriety, short term a is kill target, b is escape alive after a is completed; but notoriety adds a separate long term goal, dont get spotted or you will be more recognizable, also you lose money for killing more people than necessary for a, 5 had that last part but was more in your face about it, was really annoying
Do you know what kind of choice that took me 30 min sitting in front of the game doing nuthing but think?
When they ask me to pick a name.
+Avira Rosalita Name is rather easy, just get used to using a pool of 2 names for your characters, 1 male, 1 female (only gets a problem on your 3rd playthrough)
There, took 20 seconds, now lets get into the game!
Character creation? Shouldn't be too bad...
Sliders... Crap...
The Elder Scrolls games are off-limits for precisely this reason. If you don't actually put a knife to my throat, I'll be searching up tamrielic translators before you can say Caius Cosades.
I usually just call myself 'Angel' or use my real name, to be honest, and rarely my middle name.
it's easy for me, I only choose wakajoekoe
oh, it's an RPG? it breaks immersion?
so?
@@stuffystuffclubCaius Cosades reference makes you a morrowing fan, high five to ya there!
That's admittedly one thing I didn't like about World of Warcraft, and games like that in general. I hate when there's a "Best build" for any given class, and how people will actually hate you for going against the grain and doing something else. I like having the choice to make myself however I want to be, and the ability to make my own personal playstyle work.
Then you'll love the new talent system WoW has now.
Paul Staker Can you be a Sword-and-Board Paladin that can run end-tier dungeons as DPS and still stay competent?
Kiju Axel Everything's possible if you're a Pally.
Paul Staker Joking aside, can you actually do that?
Kiju Axel I have no idea, I play Priest :P
That's something I really liked about morrowind. Choosing a faction altered people's perception of you. Choosing to become a werewolf was a crippling decision since if anyone found out you were ostracized. There was more to choose than good or bad.
+Jack Hume That's an important aspect of choice to note, and one that a lot of "choice-based narrative" games seem to miss: consequences. If the player doesn't experience consequences for their choices, then the choices are shown to never have been choices at all. In more mechanics-oriented choices (chasing the mushroom, for example) the consequences are fairly natural, but more complex or narrative-oriented choices don't always offer such natural consequences, and developers have to pay particular attention to providing meaningful consequences for all of their choices. For as flat as the actual writing could be in Morrowind, it felt more like a holistic world than Skyrim to me and many other players. Part of that has to do with the way exploration is handled, for sure, but part of it is also the way they handled choice. In Skyrim, there are almost never consequences for any choice you make. In Morrowind, however, there are.
Agreed, and I feel like I've had no impact on skyrim because of it. It feels like the game wants you to be the hero but you're more of a camera on legs with tools to defend yourself while everything unfolds around you.
Yeah. It should be noted that there's no real conflict in Skyrim either. You can do anything and everything. Conflict and consequences are all but gone in Skyrim.
The other thing that upset me about skyrim, a technical issue to admit, but it felt unfinished. A lot of the scripted events lacked finish and seemed to still be in their storyboard phase. Most specifically when Aela becomes your forebear. Her wrist is slit and then you just hear a splat and the bowl is full of a red liquid that doesn't move and that's it. Even the final battle with alduin is very flat. You can face him at level one if you never choose to level up, and you can literally just stand there and let the NPC's kill him. Its all very unfortunate and made me rather sad.
Jack Hume most if not all of skyrims problems can be mostly modded out. there is a mod for just about every problem. Dragons too weak deadly dragons mod makes them epic or even ridiculously powerful if desired. No consequences for joining a factions enemy well there are mods that make the other side turn on you if u are a member of their enemy And so on and so forth.
What makes skyrim a good game in my opinion Is really just how much freedom the devs give to let people change it. Because of that it can go from the game a person can't stand to the game that feels just right.
I feel like this is exactly what made the Pokemon franchise successful. The simple amount of viable team builds and move sets (in single player) allow for so many choices and different approaches to how you can progress.
