The TRUTH About "True" Point Guards!
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#NBA #CP3 #JohnStockton #JasonKidd #PointGuard
Now that my full argument on Stockton is out, please feel free to tell me to go fuck myself now that my whole take is out
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I do think that stockton's defense is slightly underrated, but his offense is *EXTREMELY OVERRATED*
I like the longer vidoes about your opinons on the last two things and more
Detroit's Thomas won 2 chips as the best player
How was his offense overrated? He shot a high percentage from the field the utah offense was always top 5 or at worst top ten. Late in games he was the guy that would take the big shots on that team. Rusty is a young guy that didn't watch john Stockton at his prime which was between 1987 to 1994. In my opinion he is the six best point guard of all time
@@recorz98 he didn't have a left hand
Rusty trying to pick a fight with all the old heads 😂
What had me weak is he said he had no left
This guy is clueless about the NBA and forms all his opinions on statistics! Absolute donkey!!!
@@EdHealey88 hes actually correct and Gilbert Arenas explained a similar theory on his own podcast. I think Arenas did the history all the way back to 40 years ago and showed that Zeke and the bad boy pistons was the last team to win a chip with a true PG and that was bc Zeke learned to play as an off ball scorer under chuck dailly. I remember Arenas saying something along the lines of "If your pg has to set you up every play just so you can score that means that you arent that good."
@@EdHealey88 I kinda agree with you. We can't rely on statistics all the time, we should consider how a player or play or played their hearts out. Hahahaha
Edward Healey uh oh! Someone’s triggered that their favorite era of basketball’s stars aren’t as good as they thought they were.
A true point guard isnt about averaging assists. It's about hockey passes, transition passes, settling up the offense and controlling the pace.
So.....rondo?
@@AlfieTank Rondo is a damn good true point guard just like Jason Kidd
People usually think of assists specialists when they think of true point guards.
A true PG is a PG who passes first and shoots second. Isaiah Thomas a true pg, he averaged 13 assist in one season. Tony Parker was a true pg, Chauncey Billups was a true pg. Derrick Fisher a true PG. Mario Chalmers was a true pg. It wasn't until 2015 that a scoring pg started winning it all. Just a dumb video.
Leadership should define what a true point guard is.
Lakers:*going to have a serious shot at winning a championship*
Rudy gobert:I don’t think so
Rudy Gobert DPOY for making all teams including his own go scoreless for at least the next 30 days.
Darling Boy exactly
The Dude Shut down the Entire NBA talking about Defense
Dpod d for decade
Jokes aside, its an inevitable outcome
You forgot the best “TRUE” point guard ... Isiah Thomas.. who won two championships.. ik he didn’t average 10+ assists during the championship runs .. but he is still a pass first PG
That’s what makes him an even truer point guard he wasn’t passing for assists he made hockey assists
@@dinneratlunch the hockey assist if recorded would put Bird, Magic,Thomas & Curry higher
He also scored very well, which was a huge scoring dimension, even on one foot. Which is exactly what this video was about.
Rodrick Kinta but unlike the other true pgs talked about in this video (Nash, Stockton and Kidd for example) he was a legitimate scoring threat ALONG with being a passing threat
Even Kyle Lowrys a true point gaurd and he just won a championship
True point guard is a construct made by old heads to keep positions from evolving beyond the old roles they romanticize.
Caleb Counts I mean there is, or was such a thing as a true point guard. Traditionally the pg was the guy who moved the ball and set the plays and all that...but yeah with the way the game is evolving it doesn’t really mean much now
Caleb Counts how many “Fake PG” has lead his team to championship beside Steph and Walt Frazier ?
@T Mitch THIS NIGGA REALLY SAID MAGIC 💀💀💀💀
@jaynizzy1993 I think they thought you were talking about "Fake PG" since he asked what faked point guards have done that
T Mitch Isaiah Thomas did.
Nash: terrible at defense
CP3: consistent injury problems within his teams during the playoffs
Kidd: Subpar supporting casts during prime
Stockton: Not actually that good at passing (referencing your last video)
These reasons, to me, are more valid as to why these players never won championships than the fact that true point guards don't win championships.
Also, Jason Kidd's talent included being able to completely take over the tempo of an NBA basketball game. He made the Finals twice in his prime, and actually came within striking distance of beating the Tin Duncan-led Spurs in the Finals. Keep in mind, his supporting cast, for a Finals team, was garbage. Kidd could do everything on the court except score. Saying that Kidd isn't a superstar is saying that scoring is all that matters.
Also also, you completely glossed over Isiah Thomas, who won 2 championships as a relatively true point guard. He averaged a combined 18 and 9 during the two championship seasons, which is very similar to the numbers Chris Paul gets. It seems pretty clear that he was the best player on that team, and he was a true point guard. And he wasn't 6'9" like Magic Johnson.
Look at Isiah Thomas' Number before they won the Championships he was Averaging 11-13 assists a game.
Once they added in a system on Ball movement Isiah's assists went down and they won Back to Back.
