Why Golden Era Bodybuilders Had Small Delts - Interview with Ken Waller
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- In this sixth video in the Ken Waller series, I ask Ken why it is that Golden Era Bodybuilders had small delts. Enjoy.
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It's quite sad how bodybuilding traded aesthetics for mass. The modern delts have always looked out of proportion to me. Though I suppose as you said, with the amount of gear they blast and the disproportionate amount of receptors in the delts, the imbalance is probably somewhat inevitable.
I completely agree. there's always something strange when I see most bodybuilders with disproportionate delts.
@nattylife that's exactly why I call it the sweet spot. If anyone decides to use anabolic, then why surpass this level of development? Obtaining mass at all costs doesn't make any sense to me
i disagree somewhat. ARNOLD was a mass monster for his time. and his arms where freakishly huge. almost too big.
Not sure about you, but I recall when I first started even in the 80's, flipping through magazines etc,,,,,I knew who was in the pics without even seeing their faces. You could identify certain guys just by their arms, legs etc,,,,Those days were great, and now, with a few exceptions, it's just genetic freaks with huge mass, but very difficult to identify without recognizing their face.
bodybuilding was always about mass lol, even the golden era winners were always the biggest guys (Arnold, Sergio...) with the exception of frank zane who competed in a weaker era after arnold's depature from the sport. Guys werent as big cause insulin, GH and they simply werent eating as much food as now. Anabolics wise... lets not kid ourselves, some of these guys popped dbol like it was candy (Arnold). Their delts didnt look as big partly because when you dont lean down and dry out enough, your arms look puffy and that area between the medial delt and arm is blurred too. This reduces the "capped delts" look.
Such a stunning observation - i have NEVER considered the delt size of the golden era to particularly 'stand out' .
Not in terms of stating they are 'small'.
I think the more prominent areas of their physique such as chest, tight waist, upper back , took more of the overall focus for me than to just isolate a single part such as delts .
They don't standout because they were aesthetically pleasing and equally proportioned unlike the freaks of today
I disagree, Golden Era guys had perfect delts. Modern Pro's have over-developed delts, hamstrings, thighs, WAY too big glutes and under developed arms.
I think today’s bodybuilders number one overdeveloped body part is the inner thigh. It literally throws everything off, including making your quads look small.
Don’t forget weak backs and calves. Those take time and maturity
Agreed smaller delts looks waaay better
@@phoenixrisin2269agree
Right? That ugly hyperbolic, ogre shoulder look has killed BBING.
Since the 90s, site enhancement injections have been common especially before shows. They will inject oil into lagging body parts or use substances that will inflame the area causing it to swell up. Its extremely common for them to do this in the side delts as this area is harder for many to build up.
I think if you look at todays bbers, what many lack compared to golden age bbers are forearms. I think this is from relying on too many machines as well as straps on every exercise, so they miss out on all the grip work that builds thick strong forearms.
Truth on both...plus synthetic use sky rocketed...powered by oil 🛢 👌 😁
it's crazy how much forearms are overshadowed by upper arms. i have 16" arms so far but i also have 13.75" forearms and people tell me all the time "your arms are huge" it's all about the forearms baby💪
That pic of Roelly. Deserved at least one Mr. Olympia.
This, SEO is the answer.
@Buldok88 I don't think its the right answer. They might get away with it a few times but eventually it looks obvious and looks ugly. They end up with no muscle definition/seperation in the body part they injected. In the end it's not Bodybuilding it's cosmetic surgery.
it is obvious that chest and upper arm development were the 2 most important aspects back then( just like legs and backs are now)
they also didnt go crazy on legs or back stuff to avoid getting a thickened waistline-even ab work was kept to a minimum...
i think they did train delts very hard though, as it helped with the v taper and shoulder to waist ratio
on back they they were focused more on width exercises as it helped with the taper also, but didnt do a ton of rows like modern pros, because 3d backs werent the norm back then
huge delts really became prevalent in the early 90s with he rise of the mass monsters, levrone, dillett
huge delts are nowadays a necessity because the waists are not as small as then, so they use the giant cannon ball delts to offset that a bit...
Very good point about today...the v taper is gone...injections and synthetic is in to enhance the v taper
@Goldenerabookworm, I always looked at that also. I always thought that the V- taper looked incredible on any bodybuilder. And nowadays when you look at a bodybuilder they mostly have upper latismus development , no lower taper. They should take schooling from a 90's bodybuilder named " Rory Lleidlemeyer.
Another point is that since 1970 the human population has doubled and bodybuilding has become mainstream. To this end there is a much bigger genetic pool and also more people being exposed to bodybuilding, thus we will also see more people with high genetic potential coming through.
Love these points of discussion 👏
Total nonsense. Better gene pool?? Is that how you explain why bodybuilders have acquired ripped glutes and delts as smooth as a baby's ass in the rear double biceps pose??😂 Today's massive delts are the result of Synthol and site-enhancemant oils. It's that simple. You never wondered how Hadi has a ripped six pack, striated chest and quads, yet shapeless blobs for delts that are particularly noticeable in poses such as the front relaxed and rear double biceps?? You fanboys kill me with your excuses.
Bodybuilding is far less mainstream now than it used to be. Most people would be disgusted by modern men's open physiques. But lifting in general is more mainstream.
