Low Angle or Bedrock-Style Handplane?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2019
- Lots of talk about low angle planes and why they are the better option, I beg to differ. In this video I will share why I feel that way. I forgot to mention in the video that historically they (the low angle planes) were not the "popular" choice. Based on what we have the most of all these many years later, the bevel down, traditional plane was king of the shop. All this is just my 2 cents worth but check out my evidence and decide for yourself.
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Rob, I feel you missed a couple of positive points of the Bevel Up plane:
1. The fact that you can own one plane and have a couple of blades for the same plane. Most owners have a standard 25 degree blade and also have another pre-honed blade set higher for figured wood. (up to say 55 degrees in total with the 12 degree bed)
2. with point one above, the adjustable throat is a huge benefit. After switching to your second blade for figured wood you can in seconds quickly close the mouth to suit.
3. Also, if you review the Veritas models they come with other feature like grub screws that prevent you pushing the adjustable throat into the blade. (as well as controlling lateral movement of the blade)
4. The bevel Up plane has the benefit of being able to perform like two standard bevel down planes which of course has huge cost savings.
5. A final thought for other brands is that they offer a choice of blade metals - the PM-VII becoming a favorite of many modern woodworkers.
6. On the Bevel Up plane you featured - you showed the method of lateral adjust of the blade by using a blade hammer - the Veritas has lateral adjustment built in. I appreciate you aren't reviewing a Veritas - but as i'm aware of your long history, knowledge and skill from watching your videos for years - I feel you could have shared more by explaining that other premium brands are available that offer more that you are showing in this video.
Here is my rebuttal to #1, plane length dictates its function so one is not going to cut it. A second blade with a 20 degree back bevel does the same thing in a bevel down plane. #2, bedrock style planes allow the same function of closing and opening the throat. #3, dont like those planes. #4, already covered. #5, lots of options for after market blades. #6, I dont like the norris style adjuster so I dont promote it. As was stated in the video, this was "my" opinion.
Have always had tear out on my Wood River #4. Your advice was to close the throat. I did - no help. Bought the Low Angle and it worked much better but I was still unhappy about the #4 performance. Bought a #5 1/2 after watching this video - planes perfectly but I have used the #4 so long it feels "right". Went back to the #4 and went through set up again for the gosh knows how many times. The problem turned out to be the mating surface between the cutting iron and the cap iron. I believe it was trapping / holding the shaving between them long enough to tear out the grain. Since the cap iron appeared to have been ground I bought a new one at Wood Craft. I installed the new cap iron without any other changes to the plane and I make shavings like the ones on your video. Happiness attained.
As a convert to bevel ups, let me tell you why. Firstly the very emphasis on "low angle" is misleading, they are essentially variable angle planes, and is the high angle of attack that is most useful. On really uncooperative timber when tear out is an issue with the 45 degrees of a bevel down plane, a lower angle will make the situation worse. A high angle can mitigate things, so the choices are, back bevels , high angle frogs (not available form most manufacturers), scraper planes or bevel ups, it is this last option I favour. The low bedding angle gives it the edge over the back bevel route, it is less prone to chatter for one thing. I know, I will have LN and WR owners indignantly protesting at the suggestion of such a thing, but you can't defy the laws of physics. It should be said, it is useful to have one or two blades of differing pitch. The adjustment isn't more onerous once you get used to it, but it is a shame the are not a bit beefier. That said, my Veritas bevel up smoother is pretty much there with a 4 1/2. Bevel downs are still my go to plane, but every now and then the "low angle" proves its worth.
Rob, that’s absolutely the best explanation of hand plane differences that I’ve seen. I’ve been wondering what the difference is between these two and which one to consider. Now I have some great information for making my decision. Thanks.
Thank you Rob, I was about to buy the number 16 ,since I have the Number 6 Stanley , I think you saved me a lot money and that woodwook is my hobby now.
I very much appreciate your straight forward way of talking about your preferences. You are very clear that this your opinion and others are free to come up with different opinions. The hand woodworking community is about sharing our love and passion about woodworking not about who is "right'. Keep up the good work.
