Il tuo lavoro è meraviglioso, Maestro Para, uno spettacolo per gli occhi irritati. Grazie per aver condiviso . Saluti dal Brasile, dall'allievo dal maestro liutaio Marcello Martinenghi
Hi Davide, thank you very much for this video and all the others, helping me tremendiously in my own learning. As I'm about to install my first bass bar, I'm quite interested in this video. I see at 2:22 that the bass bar frame is already a bit tilted and not flat. Later you create a gap between the bass bar ends and the plate to generate additional tension (what you indicated also in the different comments below). For the bass bar frame, what's your radius you implemented on the surface? seems to be 2-3 mm? Wouldn't it be enough to have a flat surface and increase the gap under the bass bar ends or the other way round, have the frame more curved and then glue the bass bar without the gap & tension? did I miss something? thanks in advance !
The purpose of the frame is to reproduce the rib's profile so that the bassbar can be fitted to the top plate in the closed soundbox condition. The tilt is 1.5 mm, these are two staggered planes (there are no curves) that meet at an angle at the upper corners. The slight curvature (usually but improperly called tension) that I put in the bar is not intended to introduce any real tension, but only to prevent its curvature in the opposite direction (light in the center) due to the release of the internal tensions of the wood when the bar will be shaped after gluing. If I didn't use the frame that reproduces the tilt of the ribs, I would be forced to put a lot of tension in the bar (more than 2 mm), and it would have to be placed asymmetrically, concentrating it only in the upper part, which would prevent the greater curvature of the bar compared to that of the plate from being distributed smoothly, which I believe could be harmful to the structure and the sound. The curvature (tension) that I put into the bar will be almost canceled out when the soundbox is assembled, what remains is the tension of the entire upper part of the top plate introduced by the tilt in the ribs, which is useful to counteract the longitudinal bending of the soundbox under the string's tension and the leverage of the neck. At least these are the factors that in my opinion justifies the staggered tilt in the ribs typical of the old Cremonese masters, I don't like that there is too much residual tension in the bassbar with the violin in playing conditions. Ideally, with the tension of the strings, a tension-free equilibrium condition should be achieved in the bar and plate, in order to allow greater freedom of vibration. Sorry for the long-winded answer, but the topic is rather complex and it is always difficult (impossible) to isolate a single element from the entire structure of the violin.
@@DavideSora (just seeing that my initial response disappeared, so I respond again): thank you very much for your detailed answers. I'll start with the bass bar work probably this weekend and I'll see how it goes 🙂 thank you very much again !
Davvero complimenti. Guardare i tuoi filmati è sempre estremamente interessante nonchè rilassante e coinvolgente al tempo stesso. Per passione costruisco nel tempo libero chitarre; nulla di paragonabile ai tuoi meravigliosi violini; ho trovato comunuqe di grande ispirazione e aiuto molto tuoi video durante la costruzione di una chitarra archtop che ho costruito lo scorso anno.. Grazie mille! un saluto da rimini
Greetings Davide: Just out of curiosity what would be the usual M2 frequency (with F holes and bassbar), before varnishing? Thank you again for your continuous posts and support.
For me the D#/C# range is a good spot for the M2 (156 Hz to 138 Hz). An old theory (Hutchins) wanted it around F/F#, exactly an octave lower than the M5, but to obtain this would require thicknesses that are too high and arching too low for my tastes, and in any case, there is no point in trying to tune the M5 and the M2 to exact frequency or ratio.
Hi Maestro, I've been doing this job for 20 years. There is no better explanation than yours. thanks. How high should the bas-bar height be? Does the bass increase as the height increases? What is the ideal measure for balance?
Unfortunately there is no ideal height because, as you probably know, it depends on the top plate properties (arch shape and stiffness, wood properties) to which the bar is glued. Of course I have my preferences, but they are related to my arches and the sound I like for my violins, they may not be valid in any case. Anyway, I consider as "ideal" a height of the bar + the thickness of the top plate, between 14.8 and 15.8 mm, but in any case I derive this height referring to the tap-tone frequencies, the bending stiffness and the weight of the plate+bassbar assembly, so in the end each case it's a different case.
Hello Master: Incredible video series, very nice and detailed! Now I have a question: Why a void is left in each end of the bass bar and then the voids are (or it seems to me) closed by pressing it with the C clamps, when gluing? Is this for a reason? Doesn't this introduce a stress or torsion in the violin top? Best regards
Thanks! The greater curvature of the bassbar serves precisely to introduce a tension which, creating an upward thrust, in my opinion is useful to counterbalance the deformations caused by the tension of the strings. My theoretical idea behind this would be that when the violin is set up with the strings all the forces and tensions created are balanced by the structure, allowing the violin to stabilize on an ideal shape that can last over time. It is important to fit the bassbar accurately so that this flexion is very well spread along the lenght without creating twist. However, there are two schools of thought on the bassbar, with tension and without tension, I belong to the first. The main problem is that managing the tension is not easy because there is no fixed arrival point and it depends on the sensitivity of the maker to decide how much tension to put by evaluating the flexing with his hands, conversely to fit a bassbar perfectly without tension is more comfortable because you see objectively when the fit is perfect.
@@DavideSora Another violin maker I know of has said that the fingerboard will drop 1mm at the end of the fingerboard by the bridge, once tension is on the strings (so this has to be accounted for when measuring). Does adding the tension to the bass bar reduce this?
@@oicfas4523 The lowering of the fingerboard by about 1 mm can be considered physiological for a newly built violin, if it didn't deform at all it would most likely be too stiff to play well. The tension of the bassbar can help, but it's not the most decisive thing and it's not enough on its own. The entire structure of the violin must be built correctly if you want to keep this deformation within the "physiological" millimetre.
Gentile Davide Sora, forse la mia è una richiesta troppo scontata : avrebbe un video su come costruire la "culla" per il violino e una viola? e complimenti per il suo modo di operare e la realizzazione dei suoi video, grazie...
Si, il video è questo : th-cam.com/video/MsR_M28TfH8/w-d-xo.html Le viole hanno formati della cassa diversi (da 39 cm a 44 cm) e anche altezze delle bombature molto variabili, quindi la cosa migliore sarebbe adattare le misure della controforma (che gli inglesi chiamno poeticamente "culla"😊) alle dimensioni del tuo modello di viola e delle altezze delle tue bombature. Di supporto conviene farne uno solo per violino e viola, utilizzando la stessa vite centrale per entrambe le controforme in modo che si adatti perfettamente.