Very impressive and respectable comment
True in general, but also big prize money gets anyone with potential to stay in the game and do whatever is needed to win. 1st Olympia only paid $1000., and it was a couple of decades after that before the numbers started getting big. When a guy may win $250K in the O, and some pretty good money all the way down to 5th, lots of incentive to train and take risks.
Having lived through the golden era and present in the bodybuilding gyms of the times I can say we blasted delts just like any other body part. As Ken stated the standard was around 20 total set’s usually 4 different movements, that comes straight from Arnold’s own encyclopedia of bodybuilding . I agree, current bodybuilders are using more and different PED’s but as others have commented the use of site enhancing oils is very popular now and really are adding to the bulbous look of the delts in modern bodybuilders.
When someone starts taking gear, the first thing noticed is that shoulders become wider, more round and full almost immediately.
That's a pretty weird suggestion that they "intentionally neglected shoulder training to not have them big". Not a single bodybuilder would want some bodypart to NOT to grow.
And BTW, delts actually were not small, they just had enormous chests and arms so delts looked relatively smaller. Just the idea of perfect body was different back then and in their opinion 50 years ago their delts were not "small" but perfectly sized
And the traps grow too. That's something naturals almost never achieve. They can't grow side delts or big traps.
It doesn’t work exactly like that, when you first start it takes multiple weeks to actually start feeling juiced. You’re physique as a whole will have a much more full, round appearance. Not just the deltoids. Also, alot of bodybuilders today pin their delts wayyy to much and makes them look goofy.
*Your
They avoided big traps intentionally
Had a buddy that took a short cycle when we were out to sea for 10.5 months. His delts and traps exploded. He didn’t change his training or his diet. They shrank back down afterwards, but it had me low key jealous even though I knew it wasn’t permanent. He may have kept a small percentage of it, but not enough to justify the cycle.
This was such a good interview - well done Bookworm. The question at 4:24 was totally spot on. I've noticed as well that naturals like Joel Kellett don't have the massively capped shoulders. Just a really good aesthetic. Starting to think delt size/development is a key in seeing who is natty and who isn't.
Yes, this and other tell tale signs such as redness of the skin, excessive vascularity year round.
Starting to think? Bruh, I've been into bodybuilding since I was like 12 years old, I'm currently 27, and I've known that massive and striated delts are a clear sign of steroids usage since like forever... This isn't news.
@@astroman0500 Well done
Joel kellet is not natural
Androgen receptors are disproportionately more abundant in delta and traps compared to the rest of the body. Bodybuilders today blast multiples more gear than the golden era guys and that’s why their traps and delta look like that. Plus synthol in many cases.
Yes
💯% agreed
Nope
Those same receptors are abundant in upper back and pecs as well. It’s about training
Source for the claim about androgen receptors?
I would say the illusion of smaller delts during the golden era is because when people think golden era they think Arnold (and fairly so since he pretty much set the standard for the era). While Arnold might not have had particularly small delts in general, his chest and arms were so massive that they ridicously overpowered his delts.
Yes...I think Arnold is the perfect example. Influencing factors being his genetics and androgen receptor distribution, which may have been unusually high in chest and arms, his over emphasis in training chest and arms and gear use
Arnolds delts 'hang', so do mine. He mentioned this is interviews Ive read
Compare delts from someone like Seth Feroce and youll see genetically, some peoples delts are higher up and some peoples delts kind of hang
lol arnold has sloping delta, his delts were massive and fit his body really well. Guys today have over developed delts from the massive fear they are taking. They get a look like the rock and it looks awful.
Absolutely without question, today's delts are too big.
What bothers me is it makes this ugly proportion to their upper bodies, where their delts are literally bigger than their biceps, so you get this triangle shape going on with their arms. Where with the Golden Era you get this really aesthetically ideal small big small big going on whether you start from the hand going up, or from the shoulder going down.
It's like you want that because it then emphasizes what we as humans notice, the chest, the biceps, and the forearms. By not having giant delts it makes the chest and biceps seem bigger, where the new look just feels like fat bellies, and giant delts and tiny forearms.. and this odd triangle shape to their arms starting from their enormous delts going down, it looks terrible.
Here is to me the clincher. Take someone who is absolutely fit at a natural athletic sport or training. ie take someone who does parkour, or someone doing martial arts, and doing this constantly and compare and you can see their delts are smaller than their biceps. And even gymnasts who hang on the bloody rings, if you look at a gymnast, same thing, they have what looks like a scaled down version of Arnold's build. Nice delts, but their biceps(and even triceps) are always significantly bigger, so you get that nice emphasis on the chest sticking out, and the bicep emphasized aesthetically feeling natural to the eye. And again that small, big, small big, small(hand - forearm - elbow - bicep/tricep - delt) No matter which way your eye goes over it.
Todays builders have these insane bellies as well because they are taking gear that cause everything to get bigger, and so there isn't any muscle(including their hearts) that doesnt' get overdeveloped even with light training of it), so they have no choice but to pretend that this is the preferred asthetic, when any woman off the street will 99.999% of the time will say they prefer Arnold, and golden era body building bodies over modern body builders... I feel for them because it isn't easy to try to get bigger than Arnold and try to say they have surpassed him, without facing a much harder time keeping that aesthetically pleasing look, that again is what works for your gymnast, martial arts, etc body...
