2:53 for me it became clear it was a dream when the “ending” was “too perfect” (letting us pick the next destination, having all the various parties choose peacefully what to do with Penacony, heck having Sunday being one shotted by a blind side attack seemed off).
@@dorsalfinlive I do like in he reality ending it was pretty much everyone using their strength together to wake everyone from the dreams (as Robin song of harmony linked the hopes and dreams of people who were waking up together) A more symbolic way to show that despite Sunday intentions and expectations people could work together even if it was only for a short time in reality.
Genuinely impressed to see you look into Divine Simplicity and share your findings as it relates to Sunday. I’ve never seen anyone talk about it outside of my academic discussions with fellow Catholics, so this was a welcome surprise!
I hope I did the philosophy justice! I studied Plotinus a while back, but my memory is fuzzy. It’s definitely not my area of expertise, but Christian thought I’d pretty cool and brushing up on it was fun.
I'd like to correct you on something. Sunday and Robin haven't seen each other in a while, and while Robin has left Penacony's dream, Sunday likely hasn't been in the real world in a while so I'm reality, it's Sunday whose been sheltered and groomed into groomed by Gopher Wood. He's never really lived for himself before.
That’s a fair take, I think I felt Robin was more sheltered bc she wasn’t taught the the world was so inherently flawed, while Sunday was taught that the real world was full of anguish
@dorsalfinlive Robin left Penacony a long time ago. She's been out of the Order's influence and in the world for a while. That's how she got shot in the war zone. Just because one believes in helping and the goodness of others, it doesn't make them sheltered they can be the most world weary person there is. That is the case with Robin. In fact, you could say that she wouldn't have made it nearly as far as she had without having any street smarts. Hence why she knew that there was a cure for the ex-soldier's affliction, but Sunday did not. A big point about Sunday's scheme is that it really didn't work on people who had experienced actual hardship because they could sus out the bs. What Robin and TB believe is that instead of spending your life in a dream, you should actually try to improve it instead.
my personal opinion is that Sunday is deeply flawed and scarred character. he realizes that even Robin (who had the best intentions and kindness) could not bring about true peace. Harmony in his mind was not the answer so he chooses "Order" forcibily giving people their happy endings even if that means they could no longer anything except their happiness. he chose happiness over choice (as its clear people trapped in the dream do not know they are in a dream) his idea of Order means nobody can choose whether they want happiness or choice (hence he gives them their ideal ending inside of a dream so nobody would think of leaving) to call him a villian or good guy is kinda too simple. He is a person who has been scarred by his experiences so has decided that if the world continues to bring suffering from existing in it he will take away an unhappy reality and bring a happy dream/ that is how i see his character (hence why he cannot agree with Robin despite loving her as he traps her inside a dream too)
@@dorsalfinlive I don’t think Robin necessarily thinks everyone has to think the same way (as she disagrees with the orphans wanting to stay in the dreamscape) but she does believe people should have the right to choose what they want to do. Hence why she rejects the idea of forcing people into happy dreams. And I do think it shows her strength that she isn’t bitter she got hurt going into a war zone and still actively tries to give people hope (it would be rather understandable if she became bitter her efforts to change worlds peacefully ended up getting hurt and proving people don’t want to live in peace) -coincidentally Sunday instead takes the incident much harsher (rather then Robin accepting it was an accident and things do happen) and seemingly decides that people need to stop fighting and suffering and the only way is the through forcibly putting people into dreams (instead of slowly asking people to change he denies any real change in reality)
@@dorsalfinlive I actually wondered since a certain point Stelle was trapped in a freak of Sunday speech about Robin neck injuries was a lie or something just in a dream. But people have screenshotted and zoomed in Robin neck and there are faint traces of scars indicating his story was in fact truth.
1:10 I did think despite lying by omission (he never told Robin about the order or the fact he was already actively making his plans) If there is anyone he is trying to make happy it’s probably Robin (he doenst erase the past but gives people a happy pretend future). I feel in Robin ideal world she managed to talk down Sunday (as it’s possibly the fight never occoured in her dream perception) so they never even had to fight or disagree. Byte I LOVE Robin! So glad I got her e0!