I can Agree with you on Kidd and his poor Situation. Cp3's had injuries at times but sometimes he just flat out Choke a series away. Like the 3-1 lead to the Rockets. The time they were up on OKC.
Even his last year in LA even though Blake got injured he should have been able to close it out against Gordon Hayward
Logan Kandel Ikkk i was waiting for him to mention Isaih and mention how CP3 and the rockets would have won in 2018
Nash was not a terrible defender, he was about average because he was a great helper. Aside from that most of your points are valid
Chris Paul averaged 26 points and 10 assists on 50/35/94 splits in the last 3 games in the rockets series how did he choke it away?
@@DQ_Senpai Chris Paul didn't choke that Clippers/Rockets series. The rest of the team disappeared. Also Josh Smith turning into Klay Thompson for one game
How come no mention of Isiah Thomas? To me, Zeke’s prime is the best version of a true point guard with great scoring ability. He also led a team to back up back titles. #badboys
it helps his point even more because when his assist numbers went down because they weren't as reliant on his playmaking they got to 3 finals in a row winning two of them, I'm surprised he wasn't brought up
stealthiscool but even when his assist numbers went down and he scored he still played like a pure point guard. He was a gifted playmaker who could score. This may be a stretch but to me, Zeke is like if Kyrie had Chris Paul’s tendencies and IQ.
Billups on the 04’ Pistons was a true pg
@@stealthiscool i mean his assist went down by litersly one fucken assist 😂😂😂 what's the difference ??? So avg 9 assist instead of 10 is makes a team oh so much less reliant on the floor general 😂😂😂 cut the crap man Isaiah oroves this bs wrong
John Barnett bruh did u pay attention to the damn video lmao. He never said there was anything wrong with focusing on facilitating as long as you’re still a legitimate scoring threat (which as u said, isiah Thomas was). All that does is prove his point further.
This might be a bit biased since CP3 is my favorite all time player but I feel like one of the biggest factors that kept him and most likely will keep him from winning a championship is being on teams where either he is injured in key situations or other important players on the team are too injury prone to consistently perform at their highest level
Edit: sad
Ben Brown I agree because if CP3 didn’t get injured in game 6 with the rockets, he could easily have gotten a ring
@@jmoore2299 Well you also have to mention the fact the Warriors didn't have Iggy.
Iggy individually wasn't as good as CP3 not even close however, Iggy played just as big a role for the Warriors as CP3 did for the Rockets.
@@HaveFunLosingBro his role wasnt that big
@@martinlopez2148 but his defensive impact was pretty big. Of course, I would've taken the Rockets in that situation, as Chris Paul probably would've reduced the chances of Houston getting that cold, due to his versatility on offense, but Iggy had a pretty substantial role for the Golden State Warriors, due to his defense.
Bro cp3 don’t count at all
again: John Stockton and Karl Malone reached 5 Conference Finals together. Calling that "lack of success" is weird. If you go through all NBA Legends, that had less success, you will create quite a list. Now if you aproach a Titel or Bust mentality, then you are right.
But still, not using the Stockalone Jazz as a blueprint to build your Championship Roster looks like a smart idea. The "double digit assists doom you" stat is quite amazing. But one should also give credit to Malone and Stockton, that they both made this insanly predictable system work.
Yet, the "Ture Point Guard as your 2nd best player" approach worked better then collective tanking does these days. Just think about it... All the multiyear tanking projects so far led to 1 Finals Appearence by the Thunder and 3 Conference Finals... And there have been a lot of tanking projects, weather by choice or pure incompetence, in the NBA...
I mean, everyone knew they were both great players. This video is focusing on the system that make guards to be the only passer. I think the point is that Jazz can win more with better system.
Yeah maybe you could say no success is a stretch but with all the intangibles in play you can see that they clearly limited they're limiting their success by forcing a certain play style is it their fault maybe maybe not but that's the dynamic we can see with hind sight
@Curly Que TP was not a true PG. The Spurs' offense didn't even work through a true PG
@Curly Que Tony Parker is not a true point guard, and in the modern era of the NBA, having a true point guard isn't as big of an advantage as it used to be. Despite the need for perimeter defense increasing, the need for perimeter shooting outweighs that, hence why it's harder to win, if your star player is a true point guard. Of course, Chris Paul was insanely close in various occasions, but he was also incredibly unlucky.
@Curly Que All of those names you listed were in much better teams with more than just 2 overall great players that carried the franchise.
Magic had a 4 year stretch 1985-1988 averaging 22.8 PPG on 54.5% FG so he was a really good scorer so Magic really doesn’t disprove your point
Keyan Dehghan shitty??
Len Walker yes the west sucked ass, name me a good team from the west in the 80s Outside of the Lakers
@@skywalker2676 The rockets for a 2 year window before crack and injuries
@@skywalker2676 other than those Rockets with a healthy twin towers duo as well as Denver and Dallas, not much else.
