Review: Tales of the Valiant by Kobold Press | 2024 Players Handbook
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ค. 2024
- Tales of the Valiant is made by Kobold Press, and you can find it at the link below, or here on TH-cam @KoboldPressGames
www.talesofthevaliant.com/
0:00 Intro
0:09 Quality of Life Improvements
4:24 New Mechanics
7:09 Lineage, Heritage & Background
10:23 Classes
12:28 Spell Lists
13:36 Sumary
14:39 Outro - เกม
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Thank you for being one of the few covering ToV. I've been on board for quite a while but haven't seen many videos since its release.
I always love covering good games, and ToV is definitely one of them. I hope people come around and see they, and don’t just stick with a worse product because it’s what they know. Fingers crossed more discover it. I’ll certainly keep trying to spread the word.
Why is Tales of the Valiant suddenly a low popularity RPG? Wasn't there high levels of hype prior to the game launch?
@@MatthewCenance It is just D&D version X, and there are a fuck ton of D&D variants out there.
@@MatthewCenance my guess (as @MatthewCenance alludes to) is that it doesn't differ enough from 5e. There's a handful of other DnD-likes that are taking advantage of the OGL fumble - each designed to be a better DnD than DnD. I'm not going to dive down the rabbit hole of whether these other systems are better. But I'll note that there's always been "better DnD than DnD" - including DnD (4e). But they were a problem.
The OGL exists... and DnD 5e exists (as does Pathfinder)... because fragmentation was killing the industry. It doesn't matter whether any given system is a better system. If it doesn't have the network effect of a large player base, it starts to die off and players exit the hobby. DnD 5e has that network effect.
This is why I'm interested in TotV. Others dismiss it as "just DnD." But I think that's the strength. It can exist within the network effect of 5e. Its compatible with all the material and mechanics you're used to. It plays more like the tradition of house rules than smacking a player up side the head with a completely new rule set. And thus it is less likely to fragment the hobby and speed its demise.
YMMV.
@@MatthewCenance Several reasons. They got a lot of hype under the name "black flag" and lost a lot of name recognition by changing it. They had a really disappointing first preview with lackluster options, balance and mechanical errors, etc. Lastly, when it finally came out a lot of people were dissapointed in how similar it was to 5e, when people were expecting more drastic and creative changes. Besides these reasons, more creative, bolder and better marketed options like MCDM, Daggerheart and DC20 have came up and completely stole the spotlight from what feels to some like "just a 5e homebrew".
Great summary on the distinctions/improvements ToV makes on 5e 2014. Nice to have a succinct video with examples that I can pass to people instead of giving the spiel myself. Already shared the video a couple places since you posted it!
Thanks Kendrick, I appreciate it. I try to put a lot of work into these reviews, glad to see it comes through in the finished product.
Those shares are a big deal for the algorithm btw, so thank you.
Thanks for doing this. This is probably one of the better ones I've seen that actually sits down and really talks about what is in this game. As someone on the fence it's kind of neat to see what they really did and didn't do. And this is coming from Pathfinder Second type of GM.
Thanks man, I spend a lot of time on reviews because it’s something people have poured a lot of effort into, and I want to respect that.
Honestly I think most people should just start using ToV instead of 5e, it really is better, but unfortunately I think most don’t seem interested. I guess that familiarity really does the heavy lifting.
@@homebrewedtabletop It's kind of one of the reasons I branched out myself. I was interested in tov for sure. But I decided to go a little bit more. Hardcore with Runequest and Symbaroum. I just wanted to see a really good video and you hit it out of the park. ToV especially interests me with Demiplane. I might dabble with it there. Due to ease of use. Thanks for the reply. Keep up the good work. I'm watching Dragonbane review as well.
About the spell descriptions being in the spell list. It's worse than that. WotC HAD figured that out. The 3.5 Player's Handbook has one sentence blurbs about what each spell does exactly like Tales of the Valiant does. This means that it's not that WotC hasn't figured out this easy thing, they had it, and intentionally decided to remove it after 3rd Edition.
Oh wow, I had forgotten. I played a decent amount of 3.5 that does indeed make it worse…
Probably a reason for it.
@@eoris12 page count
@@eoris12 Because they suck. 😜
3.5 had spell descriptions in the spell lists too, I have no idea why WotC dropped that for later editions.
Yeah, I had forgotten until someone mentioned it. I’m sure turnover probably had something to do with it, or maybe just poor decision making.
I've bought the Monster Vault for TOV. Definitely an improvement over the Monster Manual. I'll probably be using this as my new default monster book.
