In before someone mentions Wish! Also, Errata: Lightning bolt is, of course 100 feet, and Cone of Cold is a 60 foot cone, Warlock Spells past level 5 can't be upcast! (Mystic Arcanum /= Spell Slots), and Dragon's Breath at 2nd level is 3d6 not 3d8.
Yes! Some of the arcanum are pretty cool for boosts, crown of stars and blade of disaster are fun to throw at people. Also: depending on the situation blade of disaster does a lot less collateral damage than meteor swarm. Depending on the setting and the characters morality your play with, that might be a concern! 😁
Worth Mentioning about Word of Radiance: It only hurts the things you want it to. Sword Burst and Thunder Clap can hurt allies. Making it better, if not any stronger.
Just a small nitpick: Warlocks don't use spell slots at higher spell level, but they have Mystic Arcanum. So 6th level spells and higher for Warlocks can't be upcast. Which means that spells like Circle of Death is not the best 7th level spell for Warlocks, as you say at 43:03 since they can't cast it at 7th level :-)
@@jamesmullen3068 well depends on the build. the common ones of course among all builds is coming from stealth for the 1st attack and if DMs allow you to buy common magic items (spellwrought tattoo: find familiar-which i buy). Here's a level 10 spread of an inflict wounds build i've played: 2 fighter, 6 divine sorc, 2 grave cleric custom lineage: feytouched-dissonant whispers fighting style: superior technique-feinting attack (for advantage and dmg all in 1) metamagic: seeking spell, heighten spell asi: warcaster 1st round bonus action: feinting attack (works on any attack, not just weapon attack) move to melee range action: path to the grave action surge: heightened dissonant whipers (enemy provokes aoo) reaction: upcasted level 4 inflict wounds that's (6d10 + 1d6) x2 for the inflict wounds. 83.5 burst dmg on average for round 1. i can use favored of the gods and/or seeking spell in case i miss even with advantage. so yes i hit on that big bomb 100% of the time. for further rounds, i can still rely on seeking spell or favored of the gods (if unusued) then now my familiar's help comes into play. if your table doesn't allow buying common magic items, then we can either stick with the options above or use a low level control spell at our disposal like maximillian's earthen grasp, hold person, catapult + net, etc to generate advantage.
IMHO : Power word Kill does not actually do damage. It asks if a target has less then 100 has and if they do they die. Temp hit points or effects that let you drop to one point are not really going to work because you just die and don’t take damage or go to 0 hitpoints. So the spell tests for your HP total but does not damage it - it just kills you outright and this does not count (Strictly speaking) as damaging the target.
yup. similar to what sickened radiance does at the 6th save (no hp check needed). it just checks if the creature is alive. if they fail the save, they just die.
Steel Wind Strike would be good option for Nova rounds for future builds. You can choose your targets (you hit all creatures within the cone of cold). They are spell attack rolls for 6d10 (33) force damage, so it can critically hit. For example: 9th level wizard +2 level fighter +3 level assassin rogue can: Choose up to 5 surprised enemy (if one is not surprised, it is not an automatic crit), cast steel wind strike, teleport one's 5 feet, action surge, choose up to 5 enemy again and cast steel wind strike again with all attacks with advantage. If 10 attacks hit, you deal 132 force damage to 5 creatures, or you can deal 66 to 10 weak creatures on average. on a surprise round, per short rest. I envision this as, a person in a tense dinner with their enemy/enemies, needing to attack but act quickly. They cannot harm their friends and other innocent people. So they reach for a silver fork* (a melee weapon worth at least 1 sp) and start the fight with this.
nice. only thing i dont like about steel wind strike is that it comes online too late. this build comes online level 14. most campaigns have ended at that point. otherwise this is a good build for campaigns that start at tier 3. the fork imagery was a cool touch. i'd pick up metamagic adept for subtle spell so you don't give away the casting to start combat. you just instantaneously teleport and stab people with forks.
I viewed it as NOVA spells you could do Turn 1 round 1 of combat. So no set ups. Because you're (virtually) guaranteed to get to take an action on your turn to cast this spell, but you're not guaranteed to be able to cast, for example, inflict wounds on something that someone has ALREADY slapped a Hold ~Creature~ type spell on. And of course rules on bonus action casting prevent any Hex addition to these spells for this hypothetical Round 1 NOVA casting.
While this is true, I also didn't account for the fact that if the target of a non-hit spell makes their save, they will often (not always) take half damage. So yeah, just looking at the dice here.
@@DnDDeepDive yeah i think this was a fair approach. you could have mentioned it though like you did with eldritch blast. overall though i found the vid useful with surprises such as blight.
@@adamkaris not necessarily. hold + atk spell combo builds are common place. all you need is action surge. the hex/spirit shroud combos are generally for eldritch blast. most of the spell atk builds do this combo on turn 1 like my force lightning (transmuted scorching ray) user: 2 fighter, 6 shadow sorc (or any sorc really, i picked shadow sorc for the sith theme), 2 tempest. as long as the enemy is humanoid, it's guaranteed to do 120 dmg on round 1 by himself and then add hound of ill omen dmg. and iirc no humanoid CR 10 and below have more than 120 hp. so it will one-shot. will one shot higher CR humanoids as well. its not hypothetical. you just need fighter.
@@nessesaryschoolthing LOL! Hey, if you can get some small adamantine objects then it might be worth using them with this spell. They could also make critical hits against objects, like doors. 🚪
I was just thinking about this which spell to pick for my wizard as my "go to" burst damage spell, going through all the spells and you come up with this video making it 10 times easier and more enjoyable
I *did* couple a Circle of Land Druid with a Wizard for my first ever team up build - was focused on control and aoe spell damage... th-cam.com/video/3UnCD9uJjQM/w-d-xo.html
I don't understand the discussion of animate objects as nova damage, without a discussion of Conjure animals and other conjuration spells. As long as you don't have a trolling DM, the spells essentially do the same thing, add new allies to the initiative order under your (bonus action) command. Neither really are 'nova damage'. Both do damage on a different turn, the object/animals turn, which is also why spirit guardians was removed.
Ha ha - I had a segment of the video where I talked about why I wasn't including other "conjure/summon" type spells but ended up deleting it :). My reasoning is, essentially: 1 - I already discussed them in the "Sustained DPR" video, 2 - many of them will depend so heavily on what creature gets summoned that it's too difficult to crunch the numbers (and most tables, I believe, have the DM choosing the summoned creature), 3 - outside of the Shepherd, they're not doing magical damage, and 4 - playing with 8-32 additional creatures in combat presents a lot of other problems for your table similar to what I discussed in the Necromancer video with slowed combat, not enough space, etc. etc. That said, depending on your table and build, of course, it can be incredibly powerful - there's a Shepherd Druid episode coming here some day...
If you are going to mention animate objects at 5th level in the single target section, might as well mention conjure animals for druid's 3rd level spells or upcast. 8 elk charge up to 24d6+24 (108 avg) 8 velociraptors attack with pack tactics up to 8d4+8d6+32 (80 avg) Every 2 level upcast it gets up to +8 beasts, 5th lvl up to 16, 7th lvl up to 24, 9th lvl up to 32. They can do magical damage with shepherd subclass and although squishy as long as they get off one burst attack it's worth it, not to mention mobility control of enemy position with opportunity attacks. Yet another edit: each elk charge hit forces the enemy to do a strength save or be knocked prone.
Ha ha - I had a segment of the video where I talked about why I wasn't including other "conjure/summon" type spells but ended up deleting it :). My reasoning is, essentially: 1 - I already discussed them in the "Sustained DPR" video, 2 - many of them will depend so heavily on what creature gets summoned that it's too difficult to crunch the numbers (and most tables, I believe, have the DM choosing the summoned creature), 3 - outside of the Shepherd, they're not doing magical damage, and 4 - playing with 8-32 additional creatures in combat presents a lot of *other* problems for your table similar to what I discussed in the Necromancer video with slowed combat, not enough space, etc. etc. That said, depending on your table and build, of course, it can be incredibly powerful - there's a Shepherd Druid episode coming here some day...
@@DnDDeepDive Ah, so far I haven't really had any problem with it other than the DM not being sure how to balance it or making party members feel weak, the second being the reason I don't play it much.
@@gmstag9686 while i have a problem using it at my table since my DM plays it RAW and picks the weakest options. thank god for giant insect and the new tasha's spells. and this is colby's point for not including. it varies from table to table. too much variance.
@@DnDDeepDive This is true but I feel like if you’re just looking at numbers, it would have been more accurate to at least include it in the conversation anyway, especially because you included Animate Objects.
Small detail, but I like nitpicking: if I am not mistaken, Scorching Ray improves by 2d6 for each level, which would make it 12d6 damage at level 5, for an average of 42, which would put it above blight :) Anyway, great video! Love that kind of content!
Looking at the spreadsheet, it was funny to see that Paladin at every level (1-4) had Smite listed as the best "spell." I would be curious to see a breakdown of the best actual paladin spells at each level, though, just because as a Paladin you can double up smite spells and smites. Most of them don't actually upcast well, and they're all a lower damage die than smite itself, but it's still a way to stack even more damage on a single hit.
I have an incredibly powerful spell combo. I have an 11th level character. Bladesinger 9/fighter 2. I upcast hold person to 4th level and lock down 3 targets (hopefully). Then I cast steel wind strike which has been confirmed by JC that you're considered within 5ft of each target as the attacks are made. So the 3 held targets you have advantage to hit as well as a guaranteed crit. This means that against the 3 targets that are held you're doing 12d10 force damage, and the other 2 targets are taking 6d10 force damage. It comes to 66 average damage to each crit target and 33 average damage to each regular target. For a total of 264 damage on average (this is assuming everything hits and there are 5 targets to hit). This all works because I have action surge from being a fighter so I can do it all in 1 round.
Honorable mention to Magnify Gravity from the Wizards Spell list from Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, scales the same as Shatter, except it starts at Spell Level 1. Has additional controlling effects. And uses Force damage which is less often resisted than Thunder damage.
Thanks for the work on this mate. Just watched treant"s vid on blast spells so it was perfect timing. Really helps me see how the designers bend the meta.
Thank you, great post! 🎯 re your conclusions, AoE spells > single target (interesting re Disintegrate). Also, saving throws and spell resistances matter, as do spell vulnerabilities
Important note on 3rd level spell slots for Wizard and Sorcerer: Upcasting Scorching Ray actually gives you the same 8d6, but with more chances to miss. Technically chances to crit, as well, but I know that's not part of the analysis.
As a main sorcerer i loved this analysis! Plz do more! MORE MORE MORE! Ps: a good thing to observe is the dmg with the respected save applied (each save has a medium % chance, so for example a Magic missile would end up doing more single dmg on the 1st lvl)
actually magic missile would still fall behind catapult's sheer dmg at 1st level. catapult averages about 20.5 dmg. This assumes you are using acid flask instead of something else like nets or caltrops for some sort of control. over a 2 round casting of catapult. 1 fail, 1 success, it would deal 20.5. a magic missile over 2 rounds would deal 8.5 per round which sums up to 17 dmg in 2 rounds. now this is a very conservative estimate for catapult. its possible that they fail twice. and since the dmg is high, it'll one-shot kill anything at those CRs.
@@SammaelVanir ah without the % of missing for 1 round. I meant that for over 2 rounds with 50% chance to miss (which is conservative.) Assuming 50% chance of fail that's still 10.25 average dmg vs. 8.5 dmg from magic missile. And yes catapult is great with throwable items like nets, caltrops, oil, acid flasks, ball bearings, alchemist's fire and holy water.
This was great. Maybe I missed it in your spreadsheet, but how did you handle: save = half damage vs. save = no damage save vs. to hit vs. always hit Since those will greatly impact the actual average damage for single target.
I don't handle it *at all* :) - I appreciate the importance, but just didn't have the time to try and calculate for those things (though I spend a lot of time calculating for them in the actual character builds). Here we're just talking raw numbers without (uncharacteristically, for me) taking into account likelihood of hitting/resisting.