Hello, Mr. Davide Sora. I'm a violin maker from Adana-Turkey. I enjoy watching your videos. I have watched so many violin making videos so far, but no one was as detailed and enjoyable as your videos. Thank you very much for your share. I want to buy too, from the mini C clamps you use (the mini c clamps you fix the top plate). I think it's aluminum and light. Where can I get, I would appreciate if you give a link. wish you good work
Thanks! These C clamps are quite old, I had bought them at an hardware store (not specifically for violin making) here in Cremona in the '80s. I don't know where you can find them exactly the same, but any C clamp of the appropriate size and not too big and heavy can be fine. The silver ones are aluminum, the black ones are plastic (synthetic resin), the screws are iron. I think the Bessey mini clamps could work in the same way : www.cremonatools.com/bessey-aluminium-mini-clamp-am.html The dimensions are practically the same as my larger ones (the smaller ones would actually not be needed, but I don't have enough of the larger ones). Anyway, other types of clamps or locking system can also be used, the important thing is that they hold the top firmly against the frame without causing damage to the surface. Good work to you too.😊
For the viola I do as for the violin, i.e. about 7/9 length of the top, or at a distance of 45 mm from the edges. I make the height equal to that of the violin, the thickness about 0.5 mm more. I tried propolis but I don't like it as a varnish components, it's too soft and too sensitive to heat (thermoplastic), the propolis varnishes softens too much in the summer heat, and it takes the imprint of the case fabric and bridge feet, Moreover, If you use too much, its softness kill the sound. About my varnish, see these videos: th-cam.com/video/rf4lL8kiOQI/w-d-xo.html&pp=gAQBiAQB However, my varnish is not too easy to replicate, if you are a beginner in violin making I suggest you buy a ready-made varnish to gain experience, you can find specific ones for lutherie of good quality on the market. I'm talking about the actual varnish of the violin (to put on the outside), the bassbar is not varnished
Hi David, what is the name of the app you’re using and what frequency are you aiming for when tuning your bass bar/ top plate. Love the videos!!!!!!! You are truly a master luthier as well as video maker.
Thanks! The name of the app I use is gString. For what concerning the frequencies, as I say in the description below the video it is not possible to establish an ideal frequency as this must always be considered in relation to the weight and size of the plate and to the tonal response that the violinmaker aim for. Anyway, you can find this information about my preference in this video : th-cam.com/video/wa_QCwV5uBw/w-d-xo.html at time 5.38 (check the English translation below the video if you don't understand Italian). Also check this other video to know how to find these frequencies : th-cam.com/video/f6kCD4XtaZ4/w-d-xo.html
@@Runescape. Lutherie is not science, nor is it pseudo-science. The sensitivity of the craftsman is still the key aspect to obtain good acoustic results, today as it was in the 1700s. However, I believe that a scientific (or pseudo-scientific, as you call it) approach can be very useful in understanding something more about how violins work, and greater understanding means having more means at our disposal to sharpen our sensitivity. The tap tones of the free plates are only a measurement reference during construction, not a specific target to be reached at all costs. Frequencies are used in the same way you use the thickness gauge to measure thicknesses or calipers and rulers to measure widths, etc. None of these tools would be strictly necessary for the expert luthier, but using them can give handy references during construction, so I don't see a valid reason why not to use them.
While there is definitely a sense of nostalgia and artistic pride (for lack of a better word) in using knives, scrapers, and planes, is there an existential benefit to using these rather than a belt sander, powered scroll saw, or Dremel tool, etc?
Power tools are annoyingly noisy, produce noxious fine dust, can cause very serious injuries, and are not suitable for delicate jobs where the sensitivity of the worker plays a decisive role. The quality of the work with hand tools is infinitely better and more comfortable. Furthermore, as I see it, this is a traditional job that is worth preserving: by switching to the use of electrical or even computerized tools (CNC), all the precious knowledge of ancient working techniques would be irretrievably lost, and I believe that it is worth making your contribution to try to preserve it and pass it on to future generations. In particular for Cremonese violin makers, I believe it is almost a duty, as the knowledge and know-how of Cremonese violin making is inscribed from 2012 on the UNESCO Representative List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity, so I think we should try to keep ourselves up to this recognition and to think less about the business of making more and more violins using power tools😊
Good day ! Nice to watch your work. Please tell me, for cello 4/4, what are the sizes of bassbar and what distance is it set from the edges and center? Thank you so much !
Cellos 4/4 comes in a variety of size, from wide and short body to narrow and long, so give generic dimension is difficult. Anyway I usually apply the rule of 8 cm from the edges for the length, 3 mm inside the foot of the bridge for the position and subdivision into five parts of the upper and lower bout from the center to edge (instead of seven as on the violin) for the inclination. Thichness as the soundpost (usually 10,5 mm) and height as needed (usually from 23 to 25 mm)
I do this to ensure that the bassbar gives an upward push in the central part, to counteract the pressure of the bridge under the load of the strings. You can see this in detail in this video : th-cam.com/video/q2W-r6gdGs8/w-d-xo.html at the minute 11,30 The bassbar's curve must be more pronounced than that of the top, with a lifting at the ends of about 1 mm. Be sure that the curve is evenly distributed over the whole length, with a smooth rolling motion from one end to the other without moving of the vertical axis, so as not to cause torsional deformations of the plate after gluing. Make sure that the ends fit perfectly for a length of about 2 cm, to avoid concentrating too much tension in these points with possible risk of ungluing
Does the tension that is put into the bassbar affect the sound of the violin? Do you test the resonance to decide how much to shave off the top of the bassbar? Does the wood species of the bassbar affect the sound? What are you doing at 16:50 with the card that has a hole in it?
Yes, yes, and yes😊 Tension affects stiffness, which in turn affects resonance frequency, which can thus be used to control stiffness when shaving the bassbar. Different wood species have different stiffness and density which influence the mass and stiffness of the bassbar and so of the top plate, and so of the whole violin. This will surely affect the sound.
@@DavideSora How did you determine what the gap should be and how much you should shave off the bar once glued in place? Are there published books or articles on established dimensions that one can use for the general construction of the violin?
@@gary24752 There is no scientific rule for determining the amount of gap. it depends on the characteristics of the top without bassbar, if it is in itself very stiff I put less gap, if instead it is less stiff I increase it. To do this I rely mainly on resonance frequencies, and this also applies to the amount of material to be removed from the bassbar. The difficult thing to make a bassbar with tension is the distribution of the same, which must be concentrated in the central part excluding the extremes, which in the last 4 or 5 cm must be perfectly adapted without tension. The distribution of tension is based on sensations during the rolling of the bassbar which must be uniform and well balanced. Honestly, if I had to give advice to a beginner I would tell him to make the bassbar without tension, and only after learning how to do it perfectly this way (as many luthiers do, not everyone appreciates or considers tension useful) to try to do it with tension, which technically it is more difficult and can potentially do more harm than good if applied the wrong way. Regarding books, there are many. They explain how to make a violin providing all the measures, in a more or less detailed way, each with slightly different theories, just as each luthier thinks and work differently from another. They usually provide measurements for a symmetrical, tension-free traditional bassbar. What I do is slightly different, asymmetrical and with tension, based on what I have elaborated with my experience based on my violins.
Ciao Corrado, grazie per l'alta considerazione🤗 Si, rispetto a quella tradizionale la mia catena ha la massa centrale spostata più indietro e centrata sul ponticello. Lo faccio per diversi motivi, nessuno scientificamente certificato😊
@@DavideSora Una conferma! ...mi sa che tutti i liutai siano mossi da motivazioni che giungono, spesso, più dalla sensibilità ed intuizione, ancor prima che dalla misurazione. E per fortuna è così! Questa la ricetta per risultati unici, personali ed inimitabili. Grazie Master!!!🙏
Hello Davide, Is there a reason you made the bar's top straight rather than round? I guess it was because the top plate were a little bit on the softer side so you wanted better rigidity.
