Natural-Horse-Man-Ship was a term coined by Pat Parelli. Yes, there are a lot of people out there claiming expertise who think they know because they saw some videos. There is a common thread that works well. If you study the well known clinicians you will find the commonalities. Whatever it’s name it is simply GOOD HORSEMANSHIP that will create the calm partner that’s a pleasure to ride. Whenever I work with a horse I require the owner to take lessons so they will know how to properly handle their horse using good horsemanship. So, simply trashing the words NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP is not a fair assessment of the concepts behind the words.
Hi there, I am not sure if you watched the video at all. I did not knock natural horsemanship at all. Also it is worth noting that Tom Dorrance mentioned the term Natural Horsemanship way before Ray Hunt even taught Pat Parelli. Pat did trademark the term Natural Horse-man-ship... with all the extra punctuation
@@HeartfeltHorsemanship You did nothing but knock it, and you didn't even know what you were talking about. Did you work with Tom and Ray? For how long?
@@BlackKettleRanch I have clearly upset you. I disagree that I knocked Natural Horsemanship in any way whatsoever. I describe myself as a Natural Horsemanship Practitioner, so would never do so. However, there is very little chance of changing someones mind, once made up, over a TH-cam comments section. I had a look at your channel and feel you are doing great things, and wish you well with your work. Of all the things I found admirable about Tom Dorrance, his kindness in any interaction I have ever seen or read was the most memorable. We can disagree with each other and still be respectful and kind to one another.
I think it is the title of your video that threw me off. It isn't Natural Horsemanship that doesn't work, as you actually described. It is people not understanding what Natural Horsemanship is. As you say, different trainers have different methods/strategies even though they all may claim to be Natural Horsemanship trainers, they really aren't. When I first started back after not having horses for 39 years, I was desperate to help this OTTB that I had been given. I would hear one trainer for one thing. Another trainer would do another thing. Then people at the barn would run around putting in their two cents. Then I would go to a clinic these barn people, not trainers would recommend. Then someone else would come along and recommend another trainer. My head was spinning. I watched people "wiggle the lead" to make the horse back up and the horse's head was flying up in a nervous wreck. Then I would see them "owning space" by smacking the horse, and following it into submission. Then I saw these clinicians who were "natural Horsemanship experts" run all the horses at the clinic until they were sweaty. None of these techniques were "Natural Horsemanship." You were spot on when you basically said you need to look at the underpinnings of the trainers, not the label they are putting on their training program. After 2 and a half years, I moved my horses to my house. I work with one trainer, and if I see something on a video that I think is the same style or strategy, I consult with my trainer before implementing. I work with Ryan Rose, who is amazing at Natural Horsemanship. I really just think the title of your video is misleading.
Trust and respect: we expect this from the horse, but we must also reciprocate. The horse is always seeking fair leadership, and freedom from pressure in everything. Empathy, trust, and respect must be felt by the horse. Be as gentle as possible but as firm as necessary, and allow the horse to say no. Stay on this side of their threshold of fear, only penetrating it in very small increments, thereby building their confidence and trust in your leadership. Learn to read your horse because he/she is constantly communicating with you. People ignore the subtle signals the horse is sending to them because they are oblivious to the true nature of the horse. If the horse doesn't do what you ask or expect, there are two reasons: either the horse has not been taught, or the cues are not clear. Both reasons are the handler's fault. It's NEVER the horse's fault. Period. Enjoy the journey.
You didn't know Tom Dorrance or Ray Hunt, did you? Natural Horsemanship is a TERM. It's not a term that Tom or Ray prescribed to. There is no one term to describe their approach. Somebody gave it a title for a lack of a better word. How do you encapsulate an entire way of being into one term? Does "Heartfelt Horsemanship" encapsulate and define everything that goes into your methodology? Tom and Ray's approach had to do with life and thinking and feeling and emoting and adjusting to fit the situation. Ray Hunt started over 10,000 colts, and he used to tell us that he never came across a horse where the approach didn't work. I've been training for 45 years, now, and Ray is right. I haven't come across the horse where the approach doesn't work. Call it "the approach." It doesn't matter what you call it. It's about the presentation. It's apparent to me that you don't understand what Tom and Ray were talking about. Maybe you've prescribed to some of the more contemporary NH trainers who bastardized the philosophy and marketed it for profit. Regardless of who you watched, you still don't understand what Tom and Ray were getting at, and this video is mute. You don't know what you're talking about, friend. I'm pissed off at your arrogance and lack of respect. What Tom and Ray could get done with horses would spin circles around you 365 days of the year. Have some humility about your assumptions.