I find watching extra credits gives me ideas on how to be a better DM for my D&D games
As a DM you're basically the Game Dev for a tabletop so I can understand the overlap.
I watch them because I want to be a college professor someday. And I I'm looking for hints about how to make class Not suck. Make students excited to sit in a classroom environment because the discussion between students is often more interesting than the material. And as long as I can keep them discussing the material it's good for their learning.
angel whispers Thats why I watch DnD videos to make me a better game dev
"We were having a great time this few months and the show is only getting started"
ooooh boy, how much you were right :D
Still, often even this calculating has value. In the fact that it pushes you to develop more specific technical skills that can be usefull in problem solving in other areas than gaming.
Just wanted to say I'm a recent follower of your page and I just love your work! Keep it up! All the best from Brazil!
The real fun starts, when you later learn that actions you took weren't actually linear, but choices. The best example I have for this is one scene in Spec Ops: The Line, where a crowd of civilians is blocking your way and isn't going to let you pass. So I took my weapon and slaughtered them. A few month later I saw a video featuring this exact scene and one of the designers playing it: He just pulled out his pistol and shot 2 or 3 times in the air and the crowd fled the scene.
To be totally honest: I was devastated after that - I had killed civlians without need at this point and even though they were just part of a game I felt guilty.
that's why I hate that armor looks and stats are often stapled together. I can't choose the look I like, 'cause the game expects me to choose the best stats; thus, what appears to be a choice becomes a calculation
BOOO
I like Terraria's system where you have armour and social slots (Social slots are cosmetic, the armour is purely stats)
You ever heard of Transmog?
I have barely any experience with video games, but I’m actually finding these viseos really interesting and helpful as an aspiring novelist, and I think I might be able to improve my storytelling by emulating the gaming medium and blurring the line between character and audience to enhance immersion, and you’ve actually given me a much more profound respect for gaming, so thank you an awful lot
similarly, I no longer play games but I just find these entertaining. I wonder what portion actually are game makers...
I love the bit where you're talking about how objectives in games these days always line up.
My favorite space game is Freespace 2. One of the reasons I love it so much is because before each mission you go through a briefing of what to expect and what your goals are, but the missions don't always go as planned. A mission that has you escorting one ship might destroy it right off the bat, changing things around instantly.
I want more games with that level of unpredictability.
I think Sc2 LoTV really nailed it about choices,from what units to what planets to go on.
Wow, I just discovered these guys, and they're brilliant.
"Do I want enemies to explode into gooier chunks or do I want to carry moar schtuff? Laughed much harder than I should have xD
This is brilliant! It really makes me appreciate certain games more, if even for the most subtle and simple reasons.
5:19 "you hamstring your ability" haha, I see what you did there.
The reason the mushroom moves in Super Mario Bros., is probably just because they played the game with the mushroom not moving at first and thought it was boring so they made it move. They probably didn't think about all of this. ( : One reason I'm saying this is because in SMB3, the mushroom will move in different directions depending on how you hit the block, giving the player some control on its movement. Not necessarily moving toward the unknown (right).
Bottomline: Playtesting = Very important
they probably thought about it a little bit
Alienrun I agree, it might also be because they always add something different to each mario game so its not exactly the same as the last.
***** Really? I didn't think it was annoying. In fact I thought it was cool once I knew how to control it. ^_^
At 2:30, I just screamed "Oh my god!"
I was playing RE5 just minutes ago, and it got me thinking that the item management screen in between chapters might fit as a choice moment in the first playthrough by having the player chose between what weapons and items the player will take into the next unknown mission.
There is also the issue of overchoice. Overwhelming the player with so many choices when they just want to play the game. Which explains why perks are unlocked slowly in Call of Duty games.
Sooo it's 2020 and we have iterated through a couple of "talent tree" options in WoW and none was as fun as the original one. While there were certain best builds in terms of damage output, there were enough fun builds that came really close. There were also builds to horse around (mage POM instant pyroblast for example) that were not great for raids. Which, in your words, would also be a choice between two things the player wants and has to decide for one.