It has nothing to do with the properties of the top plate, I always make the bassbar with this shape. The main reason is more related to mass rather than stiffness, as I believe that a greater mass under the bridge is beneficial for bass response, projection and for the balance between the strings. Of course, the stiffness also increases a bit, but proportionally the mass does it to a greater extent because the central part is already very stiff in itself. In any case, my idea behind this shape is to concentrate the greater stiffness and mass of the bassbar under the bridge and in the F holes area (which is very mobile), leaving the upper part more elastic to improve upper bout mobility and so the treble response, and the lower part stiffer (thanks to the shift of the highest part under the bridge and not in the middle of the bassbar) to avoid eventual wolf tones issues. Not sure if other luthiers would agree, there are many different ideas about bassbar functions, but it make sense and works very well for me. Since I started doing it this way I have noticed improvements and have never looked back to the old classical shape. Many makers use the "classic" bassbar shape because they think that if everyone does it like this it must be fine, but few wonder why it is made that way and fewer try to reason and try to see if there might be a better way or simply a more personal way that works. I simply tried to reason and apply my reasoning, and I'm happy with the results 😊😇
I bought them more than 30 years ago in this shop here in Cremona, they had them made by an artisan but today they have changed the shape and they are no longer the same as mine (mine are better). www.all4violins.com/shop/attrezzatura/morsetti/m-880-20-morsetto-in-alluminio-per-catena-mm-130/ These are more like mine: www.dictum.com/en/clamps-jbk/aluminium-repair-clamps-5-piece-set-705894 Or you can find even better, but much more expensive...: violintools.com/product/the-alberti-c-clamp/
@@DavideSora Thank you very much for taking the time replying me with such detailed response. I have been exploring many options for bassbar clamps. There are also some I found that I am going to test on my next instrument. This specific one from this Herdim series (90mm jaw depth) is very lightweight and has well stretch tension at the jaw. However, it can only accommodate violins and barely viola. Clamps in the same series of other sizes become too heavy. (Personal Opinion) www.dictum.com/en/clamps-jbk/herdim-repair-clamp-jaw-depth-90-mm-735723 These ones from Gemini are made of carbon fiber. They are super lightweight and has enough sizes to accommodate all instruments, but the actually product is made very poorly which doesn't fit the expensive price tag, its jaw also has too stretchy of a tension. geminimusical.com/carbon-fiber-clamps.asp By the end of the day, a well fit bassbar shouldn't require too much "support" from clamps, but a good clamp makes the process happier. My name is Mike Pan, I enjoy you videos very much and study every single one of them. Am looking forward to more.
@@OnlyPans218 It seems that Herdim clamps are a good choice, too bad they are not found in larger dimensions to be used for the cello as well. Carbon fiber is also an excellent material, but they are often too elastic because manufacturers exaggerate with the weight reduction, when they could easily make them with larger sections, they would in any case be very light given the properties of the material. Titanium is also a great material for clamps, I had seen some repair clamps a few years ago but I can't find them on the web anymore, perhaps they were so expensive that they couldn't sell enough to justify continuing production.😄
大师你好，bassbar上方有一段很平的地方，与经典造型很不相同，请问这段长度怎么确定呢？（Ciao Guru, c'è una sezione molto piatta sopra la bassbar che è molto diversa dalla forma classica, come faccio a determinare la lunghezza di questa sezione?）
Non c'è una misura fissa, la lunghezza è circa quella delle effe. Se la frequenza del M5 della tavola o il peso della bassbar sono alti riduco la catena compresa la parte centrale, cercando il miglior compromesso tra dimensioni e peso della catena e frequenza del M5 della tavola
Does the middle part also make up one third of the total length? And does this not affect the responsiveness of the deck when tuning it, because with a massive Bass Bare when tapping, the sound of the deck is muffled?
Roughly one third, but not necessarily, approximately the length of the f-holes. I start with the central part longer than the f-holes and gradually reduce it during shaping, trying to get closer to the best ratio between stiffness and mass. A properly shaped bassbar is such that even when it is massive it makes a ringing sound and not muffled, because stiffness always overcome the effect of mass. Of course there is a limit to the mass that a bassbar can have to work well, but I do not believe that too light a mass is always adequate, even in this sense there is a limit. Finding the right balance with the top plate is the key.
@@kazimierzwirpszo6050 No, I'm using the phone's microphone. You have to keep it as close as possible to the plate and place it in the antinode areas of the Mode you are trying to measure. If you put it on a nodal line there is no vibration and it will not detect the frequency. To find the nodal/antinodal areas see this video: th-cam.com/video/f6kCD4XtaZ4/w-d-xo.html The microphone must be positioned in the points marked with the A (Ascolto=listening points) marked in the image you see here : th-cam.com/video/f6kCD4XtaZ4/w-d-xo.html
I don't varnish the bassbar, I just give it a light pass of casein to seal the surface and limit moisture absorption. Find in this video the recipe for the casein sealer I use: th-cam.com/video/b_7MSws6wcU/w-d-xo.html The bridge must not be varnished and can be left as it is, i.e. bare wood. I just give it a very very light coat of cooked linseed oil to protect it a little from moisture absorption. But be careful, the oil absolutely must not penetrate deeply otherwise it kills the sound. See this video: th-cam.com/video/rTOawqEucGA/w-d-xo.html if you don't want to take any chances, leave it bare wood
What length of bassbar do you make? I did 276 mm with a 355 mm body. Now a found from one book what author make 270 mm bassbar with a 355 mm body. I also looked at one drawing of a stradivari violin and it also looks close to 270mm bassbar with a 355 mm body. As for this particular stradivari violin, we do not know whether the bassbar could have been replaced there or the original is.
A general rule of thumb is to make the bassbar 7/9 of the length of the plate, which is 276 for a 355 plate. Another in my opinion more accurate rule, which is the one I use, is to finish the bassbar at a distance of 4 cm from the edges, which will adapt better to the length of the plate where the bassbar lies, because the parts that remain free from the bassbar will affect the elasticity of the fluting of the arching. This will also adapt better to different lengths of the plate, which is not always exactly 355 mm, and moreover it depends on where you measure it (in a straight line with the caliper or above the arching with a flexible ruler, on the centerline, on the side of the neck, on bassbar line). Many always make a standard length of 270mm, but I prefer to adapt it better to the length of the plate with the previous system. Although I confess that a few mm in length does not make a big difference, I think it is more important to standardize the distance from the edge and therefore the width of the free parts, rather than the length of the bassbar itself . All Stradivari instruments have non-original bassbars, they have all been replaced by restorers (as well as almost all the necks) because the baroque bassbars were very thin and would be unsuitable for a modern set up.
@@DavideSora arching starts from the inside of a plate at 21 mm from top, 19 mm from bottom and 7mm from sides. I have 40 mm from the edge of a plate to a bassbar end from both sides and have 2mm difference from arching begining at top and bottom bassbar ends. I measure with a ruler. 40 mm is parallel to a centerline.
