Non-Combat Gaming - How to Make Social Mechanics Fun - Extra Credits
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2024
- What kind of games could we experience if not everything was based on combat and fast-paced action mechanics? What if games could replicate the simple pleasures of more down-to-earth experiences like having dinner with a friend?
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(Original air date: January 12, 2011)
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Bonus Fact: After this video was released, the number of people who saw this and went to Echo Bazaar/Fallen London, it crashed. Got me to play it too, and gave them enough money for a large update, making it bigger and better. You can attribute its massive growth suddenly to this video.
And that eventually funded Sunless Seas, and Sunless Skies
Come oooooon one more like
Disco Elysium is by far the prime example of a game where the social mechanics are the core of the fun for it. Games have come a long way technically and mechanically and its quite amazing to have a gem of a game like that.
OBJECTION!
Aren't you basically describing Ace Attorney?
+TopHatLucario That actually was one thign that popped into my read while watching this too.
+Gritty Sugar I really love both of those games!!! I also agree with you on that.
I think he was sayng that undertale will appear
And undertale
Anomonous Anomonous Undertale has combat.
Four words
Phoenix Wright ace attorney
I wondered where the Attorney games would fit.... Especially if anyone's played the second Miles Edgeworth game, where there is VERBAL and MENTAL CHESS as a system of gaining info...
That series is the first thing that came to mind when he said games could make talking similar to combat. Instead of fighting enemies with a weapon, you fight criminals with logic and contradictions.
Arctic i was about to say the same exact thing holy shit
You brought tears to my eyes by typing those four magic words...
:_:
Kudos to you friend.....
:)
Don't forget its counterpart, Professor Layton!
"You'd never get a game about talking to be as fun as a game about fighting"
I only have one thing to say to that:
OBJECTION!
The proportion of non-combat games has massively increased ever since this video was released. The Walking Dead, Life Is Strange, Captain Toad, Journey, Everybody's Gone To The Rapture, Brothers: A Tale Of Two Sons, The Witness etc. Sure, they don't all revolve around conversations, but I definitely think were starting to see more of a push away from action games now.
+DiscoClam How about: Antichamber, Gunpoint, Fez, A Story About My Uncle, Portal, This War of Mine, Gods Will Be Watching, Reus, The Walking Dead, and Kingdom?
the one that first came to my mind was oxenfree
Tetris, Pong, Simon, Solitaire...
Myst too but Myst faded into obscurity due to klunky and difficult mechanics and a failure to deliver on a promised multiplayer mode. Portal proved that puzzle games can compete with fps in terms of accessible gameplay and I think that made a big difference.
The games you mention are all part of the "abstract" category.
Tom Francis (creator of Gunpoint), when he was still a game journalist, talked about how role-playing games like Skyrim should really make combat difficult and unpredictable and scary. Leaving the major cities at all should be an ordeal. Not only would this make it more a role-playing game (because people would take up more everyday actions like commerce and conversation), but it would drive people more towards non-combat ways of discovering the world (being an explorer or merchant or alchemist).
I did a non-combat (well, it was legendary difficulty at least, which greatly dissuaded me from combat), alchemist character on Skyrim one time and it was good fun. I guess what I'm saying is that the systems are already there in some games, they've just made combat the easiest, most entertaining way to progress.
This is a great point. When combat is so much easier, what is the point of the non-combat options?
I love going back and rewatching old extra credits when years later and wondering if certain developers are fans, because since this video came out they're have been quite a few games doing just what they said, undertale jumps to mind right away
4:34 "Conversation isn't entirely unlike chess"
5:19 "Putting time pressure on dialogue choices"
Miles Edgeworth: Investigations 2, anyone?
I was thinking 100% of the same thing. Logic chess is awesome!
+mastersuperfan Frickin, YES! I played through the translated ROM and I frickin' LOVED it!
+mastersuperfan Or Last Word
+mastersuperfan Combat styled dialogue, now that's something unique.
+Professor Syndicate (Frank Lai) Or Dialogue styled combat (monkey island) xD
In the sims you can invite people to dinner
real people?
sims online
Then drink six espressos and pee on the floor in front of them, asserting dominance. I love the sims.
I mean, technically you're not wrong.
VulpineShine Lmao
This idea would pair really well with a conversation I had with a friend about how death doesn't mean anything in a game, in Bioshiock infinite, you kill a character in a cutscene (no spoilers) and your companion totally freaks out. It broke me from the experience cuz my companion had seen me (and was helping me) slighter hundreds of men in the game before that. If we made dialogue a cool and important mechanic, maybe we could save death and killing for extreme cases, and it can carry the emotional weight it has in reality.
Just imagine having a confrontation, it turns ugly,and you kill the adversary, then the next five minutes you have to convince your friend it was the right thing to do, (or necessary, or that we didn't have a choice) or your friend hates you and leaves forever
Adding persuasion mechanics would make new Assassin's Creed games WAY more original and potentially interesting.
Internet simulator?
Wish granted.
Woah they did it
I liked New Vegas more than Fallout 3. I felt invested in FNV's story more than FO3
+Business Burd I don't get why they slagged it off. Never before has a world felt more alive than in NV.
It would be interesting to have an empire building game that centers around political maneuvering, economics, and with more realistic war that you cannot control and results far more in overall destruction of both sides with no real benefit to anyone, thus making it something to avoid overall (but also to instigate between your opponents...).
+Jens Boettiger Ever heard of Civ 5 with all the DLC?
+Blackest Night Batman That's not true. The mechanics are too basic and in the end most things are settled by war.