As I listen through the video, especially at higher level spell slots, it has reinforced to me that there are so many good things you can do with your spell slots than just blast.
imo if you can assure a kill of the bbeg with a blast spell then blast spells are better. otherwise, yeah there are better things to do once you hit 6th-9th.
@@TheRobversion1 yeah, but I think there is a design or balance issue if you can one shot a bbeg. Like I do think having damage in your kit as a full spellcaster makes sense but not exclusively
@@I4MWH014M actually there isn't. people one-shot bbeg with attacks or spells because they find synergies with spells or class abilities. it's not easy as picking a single spell or attacking "normally." and even JC said that combat was meant to be quick.
@@TheRobversion1 I hear you that synergies exist and people find them and that can make combat short but my understanding of bbeg is the final boss of a campaign, so the DM should have an idea of those synergies by the time the party gets there and one round (which is the amount of rounds "one shot" implies to me) is different than 3 rounds for the final combat and I think 3 rounds is fairly quick.
@@I4MWH014M ah just a terminology difference. the BBEG i meant is not the final boss of the campaign but basically who's the most challenging enemy in any combat encounter. you can think of it in terms of boss, general, etc. for the final boss fight, yeah i agree 3 rounds is short. at my own table it takes about 4-6. but yeah most combat encounters take about 1-3.
Assuming a 50% success rate on dex saves to take 1/2 damage: 0.75*40*(6+1)/2=105 for Meteor Swarm. If we take a level of Tempest Cleric and use Transmute Spell to turn the damage type to lightning or thunder, we get .75*(20*(6+1)/2+20*6)=142.5. Now, if we would go Tempest Cleric and take Metamagic Adapt instead, we could use two charges of our Channel Divinity and Quickened Spell to cast Call Lightning at 9th level using a bonus action, then use our action to activate the spell's effect to do a total of 0.75*2*9*10=135, which is nearly as much as Meteor Swarm.
Just remember we need 2 levels of Tempest Cleric to get their Channel Divinity :). And we could only transmute 1/2 of Meteor Swarm, I believe, as half is fire and half is bludgeoning. And of course, a big part of the draw for Meteor Swarm is its massive area, but against a couple of targets standing close together, yeah, Call Lightning can be strong in the right circumstances.
I think you might want to account for the average armour class/ saving throws of enemies, to make a deep dive model for these spells. There's a useful spreadsheet for this floating somewhere on Reddit
Assuming a 60% for your enemy to fail the save (I'm not sure if that's generous or conservative), and the same chance for hitting.. Without including additional damage from crits (It's negligible for level 1 spells) Inflict Wounds - 15 x 0.6 = 9.5 Catapult - 13.5 x 0.6 = 8.4 Magic Missile - 7.5+3 = 10.5 You have been undone, Mr Deep Dive! Magic Missile wins!
lol. First off, 1d10 on average is 5.5, so 3d10 would be 16.5. Times 60% 9.9 damage ;). From there, of course it all depends on the enemy you're fighting! Assuming you're casting these as a level 1 spell, let's assume you're fighting a CR 1 enemy. The average AC of a CR 1 enemy in the Monster Manual is a 13. Assuming we started with a 16 Wisdom, we'd have a +5 to hit with our Inflict Wounds. 3d10 at a +5 to hit against a 13 AC is 11.55 damage on average. Once you hit 15 AC you're better off with Magic Missile ;). As for Catapult, the average Dex save of a CR 1 Monster is the MM is +2. Our DC with a 16 in our caster stat would be 13. So 3d8 vs. a +2 to save with a 13 DC is only 6.75 damage on average (since they don't take half damage on a save). So in that case, yes, our Wiz and Sorc would be better off using Magic Missile. If the target had a +0 to save (Brown Bear, Duergar, Half-Ogre, etc.), or if we somehow had an 18 Casting stat (by rolling or starting Custom Lineage and taking a half feat, for example), and they only had a +1 to Dex save (Dryad, Giant Toad, Hippogryph, etc.) then Catapult would be better :P.
@@DnDDeepDive take note catapult's dmg in practice is generally higher than 3d8 at level 1 if it's a spell relied on by the player. they would usually catapult something that breaks once it hits the target and contains something damaging to the target like a flask of acid which adds another 2d6 to that dmg.
i think assuming it's 60% is a low # especially as you gain in levels (more proficiency bonus, magical items that increase in accuracy/dc, ways to cause disadvantage for saves/penalty to saves, ways to boost accuracy/reroll misses). magic missile gets none of these benefits. so a player who knows what they are doing with inflict wounds and catapult will actually do more dmg as the level goes up. and even at level 1, i'd say 70% is a more balanced amount for hit/failed save. for reference, at level 10 my upcasted scorching ray has an 88% hit rate on 5 attacks vs. ac 18. so i miss 1 ray at most. and with that miss i can simply seeking spell reroll it to most likely a hit. as colby said, saves and ac's are lower for low CR creatures.
Great video as always. Just got one thing to say at the end you compared disintegrate to melee damage and said that with arcane recovery you could possibly do it twice a day. However arcane recovery can't regain spellslots of 6th lvl or above. Didn't realize clerics only get inflict wounds to do top damage
you forgot about the damage caused by the object that is catapulted. At 2nd level you can launch 10 lb items like siege weapons. a canister siege weapon holds 10 Alchemist's Fire/acid/etc flasks.
On catapult: I'm pretty sure it evades resistance to Nonmagical attacks because it's not technically an attack. It's a saving throw. Every creature in the MM with Nonmagical BPS resistance specifics "Nonmagical attacks." Things like animate objects are attacks made by Nonmagical objects animated by magic. But things like catapult and conjure volley, though they involve Nonmagical objects, aren't attacks and should probably avoid the resistances in stat blocks.
I just had a thought. If you cast animate objects on something on fire could you use it to catch enemies or objects on fire. Similarly if you animate vials of acid, could you have the vials release the acid upon destruction? 🤔
acid flasks should work. something on fire though would depend. 5e has specific wordings of what can ignite or what can simply cause fire dmg. this would need DM fiat.
Have you ever made a healer build here? If not, check out the Druid Circle of Stars + Life Cleric 1. Namely featuring Aura of Vitality with the Dragon form Wild Shape
you mentioned bard could take anyone's at lvl 10, but didnt mention if it effects anything, does taking destructive wave make that the strongest 5th lvl spell for bard (or in general really, is there a better 5th lvl blaster?)
Dissonant Whispers question. If you're swallowed and cast it on the monster that swallowed you, does the monster move, spending it's reaction, randomly, or not move but spend it's reaction?
the monster moves (spending its reaction) after regurgitating you while making sure to avoid any visible threatening environment as it moves away (like a wall of fire).
Clerics seem really weak when you get to higher levels, but through level 5 they take the cake. At 5th level they are beat out by the Fireball spell, but wait... Light Clerics get it anyways. Most games don't get to high levels anyhow.
I would liked series of high vs highest upscaled spells per class. That way half-casters could have a short episode. Maybe even a slightly easier week for u
Finally! How long was this delayed? 7 months? Lol. Been waiting for this for a long time. :) anyway i'll enumerate here some spells which i think deserve honorable mentions due to certain rule interactions: 1st-normal magic missile. works very well with hexblade's curse and empowered evocation to deal alot of dmg single target wise due to the single die roll and no save/atk roll aspect of the spell. 1st-dissonant whispers allows you and other melee party members to get a free aOO nd combo's well with warcaster to let you cast another single target spell . 2nd/cantrip-scorching ray/eldritch blast works very well with hexblade's curse, hex, spirit shroud, etc. since it's multiple attacks it racks up more dmg than other single target spells when you add on-hit dmg effects.
@@DnDDeepDive yeah but you followed through on that promise so kudos bro. oh and kudos for the 3-1 lead vs. ja and the grizzlies. glad to see mitchell back and doing well. anyway i also want to commend the format you are presenting the burst dmg spells this time. i agree this is more useful/easier to refer to, especially with all the multiclassing that i do.
@@TheRobversion1 Glad you enjoyed! Yeah, I promised my friends after Game 1 that we'd win the next 4. Here's hoping my prophecy comes true :). Good luck upsetting the Nets - there's no team I want to lose more!
@@DnDDeepDive its going to be tough. We lost 2 more starters to injury. Resigned to already looking forward to next year and becoming a bucks fan the next few weeks (at least they wear green) and cheering for them to take out the nets.
L4 Vitriolic Sphere will be more than Blight if over 62% fail chance or 62% of the creatures fail their save, a big chunk of that damage will come after the failed creatures get finish their next turn though. And then it continues to scale better when upcasted than Blight.
If a cleric is going to be upcasting Inflict Wounds with their higher spell slots, is that a good use of True Strike? Or is the dpr trade off too drastic?
Hmmm... hard to justify I think. Maybe if you could prep it before the fight starts? Then if no fight breaks out, nothing lost as it's a cantrip, but if it does, you can open with advantage...
Two quick questions. Did you purposely exclude Hellish Rebuke for warlock for single target at 1st level, this is 2d10 that scales? And secondly Warlocks cannot upcast beyond 5th level spell slots, this is where the mystic arcanum feature comes into play from 6th-9th level spells. Did I miss something here?
@@collinkelch7764 Right - the problem with Hellish Rebuke is that it requires me to get hit first, and I'm not sure that I *will* be - especially if I'm playing a blaster type character who's trying to quickly take out an enemy or group of enemies from range early in the fight :).
I think an interesting video, maybe by class, would be "maximizing efficiency of spell slots." The idea would be to combine this video with the other spells these classes can cast to say "cast this at this level and don't bother upcasting, just cast this other spell instead." Does that make sense? I dunno. Just an idea.
I know you're saying "DAMAGE" but technically sleep does damage, although not really. Nice little story about that; my party and I were fighting some griffins. A stray griffin landed in front of my mage in an attempt to murder him. I desperately casted sleep, knocked it out cold. Sold it for a heafty sum in the next city. I don't want to talk about the walk, I SAID I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT!
I’d like to revisit the unsung hero of 1st level spells: magic missile. When we compare it to other single-target spells *and factor in miss chance* it actually comes out on top most of the time. That is, unless your attack bonus or spell save DC is exceptionally high, or the target has a pitiful AC or terrible saving throw bonus (or, more likely, a penalty), magic missile will do more damage in the long run over many castings. For comparison, if we take the 10.5 average damage of magic missile and the 13.5 average damage of catapult/chromatic orb, we find that magic missile does 77% of the damage of the other spells. However, magic missile hits all the time - or nearly so. The only times it fails will be against creatures with immunity to force damage and those with the shield spell, both of which are highly unusual. Catapult and chromatic orb both require an attack roll and, since the D20 progresses in increments of 5%, need an 80% hit chance to exceed the average damage of magic missile. Thus, your spell attack bonus vs. the target’s AC needs to hit on a roll of 5 or greater. If we consider a low-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence, that means an enemy with AC 10. If we min/max properly and start with an 18 Intelligence (and let’s be honest, if you’re watching this channel, you probably will), it raises the break-point AC to 11. So, against a target with an AC that requires an attack roll greater than 4 or 5 (AC 10 or 11 at lower levels), it will be better to use magic missile. For instance, if we have an enemy with AC 13 against a wizard with a +6 spell attack bonus, the wizard needs to roll a 7 or better on the D20 and will hit 70% of the time with catapult or chromatic orb. That puts the average damage output of those spells at 9.45 per casting, well below the 10.5 average of magic missile. This actually continues when we move to 2nd level spells, too. The average damage of an upcast 2nd level magic missile is exactly 2/3 that of scorching ray, so you need to hit more than 66% of the time for scorching ray to be the better option. That means you need to hit the target on a roll of 7 or better on a D20 for scorching ray to produce more damage over the long haul. As an example, consider a group fighting off a band of marauding gnolls. Over multiple battles, the two wizards in the party cast 20 spells with 2nd level spell slots, one using magic missile, the other scorching ray. Both wizards have a +6 spell attack modifier. The first wizard using magic missile inflicts the expected average of 280 total damage to the enemy. The second wizard makes 60 attack rolls over the course of the battles against the gnolls. With their AC of 15, the wizard needs to roll a 9 on the D20 to hit. So, 40% of the attack rolls miss, while 60% hit, for a total of 36 hits. Over many, many die rolls, the damage averages out to the normal 7 points per hit for a total of 252. And, while we could also add an additional 5%, we’ll say 14, damage to total for the wizard casting scorching ray thanks to critical hits, the total damage still doesn’t equal that of the wizard using magic missile. Plus, if the enemy uses cover, drops prone, takes the Dodge action, or has some other way of increasing AC, that wizard’s damage output diminishes significantly, while the other wizard continues to inflict the same damage. While we could continue analyzing how the single-target spells shake out (Arcana domain clerics have both magic missile and inflict wounds!), this post is already long enough as it is. Please let me know if I made any mistakes, post them in the comments, and help Colby’s channel have loads of activity that pushes it to the top of TH-cam. Happy gaming.