@@los5mandarinas I measure 40mm from the ends of the bassbar to the edges, following the line of the bassbar, although the resulting small differences are probably negligible. An important thing, however, is that the bassbar is inside the inflection points of the arching, i.e. those points where the curve changes from convex to concave (seen from the outside, fluting area is the concave one). The bassbar must (in my opinion) stay well within the convex curve, otherwise it would block too much elasticity at the edges. A couple of millimeters in the up or down position do not have much influence on the stiffness, only on the position of the mass, but even here it would be difficult to notice them. Of course they would have a great influence in the lateral position, ie with respect to the foot of the bridge.
Why not? It works so well.....😇 The idea is to move the mass down to improve the center of gravity of the table and to increase the mass under the bridge and in the area between F-holes that is the most mobile, leaving the upper part more flexible to improve high frequency modes mobility. But in the end my shape is not very different from a traditional bassbar, just reinterpreted.😊
La frequenza del M5. Puoi guardare questo video per capire quali sono le frequenze che si sentono nelle tavole del violino: th-cam.com/video/f6kCD4XtaZ4/w-d-xo.html
Hi David. Iv been reading alot of things on the bass bar that line up with the diagram in this video. As with the reading material, this diagram is confusing me. It seems there are too many constants in the drawing. Should the bar be centered vertically, then lined up with the 1/7 divisions, then flexed to the side to line up 1mm inside the bridge foot?
The 1/7 marks on the upper and lower bouts are only used to give the bassbar tilt, but do not indicate its exact position. The only exact reference for the position is at the bridge, i.e. 1 mm inside the outer edge of the foot. Once positioned correctly on the bridge, it must be kept parallel to the 1/7 marks to obtain the correct tilt (on some models it will coincide with these 1/7 marks but on other models it will not, it depends on the ratio between the widths of the outline and the width of the bridge, which may vary). The tilt of the bassbar can be varied without respecting the 1/7 marks, while the position at the bridge foot must always be respected because it is related to the position of the soundpost. All the diagrams you see for the bassbar must be interpreted in this way, i.e. the most important criterion for deciding the position is established only by the bridge.
@@DavideSora oh I see. On my model, this gives a very small tilt. 0.7 degrees from the centerline. Does this not seem very small? Also, do you know why the bar is not centered under the bridge foot?
@@shawncrocker7037 I had never measured the actual angle of the bassbar because it is quite difficult to accurately measure such small angles, but I did a quick test and an angle of about 1 degree came out, so your 0.7 could be correct (I don't have such an accurate protractor and I don't draw on the computer). This angle derives from a violin with the upper width of 168 mm and the lower one of 208 mm. What the widths of your model are and how do you measure this angle? The bassbar is placed more outside the center of the bridge foot to increase the lever arm between the soundpost and the bassbar, increasing the amplitude of the movement of the bridge that drives the bassbar during vibration. Sometimes it can also be moved further out until it is flush with the outer edge of the foot (only if needed). However, even the ankle of the foot of the bridge is not centered on the foot, some luthiers move the ankle further out to try to center it on the bassbar, but this area is so stiff that there is no need for an extremely precise relationship between the position of the ankle and the bassbar to make the system work.
@@DavideSora oh thanks. I have not measured those particular measurements yet(my model in only on the computer at the moment and it was created through other geometric relationships) however, by eye, there is slightly less of a differential between the upper and lower bout widths. Thanks for the great description of the bass bar alignment to the bridge foot. It makes sense mechanically to me.
@@shawncrocker7037 Of course, if the widths vary in a non-proportional way the tilt of the bassbar changes accordingly, normally in the ancient Cremonese violins the ratio between the upper and lower widths is 4:5, even if it is calculated on the width of the form and not of the plates. However, the inclination of the bassbar can be changed in various way, from parallel to the centerline to very tilted, I think a little of everything has been tried, sometimes even with success. The only really fundamental thing is to remember to put it on...😊
I suppose you are referring to the thickness of the plastic strip that I insert under the bassbar ends. If this is the case it has a thickness of 0.8 mm
The right measure😅 All joking aside, there isn't an ideal size, it depends on the stiffness of the top plate, the shape and height of the arching, the thicknesses, and the frequencies of the vibration modes. But to better understand, are you building a viola, or do you want to change the bassbar to an already built viola? I'm sorry, but I have some difficulty understanding your English, perhaps using the Google translator you would get better results, and more understandable for me. Where are you from and what is your language?
@@DavideSora Ok. Thank you, Mr. Davide Sora. In my opinion, at that moment it was one of the technological developments along with the progress of the times. We use the tuner application from the smartphone to make it easy to find pitch on the violin wood plate.
@@onair9905 Yes, the discovery of electricity has changed several aspects, the most important is that we use the table lamps to better see what we do.😊 In the case of the tuner, if we had any musical instrument at hand, it would be more than enough to identify the pitch of the plates, since tuning to the cent (or to the Hertz) is not essential at all. But an electronic tuner is undoubtedly a practical and cheap solution.
😆Unforeseen events of the live broadcast! 😆😆 Luckily I had already put the clamp, so the clothespin that shot off had already fulfilled its task of keeping the underlying protection in position and was no longer needed.
Don't even try to place the bassbar in the center of the table, you need an asymmetrical position to be able to produce the sound, if it were central and therefore symmetrical the volume of the sound would be greatly reduced
Comme d'habitude ,....Excellent travail maestro DAVIDE, vous êtes une référence dans le monde de la lutherie ....
Maestro io credo che nessuno è riuscoto mai a condividere cosi tanto nel dettagliato la costruzione del violino..grazie a te ho imparato molto
Il tuo lavoro è meraviglioso, Maestro Para, uno spettacolo per gli occhi irritati. Grazie per aver condiviso . Saluti dal Brasile, dall'allievo dal maestro liutaio Marcello Martinenghi
18 minutes felt like 5 minutes :) , you are a modern day stradivarius
Absolutely formidable.
Thank you. I learned a lot
Hi Davide, thank you very much for this video and all the others, helping me tremendiously in my own learning. As I'm about to install my first bass bar, I'm quite interested in this video. I see at 2:22 that the bass bar frame is already a bit tilted and not flat. Later you create a gap between the bass bar ends and the plate to generate additional tension (what you indicated also in the different comments below). For the bass bar frame, what's your radius you implemented on the surface? seems to be 2-3 mm? Wouldn't it be enough to have a flat surface and increase the gap under the bass bar ends or the other way round, have the frame more curved and then glue the bass bar without the gap & tension? did I miss something? thanks in advance !
The purpose of the frame is to reproduce the rib's profile so that the bassbar can be fitted to the top plate in the closed soundbox condition. The tilt is 1.5 mm, these are two staggered planes (there are no curves) that meet at an angle at the upper corners. The slight curvature (usually but improperly called tension) that I put in the bar is not intended to introduce any real tension, but only to prevent its curvature in the opposite direction (light in the center) due to the release of the internal tensions of the wood when the bar will be shaped after gluing. If I didn't use the frame that reproduces the tilt of the ribs, I would be forced to put a lot of tension in the bar (more than 2 mm), and it would have to be placed asymmetrically, concentrating it only in the upper part, which would prevent the greater curvature of the bar compared to that of the plate from being distributed smoothly, which I believe could be harmful to the structure and the sound. The curvature (tension) that I put into the bar will be almost canceled out when the soundbox is assembled, what remains is the tension of the entire upper part of the top plate introduced by the tilt in the ribs, which is useful to counteract the longitudinal bending of the soundbox under the string's tension and the leverage of the neck. At least these are the factors that in my opinion justifies the staggered tilt in the ribs typical of the old Cremonese masters, I don't like that there is too much residual tension in the bassbar with the violin in playing conditions. Ideally, with the tension of the strings, a tension-free equilibrium condition should be achieved in the bar and plate, in order to allow greater freedom of vibration.