@@skywalker2676 Blazers were really good in that Era
Jason Kidd as the primary star had a shot to win a championship in 03 but Tim Duncan is phenomenal, and made the finals previous year but his team virtually stood no chance against a fucking prime Kobe & Shaq...i disagree wholeheartedly with your jason kidd take
not understating the greatness and leadership kidd had with those nets but it took an extremely weak east and alot of luck to make it to the finals twice.
I'd say Detroit's 89-90 Championship season is the closest case that we can get, if we count Magic out and consider Steph a Combo guard.
Zeke was averaging 18.4 ppg (leading scorer) while dishing 9.4 dimes per game that season. Too bad Rusty doesnt mention his name at all throughout the video.
He did address this in the video with CP3 it's a little different with an aggressive scorer who can get a lot of assist
New Royal. That’s a perfect description of Isiah Thomas
@@itsmike5757 Do you mind pin pointing me where he mentioned IT? I watched the vid again as soon as u commented. But I couldn't find where he talks about Zeke. He did mention CP3 name around 5:35 mark tho
Don Lee he wasn’t saying he mentioned IT , he was saying he addressed that point guards that are like IT when he mention cp3 earlier. It was the part about aggressive guards not being included in this type of argument.
James Robert what the fuck are you talking about? His very first comment was about Zeke. Are you good?
People are bringing up Zeke but not bringing up the fact that he shifted into a more score first mentality when the playoffs - more specifically, the ECF and Finals came around. Yes he was a true point guard, but he played more like the cliche "he's not a true PG" guard when he needed to win at the highest stage. That's also what made him better than everyone mentioned here.
Also true PG is not getting assist. It's a mind state. There are plenty of true pgs that have won rings once in a good place. Just like every scorer and big man. Magic, zeke, kidd, Archibald, oscar, cody,
Your video doesnt prove true PGs are overrated. It proves that teams that over rely on any 1 player to do any 1 thing dont win.
oscar aint true point guard but ok
Dewane Welch facts
william smith Oscar averaged 10 assists for the while season 30-10-10
Yes, like Avery Johnson & JJ Barea come to mind for me right away; they just had limited roles on their teams.
Hey, I'm from the future. A team won the championship with a key player avareging double-digit assists in both the regular and postseason..
The thing is, the dude's a centar 😂
As a long time Clippers fan, I knew the Lob City Clippers wouldn't win anything until Blake Griffin took the keys from CP, which of course never happened.
I’m curious, what made you a clippers fan before Lob city and Kawhi.
@@codathlete3644 The Miles and Q era. I always pulled for the underdog.
Some Guy I respect that a lot more than Kawhi band wagoners
I never thought theyd win. Blake was never a championship caliber #1 option. Deandre was also not a championship caliber #3 option more like a #4.
Doc Rivers as the GM killed Lob City.
Ring culture really dictates people's views over how effective these types of players are. J Kidd, Stockton, and CP3 all had real chances to win rings but didn't because of things out of their control not because of their play style.
At the very least, a "true pg" is completely unnecessary. Few dynasty teams if any had a high assist pg who was small. Celtics, Lakers, Bulls, Spurs, Lakers (shaq kobe), Heat, Warriors....
Was Isiah high assist? More of a scorer right? Pistons.
Everybody acts like "if it doesn't win a championship every 2 years, it's not useful." I get the goal is championships, but you people are such prisoners of the moment. Like any time a team wins a championship it's "if you don't have 3 superstars on your team, you'll never win a championship." "If your 5 can't shoot 38% or better from 3 on 5+ attempts per game, good luck even getting over .500."
It's this "championship caliber player/coach" crap too. Like nobody was thinking Doc Rivers can get you there. NOBODY. But once 3 superstars come together, he's a championship caliber coach ever since. Just one example that comes to mind recently. These extreme reactions are why I will never subscribe to these lousy talk shows.
30 teams 1 ring it's not easy to win chips alot of top players didnt win rings but doest that mean they're not top caliber players? No usually it depends on quality of roster, coaching n system if u get all 3 right theres ur ring most teams have none or at best 1 or 2 but not all 3 so I agree with ur take
You know what, I will be unsubscribing from almost all because you are right.
Just like the heat, come on Erik Spolstrra is a good coach, pfff, or The flash, the King and the dinosaur, plus, Shane battier, ray allen, mike miller, birdman.. Who would start on any roster. He was just pats patsey. Ty lue was a good coach. Come on LeBron was the coach. They ran the lebron system.
Its funny put Lbj, arguably the best 5 ppl to touch a ball on a team and your coach is a genius because he signed with a super athlete. Lebron is situational top 1, 2 etc game wise. Overall him or jordan, and shaq. Shaq could not be stopped and if he took his weight a little more serious he would have won ten. Defense on shaq was foul him as hard as you can and dont get a career ending injury in the process. The game has not evolved it changed. If i put on shorts instead of pants rhats not evolving. If one team went back to the john stock malone, or triangle type of offense now with a player like shaq or timmy. This 40 3 pointers a game would stop. Your 5 would have to take on shaq posting him up beatin their body up im sure tgey would not have the stamina to get a shot off. Ppl are followers, the warriors werr an anomaly.