@@dorsalfinlive thank you! To be fair I saved a lot of jades for her (I had like over 400 wishes before I pulled for her). I lost the 50/50 for her (got e1 Gerpard instead) but she did come home!! Now I am wearing for fu Xuan next week and Firely next patch! (Possibly Jade)!! Over 400 wishes again! To be clear I am not FTP. I buy the welkin and battle pass so it does help bossy up the jades I can normally collect!
Yeah the Sunday Ayato comparison are funny because Sunday is a really compelling character and Ayato is "it was all my plan now I will disappear after 5 min of screentime "
Can't believe I found your video less than a day before the new update😅 anyway... I am glad though because the people a saw play throgh the quest always tend to side with the tb and such, so I'm happy that you too are leaning more towards Sunday ideals. Also idk if you did it but there is a hidden quest in the theatre, you have to go to the entrance of the theatre and walk until you get a message from Robin and then go to the boss and then back to where you got the message,it ties together the end and also highlights how miserable Sunday truly feel. Plus there is a bloodhound member in one of theatre rooms, she will share some important stuff too.
Remember there is an “epilogue” (they stated this in one of the livestreams), for Penacony in 2.3. I am guessing loose threads like Firely (in reality), sparkle and the IPC taking over the planet will be resolved then, (the reality is that endings are not supposed to be all cut and dry.) things are messy (unlike the dream ending where everything just gets settled just cause it’s what the trailblazer wanted in their dreams)
@@dorsalfinlive there is actually an unvoiced scene you can unlock in 2.2 set after the events that does hint at what happens. This does have the actual scene (unvoiced) but I think it probably has the “how do you unlock it” in very description or something if you what to do it yourself, th-cam.com/video/ba2DIUded5s/w-d-xo.htmlsi=v8qPaEXXKrzdp2Uz
I remember finding notes notes from Elio and im pretty sure that elio did narrate for the quest. So i assuming the goal the stelleron hunters have must be a extremely important and plot relevant. Hopefully is explained in the interlude.
I actually prefer Robin's side more than anything, because she seems more like the realist to me. To me, it looks like sundays been sheltered all his life and has a pessimistic outlook on others without even considering another angle. Robin also seems more openminded. A good example of this is their interactions with the npcs, robin just listens and doesnt judge peoples decisions even if she disagrees with them, but sunday seems to have made complete assumptions on the people around him. I also think robin hides a lot more of herself from sunday, precisely because she thinks he wouldnt accept anything that doesnt fit with his ideology -- she hid a bullet wound from him! While she was out there on a warzone planet spreading the message of harmony, likely aiding in relief efforts. I think that she and sunday actually do share the same dream -- to create a paradise. What robin herself disagrees with is her brother's tendency to do things alone, and run away into a dream. Sunday seems to think this is an acceptable response, but we all know it isnt. You cant run away from reality, nor should you hope to. Thats what robin is trying to get across. The dream is over, it's time to wake up. Buuuuut we dont actually have much of anything regarding robin's inner thoughts and her personality, so this could all end up being a tiny bit wrong. Im waiting for 2.3 to see :D
This seems reasonable to me! Robin certainly spends more time in reality and is more so a proponent of free choice which certainly has its merits. I agree it would be really cool to see more of Robin, both were interesting characters!