Sorry for the long-winded answer, but the topic is rather complex and it is always difficult (impossible) to isolate a single element from the entire structure of the violin.
@@DavideSora (just seeing that my initial response disappeared, so I respond again): thank you very much for your detailed answers. I'll start with the bass bar work probably this weekend and I'll see how it goes 🙂 thank you very much again !
@@Violin-Lover-4 I don't know why, but these disappearances happen every now and then. Sorry, it's not my fault, I didn't ban your reply.🙂
Davvero complimenti. Guardare i tuoi filmati è sempre estremamente interessante nonchè rilassante e coinvolgente al tempo stesso.
Per passione costruisco nel tempo libero chitarre; nulla di paragonabile ai tuoi meravigliosi violini; ho trovato comunuqe di grande ispirazione e aiuto molto tuoi video durante la costruzione di una chitarra archtop che ho costruito lo scorso anno..
Grazie mille! un saluto da rimini
Grazie!
Le archtop sono bellissime😉
Beautiful everything about the violin from the craftmanship too the sound of the instrument Beautiful
Greetings Davide: Just out of curiosity what would be the usual M2 frequency (with F holes and bassbar), before varnishing? Thank you again for your continuous posts and support.
For me the D#/C# range is a good spot for the M2 (156 Hz to 138 Hz). An old theory (Hutchins) wanted it around F/F#, exactly an octave lower than the M5, but to obtain this would require thicknesses that are too high and arching too low for my tastes, and in any case, there is no point in trying to tune the M5 and the M2 to exact frequency or ratio.
Ma quanto siete bravo mastro!
Hi Maestro, I've been doing this job for 20 years. There is no better explanation than yours. thanks. How high should the bas-bar height be? Does the bass increase as the height increases? What is the ideal measure for balance?
Unfortunately there is no ideal height because, as you probably know, it depends on the top plate properties (arch shape and stiffness, wood properties) to which the bar is glued. Of course I have my preferences, but they are related to my arches and the sound I like for my violins, they may not be valid in any case. Anyway, I consider as "ideal" a height of the bar + the thickness of the top plate, between 14.8 and 15.8 mm, but in any case I derive this height referring to the tap-tone frequencies, the bending stiffness and the weight of the plate+bassbar assembly, so in the end each case it's a different case.
Hello Master: Incredible video series, very nice and detailed! Now I have a question: Why a void is left in each end of the bass bar and then the voids are (or it seems to me) closed by pressing it with the C clamps, when gluing? Is this for a reason? Doesn't this introduce a stress or torsion in the violin top? Best regards
Thanks!
The greater curvature of the bassbar serves precisely to introduce a tension which, creating an upward thrust, in my opinion is useful to counterbalance the deformations caused by the tension of the strings. My theoretical idea behind this would be that when the violin is set up with the strings all the forces and tensions created are balanced by the structure, allowing the violin to stabilize on an ideal shape that can last over time. It is important to fit the bassbar accurately so that this flexion is very well spread along the lenght without creating twist.
However, there are two schools of thought on the bassbar, with tension and without tension, I belong to the first. The main problem is that managing the tension is not easy because there is no fixed arrival point and it depends on the sensitivity of the maker to decide how much tension to put by evaluating the flexing with his hands, conversely to fit a bassbar perfectly without tension is more comfortable because you see objectively when the fit is perfect.
@@DavideSora Another violin maker I know of has said that the fingerboard will drop 1mm at the end of the fingerboard by the bridge, once tension is on the strings (so this has to be accounted for when measuring). Does adding the tension to the bass bar reduce this?
@@oicfas4523 The lowering of the fingerboard by about 1 mm can be considered physiological for a newly built violin, if it didn't deform at all it would most likely be too stiff to play well. The tension of the bassbar can help, but it's not the most decisive thing and it's not enough on its own. The entire structure of the violin must be built correctly if you want to keep this deformation within the "physiological" millimetre.
Very Nice Work!!
Gentile Davide Sora, forse la mia è una richiesta troppo scontata : avrebbe un video su come costruire la "culla" per il violino e una viola? e complimenti per il suo modo di operare e la realizzazione dei suoi video, grazie...
Si, il video è questo : th-cam.com/video/MsR_M28TfH8/w-d-xo.html
Le viole hanno formati della cassa diversi (da 39 cm a 44 cm) e anche altezze delle bombature molto variabili, quindi la cosa migliore sarebbe adattare le misure della controforma (che gli inglesi chiamno poeticamente "culla"😊) alle dimensioni del tuo modello di viola e delle altezze delle tue bombature. Di supporto conviene farne uno solo per violino e viola, utilizzando la stessa vite centrale per entrambe le controforme in modo che si adatti perfettamente.
@@DavideSora grazie della risposta, esaustiva e gentile, buona giornata e buone cose...
Hello, Mr. Davide Sora. I'm a violin maker from Adana-Turkey. I enjoy watching your videos. I have watched so many violin making videos so far, but no one was as detailed and enjoyable as your videos. Thank you very much for your share. I want to buy too, from the mini C clamps you use (the mini c clamps you fix the top plate). I think it's aluminum and light. Where can I get, I would appreciate if you give a link. wish you good work
Thanks!
These C clamps are quite old, I had bought them at an hardware store (not specifically for violin making) here in Cremona in the '80s.
I don't know where you can find them exactly the same, but any C clamp of the appropriate size and not too big and heavy can be fine.
The silver ones are aluminum, the black ones are plastic (synthetic resin), the screws are iron.
I think the Bessey mini clamps could work in the same way : www.cremonatools.com/bessey-aluminium-mini-clamp-am.html
The dimensions are practically the same as my larger ones (the smaller ones would actually not be needed, but I don't have enough of the larger ones). Anyway, other types of clamps or locking system can also be used, the important thing is that they hold the top firmly against the frame without causing damage to the surface.
Good work to you too.😊
Thank you master. I'm looking forward to your new videos. wish you good work. I offer you my best regards@@DavideSora
Hi maestro
Bassbar for viola
How long hig thicknes
I'm ged questions
Wat u use for good tone varnish,propolis ????
Or something different
For the viola I do as for the violin, i.e. about 7/9 length of the top, or at a distance of 45 mm from the edges. I make the height equal to that of the violin, the thickness about 0.5 mm more.
I tried propolis but I don't like it as a varnish components, it's too soft and too sensitive to heat (thermoplastic), the propolis varnishes softens too much in the summer heat, and it takes the imprint of the case fabric and bridge feet, Moreover, If you use too much, its softness kill the sound.
About my varnish, see these videos:
th-cam.com/video/rf4lL8kiOQI/w-d-xo.html&pp=gAQBiAQB
However, my varnish is not too easy to replicate, if you are a beginner in violin making I suggest you buy a ready-made varnish to gain experience, you can find specific ones for lutherie of good quality on the market.