"In the last 30 years, not a single championship team had won that championship with a player on their roster who averaged double digit assists in the regular season."
LeBron: Observing carefully
Deadass
As a Steve Nash fan I think his team could have gotten one if not due to the Amare BS suspension against the spurs. Not to mention that him not being aggressive is one of D'Antonis biggest regrets and he said he really wished he made Nash score more because he was capable but not pushed to it like Magic Johnson was.
lol ive been saying forever that if one player averages 10+ assists on your team something is wrong + individual assists are the most overrated stat in the nba
agreed. stats don't always equal rings
Yeah, it's about good assist distribution.
Still think Magic and Isiah are an exception
Assist is not just a individual stat.
You passed the ball and it allowed someone else to score.
fearofsaturn that’s stupid. The point guard is the one who has the ball in his hands most of the game. You’d rather him average 5 a game? If he averages 10 that’s at least another 10 points on the board
Isaiah "Zeke" Thomas won 2 rings with Pistons. Ervin "Magic" Johnson won multiple rings.
Both won Finals MVP too
Thomas is pretty much a modern day PG too, that guy got handles and scoring ability.
Oh hell no rusty, acting like Chris Paul wasn’t about to drop Gsw In game 7 of the western conference finals
He wasn't the best player on the team tho
@@ayo_1876 he was in the playoffs
@@Berserklover10 At times, yeah. That was 'cause he was scoring a bunch of points, tho.
@Keyan Dehghan That too. He was more of an iso scorer in Houston.
He wasn't they probably would have still missed 27 3pt because the Rockets commit to insanity
The team assist numbers for the Jazz were ALWAYS consistently top 6 in the league throughout the 90s. Yes stockton is a playoff underperformer but you have to admit his style was working and leading to wins. The Jazz were consistently winning 50 to 60 games.
If a style doesn't lead to regular season and Playoff wins then know it does not lead to wins.
The Celtics would’ve won more if they had gotten together like 2 years sooner
also kg would be seen as closer to duncan if he weren't as loyal
Point Lucio All facts. KG is one of the most underrated players. He spend too much time in Minnesota
I do hear about KG being talked about as maybe being better than Barkley and sometimes Malone, cause he got that 1 ring.
@Sucky Sucky Fucky Fucky It's close enough to be debatable. Garnett's greater on defense, Malone on offense. But I feel that Garnett can naturally be a better 2nd or 3rd option than Karl.
@@alonedownthere47 just in accolades
Me: Jason Kidd
Rusty: *Wife Beater*
Rusty: On Jason Kidd: Ahh the wife beater
Rusty is a fucking tool for saying that.
10:47
Kobe fans aggressively pounding their chests
Curly Que
True role player more like. Good at a lot of things but didn't excel at one.
Missed the playoffs once because of injury. And the other years took smush Parker, kwame brown, and Luke Walton to the playoffs in the west. Tired of that bullshit being regurgitated, especially when it’s from lebron fans when lebron missed the playoffs last year for the same reason 🤦🏾♂️
@6 languages and 4 degrees hhh bullshit you're literally lying
6 languages and 4 degrees
You just gotta be a hater don't you? Tell me, what star was ever consistently successful without another great player and a good supporting cast?
Floyd Money Mayweather 50-0 GOAT at bricking
All I gotta say is Jason Kidd, magic Johnson, Rajiv rondo, tony Parker, the list goes on but good vid
G2KPOAT yeah I don’t totally agree with this video
Jason Kidd is a perfect example why true point guards are overrated. He had to become the 4th or 5th option in order to win a championship. Rajon Rondo was the 4th option during his championship. Tony Parker had 2 other Hall of Fame Players; one of them being the best powerforward of all time in Tim Duncan.
Magic was the only great "true" point guard to win while being the defacto 1st or 2nd best player on his team.
The only one from that list that avgd 10+apg w/ his team winning it was Magic. You just proved Rusty's point.
Mary Akopyan yea but people don’t averaged a lot of assists and win it’s a team game and a lot of people on the team can average 3+ 4+ assists and win with a true pg is my point true point doesn’t mean high assists idk where you got that definition I didn’t watch the video
lebron james did won this year averaging 10.7 assists jiji. I know this was made a year ago, but just wanted to point it out. Lebrons such a talent
Messed up part is that he wasn't playing point guard lol i hate how good he is
Rajon Rondo is the definition of a "true point" guard. He played a pivotal role in the Celtics 08 team. Wrong again...
watch the video
@@rustybuckets I did. You tried rewriting history with that argument. The 2010 Celtics didn't lose because they relied on Rondo to create. They lost because Ainge traded Perkins anticipating they'd be playing the Spurs in the Finals. Obviously they played the Lakers and now they had no "true" Center.