3:40
Cave Story's Hell stage.
The safest path is the slowest path. Death comes easy. Unless you are amazing, or you take it slow, you WILL die. And then the game asks you to do it 4 times faster than seems reasonably possible.
There's also those skills/items/characters on some games that are kinda the best thing you should use JUST if you can handle it. Some examples are bad made, complicated character on fighting games that have waaay more potential than other limited-characters when you know how to use it. Or a skill that ends up doing more damage than every other skill when used correctly.
There are plenty of choices, but when you get experience with the mechanics, all choices are thrown into the garbage because now there's no point in using the complicated item which, because you now know how to use it correctly, it's the best item.
That is what Bioware and Obsidian does well, They give you choices that impact the outcome of the whole gameplay, which feels rewarding and complex each time you play it. :3
+LordBloodySoul The choices don't really change the gameplay (or the central mechanics for that matter) at all. They only change the narrative and some minor gameplay elements, and even then the narrative branches only for a short time usually.
*****
Still it is feeling like the story is far greater that way. The Witcher series is one that actually can end in over 60 different ending scenarios, which is a lot considering that it only branches over 3 games.
LordBloodySoul Yeah, my point was just that it technically doesn't change anything. But the way it feels is obviously what really counts imo.
Hearing this video gave me some clarity on an issue I often run into in some of my hobbies: Competitive games with highly variable customization based off of differing set values will always have a Metagame present that conditions Calculation into the game. Generally for me to enjoy these games I've had to restrict myself into formats where diversity is an at least enjoyable option versus what would otherwise be a sea of mechanically superior, homogenized builds a la Commander for MTG or UnderUsed for Pokemon. I'm still going to play these games despite the issues with Calculation they provide (especially since a bad habit of mine is to crank Calculative thought into how I play games regardless of whether or not it detracts from my actual ability to have fun), but having it phrased in a way like this gives me solid food for thought on the matter
Spelunky is amazing at achieving this mario type of choice. The game is incredibly difficult, but there are helpful items you can buy that make the game way easier.
To buy those items you have to collect gold, seems simple enough, BUT searching for more gold increases the risk of taking a hit. You can decide to kill off the shopkeeper and take all his things for free, but THEN he will be waiting for you at the end of every next level, holding a shotgun.
BUT ALSO you have a limited number of hit points, and the only way to replenish them is to find a damsel and bring her to the end of the level.
BUT ALSO each level has a timer and when it runs off - The Ghost comes in, and if it touches you it's instakill.
So you always have to balance how much you want to risk for the damsel, the gold and the items while the clock is ticking.
Oh, and did I mention the game has permadeath? Which makes all your desisions REALLY matter, since you will start all over?
Spelunky is awesome.
Obviously, when you get down to it, any decision that effects the mechanics of a game has a calculable solution to achieve the desired result the most effectively. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as the comperable decisions have an insignificant disadvantage to the calculable ones (Fighter and Rogue do the same damage with a different coat of paint), or, perhaps the better scenario, the desired result changes with the situation, forcing a recalculation and different approach (different enemies have different weaknesses magic/melee/etc.).
First time playing LISA has very tough choices. You walk into a cave, BAM! It's either your second party member's life (which removes their skills and abilities from the game permanently) or your arm (reducing damage output, defense, health, and increasing withdrawal symptoms for the main character permanently). It's much easier the second time, because then you can tell which cave to be careful of, and then change put your party member for a useless one.
Lisa is at least the best RPG ever made c:
But no really making the selfish choices and facing off with Terry the Terrible was heart breaking..
Wow that is a heck of a coincidence, back in my grade 10 art class we had to find a photo of a simple landscape and paint it...now I'm watching this video and what pops up at 3:40 ...the exact photo I painted in that class, I still have the painting too, weird.
"If you find yourself just mindlessly mashing buttons to make the game progress, we're not doing our job." - Or the player is just ignoring the work you did do.
Comfort Misha? That is an incomplete information scenario that I screwed up my first time.