a couple of things: 1. catapult doesn't have an attack roll. its a dex save. then you also add whatever the dmg of the breaking object is (such as an additional 2d6 for a vial of acid). so yes this is an all or nothing. but when it does hit the dmg is way higher than a magic missile (3d8 + 2d6). so let's say over the course of 2 rounds an enemy hit with magic missile takes 17 dmg on average. over the course of 2 rounds an enemy gets hit with catapult once and avoids it once. you are still dealing 20.5 dmg on average and divide that over the course of 2 rounds it's better average dmg than magic missile. 2. you are correct with magic missile outscoring scorching ray at those low levels (tier 1). but do note that scorching ray scales better in multiple ways over magic missile: a. upcasting to 3rd level and higher. b. you gaining accuracy increases via advantage (if you're a scorching ray user without an advantage generator you're doing it wrong), magic items from tashas, capping your caster stat or even if you get accuracy bonuses from a party buff like bless. my own scorching ray user hits about 88% of the time (versus AC 18) at tier 2 on 5 rays. so yeah none miss or at most 1 miss (where i simply use a seeking spell metamagic to make it hit). c. the addtional dmg effects you have for increasing magic missile dmg is limited such as hexblade's curse and empowered evocation. scorching ray not only can crit but you also can benefit from the aforementioned hexblade's curse, maximization from destructive wrath (transmute to thunder or lightning) or any other on hit dmg effect like spirit shroud, favored foe, genie's wrath, etc. with that said, i myself have built around magic missile and it's definitely competitive for creating a burst dmg build.
@@TheRobversion1 Thanks Bob! All good points. That'll teach me to work from memory regarding catapult. Ha. We can still determine the point at which you should use magic missile rather than catapult a vial of acid. I didn't bother earlier because we probably won't know the enemy's saving throw bonuses, so we can't be sure when to use it or not. But perhaps you learn the save bonus somehow, in which case it works out well. At 20.5 damage (and 25 gp per shot!), magic missile causes 51% of the damage caused by catapult. So, you need the target to fail 55% of the time, or on a roll of 11 or less. So, subtract 11 from your spell save DC and you'll have the Dex save bonus at which you would be better off using magic missile, instead of catapult and a vial of acid. Thus, if your spell save DC is 14, anyone with a +3 or better Dex save should get hit with magic missile, while anyone with a +2 or worse should get hit with catapult and a vial of acid. And as you said, if you can get advantage or other bonuses, always use catapult, but if the enemy imposes disadvantage or other penalties, blast those magic missiles. I didn't attempt to account for bonuses to attack rolls for scorching ray because there can just as often be penalties, a few of which I listed. That said, if you're working with your team, I certainly believe you're correct and can swing the odds more in your favor with things like bless, Help from a familiar, et al. In my games, every time I remember scorching ray being cast, one of the rays missed. If you can hit AC 18 greater than 85% of the time, that's a +14 to hit, effectively, which is astounding. So yes, if you can achieve those sorts of numbers, definitely go with scorching ray. In one game I'm running, a 3rd level barbarian recently turned an attack roll of 2 into a 15 with his normal bonuses, a bless spell, and the peace cleric's emboldening bond, so those numbers are certainly possible even at low levels without magic items. I wouldn't expect that all the time, or even for every PC, though. And again you're right that I didn't even bother talking about 3rd level spells because magic missile simply won't keep up except in the most edge cases. The focus is really on levels 1 to 4, but can apply at higher levels when you're running low on spell slots. Of course, at 5th level or higher, you might be better off saving the spell slot and using a cantrip. Even though damage output will be higher with a magic missile, it might not be so much higher that it justifies using a spell slot instead of a non-consumable resource. Anyhow, thanks for the correction - I feel properly dumb now. I certainly should have reread the spell description before posting. Lesson learned. Note to everyone: don't be me - read the spell before you post.
@@shamuswilliams agreed on there's certain points as to when magic missile would do better (such as if your DM is stingy with gold or not allowing you to buy equipment). when catapult would do better. as for scorching ray's bonuses, the 88% i mentioned is without any ally help. it's all from my own build. here's how i arrived at it: level 10 spread: 2 fighter, 6 shadow sorcerer, 2 tempest cleric metamagic: transmute spell, seeking spell atk bonus: +4 prof bonus, +4 cha, +2 tasha's magic item (fair at this level since we're at tier 2) for a total of +10. the highest ac of any monster at CR 10 is 18. which means i hit on an 8 at worst, which is a 65% hit rate. however, i'm making each scorching ray attack with advantage (because i action surged a spell like web, hold person, maximillian's earthen grasp, etc) which now bring the hit rate to 88%. then for the odd time that i miss, i can spend 1 sorc point to roll again (which at this time mathematically will add 8% to my hit rate moving it up to 96%, I'd assume the hit at this point). and yes as you stated, with a party's help (bless, emboldening bond, bardic inspiration, etc) that accuracy gets higher and scorching level approaches magic missile's unerring accuracy. with it's superior dmg and more chances to crit it simply pulls ahead. agreed though that i wouldn't expect that for every PC. my build is optimized and is built around scorching ray. an inexperienced player or someone who doesn't optimize will have a different result. as for whether, magic missile is worth the higher spell slot, i say it depends. if your build is built around magic missile and you can kill or come close to killing a high threat target with it then go for it. anytime you swing the action economy your way with a use of a high levelled spell slot is a slot well spent. dont feel bad about the mistake. happens to the best of us and you made good discussion points from it anyway. with all of that said, i just want to prove i'm not a magic missile hater. here's a magic missile build i played and the amount of dmg it does: level 10 spread: 2 fighter, 7 aberrant mind (can be switched for any other sorc or wiz really), 1 hexblade race: custom lineage-feytouched dissonant whispers asi: warcaster tactics: bonus action: hexblade's curse move to enemy action: dissonant whispers 3d6+4 reaction: upcasted 4th level magic missile at 6d4+30 (45 average dmg) *check if enemy is close to dying if no, cast a control spell with action surge. if yes... action surge: upcasted 3rd level magic missile at 5d4+25 (37.5 average dmg) so an average of 97 dmg on round 1 imo is pretty solid for the lowly magic missile. dissonant whispers was cast to remove the enemy's reaction (no shield/no counterspell). the hexblade main version of this build does more dmg but sacrifices having lots of spell slots for other stuff).
Good catch - I think I forgot to look at AOE spells for single target outside of the obvious Fireball/Meteor Swarm. Admittedly, it would only be better by 1.5 average damage, and by 5th level spells Bards would have access to anything else they wanted, but still, at a 4th level spell slot, if you really need every point of damage you can get...
in the #S wise, yes. but in practice no. dissonant whispers is very far ahead of the curve because it generates aoo for you and your melee party members in range. that's just hard to measure because we haven't set a control of whether what you are doing with your opportunity attack (you could be casting another single target spell via warcaster or attacking with a greatsword) and how many melee party members are there
Was some errata as DnD Beyond lists dragon breath as D6 and not D8 which makes it than a not as good burning hands alternative. Sadly as it allows to have a different damage to counter those pesky resistances.
I'm a fool who doesn't know how to slide into DM's so I'm going to put this here. I've been trying to work on a character who can get the most damage mitigation for themselves and the party. So far I've gotten six levels of oath of the Ancients Barbarian and three levels in artillerist artificer for the protector version of the Eldritch Cannon but after that I'm not sure. I was thinking maybe getting gift of the ever-living ones from pact of the chain Warlock but I'm not sure if that works with temporary hit points and that's not really helping damage mitigation for the whole team. Just wondering your thoughts and how you would handle that character concept.
Basically you're working on a tank. You're on right track with ancestral guardians barb. But artillerist doesnt really bring much to the table. Other classes may offer better stuff if you want to play a tank. I'd like to clarify though what exactly you're trying to do. Are you trying to tank or are you just trying to prevent as much dmg to the party as possible? Because if its the 2nd, tank is not the most efficient way to do it. Being a controller and preventing that dmg from occuring in the 1st place instead of taking the dmg and reducing it (tanking) is the better approach.
I've got a similar build on my "to do" list so stay tuned! Until then, feel free to check out some of the other Tank builds I've done to date (Armorer, Wizard Tank, Rogue Tank, etc!)
@@TheRobversion1 the tankiness is a plus but the goal is to reliably give out the bonus hit points with the protector while still being able to give damage reduction if my allies do get hit which I can do with the oath of ancients and the artillerist. plus with the artillerist you're guaranteed some magical weapons and Buffs. I'm just not sure if I should multi-class more or go fully into artillerist for the added damage to the turrets and the extra turret at level 20. but most games don't go to level 20 anyways so I'm trying to find other ways to reliably reduce damage. I mean sure I could go for a a spellcaster but that's not reliable especially if they resist the spell then that's kind of a wasted turn. but every bonus action I can give out bonus hit points and every reaction I can reduce the damage on one of my allies and every attack I do makes it so they have to attack me or they have disadvantage against my allies and reduce damage if they do hit my Ally. Not to mention the bonus hit points is practically doubled on me. I'm there to be annoying and even more so if I go UA Dragonborn and use the flame Cannon with my two breath weapon attacks if there is a multitude of enemies which is all usable while raging.
@@Tybbles ok so if i'm getting this correctly, the role you want to play is a support/healer type 1st, tank 2nd? you are correct that most games dont go to 20. most don't even make it to tier 4. most end at level 10-12. maybe 13-14. and this range is where you should theorycraft the build then just add to the build if you exceed these levels. a spellcaster (controller) is reliable if you know what you're doing. meaning you are packing ways to increase those save dcs (the new magic items in tashas, shadow/wild magic sorc, eloquence bard, etc). Anyway since you are concerned with being a "heal guy" that can tank. I'd reco this spread for level 10: fighter 2, ancients barb 3, twilight cleric 5+: fighting style: interception tactics: pre-combat: cast long lasting buff spells like aid. upcast if needed. you won't be casting spells in combat unless absolutely necessary bonus action: rage action: attack so you can mark with ancestral guardians action surge: twilight sanctuary for 1d6 + cleric level temp hp EVERY turn. or remove charm/frightened if needed reaction: interception i think this realizes your tank + temp hp battery concept better (you don't have to burn bonus actions every turn like an artillerist plus twilight sanctuary scales better and can remove a couple of conditions). less bonus action conflict for the 1st round as well. moreover, this build will have high initiative so you can mark/buff before opponents get to do anything.
he says in the vid spells like this, summons are skipped as they don't deal dmg on your turn. the purpose of burst is to do enough dmg on your turn to take out the enemy so they don't get a turn to hurt your party.
it is. i think he just found better spells (based off of the base dmg). steel wind strike starts to shine as burst once you add on-hit effects such as spirit shroud, dreadful strikes, divine favor, etc. then it becomes a top end burst aoe for it's spell level.