@@tracymorgansbelly3322 Kendrick was injured that year, not traded
@@commentgod9445 Lowry and Parker were combo guards. Billups was a big time shooter and a shot maker. You need to test the theory with extreme case to exclude other factors. That's how researches were supposed to be done. The point is that some people overrate the players with high assists numbers while lacking the attempt or ability to threatend the defense.
Ur stupid. That's all I gotta say 😂
Just came by to say this video aged like fine wine.
It did
the pain
it really did
Recently watched the GOAT documentary you made. It was really well done. Hope you update the Lebron portion once he retires. Maybe you could edit it to make each player it's own vid and then the comparison part at the end it's own vid so we could watch it as a series and you could continue to add players to it as new players enter the discussion in the future. Just my two cents.
Moral of the Story: To win a championship, your team needs to be versatile so defenses can’t cheat against your offense.
So basically you're saying LeBron James isn't going to win a championship this year because he's essentially playing Point Guard full time averaging 10 assists ?🤔
Stockton never won cuz of Jordan not cuz he did not score 20 points per game look the jazz wasn't the best team in the 80s ,or 90s Knicks was better 80s Lakers or Boston the pistons and bulls in 90s. Spurs and lakers took over the west by late 90s even the Sonic's had a better team
Magic Johnson has 5 rings. And John Stockton is more of the most underrated player. Because nobody rates him high.
True PG is someone who can both pass and shoot the long range, pass-heavy pg is not true pg imo
No, long range shooting point guards like John Paxson, BJ Armstrong, Craig Hodges, Trent Tucker, Steve Kerr, Randy Brown, are definitely NOT true point guards. Although they fit the triangle to a tee.
@@maryakopyan3224 tks for the input 👍 my point is just that someone like Tony Parker or CP3 who can facilitate, spread the floor and sometimes even penetrate deep, in short a multi-level threat, feels more like a true PG to me 😆
Tony Parker?
He's a combo guard
@@thetruth619ful He was a point. Not a combo guard. Did you see him play?
@@lorenzohaynes3886 he was a combo guard he had the scoring ability of a two and the playmaking ability of a point
Ain't a pass first point
@@spritedan6672 Combo guard is just another way of saying score first guard. In today’s NBA it means score period. The rest of your game can be garbage. And calling someone a true point isn’t saying they can’t score. Parker was a true point. The first evidence of that is Pop doesn’t use combo or score first points. Not to mention Parker ran the offense like a true point. When he needed to be the scorer he did. But mainly he ran the offense like a floor coach. Like I said. Did you see him play?
Chauncey Billups, Parker, Thomas, Lowry are all true point guards who won rings... its not about the assist average that makes you a true point guard cause the role of the point guard is not to average 10 assist but to run the offense the right way.
True point guards with championships:
Zeke
Rondo
Billups
Kidd
Magic
Parker
Cousey
Payton
Frazier
Jacob Smith lowry
@@dannychicaglo6944 last year... But correct so I don't know where this dude gets the idea that true point guards can't win championships lol
Jacob Smith they can’t win if they’re the leader
They didn't avg 10+apg when their teams won it. Magic was the only one who was at the height of his powers when his team won it. The rest were either before or after their primes.
He also said John Stockton was overrated
Cp3 is a great true point guard because he is also a good scorer so he can get assists of his threat of being a scorer.
0:10 using the word “proof” pretty liberally there. It was more like an extremely subjective video of mostly opinions and a small amount of skewed stats.
Lebron averaged 10.2 APG this season. Finals MVP.
Averaged 8.8 in the playoffs and 8.5 in the finals.
He mentioned this point in the video, if your like a top 5 player it takes away this point
So what about scoring guards like Allen Iverson, Damian Lillard, James Harden, Russell Westbrook, and Derrick Rose who played the one and scored the ball and never won a chip. This angle is misconstrued. Jason Kidd made finals appearances while him running an offense in the nets days. Only one person in that scoring guard list, in which each of them had seasons averaging more points than Kidd, ever made a finals. You could take this angle on any type of guard. Why? Because point guards dont win championships in this era. Steph is an outlier and even if you use steph. Their are more cases in the last decade of wing/fowards being the focal points of sucess than pgs. This isnt a “true pg” thing. Its just a pg thing.
Great point. I don't remember the last time a team won a chip with a point guard being the best player on the team. you could say Curry in 2015 but Kyrie and Love were hurt in the finals.
MegaKhalid121 Steph has dominated the league and made the finals and won. Him and kryie have both been pivotal in winning finals/playoffs
Derrick Rose had one prime season why would you use him. Russel Westbrook averaging double assist didn’t lead to wins like the video says
Andre Ricardo Bryant Steph curry l???? TP wasn’t the best player on his team Tim Duncan was
kyle lowry a true pg?
sure is
Probably
No he doesn’t pass every play and gets assists through the team moving the ball
@@timothykane8712 so ig he's a power forward
and Billips
CP3 would’ve been able to break the trend if it weren’t for his damn hamstring.
That was post his 10+apg seasons, so no. But it would've put the cherry on top of the sunday to his individual career.