Raging karma The mechanics are "simple" if you don't understand them and aren't doing everything the game has to offer, not to mention you must really suck at the game if everything ends in war for you. War doesn't benefit anybody in civ 5, it just ceases production of everything but troops and ultimately puts you back a long time in the long run.
***** I have had nothing but going forward by war. Extra cities, more population, Greater power, increased science, And the best part... fear in every other civilization. Through war you can gain every type of victory due to gain in every stat like culture, science, tourism, and faith. The only thing decreasing is happiness while it affects population growth and production a bit. It can simply be raised by buying a happiness building or actually building wonders that provide happiness. Also I don't suck I can consistently playing well on the 6th difficulty. Plus it is simple. Compare it to europa IV where there are a lot more mechanics involved and where diplomacy is actually useful for the most part. In Civ V they are important just not as much with very little interaction.
+Jens Boettiger There's a rts game in development called Offworld Trading Co. In the game, you do just that; expand a company until it's a perfect monopoly. The health of the company is equal to shares, when you own all the shares, you own the company. What's even more interesting is that this game is based in a universe where humanity is exploring space with much more ease and I know for sure that one planet available is Mars. Now, one should note that there's also things you can do like corporate espionage and sabotage.
I was going to ask someone like: "Did anyone else immediately think of Undertale?"
Then I read the other comments...
that game came out three years after this video
The word combat suggestion reminded me of Monkey Island where you had to insult sword fight and learned counter moves by taking other people's lines and using them on different pirates. That was the best. (Still waiting for that Curse of Monkey Island re-release).
"Super-effectiving" is my new favorite word.
New Vegas not living up to fallout 3?
+Cleath78 Yeah I know right? I thought New Vegas was better, personally
+Cleath78 The storyline in 3 was much more emotionally fulfilling (especially after Broken Steel came out), but they had refined the game engine much more for New Vegas. 'Tis a give and take.
+Cleath78 Fallout New Vegas was incredibly buggy when it first came out
+Adam Reid aren't all Bethesda games buggy though?
+shadow raptor Which makes you wonder how bad New vegas v1.0 must have been to stand out.
The Ace Attorney series fits this style well, and those games are amazing.
It's a simulation.
Visual novel are non combats e.g Ace Attorney
but visual novel are usually mixed with RPG games. the most engaging Visual novels are the interactive ones which lets you decide how the story progress.
4:44 Oh, sir! is an excellent example of this. Its a very silly game where you insult people with everything from monty python refrences to not hearing the "Call of Cthulhu"
Stanley Parable kept popping into my head
Killing a baby, torturing a innocent civilian a.k.a. Stanley, simulating a parody.
Stanley Parable is more like an amusement park, looking around and choosing which rides to go on rather than making meaningful decisions. It is designed so that you repeatedly go through it discovering various paths. Definitely in the right direction though.
DarkChaosGames I know. I finished it in every way... Was really fun and it's one of my favorite games. ^^
Its also not a game.
Jade Merrydown "a game played by electronically manipulating images produced by a computer program on a television screen or other display screen". Just because a game doesn't fit the standards of a conventional video game doesn't automatically make it invalid as a game. Extra credits and Jim sterling have touched on this topic in much more detail. If you're interested I suggest u check them out. :D
Little big planet, kerbal (though I guess scientific and accidental genocide may be counted as violence), some city builders, animal crossing... that's it.
same, the only "combat" game I have are MMO's and a part of the Elder Scrolls line
FrostByteXII Ace attorney and Professor Layton. One is a game literally about talking
Harvest Moon: The Lost Valley, Harvest Moon: Skytree Village, Harvest Moon: Seeds of Memories, Animal Crossing New Leaf, Animal Crossing: Happy Home Designer, Animal Crossing: Amiibo Festival.
Stardew Valley and Rune Factory 4 have violence as the core gameplay.
Also, I can argue that Pokemon Sun and Moon have social elements secondary to its gameplay such as caring for Pokemon after battles and greeting people with "Alola!" even though violence is its core game mechanic.
Ksp is the best
@@eannamcnamara9338 go Jebediah!
Reminds me of the murder mystery part in Skyrim. Except for a very few instances the combat in that game got pretty boring, but when I was hunting for clues, questioning witnesses and suspects and then hiding in a shadow at night on a stake out waiting for the killer I really got into the game. It was interesting and engaging again for that part. Much more than just slapping Alduin around.
Pheonix Wright perhaps?
Yes yes YES!
+r0mit *cough* phoenix*
i completely agree, though
Or dangan ronpa
This video came out (onto TH-cam) on April 2nd, 2012.
Telltale's _The Walking Dead:Season One_ came out April 24th, 2012.
So, in that *same* month, this video's question of "Can non-combat games be fun?" was answered with a resounding YES, IT CAN. Telltale proved that and, now, you have games like _Life Is Strange_ which sorta "expands" on Telltale's formula.
I think the older the games industry gets, the more "variety" we're gonna see. That's just how things work; you flood the market with something (combat games) and a demand for an "opposite" product will emerge.
Paradox Acres Telltales Walking Dead games did have combat though. Near the last few episodes there was a first person mode that allowed you to shoot zombies. Also don't forget quick time events when fighting zombies.
Brandon Miller Those were _barely_ combat.
I'd argue they were merely "dangerous situations" the devs threw in to break the monotony of the game, not an actual highlight of the game.
Paradox Acres still involved combat.
Brandon Miller Yes, but it was *buried* under _hours_ of NON-combat.