Alex Havener As a fellow Katawa Shoujo player, I know how it feels. I was trying to be the nice guy and comfort her but ended up fucking it up in the scenes that followed.
Fuyu_Seishin12 "She's a friend, of course I'll comfort her. Wait a second. What are you doing? That's not what comfort means. THAT'S NOT WHAT COMFORT MEANS!"
Alex Havener Well I keep on forgetting how one thing could lead to another when it's a guy and a girl in a situation like that. The game makes you think hard about your decisions. The devs on that VN are geniuses on that.
Have you checked out full hearts a group of fans decided to make a game inspired by it as 4leaf studios wouldn't. PS nearly choose to comfort Misha too. XD
Heavy Rain. Choice at every turn, no clear outcome, definitive punishment for failure--and one of the best games I've ever played.
Iove the music at the end of these episodes.
I think WoW is really instructive for choice, if you compare how it does it now with how it did it when this video was published or even before.
The old MMO hardcore mindset was that choices were challenges to be overcome. Make the wrong choices, and your character would be 'gimped' - the ultimate failure state of the game, or at least a position that was hard to come back from. But as WoW has tended towards greater accessibility, it has also tended towards balancing those choices so there are not 'right' or 'wrong' choices, which has in turn made the choices more interesting in themselves (at the expense of the meta-game of not gimping your toon).
You will choose between mediocre but guaranteed boosts, more powerful but chance-driven boosts, and situational abilities. You will also be called on to make choices that suit your playstyle - some talents are clearly more for the solo player, while some are only of any use in raids.
This makes me think of Bravely Default's job system. Each time I obtained an asterisk from a boss and gained a new job, I would immediately want to implement the abilities from that job into my team. However when I would do this, it would often compromise my build in one way or another, causing me to think of a new build and a new strategy. Either that, or I simply couldn't find a place for that job in any build I could make at the time, and the job would go ignored.
What are you’re thoughts on modern deliberate choice games? Say, Life is Strange or Detroit become human?
When it comes to choice in games, Yahtzee's version of self contained narrative is an interesting route. A game that starts off with more and more branching paths that leads to a wide array of scenarios and possibilities, while it also ties up loose ends and ultimately leads to the same conclusion in the end. The Walking Dead is a prime example. Multiple paths and different decisions to make that all comes to a cohesive whole.
doctors recommended you make 8 choices a day.
Four years late, but:
Stanley! Why didn't you tell me you were a real Person?!
"Games are a series of interesting decisions."
Allthough und not complete, I like that definition.
Thank you! This video very clearly demonstrates a highly appealing factor of the value of character creation on my website. I will use this.
You sounded like Mordin Solus when explaining logical calculations
Seeing these during college lectures and looking at the videos now makes me wonder what the hell happened after Max left
I'm sure you'll be getting plenty of hits from the WoW community about this as the "Talent Points = Choices!" crowd gathers in the wake of the talent trees becoming 6 3-point CHOICES to be made and changed as needed. This explains the whole choice issue quite well.
Bob is best when he leaves his personal preferences at the door, and analyzes in combination with all his background/trivia knowledge... he is hit and miss in that regard, but when he hits, he hits it good ;D
I think he's gotten better at it, at least with "At the Movies" and "The Big Picture", I don't watch gameoverthinker so I can't say
4:30 I might add that as a roleplayer This was a Major pain in the but to get around.
my Hunter was a Marksmen and the way I made her(how my tree looked) was well not close to a decent or viable build.
I recall stories from early wow day(didn´t have internet or a compute to run it so I missed it).
About paladin Plate wielding warriors running around whit cloth becos that was a odd but still viable choice to make.
Nowdays (cata-wrath not sure about burning crusade) there is even less of a choice it more or less have become are you a DPS, tank or healer thous 3 talents specs are what we can offer there is no other option.
"Intelligent guy that bob" this is the first thing i have ever heard you say that i disagree with.
