Yea, I'm not someone that hops anymore lol, I just use Hyprland and as of rn keep XFCE installed as a backup for gaming when something breaks (looking at you Nvidia drivers) and then I use KDE on stuff that I don't wanna bother getting hyprland setup on.
@@coompiler9029linux user when wayland - "Who cares about security Linux user when windows "WHY THE FKC WOULD YOU USE SUCH A VULNERABLE OPERATING SYSTEM YOU PLEBS"
as an average user that refuses to become a linux wizard what bothers me the most is the existence of three big ways of installing software and the bloat it generates. You can no longer get away with a 30 Gb linux partition like back in the day. In a way it has become like windows or macos.
Funnily, I have exactly 30GB for linux and I've been doing university projects on it for a year or two. But yes, I don't dare even think about adding a desktop environment on it lol! Bro! Some package made me install Wayland! I don't use Wayland but it was a dependency. Another made me install pipewire, another btrfs, and all of these packages update per update. And I don't even know how .npm got so heavy. I don't even have that many apps. I made an empty 6GB file to act as a plug to help me reserve 6GB
@@damianateiro I am pretty sure flatpak wanting to install a bunch of nonsense whenever you want to install a basic app is one of the reasons it can't be one.
@@alpacamale2909 It is supposed to only repeat the installation of dependencies once. But 30 GB is not useful nowadays if you are going to make serious use of the PC, because you think that everyone complains that Macs come in their base model with 256gb?
Not totally related, but I use KDE and recently an update "broke" kcalc (gui calculator program). Someone had changed how the parser works and so ".1" would lead to an error, so you had to type in leading zeros every time. Also running totals didn't work anymore like when you usually do "2 + 2 enter + 5 enter". It was essentially unusable for me and many others who filed bug reports. The devs were completely oblivious because they use the calculator differently and always use leading zeros for decimals explicitly, etc.
Matt's favorite desktop must be called Ubiquity. He distrohops every six months just to make another "best distro of year 202x" video. Distro hopping is so 2020... ugh🤢
not being able to have multiple portals installed at once is a packaging issue. Having these packages conflict is wrong, especially since there is a whole configuration system in place in xdg-desktop-portal to select the correct portal(s) to start for any given DE. You could even configure it to use different portal implementations for different Portal DBus APIs. e.g.: if sway supported the necessary extension protocols, I could use xdg-desktop-portal-hyprland for Global Shortcuts while still using xdg-desktop-portal-wlr for screenshot/screenshare
not sure why distro hop when you can basically get them all operating the same. Just use the most stable one lol. I will probably hop to arch and fedora at some point (I have two computers) but do not feel the need now as nothing is broken and im not bored enough
I think it is realistic to assume we just won't have a ton of small window managers to suit everyone's taste anymore, and that Wayland realistically is going to dictate a structure closer to a full DE. wlroots might be better than nothing, but realistically that project is going to change upstream in ways not every developer will like, and will also resist some features they want, so in practice every window manager will likely still have to maintain their own compositor, whether it's a fork of wlroots or something they wrote themselves. That barrier to entry is going to mean that one-man projects are out, and you need a team at least the size of something like MATE or XFCE to be a viable option in the post-Wayland world. Even stuff like Hyprland is closer to being a very experimental and minimalist desktop environment, than it is to being the equivalent of an X11 window manager. Wayland simply isn't going to hold developer's hands like X11 did, won't give you a solid base to build on or decent fallback solutions for when you can't write your own stuff, and is basically going to push a lot of hard work and tough calls onto those developing a window manager. A lot of developers will find the barrier to entry is too high, and they have to say that their project is canceled when Xorg goes away. Will there eventually be a solution to this problem, a decent reference implementation? Maybe, but I don't think there's a lot of incentive to develop one... a whole generation of Linux users will grow up not having the option of using random window managers anymore after Wayland sweeps away all the old X11 options people were using, and by the time a solution is found, most people will have gotten used to using a DE like KDE or GNOME, maybe something like Hyprland or Sway. But I'm sure that most of the old X11 window managers like IceWM or XMonad will be gone without replacements, and that by the time Wayland matures to the point they could potentially be replaced, the newer generation of developers won't care about reviving them because they grew up on Hyprland/Sway/GNOME and never knew anything else. I think realistically, Linux users are going to have to get used to relying on bigger projects that have the manpower to fill in the blanks where Wayland leaves off, and accept that the free-wheeling days of using random window managers are over. Corporate and mobile needs, plus the demand for security, don't leave much room for the original hacker/tinkerer spirit of Linux power users. Now it's like you're either a hard-core developer working with a team, or an end user taking what you're given, no room for anything in between. I don't like it, but this just seems to be the direction of things in modern software in general, Wayland is just the way it's manifesting on Linux.
