The thing I love about the Green Arrow/Batman similarities is how a lot of of modern depictions will straight-up acknowledge the connections. For example, when the Arrowverse first mentioned Batman's existence in that universe, Ollie got super pissed off and defensive, being like "Hey, I did the whole dark vigilante thing first!"
I don't know if I agree. Originally Darkwing was supposed to be Double 0 Duck, but because of the success of the Batman movie he became what we know today.
It's pretty clear cut that the Shadow is the direct inspiration for Batman. In fact the very first Batman story is taken whole cloth from the Shadow story "Partners of Peril", artwork from that story was even used for the first Batman comic. Also notable is that the Shadow is described as appearing bat-like several times in the story. More fun facts, the Shadow was referred to as The Knight of Darkness long before Batman was the Dark Knight. Special mention for Doc Savage and his utility vest. More can be said about the Man if Bronze and his Fortress of Solitude later. Special mention for the Phantom, general costume inspiration as well as tragic backstory inspiration. Street & Smith, the publishers of the Shadow, did not mind creating their own copycats. One such character was the Whisperer aka Police Commisioner James "Wildcat" Gordon. The Whisperer's solo magazine did not last long but stories continued in the back up pages of THE SHADOW MAGAZINE. Even more fun facts -- the same month Batman debuted in comics a pulp magazine publisher debuted their own bat-themed copycat of the Shadow called the Black Bat. One more thing, the whole rich guy secretly being a hero thing is the creation of Baroness Orczy, I like to think of her as the godmother of super hero stories, Baroness Orczy created the Scarlet Pimpernel
I started reading comics in the 60s (so yeah, old,) and I remember when Green Arrow went from rich playboy to broke champion of the people, and I thought (think) it was brilliant. And I remember a later story where-in a rich guy had bought the Queen mansion, and discovered the cave. He threatened to tell Oliver Queen's, I'll tell people you're... BATMAN! (he saw the cave, and came to the wrong conclusion) It was a great story. As always thank you so very much for the videos.
Personally I enjoy the rich Green Arrow. I like the fantasy escape of imagining what life would be like if you got to be super rich and a cool superhero
So was the Green Arrow stuff still in the cave when the guy bought the mansion or was it just a big blank cave that the guy discovered? Because if Oliver forgot to clean the place out first, what an idiot 😂
@@akilbrazier1421No, the GA stuff was "cleaned-out", which was why the guy thought it was the Batcave, and Queen had been going from there to nearby city Gotham to be Batman. (As near as I recall from over fifty years ago (never trust memory).)
I'm surprised you didn't mention the CW Green Arrow. Everything to do with the League of Shadows and Ra's Al Ghul, it was so painfully obvious they wanted to do Batman, but didn't have the rights. Also the tone of the show was very much Batman.
Yea and Oliver was even dark and brooding behind closed doors but put on a playboy act for the public to divert people away from learning his identity….. just like Batman lol
Omni man Homelander Shazam Black Adam Ikaris eternals Sentry Hyperion All might Goku Icon The Samaritan from Astro City Blue marvel Captain marvel Mr majestic Martian man hunter Saitama Superman is also my favorite superhero !!!
@jonathanchila6414 Until they can't. And DD, as bilnd as he is, he is capable of achieving even greater feats than the average human being with his own super human powers and senses. And like Batman, he was also trained as a ninja, and he's considered to be one of the best and greatest martial artists and hand-to-hand combatants in comic book history. And he's a really good lawyer.
@@lanrek.odunlami9470 zorro he was created and I inspired by juaquim mureita a Mexican American who took revenge on the men that raped and killed his wife and family they called him a fox because he got away and rode black horse and black poncho history doesn’t tell you that
Well Knuckle duster is apparently the Batman of My Hero Academia According to the Vigilante Manga of course the only similarities that I saw between Batman and Knuckle Duster is there both Vigilantes without superpowers
Great summary. You nailed all points. I knw there still more out there. Id like to mention two. The obscure Fox, from Dark Horse comics, i think, and the Green Hornet. That was so obvious, they even squared off in the campy Batman tv show.
Other honourable mentions would be Black Noir from The Boys & Darkwing from Invincible, and I guess you could also jokingly say Bartman & Fruit-Batman from the Simpsons
You failed to mention that DWD got a sort of a power from a genie in a back story episode where he wished for the power to appear anywhere at anytime in a dramatic fashion. Its why smoke/fog would appear first and then reveal him. Cant believe I remember that. So in this way a little more like The Shadow.