But this denial of what I think the general public has been saying, even Arnold's critic of the too big of belly, i think it's time for someone to come only and reset this bad direction modern body building has been going for decades now...
@@Arrogan28True, noticed that too. Delts that are too big let the bicep look smaller
Arnold for example had/has small bone structure in the shoulders. He also has the dropped shoulder type of physique(with relatively long neck and tall traps, totally opposed to Markus Ruhl with raised and wide shoulders, short neck and small traps.
Very different from Arnold was Sergio Oliva with bigger shoulders and in between Arnold and Markus in terms of bone structure.
Yes, structure due to genetics is a great example of why this illusion played out
Serg the French dude had huge delts along with Franco
@@Nobody-bq7plafrican, not french
@s1ash1 He was born and raised in Guadalupe and moved to France. He was a French citizen and spoke French. Yes, obviously, he was black, and his ancestors came from the continent of Africa but he still was French.
@@odessafile75 he’s not french. if you believe he is french you also support the replacement of europeans
An old time axiom was that "there's no such thing as over developed shoulders". I recall reading that Steve Reeves mused about someday doing nothing BUT shoulder exercises.
He would have looked ridiculous with delts like todays bodybuilders.
They had small delts because the rear delt was not an emphasis back then for one. They basically did endless lateral raises and front raises. They didn't train traps a whole lot either. So they were really missing that 3D delt look bc they basically only trained two parts of the delt with very little traps training. Personally, I like the older look. Id rather see a slim waist and smaller shoulders than a block waisted bubble gut and 3D delts.
@@Stanly-Stud Your momma
@@biztranfsbo thanks
You touched on one factor that plays a role. Bodybuilding exploded in popularity in the 1980s and became much more mainstream. With Arnold in the movies, more people were exposed to it and more likely to get involved. With more people getting involved, the quality of the genetic pool in bodybuilding got better. More popularity brings in more people raising the quality of the genetic pool in the sport. That could be a contributing factor to the high quality of bodybuilders witnessed in the 1990s and beyond.
The best genetics rise to the top and part of those genetics are anabolic/androgenic response. So more people with better genetics get involved, and they're taking different and more gear. The combination of those two factors could account for the change in shoulder development. Then, once those genetically gifted people display incredible shoulders, others go after the look in unnatural ways (implants, synthol, etc.) and it begins to look as if everyone who trains shoulders automatically gets amazing-looking shoulders.
I came to this understanding in a conversation with Dr. Stone at lunch one day. When asked why Europe had so many high quality Olympic weightlifters compared to the U.S., he said, "Because our great Olympic weightlifters are playing football instead." [American football.] He went on to explain that in the U.S., the same people with genetic talents for Olympic weightlifting can use those talents in a more popular sport to potentially make more money. Therefore, the genetic pool that enters Olympic weightlifting in the U.S. is smaller. The people with the best genetics for Olympic weightlifting in Europe don't have American football competing for their attention.
Yes, it is the kind of gear they take. Not just the amount. Capped shoulders started showing up out of the blue in the mid-90s on the pro level with popularity of local enhancement.
Today, most influencers have capped shoulders. A teenager with 6 months training experience, has capped shoulders. And so do Cross Fit girls, movie stars and everyone between them. Even my neighbor's Pitbull has them.
So, yeah. It is definitely the kind of gear they're taking.
Neighbours pitbull..lol
My dog has trout shoulders but I love her anyway 😂
@@schmui And I love her too 😀
I think that it has to do with people taking shoulder development very seriously nowadays. There is the meme "spamming laterals" where they really emphasize the side delts from all angles with dumbbells, cables and machines. That makes a huge difference Imo.
I like the big shoulders (on naturals) because it emphasizes masculinity to me, the shoulders and back are very masculine bodyparts and anyone that genuinely does weightlifting (not bodybuilding) has big shoulders. They are worked much more than muscles like chest even in athletic endeavours, like martial arts or even sprinting.
During the beginning of this discussion, I actually thought he was referring to like oils and stuff. Maybe today guys will inject oils into deltoids. But you guys focused on gear for the rest of the video.
Deltoids in particular are a target for "site enhancement" substances like Synthrol that did not exist in the Golden Era. I believe site enhancement (injecting oil or silicone or other fillers into a muscle to make it appear larger) was not practiced until the 1990s (Flex Wheeler was one of its pioneers).
Nothing to do with that. The most steroid receptors are in the shoulders. More and stronger drugs, bigger shoulders
@@phoenixrisin2269 All of the anabolic steroids popular today were around in the 1970s-1980s and were pharmaceutical grade. While average dosages are certainly higher now, even back then there were bodybuilders taking multiple grams/week. Site injections have made quite a difference in certain muscle groups in the past three decades; obviously in terms of total muscle mass seen onstage the biggest changes since the golden era are due to the combo of HGH and insulin plus the tendency to stay on-cycle year-round.
@@phoenixrisin2269 Correct.
@@phoenixrisin2269Rami , Hadi, abd cbum to name just a few absolutely inject their shoulders and it does have some carry over. Rami and Hadi look ridiculous.