Therefore, anyone who was playing, played the game because they were hooked on the non-combat elements (dialogue, characters, setting, atmosphere, etc).
Paradox Acres I realize this you are right in that aspect. But even then it still has combat. Its not a full non combat game that extra credit is talking about.
"a sequel that can't live up to it's predecessor" *shows New Vegas, easily the best 3d fallout game*
for guys that tend to know about game design incredibly well, you'd think they'd have a good taste in games.
Bro its a fuckin. Buggy mess
They Proably didnt mod the game to get rid of the bugs
Like no bugs game is amazing
With bugs. Its good but like they are pretty bad
I like games with a speech/persuasion skill built into them. I've only touched a few games like this, like Assassin's Creed and the Elder Scrolls 4 & 5. As much as I enjoy sneaking around and stabbing people or charging in guns(or swords) blazing, destroying everything in my path, there's a certain satisfaction that comes from just talking, whether it be persuading someone not to kill you, seeing which choice of words or actions trigger which outcome(like Mass Effect), and everything in between.
Don't forget Fallout, in fact New Vegas is loaded with that.
So... role-playing games. Pen and paper with real people.
And role-playing forums.
Exactely my thought!
TTRPG LETS GOO
I'm sooo down for an argument based game
a cool game idea: im autistic,and reading signs is one of my favorite things about walking around. its basically my special interest, actually. use parkour to read every sign and access every weirdly-placed vending machine in the city. i would hella play that
I imagine you love driving around in gta then. The billboards and store signs in that game never cease to amaze me with their ridiculous attention to detail. But talking about your game idea, I like the notion that just seeing the sights around you could be a game in and of itself. This could be signs, nature, buildings, people, or anything interesting really. That could end up in a huge burden on the visual designers of the game, and you might need to get clever to "gameify" the seeing of things. I think the biggest complaint could be in regards to the need for a lack of combat. GTA allows you to do what we're describing but also has combat and is probably better off for it. I guess that's the real challenge here: to make a game that relies on and benefits from the mechanic of just looking around and seeing the sights. Very interesting
well the whole landscape could also be surreal/cartoony, or just use photos of stuff as textures also. like what they did in pikmin4. and the combat element.. maybe you REALLY want to look at the signs in a private property. you have to fight the guards so you can go read it! one vending machine with a sign on the side of it, is in a bad part of town where criminals hang around. you will have to use self-defense strategies to get to the sign on the machine. also maybe pick up cool key chains from the gift shop!
I'm reminded of The Simpsons' "Ride a Bike With Your Mother"
"Enjoy the scenery! ENJOY! ENJOY!"
I looked. Here are the non-Combat games in my steam library:
Portal & Portal 2
Rocket League (although you can blow each other up...)
Kerbal Space Program
Papers, Please (although you do shoot people eventually)
Another Perspective
Spooky's Jump Scare Mansion
Amnesia: The Dark Descent (Does this count?)
Brandon Fedie ace attorney? All puzzle games especially profssor layton. (That one has talking)
Yvelkrai
These are just games in my Steam library. I've borrowed Ace Attorney DS games from my friends, but they're not in my steam.
*****
Fair. I didn't actually get that far in Spooky's.
Portal 2 you have to destroy sentient turrets by directing a laser at them as part of a puzzle...
Oxenfree is probably most engaging game I’ve played. You play as a teenage girl named Alex who opened a rift with her radio while at an overnight party on an old military island, releasing ghosts and transporting everyone to different parts of the island. It has so much depth, and the radio mechanic to interact with the supernatural is so interesting. It has no combat, and it’s the most invested I’ve ever been in a game
It’s a walking and talking game that has no cut scenes, and it’s a thriller without combat
Thrilling without combat is quite an achievement. I've always thought that basic structure is probably more important to a mechanic being 'fun' than context. If more developers would experiment with making noncombat not only bearable or enjoyable but every bit as complex and satisfying as the best combat systems then we would really have something to work with.
Sounds like why Undertale was successful.
True. It's kind of a hybrid. It's a framework based on turn-based RPG combat but you are given non-combat options.
I thought Undertale was a funny example in this case because you are taken out to dinner by characters on multiple occasions.
loppol11 Chara: What are you talking about? =)
Two Words: Ace Attorney
yeah, I was thinking about phoenix wright too when watching this XD
Four more words: Visual novels in general.
***** There's a sequel too, I'm told, that's supposed to be as good, if not better than, the original.
Also: Harvest moon
MrLeoGP *cough* animal crosing*cough*
Amazing how a video posted 8 years ago is still so relevant and interesting. Good job guys. And thank you.
4:39 oh sir...
the game
about arguments
The Epic Gamer ACE ATTORNEY
Yes, that one!
I freaking love that game
ace attorney is simply amazing
Exactly what I was thinking, the insult simulator.
"Does this dead body belong to you?"
"No, I just borrowed it to put my tea on."
The best game I've played in the last year that didn't have any combat; Life is Strange. If you haven't played it, go play it now.
I loved telltale's TWD it had some combat but honestly it was the worst part of the game
watching the old episodes makes me really happy cause a lot of stuff they talk about aint an issue anymore. games are actually developing as a medium thats great
See, this is exactly why Harvest Moon has been around for 15+ years.
I love killing people, but sometimes...you just want to farm.... and have a baby.
Yes, I cracked myself up after reading this.
so basically a visual novel with more mechanics?