Once again Rob, you have made correct assessments. I started out watching Paul Sellers and appreciate what I learned and still am from him, but I find myself gravitating to your teachings and systems nearly exclusively. You just make sense and back things up with excellent videos, not to mention an excptional pursuit of excellence. Thanks for all that. Your support of Veterans cemented the growing respect for you.
I liked this video. It actually illustrates differences in the two types of planes instead of doing what so many other people do and gloss over those differences.
Rob produces great content, I enjoy his channel, but sometimes he 'forgets' that there are competitors on the market who makes great tools.
He compared a great bevel down plane with the worst bevel up plane (Woodriver).
Veritas bevel down jack plane is quite heavy (6 lbs), the side edges are wide enough to be used on a shooting board, it has a 'thumb' recess on the sides for better grip in shooting mode, the lateral set screws prevents the blade moving, it has a Norris style adjuster for adjusting the blade (depth and lateral), the blade is 1/4" thick and 2-1/4" wide, the steel is superior, overall, a great plane.
As gav2759 mentioned below, one of the the most useful feature of a bevel down plane, is the ability to change the pitch by replacing the blade only, and maintaining the other settings. On a bevel down plane, I used to put back bevels, but it took a lot of time to replace the blade, adjust the cip breaker and finally re-adjust the frog - a pain in the ass.
Woodriver produces great tools, but they are all 'inspired' (sometimes just replicas) from Stanley, Preston. etc, just minor improvements and better materials, not much innovation...
There’s me thinking I needed two more planes. Now Rob has saved me several hundred pounds I just need to find a #45 with a complete set of blades for £10 and I’m a happy boy.
In the TH-cam world where everyone is telling you what you need it’s refreshing to hear what you don’t need. A very sincere thank you for explaining this.
The low angle plane is a bit of a Swiss Army Knife of the planes, one plane with multiple blades at varying angles (all the way to 90). This works for the traveling craftsman or hobbyist with the limited budget and space, in a production environment in a shop the bedrock planes will always shine.
I own the L/N low angle jack plane and I found it very useful even on the shooting board with the hot dog attachment. Having said that it can be to light in some situations depending on the wood type, and it works well with a toothed blade. If I had my time again knowing what I’ve learned from Rob I’d go the other way and buy the 51/2 first.
I purchased the wood river 5 1/2 on your recommendation but still need to sharpen the blade. Fairly new to using planes so looking forward to using it
Even though I personally wouldn't prioritize the weight of the 5-1/2 (less need for shooting board work makes me prefer the #5)... I agree on all other points here. Precise depth adjustment and precise lateral adjustment, are needed constantly in general work. When the mouth opening occasionally needs changing, that's far less critical (no need to do it "on the fly"), and far easier to see what you've got. So I choose the bevel-down platform where depth and lateral adjustments are much more convenient and controllable. Easier mouth adjustment on the "low angle" doesn't matter. And the angle isn't really lower anyway.
High Angle (for gnarly grain) is actually where the bevel up plane has a bit of an advantage: Just quickly drop in an alternate blade with a steeper bevel. But considering the aforementioned advantages of the frog style planes, I say putting a back-bevel on an alternate "bevel-down" blade, is easy enough to do for those rare occasions. That's not even mentioning the Lie-Nielsen and L.V./Veritas high-angle frog options.
When you can't tell if it's a really thin string of tissue paper or Rob Cosman's plane shavings.
Totally agree! ! I never understood the popularity of the 62 type planes.
Thanks Rob. Very clear and concise comparison. I agree, as my WR #5 1/2 is just better all around for me than my LV #5 low angle jack which I really don’t use like I thought I would. Both are fine planes, I just gravitate to the 5 1/2 because of its heavier weight, versatility and ease of adjustment in use. Just my long term experience, other users may feel differently.
Michael O.
Alabama, USA
Thanks. Love the video! (and I wish I had your workbench)
Adjustment and use of the bevel up is exactly like a pocket plane.
Treat it like a large pocket plane rather than a different bench plane.