I just target the delts with Humiston and Cavialieri's advice and skip the needles altogether
Very interesting subject and video. I have trained with or witnessed a few Mr. Olympia and Mr. Universe contestants and a couple of winners from the 70's and there was no shortage of hard work being done. The strength and weights being used by some of these guys was extreme. It's a wonder that all of them don't have shoulder problems from doing those seated behind the neck presses. I've read some articles that place the trap and delt growth on not just larger amounts of steroids but certain steroids that weren't the main drugs used in the 70's, like equipoise.
Yes, this is exactly 💯 true. That is one of the points I made, without going into too much detail
If you have normal mobility, btn presses should never give problems. But most sedentary people are so deformed that normally safe movements could hurt them.
Training science has advanced. Golden era trained harder (over trained like a m’fer). The more mass, the less frequency and duration should be approached. Ped’s aside, yes, ped science is far more advanced as well but golden era believed more is better, at a certain point more is overtraining and hinders growth. You grow in a state of rest. They probably could have been bigger in the golden era knowing this.
Great video. I think what gives the look of that capped delt aside from a shit ton of gear is the development of the rear delt. It seems like back then only a few bodybuilders had that capped deltoid look for example Franco Colombo. I feel like shoulder training back then really emphasized the front and side delts and not so much the rear hence why their shoulders looked underdeveloped compared to the rest of their physique
Hard to know for sure but Arny seemed to train his rear delts a lot. In fact, it was through him I found the best rear delt exercise I've ever tried
@unbabunga229 which is?
@@Dakradom Powell raise! Go light. Start on 1/2kg and work your way up! And do plenty of warm sets each time to feel your rear delt and make sure it's doing the work!
If you're like me anyway, who struggles to feel their rear delt working on exercises
@@unbabunga229 thank you!
The golden era didn’t have small deltoids, those are small muscles, they were the right size according to the physique, now they are just way too big, even bigger than flutes sometimes
My personal opinion might be the fact that the delts didn’t get a chance to grow due to the amount of frequency that the delts were being used….delts back then were being used 4-6 times a week…
This is actually a good point and I’m a life long bodybuilder so when you define the word “use” yes delts get activated in both push and pull workouts ie when working out lats it’s not intended to be a delt day. This issue still exists to this day. Some pros are blessed with genetics and taking great gear they can hit body parts just once a week and reduce delt involvement but for me using a 6 day routine i hit each body part twice a week and delts do get activated 4 times just to a lessor extent on pull days. There is just no way around it for some of us
Small felts looked good coupled with symmetry. Modern day shoulders are unbecoming.
Keep these videos coming! This is such an informative series.
Thanks
Arnold did not have a ‘tiny waist’ the opposite in fact he was criticised for having ‘boxy’ hips
Golden Era of Bodybuilding with the slim waist and tapered look are the best physics. Starting with Dorian Yates it went down hill. Yates black and white photos of himself at his peak, were mind blowing.
Because that didn’t train properly, especially Arnold didn’t know how to do shoulders, especially with rear delt, he used to lie down in the bench, going against gravity, ruin the rotator cup without getting any engagement with the muscle?
Pretty solid review. One rule that will never change is "one can NEVER overdevelop the deltoids." Just in general since Steve Reeves, what has gone on to be timeless is the bodybuilder trifecta: broad shoulder carriage (a big chest box, too) to hang a lot of meat on, a vespine (wasp-like) waist, and shapely naturally muscular calves. If you look at early influencers, say Vince Gironda, you'll see all of his disciples tried to enhance their appearance, to appear much larger than they really were by stressing these points in their training. Arnold S. would be a classic example of a kid who hit 250 lbs very early on but then began sculpting himself with a special emphasis on his calves. He looked larger when he was lighter. And, Arnold is NOT particularly naturally broad shouldered say like Don Howorth, Dennis Tinerino or Pete Grymkowski were. ***Just a personal observation that at least some of the current best bodybuilders seem to be really enhanced by all of the modern "gear" as you call it. Some of these contemporary guys looked rather normal pre-bodybuilding but they really are genetic outliers in their response to drugs. Often, the old timers were already sort of naturally muscular before they began training. Sandow and Grimek are good examples of this. So, would be the late actor, Charles Bronson, a natural mesomorph.
Fantastic response, much appreciated.
Excellent points. Thank you for your thoughts
@@GoldenEraBookwormDo you include synthol under the category of ‘gear’? Appears to be a regular product these last few years and used by almost everyone. No longer limited to a handful of misguided individuals.
Love your videos
Your the man
Look forward to every single video
Always honest always entertaining
Love you your the bomb
The secret of large deltoid muscles in modern bodybuilders is synthol. There was no synthol in the Golden Era.
🎯
Well I disagree with synthol being the reason why shoulders are.bigger now, we all know who uses synthol, the hard workers and gifted have grea shoulders, synthol is for those that can't do the hard workouts, then they cheat, but it.doesnt look natural, at times has pointy areas😅
I think the explanation is pretty simple.