The problem with visual novels is the lack of exploration. I want to walk the streets, stroll through stores, and run through my house. Visual novels have static backgrounds. Although, nearly all games do not provide what I want exactly. Why no fantasy modern japan city to go shopping? Why all medieval or zombie or war? Why cant I just get a cup of coffee and take the train?
Sounds like a visual novel with extra steps.
The exception to the fighting rule on my game shelf was the wii brand games, wii fit, wii sports, wii sports resort etc. This video makes lots of sense though! Thanks!
This video introduced me to echo bazaar (now renamed Fallen London), and I love it!
this is something point and click games do a lot tho, and those are mostly about story telling and puzzle solving.
ace attorney, danganronpa, prof layton, etc.
“Talking can’t be fun.”
-Danganronpa Series
-Ace Attourney Series
-Just Damn online forums
Puzzle games like Porta land Antichamber are good examples of a direction we could go in the gaming world,
I'm surprised you guys didn't like Fallout New Vegas more than Fallout 3
I've heard people go both ways, but I assumed they would have liked New Vegas' faction system
Yeah I loved it so much.
Fallout 3 had a more compelling story. In FNV, you just wake up, and more or less decide who you want to win. Then they do. You don't necessarily have any more interest in the winner of this war than an American voter does in the election.
Whereas in Fallout 3, your father leaves the only home you've ever known and you go on an epic quest to find him.
I admit the gameplay in FNV was preferable but I don't think that's the point.
I disagree, Fallout has always been at it's best when you go off the beaten track and do your own thing. And New Vegas does this better than..... well just about anything.
In New Vegas yeah, the main story is very dry. But it's not supposed to be engaging, the main story serves only to give context as to why you are here. The real meat of the game is in the side quests and the exploration, which it does soooo incredibly well.
Look, I respect what you're saying about doing your own thing and sidequests and all, but as you said, the main story is very dry. Fallout 3's is not. Fallout 3 has more of a focus on the main story, and that story benefits from it. Fallout New Vegas has more and better sidequests as a result of less focus on the main storyline.
So... what then? Clearly Fallout 4 has followed in step of 'less story more sidequsts more gun', is the next game's plot just going to be "You woke up in the Wasteland. That's all, have a nice time, here's a nuke launcher, war never changes."
Doesn't Danganronpa have shooter mechanics in an otherwise Ace Attorney-esque game?
Hye Extra Credits You may have not tried "Socrates Jones: Pro philosopher" It's a fun game where you discuss about the nature of morality and the play mechanichs are based on debate (find it for free in kongregate). Also in kongregate there is a Point and click/puzzle game called "The Infinite ocean" that is not only not combat based but actually making a beautiful argument for pacifism (not the same game as "Infinite ocean").
Also another game you should check out is Democracy 2, its a turn based strategy game (sort of) were you rule a country, but the thing is that unlike most games about ruling a nation it is actually about governing not about taking over the world, so you have to look at things like taxes, laws, voting patterns etc.
You should definitively check them out.
"Go look at your game library for a minute" Okay. *Opens steam*
This video got me to look at echo bazaar (now called Fallen London) and now I'm hooked. From learning about the other cities to simply exploring the world. Even with no friends in game it is becoming one of my favorites.
I get the feeling EC doesn't like Fallout: New Vegas.
ye i dont really get why though, they critiqued the games opening but other than that im not sure what they didnt like... i personally enjoyed new vegas just as much as fallout 3... only bad things i have to say are that i found dead money VERY difficult and i didnt like the moment in big mountain where
SPOILER ALERT
you talk to your own brain as if it were a seperate person to you, i realise old world blues is just one big joke about sci fi b-movies but still, the ridiculousness of the situation crossed a line that drew me out of the experience somewhat...
END SPOILERS
and finally when i played honest hearts for the first time i got a glitch where an important friendly character became hostile to me for no reason, i just killed him cause i thought i was meant to and thus skipped the entire honest hearts campaign, except it was my first time so i didnt realise what id missed...
oh... and cazadors... fuck cazadors man...
It is funny. Because they pretend to be interested in plot and lore, yet, they mock Fallout New Vegas. And they call Fallout 3 the "original one"... Uuuuuugh... Because Fallout and Fallout 2 never existed.
+slendy9600
Fallout is an overall silly experience. This is even present in the first games. If we look far enough, the whole series seems silly and at times completely not serious. But, through dialogue, environment and character, we find other stories. Sad stories, fun stories, weird stories. That is the magic of the Fallout series. The whole brain sequence in OWB was very silly, but, you have to admit that it was very funny and surreal, and completely in the bounds of Fallout's suspension of disbelief. If the only thing you took away from OWB is that it was a B-movie joke, then you missed a lot of stuff.
Well, Dead Money can be pretty hard, but many people actually say that is a plus, since the original game is kind of easy.
And, there is no glitch like that in HH. I can assure you that one stray bullet hit Follows Chalk and made him hostile towards you, it has happened to me.
León Arcano good points all round....
i dont think dead money was unreasonably difficult, its just that the first playthrough got quite stressful at times and you aint playing to the best of your ability since as you said the main game is quite easy... on subsequent playthroughs when you know what your doing its quite an enjoyable difficult.
i deffinatly really enjoyed the sillyness of OWB (the psychopathic toaster and the coffee cup obsessed robot were hilarious!) and the fallout series in general (the easter eggs in fallout 2 were awesome) and the think tank were all super interesting and funny and whatnot. i did recognise the deeper meaning behind things especially towards the end, the b-movie comparison was perhaps poor choice of words on my part. perhaps it bugged me because of how OWB came right after dead money which was much much more serious and it lead to a very dramatic shift in tone, for me at least anyway...
hmmm i read about that HH glitch on the fallout wiki since i wasnt sure what happened but i suppose they could be wrong and it is very possible that i accidently shot him and didnt realise cause he didnt look too different from the white legs
D&D with a really good DM.