Jason Kidd still led all players in the 2011 Playoffs in Assists, Steals, and Three-Pointers made, at 38yo. So he might have been past his prime, but he was still a big part of them winning it all. Iverson always gets credit for carrying the Sixers to the Finals, but Kidd did the same thing in back to back seasons, and the Nets teams Kidd carried there were arguably worse than the Iverson Sixers.
Stephon Marbury was an All Star with Nets in 2001 before being traded to the Suns in exchange for Kidd in the summer of 2001, and Marbury was NOT a "true PG". The Nets won 26 games that season with Marbury. Kidd took that same Nets Roster, and he led them to 52 wins and a Finals appearance in 2002 and 2003!
Look at who Kidd played most of his career games with, until he got to Dallas he never played with another truly great player, but once teamed up with Dirk, even a past his prime Kidd was able to finally help the Mavs get over the hump within 3 seasons, something Nash couldn't do with Dirk even in their more prime years. CP3 was also surrounded by great talent for most of his career, and he always wilted. Stockton was a great stat compiler, but he played 18 seasons next to the 3rd leading scorer in NBA history, somebody in that duo was not playing up to their stats.
What about Magic Johnson? Isn't he a true PG? Also Kidd could've pulled a Durant and signed with the Spurs right after he lost to them in the Finals, and he could've coasted to at least a few championships, which also would've destroyed your narrative against his play style.
This is the sequel of the last vid
Stockton vid and true pg vid is the spin-offs of TheNBAStoryteller ‘s video
The disrespect of not mentioning Isiah Thomas....for shame
Who's here after CP3 made the finals
Don’t win rings
Magic wasn't a true PG lol, more a freak of nature who excelled at passing
SalaCommander26 you the only person I ever heard say that
@@cjcooper8836 me
I think this take is unfair. Most of those point guards you mentioned either got unlucky with team injuries or had a bad supporting cast. The last one ran into MJ in the finals.
It's hard to win a championship with true point guards because its a scoring league always been nba shapes the league where the guy that is competitive and will score 50 will win championships changes rules for these types of players and allows many calls to not be called on them
Look, I really like most of your videos, but I think this video is just wrong. You named Stockton, Nash, CP3, and Kidd as “true” PGs who never won as integral pieces. That’s true, but it’s severely lacking in context. I’ll break down why that’s the case for each of them:
Stockton:
The Karl Malone/John Stockton Jazz took years to figure it out. They were too young and inexperienced in the early-90s, choked in the mid-90s, and when they finally figured it out they were beaten by Jordan. For the record, I believe Jordan pushed off before the shot that won game 6, and I wholeheartedly believe the Jazz would’ve won game 7.
Nash: this man is straight up cursed. The Suns peaked at the same time as the Spurs, and every loss has context. Well, mainly the same context: injuries, or (in one particular case) a bullshit suspension after an egregious foul, in a series where the Suns would’ve won. And then Kobe came back with a mother fucking vengeance.
CP3:
Do not even TRY to blame him for his playoff failings. Barring injuries, he was the only one giving the opponents trouble.
Kidd:
When would he have won? Against the Kobe-Shaq Lakers? Against the Spurs who beat the Kobe-Shaq Lakers IN SIX? Or against one of the greatest defensive teams OF ALL TIME.
If Jordan had been called for a foul in ‘98 at the end of the game, Stockton would no longer fit your argument.
If the ref didn’t give Amare a suspension for reacting reasonably to a hard foul (arguably a tech) against his best teammate, Nash wouldn’t fit your list.
... Kidd just got unlucky that the Pistons figured it out and that VC is the laziest transcendent talent of all time
Matthias McCormack this is the realest thing I’ve ever read. Rusty kinda fucked up here
@@nickmcmurray3130 he didnt because with all of this talking they still have no chips everyone has excuses from what we can see from trends it's clear as day you have a better chance without true pgs you of course can have different dynamics but saying Jordan or shaq and kobe was in the way well those kind of players exist lol you play basketball to beat teams not get lucky that you don't play against kobe it's a flawed logically argument the kind you can make and put your point across but still everyone can see that it just doesn't work because I don't know reality maybe lol
mate your making excuses for things that are apart of basketball injuries happen you train and aid your body to prevent injuries certain play styles are more injury prone nash is cursed is a stretch because curry could be seen to be cursed they lost a whole 3-1 lead but before they got it done nash most likely would of never won a chip just based off the system kobe would of figured it out and he did
Kidd should of beat kobe and shaq well those are basketball players no and they are infront of him no? so true pg and his team vs kobe and shaq which would I choose kobe and shaq why would I not choose a true pg some reasons and I have other reasons to pick a true pg as well but when you weigh the pros and cons theyre just limited
You can't make a point about Stockton by saying you believe they would win game 7 with no proof that's just a hunch they could go to game 7 and get blown out it's like the gsw vs hou games hou always looks promising but they're game style always holds them back so you can never real
Depend on them to win a game 7 you would just have to let the game play for itself
You gotta be a scoring point guard like a Steph Curry.