I'm talking about the actual varnish of the violin (to put on the outside), the bassbar is not varnished
Hi David, what is the name of the app you’re using and what frequency are you aiming for when tuning your bass bar/ top plate. Love the videos!!!!!!! You are truly a master luthier as well as video maker.
Thanks!
The name of the app I use is gString. For what concerning the frequencies, as I say in the description below the video it is not possible to establish an ideal frequency as this must always be considered in relation to the weight and size of the plate and to the tonal response that the violinmaker aim for. Anyway, you can find this information about my preference in this video : th-cam.com/video/wa_QCwV5uBw/w-d-xo.html at time 5.38 (check the English translation below the video if you don't understand Italian).
Also check this other video to know how to find these frequencies : th-cam.com/video/f6kCD4XtaZ4/w-d-xo.html
@@DavideSora in other words it is pseudo science bull. as i suspected. no one has any answers for this including people who tap "by ear"
@@Runescape. Lutherie is not science, nor is it pseudo-science. The sensitivity of the craftsman is still the key aspect to obtain good acoustic results, today as it was in the 1700s. However, I believe that a scientific (or pseudo-scientific, as you call it) approach can be very useful in understanding something more about how violins work, and greater understanding means having more means at our disposal to sharpen our sensitivity. The tap tones of the free plates are only a measurement reference during construction, not a specific target to be reached at all costs.
Frequencies are used in the same way you use the thickness gauge to measure thicknesses or calipers and rulers to measure widths, etc. None of these tools would be strictly necessary for the expert luthier, but using them can give handy references during construction, so I don't see a valid reason why not to use them.
Parabéns mestre David
While there is definitely a sense of nostalgia and artistic pride (for lack of a better word) in using knives, scrapers, and planes, is there an existential benefit to using these rather than a belt sander, powered scroll saw, or Dremel tool, etc?
Power tools are annoyingly noisy, produce noxious fine dust, can cause very serious injuries, and are not suitable for delicate jobs where the sensitivity of the worker plays a decisive role. The quality of the work with hand tools is infinitely better and more comfortable. Furthermore, as I see it, this is a traditional job that is worth preserving: by switching to the use of electrical or even computerized tools (CNC), all the precious knowledge of ancient working techniques would be irretrievably lost, and I believe that it is worth making your contribution to try to preserve it and pass it on to future generations. In particular for Cremonese violin makers, I believe it is almost a duty, as the knowledge and know-how of Cremonese violin making is inscribed from 2012 on the UNESCO Representative List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity, so I think we should try to keep ourselves up to this recognition and to think less about the business of making more and more violins using power tools😊
Hi Davide , what kind of animal glue are you using?i believe i use bone glue (little bit brownish)
It's hide glue, but bone glue could work too. Hide glue is a bit better because it's less brittle than bone glue
Good day ! Nice to watch your work. Please tell me, for cello 4/4, what are the sizes of bassbar and what distance is it set from the edges and center? Thank you so much !
Cellos 4/4 comes in a variety of size, from wide and short body to narrow and long, so give generic dimension is difficult. Anyway I usually apply the rule of 8 cm from the edges for the length, 3 mm inside the foot of the bridge for the position and subdivision into five parts of the upper and lower bout from the center to edge (instead of seven as on the violin) for the inclination. Thichness as the soundpost (usually 10,5 mm) and height as needed (usually from 23 to 25 mm)
@@DavideSora Thank you very much !!!!!!
Hi Maestro David
I just wonder bass bar at 10;45 is not fully touch but you did glue it.I did not figure it out why?
Thanks .
I do this to ensure that the bassbar gives an upward push in the central part, to counteract the pressure of the bridge under the load of the strings. You can see this in detail in this video : th-cam.com/video/q2W-r6gdGs8/w-d-xo.html at the minute 11,30
The bassbar's curve must be more pronounced than that of the top, with a lifting at the ends of about 1 mm. Be sure that the curve is evenly distributed over the whole length, with a smooth rolling motion from one end to the other without moving of the vertical axis, so as not to cause torsional deformations of the plate after gluing. Make sure that the ends fit perfectly for a length of about 2 cm, to avoid concentrating too much tension in these points with possible risk of ungluing
Does the tension that is put into the bassbar affect the sound of the violin? Do you test the resonance to decide how much to shave off the top of the bassbar? Does the wood species of the bassbar affect the sound? What are you doing at 16:50 with the card that has a hole in it?
Yes, yes, and yes😊 Tension affects stiffness, which in turn affects resonance frequency, which can thus be used to control stiffness when shaving the bassbar. Different wood species have different stiffness and density which influence the mass and stiffness of the bassbar and so of the top plate, and so of the whole violin. This will surely affect the sound.
@@DavideSora How did you determine what the gap should be and how much you should shave off the bar once glued in place? Are there published books or articles on established dimensions that one can use for the general construction of the violin?
@@gary24752 There is no scientific rule for determining the amount of gap. it depends on the characteristics of the top without bassbar, if it is in itself very stiff I put less gap, if instead it is less stiff I increase it. To do this I rely mainly on resonance frequencies, and this also applies to the amount of material to be removed from the bassbar. The difficult thing to make a bassbar with tension is the distribution of the same, which must be concentrated in the central part excluding the extremes, which in the last 4 or 5 cm must be perfectly adapted without tension. The distribution of tension is based on sensations during the rolling of the bassbar which must be uniform and well balanced.
Honestly, if I had to give advice to a beginner I would tell him to make the bassbar without tension, and only after learning how to do it perfectly this way (as many luthiers do, not everyone appreciates or considers tension useful) to try to do it with tension, which technically it is more difficult and can potentially do more harm than good if applied the wrong way.
Regarding books, there are many. They explain how to make a violin providing all the measures, in a more or less detailed way, each with slightly different theories, just as each luthier thinks and work differently from another. They usually provide measurements for a symmetrical, tension-free traditional bassbar. What I do is slightly different, asymmetrical and with tension, based on what I have elaborated with my experience based on my violins.
Ciao Maestrissimo!...sempre fenomenale; superfluo ogni commento.
Ma è una mia impressione o la costruisci in modo asimmetrico...?
Grande!!!🤗
Ciao Corrado, grazie per l'alta considerazione🤗
Si, rispetto a quella tradizionale la mia catena ha la massa centrale spostata più indietro e centrata sul ponticello. Lo faccio per diversi motivi, nessuno scientificamente certificato😊
@@DavideSora Una conferma! ...mi sa che tutti i liutai siano mossi da motivazioni che giungono, spesso, più dalla sensibilità ed intuizione, ancor prima che dalla misurazione.
E per fortuna è così!
Questa la ricetta per risultati unici, personali ed inimitabili.
Grazie Master!!!🙏
Hello Davide, Is there a reason you made the bar's top straight rather than round? I guess it was because the top plate were a little bit on the softer side so you wanted better rigidity.