This. You want mechanics not involving combat? Games based around social interaction or political intrigue? Why not do some RPGs, we've got your non-combat mechanics right here.
Tommy Middleton Yeah. Was talking with my friend about making a campaign where you could have factions that follow a particular person based on their ability to persuade those people - and not just by having high charisma. You could have interesting quests or missions that are necessary for convincing, or giving people reason, to follow you. You could have politicians that settle disputes through games such as chess which might be symbolic of more pressing concerns, i.e. the threat of a war.
While I agree, and I have run a game about a modified succubus trying to supplant political control over a city to draw its citizens into morally questionable decisions to create instability, this can be seen in other games better as DnD, as it is so dependent on combat. Try some of the world of darkness games, especially Vampire the Masquerade (Out of print now but you can find the book online). Its almost entirely based on political intrigue, and while it has full rules for combat, the system is easier to do suspense in then DnD by a long shot.
***** I would add that Dallas was made into an RPG. I don't remember which check you use for combat, but it ends up really awkward. It is assumed that the game will be intrigue oriented (as the show is), rather than combat oriented, unless I suppose the game is at the Ewing Barbecue. Either that or you decide to take your crack at shooting JR.
***** You certainly can do DnD non combat, I didn't intend to say that you can't. The way the rules and environment are set up, however, works much better for you to. While it may be great to spend a session convincing the count to trust you over the castle guard to take care of the thieves in his district, there by buying a valuable ally in the up coming election. You wanna have the next session be capturing the thieves. Where as in a dark ages campaign 2 players managed to sell 1/6th of another players soul for a valuable painting just because one player bet the other player they couldn't get it and the other player couldn't turn down a challenge. There was no fighting in game, every other player was at each others throats over all the backstabbing, and me and my friend Jon had the most fun 45 minutes of our lives.
Incidentally, Echo Bazaar has become a full game under the title of Fallen London. Also see its sequel, Sunless Sea, and Sunless Sky, which was still in production last time I checked a couple months ago.
0:18 Wait what? Fallout New Vegas didn't live up to Fallout 3?
I've watched this episode multiple times, but I never noticed you displayed lies blatantly on screen before.
Oh well, guess I'll just have to agree with your opinions on the industry, rather than individual games, because the latter seems to be faulty on your part.
+Terminator It popped up when he said sequel, but when he said "didn't live up to the previous", Black Ops popped up. It would be pretty ironic if he didn't think New Vegas lived up to 3 on this video since New Vegas let's you go through the whole game with only talking and not having to shoot a single person. At least until you get to the Dam.
+Terminator What about when he called ARMA 2 an CoD clone
Terminator l
Phoenix Wright. Is it non-combat, or do words like Objection! and Take That! really hurt?
I'm an amateur game dev who's been fishing around for just this kind of project and between starting and finishing this video I think I accidentally authored the first draft of a design doc.
So thank you guys for that. you get an instant like and sun.
This episode reminded me of Logic Chess from Ace Attorney Investigations.
It's a "minigame" of sorts where two character get into an logic argument, without needing evidence to prove it, only contextual clues that people drop accidentally, the whole point is to find out through tells when you should remain in silence, or if you should push a little harder before the timer runs out, if you mess up, it triggers a negative and agressive response towards your character, that also removes some time from the clock, it's also incredibly flashy and freaking awesome.
I want to play that Rome game as Cicero...
For those of you watching this in 2016, Echo Bazaar is still around and still awesome. It goes by the name Fallen London now, and has an app form on both Android and iOS.
Ace Attorney has no combat. That game series is awesome.
the moment he said he invited a friend to dinner online i instantly thought of fallen london.
Yes! I've been thinking this a lot recently. I like games I can play with my kids, and my younger one particularly doesn't like the fighting so much. When I look at the games we've really sunk time into, they're about more than fighting - Minecraft, Stardew Valley. You get to actually build something. As others have mentioned, the combat mechanic in the Monkey Island series is a neat departure from how fighting usually happens.
This was something I really limed about skyrim: you are not always fighting. I don't fasttravel and for me it was something like 50% traveling, 25% combat, 25% talking and towning. That way everything was special, I wasn't always fighting so a fight was an event. I wasn't always talking so a conversation was a nice break from the rest. I did a lot of walking, but the senery changes and that also never got borring. I have not found a single game that can do that.
The Walking Dead is much like a non combat game, really it is JUST conversation with the occasional KILL THE ZOMBIE, or person.
For a good example of game that accomplishes making both combat and non-combat mechanics fun - and if you like card games - I would recommend looking into Thea: The Awakening. All conflict in the game is resolved in the same way: playing a card mini-game, where the cards represent your characters and the stats on the card depend on the skills of those characters.
Not only that, fighting your way through challenges tends to be the riskiest option: even if you win a Fight-type challenge, any damage sustained remains on the character. The other challenge-types rarely end up hurting you if you win and even losing is rarely anywhere near as devastating as losing a Fight-challenge.. Of course, losing them can often lead to being forced to another Fight-type challenge afterwards, but I digress.
pheonix wright!!! pheonix wright!!!!