Fantastic if it works! But here I was going for stuff that just works regardless, so long as you hit or they fail their save, etc., and isn't necessarily contingent upon a second thing happening, know what I mean? And also, of course, while 15d10 is great, that's 55 damage on average. Compared to Disintegrate's 10d6 + 40 (75 on average) it still falls pretty far behind. Definitely a great spell though :).
Ah, so many things to impact the damage! Enemy resistances, Enemy AC, Enemy Saves, our DC, any ways we have to augment the damage, etc. etc. Obviously, outside of Meteor Swarm and Disintegrate, the HP of enemies tends to outpace the damage our spells can do all by themselves as the enemy CR increases, but I don't think that's reason to not still make use of them!
@@DnDDeepDive The main problem is that, with the exception of sculpting spells like chain lightning, the big aoe's blasts would be needed to be casted at the start of the fight, wich is when the other high impact spells like fear are at their most powerful.
@@crunter4270 Not necessarily though - depending on choices you make, and how the battle plays out. Sometimes, the enemies may start spread out, and not do you the favor of getting close together until round 2 after your Barbarian runs in swinging and the converge on him :)
technically it's catapult. remember you get to pick an item to throw with that spell. any item that damages on contact like inhaled/contact poisons, acid flasks, etc will add to that 3d8 dmg. some of them can also impose the unconscious condition just like sleep (albeit with a con save).
I personally think that not bringing up spells you can gain via subclass is disingenuous. If you are making a blasting build, you surely are going to look at what subclass is gonna give you the most. As such, I think each class should have two mentions each level - one for highest damage spell from BASE class, and second for what is their highest damage spell from across all subclasses. For instance, 3-rd level warlocks should have a mention of fiendlock's fireball. Additionally, if you are going nova, and are looking at subclasses, I think damage-adding class/subclass abilities should factor in. Perhaps then some maximized lightning/thunder damage spell would outpace Inflict Wounds at some point...
As someone who has tried to build a burst tempest cleric without dipping to much into other classes, i can confirm that no it doesnt beat inflict wounds..the spells that are maximized that will beat inflict wounds are on other classes spell lists such as a transmuted scorching ray from the sorc.
Just was going to add too much to an already hour long video :). Ideally, if a spell peaks someone's interest they'll be able to look it up and see what other subs might have access to it!
@@DnDDeepDive agreed on this. and imo this gives you a chance to talk about spell combos or interactions with features in your build vids. it's just too much to cover here.
I know it would be more editing, but it might help with videos to at least put the names of spells and such to your left and right to make following along easier
I typically do! Here it was a little tough because I was moving through them pretty quickly (though they're all listed in the spreadsheet you can find in the show notes...)
Animate Objects is...just...bafflingly overpowered relative to anything and everything else you could possibly do with your bonus action in the entire game aside from stuff like Blade of Disaster (which is more or less useless anyways because it's a freaking 9th level spell that doesn't change the tide of a war or literally warp reality itself) and MAYBE the really cool, Ranger-exclusive spell, Swift Quiver (that the poor half-caster bastards can't even use because they only get it at level seventeen, so it's really up to Bards to put it to decent use by stealing it at level 10). It is absolutely unreal how much damage and utility this spell represents every single turn until you drop concentration, all without using any resources aside from the initial spell slot used to cast it. Sure, there are a number of limitations to the spell that people don't always consider and it's certainly not unbeatable, but that all just falls away in face of the fact the fact that they can deal up to 10d4+40 damage (at base) with a really solid attack modifier (+8), give flanking advantage to each other and any allies working alongside them, and even be used defensively through area denial with just your bonus action. YOUR BONUS ACTION. I feel like people really lose sight of that fact a lot when trying to compare damage numbers. You get all this, and you're still able to cast whatever you want in the turns after you cast this spell, even including all your scary AoE spells as long as you properly position your animated objects. It's unreal. If you want a point of comparison, Bigby's Hand, another classic 5th level spell, is only capable of doing up to 4d8 force damage to a single target while requiring the exact same investment (5th level spell, action to cast, uses concentration, bonus action to move and attack) as Animate Objects. I mean, yeah sure, Bigby's Hand has some genuinely cool added versatility with all its grabbing and interposing shenanigans, but that's really just made completely and utterly irrelevant in the face of ten (or more) attacks...all made at advantage...all with their own innate damage modifieres...as a bonus action. Oh yeah, and they get opportunity attacks as long as you give them decent orders. That's neat. Seriously, if this spell isn't hard countered the moment it hits the field, pretty much whatever you're attacking won't stand a ghost of a chance against your party. End of story.
agreed with everything except a couple of things: 1. how is all of the attacks with advantage? are you presuming casting blindness yourself or an ally has done something to give it advantage? at it's base they don't attack with advantage. 2. most tables don't use the flanking optional rules. i think it's unfair to factor this in when assessing the spell. similar to assessing conjure animals as an excellent spell while assuming the DM would allow you to summon 8 dire wolves.
@@TheRobversion1 1. I’m referring to flanking as a source of advantage. The animated objects count as creatures and thus give each other and any teammates flanking if you position them properly, which is very easy to do with proper commands. 2. The VAST majority of tables use flanking rules in my experience playing D&D, reading stories about people playing D&D, and watching D&D be played on streams. There’s nothing wrong if you don’t use flanking, it’s entirely up to personal preference, but it is a VERY common rule for people to implement, far more so than even feats as far as I can tell. Personally, I actually agree with you. I wish it wasn’t used so often because the advantage system is so limited in 5e already, however it is what it is. People use the rule extremely regularly, so I saw fit to mention its value when Animate Objects triggers it so easily.
@@ChunkyTheClown ah it came from flanking. It makes sense. Yup our experiences are quite different. I definitely disagree with your response to #2. This is why you hear in most dnd vids (including colbys) that people are talking about advantage generators (like darkness devil sight, familiars, umbral sight, knocking prone, blindness, restrained, etc) because most dont factor them in. If flanking was so common place no one would be talking about those conditions and combos (which imo are common discussion points in comments/forums/vids). Same with most optimization dnd forums like reddit and giants in the playground, rpg stackexchange. I cant say i've watched the same live plays you have, but the ones i've watched dont use flanking either. Either way, imo when assessing the spell at its base (which is what this vid is doing), its best to assess it without variance. So flanking, on hit dmg effects/buffs, dc increase effects/buffs, etc can be mentioned, but if its not a part of the base spell then i dont factor it in.
@@TheRobversion1 I disagree with you logic that flanking isn’t an important factor in balance discussions, however I do recognize that more people than I had previously considered opt to not use flanking rules. Regardless, that changes extremely little about my main point, as the advantage generation was only one part of a series of absurd benefits that this spell gives you for entirely too small of a cost.
@@ChunkyTheClown imo if its an option thats not widely used (like multiclassing or tashas optional rules) then you'll see more people like me and colby who dont factor them in. In either case, i wasnt disagreeing with what you said about animate objects being one of the best spells. I definitely agree with that. Just the flanking part and i was wondering where you were getting the advantage. And anyway at the end of the day, even without flanking, its doable to set up advantage for the animated objects on round 1 anyway without a party member's help (blindness).
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In before someone mentions Wish!
Also, Errata: Lightning bolt is, of course 100 feet, and Cone of Cold is a 60 foot cone, Warlock Spells past level 5 can't be upcast! (Mystic Arcanum /= Spell Slots), and Dragon's Breath at 2nd level is 3d6 not 3d8.
Yes! Some of the arcanum are pretty cool for boosts, crown of stars and blade of disaster are fun to throw at people.
Also: depending on the situation blade of disaster does a lot less collateral damage than meteor swarm. Depending on the setting and the characters morality your play with, that might be a concern! 😁
In eddition to your errata:
in your 2nd lvl AOE section: Dragons Breath damage dice isn't d8 it's a d6
@@DonFranke thx!
Someone has probably mentioned this by now(9 months later), but at 5th level, Scorching Ray beats out Blight.
Ngl I missed this kind of content. Being given a build is one thing but being given the information that helps make my own build, even better imo.
Could not agree more, this is my favorite kind if video he makes and I’m certain there’s more water in this well!
Worth Mentioning about Word of Radiance: It only hurts the things you want it to. Sword Burst and Thunder Clap can hurt allies. Making it better, if not any stronger.
Just a small nitpick: Warlocks don't use spell slots at higher spell level, but they have Mystic Arcanum. So 6th level spells and higher for Warlocks can't be upcast. Which means that spells like Circle of Death is not the best 7th level spell for Warlocks, as you say at 43:03 since they can't cast it at 7th level :-)
ha ha - duh. I'm always screwing up Warlock spell things :). Will add this to the errata list I've got pinned - thanks for the catch.
@@DnDDeepDive No problem! Really liked this video!
Don't have the book handy, was this changed in Tasha's? I thought I remembered some changes to Mystic Arcanum for Warlocks.
@@lord6617 The change from Tasha's is that at levels when you get ASI, you can replace one of your Mystic Arcanum spells.
@@aasekristoffer Thanks!
Inflict Wounds following the Cleric all the way up to 9th level was both the most interesting thing and the saddest thing in this video
Ha ha! Indeed. Although we *did* deviate for one level with Harm!
I love seeing folks go for all or nothing rolling for an attack with inflict wounds and their highest spell slot.
@@jamesmullen3068 i'm one of those. i usually hit of course (advantage, accuracy bonuses from multiclassing, etc).
@@TheRobversion1 how do you usually get advantage on that?
@@jamesmullen3068 well depends on the build. the common ones of course among all builds is coming from stealth for the 1st attack and if DMs allow you to buy common magic items (spellwrought tattoo: find familiar-which i buy). Here's a level 10 spread of an inflict wounds build i've played:
2 fighter, 6 divine sorc, 2 grave cleric
custom lineage: feytouched-dissonant whispers
fighting style: superior technique-feinting attack (for advantage and dmg all in 1)
metamagic: seeking spell, heighten spell
asi: warcaster
1st round
bonus action: feinting attack (works on any attack, not just weapon attack)
move to melee range
action: path to the grave
action surge: heightened dissonant whipers (enemy provokes aoo)
reaction: upcasted level 4 inflict wounds
that's (6d10 + 1d6) x2 for the inflict wounds. 83.5 burst dmg on average for round 1. i can use favored of the gods and/or seeking spell in case i miss even with advantage. so yes i hit on that big bomb 100% of the time.
for further rounds, i can still rely on seeking spell or favored of the gods (if unusued) then now my familiar's help comes into play. if your table doesn't allow buying common magic items, then we can either stick with the options above or use a low level control spell at our disposal like maximillian's earthen grasp, hold person, catapult + net, etc to generate advantage.
IMHO : Power word Kill does not actually do damage. It asks if a target has less then 100 has and if they do they die. Temp hit points or effects that let you drop to one point are not really going to work because you just die and don’t take damage or go to 0 hitpoints. So the spell tests for your HP total but does not damage it - it just kills you outright and this does not count (Strictly speaking) as damaging the target.
yup. similar to what sickened radiance does at the 6th save (no hp check needed). it just checks if the creature is alive. if they fail the save, they just die.
Steel Wind Strike would be good option for Nova rounds for future builds. You can choose your targets (you hit all creatures within the cone of cold). They are spell attack rolls for 6d10 (33) force damage, so it can critically hit.
For example:
9th level wizard +2 level fighter +3 level assassin rogue can:
Choose up to 5 surprised enemy (if one is not surprised, it is not an automatic crit), cast steel wind strike, teleport one's 5 feet,
action surge, choose up to 5 enemy again and cast steel wind strike again with all attacks with advantage.
If 10 attacks hit, you deal 132 force damage to 5 creatures, or you can deal 66 to 10 weak creatures on average.
on a surprise round, per short rest.