Yep, for sure. I thought about going through it, but I’m not sure it has as much appeal. Most likely I’ll cover it with the dungeon master’s guide comes out, which I am very much looking forward to.
Loved this review. Tales of the Valiant is looking very polished!
The artwork you showed is amazingly good
Yeah, some really great artwork! A few slipped through the cracks, but overall I really like it.
"why would they not do what fans want?" brother you said it all
My biggest issues with ToV were only two subclasses per class (Cleric gets three) and how it didn't push the envelope a bit more. The first is a problem that I see being fixed with more material. The latter is just inclination. I'm rooting for the Kobolds. Good video, my first. I'll be sure to check out more.
It shouldn't be too hard to port in subclasses from other 5e-like systems. I love mah Hexblades, they'll be in my ToV game.
I agree on both points. Would have liked to see a handful of other things added in as well.
@@Wiccad While true, I'm a johnny come lately with 5e. I was doing Pathfinder 1e until I saw the 5e players handbook for 30% off. Even then I didn't just buy in overnight. It was a long time selling me. I simply don't have a lot to port in. With that, I'm sure the kobolds will build it up over time.
@@homebrewedtabletop Yeah, I'm liking what I'm seeing overall, I just want more options. Anything in particular you were interested in?
I couldn't have said it better myself (and I tried a few weeks ago). Hahaha. Excellent video! 🏴
Oh hey man! I think I’ve seen some of your videos. And I appreciate it, I put a decent amount of time into it, and even scrapped my first attempt. Lol. So glad the final product was worth it.
Not sure if you discord, I just see your website, but drop by and say hello sometime.
Well Played to Kobold Press!
Its good to see some innovation and though I haven't been following their work closely, I do respect their approach and the things they come up with. I will be paying closer attention.
Though 5e has been good, they have not fixed issues with their game for YEARS. Additionally my first impression of the 2024 PH seems to be simple fixes we have homebrewed for years with a bit of power creep... I hope I'm wrong but we will see.
Its good to see groups like ToV, MCDM and DC20 innovating and providing competition!
From what I saw, the subclasses are limited however Kobold Press has released previous content that includes subclasses and, to my understanding, these are compatible with ToV.
Great point, that’s my understanding as well.
sort of. all their old subclasses have 5e14 style progression and need converting. They released a free conversion guide to explain how.
Good summary of ToV. Informative and enjoyable to watch.
Very nice overview
Thanks!
For myself, I will probably buy the 2024 version of D&D, and I think I will play with it as well.
That said, I think the editing and organization of the ToV is great (I especially like that the spell list is accompanied by an overview). And Luck could be incorporated into the current 5e.
Originally, 5e was a modular game. You can play traditional 5e with other 5e-compatible elements mixed in by house rules. Maybe that's how everyone plays...
Will definitely be interesting to see what they do with the 2024 handbook. I’m excited to check it out and review it.
Yeah ToV really could’ve stripped a bunch of vestigial aspects and pushed bigger changes, and I would’ve preferred that a lot. It inherits maybe too much clunk and issues, but there’s some good spice that competes against 5e24 if wanting a different 5E
Yeah, it seems like there are two groups, one wanted continued compatibility but interesting features, and the other wanted something new but familiar. Sounds like you, me and a lot of others are in that latter category.
That might also have been a helpful way to frame it for the video here. Next time I guess.
Heya Homebrewed, I'm a kickstarter backer of ToV myself and recently received my two-book set. So now I'm thinking about when to try to get my group to try out a new system, and I come across your channel (I'm sub'd now) and also find your GURPS 4th Edition review. I've been playing RPGs since the 80s myself, and played the original GURPS, but I had no idea it was still around and being updated. If I'm going to try to convince my group to try something new, now you've got me considering GURPS, too. Could you make a ToV vs GURPS video? :)
Yes, it is DnD 5e, they just added a more streamlined system and added innvoation to the play.
I missed the kickstarter so I can't buy it on my VTT of choice yet :/
Oh bummer. What’s your vet of choice? I’ve been working on some reviews for a few.
@homebrewedtabletop Roll20 cause it's the one I started on and my group plays with.
It’s coming for sure.
are you doing one for the monster vault?
I was more thinking to cover it briefly when the dmg came out. I don’t know that I have a lot of inspired things to say about it is all. And just being like “it’s goody seems lame. lol.
Anything in particular you are interested in that I could look into? Might spark some creativity.
@@homebrewedtabletop it would be cool to see comparison, I love the new TOV dragons
Well, the abandonment of 3.5 by Wotc did lead to Pathafinder and now the OGL Fiasco has led to the 5.0 Revolution
As someone who have been working MONTHS on a methodical way to price magic items, you got me hooked when you said they had a system to price magic items from any game. I paused at that point and saw it... It's almost the same table from 5e with absurd prices ranges. Sure, they also have a small table to price weapons and armor, but still with absurd gaps.