"look at your game library"
boots up steam
I'm glad we've been seeing a lot more of this in recent times. From Ace Attorney to Undertale to Dangan Ronpa (what a throwback) to Oxenfree, we've been seeing a lot more games with a reduced to no combat system yet are still extremely enjoyable and have caught the attention of many people. I'd like to see this trend continue in the future
Yes. Those things ARE less exciting / engaging.
All those ideas are.... exceedingly uninteresting.
Why? Because we can do those sort of stupid things in meatspace.
The appeal of combat in games is that it is not only deeply ingrained in the human psyche... but that most of us are severely violence-deprived due to the policing of modern society. Most of us don't get any real opportunities to act out those violent desires that exist within all of us. THAT is what the combat in games is all about... and why it is unlikely it will ever be really replaced by things we really can just go outside and do.
I have to agree. A big part of gaming is being able to do stuff that you can't do in real life. Why socialize in a game if you can do it with real people?
***** Well maybe some people find it really hard to socialise in real life. Not that I'd know.
But seriously, haven't you watched a film where there's little to no action happening on-screen, yet still felt on the edge of your seat? Mental battles can be just as engaging as physical ones. We can't assume they won't be as fun until we test and try it in whatever forms it can take. There will be at least one that works well.
Sometimes life is an adventure too. I know I've had conversations where I at least felt like I was flipping around an arena, locked in combat, in my mind. Making a game based around that concept wouldn't be totally insane and I'd certainly prefer it to yet another 'Shoot this, slice that' game.
Xackadee The Japanese already have that angle covered. All hail dating simulators. Super-unrealistic depictions of human interaction enabling even the most sheltered hikikomori to proxy the act of getting laid.
The real question is : Would they be fun if they were realistic? And just how fun are the non-18-rated ones?
SotiCoto Yes, I'm sure dating simulators completely capture the rapid-thinking psychological turmoil situation thing I was going for.
SotiCoto People want to be social. That is not strictly going around and seducing people of the opposite sex.
The insult simulator is a great example of this too
15098D Insult Simulator is great.
spent too much time looking for this
Renowned Explorers: International Society is such a game. Engagements can be overcome in one of three ways: Either you fight them, you befriend them or you intimidate/belittle them. Combat is still featured, but you can win the whole game by praising your enemies and encouraging them. And it's a truly great game to boot!
Just saying... but I've sunk at least a few weeks of my life into Visual Novels.
Y'know... those Japanese storytelling games.... that.... often lead to pornographic content BUT NOT ALWAYS... *coughcough*
Heck, for some of them combat happens, but it can't really be called the point of the game if it isn't being controlled nor directed by the player.... e.g. Fate/Stay Night.
And sometimes they're fun even without the pr0n. And sometimes they're not even with it, but that isn't really the point.
Point is.... I don't believe it is particularly difficult to make a fun game without combat. It just doesn't get tried often enough.
those games are fun but some of them are to linear I would like them to be chose your fate books also it's true that *throat clear* not all lead to porn (don't they have a different name for them if there porn versions) as it goes please notice me sempai
Elijah halterman How "linear" they are seems to vary a lot.
One of the first visual novels I ever played (can't remember the name of it, but it was one of the first officially translated into English) was so utterly non-linear that your choices in the game could actually retroactively change the plot. It was a concept that was completely bizarre to me at the time... but rather than just changing the outcome (i.e. future) of the plot, your choices also changed the causes of things that had already happened... resulting in each choice effectively mapping out a completely different story. It was very surreal.
Honestly though... Fate/Stay Night is probably one of the best ones I've played.
I tried Tsukihime... an earlier work by the same team... but it felt kinda lame by comparison.
I played Clannad... and that game was downright traumatic. Never again. So sad.
And obviously I've 100% completed School Days HD. The final version in all its psychopathic, convoluted glory.
+SotiCoto Are you talking about Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward for your first visual novel, because that's what it sounds like your talking about.
The Joseph I can't even remember the name. I just remember it was some isolated space station with various women on it, one of which was a murderous robot... but who the murderous robot was in the first place (and for what reason) changed massively depending on your after-the-fact choices.
SotiCoto Okay it wasn't Zero Escape, not sure what is is then.
How was Fallout: New Vegas more sub-par than 3? I found NV better than 3 due to the amount of choice, smart dialogue and great storytelling akin to 1 and 2. IMO they screwed up Fallout 3.
it didn't have the act 1 sequence, It had the amnesia effect
***** That's only the beginning of the game though. Albeit that was great (probably the only thing I liked about F3) the rest of the game is nothing like that; in other words, the beginning sets you up for a bland world. Besides, F1 already did the "from the vault" thing.
I still like both equally just for different reasons
Agreed also the companions actually personality
I also like the broader weapon choices of FO:NV especially after the weapon DLC.
2:29 "Throwing" ... That's only the half of it, in the anime it shows hell to have beautiful forests, gorgeous waterfalls, and awe-striking landscapes such as floating islands, castles surrounded by the sky or moats of lava, and even some politics that show demons being humane.
Another non-combat alternative is platforming/parkour/that sort of thing. One of my favourite source game gamemodes is surfing, which involves exploiting the physics engine to fly around the map via slopes, and yet most surf maps have an area designed for combat is you fall, when instead you could just be sent back to spawn.
A common feature of parkour games such as mirrors edge and prince of persia: sands of time, is that the combat is the worst part, and the player often just wants it to be over quickly so they can get back to jumping around.
Why must platforming games primarily on the platforming have poorly executed combat that breaks the flow of the platforming?
Gosh someone should just come out with a full on source mod for surfing so that it gets more exposure.