+geasslordzero I wonder if they'd still make that recommendation 4 years on with post-meltdown Bob?
+Silvershock Nicktail wait what?
Silvershock Nicktail what kind of meltdown did he have?
+geasslordzero there was no meltdown, and the EC crew still like him
AndroidPhantom just because they like him doesn't mean he is intelligent.
Bob is INCREDIBLY hit and miss.
Sometimes he makes sense, sometimes... well sometimes...
I love your show, guys! Two thumbs up! :-)
The game with the hardest decision that I've ever played? Oneshot. That was brutal.
Maaan, this brings back memories, remember the days when Moviebob didn't completely jump the shark on the Game Overthinker? Those were the days...
not only the mushroom in SMB is choice and conflict
ALMOST EVERY (which means approaches to infinity) obstacle in this game uses it
with nice use of enemies, powerups and platforms
Thanks, I didn't even realize this was happening.
I can agree. Best example of that for me was in his review of Avatar where he said something like "It's possible that they didn't write a deep complex story so as not to distract from all this immersion."
I'm still not sure what he meant. Surely a detailed, intricate story HELPS immersion as long as it's clearly conveyed, like with LotR or Bioshock. But whether his points are right or wrong, they are quite interesting. :P
Because of you guys, I learned about Bob and his Game Overthinking, and then I learned that he is weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeird, but in a good way, kinda like a Proto Extra Creditz, seriously why don't you get him aboard an episode, that would be an awesome crossover
I noticed this episode talked more about what isnt choice than about what is choice. Maybe a few more examples on what a good choice is would help quite a bit to further the episode as there are diferent ways to present choices (through gameplay, story, menus, etc.)
Heartily agree. And seeing that the last choice of the game was built in a way that resembles the colors of the moral wheel, I highly suspect that the choice you've made might play a crucial role in the next post-Shephard title, as the Bioware team is asking players to keep their saves. Mere speculation on my part, however. :)
It does, but largely, it matters little, I can name an example, high-level players have to choose between the Lambda Raizenolk, the best partizan, statistically speaking, the Lambda Patty Lumeria, which is for most the coolest-looking, but the most reliable considering it can be used between all classes, and the red partizan, which is the weakest of the trio but offers easy upgrades. I chose the Lumeria, a friend chose the red partizan, nobody thought less of us for it.
that is actually true, mostly what i had meant are the side-quests, since depending on which ones you do, when you return later (ie:the next day) things will actually be affected. although to be fair, when i wrote that i had only just got the game, and was all blinded by exitment.
1:36 makes my laugh so hard every time i hear it, i have to watch that same 1 seconds over and over again..
Buuurning.
That outro song is sick!
***** Thanks!
This calculation is precisely what drove me out of playing Warhammer 40k. I ran certain units because they were fun or interesting and got openly scoffed because the "mathhammer" crowd has decreed once and for all that no logical gamer would use something that doesn't milk maximum efficiency from the point limit.
Beating those people was a special joy, but as the game stores I went to got more and more competitive and less and less fun, I stopped playing altogether. Yeah, once someone says that they had to play for months before they won their first game, it's officially gone from a fun pastime to a overly serious analysis problem (which I already do plenty of for a living).
I don't know if they can, this episode was made back when they were on the Escapist and that's a touchy subject.They did a sort of cross over a long time ago with Yahtzee, Bob, and James giving their perspectives on some gaming topics and well Bob probably shouldn't have been there.
That's the point. Besides what the people say (which they won't know) nothing else would let you know what happens. So add to what I said originally mutes the game.
Ahahahah, I know that feel.
Love when that happens. I hope ExtraCreditz is more known to the triple A industry so they take lessons from them, Teddy Loid and James are talkin' some great stuff.
Not all MMOs are like that, PSO2 is an example, sure, tier 1~6 weapons are purely there for the sake of being there and are never going to be the best in the first place, but Tier 7~9 weapons vary a lot by choice. You can either go raw statistics, reliability, lower statistics and high requirements but easy crafting and upgrading or just plain old style, your character is probably going to lose very little from it.