I envision this as, a person in a tense dinner with their enemy/enemies, needing to attack but act quickly. They cannot harm their friends and other innocent people. So they reach for a silver fork* (a melee weapon worth at least 1 sp) and start the fight with this.
nice. only thing i dont like about steel wind strike is that it comes online too late. this build comes online level 14. most campaigns have ended at that point. otherwise this is a good build for campaigns that start at tier 3. the fork imagery was a cool touch. i'd pick up metamagic adept for subtle spell so you don't give away the casting to start combat. you just instantaneously teleport and stab people with forks.
One thing to consider with inflict wounds is it can Crit. This makes hold person and Inflict wounds a nasty combo.
actually this is something i think he failed to consider for any spell attacks along with the possible addition of on-hit effects like hex.
I viewed it as NOVA spells you could do Turn 1 round 1 of combat. So no set ups. Because you're (virtually) guaranteed to get to take an action on your turn to cast this spell, but you're not guaranteed to be able to cast, for example, inflict wounds on something that someone has ALREADY slapped a Hold ~Creature~ type spell on.
And of course rules on bonus action casting prevent any Hex addition to these spells for this hypothetical Round 1 NOVA casting.
While this is true, I also didn't account for the fact that if the target of a non-hit spell makes their save, they will often (not always) take half damage. So yeah, just looking at the dice here.
@@DnDDeepDive yeah i think this was a fair approach. you could have mentioned it though like you did with eldritch blast. overall though i found the vid useful with surprises such as blight.
@@adamkaris not necessarily. hold + atk spell combo builds are common place. all you need is action surge. the hex/spirit shroud combos are generally for eldritch blast. most of the spell atk builds do this combo on turn 1 like my force lightning (transmuted scorching ray) user:
2 fighter, 6 shadow sorc (or any sorc really, i picked shadow sorc for the sith theme), 2 tempest.
as long as the enemy is humanoid, it's guaranteed to do 120 dmg on round 1 by himself and then add hound of ill omen dmg. and iirc no humanoid CR 10 and below have more than 120 hp. so it will one-shot. will one shot higher CR humanoids as well.
its not hypothetical. you just need fighter.
Animate Objects:
• Use silver coins for lycanthropes and such
• Use adamantine objects for constructs and such
Problem solved! ☺️👍🏻
Oh yeah, I'll just use all these worthless adamantine objects I have lying around
@@nessesaryschoolthing LOL! Hey, if you can get some small adamantine objects then it might be worth using them with this spell. They could also make critical hits against objects, like doors. 🚪
I got my wizard 20(for upcasting or incase they get lost) silver needles for flavor but coins work just as well
Appreciate the numbers. It's nice to see that the numbers speak to what has been therory crafted as well as seen at the table.
I was just thinking about this which spell to pick for my wizard as my "go to" burst damage spell, going through all the spells and you come up with this video making it 10 times easier and more enjoyable
Blaster Druid build would be cool maybe give circle of the land some love, great video.
I *did* couple a Circle of Land Druid with a Wizard for my first ever team up build - was focused on control and aoe spell damage... th-cam.com/video/3UnCD9uJjQM/w-d-xo.html
One of my favorite videos you’ve made, will definitely come back to use this as a reference too.
Thank you!!
12:16 - Ice Knife is "each creature within 5' " so there can be more than 2 creatures. (target can be surrounded by up to 8 creatures - squares)
correct.
I don't understand the discussion of animate objects as nova damage, without a discussion of Conjure animals and other conjuration spells. As long as you don't have a trolling DM, the spells essentially do the same thing, add new allies to the initiative order under your (bonus action) command. Neither really are 'nova damage'. Both do damage on a different turn, the object/animals turn, which is also why spirit guardians was removed.
Ha ha - I had a segment of the video where I talked about why I wasn't including other "conjure/summon" type spells but ended up deleting it :). My reasoning is, essentially: 1 - I already discussed them in the "Sustained DPR" video, 2 - many of them will depend so heavily on what creature gets summoned that it's too difficult to crunch the numbers (and most tables, I believe, have the DM choosing the summoned creature), 3 - outside of the Shepherd, they're not doing magical damage, and 4 - playing with 8-32 additional creatures in combat presents a lot of other problems for your table similar to what I discussed in the Necromancer video with slowed combat, not enough space, etc. etc.
That said, depending on your table and build, of course, it can be incredibly powerful - there's a Shepherd Druid episode coming here some day...
If you are going to mention animate objects at 5th level in the single target section, might as well mention conjure animals for druid's 3rd level spells or upcast.
8 elk charge up to 24d6+24 (108 avg)
8 velociraptors attack with pack tactics up to 8d4+8d6+32 (80 avg)
Every 2 level upcast it gets up to +8 beasts, 5th lvl up to 16, 7th lvl up to 24, 9th lvl up to 32.
They can do magical damage with shepherd subclass and although squishy as long as they get off one burst attack it's worth it, not to mention mobility control of enemy position with opportunity attacks.
Yet another edit: each elk charge hit forces the enemy to do a strength save or be knocked prone.
Ha ha - I had a segment of the video where I talked about why I wasn't including other "conjure/summon" type spells but ended up deleting it :). My reasoning is, essentially: 1 - I already discussed them in the "Sustained DPR" video, 2 - many of them will depend so heavily on what creature gets summoned that it's too difficult to crunch the numbers (and most tables, I believe, have the DM choosing the summoned creature), 3 - outside of the Shepherd, they're not doing magical damage, and 4 - playing with 8-32 additional creatures in combat presents a lot of *other* problems for your table similar to what I discussed in the Necromancer video with slowed combat, not enough space, etc. etc.
That said, depending on your table and build, of course, it can be incredibly powerful - there's a Shepherd Druid episode coming here some day...
@@DnDDeepDive Ah, so far I haven't really had any problem with it other than the DM not being sure how to balance it or making party members feel weak, the second being the reason I don't play it much.
@@gmstag9686 while i have a problem using it at my table since my DM plays it RAW and picks the weakest options. thank god for giant insect and the new tasha's spells. and this is colby's point for not including. it varies from table to table. too much variance.
@@DnDDeepDive This is true but I feel like if you’re just looking at numbers, it would have been more accurate to at least include it in the conversation anyway, especially because you included Animate Objects.
Small detail, but I like nitpicking: if I am not mistaken, Scorching Ray improves by 2d6 for each level, which would make it 12d6 damage at level 5, for an average of 42, which would put it above blight :) Anyway, great video! Love that kind of content!
Hm... good catch! Going to update the spreadsheet.
One of my favorite videos you've done. Super helpful. Keep up the great work!
Thanks!
Looking at the spreadsheet, it was funny to see that Paladin at every level (1-4) had Smite listed as the best "spell." I would be curious to see a breakdown of the best actual paladin spells at each level, though, just because as a Paladin you can double up smite spells and smites. Most of them don't actually upcast well, and they're all a lower damage die than smite itself, but it's still a way to stack even more damage on a single hit.
I wouldnt mind a set of videos on the most optimized spells and spell combos (especially combos).
Would watch content 👍
I have an incredibly powerful spell combo. I have an 11th level character. Bladesinger 9/fighter 2. I upcast hold person to 4th level and lock down 3 targets (hopefully). Then I cast steel wind strike which has been confirmed by JC that you're considered within 5ft of each target as the attacks are made. So the 3 held targets you have advantage to hit as well as a guaranteed crit. This means that against the 3 targets that are held you're doing 12d10 force damage, and the other 2 targets are taking 6d10 force damage. It comes to 66 average damage to each crit target and 33 average damage to each regular target. For a total of 264 damage on average (this is assuming everything hits and there are 5 targets to hit). This all works because I have action surge from being a fighter so I can do it all in 1 round.
Honorable mention to Magnify Gravity from the Wizards Spell list from Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, scales the same as Shatter, except it starts at Spell Level 1. Has additional controlling effects. And uses Force damage which is less often resisted than Thunder damage.
I feel like, looking at your duality damage+healing builds, I would enjoy watching a video featuring the wildfire druid.
I've got one that uses it, though only for a few levels... th-cam.com/video/67y9QdcNrRo/w-d-xo.html
As much as I love seeing the different builds you come up with, episodes like this one are great idea generators. Awesome job!
Thanks for the work on this mate. Just watched treant"s vid on blast spells so it was perfect timing. Really helps me see how the designers bend the meta.
Thank you, great post! 🎯 re your conclusions, AoE spells > single target (interesting re Disintegrate). Also, saving throws and spell resistances matter, as do spell vulnerabilities
Lots of fun! Love these breaks from the norm! Also the legend of Jim lives on!
Important note on 3rd level spell slots for Wizard and Sorcerer: Upcasting Scorching Ray actually gives you the same 8d6, but with more chances to miss. Technically chances to crit, as well, but I know that's not part of the analysis.
I don't think warlocks can upcast their 6+ level spells, if I'm not mistaken. I allow it, but RAW I don't think it is written that way
Correct! I added that note to the pinned comment :)
I love your content. Also your voice is magical I literaly get goosebumps when you say welcome home
This video never gets old.
Woot 3rd!!! All his videos have been very helpful with my campaign!! Keep up the great work!!!
Sunburst is, ironically, not mentioned in the Burst / Nova episode. xD
As a main sorcerer i loved this analysis! Plz do more! MORE MORE MORE!
Ps: a good thing to observe is the dmg with the respected save applied (each save has a medium % chance, so for example a Magic missile would end up doing more single dmg on the 1st lvl)
actually magic missile would still fall behind catapult's sheer dmg at 1st level.
catapult averages about 20.5 dmg. This assumes you are using acid flask instead of something else like nets or caltrops for some sort of control. over a 2 round casting of catapult. 1 fail, 1 success, it would deal 20.5. a magic missile over 2 rounds would deal 8.5 per round which sums up to 17 dmg in 2 rounds. now this is a very conservative estimate for catapult. its possible that they fail twice. and since the dmg is high, it'll one-shot kill anything at those CRs.
@@TheRobversion1 20.5 on average with the % of the missing chance? Wow! I didnt know you could increase the dmg of the catapult like that! Cool
@@SammaelVanir ah without the % of missing for 1 round. I meant that for over 2 rounds with 50% chance to miss (which is conservative.) Assuming 50% chance of fail that's still 10.25 average dmg vs. 8.5 dmg from magic missile.
And yes catapult is great with throwable items like nets, caltrops, oil, acid flasks, ball bearings, alchemist's fire and holy water.
COLBY! you should redo your sustain damage spells video in this format!!! this was soooooool helpful!
Glad you enjoyed! Hm... maybe one day ;)
This was great. Maybe I missed it in your spreadsheet, but how did you handle:
save = half damage vs. save = no damage
save vs. to hit vs. always hit
Since those will greatly impact the actual average damage for single target.
I don't handle it *at all* :) - I appreciate the importance, but just didn't have the time to try and calculate for those things (though I spend a lot of time calculating for them in the actual character builds). Here we're just talking raw numbers without (uncharacteristically, for me) taking into account likelihood of hitting/resisting.
As I listen through the video, especially at higher level spell slots, it has reinforced to me that there are so many good things you can do with your spell slots than just blast.
imo if you can assure a kill of the bbeg with a blast spell then blast spells are better. otherwise, yeah there are better things to do once you hit 6th-9th.
@@TheRobversion1 yeah, but I think there is a design or balance issue if you can one shot a bbeg. Like I do think having damage in your kit as a full spellcaster makes sense but not exclusively
@@I4MWH014M actually there isn't. people one-shot bbeg with attacks or spells because they find synergies with spells or class abilities. it's not easy as picking a single spell or attacking "normally." and even JC said that combat was meant to be quick.
@@TheRobversion1 I hear you that synergies exist and people find them and that can make combat short but my understanding of bbeg is the final boss of a campaign, so the DM should have an idea of those synergies by the time the party gets there and one round (which is the amount of rounds "one shot" implies to me) is different than 3 rounds for the final combat and I think 3 rounds is fairly quick.