I felt the Boothill censoring was used a bit too often. Funny sometimes tho The Argenti Voice missing was confirmed as a bug by them and should be resolved now I fell for the credits too lol Finally someone else not on board the "it's kamisato clan" train
Tbh with the Argenti voice I kinda thought it was supposed to show another glitch in the sweet dream, ig this is prof that I sometimes do read too far into things lol
4:49 Okay I Am gonna be an Ayato defender because the entire reason I even ended up liking Sunday was because of some of his traits aside the ones listed here were reminiscent of Ayato, who is one of my favorite characters in media. A lot of people seem to forget there IS more to Ayato, it's just that Hoyo didn't give him a chance to shine. First things first, he _did_ serve a purpose to the story. In his trailer he was the one who managed to get the Traveler and others into Inazuma, it's just that this is never stated in the game itself unfortunately. As for the similarities, Ayato seems to be the kind of person to actually take drastic measures for the sake of protecting both his people and his family, but he also appears to be easily swayed, or at least in a sense, to not disobey a higher force due to that being more of a risk to his loved ones suffering from collateral damage. He seems to obey the Shogun simply because he was taught to and not because he actually abides by her beliefs, akin to how Sunday's way of thinking was influenced by Gopher Wood but he still chose to slightly derive from Gopher's original plan to impose his own whilst still retaining the overarching idea of Order. And much like Sunday, Ayato values his loved ones above himself and is Very Obviously self-sacrificial for that, as well, eg. His quote *"I didn't mind what became of me, but my family? No one can ever be allowed to trample over my precious family."* in his Story Quest towards the end. Not to mention Ayato's constellation is that of Cypress leaves, which in the original CN and JPN they're leaves from a type of, well, Oak Tree. Both of them are essentially clan heads/leaders and Sunday pertains to the Oak family, which has a political structure much like how the Kamisato clan does within the Tri Commission and... well, the Kamisato Clan's Yashiro Commission is in charge of the people's wishes and whatnot, thus by proxy making them in charge of festivals and other cultural activities. What is Penacony all about? It's the planet of festivities! Another thing to note is that Ayato once said in his story quest that he doesn't any of the Tri Commission clans to overpower the other, so that the stability of Inazuma by proxy isn't threatened and wishes Harmony amongst them, which can be compared to how Sunday used Harmony to obtain Order in his desire to give humanity a place to thrive. There's a LOT more to their similarities than just the surface levels and I have been waiting for someone to point it out and the one time I see it Ayato is, once again, reduced to "boring" was honestly disappointing, because if you acknowledge at least their vague parallels, it could also help figure out more than just Genshin's storyline and speculate on other Hoyo games, because Hoyo actually has a knack for parallelism in their games.
I’m glad you made this comment bc I know I didn’t address this topic seriously in the video. My comment was mainly focused at the shallow comparisons I have been seeing. I think for me it can be hard to separate character in concept from character as contextualized by the given story. The oak tree and cypress leaves an interesting connection. Honestly I find Ayato boring despite the depth, but this isn’t bc he is a bad character. It literally just comes down to what you brought up before which is lack of “time to shine.” Whether or not I can appreciate the character, I’m glad you have the passion to share this!
I also believe (though this is quite literally just speculation but) that Penacony was Hoyo's way of making up for Inazuma's story. Both regions were released in the 2.0 patches of their respective games, and both follow a storyline of "sleeping things off" whilst allowing looming threats to gradually take over + secluding the people in a perpetual state of unmoving certainty so they wouldn't feel pain ever again, and with the many people reiterating that Sunday is everything they hoped Ayato to be (which.. I agree, honestly) I don't think it's necessarily far fetched to say the devs withdrew parallels.
@@sekiezkogg that would make sense! I certainly see a lot of similarities between Sunday and the Shogun’s way of thinking. I definitely get wishing they gave Ayato more, it seems strange that a character who could have been so important to the story was given so little screen time.
@@dorsalfinlive I agree. Hopefully maybe in the future he does become more relevant, especially after that last Itto event with Ei talking about an upcoming war.
2:12 I kinda thought (at least in teh English version) it was clear Hiyo intentionally censored him by having him say things that sounded close to swears but weren’t (to show he is crass but a funny kind of crass)
@@dorsalfinlive the English VA for Boothill made a tweet about “all the times Boothill was. Censored” so he is well aware his character is suppose to be rude but in a way that doesn’t really offend anyone lol.
It does kinda bother in this type of narrative when the character who is telling everyone to believe in hope is this perfect amazing person but I still did liked it. Also thought the cut to Misha was very awkward
![[2.7] Amphoreus: Memory of a Dead World - Honkai: Star Rail Theory](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MNosnxlEDKg/mqdefault.jpg)
![[2.7] Amphoreus: Memory of a Dead World - Honkai: Star Rail Theory](/img/tr.png)
![HSR Figured out how to Write a Story [Screenwriting Analysis]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ijZquEHK7eI/mqdefault.jpg)
2:53 for me it became clear it was a dream when the “ending” was “too perfect” (letting us pick the next destination, having all the various parties choose peacefully what to do with Penacony, heck having Sunday being one shotted by a blind side attack seemed off).
I lost faith so quickly in Hoyo, but I’m so glad I was wrong bc I was going to be devastated that all the potential for a great set up was lost.