1. Changes in gear usage
2. Better training (relying mkore on cables and machines which provide tension through the whole movement and a better contraction compared to free weights)
3. Simply more emphasis on delt training, with many people having a specific shoulder day or at least focusing heavily on the delts
No. It’s no 3. Shoulders r a small body part that get hit on many other exercises so they trained them hard but kept them aesthetic. It was not given its own day as u correctly stated. It was usually trained b4 legs sedated press, side laterals , bent over laterals 3-5 sets each. This served to warm up the delts for squatting as delts take massive load during the barbell squat. A lot of people don’t realize that. U can tear or injure your shoulder performing a heavy squat. Ask a power lifter. The anabolic’s were of a superior standard and use was heavy but nothing like today. It was available over the counter at the pharmacy not ug. Intelligent use of anabolic’s , training , diet and an eye for aesthetics was key. This is y classic physique has become so popular. The super man v taper is appealing to the average person. The overdeveloped mass monsters is aesthetically grotesque.
@@bhu3050 The delts are far the biggest muscle in the upper body in terms of total volume. Not a small muscle at all. Also inteligent use of anobolics? The way we understand gear use is massively different today and far superior.
@@charlotte3201 No. and if u don’t even know that delts r a small muscle group that is overworked by it’s very nature and that all anabolic’s were well understood and legally available over the counter at the pharmacy being of a much higher potency then u have no clue. Reg Parks was my fathers training partner. I know a little bit about it.
@@bhu3050 muscle imaging studies show clearly the delts are the biggest upper body muscle group, and by a wide margin. Also the potency of the anobolics they used is irrelevent. The knowlege and compound selection we have today massively outweighs what they had in the 70's
@@charlotte3201 delts r a small muscle group so no amt of bs’ng can change that. The fact that u don’t know this shows u have zero clue and very little actual experience. Look it up. Small muscle group. Overworked muscle group. That’s y most people have shoulder issues. Anabolic’s have remained relatively unchanged , usage has increased and knowledge have declined as is indicated by the loss of aesthetics. Bodybuilding like powerlifting , motor bike racing and just about every sport and endeavor has in the last few decades lost its way. I told u it was no 3 of wht u said and gave u the reasons. Arguing with a state and national champion and current ifp and iffbb international judge who owned one of they top competitive gymnasiums of the era that had all the top names come thru on the circuit from Pearl to Arnold , Zane , Draper , Platz , Kazmaier and countless others and is still training top athletes today is asinine. Go to our mirror and look at your body and if your shoulders r a large muscle group get over to a university hospital and they can sturdy u as a new species because you’re unlike every human in or has ever been in existence.
Today, the shoulders often dwarf the chest, which looks all wrong to me.
While I agree with theory about increased androgen receptor density in shoulders and traps I genuinely also believe there is a training method here being highly overlooked. Watch this video or any video from bodybuilding previous eras the OHP (considered the most closely approximated “compound” movement back then was performed with FULL range of movement, ie they were lowering the bar into the weakest area for the shoulder. This full range of movement pattern does not allow to load the shoulder with nearly as much weight (resistance) as half repping a much larger weight.
Don’t believe me go look at how anyone with really big shoulders they are doing some shoulder exercises with a much reduced range but loaded with substantially more load.
I’m not saying this applies to everyone obviously but as a general rule bodybuilders that really look the part and have been at it a while tend to load much heavier and reduce range of motion.
Agree with note that Zane’s shoulders were not lacking even by todays standards.
Yes, and the full press trains the triceps as much as the deltoids with full ROM motions
Not sure their delts were ‘small it’s just that modern bodybuilders have absolutely huge delts, especially rear delts which is where the main difference is. I think some of it is just evolution of the size game, but also response to drugs are a key difference, as you see the real change in delts and traps when modern bodybuilders are on compared to when they retire and dial down the drugs. Those areas are high in androgenic receptors. So fully agree it’s mainly drug related in large part.
I've heard this before and I think first came from plates and dates. I dont see how that makes any sense. If this were true, then these old school guys would also have oversized delts. I think it was just choice of exercises and anesthetics of the day. No one had oversized glutes or hamstrings back then either.
@@SCCCC1 Exactly right, KenWaller already said in a prior video, he was careful to not get his upper legs too large.
And Arnold said he carefully balanced delts and forearms so the upper arm would appear larger. Bodybuilding was about creating an illusion of proper proportions.
Thanks for the post 😊😊
i subscribed because i like the topic of the the channel! thanks for covering the old school golden era
I Don’t think Their Delts we’re Small per Se,in fact On Proportion with other parts,I think the Delts on Modern Bodybuilders are actually too Big
Rick Wayne is a bit underrated imo, he had a Shawn Ray quality level.
I kind of disagree with the "over developed" term. The amount of gear might justify bigger shoulders, but it doesn't mean they look bad. 92-97 Kevin Levrone had big shoulders and he looked amazing.
a great question with a great answer. Can't wait to see the next video were you interview Arnold.
They are not small, they are proportioned.
Golden era bodybuilders' physiques are much more pleasing than the freaks we see today.
This has been answered many times by several body builders. This guy sounds like he's almost trying to claim they were natural or close to it. The greats from the Golden era weren't taking any less steroids and were taking many of the same compounds that are used today. The most truthful answer to this question is simply that the aesthetic of the time was more focused on having large arms and having massive delts detracts from the biceps in a back double pose. The training is similar yes, but there isna lot more emphasis on delts now. I don't believe for one second that it has to do with using less steroids. Especially considering this is the first guy I have heard saying it's anything other than aesthetics.
yeah its definately a boomer mentality
Don Howarth where are you?