Rob you elobated it so nicely ,as Mr Paul Sellers.So nice of you to bust this myth .Thanks
While I think the low angle jack is a decent plane, I really don't think it can compare to a standard bevel down plane for general work. There is a reason that the standard bevel down bench plane IS the standard for most work and low angle bevel up planes are really specialty planes. The chipbreaker is the the dealbreaker when trying to avoid tear out. Any plane can avoid tear out if they have a really sharp blade and if they are taking a very fine cut/shaving. The real issue comes when you want to remove a reasonable amount of material when you are flattening a board (think any step between scrub and smoothing) and you don't want to take an enormous number of super fine shavings to get it done. A chipbreaker/double iron has been the standard for general work since the late 1700's.
well explained rob , got alot out of it.... think ill stick with my no 3,4,5 stanley
Thanks Rob. I don't have a No. 62 and maybe now I won't think I need one.
Mr. Cosman,
I am new to woodworking this video was extremely helpfull, thank you sir. My question is when would a 55° frog be usefull?
Figured wood, personally I would make a high angle blade with a 20 degree back bevel, hard to push but very effective and much easier to use. Accomplish the same effect with less cost and effort.
I think that the best 5½ plane is Veritas Custom Jack. It took the best from both types of planes. It has a double blade like a traditional Bedrock plane and has an adjustable mouth like a low angle plane. In addition it is much more comfortable to hold because your hand is not limited by the blade. IMHO Veritas Custom is the most convenient and well-thought-out design, in which all the minor flaws that have been in Stanley planes for decades are fixed. Bravo, Veritas!
I disagree, the Norris style adjuster is a game killer. Completely negates that plane as a serious contender.
@@RobCosmanWoodworking well, as we, Russians, say: all markers are completely different in color and taste. I respect your opinion, Rob, and I don't say that you're wrong, my experience is just different ) That's normal, because every woodworker prefer the tools which seems to be most convenient for him.
Thanks for your videos!
Hey Rob,
I love my 5-1/2 for all the reasons you cite. But I’ve been considering a 62 using a heavily cambered blade for flattening and stock removal on heavily figured wood; possibly even sharpening a second blade at a higher angle. I’d welcome your thoughts and suggestions for any alternative approaches. Wooden scrub plane? Or my Stanley #7 with a heavily cambered blade. Above all, I’m deeply appreciative of you sharing your knowledge and your Purple Heart work.
I prefer a lighter "scrub" plane. I appreciate a heavy plane for most work but when prepping rough wood it is not so welcome. I use the scrub more like a hatchet, the stanley 40 1/2 was perfect for that job, a LN is the closest offering.
@@RobCosmanWoodworking I use one of the German style wooden scrub planes and it is fantastic. It was very inexpensive and the blade is great too. I wish I could remember where I bought it now!
Thank you Rob!
you are welcome.
Late to the party here, but I have one thing to input. I've made oak butcher blocks (end grain). I do the bulk of flattening with my No.7 LN. The shavings will be full width bacon strips, but the surface wasn't great. I followed up with a vintage Stanley 62 and only dust came out, but the surface was perfect. I did have the Stanley at 25 degrees so a 37 planing angle. Maybe that helped, I don't know. My 2 cents
A butcher block, end grain is a good use of a low angle.
I might have missed it, but I feel like an advantage of the bevel-up plane is that you can adjust the bevel to be closer to a York pitch or middle pitch plane (50 - 55 degrees) which you can't do with a Bailey or Bedrock style plane, since the attack angle is always 45 degrees regardless of the bevel pitch unless you have a secondary frog. It's nice to have one plane with 2 irons (one at 30ish degrees and one at 40ish degree) to handle different types of wood. I've been watching Rob's videos long enough to know that he is so good at sharpening, he can plane anything with a no.5 1/2 plane. I believe the Stanley no.162 style planes can be adjusted with your tote hand while it's in motion also.
tomwolber Hi Tom, check out my video on creating a small 20 degree back bevel on any plane blade that changes the attack angle to 65 degrees on a bench plane.
@@RobCosmanWoodworking So in this case, has the bench plane not become a bevel-up plane, as it is the 20° back bevel that has made the difference?
@@RobCosmanWoodworking Hi Rob, would you mind posting a link to that video? I looked and could only find your 2 minute long advertisement video for your matched set with the 20 degree back bevel that you sell.
Using an online triangle calculator, i did some figuring and think that using an eclipse style honing guide (assuming a standard setting of 50mm for 25 degree for plane blades) you could flip the blade over and extend it to 64mm (20 degrees) or 76mm (17 degrees) to create the back bevel. Though I haven't tried it yet.