@@dorsalfinlive I do like in he reality ending it was pretty much everyone using their strength together to wake everyone from the dreams (as Robin song of harmony linked the hopes and dreams of people who were waking up together)
A more symbolic way to show that despite Sunday intentions and expectations people could work together even if it was only for a short time in reality.
Genuinely impressed to see you look into Divine Simplicity and share your findings as it relates to Sunday. I’ve never seen anyone talk about it outside of my academic discussions with fellow Catholics, so this was a welcome surprise!
I hope I did the philosophy justice! I studied Plotinus a while back, but my memory is fuzzy. It’s definitely not my area of expertise, but Christian thought I’d pretty cool and brushing up on it was fun.
I'd like to correct you on something. Sunday and Robin haven't seen each other in a while, and while Robin has left Penacony's dream, Sunday likely hasn't been in the real world in a while so I'm reality, it's Sunday whose been sheltered and groomed into groomed by Gopher Wood. He's never really lived for himself before.
That’s a fair take, I think I felt Robin was more sheltered bc she wasn’t taught the the world was so inherently flawed, while Sunday was taught that the real world was full of anguish
@dorsalfinlive Robin left Penacony a long time ago. She's been out of the Order's influence and in the world for a while. That's how she got shot in the war zone. Just because one believes in helping and the goodness of others, it doesn't make them sheltered they can be the most world weary person there is. That is the case with Robin. In fact, you could say that she wouldn't have made it nearly as far as she had without having any street smarts. Hence why she knew that there was a cure for the ex-soldier's affliction, but Sunday did not.
A big point about Sunday's scheme is that it really didn't work on people who had experienced actual hardship because they could sus out the bs.
What Robin and TB believe is that instead of spending your life in a dream, you should actually try to improve it instead.
my personal opinion is that Sunday is deeply flawed and scarred character. he realizes that even Robin (who had the best intentions and kindness) could not bring about true peace. Harmony in his mind was not the answer so he chooses "Order"
forcibily giving people their happy endings even if that means they could no longer anything except their happiness.
he chose happiness over choice (as its clear people trapped in the dream do not know they are in a dream)
his idea of Order means nobody can choose whether they want happiness or choice (hence he gives them their ideal ending inside of a dream so nobody would think of leaving)
to call him a villian or good guy is kinda too simple. He is a person who has been scarred by his experiences so has decided that if the world continues to bring suffering from existing in it he will take away an unhappy reality and bring a happy dream/
that is how i see his character (hence why he cannot agree with Robin despite loving her as he traps her inside a dream too)
I get this! Robin was so lovely, but I just couldn’t get on board with her ideas as much.
@@dorsalfinlive I don’t think Robin necessarily thinks everyone has to think the same way (as she disagrees with the orphans wanting to stay in the dreamscape) but she does believe people should have the right to choose what they want to do.
Hence why she rejects the idea of forcing people into happy dreams.
And I do think it shows her strength that she isn’t bitter she got hurt going into a war zone and still actively tries to give people hope (it would be rather understandable if she became bitter her efforts to change worlds peacefully ended up getting hurt and proving people don’t want to live in peace)
-coincidentally Sunday instead takes the incident much harsher (rather then Robin accepting it was an accident and things do happen) and seemingly decides that people need to stop fighting and suffering and the only way is the through forcibly putting people into dreams (instead of slowly asking people to change he denies any real change in reality)
@@dorsalfinlive I actually wondered since a certain point Stelle was trapped in a freak of Sunday speech about Robin neck injuries was a lie or something just in a dream. But people have screenshotted and zoomed in Robin neck and there are faint traces of scars indicating his story was in fact truth.
1:10 I did think despite lying by omission (he never told Robin about the order or the fact he was already actively making his plans)
If there is anyone he is trying to make happy it’s probably Robin (he doenst erase the past but gives people a happy pretend future). I feel in Robin ideal world she managed to talk down Sunday (as it’s possibly the fight never occoured in her dream perception) so they never even had to fight or disagree.
Byte I LOVE Robin! So glad I got her e0!
Congrats on the Robin pull! I was hoping I would be really lucky and get a copy, but I haven’t even managed a topaz yet 😬
@@dorsalfinlive thank you! To be fair I saved a lot of jades for her (I had like over 400 wishes before I pulled for her). I lost the 50/50 for her (got e1 Gerpard instead) but she did come home!!