Easily the best delts & overall structure of his time. Wide, full delts, small waist and awesome quad sweep.
My shoulders are a bit underdeveloped. I didn’t really work them out compared to my biceps and triceps. But honestly, my biceps and triceps look bigger for now until I develop my delts more. I learned for me that I need high reps for a nice pump on my delts. And also i personally think overdeveloped delts take away from how great the triceps can look but for a front double bicep pose, the shoulders can really make the biceps pop.
As a couple guys here already mentioned, there’s more receptors for modern gear in the traps and shoulders. Occasionally you’ll see a guy at a gym with those two body parts disproportionately ahead of their physique showing their efforts and commitment are not equal to their drug usage.
I agree there's guys in the gym now that are just delts and traps. Hideous.
Yea bullshit. Its Synthol. Not more receptors for modern gear.
@@majicogarcia8417 True.
@argocomics I agree 100% when the drugs surpass hard work, this modern Freak look becomes apparent
Guys it's both, they're literally puttin tren in the shoulders, those who lack shoulder genetics, or have injuries more likely to use site injection like synthol there, or wherever they lack
I've never considered Golden Era bodybuilders to have small delts!! But I can see your point.
DAMMMMN, Ken is a REAL OG; LEGEND. This interview has me grown on this LEGEND. Like I stated before in a previous video, that man facial expressions use to make me feel a negative way 😂😂😂, but I always noticed in Pumping Iron and the mags he had a very STRONG camaraderie with his gym buddies (white, asian, or black). He seemed to me that he's very cognizant of who crosses his personal space but once he lets you in, he'd go to war with you. Great podcast, Carlos, you're a bad MOFO lol.
Surprised not to hear SEOs brought up specifically. So many guys have Jimmied up and watery delts these days.
Well done, Sir!
Most people are not aware of the usage of sight enhancement
Reg Park???....Ever see his Hercules pose? Where he has his hands on his hips doing a lat spread....THOSE are "small delts???"....Don Howorth?.....Larry Scott?.....Exactly what years are we talking about again?
The Bodybuilder of the old classic days They were the best. Back in the old days of bodybuilding They look good. They look like they were in shape. Today They are massive huge in size. Way too big. They look like freaks on stage. It's not the same. Sad It's all gone. Again the bodybuilding era in the 40s,50s 60s and 70s was the best. I You. We will never Ever see that again.
It isnt the general delt size, that is ok in relation with total size, it is the posterior delt size, that was relative small. And the photo in the miniature appears confirms this, because the chosen pose of the photo allows to see well this lack of size compared with triceps. Nowadays rounded posterior delts are common, but not so common 4 or more decades ago.
The androgenic effects of PEDS target the traps and delts more than any other body part, so with newer compounds and higher doseages you are bound to have freakishly large delts and traps compared to golden era guys, who generally had less potent compounds
From the early 90s onwards you've also got to consider the prevalent use of SEOs, especially in the shoulders and arms.
In my opinion that's the biggest significant difference between golden era shoulder development, and that in more contemporary bodybuilders from the 90s onwards.
Many, many pros use SEOs, it's not all the idiots we see on social media videos with huge swelled up muscle areas filled with oil.
Look at the shoulder and arm areas of a lot of huge bodybuilders in contemporary times. Their delts and upper arms always look pumped / semi-flexed, they never appear completely relaxed - compare that with the appearance of musculature in golden era bodybuilders.
Any time a muscle looks like it can't properly be relaxed and always looks pumped / semi-flexed and that's because there's something in there.
Smaller delt to means more spotlight to the arm. Look at Bill Pearl for instance.
The chest/delt tie-in looks great
It’s a combo of site injections (with regular gear, ie injecting the delt) site ENHANCEMENTS, which are not steroids but just oil that is used to puff up the muscle and create inflammation (what people know as “synthol”) and lastly the types and amount of steroids used. In the golden era the main compound of choice was deca. Deca is not nearly as androgenic as testosterone. Which in turn, has less of an effect on the delts because the delts have a ton of androgen receptors
Excellent video!
I believe the Golden Era Bodybuilders, as Ken Waller just told us, trained their delts as much as any other bodypart (he actually said 20 sets for delts alone!)
I contend that between the 20 sets they did for chest, 20 for back, plus using compound triceps moves like Dips and Close Grip Benches (again, for 20 sets), all combined to grossly overtrain their delts...they never reaped the benefit of all that hard delt work and were likely better off training them with just a few sets.
Arnold once explained easily why, he said so the arms looked bigger
Above all, you need to forget about such exercises as the press from behind the head, which was the main exercise for the shoulders.
You have forgotten the fact that there are now more cable exercises and machines used to the train the delts to put maximum tension on the muscle. Remember time under tension is important. If it was all about the androgen receptor density then today’s bodybuilder would have similar leg size as androgen receptor density is lower in the legs than shoulders, traps etc.
They were in perfect proportion to the rest of their physique.
Today's bodybuilders have overdeveloped deltoids.