'Doesn't work' because you don't know how to do the process properly. Don't listen to me. Listen to the horse. The horse will 'tell' you if you are doing it right.
That is one of the reasons I listed...Natural horsemanship works 100% of the time if the human is consistent, aware and educated properly in the techniques
Please, please, please, go talk to the Wilson Sisters, I'm sure Vicki, Amanda and Kelly could not only teach you WHY you're wrong, but also that what you've said in this video is true of every single horseman, including you. And that if you'd studied the material, you'd realize what we call natural horsemanship is not a bloody gimmick, but literal conversational communication in real time between horse and rider. Nobodys only learned from 1 person, Nobodys a Master even the Masters will tell you there's still lots to learn, and yeah, sometimes people misunderstand, but I promise you the horse I just saw standing there, is only standing because of the negative reinforcement and harshly delivered redirection that's sure to come if he dosent stand on a dollar bill and hold it Fer ya in a sandstorm bud. I believe the best word to describe you sir.in the Native Austrailian Aboriginal " kangaroo" because I don't know what you are sir, but it's definitely not anything I recognize. "KANGAROO "
Hi there, Thanks for the comment. I am not entirely sure which things I said you felt were inaccurate. The Wilson sisters are fantastic, I am a big fan. At no point did I say I was a master, far from it. The only thing I can think of is me talking about mastering a technique before adding to it.. Learn the rules before you break the rules. I don't know if that is where the misunderstanding comes in. I learnt the methods I was taught in their entirety before I started evolving and combining with others. I am sorry my opinion upset you to the point of attempting to insult a complete stranger, and make assumptions on the techniques used. I have been there and I know it's an unpleasant space, and wish you the best on your journey.. Try leaving judgements and assumptions behind though, they are unecessary weight.
Natural horsemanship is a terminology used by people to make them selfs and the people they’re teaching, feel better about what they’re doing and to stand out from the crowd. It’s nothing more than a “look at me, I’m better than other people” statement. I really like the way Tom, Ray and Buck approach it. But its not “natural “ it’s just good quality, effective, efficient and sensible horsemanship.
I hear you, but the reason I use the term to describe Heartfelt is that there are a number of programs calling themselves "just good horsemanship"that seem to be linked more to tradition and "we've always done it this way" than any attempt to make life better for horses...I would prefer some differentiation.. I realise everyone is on their own path, but I do feel there are some people genuinely trying to be better... and as I try to be I hope to be associated with those
I can’t see how labelling your self as “heartfelt horsemanship” is any different from those who label them selfs with “ natural horsemanship “ Good horsemanship is good horsemanship. Weather you’re using traditional or non traditional methods. Good horsemanship is what ever works for both you and the horse. We all use different tools and trains of thought. A flag in one man’s hand is an effective educational tool. In another man’s it could be a weapon of fear and chaos. I do however agree that performing a particular task for the sole purpose of tradition regardless of the actual horsemanship is probably pointless.
@@leewarrington974 Oh, its not.. I actually love the term Natural Horsemanship, as, for me it covers the process of introducing communication through a horses natural language before trying to "Make"them do things they don't understand.. and using natural laws of physics.. anyway I have described myself as a Natural Horsemanship practitioner for some time.. and far prefer it to simply "Good"horsemanship, as that is VERY subjective... thanks for the comments, it always helps get our videos more reach... I wish you well
Hi there, the aim is to discuss the reasons it doesn't work... none of which are linked to a failing of a scientific, consistent and empathetic program.. Natural Horsemanship only doesn't work when the human factor fails for some reason. Sorry for the misunderstanding
Natural horsemanship ends when you're on your horses back. When you're saddle breaking a horse and they go into a bucking fit. The idolized idea of natural horsemanship is to train off their natural instincts and behaviors but those natural behaviors are based off a fantasy of what horses are like. Domesticated horses have a different herd dynamic than a mustang, the boss horses who tells the other horses what to do are those who are resource guarders and really they aren't that liked by the other horses. Leaders for horses aren't those who'll put them in their place for a slip up but a leader who can recognize anxiety, fear, and uncertainty by just the horses body language long before a explosion happens. *Horses want to be seen and heard by their leaders and it's one of the major problems why natural horsemanship doesn't work.* Because they want to ignore the horses fear. Desctising of natural horsemanship is creating horses that are shut down and weary.