I can agree with that, there's alot of really intelligent things going on in that ending(which one can expect from a bioware game), but it was the Deus Ex Machisma that occurred at the end with the kid, and the characters who were just with you on earth suddenly in space, and the Normandy leaving for no particular reason, these were all fixed for the most part with the recent free extended cut, but that doesn't make it any less satisfying. Great game nonetheless though.
Saying everything you do is a choice just implies that the concept is complex by nature because you would have to go deeper to differentiate the types of choices. I would say the concept you are talking about that I would call “risk and reward” is actually talking about a variation of morals because morals imply internal rights and wrongs and or values. Specifically I would say certain games allow an amount of freedom to cater to the player’s values more than to beat the game easier. Unless it’s something the player needs in order to solve a linear solution / problem then it becomes a need than a want making a game more difficult. I would say a calculation could be use to cater to a moral just adding science to get to what a person wants if a problem being solved is open ended. I’m a rare breed I almost always if not all the time play a game in the most difficult way possible to test the game’s parameters.
Side note, I can never understand why people say very linear, a game is either linear or not, there is no variation of linearity.
I love what you do here! dont't ask us is not worth it!
I agree, Bob more suffers from the arrogance he does try to point out as a flaw, i think the one example of this that bugged me most was his example fo when "good sonic games stopped" where he said it was adventure 1, and the reason not adventure 2 like so many other fans was shadow and said shadow sucking was "that hard truth" when normally he would pin such a thing in any other series as "an opinion"
They all work in the industry already, especially James as he's a game designer and a Digipen lecturer.
Industry people knows Extra Credits, but whether or not they agree with them is their decision.
Nice outro music for this EP
Basically the answer to this problem boils down to repercussions. If repercussions and consequences for choices were handled as game changing then the choice would be real. Skyrim is one of the biggest offenders of this because it makes it seem like your choices will have long-lasting, game changing consequences, but they mostly don't. And sidequests done for factions after the faction's storyline is complete are hollow. I realize that all that programming and story writing can be a pain in the ass, but the easy way to offset that would be to offer fewer choices.
If consequences have more meat to them, then fewer choices can be offered, and the player won't feel like he is missing anything from his experience. Esp. if there is the option of NG+ or if the game has replay value on a new save. And in my experience, shorter games (storylines) have more replay value.
I was just commenting a couple videos back about how this show reminds me of the Game Overthinker.
It would be nice if characters had more unimportant choices: like whether they will have tea or coffee. It helps you setup personality in RPGs. Our unimportant choices can be central to who we are. STO kindof does this, but you are limited by availability. Would be nice if your character went to a restaurant and a bunch of beverages cost the same so when you make a choice you are basically establishing whether your character has a "coffee" or "tea" personality.
oh, this reminds me of an errant signal episode I once watched. I can't find it but he was talking about this driving-simulator game. and at the end of the game there was a choice the player had to make. whether they would get off the highway or continue down it. and he noted that the choice was symbolic of weather the characters journey is over yet. not exactly the same thing was you were talking about, but a similar concept.
euducationator Yeah, I see what you mean.
Since I posted that comment, I have come across a great example of what I would like to see. In Europa Universalis 4, an event will often pop up that a comet has flown overhead, and superstitions will lead to a stability drop. You get 4 choices, but it doesn't do anything except from an RP perspective indicate what kindof a ruler you are. Your government can respond to the comet as such:
1) The end is nigh!
2) It is an omen!
3) The economy, fools!
4) I wish I lived in more enlightened times...
No matter what you pick, the result is -1 stability. You feel more free to RP in what is generally considered a grand strategy game. I like that, and I hope more games do things similar to that. Or what you mentioned.
euducationator I can't find it.
i spent too much time on several character creation screens (most notably TERA) for reasons very different from the choices it presented. hint: calculations are for the head, choices some might argue you do with the heart, and another thing happens way downstairs...