Great video, but you forgot to talk about how most of those players were assist hunting. Such as rondo slowing down the celtics offense because he wanted to get the assist. Cp3 not taking over a game because he needed to pass, etc.
Can do both score alot and pass alot.
Oscar Robertson did it alot.
Russell Westbrook did it too.
You can pass alot and not get alot of assists too.
Your pass leds to another pass that leads to a assist down the line for someone else.
Run around and get open and shoot and your PG will get extra assists.
Run fastbreaks alot =extra assists.
I loved the vid but I feel like Jason kidds prime was wasted by the nets as the best player he had were Kenyon Martin and a raw Richard Jefferson. I don’t think it is particularly fair to blame his true point guard style on him not having a ring in his prime.
I can smell a good take from miles away and my nose brought me to this video
I appreciate your Content Rusty.
i mean lebron plays like a true point guard as far as his playmaking goes but he also scores a shit ton and he is sort of different in the fact that he is also a scoring threat where his gravity weighs so heavily that it is impossible to stop unlike we see with these players. And steph curry as well while he averages only 8 assists he is also the greatest shooter of all time. this is why we don't see true point guards as much anymore because they have less potential to kill you offensively that no one guards them like they'd guard a player who is a scoring and playmaking threat so it kills the spacing and makes it harder to find an open man that isn't you. Although CP3's case is more that he didn't have anyone in New Orleans, in the clippers he didn't have anyone except for Blake, and in houston well, they didn't make it because he got injured. So i think he could be like a case where he has that true point guard mindset but he scores so well it's hard to leave him open and that gravity helps. people forget CP3 has averaged around 20-25 his whole career except in houston because harden is too ball dominant aka a ball-hog to allow CP3 to be truly effective scoring.
Magic Johnson once started at center in the finals, so he probably shouldn't count as a "true" point guard
One game for a few minutes
Wait isaiah thomas wasn't mentioned. He was the leader of 2 championship teams
Finals MVP too
isiah thomas won two chips with averaging double digit assists
No he actually didnt. The years he won he averaged less then 9 assists.
@Curly Que none of those players averaged double digit assists and won lmao. Isiah didn't either, not in the seasons they won.
@@rustybuckets dude your argument is bogus because first a true point is not broken down to high assist averages. When you measure a pig’s assist it’s assist to turnover ratio. Something you new era basketball fans overlook because y’all are triple double and point fans. A player can have 12 turnovers as long as he scores 40 or has a triple double. True points are quarterbacks. And I noticed you skipped defense like all of you TH-cam characters. Every position has a true identity. It’s way deeper than that. And everybody that watched Stockton knew he was great. You who probably never seen him play a game think you’re the voice on him not being that great? Right, you cannot make a good argument about the position because you do not know basketball.
Jordan>Stockton
Kobe>Iverson
LeBron>Curry
Bird>Isiah
Shaq>Kidd
Russell>Big O
Wilt>West
Kareem>Frazier
Hakeem>Payton
Durant>CP3
Duncan>Nash
Giannis>Harden
Kawhi>Westbrook
Point Guards are a vital aspect to the game. But more often than not there is a Wing/Forward/Big Man that is way more valuable during their era. Height and size will always grant a huge advantage when it comes to being a Super Star and winning Championships. Why do you think a giant man like Magic Johnson is universally seen as the GOAT of point guards?….
CP3 almost won while passed his prime while carrying the load against the best version of the Warriors. Stop playing
No he lost still lol
Kidd carried the shitty Nets to the finals. The dude was a winner.
Bro watch out u just hit my top 2 nba you tubers
Dom got that 1. Spot on lock tho
The best teams simply have multiple ball handlers usually. Lots of ball movement. If one guy is doing everything it's probably because the other guys aren't very good.
True point guards are as old and outdated as the flip phone
The main problem I have with this video is that this applies to every archetype. I think a more accurate phrase is that players win championships when they are not at maximum usage. I can think of an example at every other position ( AI, LeBron during his first cavs run, KG, Dwight Howard) where overusing a star does not help you win a championship and they either won with a better situation or didn’t win a chip at all. This is more indicative of the team makeup than the player’a play style.
You should do a Magic Johnson vs Larry bird video😁!
Bird is the better "all-round player". But Magic had the better career.
@@farhankapadia6814 all around? I mean bird is better creating shot but that's it defense is debateble and playmaking magic is better iq I would also give to magic.
This is 1 of those questions w/ a 2 part answer. If you're white, Bird was better. If you're black, Magic was better.
Your video production values have gotten so much better since 3 years ago, but this is still really good! I hate John Stockton
Didn't Kidd go to the finals on the nets?
When the East was the weakest conference in history (99'-03').
The best offensive players are the ones who BALANCE their threat to score with their threat to pass. If you lean too heavily either way, you won’t be as successful
Like Larry Bird. But true point guards are their own seperate breed.