@@I4MWH014M ah just a terminology difference. the BBEG i meant is not the final boss of the campaign but basically who's the most challenging enemy in any combat encounter. you can think of it in terms of boss, general, etc.
for the final boss fight, yeah i agree 3 rounds is short. at my own table it takes about 4-6. but yeah most combat encounters take about 1-3.
Love this types of videos. Keep up the good work
Assuming a 50% success rate on dex saves to take 1/2 damage: 0.75*40*(6+1)/2=105 for Meteor Swarm. If we take a level of Tempest Cleric and use Transmute Spell to turn the damage type to lightning or thunder, we get .75*(20*(6+1)/2+20*6)=142.5. Now, if we would go Tempest Cleric and take Metamagic Adapt instead, we could use two charges of our Channel Divinity and Quickened Spell to cast Call Lightning at 9th level using a bonus action, then use our action to activate the spell's effect to do a total of 0.75*2*9*10=135, which is nearly as much as Meteor Swarm.
Just remember we need 2 levels of Tempest Cleric to get their Channel Divinity :). And we could only transmute 1/2 of Meteor Swarm, I believe, as half is fire and half is bludgeoning. And of course, a big part of the draw for Meteor Swarm is its massive area, but against a couple of targets standing close together, yeah, Call Lightning can be strong in the right circumstances.
I played death cleric with only using inflict wounds as dmg, touch of death works with it since its melee attack and you annihilate everything
I think you might want to account for the average armour class/ saving throws of enemies, to make a deep dive model for these spells.
There's a useful spreadsheet for this floating somewhere on Reddit
Here's a good reference: amp.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/5u0beh/dd_5e_spell_damage_comparison_chart_v2/
Assuming a 60% for your enemy to fail the save (I'm not sure if that's generous or conservative), and the same chance for hitting..
Without including additional damage from crits (It's negligible for level 1 spells)
Inflict Wounds - 15 x 0.6 = 9.5
Catapult - 13.5 x 0.6 = 8.4
Magic Missile - 7.5+3 = 10.5
You have been undone, Mr Deep Dive! Magic Missile wins!
lol. First off, 1d10 on average is 5.5, so 3d10 would be 16.5. Times 60% 9.9 damage ;). From there, of course it all depends on the enemy you're fighting! Assuming you're casting these as a level 1 spell, let's assume you're fighting a CR 1 enemy. The average AC of a CR 1 enemy in the Monster Manual is a 13. Assuming we started with a 16 Wisdom, we'd have a +5 to hit with our Inflict Wounds. 3d10 at a +5 to hit against a 13 AC is 11.55 damage on average. Once you hit 15 AC you're better off with Magic Missile ;).
As for Catapult, the average Dex save of a CR 1 Monster is the MM is +2. Our DC with a 16 in our caster stat would be 13. So 3d8 vs. a +2 to save with a 13 DC is only 6.75 damage on average (since they don't take half damage on a save). So in that case, yes, our Wiz and Sorc would be better off using Magic Missile. If the target had a +0 to save (Brown Bear, Duergar, Half-Ogre, etc.), or if we somehow had an 18 Casting stat (by rolling or starting Custom Lineage and taking a half feat, for example), and they only had a +1 to Dex save (Dryad, Giant Toad, Hippogryph, etc.) then Catapult would be better :P.
@@DnDDeepDive take note catapult's dmg in practice is generally higher than 3d8 at level 1 if it's a spell relied on by the player. they would usually catapult something that breaks once it hits the target and contains something damaging to the target like a flask of acid which adds another 2d6 to that dmg.
i think assuming it's 60% is a low # especially as you gain in levels (more proficiency bonus, magical items that increase in accuracy/dc, ways to cause disadvantage for saves/penalty to saves, ways to boost accuracy/reroll misses). magic missile gets none of these benefits. so a player who knows what they are doing with inflict wounds and catapult will actually do more dmg as the level goes up. and even at level 1, i'd say 70% is a more balanced amount for hit/failed save. for reference, at level 10 my upcasted scorching ray has an 88% hit rate on 5 attacks vs. ac 18. so i miss 1 ray at most. and with that miss i can simply seeking spell reroll it to most likely a hit. as colby said, saves and ac's are lower for low CR creatures.
@@DnDDeepDive This kind of thing is exactly why I watch your videos. Keep it up king!
Great video as always. Just got one thing to say at the end you compared disintegrate to melee damage and said that with arcane recovery you could possibly do it twice a day. However arcane recovery can't regain spellslots of 6th lvl or above. Didn't realize clerics only get inflict wounds to do top damage
Right - was thinking about the new magic item from Tasha's that lets it go up to 6!
@@DnDDeepDive wow i taught they added an extra level not letting it go to 6 if it does that that is awesome.
This was really interesting! Well done man
this is great and reminds me why Light is the Cleric for me
Just wanted to say I've been here since your Hexblade build, and i love you dude
thx Colby
good stuff
suggestion for future vids-head to head comparisons to similar spells
Playing in a level 3 game. Everyone got a rare magic item. I recommended wand of fireball to people. Level 8 fireball a piece without losing the wands
Colby, is the squeaking sound in the background coming from your chair when you swivel? It might need some oil. ❤️
Ha ha yes! Sorry about that :) I was really hoping no one else could hear it...
you forgot about the damage caused by the object that is catapulted. At 2nd level you can launch 10 lb items like siege weapons. a canister siege weapon holds 10 Alchemist's Fire/acid/etc flasks.
i love catapult + acid flasks though it may require DM fiat on being damaged my multiple acid flasks in one strike.
@@TheRobversion1 if the dm doesn't allow the substitution for the alchemical fire ballista from the dmg just use the default weapon.
@@TheRobversion1 10d4 + ongoing 10d4 until put out is still pretty good.
Thank you for your calculations.
On catapult:
I'm pretty sure it evades resistance to Nonmagical attacks because it's not technically an attack. It's a saving throw.
Every creature in the MM with Nonmagical BPS resistance specifics "Nonmagical attacks." Things like animate objects are attacks made by Nonmagical objects animated by magic. But things like catapult and conjure volley, though they involve Nonmagical objects, aren't attacks and should probably avoid the resistances in stat blocks.
good catch. it could be non-magical but it does evade those resistances as the resistances only work on attacks.
I just had a thought. If you cast animate objects on something on fire could you use it to catch enemies or objects on fire. Similarly if you animate vials of acid, could you have the vials release the acid upon destruction? 🤔
acid flasks should work. something on fire though would depend. 5e has specific wordings of what can ignite or what can simply cause fire dmg. this would need DM fiat.
Joinibg my first campaign with session 0 in about an hour - lets se if theres anything educational to gleem from this nova speculation video ;)
Have you ever made a healer build here? If not, check out the Druid Circle of Stars + Life Cleric 1. Namely featuring Aura of Vitality with the Dragon form Wild Shape
I've made several, actually, though only one that focused almost exclusively on healing: th-cam.com/video/9jWvUvfLgSo/w-d-xo.html
you mentioned bard could take anyone's at lvl 10, but didnt mention if it effects anything, does taking destructive wave make that the strongest 5th lvl spell for bard (or in general really, is there a better 5th lvl blaster?)
Tiny correction: you can't reuse disintegrate with arcane recovery (max spell level: 5)
Right - was thinking about the new magic item from Tasha's that lets you increase it to 6!
@@DnDDeepDive cool! I totally missed that. Now how to go about bribing my DM...
Love the topic, algorithm slap!
If a druid has a decent wisdom score, wouldn't Magic Stone be a higher damage cantrip than Poison spray?
yup. and if you have any on hit dmg effects as well, magic stone pulls ahead.
Depending on level. Since magic stone never scales on its own.
Good point. But it did seem like he was referring to them being casted at thier lowest damage amount (ie 1st through 4th lvl characters)
As would Shillelagh, but yes, doesn't really scale outside of ability score, which I made no assumption about, so ignored like similar spells :).
hey how do u feel about guiding bolt i noticed it wasnt on the list
What do you think about psionic Blast?
Dissonant Whispers question. If you're swallowed and cast it on the monster that swallowed you, does the monster move, spending it's reaction, randomly, or not move but spend it's reaction?
Or regurgitate you so it can actually move away?
@@DnDDeepDive nice! Man this spell is great with my melee rogue buddy and the other guys! Thanks for all your work, appreciated.
the monster moves (spending its reaction) after regurgitating you while making sure to avoid any visible threatening environment as it moves away (like a wall of fire).
Clerics seem really weak when you get to higher levels, but through level 5 they take the cake. At 5th level they are beat out by the Fireball spell, but wait... Light Clerics get it anyways. Most games don't get to high levels anyhow.
Hi! What about Mental prison? It might deal 15d10 psychic damage.
I would liked series of high vs highest upscaled spells per class. That way half-casters could have a short episode. Maybe even a slightly easier week for u
*Lore Bard who gets 8 spells from literally any spell lists ever furiously taking notes*
Finally! How long was this delayed? 7 months? Lol. Been waiting for this for a long time. :)
anyway i'll enumerate here some spells which i think deserve honorable mentions due to certain rule interactions:
1st-normal magic missile. works very well with hexblade's curse and empowered evocation to deal alot of dmg single target wise due to the single die roll and no save/atk roll aspect of the spell.
1st-dissonant whispers allows you and other melee party members to get a free aOO nd combo's well with warcaster to let you cast another single target spell .
2nd/cantrip-scorching ray/eldritch blast works very well with hexblade's curse, hex, spirit shroud, etc. since it's multiple attacks it racks up more dmg than other single target spells when you add on-hit dmg effects.
So long I almost forgot how big a pain combing through every spell at every spell slot could be... never again! :P
@@DnDDeepDive yeah but you followed through on that promise so kudos bro. oh and kudos for the 3-1 lead vs. ja and the grizzlies. glad to see mitchell back and doing well.
anyway i also want to commend the format you are presenting the burst dmg spells this time. i agree this is more useful/easier to refer to, especially with all the multiclassing that i do.
@@TheRobversion1 Glad you enjoyed! Yeah, I promised my friends after Game 1 that we'd win the next 4. Here's hoping my prophecy comes true :). Good luck upsetting the Nets - there's no team I want to lose more!
@@DnDDeepDive its going to be tough. We lost 2 more starters to injury. Resigned to already looking forward to next year and becoming a bucks fan the next few weeks (at least they wear green) and cheering for them to take out the nets.
L4 Vitriolic Sphere will be more than Blight if over 62% fail chance or 62% of the creatures fail their save, a big chunk of that damage will come after the failed creatures get finish their next turn though. And then it continues to scale better when upcasted than Blight.
yup and that's why blight wins. he qualified that the point of the burst is to dmg on your turn and take out an enemy asap. not to do sustained dmg.
Right - more overall damage but I wanted to limit things to "instantaneous" - still a spell worthy of consideration!
can you make the ultimate crit fishing build?
I've got one on the list and I think it will be done soon...
For your background you're going to take Fisher to make sure you have a fishing rod in your starting equipment.
(How else you gonna fish??)
If a cleric is going to be upcasting Inflict Wounds with their higher spell slots, is that a good use of True Strike? Or is the dpr trade off too drastic?
Hmmm... hard to justify I think. Maybe if you could prep it before the fight starts? Then if no fight breaks out, nothing lost as it's a cantrip, but if it does, you can open with advantage...
This hour passed faster than it should have...
cast animate objects on 10 silver coins... silver coins... silver, gets around some of the magical resistances
Two quick questions. Did you purposely exclude Hellish Rebuke for warlock for single target at 1st level, this is 2d10 that scales? And secondly Warlocks cannot upcast beyond 5th level spell slots, this is where the mystic arcanum feature comes into play from 6th-9th level spells. Did I miss something here?
Just saw the Errata
@@collinkelch7764 Right - the problem with Hellish Rebuke is that it requires me to get hit first, and I'm not sure that I *will* be - especially if I'm playing a blaster type character who's trying to quickly take out an enemy or group of enemies from range early in the fight :).