Batman appeared in one of the Spider’s pulp novels years earlier (as a villain) and shares many similarities to the Spider both in and out of costume (the Shadow comparisons always annoy me).
I would mention Daredevil. He has a lot elements that came from Batman. His motivarion came from the death of his father; the uniform in order to input fear in the heart of the criminals; more a vigilant than a heroe...never laugh...
Ted Kord's Blue Beetle not being on the list is a big miss. You mentioned him when talking about Night Owl, but Kord's Blue Beetle has a lot in common with Batman. There's also Hanna Barbera's Blue Falcon.
Mr. Scarlet, Firebrand, The Owl, Black Owl, Daredevil (WW2 version), The Clock, Knight Watchman, The Sandman, The Hangman, The Shroud, The Fox, The Black Hood, The Web, The Badger, The Angel (WW2)
Not to mentioned Green Arrow at one point in the gold en age operate from Gotham alongside Bats, If I recall correctly similar to how Solomon Grundy now is considered a Superman Vilain but started as a Batman villain.
Iron Man (first appeared in 1963) is the biggest ripoff of Batman (1939). Batman and Ironman are both wealthy individuals who use their resources and intellect to fight crime. They both rely on technology and have alter egos as billionaires. Seriously, if Batman were to start using an armor like Iron Man's, there wouldn't be any difference between them. Marvel sure likes plagiarizing DC.
Man, Midnighter didn't get nearly the screen time he deserves. I'm sure they're going to cock him up, but I couldn't help being excited hearing about The Authority getting at least some attention.
@@CarlzyTV a billionaire who uses thec who has a butler Jarvis who apart of a superhero team who has a family of tech heroes(war machine,rescue,spider man)and apart of the elite super heroes team how does that not seem similar to Batman
@justyouraveragegeek548 I guess it's because he's not really a "detective". And as far as I know, Ironman's villains are pretty powerful people, not really a street criminals, and he markets as a genius billionaire playboy philanthropist, not dark character like Batman. Also, Ironman is more tech centric than Batman. Because the power Tony Stark have is his geniusness, his gadget and his armour. But Bruce Wayne has a really good martial art training. I love both of them though
Moon Knight is actually more from The Shadow than Batman (at least until Dixon’s Marc Spector: Moon Knight series). Former merc, believed dead, only to return with new ‘powers,’ uses a cover ID as a wealthy socialite as his primary identity, uses a pilot (instead of a taxi driver), uses cover IDs to stay informed at different levels of society, etc.
Of all Batman-like characters, Spawn is the best one. They both wear dark suits. Glide in the air with their capes. Deal with cops that are against them from time to time. Even have clowns as enemies/villains.
Can you do history of Cyclone, Rhino, Sandman, Chameleon, Scorpion and the Human Fly along with Kurt Connors the Lizard. Also can you do the history of the Flash Villains like Turtle, Magenta, Cobalt Blue, Mirror Master and Top?
Correct me if I'm wrong but Duckwing Duck started the "I am line" before batman. Darkwing duck series came out in 1991 and the Batman animated series came out in 1992. Soo Batman Animated series took Duckwing duck line
Nice vids It would be nice if you have listed the traits on which you based your self at the beginning for a "plus value" and be more engaging with the comment's peoples. Keep on the good work guys!
Lee Falk's 1936 Phantom predates Batman by three years. The original Phantom s parents are killed by pirates, and he swears an oath to combat piracy and evildoers in general. His costume is similar, and he has his Skull cave. More than a few people think that Batman is a Phantom knockoff. Also, the Watchmen are based on the Charleton comic book characters which DC acquired when they went out of business. In that universe Blue Beetle was the Batman knockoff and Captain Atom was the Superman knockoff.
Talk about copycats…for being one of the most successful superhero characters, Batman has more alternate versions of himself than all others combined. It’s really kind of ridiculous.
Sad no mention of Knuckleduster and Captain Celebrity from MHA Vigilantes, two heroes who mentor the protagonist and are representation of Batman and Superman.
Who is your favorite Batman Copycat?
Wow!
Nice.
Midnighter!