nope... natural horsemanship translates 100% into the saddle.. and if a horse goes into a bucking fit.. you've missed something critical in the process... The term Natural Horsemanship was coined by Tom Dorrance back in the 50's .. referring to using the horse natural language to make initial communication, and then translate that to ridden cues... and using cues that work off natural physics of the horse...so, no, Natural Horsemanship does continue once you are on your horses back
You have zero idea of what you're talking about. Go watch the old Ray Hunt videos of him starting colts at the county fair as well as others. Ray started a lot of Mustangs off the range and domesticated horses. He never liked to take the horse out of the horse. He made a thinking partner out of them, not a subservient minion. You're confused.
@@BlackKettleRanch I do appreciate all the interaction on the post Tina, it drastically increases my Channels reach, which is a big goal of mine; to get the message of a kinder, more empathetic way of working with horses to more people in the industry. I do, however, disagree that I don't know what I am talking about. I have a solid education, and I am continuously adding to that education. I am pretty certain we don't know each other, so I suspect you are don't know my education, qualifications or experience, which means the claim that I don't know what I am talking about is based on a pretty big assumption. If you would rather communicate directly I would love to engage with a fellow enthusiast. there may well be something I can learn from you. Of course, if you would prefer to keep debate on here, I thank you for that.
@@HeartfeltHorsemanship I'm done with you. You're all over the place in your position. It's about the name. It's not about the name. You're knocking what you think is the approach. You're not knocking what you think is the approach.
@@BlackKettleRanch Sorry you feel that way. The video is about the things that make the techniques known as Natural Horsemanship unsuccessful in some circumstances. I like the name for what Tom Dorrance intended it ( as addressed in the video), but this reply was in response to someone saying :" Who cares what you call it?" In the video I address the fact that peopkle say they practice "Natural Horsemanship', but it is not the technique, and then say it doesn't work... these are two very different issues, in my opinion at least. I do, however, respect your opinion. May you be happy.
@@HeartfeltHorsemanship As mentioned, Ray Hunt repeatedly told us that he has never not seen it work. I have never not seen it work. I was told that Tom Dorrance never prescribed to the term. Again, read my other posts. "Sorry you feel that way." The cop out statement of the new generations. What a bad post this is.
@@BlackKettleRanch Yup, I have never seen it not work either... but when people feel it doesn't work is: when they don't do the work or they confuse methods. From your comments I am under the impression you knew either Tom, Ray or both, which is a huge honour, and I take your comments to heart. Which is why I have replied to each one. Obviously I can't convince you. Which is okay. Discussions are engaged in to share ideas, not to convince the other person to adopt your opinion. This video was done to address the fact often people say Natural Horsemanship doesn't work, when it's one of these reasons, which are actually about the human, not the horsemanship. No disrespect to you. I wish you well, but I do feel I addressed the issue that arises often in the horse industry. Maybe not entirely, but there are limits to how much can be covered in a TH-cam video. Any lack of clarity is unfortunate, but at least it has discussion occurring... and thankfully most of it is from people defending more empathetic approaches...that is very encouraging for me, even if it comes with some criticism of me. I have broad shoulders I can take it.
Natural-Horse-Man-Ship was a term coined by Pat Parelli. Yes, there are a lot of people out there claiming expertise who think they know because they saw some videos.
There is a common thread that works well. If you study the well known clinicians you will find the commonalities. Whatever it’s name it is simply GOOD HORSEMANSHIP that will create the calm partner that’s a pleasure to ride.