It has nothing to do with the properties of the top plate, I always make the bassbar with this shape. The main reason is more related to mass rather than stiffness, as I believe that a greater mass under the bridge is beneficial for bass response, projection and for the balance between the strings. Of course, the stiffness also increases a bit, but proportionally the mass does it to a greater extent because the central part is already very stiff in itself. In any case, my idea behind this shape is to concentrate the greater stiffness and mass of the bassbar under the bridge and in the F holes area (which is very mobile), leaving the upper part more elastic to improve upper bout mobility and so the treble response, and the lower part stiffer (thanks to the shift of the highest part under the bridge and not in the middle of the bassbar) to avoid eventual wolf tones issues. Not sure if other luthiers would agree, there are many different ideas about bassbar functions, but it make sense and works very well for me. Since I started doing it this way I have noticed improvements and have never looked back to the old classical shape. Many makers use the "classic" bassbar shape because they think that if everyone does it like this it must be fine, but few wonder why it is made that way and fewer try to reason and try to see if there might be a better way or simply a more personal way that works. I simply tried to reason and apply my reasoning, and I'm happy with the results 😊😇
@@DavideSora Thank you very much for your detailed explanation, I always trust your experiences. I must try this new shape on my next bar!
Maestro, where and what are these wonderful clamps you have acquired? Trying very hard to find some of these.
I bought them more than 30 years ago in this shop here in Cremona, they had them made by an artisan but today they have changed the shape and they are no longer the same as mine (mine are better). www.all4violins.com/shop/attrezzatura/morsetti/m-880-20-morsetto-in-alluminio-per-catena-mm-130/
These are more like mine: www.dictum.com/en/clamps-jbk/aluminium-repair-clamps-5-piece-set-705894
Or you can find even better, but much more expensive...: violintools.com/product/the-alberti-c-clamp/
@@DavideSora Thank you very much for taking the time replying me with such detailed response. I have been exploring many options for bassbar clamps.
There are also some I found that I am going to test on my next instrument.
This specific one from this Herdim series (90mm jaw depth) is very lightweight and has well stretch tension at the jaw. However, it can only accommodate violins and barely viola. Clamps in the same series of other sizes become too heavy. (Personal Opinion)
www.dictum.com/en/clamps-jbk/herdim-repair-clamp-jaw-depth-90-mm-735723
These ones from Gemini are made of carbon fiber. They are super lightweight and has enough sizes to accommodate all instruments, but the actually product is made very poorly which doesn't fit the expensive price tag, its jaw also has too stretchy of a tension.
geminimusical.com/carbon-fiber-clamps.asp
By the end of the day, a well fit bassbar shouldn't require too much "support" from clamps, but a good clamp makes the process happier.
My name is Mike Pan, I enjoy you videos very much and study every single one of them. Am looking forward to more.
@@OnlyPans218 It seems that Herdim clamps are a good choice, too bad they are not found in larger dimensions to be used for the cello as well. Carbon fiber is also an excellent material, but they are often too elastic because manufacturers exaggerate with the weight reduction, when they could easily make them with larger sections, they would in any case be very light given the properties of the material. Titanium is also a great material for clamps, I had seen some repair clamps a few years ago but I can't find them on the web anymore, perhaps they were so expensive that they couldn't sell enough to justify continuing production.😄
@@DavideSora Indeed.
大师你好，bassbar上方有一段很平的地方，与经典造型很不相同，请问这段长度怎么确定呢？（Ciao Guru, c'è una sezione molto piatta sopra la bassbar che è molto diversa dalla forma classica, come faccio a determinare la lunghezza di questa sezione?）
Non c'è una misura fissa, la lunghezza è circa quella delle effe. Se la frequenza del M5 della tavola o il peso della bassbar sono alti riduco la catena compresa la parte centrale, cercando il miglior compromesso tra dimensioni e peso della catena e frequenza del M5 della tavola
@@DavideSora Grazie mille per la risposta!
Does the middle part also make up one third of the total length? And does this not affect the responsiveness of the deck when tuning it, because with a massive Bass Bare when tapping, the sound of the deck is muffled?
Roughly one third, but not necessarily, approximately the length of the f-holes. I start with the central part longer than the f-holes and gradually reduce it during shaping, trying to get closer to the best ratio between stiffness and mass. A properly shaped bassbar is such that even when it is massive it makes a ringing sound and not muffled, because stiffness always overcome the effect of mass.
Of course there is a limit to the mass that a bassbar can have to work well, but I do not believe that too light a mass is always adequate, even in this sense there is a limit. Finding the right balance with the top plate is the key.
Hello Master ! What app are you using on your telephone? I'm interested to measure the frequency of tap tone with this app . Great video. Thanks
The App I use is gString, but any chromatic tuner that indicates the frequency is fine
@@DavideSora Hi Master! Do you use microphone? I have this program, but in my case it not works correctly. Any advice ?
@@kazimierzwirpszo6050 No, I'm using the phone's microphone. You have to keep it as close as possible to the plate and place it in the antinode areas of the Mode you are trying to measure. If you put it on a nodal line there is no vibration and it will not detect the frequency. To find the nodal/antinodal areas see this video:
th-cam.com/video/f6kCD4XtaZ4/w-d-xo.html
The microphone must be positioned in the points marked with the A (Ascolto=listening points) marked in the image you see here : th-cam.com/video/f6kCD4XtaZ4/w-d-xo.html
I'm interested wat I'm need use for
Bassbar varnish propolis or something dyfrent
& for bridge you maestro use something for good sound
I don't varnish the bassbar, I just give it a light pass of casein to seal the surface and limit moisture absorption.
Find in this video the recipe for the casein sealer I use:
th-cam.com/video/b_7MSws6wcU/w-d-xo.html
The bridge must not be varnished and can be left as it is, i.e. bare wood. I just give it a very very light coat of cooked linseed oil to protect it a little from moisture absorption. But be careful, the oil absolutely must not penetrate deeply otherwise it kills the sound.
See this video:
th-cam.com/video/rTOawqEucGA/w-d-xo.html
if you don't want to take any chances, leave it bare wood
Fabulous !
Thanks!
@@DavideSora Please feel welcome to watch !
th-cam.com/video/Kr6csUQ8jBc/w-d-xo.html
hi from greece... which program is the one you have on your phone.?
It is a tuner called gString
@@DavideSora thank you so much 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🎻♥️
What length of bassbar do you make? I did 276 mm with a 355 mm body. Now a found from one book what author make 270 mm bassbar with a 355 mm body. I also looked at one drawing of a stradivari violin and it also looks close to 270mm bassbar with a 355 mm body. As for this particular stradivari violin, we do not know whether the bassbar could have been replaced there or the original is.
A general rule of thumb is to make the bassbar 7/9 of the length of the plate, which is 276 for a 355 plate. Another in my opinion more accurate rule, which is the one I use, is to finish the bassbar at a distance of 4 cm from the edges, which will adapt better to the length of the plate where the bassbar lies, because the parts that remain free from the bassbar will affect the elasticity of the fluting of the arching. This will also adapt better to different lengths of the plate, which is not always exactly 355 mm, and moreover it depends on where you measure it (in a straight line with the caliper or above the arching with a flexible ruler, on the centerline, on the side of the neck, on bassbar line). Many always make a standard length of 270mm, but I prefer to adapt it better to the length of the plate with the previous system. Although I confess that a few mm in length does not make a big difference, I think it is more important to standardize the distance from the edge and therefore the width of the free parts, rather than the length of the bassbar itself .