Love your videos and your channel, thank you for doing what you do :)
great vid, and i liked the analysis at the end
tExcellent video as always. Thank you!
I read somewhere, seemed to be a legit source at that time, IDK, but I read that Tren had an affinity to bind to the androgen receptors in the deltoids more than anywhere else in the body. I remember in the late 80's guys talking in the gym about melting down these "cow pellets" and it was apparently the first kind of Tren being used at that time. That was1988-1989. I had a buddy taking it. He would melt it down using a bunsen burner and some lab supplies he stole from a college lab. He said "it's just basic chemistry and free-basing basically" lol. He had big jacked delts too.
@@Stanly-Stud Yo momma love me
Arnold's rear double bicep shows perfect balance between the arms, shoulders and back. It was about being as symmetric as possible.
Nope. The guys nowadays have delt specific day, make use of more cables and machines- this is why Larry Scott came up with the Scott press and Arnold turned it into his own. The reasons for those invented movements is to hit the side side with a pressing compound movements. They also used lower reps not much over 10-12 reps.. instead of 4 sets of 10-20 reps they did things like 6 sets of 6 reps… not great for slow twitch fibers in delts
Delts or no delts, the golden era of BB simply was the best..
I always thought Arnold's Delts were slightly lacking.. The thickness in his chest and arms were overpowering his delts.. The size of his chest and arms made his delts look smothered in behind the rest of the muscles, this was really apparent early in his career when he was just all pecs and biceps .. If you look at Arnold's physique in 1980 his delts actually tend to look more pronounced, maybe because his chest and arms had thinned out some..
Golden era guys did military presses for their shoulders and only a few sets of lateral raises almost as an after thought. Today most the pros are doing multiple angles of lateral raises as their main shoulder exercises including various machine laterals and shoulder presses as and after thought. Using high reps for shoulders and plenty of intensifiers when training that muscle. There also pinning a lot of their gear in the shoulders as opposed to golden era who mainly pinned in the glutes. All you have to do is look at the female bodybuilders just a couple of decades ago and see how did these women build boulders for shoulders. These women did it with very little shoulder presses and many different types of lateral raises. Pro bodybuilder Nick Walker recently stated he barely does shoulder presses anymore. Thinks there almost useless for shoulder development. And I kinda agree. Learning the correct way to do laterals from so many different angles is what is going to build massive shoulders. Oh and Golden era guys basically did nothing to focus on rear delts where today pros will train rear delts 2 to 3 times a week almost like calves because it's a small muscle that recoups so fast. Golden era guys had zero clue how to actually hit the rear delt probably and that's why their shoulders sloped.
Not really
LMAO at thinking cable lateral raises are somehow magically blowing up their delts instead of brutally hard pressing.
I think that’s all to cover up the oil they’re putting in their shoulders. If someone questions them they just can claim they are doing some unique training program and superior movements instead of the truth
Kinda like when fake natties say they are developing that “look” by spamming lateral raises or other shoulder movements
You literally don’t know what you’re talking about lol
@@robitaillecopeland1996 yeah it’s kinda the opposite of what he’s saying right?
The shoulders even then on those means could be better but people relied on the structure of their body to have broad shoulders
Let's not forget the role of site enhancement oil. It's not just the "oil bags" that use it, they just overuse it. (I'm not totally sure when site enhancement oil became a thing, maybe the guys in the golden era used it, too, I dunno)
When i started training in a gym after training from home everyone said i had big shoulders but i never trained shoulders as i never had the equipment at home or knew many exercises for them and as i got bigger from training in the gym my shoulders was the main thing everyone talked about i didnt know why because is still didnt train them much.
I know roelly winklaar was told by his trainer to stop training shoulders when he became a pro as his was out of proportion too.
Another interesting video, I'm wondering not only the 'gear' they are using now but do you think that 'site injection oils' ie synthol have anything to do with that look the shoulders have now with modern day bodybuilders ?
100%. The photos of Big Ramy and Winklaar had oil for days.
I dont think it is an illusion. They haven't reached full potential of shoulder mass no matter what we think is or isn't aesthetic
This was very interesting as always
Plus, there is a lot of synthol being used today, and often injected into the shoulders too.
The person who ushered in the era of massive deltoids is none other than Kevin Levrone. Before Kevin in 1991, everyone had underdeveloped deltoids, then he came with them and from then henceforth, big delts became the norm. Even the previous Mr. O, Lee Haney, had small delts.
A perfect example of a similar situation is Tom Platz. Before him, bodybuilders had underdeveloped legs, he brought in the biggest legs and set the precedent.
Another precedent/ example is shredded glutes, Rich Gaspari being the very first man to display them. Before him, they all covered up their bums and had soggy underdeveloped glutes.
No way. Long before Levrone, there was Gary Strydom. He brought in the larger shoulder look and to this day arguably had the best delts ever.
@@tommypizzo1677
Gary Strydom can’t compete with anyone in the 90s and over when it comes to delts much less Kevin Levrone. Stop being a fanboy.
@kikuyukiiru5666 tell me you're too young to even know who Gary Strydom is without telling me. I mean after all, Strydom is from the 90s. So what you said makes no sense. Plus he is known for his delts the way Tom Platz is known for his thighs. You make no sense man.