Moon Knight, Midnighter, Nemesis, Nighthawk
Moon Knight 🌙
I really like how in the Arrow CW series they call the Arrow Cave "Bunker" which sounds way better and original
The quiver would be more fun
@@asdasasdas3476 Yeah Harley was incredibly correct on that one!
Yeah
The thing I love about the Green Arrow/Batman similarities is how a lot of of modern depictions will straight-up acknowledge the connections. For example, when the Arrowverse first mentioned Batman's existence in that universe, Ollie got super pissed off and defensive, being like "Hey, I did the whole dark vigilante thing first!"
I mean in the arrowverse he kinda did
@@KadeStringer2.0Not really, CW Oliver Queen began his career in 2012 as the Hood while Bats was already a known vigilante a decade earlier.
The show, “Gotham” shows Bruce being a crime fighter at 15 but doesnt yet have the Batsuit. Oliver was still in the city before being stranded.
@@InvokedAlbaz That's a different continuity though
In all fairness, Darkwing Duck is more of a rip off of The Shadow.
Yep. Even his design was based on him.
I was going to say thay too.
Technically Batman is a ripoff of The Shadow
Umm... No...
I don't know if I agree. Originally Darkwing was supposed to be Double 0 Duck, but because of the success of the Batman movie he became what we know today.
Batman: Let's get nuts!
Darkwing Duck: Let's get dangerous!
I was about to say the same thing.
It's pretty clear cut that the Shadow is the direct inspiration for Batman. In fact the very first Batman story is taken whole cloth from the Shadow story "Partners of Peril", artwork from that story was even used for the first Batman comic. Also notable is that the Shadow is described as appearing bat-like several times in the story. More fun facts, the Shadow was referred to as The Knight of Darkness long before Batman was the Dark Knight.
Special mention for Doc Savage and his utility vest. More can be said about the Man if Bronze and his Fortress of Solitude later.
Special mention for the Phantom, general costume inspiration as well as tragic backstory inspiration.
Street & Smith, the publishers of the Shadow, did not mind creating their own copycats. One such character was the Whisperer aka Police Commisioner James "Wildcat" Gordon. The Whisperer's solo magazine did not last long but stories continued in the back up pages of THE SHADOW MAGAZINE.
Even more fun facts -- the same month Batman debuted in comics a pulp magazine publisher debuted their own bat-themed copycat of the Shadow called the Black Bat.
One more thing, the whole rich guy secretly being a hero thing is the creation of Baroness Orczy, I like to think of her as the godmother of super hero stories, Baroness Orczy created the Scarlet Pimpernel
That’s really cool
I started reading comics in the 60s (so yeah, old,) and I remember when Green Arrow went from rich playboy to broke champion of the people, and I thought (think) it was brilliant. And I remember a later story where-in a rich guy had bought the Queen mansion, and discovered the cave. He threatened to tell Oliver Queen's, I'll tell people you're... BATMAN! (he saw the cave, and came to the wrong conclusion) It was a great story.
As always thank you so very much for the videos.
Personally I enjoy the rich Green Arrow. I like the fantasy escape of imagining what life would be like if you got to be super rich and a cool superhero
So was the Green Arrow stuff still in the cave when the guy bought the mansion or was it just a big blank cave that the guy discovered? Because if Oliver forgot to clean the place out first, what an idiot 😂
@@akilbrazier1421No, the GA stuff was "cleaned-out", which was why the guy thought it was the Batcave, and Queen had been going from there to nearby city Gotham to be Batman. (As near as I recall from over fifty years ago (never trust memory).)
I gotta respect how Black Noir swiftly dodged this list lol
He has super powers... Thats why...
I'm surprised you didn't mention the CW Green Arrow. Everything to do with the League of Shadows and Ra's Al Ghul, it was so painfully obvious they wanted to do Batman, but didn't have the rights. Also the tone of the show was very much Batman.
They even create a whole Batfamily, I mean, Arrowfamily for Oliver. It is indeed painfully obvious.
Yea and Oliver was even dark and brooding behind closed doors but put on a playboy act for the public to divert people away from learning his identity….. just like Batman lol
It’s like you guys don’t know anything abt green arrow lmfao
@@zzirfamo24What makes you say that?