Now I am wearing for fu Xuan next week and Firely next patch! (Possibly Jade)!! Over 400 wishes again!
To be clear I am not FTP. I buy the welkin and battle pass so it does help bossy up the jades I can normally collect!
gl on the fu xuan banner!
@@dorsalfinlive i got her in 63 pulls!! i beat the 50/50!! this makes up the 114 i needed for Robin lost the 50./50 to Gerpard for Robin)!!!
Yeah the Sunday Ayato comparison are funny because Sunday is a really compelling character and Ayato is "it was all my plan now I will disappear after 5 min of screentime "
Ayato truly deserved better
Can't believe I found your video less than a day before the new update😅 anyway... I am glad though because the people a saw play throgh the quest always tend to side with the tb and such, so I'm happy that you too are leaning more towards Sunday ideals. Also idk if you did it but there is a hidden quest in the theatre, you have to go to the entrance of the theatre and walk until you get a message from Robin and then go to the boss and then back to where you got the message,it ties together the end and also highlights how miserable Sunday truly feel. Plus there is a bloodhound member in one of theatre rooms, she will share some important stuff too.
I still haven’t done that quest, I’m so bad at doing quests but I’m excited for it!
Remember there is an “epilogue” (they stated this in one of the livestreams), for Penacony in 2.3. I am guessing loose threads like Firely (in reality), sparkle and the IPC taking over the planet will be resolved then, (the reality is that endings are not supposed to be all cut and dry.) things are messy (unlike the dream ending where everything just gets settled just cause it’s what the trailblazer wanted in their dreams)
I’m already excited for the follow up where Robin asks us to look for what happened to Sunday. I really like that the not cut and dry endings :)
@@dorsalfinlive there is actually an unvoiced scene you can unlock in 2.2 set after the events that does hint at what happens.
This does have the actual scene (unvoiced) but I think it probably has the “how do you unlock it” in very description or something if you what to do it yourself,
th-cam.com/video/ba2DIUded5s/w-d-xo.htmlsi=v8qPaEXXKrzdp2Uz
I remember finding notes notes from Elio and im pretty sure that elio did narrate for the quest. So i assuming the goal the stelleron hunters have must be a extremely important and plot relevant. Hopefully is explained in the interlude.
I hope so, they sound really interesting, but I just know so little.
I actually prefer Robin's side more than anything, because she seems more like the realist to me. To me, it looks like sundays been sheltered all his life and has a pessimistic outlook on others without even considering another angle. Robin also seems more openminded. A good example of this is their interactions with the npcs, robin just listens and doesnt judge peoples decisions even if she disagrees with them, but sunday seems to have made complete assumptions on the people around him.
I also think robin hides a lot more of herself from sunday, precisely because she thinks he wouldnt accept anything that doesnt fit with his ideology -- she hid a bullet wound from him! While she was out there on a warzone planet spreading the message of harmony, likely aiding in relief efforts.
I think that she and sunday actually do share the same dream -- to create a paradise. What robin herself disagrees with is her brother's tendency to do things alone, and run away into a dream. Sunday seems to think this is an acceptable response, but we all know it isnt. You cant run away from reality, nor should you hope to. Thats what robin is trying to get across. The dream is over, it's time to wake up.
Buuuuut we dont actually have much of anything regarding robin's inner thoughts and her personality, so this could all end up being a tiny bit wrong. Im waiting for 2.3 to see :D
This seems reasonable to me! Robin certainly spends more time in reality and is more so a proponent of free choice which certainly has its merits. I agree it would be really cool to see more of Robin, both were interesting characters!
I felt the Boothill censoring was used a bit too often. Funny sometimes tho
The Argenti Voice missing was confirmed as a bug by them and should be resolved now
I fell for the credits too lol
Finally someone else not on board the "it's kamisato clan" train
Tbh with the Argenti voice I kinda thought it was supposed to show another glitch in the sweet dream, ig this is prof that I sometimes do read too far into things lol
4:49 Okay I Am gonna be an Ayato defender because the entire reason I even ended up liking Sunday was because of some of his traits aside the ones listed here were reminiscent of Ayato, who is one of my favorite characters in media.