@@tommypizzo1677
He didn’t even place in the 90s anyway. He’s not comparable to Paul Dillet much less Kevin Levrone. Stop fanboying.
@@kiuk_kiks he didn't place in the 90s? 🤣 Are you daft? You further show your lack of knowledge and ignorance there. I guess that's Bliss for some people 🤣 And honestly I was a bigger fan of Levrone and Dillett than I ever was Strydom. And I trained with Gaspari once in the early 90s. So again, no sense. But you don't know me and you definitely don't know what you're talking about, So there's that...
This video missed the number one reason, Injectable fillers. This look did not exist before the original synthol. You can tell because it blurs out the definition. Yes it's bigger but it looks like a water balloon. This is also true of pecks, arms ECT. If it's bulging and big and has little separation and no stration its oil.
Interestingly enough, Larry Scott was able to obtain perfect deltoid development in the silver Era.
Larry was part of the Golden era, which coincidentally started around 1960, when steroid use began to become more widespread.
@@squirrellsquats8428 Steroids couldn't provide the muscular detail Scott aimed for after seeing Leon Burke -- "deltoids like a bunch of bananas." His delts were part of his one great genetic gift, arms. You see pix of Scott as a stringy 160-pound kid who wasn't using anything but milk, and those arms were still notable.
@@daveconleyportfolio5192 Yep. Genetics, drugs and consistent effort over time is how the champs were made.
I think the answer lies in a combination between PEDs and training. Although old school bodybuilders trained hard, if you watch golden era training videos, they don't really emphasize the negatives. During that era bodybuilders lifted heavy and hard, but unfortunately that doesn't always work. This we have only come to discover in the last 20-25 years maybe. I dunno when the paradigm shift occurred but I think it happened in the 90s.
However, the widespread use of HGH and other peptides inherently increases the amount of muscle cells in certain areas of the body that would not typically have as many actual muscle cells. HGH helps a lot in rounding out one's physique because prolonged use will actually help you develop new tissue that you weren't initially genetically inclined to have.
With that said, I don't think golden era bodybuilders had bad deltoids. I guess they were a bit undersized compared to their chests, but they were in parity with their legs in many cases. I think if there's any conclusion we can draw, it's that golden era training - heavy weight and relatively quick negatives - is conducive to arm, chest and back development. The legs require a lot of mind-muscle connection to develop in size, which is why you also see many people with small quads squatting a lot of weight. It's no less impressive to be strong AF with smaller muscles IMO, but if you want the modern day bodybuilder look, you pretty much need to apply a science to your training and your diet. Recent Nick Walker, Ben Pokolski and Milos Sarcev training clips are a good example of this.
Androgen receptors are most dense in the torso including the delt.
These days the competitors site-inject all 3 heads of their delts, PLUS also inject SYNTHOL (Site Enhancement Oil). I know a competitor here in Surrey B.C. who is only 190lb but has HUGE shoulders because of what I just described.
I've been told some when I was starting, some 35 years ago, not to work traps too hard, because overdeveloped traps make shoulders look narrower.
the picture at 47 seconds in is jaw-dropping.
The dead giveaway on whether someone someone is taking steroids is big traps and delts because those areas have more androgen receptors. So, it stands to reason that the Golden era bodybuilders would have smaller traps and delts due to way lower doses.
Lower doses, but the drugs produced better results.
And natural lifters almost never develop these muscles.
I know people pin delts today too and higher gear dosages are associated with bigger delts as you mentioned
Tren was not used in the golden era I thought. That’s your newest anabolic IMO. Tren makes your grow in areas you haven’t touched. It was developed for those muscular bulls on farms. Golden era used lots of mast and test from my understanding. A more mild stack.
Its just an observation, but 'golden era' body builders look much more aesthetically pleasing and more in proportion than today's body builders.
Great video!
Arnold said years ago, that over developed delts took away from the arms. So over developed delts and "no neck" took away from the esthetics.
Just spitballing here. I'm 65, I started training "Correctly" about when Pumping Iron came out. I still train at Real Ironhead gym that opened about the time the 1st Conan movie came out. I've got a couple of theories on this. Yes there's a lot more stuff being used with guy's, and they're overall bigger, including being very aware their waist's are thicker. So they need their shoulders to (at least appear) wider. So they're more aware about blasting their delts in particular with the weights, but also for that reason I think there's much more site injection, along with Synthol etc in what are thought to be needed areas. Also I don't think I'd consider Delts small in the old days, as opposed to less Overdevelopment out of perceived necessity.
well proportioned doesn’t mean every part of the body gotta go big 💪🏻
I think nowadays competitors use a lot of site shots especially in the rear and side delt to add size.
What a great discussion, thank you! Who is the bodybuilder at 7:30? Such a great aesthetic!
George Eiferman
@@sassyseansimpson8693 thank you!
I think anabolics are a large part of it. But I think exercise selection is another. Looks at oldschool strongman/highland games types, some of those guys had massive traps and shoulders from all that overhead work and carrying. You just didnt get that sort of look in the sunny beachside Golds Gyms.
I think golden era guys actually cycled off for at least 30-60 days or more. Where as today or last 20 years, it’s blast and cruise all year on a large stack not just cruising on test or primo