You should do a list of Superman copycats and ripoffs if you haven't already
Omni man
Homelander
Shazam
Black Adam
Ikaris eternals
Sentry
Hyperion
All might
Goku
Icon
The Samaritan from Astro City
Blue marvel
Captain marvel
Mr majestic
Martian man hunter
Saitama
Superman is also my favorite superhero !!!
Superman sucks
@@FlexStyleZ everyone has their own opinion but I know he would beat your favorite hero or villain
@@BloodBathhhh idc. wouldn’t make that outdated old relic interesting
Superman was copied directly off of Doc Savage and a number of other pulp characters .
AWA Comics has one. The Knight from a book called Knighted. They didn't even hide it, it was part of the fun of the book.
Daredevil is more of a Batman than Batman. He has no vision and relies on echolocation (almost like a real bat)
Dorkly has a video about heroes with wrong names: Ghost Rider should be Daredevil, Daredevil should be Batman.
And he's one of my top personal favorite Marvel characters.
Bats can see as good as us... They just fly at night so it's dark
@jonathanchila6414 Until they can't.
And DD, as bilnd as he is, he is capable of achieving even greater feats than the average human being with his own super human powers and senses.
And like Batman, he was also trained as a ninja, and he's considered to be one of the best and greatest martial artists and hand-to-hand combatants in comic book history.
And he's a really good lawyer.
So, the similaries end cause DD' actually a working stiff. Imagine, fighting crime all nite then having to do court cases😮
The way you slowed down to put emphasis the first time you said DARK... WING... DUCK... perfect. Just perfect.
And dont forget BLUE FALCON & DINOMUTT! Who actually did a lot of detective work.
He got updated in a Scooby-Doo animated film
Yeah. Pretty good too.
@@johnlawful2272it’s not canon
@@KadeStringer2.0 yeah I thought it was cool it was just a movie about the getting modernized
No, he’s probably more inspiring than Batman like the dark wing duck is actually basically just a parody of Batman
Dark wing is The Shadow parody.
All copy cats of the original which is ZORRO where Batman got his inspiration
THANK YOU!!!! EXACTLY! A ONE TO ONE RIP OFF!
Nice point.
But who came first, Zorro or the Shadow?
@@lanrek.odunlami9470 zorro he was created and I inspired by juaquim mureita a Mexican American who took revenge on the men that raped and killed his wife and family they called him a fox because he got away and rode black horse and black poncho history doesn’t tell you that
@@lanrek.odunlami9470 Zorro came first. Batman is essentially a combination of both of them
@@localhobo5362 Yeah.
Well Knuckle duster is apparently the Batman of My Hero Academia According to the Vigilante Manga of course the only similarities that I saw between Batman and Knuckle Duster is there both Vigilantes without superpowers
I think he's based off frank Miller batman
Brother went from being The Flash to Batman, very cool
Don't forget Catman, He's an Old school rip off of Batman 😸😸😸
@Horopter catman is dc comic character
What about Marvel's Shroud?
@@quentinfogger5755Shroud is basically "dark Moon Knight" minus the different personalities.
so ripoff batman @@alessandrobaggi6129
On the fairly oddparents he was played by adam west
Great summary. You nailed all points. I knw there still more out there. Id like to mention two. The obscure Fox, from Dark Horse comics, i think, and the Green Hornet. That was so obvious, they even squared off in the campy Batman tv show.
How about the Confessor-Astro City?
Batman is arguably the greatest character in DC Comics.
Batman is the GOAT 🐐 of DC comics. With only Superman being a close second.
Correction all of comics
Batman and Superman
Very arguably. Has fake feelings, won't kill those who deserve it, somehow can beat one of the strongest people.
In all of comics id say
Great mention of Nemesis! Would love to hear you guys talk about Millarworld more often. Their recent Big Game crossover event was amazing!
Waiting for the edit from Dar Knight to Dark Knight
Darkwing duck: let's get dangerous
Batman: let's get nuts
Prince: let's go crazy
Shadow hawk
Killcat from Erik Larsen's savage dragon deserves an honorable mention
"I am the jailer that throws aways the key" goes so god damn hard
How about Night Thrasher?
Oh yeah, forgot about him
Other honourable mentions would be Black Noir from The Boys & Darkwing from Invincible, and I guess you could also jokingly say Bartman & Fruit-Batman from the Simpsons
Dont forget the batman copycats within dc
watch the vid goofball
Next Moon Knight is gonna end up having a moon cave
4:55 Another one I remember was I am the rat that runs up your trouser leg
Do love that Green Arrow has a sense of humor. And accepts Harleys name suggestion for the Arrow Cave. Yes, Injustice Universe but still..