Coming back to these videos over a decade later because of how irreplaceable they are to reference. Miss you EC classic
Oh wow you have definitely grown over the past 12 years
They have a separate video for that. It's on Daniel Floyd's channel; look up "Video Games and Moral Choices". :)
Wait, did you really just put "intelligent" in the same sentence as "moviebob"?
Oh Teehee, you guys always make me crack up
"Chase the mushroom" sounds like a euphemism
I spat my coffee upon seeing the screen of Emperor of the Fading Suns!
I really like the mop talent Tree now :)
I'm not sure if "calculation" is the right term. I think "computation" might be it.
The difference between a calculator and a computer is that the latter can make decisions (IF/THEN statements), while the former cannot.
The figuring out if there's a definite right or wrong answer does seem to have an element of decision-making to find _which_ answer is the right one, thus I think "computation" might be the right term for what's being talked about.
love your stuff
whenever you talked about calculations i feel as though you neglected to consider what would happen if the players didn't do what was "logically" the best option. I know plenty of people who will avoid wear the equipment that is technically better or use a skill build that is technically better, simply because they felt that personally for their own individual goals as a player...it suited their desires even if it wasn't the "best" option
at least he uses logic and explains his position.
"Without conflict, there is no choice- only decisions."
In WoW there is another choice you guys don't talk about. For example, in the same talent tree shown before, you can have 2 choices. Do I want more critical chances or more normal damages.
If you choose the first option, you get a more random damage output, but if you're lucky, you'll do overall more damage than with the second choice.
The same goes for survability and DPS, or Armor and Dodge, ...
But really, good episode anyways... like always ;)
5:37 my experience of final fantasy (i've only played some of the newer ones)
making a character in a game with a deep customization option would take me hours, too many things to choose !
Actually the mushroom head in the opposite direction you came from, so by simply going forward and turning back they will go towards the known rather than the unknown.
the mario one was a calculation since there was no conflict, only a player trying to win. Instead the priorities/ ideals should conflict should. If in a game I can "choose" between build paths with a goal of success, then it's a calculation or first run. If I do it because I like something or am curious, thus curiosity/ aesthetics clash with winning, then it's a choice
but if you add values to each value, priority, expected result, basically put your personality/ goals into a chart... then choices are no more. For me this seems dreadful yet appealing as technically if happiness/ morality are also valued, then I'll only have to doubt how much my priorities matter and change the values instead of actually being stuck on a choice
You know what game franchise does Choice really well? The Legend of Zelda.
actually... the mushroom goes the opposite direction of where mario is when it sprouts out of the box, not always to the right.
+Chronuz It most commonly slides to the right. In games like Super Mario Bros. 3, whether it goes left or right depends on which side of the block you hit. Hit from the left side, it goes right. Hit from the right side, it goes left.
Heroes of the Storm (Blizzard's MOBA) has a similar-ish talent system as WoW and I gotta say, going the whackyest talent builds you can come up with can be extremely fun. So while some choices may be "clearly" better than the others, you still have the choice to experiment with making different choices and seeing the outcomes.
The real choice of WOW builds seems to be (from the perspective of someone who doesn't play WOW) is whether you want healing or dps.
RIP Leonard Nemoy.
All the WoW players who want the old talent system back should be linked to this video. It's not about "being more casual" or "letting the scrubs enjoy the game". It's about an illusion of choice of the old system vs actual choice.
Is this a choice or is this calculations?
Having a reliable but small healing spell: let's say always heal 10 healthpoints.
VS
Having an unreliable but strong healing spell: let's say healing 50 healthpoints, but with a chance to fumble and only heal 2 health (or even doing damage). (You could make the math work out and average the outcomes to be a 10 healthpoint restoration)
Can't figure out if this is a choice, or a calculation???
so hitman does a good job (4 only) because of notoriety, short term a is kill target, b is escape alive after a is completed; but notoriety adds a separate long term goal, dont get spotted or you will be more recognizable, also you lose money for killing more people than necessary for a, 5 had that last part but was more in your face about it, was really annoying