Playing a div wizard and took inflict wounds with shadow touched. I smile whenever I roll a 20 portent.
I think an interesting video, maybe by class, would be "maximizing efficiency of spell slots." The idea would be to combine this video with the other spells these classes can cast to say "cast this at this level and don't bother upcasting, just cast this other spell instead." Does that make sense? I dunno. Just an idea.
Good idea - I'll put it on my list :)
On Shillelagh: the stress falls on the middle syllable, rather than the last (/ʃɪˈleɪli/)
If it helps to think of it this way, it rhymes with "ukulele."
@@gregbowen2477 I wonder if you could cast it on a ukulele?
I know you're saying "DAMAGE" but technically sleep does damage, although not really. Nice little story about that; my party and I were fighting some griffins. A stray griffin landed in front of my mage in an attempt to murder him. I desperately casted sleep, knocked it out cold. Sold it for a heafty sum in the next city. I don't want to talk about the walk, I SAID I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT!
Ha ha! I killed a couple of goblins hiding in some barn rafters waiting to ambush us with sleep at level 1 once... :)
I think your videos are great. Would love to see your take on genie warlock tank/gish.
thanks! on the list!
I’d like to revisit the unsung hero of 1st level spells: magic missile. When we compare it to other single-target spells *and factor in miss chance* it actually comes out on top most of the time. That is, unless your attack bonus or spell save DC is exceptionally high, or the target has a pitiful AC or terrible saving throw bonus (or, more likely, a penalty), magic missile will do more damage in the long run over many castings.
For comparison, if we take the 10.5 average damage of magic missile and the 13.5 average damage of catapult/chromatic orb, we find that magic missile does 77% of the damage of the other spells. However, magic missile hits all the time - or nearly so. The only times it fails will be against creatures with immunity to force damage and those with the shield spell, both of which are highly unusual. Catapult and chromatic orb both require an attack roll and, since the D20 progresses in increments of 5%, need an 80% hit chance to exceed the average damage of magic missile. Thus, your spell attack bonus vs. the target’s AC needs to hit on a roll of 5 or greater. If we consider a low-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence, that means an enemy with AC 10. If we min/max properly and start with an 18 Intelligence (and let’s be honest, if you’re watching this channel, you probably will), it raises the break-point AC to 11. So, against a target with an AC that requires an attack roll greater than 4 or 5 (AC 10 or 11 at lower levels), it will be better to use magic missile. For instance, if we have an enemy with AC 13 against a wizard with a +6 spell attack bonus, the wizard needs to roll a 7 or better on the D20 and will hit 70% of the time with catapult or chromatic orb. That puts the average damage output of those spells at 9.45 per casting, well below the 10.5 average of magic missile.
This actually continues when we move to 2nd level spells, too. The average damage of an upcast 2nd level magic missile is exactly 2/3 that of scorching ray, so you need to hit more than 66% of the time for scorching ray to be the better option. That means you need to hit the target on a roll of 7 or better on a D20 for scorching ray to produce more damage over the long haul. As an example, consider a group fighting off a band of marauding gnolls. Over multiple battles, the two wizards in the party cast 20 spells with 2nd level spell slots, one using magic missile, the other scorching ray. Both wizards have a +6 spell attack modifier. The first wizard using magic missile inflicts the expected average of 280 total damage to the enemy. The second wizard makes 60 attack rolls over the course of the battles against the gnolls. With their AC of 15, the wizard needs to roll a 9 on the D20 to hit. So, 40% of the attack rolls miss, while 60% hit, for a total of 36 hits. Over many, many die rolls, the damage averages out to the normal 7 points per hit for a total of 252. And, while we could also add an additional 5%, we’ll say 14, damage to total for the wizard casting scorching ray thanks to critical hits, the total damage still doesn’t equal that of the wizard using magic missile. Plus, if the enemy uses cover, drops prone, takes the Dodge action, or has some other way of increasing AC, that wizard’s damage output diminishes significantly, while the other wizard continues to inflict the same damage.
While we could continue analyzing how the single-target spells shake out (Arcana domain clerics have both magic missile and inflict wounds!), this post is already long enough as it is. Please let me know if I made any mistakes, post them in the comments, and help Colby’s channel have loads of activity that pushes it to the top of TH-cam.
Happy gaming.
a couple of things:
1. catapult doesn't have an attack roll. its a dex save. then you also add whatever the dmg of the breaking object is (such as an additional 2d6 for a vial of acid). so yes this is an all or nothing. but when it does hit the dmg is way higher than a magic missile (3d8 + 2d6). so let's say over the course of 2 rounds an enemy hit with magic missile takes 17 dmg on average. over the course of 2 rounds an enemy gets hit with catapult once and avoids it once. you are still dealing 20.5 dmg on average and divide that over the course of 2 rounds it's better average dmg than magic missile.
2. you are correct with magic missile outscoring scorching ray at those low levels (tier 1). but do note that scorching ray scales better in multiple ways over magic missile:
a. upcasting to 3rd level and higher.
b. you gaining accuracy increases via advantage (if you're a scorching ray user without an advantage generator you're doing it wrong), magic items from tashas, capping your caster stat or even if you get accuracy bonuses from a party buff like bless. my own scorching ray user hits about 88% of the time (versus AC 18) at tier 2 on 5 rays. so yeah none miss or at most 1 miss (where i simply use a seeking spell metamagic to make it hit).
c. the addtional dmg effects you have for increasing magic missile dmg is limited such as hexblade's curse and empowered evocation. scorching ray not only can crit but you also can benefit from the aforementioned hexblade's curse, maximization from destructive wrath (transmute to thunder or lightning) or any other on hit dmg effect like spirit shroud, favored foe, genie's wrath, etc.
with that said, i myself have built around magic missile and it's definitely competitive for creating a burst dmg build.
@@TheRobversion1 Thanks Bob! All good points. That'll teach me to work from memory regarding catapult. Ha. We can still determine the point at which you should use magic missile rather than catapult a vial of acid. I didn't bother earlier because we probably won't know the enemy's saving throw bonuses, so we can't be sure when to use it or not. But perhaps you learn the save bonus somehow, in which case it works out well. At 20.5 damage (and 25 gp per shot!), magic missile causes 51% of the damage caused by catapult. So, you need the target to fail 55% of the time, or on a roll of 11 or less. So, subtract 11 from your spell save DC and you'll have the Dex save bonus at which you would be better off using magic missile, instead of catapult and a vial of acid. Thus, if your spell save DC is 14, anyone with a +3 or better Dex save should get hit with magic missile, while anyone with a +2 or worse should get hit with catapult and a vial of acid. And as you said, if you can get advantage or other bonuses, always use catapult, but if the enemy imposes disadvantage or other penalties, blast those magic missiles.
I didn't attempt to account for bonuses to attack rolls for scorching ray because there can just as often be penalties, a few of which I listed. That said, if you're working with your team, I certainly believe you're correct and can swing the odds more in your favor with things like bless, Help from a familiar, et al. In my games, every time I remember scorching ray being cast, one of the rays missed. If you can hit AC 18 greater than 85% of the time, that's a +14 to hit, effectively, which is astounding. So yes, if you can achieve those sorts of numbers, definitely go with scorching ray. In one game I'm running, a 3rd level barbarian recently turned an attack roll of 2 into a 15 with his normal bonuses, a bless spell, and the peace cleric's emboldening bond, so those numbers are certainly possible even at low levels without magic items. I wouldn't expect that all the time, or even for every PC, though.
And again you're right that I didn't even bother talking about 3rd level spells because magic missile simply won't keep up except in the most edge cases. The focus is really on levels 1 to 4, but can apply at higher levels when you're running low on spell slots. Of course, at 5th level or higher, you might be better off saving the spell slot and using a cantrip. Even though damage output will be higher with a magic missile, it might not be so much higher that it justifies using a spell slot instead of a non-consumable resource.
Anyhow, thanks for the correction - I feel properly dumb now. I certainly should have reread the spell description before posting. Lesson learned. Note to everyone: don't be me - read the spell before you post.
@@shamuswilliams agreed on there's certain points as to when magic missile would do better (such as if your DM is stingy with gold or not allowing you to buy equipment). when catapult would do better.
as for scorching ray's bonuses, the 88% i mentioned is without any ally help. it's all from my own build. here's how i arrived at it:
level 10 spread: 2 fighter, 6 shadow sorcerer, 2 tempest cleric
metamagic: transmute spell, seeking spell
atk bonus: +4 prof bonus, +4 cha, +2 tasha's magic item (fair at this level since we're at tier 2) for a total of +10. the highest ac of any monster at CR 10 is 18. which means i hit on an 8 at worst, which is a 65% hit rate. however, i'm making each scorching ray attack with advantage (because i action surged a spell like web, hold person, maximillian's earthen grasp, etc) which now bring the hit rate to 88%. then for the odd time that i miss, i can spend 1 sorc point to roll again (which at this time mathematically will add 8% to my hit rate moving it up to 96%, I'd assume the hit at this point).
and yes as you stated, with a party's help (bless, emboldening bond, bardic inspiration, etc) that accuracy gets higher and scorching level approaches magic missile's unerring accuracy. with it's superior dmg and more chances to crit it simply pulls ahead. agreed though that i wouldn't expect that for every PC. my build is optimized and is built around scorching ray. an inexperienced player or someone who doesn't optimize will have a different result.
as for whether, magic missile is worth the higher spell slot, i say it depends. if your build is built around magic missile and you can kill or come close to killing a high threat target with it then go for it. anytime you swing the action economy your way with a use of a high levelled spell slot is a slot well spent.
dont feel bad about the mistake. happens to the best of us and you made good discussion points from it anyway.
with all of that said, i just want to prove i'm not a magic missile hater. here's a magic missile build i played and the amount of dmg it does:
level 10 spread: 2 fighter, 7 aberrant mind (can be switched for any other sorc or wiz really), 1 hexblade
race: custom lineage-feytouched dissonant whispers
asi: warcaster
tactics:
bonus action: hexblade's curse
move to enemy
action: dissonant whispers 3d6+4
reaction: upcasted 4th level magic missile at 6d4+30 (45 average dmg)
*check if enemy is close to dying if no, cast a control spell with action surge. if yes...
action surge: upcasted 3rd level magic missile at 5d4+25 (37.5 average dmg)
so an average of 97 dmg on round 1 imo is pretty solid for the lowly magic missile.
dissonant whispers was cast to remove the enemy's reaction (no shield/no counterspell). the hexblade main version of this build does more dmg but sacrifices having lots of spell slots for other stuff).
Wouldn't Shatter outstrip Dissonant Whispers for Bards somewhere around 4th level?
Good catch - I think I forgot to look at AOE spells for single target outside of the obvious Fireball/Meteor Swarm. Admittedly, it would only be better by 1.5 average damage, and by 5th level spells Bards would have access to anything else they wanted, but still, at a 4th level spell slot, if you really need every point of damage you can get...
in the #S wise, yes. but in practice no. dissonant whispers is very far ahead of the curve because it generates aoo for you and your melee party members in range. that's just hard to measure because we haven't set a control of whether what you are doing with your opportunity attack (you could be casting another single target spell via warcaster or attacking with a greatsword) and how many melee party members are there
29:20 - Power Word Kill should be a literal save or die. I'd argue save at disdvangage.
Would be nice to have some way of making it a little bit less of a "roll the dice and see if you guessed correctly!" kind of thing.
Love the content 😊
Thanks!
Was some errata as DnD Beyond lists dragon breath as D6 and not D8 which makes it than a not as good burning hands alternative.
Sadly as it allows to have a different damage to counter those pesky resistances.