A lot of people seem to forget there IS more to Ayato, it's just that Hoyo didn't give him a chance to shine. First things first, he _did_ serve a purpose to the story. In his trailer he was the one who managed to get the Traveler and others into Inazuma, it's just that this is never stated in the game itself unfortunately.
As for the similarities, Ayato seems to be the kind of person to actually take drastic measures for the sake of protecting both his people and his family, but he also appears to be easily swayed, or at least in a sense, to not disobey a higher force due to that being more of a risk to his loved ones suffering from collateral damage. He seems to obey the Shogun simply because he was taught to and not because he actually abides by her beliefs, akin to how Sunday's way of thinking was influenced by Gopher Wood but he still chose to slightly derive from Gopher's original plan to impose his own whilst still retaining the overarching idea of Order. And much like Sunday, Ayato values his loved ones above himself and is Very Obviously self-sacrificial for that, as well, eg. His quote *"I didn't mind what became of me, but my family? No one can ever be allowed to trample over my precious family."* in his Story Quest towards the end.
Not to mention Ayato's constellation is that of Cypress leaves, which in the original CN and JPN they're leaves from a type of, well, Oak Tree. Both of them are essentially clan heads/leaders and Sunday pertains to the Oak family, which has a political structure much like how the Kamisato clan does within the Tri Commission and... well, the Kamisato Clan's Yashiro Commission is in charge of the people's wishes and whatnot, thus by proxy making them in charge of festivals and other cultural activities. What is Penacony all about? It's the planet of festivities!
Another thing to note is that Ayato once said in his story quest that he doesn't any of the Tri Commission clans to overpower the other, so that the stability of Inazuma by proxy isn't threatened and wishes Harmony amongst them, which can be compared to how Sunday used Harmony to obtain Order in his desire to give humanity a place to thrive.
There's a LOT more to their similarities than just the surface levels and I have been waiting for someone to point it out and the one time I see it Ayato is, once again, reduced to "boring" was honestly disappointing, because if you acknowledge at least their vague parallels, it could also help figure out more than just Genshin's storyline and speculate on other Hoyo games, because Hoyo actually has a knack for parallelism in their games.
I’m glad you made this comment bc I know I didn’t address this topic seriously in the video. My comment was mainly focused at the shallow comparisons I have been seeing. I think for me it can be hard to separate character in concept from character as contextualized by the given story. The oak tree and cypress leaves an interesting connection. Honestly I find Ayato boring despite the depth, but this isn’t bc he is a bad character. It literally just comes down to what you brought up before which is lack of “time to shine.” Whether or not I can appreciate the character, I’m glad you have the passion to share this!
I also believe (though this is quite literally just speculation but) that Penacony was Hoyo's way of making up for Inazuma's story. Both regions were released in the 2.0 patches of their respective games, and both follow a storyline of "sleeping things off" whilst allowing looming threats to gradually take over + secluding the people in a perpetual state of unmoving certainty so they wouldn't feel pain ever again, and with the many people reiterating that Sunday is everything they hoped Ayato to be (which.. I agree, honestly) I don't think it's necessarily far fetched to say the devs withdrew parallels.
@@sekiezkogg that would make sense! I certainly see a lot of similarities between Sunday and the Shogun’s way of thinking. I definitely get wishing they gave Ayato more, it seems strange that a character who could have been so important to the story was given so little screen time.
@@dorsalfinlive I agree. Hopefully maybe in the future he does become more relevant, especially after that last Itto event with Ei talking about an upcoming war.
2:12 I kinda thought (at least in teh English version) it was clear Hiyo intentionally censored him by having him say things that sounded close to swears but weren’t (to show he is crass but a funny kind of crass)
It reminded of that show “the good place” and for some reason I found that very upsetting. Just a silly little pet peeve of mine i think.
@@dorsalfinlive the English VA for Boothill made a tweet about “all the times Boothill was. Censored” so he is well aware his character is suppose to be rude but in a way that doesn’t really offend anyone lol.
Eva from Bible means "Ena" with a transalte mistake in the reasig of "Eva"?
It does kinda bother in this type of narrative when the character who is telling everyone to believe in hope is this perfect amazing person but I still did liked it. Also thought the cut to Misha was very awkward
I get that, Robin stood for so much that I dislike yet I still had a hard time not liking her.