All Stradivari instruments have non-original bassbars, they have all been replaced by restorers (as well as almost all the necks) because the baroque bassbars were very thin and would be unsuitable for a modern set up.
@@DavideSora I have about 40 mm from the edges and 19 and 21 mm from the beginning of the arch. 19 mm - up side and 21 mm bottom
@@los5mandarinas What do you mean by the beginning of the arching and how do you take these measures?
@@DavideSora arching starts from the inside of a plate at 21 mm from top, 19 mm from bottom and 7mm from sides. I have 40 mm from the edge of a plate to a bassbar end from both sides and have 2mm difference from arching begining at top and bottom bassbar ends. I measure with a ruler. 40 mm is parallel to a centerline.
@@los5mandarinas I measure 40mm from the ends of the bassbar to the edges, following the line of the bassbar, although the resulting small differences are probably negligible. An important thing, however, is that the bassbar is inside the inflection points of the arching, i.e. those points where the curve changes from convex to concave (seen from the outside, fluting area is the concave one). The bassbar must (in my opinion) stay well within the convex curve, otherwise it would block too much elasticity at the edges. A couple of millimeters in the up or down position do not have much influence on the stiffness, only on the position of the mass, but even here it would be difficult to notice them. Of course they would have a great influence in the lateral position, ie with respect to the foot of the bridge.
David, why such a form of Bass Bar, I think you understand what I'm talking about?
Why not? It works so well.....😇 The idea is to move the mass down to improve the center of gravity of the table and to increase the mass under the bridge and in the area between F-holes that is the most mobile, leaving the upper part more flexible to improve high frequency modes mobility.
But in the end my shape is not very different from a traditional bassbar, just reinterpreted.😊
God morning
I'm ged questions
Wat hapen wen center bass bar viola
Sorry, I don't understand. Do you mean if you put the bassbar on the centerline?
Good morning
Hi
Wat hapen wen center bassbar hight 24 mm
Edge 12 mm
Viola 410 mm
Are you sure you've taken the right measurements? The ones you indicate are cello measures!!
Quando hai toccato la piastra del violino, quale frequenza stavi cercando?
La frequenza del M5. Puoi guardare questo video per capire quali sono le frequenze che si sentono nelle tavole del violino: th-cam.com/video/f6kCD4XtaZ4/w-d-xo.html
I'm from Poland I'm live chicago
Is that cattle glue?
Yes
Hi David. Iv been reading alot of things on the bass bar that line up with the diagram in this video. As with the reading material, this diagram is confusing me. It seems there are too many constants in the drawing. Should the bar be centered vertically, then lined up with the 1/7 divisions, then flexed to the side to line up 1mm inside the bridge foot?
The 1/7 marks on the upper and lower bouts are only used to give the bassbar tilt, but do not indicate its exact position. The only exact reference for the position is at the bridge, i.e. 1 mm inside the outer edge of the foot. Once positioned correctly on the bridge, it must be kept parallel to the 1/7 marks to obtain the correct tilt (on some models it will coincide with these 1/7 marks but on other models it will not, it depends on the ratio between the widths of the outline and the width of the bridge, which may vary). The tilt of the bassbar can be varied without respecting the 1/7 marks, while the position at the bridge foot must always be respected because it is related to the position of the soundpost. All the diagrams you see for the bassbar must be interpreted in this way, i.e. the most important criterion for deciding the position is established only by the bridge.
@@DavideSora oh I see. On my model, this gives a very small tilt. 0.7 degrees from the centerline. Does this not seem very small? Also, do you know why the bar is not centered under the bridge foot?
@@shawncrocker7037 I had never measured the actual angle of the bassbar because it is quite difficult to accurately measure such small angles, but I did a quick test and an angle of about 1 degree came out, so your 0.7 could be correct (I don't have such an accurate protractor and I don't draw on the computer). This angle derives from a violin with the upper width of 168 mm and the lower one of 208 mm. What the widths of your model are and how do you measure this angle?
The bassbar is placed more outside the center of the bridge foot to increase the lever arm between the soundpost and the bassbar, increasing the amplitude of the movement of the bridge that drives the bassbar during vibration. Sometimes it can also be moved further out until it is flush with the outer edge of the foot (only if needed). However, even the ankle of the foot of the bridge is not centered on the foot, some luthiers move the ankle further out to try to center it on the bassbar, but this area is so stiff that there is no need for an extremely precise relationship between the position of the ankle and the bassbar to make the system work.
@@DavideSora oh thanks. I have not measured those particular measurements yet(my model in only on the computer at the moment and it was created through other geometric relationships) however, by eye, there is slightly less of a differential between the upper and lower bout widths. Thanks for the great description of the bass bar alignment to the bridge foot. It makes sense mechanically to me.
@@shawncrocker7037 Of course, if the widths vary in a non-proportional way the tilt of the bassbar changes accordingly, normally in the ancient Cremonese violins the ratio between the upper and lower widths is 4:5, even if it is calculated on the width of the form and not of the plates. However, the inclination of the bassbar can be changed in various way, from parallel to the centerline to very tilted, I think a little of everything has been tried, sometimes even with success. The only really fundamental thing is to remember to put it on...😊
10:47 How much is the thickness ?
I suppose you are referring to the thickness of the plastic strip that I insert under the bassbar ends. If this is the case it has a thickness of 0.8 mm
How hig center bass bar needed too bee for good tone
The right measure😅 All joking aside, there isn't an ideal size, it depends on the stiffness of the top plate, the shape and height of the arching, the thicknesses, and the frequencies of the vibration modes. But to better understand, are you building a viola, or do you want to change the bassbar to an already built viola?
I'm sorry, but I have some difficulty understanding your English, perhaps using the Google translator you would get better results, and more understandable for me. Where are you from and what is your language?
🍒
ware is musica?
???
15:24
What would you like to highlight at 15:24 that arouses your interest? If you like to go into details I might try to give you an answer.
@@DavideSora Ok. Thank you, Mr. Davide Sora.
In my opinion, at that moment it was one of the technological developments along with the progress of the times. We use the tuner application from the smartphone to make it easy to find pitch on the violin wood plate.
@@onair9905 Yes, the discovery of electricity has changed several aspects, the most important is that we use the table lamps to better see what we do.😊
In the case of the tuner, if we had any musical instrument at hand, it would be more than enough to identify the pitch of the plates, since tuning to the cent (or to the Hertz) is not essential at all.
But an electronic tuner is undoubtedly a practical and cheap solution.
@@DavideSora Thank you, Mr. Davide Sora.
12:24 😱
😆Unforeseen events of the live broadcast! 😆😆 Luckily I had already put the clamp, so the clothespin that shot off had already fulfilled its task of keeping the underlying protection in position and was no longer needed.
U say maestro
My idea is not too good
I'm just trying
Make low tone
Wen I'm make this mezure bassbar
Not give mee buzzing tone G
Don't even try to place the bassbar in the center of the table, you need an asymmetrical position to be able to produce the sound, if it were central and therefore symmetrical the volume of the sound would be greatly reduced