Whenever I work with a horse I require the owner to take lessons so they will know how to properly handle their horse using good horsemanship.
So, simply trashing the words NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP is not a fair assessment of the concepts behind the words.
Hi there, I am not sure if you watched the video at all. I did not knock natural horsemanship at all. Also it is worth noting that Tom Dorrance mentioned the term Natural Horsemanship way before Ray Hunt even taught Pat Parelli. Pat did trademark the term Natural Horse-man-ship... with all the extra punctuation
You're the most on the mark with your discussion on this thread.
@@HeartfeltHorsemanship You did nothing but knock it, and you didn't even know what you were talking about. Did you work with Tom and Ray? For how long?
@@BlackKettleRanch I have clearly upset you. I disagree that I knocked Natural Horsemanship in any way whatsoever. I describe myself as a Natural Horsemanship Practitioner, so would never do so. However, there is very little chance of changing someones mind, once made up, over a TH-cam comments section. I had a look at your channel and feel you are doing great things, and wish you well with your work.
Of all the things I found admirable about Tom Dorrance, his kindness in any interaction I have ever seen or read was the most memorable. We can disagree with each other and still be respectful and kind to one another.
I think it is the title of your video that threw me off. It isn't Natural Horsemanship that doesn't work, as you actually described. It is people not understanding what Natural Horsemanship is.
As you say, different trainers have different methods/strategies even though they all may claim to be Natural Horsemanship trainers, they really aren't. When I first started back after not having horses for 39 years, I was desperate to help this OTTB that I had been given.
I would hear one trainer for one thing. Another trainer would do another thing. Then people at the barn would run around putting in their two cents. Then I would go to a clinic these barn people, not trainers would recommend. Then someone else would come along and recommend another trainer. My head was spinning. I watched people "wiggle the lead" to make the horse back up and the horse's head was flying up in a nervous wreck. Then I would see them "owning space" by smacking the horse, and following it into submission. Then I saw these clinicians who were "natural Horsemanship experts" run all the horses at the clinic until they were sweaty. None of these techniques were "Natural Horsemanship."
You were spot on when you basically said you need to look at the underpinnings of the trainers, not the label they are putting on their training program.
After 2 and a half years, I moved my horses to my house. I work with one trainer, and if I see something on a video that I think is the same style or strategy, I consult with my trainer before implementing.
I work with Ryan Rose, who is amazing at Natural Horsemanship. I really just think the title of your video is misleading.
Trust and respect: we expect this from the horse, but we must also reciprocate. The horse is always seeking fair leadership, and freedom from pressure in everything. Empathy, trust, and respect must be felt by the horse. Be as gentle as possible but as firm as necessary, and allow the horse to say no. Stay on this side of their threshold of fear, only penetrating it in very small increments, thereby building their confidence and trust in your leadership. Learn to read your horse because he/she is constantly communicating with you. People ignore the subtle signals the horse is sending to them because they are oblivious to the true nature of the horse. If the horse doesn't do what you ask or expect, there are two reasons: either the horse has not been taught, or the cues are not clear. Both reasons are the handler's fault. It's NEVER the horse's fault. Period. Enjoy the journey.
You didn't know Tom Dorrance or Ray Hunt, did you? Natural Horsemanship is a TERM. It's not a term that Tom or Ray prescribed to. There is no one term to describe their approach. Somebody gave it a title for a lack of a better word. How do you encapsulate an entire way of being into one term? Does "Heartfelt Horsemanship" encapsulate and define everything that goes into your methodology? Tom and Ray's approach had to do with life and thinking and feeling and emoting and adjusting to fit the situation. Ray Hunt started over 10,000 colts, and he used to tell us that he never came across a horse where the approach didn't work. I've been training for 45 years, now, and Ray is right. I haven't come across the horse where the approach doesn't work. Call it "the approach." It doesn't matter what you call it. It's about the presentation. It's apparent to me that you don't understand what Tom and Ray were talking about. Maybe you've prescribed to some of the more contemporary NH trainers who bastardized the philosophy and marketed it for profit. Regardless of who you watched, you still don't understand what Tom and Ray were getting at, and this video is mute. You don't know what you're talking about, friend. I'm pissed off at your arrogance and lack of respect. What Tom and Ray could get done with horses would spin circles around you 365 days of the year. Have some humility about your assumptions.