WAAAAAAAAAY too short. Shadow Hawk, Prometheus.... The list goes ON!
Wait i assumed lets get dangerous was a riff on lets get nuts from Batman 89
Darkwing Duck
Thank you, I'm so tired of the "Moon Knight is a batman copy" narrative. This was awesome, esp the honorable mentions at the end.
Dark wing duck! 🤩
dude done brought up any 90s kid cartoon Darkwing Duck LETS GET DRANGEROUS! I loved that show as a kid lol
I know that you mentioned Darkwing Duck, but what about Darkwing from the Invincible universe?
You failed to mention that DWD got a sort of a power from a genie in a back story episode where he wished for the power to appear anywhere at anytime in a dramatic fashion. Its why smoke/fog would appear first and then reveal him. Cant believe I remember that. So in this way a little more like The Shadow.
Batman appeared in one of the Spider’s pulp novels years earlier (as a villain) and shares many similarities to the Spider both in and out of costume (the Shadow comparisons always annoy me).
To the "Darkwing Duck/Batman" comparison: You missed the fact that they're both insane.
Maybe Green Arrow should change him main vehicle to something like an advance, hight tech plane.
He could even call it the "Arrow-plane"
He already had that.
Here’s an idea for Green Arrow’s own Batwing: The Flying Arrowhead 🏹
Ain't no way Harley just drops a banger name for Ollie's lair. The Quiver
2:37 He also has an Arrowplane as well similar to the Batwing
"I am the terror that flaps in the night! I, am the kid nephew that folds your near mint copy of Detective Comics #10 in half! I- am DARKWING DUCK!"
I would mention Daredevil. He has a lot elements that came from Batman. His motivarion came from the death of his father; the uniform in order to input fear in the heart of the criminals; more a vigilant than a heroe...never laugh...
Imagine if they had named him, “Black Arrow”? Lmfao
Night Hawk isn't just an honorable mansion. He's a litteral copy.
Darkwing duck :Let's get
dangerous
Batman: you wanna get crazy?let's get crazy!
Same energy imo😂
Damn, Arris... you DO NOT age... your beard just gets better!
Space Ghost comes to mind.
The Arthur TV show had....
Dark Bunny
Which was literally the Batman Animated Series in the Arthur TV show. ;)
Ted Kord's Blue Beetle not being on the list is a big miss. You mentioned him when talking about Night Owl, but Kord's Blue Beetle has a lot in common with Batman. There's also Hanna Barbera's Blue Falcon.
I was actually expecting you to list Blue Falcon from Hanna Barbera
Mr. Scarlet, Firebrand, The Owl, Black Owl, Daredevil (WW2 version), The Clock, Knight Watchman, The Sandman, The Hangman, The Shroud, The Fox, The Black Hood, The Web, The Badger, The Angel (WW2)
Oh no you guys forgot owl man! Batman‘s criminal counterpart 😱
Zorro:
Batman even stole the Bat Cave from him.
Ironman lost both parents and he is a billionaire playboy who fights crime with his gadgets. Ironman is basically batman beyond.
forgot owlman, ironman, even blue beetle and he was mentioned in the video!
People be like Iron man ain't a Batman copy!💀🚮
Ah yes, Iron man is my favourite copy cat
Not to mentioned Green Arrow at one point in the gold en age operate from Gotham alongside Bats, If I recall correctly similar to how Solomon Grundy now is considered a Superman Vilain but started as a Batman villain.
Iron Man (first appeared in 1963) is the biggest ripoff of Batman (1939). Batman and Ironman are both wealthy individuals who use their resources and intellect to fight crime. They both rely on technology and have alter egos as billionaires. Seriously, if Batman were to start using an armor like Iron Man's, there wouldn't be any difference between them. Marvel sure likes plagiarizing DC.
I'd also add that superhero persona Donald Duck has.
Hanna Barbera made several copycats of Batman. The most famous was Space Ghost and one of the Herculoids.
Man, Midnighter didn't get nearly the screen time he deserves. I'm sure they're going to cock him up, but I couldn't help being excited hearing about The Authority getting at least some attention.