I apologize if I made it seem like more than it is. I just thought it was a nice touch. Definitely not surprised that what you made over 8 months is better though. Would love to check it out if you share it somewhere. All my social are linked in the channel description, give me a ping somewhere if you do, and it’s not too much trouble.
@@homebrewedtabletop lol this took me by surprise. Don't worry, it was just a quick disappointment. I will share a summary of the system now on my twitter ;)
Am I able to play my battle master fighter 5e in ToV?
there us a 5e converision guide, so yes
Yep, I think you can convert basic everything tbh, without too much work. What is too much will of course vary person to person. To me it’s no big deal, but I’m not the average player either. It might be too much for some.
How does ToV improve combat?
Luck mechanic, many of the abilities that I didn’t talk about, such as a bards ability to negate damage via they songs (and ongoing combat effect), feats are far more interesting and useful imo, and the weapons abilities have tactical options.
Probably some more, but that’s a handful. They didn’t do anything crazy as that wasn’t their design goal. Which I think is a major sticking point for a lot of people.
is this book on amazon to buy?
I don’t believe so, but there is a link to their website in the ideo description for you.
I once made a 10 page list of spells with description for another RPG (The Dark Eye, a German thing) because nobody else did.
Oh wow, well I guess it’s not just wotc then. Lol
@@homebrewedtabletop should be a no-brainer.
Especially new players are totally overwhelmed by lists with rather cryptic spell or ability names without any context to them.
But I'm pedantic and can't stop once I started, so I make these lists, or custom character sheets or... 😀
My book gets here Monday. Can't wait
I mean ... 4E vastly changed the spell list and also put the magic items in the PHB. When 3PPs do something new its innovation but when dnd changes things its alienating the fanbase or something.
I think they can take it. They are the biggest and most well known game and company in the space. And have been for decades, as well as having by far the deepest pockets. I don’t think wotc is the victim here.
@@homebrewedtabletop I never said they were. Not even sure how you took that to be my meaning. Just pointing out that there's an irony to what you said on the topic.
I prefer the artstyle of ToV rather than the 2024 previewed WotC version
It’s weird how wotc went with like everyday life scenes. Seems really weird to me. I want to see a character like I’m going to play doing cool things.
The amount of roleplaying is dependent on the game master/dm. There is no need for a special mechanice to relect this. Fourth edition tried to quantify roleplay and it failed. The type of game played is dependent on what the players want and what the gm presents.
The biggest portion of this book, as well as sooooo many others that are like it, is that the 'concepts' they introduce have actually always been a part of the system. Literally, nothing that they add or suggest is new, it is just that so many people who play are looking for a 'rule' that says they can do these things. Many of the older versions of D&D, as well as many of the old school clones, all made (or make it) part of the opening description of the game, that it is encouraged to think outside of the box with character customization/creation. There is little need to spend the money on books like this, when you literally only have to think outside the box and have a discussion with the DM and others at the table. You want an Elf in you game that has wings? Sure, sounds cool. You want to add some bonus or advantage to some roll, if the DM thinks it fits, sure... add it. I can somewhat understand why newer players to D&D feel the need for things like this book, but when you have older players that have been around for a while feeling the need for these 'supplements', I don't get it. Are they useful for an idea for a new player? Certainly. But at the end of the day, old school D&D offered so much more customization for characters and what you could do IN a game, because the rules and descriptions were/are basically left up to the table and the DM when they come up AT the table. Steve the fighter dude wants to jump from the staircase, swing from a chandelier, and then jump into the fight like some demon possessed fighter from some novel he read (or from some TV show he watched)? DM says, sure, make a Dex check... or... damn that sounds cool, just do it. Having 128 different feats to select from is actually restrictive, vs, the rule of cool. Thing is, so many gamers feel like they need an actual rule in a book that they can point to, rather than simply accepting what the DM says is acceptable in the moment. If it is explained by a player in such a way that fits the lore of the game or the way something fits at that moment, the DM will probably agree. If Steve is upset and throwing a tantrum because the DM is not giving him a sentient sword of vorpal destruction that teleports him anywhere in existence 38 times a day, solely because Steve feels he should have said sword... sorry Steve... you are not the DM. Less rules, more rulings, is a true game-changer.
I would say I generally agree with the sentiment of what you’re saying. But at the extreme house ruling everything is a problem. And it’s extremely difficult for the average player or gm to know how to balance homebrewed content. A little is easy, and works well, a lot is unwieldy and too much work. That’s why having rules around all this made by professional game designers is helpful. Which again I think generally agrees with what you are saying above.