Aye - mentioned this in the pinned comment 😉
@@DnDDeepDive sorry had missed that
I'm a fool who doesn't know how to slide into DM's so I'm going to put this here. I've been trying to work on a character who can get the most damage mitigation for themselves and the party. So far I've gotten six levels of oath of the Ancients Barbarian and three levels in artillerist artificer for the protector version of the Eldritch Cannon but after that I'm not sure. I was thinking maybe getting gift of the ever-living ones from pact of the chain Warlock but I'm not sure if that works with temporary hit points and that's not really helping damage mitigation for the whole team. Just wondering your thoughts and how you would handle that character concept.
Basically you're working on a tank. You're on right track with ancestral guardians barb. But artillerist doesnt really bring much to the table. Other classes may offer better stuff if you want to play a tank.
I'd like to clarify though what exactly you're trying to do. Are you trying to tank or are you just trying to prevent as much dmg to the party as possible? Because if its the 2nd, tank is not the most efficient way to do it. Being a controller and preventing that dmg from occuring in the 1st place instead of taking the dmg and reducing it (tanking) is the better approach.
I've got a similar build on my "to do" list so stay tuned! Until then, feel free to check out some of the other Tank builds I've done to date (Armorer, Wizard Tank, Rogue Tank, etc!)
@@DnDDeepDive oh don't worry I'm slowly getting through your whole channel. Sometimes it's good to have a boring third-shift job with no supervision.
@@TheRobversion1 the tankiness is a plus but the goal is to reliably give out the bonus hit points with the protector while still being able to give damage reduction if my allies do get hit which I can do with the oath of ancients and the artillerist. plus with the artillerist you're guaranteed some magical weapons and Buffs. I'm just not sure if I should multi-class more or go fully into artillerist for the added damage to the turrets and the extra turret at level 20. but most games don't go to level 20 anyways so I'm trying to find other ways to reliably reduce damage. I mean sure I could go for a a spellcaster but that's not reliable especially if they resist the spell then that's kind of a wasted turn. but every bonus action I can give out bonus hit points and every reaction I can reduce the damage on one of my allies and every attack I do makes it so they have to attack me or they have disadvantage against my allies and reduce damage if they do hit my Ally. Not to mention the bonus hit points is practically doubled on me. I'm there to be annoying and even more so if I go UA Dragonborn and use the flame Cannon with my two breath weapon attacks if there is a multitude of enemies which is all usable while raging.
@@Tybbles ok so if i'm getting this correctly, the role you want to play is a support/healer type 1st, tank 2nd?
you are correct that most games dont go to 20. most don't even make it to tier 4. most end at level 10-12. maybe 13-14. and this range is where you should theorycraft the build then just add to the build if you exceed these levels.
a spellcaster (controller) is reliable if you know what you're doing. meaning you are packing ways to increase those save dcs (the new magic items in tashas, shadow/wild magic sorc, eloquence bard, etc).
Anyway since you are concerned with being a "heal guy" that can tank. I'd reco this spread for level 10:
fighter 2, ancients barb 3, twilight cleric 5+:
fighting style: interception
tactics:
pre-combat: cast long lasting buff spells like aid. upcast if needed. you won't be casting spells in combat unless absolutely necessary
bonus action: rage
action: attack so you can mark with ancestral guardians
action surge: twilight sanctuary for 1d6 + cleric level temp hp EVERY turn. or remove charm/frightened if needed
reaction: interception
i think this realizes your tank + temp hp battery concept better (you don't have to burn bonus actions every turn like an artillerist plus twilight sanctuary scales better and can remove a couple of conditions). less bonus action conflict for the 1st round as well. moreover, this build will have high initiative so you can mark/buff before opponents get to do anything.
Hmm, not sure if it makes sense to include Animate Objects but not Conjure Animals
What about hellish rebuke for the warlock?
he says in the vid spells like this, summons are skipped as they don't deal dmg on your turn. the purpose of burst is to do enough dmg on your turn to take out the enemy so they don't get a turn to hurt your party.
Steel wind strike? Or is it not applicable as a burst?
it is. i think he just found better spells (based off of the base dmg). steel wind strike starts to shine as burst once you add on-hit effects such as spirit shroud, dreadful strikes, divine favor, etc. then it becomes a top end burst aoe for it's spell level.
Right - I considered and it gets very close, but ultimately got edged out for pure base damage numbers :).
was this before tasha ? because druids now get Cone of cold as a spell because of tasha
Nope. It was post.
My latest character I wanna try is the exploding pixie barbarian
Where is Vicious Mockery 😂?
That would be maybe in funniest single target spells.😅
Wait, even with EB being able to crit more often makes it less DPS?
yup. eB becomes the cantrip king once you either take warlock invocations or start getting more blasts (level 11+)
I was sure I would see Mental Prison at 6th level. Potential 15d10 psychic damage!
Fantastic if it works! But here I was going for stuff that just works regardless, so long as you hit or they fail their save, etc., and isn't necessarily contingent upon a second thing happening, know what I mean? And also, of course, while 15d10 is great, that's 55 damage on average. Compared to Disintegrate's 10d6 + 40 (75 on average) it still falls pretty far behind. Definitely a great spell though :).
How does the damage compare with average hit points per CR?
Ah, so many things to impact the damage! Enemy resistances, Enemy AC, Enemy Saves, our DC, any ways we have to augment the damage, etc. etc. Obviously, outside of Meteor Swarm and Disintegrate, the HP of enemies tends to outpace the damage our spells can do all by themselves as the enemy CR increases, but I don't think that's reason to not still make use of them!
@@DnDDeepDive The main problem is that, with the exception of sculpting spells like chain lightning, the big aoe's blasts would be needed to be casted at the start of the fight, wich is when the other high impact spells like fear are at their most powerful.
@@crunter4270 Not necessarily though - depending on choices you make, and how the battle plays out. Sometimes, the enemies may start spread out, and not do you the favor of getting close together until round 2 after your Barbarian runs in swinging and the converge on him :)
The highest 1st-level single-target 'damage' spell is actually... Sleep(5d8)
technically it's catapult. remember you get to pick an item to throw with that spell. any item that damages on contact like inhaled/contact poisons, acid flasks, etc will add to that 3d8 dmg. some of them can also impose the unconscious condition just like sleep (albeit with a con save).
I personally think that not bringing up spells you can gain via subclass is disingenuous. If you are making a blasting build, you surely are going to look at what subclass is gonna give you the most. As such, I think each class should have two mentions each level - one for highest damage spell from BASE class, and second for what is their highest damage spell from across all subclasses. For instance, 3-rd level warlocks should have a mention of fiendlock's fireball.
Additionally, if you are going nova, and are looking at subclasses, I think damage-adding class/subclass abilities should factor in. Perhaps then some maximized lightning/thunder damage spell would outpace Inflict Wounds at some point...
As someone who has tried to build a burst tempest cleric without dipping to much into other classes, i can confirm that no it doesnt beat inflict wounds..the spells that are maximized that will beat inflict wounds are on other classes spell lists such as a transmuted scorching ray from the sorc.
Just was going to add too much to an already hour long video :). Ideally, if a spell peaks someone's interest they'll be able to look it up and see what other subs might have access to it!
@@DnDDeepDive agreed on this. and imo this gives you a chance to talk about spell combos or interactions with features in your build vids. it's just too much to cover here.
I know it would be more editing, but it might help with videos to at least put the names of spells and such to your left and right to make following along easier
I typically do! Here it was a little tough because I was moving through them pretty quickly (though they're all listed in the spreadsheet you can find in the show notes...)
Oh, no build this week? :(
(cool idea though)
Animate Objects is...just...bafflingly overpowered relative to anything and everything else you could possibly do with your bonus action in the entire game aside from stuff like Blade of Disaster (which is more or less useless anyways because it's a freaking 9th level spell that doesn't change the tide of a war or literally warp reality itself) and MAYBE the really cool, Ranger-exclusive spell, Swift Quiver (that the poor half-caster bastards can't even use because they only get it at level seventeen, so it's really up to Bards to put it to decent use by stealing it at level 10). It is absolutely unreal how much damage and utility this spell represents every single turn until you drop concentration, all without using any resources aside from the initial spell slot used to cast it. Sure, there are a number of limitations to the spell that people don't always consider and it's certainly not unbeatable, but that all just falls away in face of the fact the fact that they can deal up to 10d4+40 damage (at base) with a really solid attack modifier (+8), give flanking advantage to each other and any allies working alongside them, and even be used defensively through area denial with just your bonus action. YOUR BONUS ACTION. I feel like people really lose sight of that fact a lot when trying to compare damage numbers. You get all this, and you're still able to cast whatever you want in the turns after you cast this spell, even including all your scary AoE spells as long as you properly position your animated objects. It's unreal.
If you want a point of comparison, Bigby's Hand, another classic 5th level spell, is only capable of doing up to 4d8 force damage to a single target while requiring the exact same investment (5th level spell, action to cast, uses concentration, bonus action to move and attack) as Animate Objects. I mean, yeah sure, Bigby's Hand has some genuinely cool added versatility with all its grabbing and interposing shenanigans, but that's really just made completely and utterly irrelevant in the face of ten (or more) attacks...all made at advantage...all with their own innate damage modifieres...as a bonus action.
Oh yeah, and they get opportunity attacks as long as you give them decent orders. That's neat.
Seriously, if this spell isn't hard countered the moment it hits the field, pretty much whatever you're attacking won't stand a ghost of a chance against your party. End of story.
agreed with everything except a couple of things:
1. how is all of the attacks with advantage? are you presuming casting blindness yourself or an ally has done something to give it advantage? at it's base they don't attack with advantage.
2. most tables don't use the flanking optional rules. i think it's unfair to factor this in when assessing the spell. similar to assessing conjure animals as an excellent spell while assuming the DM would allow you to summon 8 dire wolves.
@@TheRobversion1
1. I’m referring to flanking as a source of advantage. The animated objects count as creatures and thus give each other and any teammates flanking if you position them properly, which is very easy to do with proper commands.
2. The VAST majority of tables use flanking rules in my experience playing D&D, reading stories about people playing D&D, and watching D&D be played on streams. There’s nothing wrong if you don’t use flanking, it’s entirely up to personal preference, but it is a VERY common rule for people to implement, far more so than even feats as far as I can tell. Personally, I actually agree with you. I wish it wasn’t used so often because the advantage system is so limited in 5e already, however it is what it is. People use the rule extremely regularly, so I saw fit to mention its value when Animate Objects triggers it so easily.
@@ChunkyTheClown ah it came from flanking. It makes sense.
Yup our experiences are quite different. I definitely disagree with your response to #2. This is why you hear in most dnd vids (including colbys) that people are talking about advantage generators (like darkness devil sight, familiars, umbral sight, knocking prone, blindness, restrained, etc) because most dont factor them in. If flanking was so common place no one would be talking about those conditions and combos (which imo are common discussion points in comments/forums/vids). Same with most optimization dnd forums like reddit and giants in the playground, rpg stackexchange.
I cant say i've watched the same live plays you have, but the ones i've watched dont use flanking either. Either way, imo when assessing the spell at its base (which is what this vid is doing), its best to assess it without variance. So flanking, on hit dmg effects/buffs, dc increase effects/buffs, etc can be mentioned, but if its not a part of the base spell then i dont factor it in.
@@TheRobversion1 I disagree with you logic that flanking isn’t an important factor in balance discussions, however I do recognize that more people than I had previously considered opt to not use flanking rules. Regardless, that changes extremely little about my main point, as the advantage generation was only one part of a series of absurd benefits that this spell gives you for entirely too small of a cost.
@@ChunkyTheClown imo if its an option thats not widely used (like multiclassing or tashas optional rules) then you'll see more people like me and colby who dont factor them in.
In either case, i wasnt disagreeing with what you said about animate objects being one of the best spells. I definitely agree with that. Just the flanking part and i was wondering where you were getting the advantage. And anyway at the end of the day, even without flanking, its doable to set up advantage for the animated objects on round 1 anyway without a party member's help (blindness).
AOE Build next?
Are you gonna update this for 2024?
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