Jesse Griggs th-cam.com/video/WKoFLz1nH9o/w-d-xo.html
@@RobCosmanWoodworking thanks! will be trying that soon.
For sure, helpful. It is always great to hear different ideas. I was told that the primary reason to get a low angle plane was for working with softwoods? Hardwood chisels ~30 degrees, softwood chisels around 20 degrees. Seems reasonable to have the same apply to planes? So your #5.5 is at 45 and you could reasonably have the low angle at as low as 32 degrees (12 bed angle 20 degree blade)? I can see, in that case an argument being made for both planes. Obviously the trad plane would be the “one” plane, but, if you work a lot with softwoods perhaps you should have both? Especially if you can get a low angle with a proper adjustable mechanism . . .
Hi Rob, well put. Question: Why do we need a chip breaker on a "bevel down" plane, but get away without one on a "bevel up" plane?
Steve Bosun good question. Historically, the chip breaker functioned as a support piece for the blade’s edge, when the thickness of blades were around .085” thick, to reduce chatter when in use. Also, the plane’s frog has a yoke that engages the chip breaker, allowing the blade to be advanced or retracted. In modern planes, blade thicknesses have increased to as much as .140”, so they aren’t necessarily fulfilling that responsibility anymore, but the advancement and retraction mechanism relies on the chip breaker, hence why they are still in use. Bevel up planes use thicker blades and have notches on the underside that engage the projection mechanism.
Thanks Rob, I see exactly what you mean about the yoke. Hadn't given that a thought.
I have a BedRock 4 1/2 corrugated plane. I was told that a Hock blade would make this plane a much better plane. What are your thoughts?
I know almost nothing about planes and i want to buy one, so this was interresting for me.
When you buy one you will end up buying loads 🤣it's a addiction just like any tools we'll in my case 😉
Paul Sellers said the same, low angle planes are basically at the same angle . I have a low angle and see no advantage. Keep it sharp and it will work.
My question, is it worth spending 150$ more to buy a lie Nelson or is the wood river equal? I have a few lie Nelson tools and they are fantastic. I need to replace my old Stanley 4 1/2.
I believe I can provide an answer. I know Rob. For a bit over ten years, I've been his teaching assistant when he comes to Seattle. I also am familiar with both LN and WoodRiver. I own both.
So, the LN has less backlash than does the WR. This means there is a bit more slop both in the lateral adjustment lever and the adjustment wheel. Does that make a difference in performance? No!
Rob will produce the same quality of shaving with either plane. But I will suggest that when you decide to replace the blade, buy the LN. It's a much superior blade.
I suppose if one does not put a secondary, as well as a tertiary angle on the LA, there would be a difference. I have a 4-1/2 and a LA and I use both often, but I do use my 4-1/2 on the shooting board for the reasons Rob states.
Microbeveling really doesn't affect the cutting performance. Most people don't even include in the angle of attack as it's basically acting like a convex edge.
@@carlantaya175 I would think on a bevel-up plane it would, but I ain't no expert.
Happy birthday 🎂Canada
I have the 62 as my first plane, it's really nice. But I see the "on the fly" adjustment for getting those micro thin shavings as a superior feature. So now in addition to a 4-1/2 and dovetail saw, I have the 5-1/2 on my lust list.
All solid points, except that a lot of people don't use micro-bevels, meaning you can get lower angles, far more than 2 degrees lower. Not saying low angle is better, just saying there can be a sizable difference.
fucking awesome
As a favour to me, please drop the profanity, “awesome” gets your point across. Thanks.
I own only 2 planes, the Wood River low angle block and the low angle jack. This is a little disappointing to watch as I bought them both based on your previous videos telling us how great they are. And specifically how the low angle jack was a great general purpose plane and great for the shooting board because of its length. Now it seems you have changed your tune.
TT OKC Go back and watch it again, I reviewed from the perspective of quality of manufacturing not from my recommendation of what to buy. Still a good plane but not what I use. I stated in the video why I prefer the bevel down, you don’t have to dig much to find equal endorsements for both, you just got mine.
Aren't the wood river planes made in China?
Yes they are.