You're not giving kidd enough credit ..I agree with alot of your points on this. "You'll never win a championship if your best/toughest player is 5'10" - Charles Barkley
When you define “a true point guard” to suit your purposes it is easy to create a flawed argument on that basis. Just for reference here is a list of what I would consider true point guards who have won championships in their career: Bob Cousy (x6), Oscar Roberson, Magic Johnson (x5). Norm Nixon (x2), Maurice Cheeks, Isiah Thomas (x2), Rajon Rondo (x2), Jason Kidd and Gary Payton. Six of the top 10 in career assists have won rings.
What about Isaiah Thomas ?
growwithme DT I said the same thing. He was the quintessential point guard and didnt even bring him up
I’ve been saying this for years ...glad somebody said it ...,I hate playing pick up with true point guard’s....i like playing with multiple player makers
Damn two vids
gotta love the recommendations after cp3 is now going to the finals
Lost tho
dislike for calling JKidd a wife beater
dislike for the truth?
but he is a wife beater
Rusty Buckets 😂
This feels like a First Take Debate, everything is super circumstantial
So lebron is in a system that helps him get assists?
This needs to be voted up
uh no?
Ok
Rusty Buckets ok
Zach Zalvan was
Isaiah Thomas(80s) is another all time great true point guard
In fact PG don’t win rings being the best player of their team....
Definitely see your premise, yet Steph Curry won the finals in 14-15 season. You could argue Curry is really a 2 (combo guard). Then there's bad boy team's 2 rings led by Zeke. So not really.
DON LEE you right but that lead us with 6 in the entire nba history Cousy, Walt Frazier, Magic, Zeke, Billups and Steph (if we consider him as PG). But 4 of 6 of this PG can be label as “True Point Guard”...
@@yvans. honestly none of them are "true" point guards by stat nerd logic except Magic lol none of those players averaged 10+ assists in a season
fearofsaturn average 10 assists the season have nothing to do with being a true PG.... you are considered a true Pg by your capacity to lead a team with leadership and by being a substitution coach on the court. Also Zeke did average more than 10 assists the season multiple years...
Yvans Isaiah Thomas
I always considered Chauncey Billups a true point guard
You’re VERY wrong about Jason Kidd. He led the Nets to two straight finals. Only reason he didn’t win was he ran into two all time great dynasties!
And the Fact that Nets team wasn't strong enough to compete with the Lakers and not strong enough to beat the Spurs..Then again no one in the east 2000-2003 was good enough to beat the west.Thats another video topic
There’s no mention of isiah Thomas here. He was a true PG who won 2 championships. Never the highest scorer on his team except for 2 season I believe.
“The wife beater” 😂💀
I think a better descriptor would be if your best player is your pg your team will struggle to win a championship.
Prime cp was different 😔
Ok this is true only to a degree championships aren’t the only thing to define value and you’re taking it that way true point guards are amazing at taking trash teams and making them great examples Steve Nash, Chris Pau and Jason Kidd but they can’t win rings
Between the Stockton video and this video. The hot takes are outrageous.
Only reason a pass first point guard should be getting ridiculous assist numbers is because his job is managing and facilitating a big 3 or big 3esque force. If your constantly leaning on that playmaking ability of one player it makes things one dimensional.
Magic always had a big 3 esque force, with Kareem being the true big force on the team who could always score in a jam, but also feeding guys like James worthy, Jamaal Wilkes, Norm Nixon, and Byron Scott.
This is weak. Kyle Lowry (and Fred VanVleet) just led their team to a championship. Nash was unlucky year after year (injuries or suspensions at the wrong time). CP keeps getting hurt at the wrong time. Stockton got to the Finals twice, only to face Michael Whasiname. Wife-beater has been to the Finals three times, winning once. Not bad.
Ah poor guy. CP3 just improved yet another team. All games are based on war. Every military needs a general. And if you’re making your pg debate based on assist then you have no idea about basketball to begin with. It’s not your fault. It’s whoever taught you basketball but didn’t teach you basketball comprehension.
Gary fucking Payton said he'd rather guard mj than try to guard Stockton in a game. So ima take his word for it
what about the Isaiah thomas and chauncey billups? .. even magic was true pg for me.. BTW kid was instrumental for mavs championship.. rondo argument is funny - if the team arround PG is good it dont count if the team arround PG is bad then theres no ring? even if team arround lebron is bad theres no championship
flaw with utah was karl malone - he shrinked in big lights like harden and also the team was not built to good
problem with talking about this topic is that the guy didnt watch the games, sometimes stats dont tell full storry
My opinion. You can win with a “true” pg. I don’t think you can really win if one player is averaging 10+ (excluding lakers of course) You need to get everyone to flow the offense and not have a player get 14.5 assists and then the second highest assists is 2.5 assists. That does not allow the offense to flow and that keeps people from building confidence and growing as passers and playmakers. Just like if you don’t let some shoot they won’t become a better shooter, if you don’t let someone playmake they won’t get better at playmaking.
This argument is bad because when you limit it to double digit assist you take away other "true point guards" who won a championship like isaih thomas or walt frazier.