I think we will have a lot more over time but a lot of the options people bring up have been around for a long time, so it might take a long time for people who want to do so to sit down and work on something
I honestly think that wayland needs to become a server and then have WM's and DE's on top. Having to create a complete implementation from scratch is causing a large number of fragmentation/compatibility problems. Needed to learn from what happened with X. But it was thrown out the window. I think now there is some standardization with wlroots being the base but everything else has been a mess.
I remember WM hopping being very easy back around the turn of the century. Edit: 1. Install extra WM, 2. select wm from menu. You did not even need to restart your running applications!
DE hopping is stupidly easy on NixOS or Guix, an example for Guix is change "(xfce-desktop-service-type)" to "(kde-desktop-service-type)", regenerate the config and all deps of the previous de will be removed and replaced with KDE. IMO Guix is easier than NixOS, to install Guix grab the iso, and it autogenerates a system configuration for you.
In Guix or NixOS the entire system is "generated" using a single configuration file, that sounds hard to do, but Guix autogenerates a config for you using the options you selected in the installer ISO.
The Linux desktop that use primarily window managers / compositors on Wayland to reduce RAM usage or customize the system to the extreme are going to suffer a lot of changes and extra configuration . At least until Wayland is a stable thing. This is why I prefer desktops like KDE (K Desktop Environment) or GNOME or XFCE, because it's a final product ready to use. I would like to test Hyprland on my real machine but I can't for many inconvenients: with NVIDIA, not designed to use with two desktops, a lot of extra configuration and so on. Right now I'm using Arch with KDE + bismuth WM, and if not Arch would be Debian or Fedora (with Novara). And I'm not switching between desktops or distros anymore is not practical or productive. What I want is improve over Arch packages, stability on KDE and window managers and more people and companies coming to Linux desktop.
Once Cosmic is launched I will never look back.
5:44 NixOS can have multiple portals installed at the same time as well btw
Yea, I'm not someone that hops anymore lol, I just use Hyprland and as of rn keep XFCE installed as a backup for gaming when something breaks (looking at you Nvidia drivers) and then I use KDE on stuff that I don't wanna bother getting hyprland setup on.
I'm XOrg forever, tried and tested and rock solid for what I want.
B-but it's insecure...
Xorg is dead but Wayland is shit. We are not in a good place!
@@coompiler9029linux user when wayland - "Who cares about security
Linux user when windows "WHY THE FKC WOULD YOU USE SUCH A VULNERABLE OPERATING SYSTEM YOU PLEBS"
as an average user that refuses to become a linux wizard what bothers me the most is the existence of three big ways of installing software and the bloat it generates. You can no longer get away with a 30 Gb linux partition like back in the day. In a way it has become like windows or macos.
Funnily, I have exactly 30GB for linux and I've been doing university projects on it for a year or two. But yes, I don't dare even think about adding a desktop environment on it lol! Bro! Some package made me install Wayland! I don't use Wayland but it was a dependency. Another made me install pipewire, another btrfs, and all of these packages update per update. And I don't even know how .npm got so heavy. I don't even have that many apps. I made an empty 6GB file to act as a plug to help me reserve 6GB
you sure about that ?
linux runs just fine with 30gb , but its all the stuff you install later on which may make it so that 30gb is no longer enough
Bro, if you are going to seriously use a current system on the desktop, 30 GB is useless, on Windows, Mac OS, Linux, iOS, BSD or Android
@@damianateiro I am pretty sure flatpak wanting to install a bunch of nonsense whenever you want to install a basic app is one of the reasons it can't be one.
@@alpacamale2909 It is supposed to only repeat the installation of dependencies once. But 30 GB is not useful nowadays if you are going to make serious use of the PC, because you think that everyone complains that Macs come in their base model with 256gb?
Linux desktop isn't an organization or corporation. It's what happens when you have too many cooks in the kitchen. Basic things keep breaking.
Not totally related, but I use KDE and recently an update "broke" kcalc (gui calculator program). Someone had changed how the parser works and so ".1" would lead to an error, so you had to type in leading zeros every time. Also running totals didn't work anymore like when you usually do "2 + 2 enter + 5 enter". It was essentially unusable for me and many others who filed bug reports. The devs were completely oblivious because they use the calculator differently and always use leading zeros for decimals explicitly, etc.
Arch & GNOME is the gateway running Wayland, XFCE and Budgie are coming along but on the deep dive Hyprland is my experimental learning
Honestly, if I had to use his system I think I'd end up touching so much grass I'd become a gardener. It sounds like a nightmare
Matt's favorite desktop must be called Ubiquity. He distrohops every six months just to make another "best distro of year 202x" video.