Tina Huston agreed.
'Doesn't work' because you don't know how to do the process properly. Don't listen to me. Listen to the horse. The horse will 'tell' you if you are doing it right.
That is one of the reasons I listed...Natural horsemanship works 100% of the time if the human is consistent, aware and educated properly in the techniques
@@HeartfeltHorsemanship Yes.
@@gerrycoleman7290 hey again Gerry!😁
Happy to have found another good equine/human authentic communication channel to watch😁🙏🏼
Please, please, please, go talk to the Wilson Sisters, I'm sure Vicki, Amanda and Kelly could not only teach you WHY you're wrong, but also that what you've said in this video is true of every single horseman, including you. And that if you'd studied the material, you'd realize what we call natural horsemanship is not a bloody gimmick, but literal conversational communication in real time between horse and rider. Nobodys only learned from 1 person, Nobodys a Master even the Masters will tell you there's still lots to learn, and yeah, sometimes people misunderstand, but I promise you the horse I just saw standing there, is only standing because of the negative reinforcement and harshly delivered redirection that's sure to come if he dosent stand on a dollar bill and hold it Fer ya in a sandstorm bud.
I believe the best word to describe you sir.in the Native Austrailian Aboriginal
" kangaroo" because I don't know what you are sir, but it's definitely not anything I recognize. "KANGAROO "
Hi there,
Thanks for the comment.
I am not entirely sure which things I said you felt were inaccurate.
The Wilson sisters are fantastic, I am a big fan.
At no point did I say I was a master, far from it. The only thing I can think of is me talking about mastering a technique before adding to it.. Learn the rules before you break the rules. I don't know if that is where the misunderstanding comes in. I learnt the methods I was taught in their entirety before I started evolving and combining with others.
I am sorry my opinion upset you to the point of attempting to insult a complete stranger, and make assumptions on the techniques used. I have been there and I know it's an unpleasant space, and wish you the best on your journey.. Try leaving judgements and assumptions behind though, they are unecessary weight.
Natural horsemanship is a terminology used by people to make them selfs and the people they’re teaching, feel better about what they’re doing and to stand out from the crowd.
It’s nothing more than a “look at me, I’m better than other people” statement. I really like the way Tom, Ray and Buck approach it. But its not “natural “ it’s just good quality, effective, efficient and sensible horsemanship.
I hear you, but the reason I use the term to describe Heartfelt is that there are a number of programs calling themselves "just good horsemanship"that seem to be linked more to tradition and "we've always done it this way" than any attempt to make life better for horses...I would prefer some differentiation.. I realise everyone is on their own path, but I do feel there are some people genuinely trying to be better... and as I try to be I hope to be associated with those
I can’t see how labelling your self as “heartfelt horsemanship” is any different from those who label them selfs with “ natural horsemanship “
Good horsemanship is good horsemanship. Weather you’re using traditional or non traditional methods.
Good horsemanship is what ever works for both you and the horse. We all use different tools and trains of thought.
A flag in one man’s hand is an effective educational tool. In another man’s it could be a weapon of fear and chaos.
I do however agree that performing a particular task for the sole purpose of tradition regardless of the actual horsemanship is probably pointless.
@@leewarrington974 Oh, its not.. I actually love the term Natural Horsemanship, as, for me it covers the process of introducing communication through a horses natural language before trying to "Make"them do things they don't understand.. and using natural laws of physics.. anyway I have described myself as a Natural Horsemanship practitioner for some time.. and far prefer it to simply "Good"horsemanship, as that is VERY subjective... thanks for the comments, it always helps get our videos more reach... I wish you well
You are wrong in stating ,right at the beginning of this video, that natural horsemanship doesn't work.
Hi there, the aim is to discuss the reasons it doesn't work... none of which are linked to a failing of a scientific, consistent and empathetic program.. Natural Horsemanship only doesn't work when the human factor fails for some reason. Sorry for the misunderstanding
@@HeartfeltHorsemanship this for the clarification...you might want to state this in your video.
Thanks you great insight
Good points!