Jumping on heads or using enemies as boosts in different way would be cool.
lectricanman Check out Kreedz Climbing Mod. It isn't just surfing but there are surf maps.
That's just your interpretation, but without 'combat' it wouldn't make too much sense in the games setting. I haven't really played the two games, but Mirrors Edge takes place in a totalitarian state, where you're a courier for revolutionaries. In PoP, you're a wanted prince on the run by a corrupt chancellor.
I may be generalizing, but the times when you have to fight, besides forced encounters, are ones when you mess up a stunt/trick and reveal yourself to your enemy(ies).
This makes me think about spore, where you can fight or befriend other creatures, be political or brutal. And I find being nice to the others way more interesting and fun most of the time :)
This episode was really well written.
One thing that I find that the video does not acknowledge is exploration and adventure games. Think Myst, The Longest Journey, even ICO insofar as that the combat is a very small (and purposefully clunky and non jiblet inducing) part of the game. I think that that is a very good place to start.
Also, the examples you were giving very much felt to me like an attempt to substitute "verbal" for combat. Essentially replacing blood with words, using the same mechanics. Personally, I believe the two to be completely incompatible, and frankly the idea of having a "persuade" bar (read: health bar) takes away from the experience entirely. Again, I think that you're framing the idea wrong, and need to aproach it from the starting point of adventure games.
The Monkey Island games are another great example and they did it quite a few years ago. In either no.2 or no.3 there is insult based combat, where you have to insult multiple people to expand your insult lists in order to defeat smarter opponents.
Chris McCartney This one has me thinking as tech in the gaming world evolves and tech in the world in general becomes more affordable, when voice operated anything.. steps up its "game", and virtual helmets become an "every day thing". This style of game has real world applications. confrontation, conflict, romance, and im really raising the bar on this one no more triangle, X, O, or square answer, you have to answer the way you normally would..... in real life. this topic has me thinking today. (hand shake, high five, or fist bump for James)
Chris McCartney Those aren't very recent games. They are playing recent releases to find an example.
Chris McCartney well, how about Catherine as a more recent example? It mainly takes place in dreams, with puzzles and sheep, and it focused on stability vs infidelity and a bunch of other deep things. Catherine!
Man, even mainstream tabletop RPGS have better combat mechanics than social mechanics. Good luck doing anything in D&D without killing at least 75% of the time. You need to find a smaller obscure game like Don't Lose Your Head to talk your way around enemies.
And then there's Planecape Torment.
You know, I'm sitting here, binging on your videos, in chronological order from the beginning, as usual....and upon finishing this one and liking/agreeing with it (also as usual), I realized that it was made way before a lot of the Telltale's choice games like Walking Dead/Game of Thrones/Wolf Among Us. While watching this, it hit me and I thought "Man, when those games do come out, I bet they'll love those games". Hope to see as your videos evolve, over time, to reflect the new and better games that have come out since these early ones were made. It's almost like...I feel excited for you, because I know what the future brings even when you don't yet (at the time of making this vid). It's just another part of what makes watching this channel's videos so interesting.
Well, there is undertale, a game where combat is much less exciting than talking
There is also renowned explorers, where combat, is only a mere third of the main interactions. Both are really good games so this one is proven
+Oğuz Can Oğuz Undertale's entire central point revolves around fighting. Are you slow, or did you miss both the game's point and this video's point? It's a different approach to fighting, yes. But it's still fighting. Your enemies are still trying to kill you, even if you evade them. This video is about noncombat games. Undertale entirely revolves around combat, and most of the game is spent in combat.
***** And undertale depicts combat in the most stale way possible, at least hurting others , where as talking your way out of things are much more interesting.
This video is about why combat is not essential to video games. Undertale has a mechanic revolving around non combat , that is probably the best part of it. Same essential idea.
So do you just go around nitpicking comments , not even bothering to reaad what they actually say?
that mechanic from undertale can ONLY be used during combat and you are saying it revolves around non-combat? The reason that 'non-combat' is exciting is because you have a clear antagonist, protagonist, obstacle and the stakes are high because of the danger involved with being in a combat. How on earth is it not a combat mechanic when everything that makes it engaging and even possible revolves around being in combat
To the EC crew: One, I don't know how often you guys read these, and two, I don't know if any of you do Flash games at all, but this episode made me think of a pretty cool game I played a while back on Kongregate. It was (is) called Socrates Jones: Pro Philosopher. The point you made about unlocking new arguments or rhetorical techniques reminded me of it because that's exactly what you do. Over the course of the game you debate with famous philosophers and occasionally you'll obtain their trademark strategies or arguments as things you can use in later debates. It's pretty fun, and really well done for a flash game. I recommend checking it out to anyone who thought this episode had a point. www.kongregate.com/games/ChiefWakamakamu/socrates-jones-pro-philosopher?acomplete=socrtes
+
I can give a great example, Emily is Away. In that game, you're using an old windows(?) messenger to converse with your friend, Emily. Over the course of the game, you choose dialogue options to try and build a relationship. During the entire process, every message you send, you put serious thought into how it would be perceived, viewed and judged. Every single choice you make feels like it can decide if you succeed or not. It also does a good job of having the player choice their victory without having to tell them a single goal. Overall, if you're looking for a non-battle game, chess like game that you've described, I highly recommend this to you.
Wouldn't be telltale an innovator in this style of games....
I mean, sure, it does involve combat, but mostly it's just characters speaking, wondering what to say, and how it will affect other characters in the future
Technically a Dragon duel in Skyrim is a very flashy Verbal debate...
Huh.