Distro hopping is so 2020... ugh🤢
not being able to have multiple portals installed at once is a packaging issue. Having these packages conflict is wrong, especially since there is a whole configuration system in place in xdg-desktop-portal to select the correct portal(s) to start for any given DE. You could even configure it to use different portal implementations for different Portal DBus APIs.
e.g.: if sway supported the necessary extension protocols, I could use xdg-desktop-portal-hyprland for Global Shortcuts while still using xdg-desktop-portal-wlr for screenshot/screenshare
not sure why distro hop when you can basically get them all operating the same. Just use the most stable one lol. I will probably hop to arch and fedora at some point (I have two computers) but do not feel the need now as nothing is broken and im not bored enough
I think it is realistic to assume we just won't have a ton of small window managers to suit everyone's taste anymore, and that Wayland realistically is going to dictate a structure closer to a full DE. wlroots might be better than nothing, but realistically that project is going to change upstream in ways not every developer will like, and will also resist some features they want, so in practice every window manager will likely still have to maintain their own compositor, whether it's a fork of wlroots or something they wrote themselves. That barrier to entry is going to mean that one-man projects are out, and you need a team at least the size of something like MATE or XFCE to be a viable option in the post-Wayland world. Even stuff like Hyprland is closer to being a very experimental and minimalist desktop environment, than it is to being the equivalent of an X11 window manager. Wayland simply isn't going to hold developer's hands like X11 did, won't give you a solid base to build on or decent fallback solutions for when you can't write your own stuff, and is basically going to push a lot of hard work and tough calls onto those developing a window manager. A lot of developers will find the barrier to entry is too high, and they have to say that their project is canceled when Xorg goes away.
Will there eventually be a solution to this problem, a decent reference implementation? Maybe, but I don't think there's a lot of incentive to develop one... a whole generation of Linux users will grow up not having the option of using random window managers anymore after Wayland sweeps away all the old X11 options people were using, and by the time a solution is found, most people will have gotten used to using a DE like KDE or GNOME, maybe something like Hyprland or Sway. But I'm sure that most of the old X11 window managers like IceWM or XMonad will be gone without replacements, and that by the time Wayland matures to the point they could potentially be replaced, the newer generation of developers won't care about reviving them because they grew up on Hyprland/Sway/GNOME and never knew anything else. I think realistically, Linux users are going to have to get used to relying on bigger projects that have the manpower to fill in the blanks where Wayland leaves off, and accept that the free-wheeling days of using random window managers are over. Corporate and mobile needs, plus the demand for security, don't leave much room for the original hacker/tinkerer spirit of Linux power users. Now it's like you're either a hard-core developer working with a team, or an end user taking what you're given, no room for anything in between. I don't like it, but this just seems to be the direction of things in modern software in general, Wayland is just the way it's manifesting on Linux.
I think we will have a lot more over time but a lot of the options people bring up have been around for a long time, so it might take a long time for people who want to do so to sit down and work on something
I honestly think that wayland needs to become a server and then have WM's and DE's on top. Having to create a complete implementation from scratch is causing a large number of fragmentation/compatibility problems. Needed to learn from what happened with X. But it was thrown out the window. I think now there is some standardization with wlroots being the base but everything else has been a mess.
Fedora allows multiple portals - I have xdg-desktop-portal-gtk and kde both installed (infact KDE/Kinoite ships both)
The GTK portal is a special kind of portal
i would much prefer to be able to DE hop, but that is even harder to do than distro hopping
Yeah DE hopping is stupidly hard. Like wtf does KDE and gnome settings affect each other? Like wtf.
I remember WM hopping being very easy back around the turn of the century.
Edit:
1. Install extra WM,
2. select wm from menu.
You did not even need to restart your running applications!
DE hopping is stupidly easy on NixOS or Guix, an example for Guix is change "(xfce-desktop-service-type)" to "(kde-desktop-service-type)", regenerate the config and all deps of the previous de will be removed and replaced with KDE.
IMO Guix is easier than NixOS, to install Guix grab the iso, and it autogenerates a system configuration for you.
From there you can learn how the config file works, how to regenerate it and how to change different things. Guix has fantastic documentation.
In Guix or NixOS the entire system is "generated" using a single configuration file, that sounds hard to do, but Guix autogenerates a config for you using the options you selected in the installer ISO.
The Linux desktop that use primarily window managers / compositors on Wayland to reduce RAM usage or customize the system to the extreme are going to suffer a lot of changes and extra configuration . At least until Wayland is a stable thing.
This is why I prefer desktops like KDE (K Desktop Environment) or GNOME or XFCE, because it's a final product ready to use.
I would like to test Hyprland on my real machine but I can't for many inconvenients: with NVIDIA, not designed to use with two desktops, a lot of extra configuration and so on.
Right now I'm using Arch with KDE + bismuth WM, and if not Arch would be Debian or Fedora (with Novara).
And I'm not switching between desktops or distros anymore is not practical or productive. What I want is improve over Arch packages, stability on KDE and window managers and more people and companies coming to Linux desktop.
I still use and love Manjaro and also Arco!!!
I don't have these problems on Windows
this man is crazy
wow Wayland just went from something I in theory want to try to the devil....
Try it out, sometimes the devil is nice
It sadly is gonna take a long long time to converge again... 😞
numero uno :o