Another Batman copycat that wasn’t mentioned is Darkwing from Invincible
Why isn’t Iron Man on this list
Bruhh He's Ironman
@@CarlzyTV a billionaire who uses thec who has a butler Jarvis who apart of a superhero team who has a family of tech heroes(war machine,rescue,spider man)and apart of the elite super heroes team how does that not seem similar to Batman
@justyouraveragegeek548 I guess it's because he's not really a "detective". And as far as I know, Ironman's villains are pretty powerful people, not really a street criminals, and he markets as a genius billionaire playboy philanthropist, not dark character like Batman. Also, Ironman is more tech centric than Batman. Because the power Tony Stark have is his geniusness, his gadget and his armour. But Bruce Wayne has a really good martial art training. I love both of them though
I want to see a Movie of Mighty Mouse and Dark Wing Duck !!
What about the new cyborg guy from your variant comic?!
Rest in peace, Akita Toriyama! 🪦
Y'all forget Good Knight
Moon Knight is actually more from The Shadow than Batman (at least until Dixon’s Marc Spector: Moon Knight series).
Former merc, believed dead, only to return with new ‘powers,’ uses a cover ID as a wealthy socialite as his primary identity, uses a pilot (instead of a taxi driver), uses cover IDs to stay informed at different levels of society, etc.
That's a no for Daredevil
Yeah, but Bruce is about 10 or 12 years older than Oliver.😂
Of all Batman-like characters, Spawn is the best one.
They both wear dark suits.
Glide in the air with their capes.
Deal with cops that are against them from time to time.
Even have clowns as enemies/villains.
I'd argue Superman has more copycats than Batman, and yes, I would love to see a video discussing them all
Moonknight isn't just a copycat, his powers, multiple personality disoder is very different
Yup very different. Not to mention fighting styles, and morality aren’t the same either
Happy spring VC!
How about the origins of: The Yankee Clipper ,Mr.Justice and the superhero team The First Line.
Damn I’m not a super fan of comics but, I guess I should have known that the Green Arrow had his own cave let alone an arrow car…
Can you do history of Cyclone, Rhino, Sandman, Chameleon, Scorpion and the Human Fly along with Kurt Connors the Lizard. Also can you do the history of the Flash Villains like Turtle, Magenta, Cobalt Blue, Mirror Master and Top?
Surprised Prometheus wasn't on here
I like to add Roger Corman's The Black Scorpion.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Duckwing Duck started the "I am line" before batman. Darkwing duck series came out in 1991 and the Batman animated series came out in 1992. Soo Batman Animated series took Duckwing duck line
Nice vids
It would be nice if you have listed the traits on which you based your self at the beginning for a "plus value" and be more engaging with the comment's peoples.
Keep on the good work guys!
The closest thing for me to a 'Batman-vibe' comic in the Marvel Universe is Daredevil.
Thank you, I've never understood Moon Knight as a Batman Counterpart. Honestly he's more like Red Hood
I agree with Harley tbh, Ollie should change his hideout's name to The Quiver
Lee Falk's 1936 Phantom predates Batman by three years. The original Phantom s parents are killed by pirates, and he swears an oath to combat piracy and evildoers in general. His costume is similar, and he has his Skull cave. More than a few people think that Batman is a Phantom knockoff. Also, the Watchmen are based on the Charleton comic book characters which DC acquired when they went out of business. In that universe Blue Beetle was the Batman knockoff and Captain Atom was the Superman knockoff.
I would argue Rorschach is more similar to Batman than Night Owl.
Talk about copycats…for being one of the most successful superhero characters, Batman has more alternate versions of himself than all others combined. It’s really kind of ridiculous.
How the hell is it that Darkwing Duck is on this list but the freaking Black Panther isn't?
“Stranger things have happened”
Nope, not with Batman. Yeah they did a team up with the Teenage Mutant Ninja turtles, but not Batman
Dude the entire Batman mythos originated and blatantly stolen from 2 movies the BAT 1926 and the MAN WHO LAUGHS 1928.
What about the Blue falcon?
What about The Masked Mallard from Ducktales? 😂
Dark wing Duck
Sad no mention of Knuckleduster and Captain Celebrity from MHA Vigilantes, two heroes who mentor the protagonist and are representation of Batman and Superman.
Forgot to mention that Speedy dies for GA and Jason dies for Batty