GURPS the game I play most suffers from this same issue, but it’s actually which rules to use that is the problem, rather than the homebrew.
@homebrewedtabletop you used the phrase 'balance homebrew'... it should not be about balance, which is part of the problem... it should be about what works. Balance is what has contributed to D&D becoming the mess that it is where there are PCs with massively bloated hit points, pew-pew spells for Magic users, and nearly all characters of a given class almost always going for the same exact look and feel as everyone else. The fact that the older games of D&D and many of the older clones are not balanced... is part of what makes them more customizable. The pursuit of balance has somewhat neutered the game in many ways. Still, people are going to like what they like. Personally, I am just not a fan of a hard set rule for each and every thing because it feels like I am being pigeonholed into some bland "everything must be balanced" kind of soup. Lastly, these types of books and their content, are basically someone else's version of a 'homebrewed houserule'... but it's more acceptable to most because it has some professional distribution company behind it or some well known logo stamped on it. Whether it is in a pdf, notes on a napkin, collaborative discussion at a table, or between the covers of a nice hardback with amazing artwork throughout... homebrew is homebrew.
@@keithmathews4605 Hard disagree. When I first got into ttrpg's, we tried Rifts. Power Creep out the wazoo there. Balance? Hah! My GF played a shapeshifter. My pal played a low level speedster. I basically played Superman. I had over 400 HP to start, and the mega HP where it took mega damage to hurt me. I had like a 42 supernatural strength. We played Rifts exactly one time. It was so unbalanced nobody had fun. While I do agree in thinking outside the box, a rules baseline is a great thing.
@@RisingBean I am not understanding why you are trying to take what I was talking about with older D&D to somehow mean I was including Rifts. Rifts has a massive power creep. It is literally player characters with no powers to speak of, along side of characters with power armor, lasers, magic, psionics, gladiators, tanks, aliens, and everything else, to include the kitchen sink. They are not the same. Well, unless you consider that they are in the fantasy realm... and even then... that is a huge stretch. Rifts is not D&D. What I am talking about is older D&D where the rulings OVER rules is a much better experience. Again, Rifts is a really poor comparison.
@@keithmathews4605 Rifts was just my example in action. I think any game D&D, Rifts, Gurps, Mutants and Masterminds, ToV, etc need a framework to work. They need balance. Otherwise you get the "Rifts experience" where players talk to the GM into all sorts of shenanigans. Do I think rulesets need to tell you every single thing you can do? No. But they should cover the basics. I actually think 5e does that better than 3e. It's a bit more hands off, let the GM decide.
I disagree with you that D&D hasn't changed in 40 years. The game massively shifted between the TSR AD&D era to 3rd edition. Then again to 4th edition (which many players said changed so much that they don't count it as "D&D.") And then again to 5e.
I'm also no fan of WotC, but let's be honest in our criticisms.
I was speaking more about innovation than simply changing things.
They needed those systems to be different enough that players had to purchase the new version. And good enough that players wanted to. I think even WOTC would agree they failed that with 4e.
One of my disappointments with ToV so far is they didn't fix Monk. WotC did a much better job in the last playtest version of the Monk, so if I were to run a ToV game, I'd use the UA Monk.
Oh that’s interesting. What sticks out to you on them? Sounds like you have some insight I might be lacking.
@@homebrewedtabletop The TOTV monk just gets a lot fewer new toys than other Martial classes,
@@homebrewedtabletop Without reworking it, there are three things I would patch on the ToV Monk:
1) Increase the martial arts die one step.- d6, d8, d10,d12.
2) Give the monk additional ki points equal to their WIS modifier.
3) Dash or disengage doesn't cost ki points. Doubling jump distance still does.
I have had no problem with race or species. There is nothing wrong with this terminology. A human is very different from an elf, a halfling, a gnome, etc. They are seperate than human. It's not bad, its' not evil, it's just different.
Seems like this is the best option for people who would like to keep buying 5E products but don't want to support WotC.
100% and it’s nice that it’s not a mixed bag. For that group, it’s a no brainer.
DC20 though??
I’m working towards it!
Got a daggerheart game going for that review first. I try to go for quality over quantity though (play test and all that), so it will be a bit.
Failing attack rolls build character!
No competition for D&D? I get that the network effect is a hell of a drug, but if you genuinely believe that, are you are more blind and Stevie Wonder.
It’s not a question of competition existing, which I think is your point, it’s a matter of other games actually threatening to draw a significant number of players away the later here being my point.
With the unspoken part being the ogl fiasco.