I guess those dislikes where from people who only read the title...
yeah, that happens a lot. Thanks!
Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Go back and study Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt.
Natural horsemanship ends when you're on your horses back. When you're saddle breaking a horse and they go into a bucking fit.
The idolized idea of natural horsemanship is to train off their natural instincts and behaviors but those natural behaviors are based off a fantasy of what horses are like. Domesticated horses have a different herd dynamic than a mustang, the boss horses who tells the other horses what to do are those who are resource guarders and really they aren't that liked by the other horses.
Leaders for horses aren't those who'll put them in their place for a slip up but a leader who can recognize anxiety, fear, and uncertainty by just the horses body language long before a explosion happens.
*Horses want to be seen and heard by their leaders and it's one of the major problems why natural horsemanship doesn't work.* Because they want to ignore the horses fear. Desctising of natural horsemanship is creating horses that are shut down and weary.
nope... natural horsemanship translates 100% into the saddle.. and if a horse goes into a bucking fit.. you've missed something critical in the process... The term Natural Horsemanship was coined by Tom Dorrance back in the 50's .. referring to using the horse natural language to make initial communication, and then translate that to ridden cues... and using cues that work off natural physics of the horse...so, no, Natural Horsemanship does continue once you are on your horses back
You have zero idea of what you're talking about. Go watch the old Ray Hunt videos of him starting colts at the county fair as well as others. Ray started a lot of Mustangs off the range and domesticated horses. He never liked to take the horse out of the horse. He made a thinking partner out of them, not a subservient minion. You're confused.
@@BlackKettleRanch I do appreciate all the interaction on the post Tina, it drastically increases my Channels reach, which is a big goal of mine; to get the message of a kinder, more empathetic way of working with horses to more people in the industry. I do, however, disagree that I don't know what I am talking about. I have a solid education, and I am continuously adding to that education. I am pretty certain we don't know each other, so I suspect you are don't know my education, qualifications or experience, which means the claim that I don't know what I am talking about is based on a pretty big assumption. If you would rather communicate directly I would love to engage with a fellow enthusiast. there may well be something I can learn from you. Of course, if you would prefer to keep debate on here, I thank you for that.
Agree 100%
Who cares about who calls what what, if something works then it works
Hey June, this video certainly wasn't about the name
@@HeartfeltHorsemanship I'm done with you. You're all over the place in your position. It's about the name. It's not about the name. You're knocking what you think is the approach. You're not knocking what you think is the approach.
@@BlackKettleRanch Sorry you feel that way. The video is about the things that make the techniques known as Natural Horsemanship unsuccessful in some circumstances. I like the name for what Tom Dorrance intended it ( as addressed in the video), but this reply was in response to someone saying :" Who cares what you call it?" In the video I address the fact that peopkle say they practice "Natural Horsemanship', but it is not the technique, and then say it doesn't work... these are two very different issues, in my opinion at least. I do, however, respect your opinion. May you be happy.
@@HeartfeltHorsemanship As mentioned, Ray Hunt repeatedly told us that he has never not seen it work. I have never not seen it work. I was told that Tom Dorrance never prescribed to the term. Again, read my other posts. "Sorry you feel that way." The cop out statement of the new generations. What a bad post this is.
@@BlackKettleRanch Yup, I have never seen it not work either... but when people feel it doesn't work is: when they don't do the work or they confuse methods. From your comments I am under the impression you knew either Tom, Ray or both, which is a huge honour, and I take your comments to heart. Which is why I have replied to each one. Obviously I can't convince you. Which is okay. Discussions are engaged in to share ideas, not to convince the other person to adopt your opinion. This video was done to address the fact often people say Natural Horsemanship doesn't work, when it's one of these reasons, which are actually about the human, not the horsemanship. No disrespect to you. I wish you well, but I do feel I addressed the issue that arises often in the horse industry. Maybe not entirely, but there are limits to how much can be covered in a TH-cam video. Any lack of clarity is unfortunate, but at least it has discussion occurring... and thankfully most of it is from people defending more empathetic approaches...that is very encouraging for me, even if it comes with some criticism of me. I have broad shoulders I can take it.
You have no idea what natural horsemanship is about.