Dealing with social situations in multiplayer survival games is great too. You can get some cannon fodder, allies or talk your way out of a combat encounter depending on what BS you can make up in the moment.
Other than JRPGs and Zelda most of my games are non combative. Phoenix wright, Harvest Moon, Hatsune Miku: Project Diva, Visual Novels, and Trauma center are among my favorites. Unfortunately I find gamers want their cliques and combative is the big dog.
Anyone know about the game Mabinogi? Am I the only one who thinks the game is a perfect mix between combat experiences and social experiences? I mean the game has been out for over a decade and it still has a huge fanbase. The game is really unnoticed though, and I wish they would recreate it or give it a visual update; but even without those things, the game is still great. Dunno, the topic just reminded me of that.
No, I think we enjoy combat more because we can talk in real life (that doesn't mean we choose to). We can invite a friend over for dinner, we can chat, we can have conversations. What we can't do it run around milling down pedestrians. We can't blast things with fireballs or lasers. We can't run around attacking things with a magic sword.
In 2023, it’s crazy to think these guys played New Vegas and thought Fallout 3 was better. Maybe it was still bugged to oblivion idk.
FALLEN LONDON IS AMAZING!!!!!!
***** See, the point of it is to read the story. It's one of those games blurring the definition of "game". In my experience, people seem to lean significantly more towards the title of interactive novel, kind of like a Choose Your Adventure experience in that you have an impact on the world, but your (as a player) main purpose is just to enjoy the story and take in the lore of the world. It's less of a traditional game, and more of a novel. I hope that at least helps in your understanding of why I (and others) enjoy the game.
***** I have to agree with you 100%. The game was waaaaaaaaaaaaay to grindy. I still play it from time to time, but it's not as enjoyable as it was originally. However, if I may, I'd like to suggest Sunless Sea. There is some of the "your stats aren't high enough" BS (almost entirely in combat), but most of it revolves around exploration and mystery. And whether or not you throw the Eyeless Skull overboard 'cause it freaks you the f*** out. Also, if it moves, it'll try to kill you.
***** Can confirm, Sunless Sea is great for an expansion to Fallen London.
WrestlerTakeo Just play it on Merciful Mode; it wears on the nerves if you die enough times, and the novelty of exploration with it.
Syed Monzareen HYPE!!!! Just got it, when it said to record this in your journal as soon as I signed up I was SOOOO happy since it has its own fun journal thingy!
James looks so happy with his Echo Bazaar spark!!!! XD
Ace Attorney FTW!!!
WHOA WHOA WHOA HOLD UP. New Vegas didn't live up to Fallout 3? Are you kidding? Opinions and all that, obviously, but I thought New Vegas was a much, MUUUUUUUCH better fallout than fallout 3. Like, not even close better.
dude ofcourse it's his opinion
go enjoy your game (y)
Your drunk.
i agree, it offered a lot more freedom. You can complete the game without killing a single person.. or all of them if you're that kind of psychopath. Plus the combat was greatly overhauled for the better in almost every way. (Iron sights, Ammo type, Special melee attacks.. armor DT)
It is more of an RPG because your SPECIAL actually mattered unlike FO3 and you cant max a skill in 4 levels because there are less skill points per level.
The story in fallout 3 centered around your character YOUR dad has gone missing and you're finishing YOUR dad's project. In new vegas the story is only about you for the first half. then its about New Vegas as a whole because you have to decide which side to take the dam with and you end up interacting with every faction along the way.
Don't get me wrong, i still love fallout 3. i just feel that fallout New Vegas is a much deeper game that i can really get lost in.
Yeah, that is basically exactly how I feel about it too, but you explained it in a much less pissy way haha, and for that I thank you
Renowned Explorers has a combat, cunning, and friend mechanic. Which is basically an attack action but with diff animations for the cunning and friend attacks.
Disgaea is a game about throwing people. I have to write down that one
Gea Force not just about throwing people. It's about lifting them. Then someone lifting that person. Then some one else lifting that person. Before you know it. You have a tower of people that are all lifting each other. And they can then. Start throwing each other.
donuts82 you sir deserve a like XD
what about animal crossing'??
+metal maple I think that it kind of falls into the "Sim" category.
I'm not surprised RPG mechanics leads well into non-combat situations. After all, both Western RPGs and Eastern RPGs were descended from tabletop RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons and GURPS, games where non-combat situations are common. The reason why they were called "Role-Playing Games" in the first place was because those games revolve around role-playing, or the act of pretending to be someone you're not.
Another video game genre that leads well to non-combat based scenarios are adventure games. Unsurprisingly, they're descended from tabletop RPGs as well. The adventure game genre was named after "Collossal Cave Adventure", the first adventure game to ever exist, or at least the one that populized the genre. Said game was, in turn, partially inspired by tabletop RPGs.
Racing simulators could be described as Combat Games, right?
I've always wondered why nobody has created a *Driving* simulator.
Sure, I love Gran Turismo and it's fun. But how much of what you learn there do you _actually_ use in your daily life?
Sometimes you just want to drive around the city, or the mountains, or figure out how good your driving is in a common situation.
There are a few driving sims out there, just, why play a game that is exactly the same areal life. most of the time, they are created and used for testing out how driving would play out if people did this before driving. And the software is modified to also help figure out crime scenes.
I wish that there were more driving sims like BeamNG (not sure if this is the name) and driving sims that run in my computer
That's what the creator of the original Outrun set out to make
I bet you'd love Flower on PS3. :)
Euro truck simulator 2 is your friend.