The Thumb Trigger Concept Anew: Iron Horse's TOR
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The idea of a thumb trigger in place of a traditional index finger trigger has come up a number of times in firearms history (the Pieri carbines tested in France and Italy, the Winchester Thumb Trigger .22, etc). The most recent iteration (and the first semiauto one, as far as I can tell) is Iron Horse's "TOR", or "Thumb Operated Receiver". It's pretty simple in operation, with the trigger located high in the back of the grip and actuated by the thumb. It is suggested that this style will be better for precision shooting, better in cold weather, and better for people with a handicap that inhibits use of the index finger. Well, the one of those I can test out here in Arizona is precision shooting...so let's see how the thumb trigger compares to a traditional trigger, with all else remaining the same.
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Respect to Iron Horse for insisting that Ian would do a video on their system, and also awesome logo. I wish them all the best
It looks like something an angsty teen would draw in his maths book at school.
@@TheFirstCurse1 Yes, respect to iron horse for knowing that Ian's review could end up hurting their sales of this gun to people thinking it is a gadget gun that will instantly improve their accuracy. This gun should be clearly marketed to those lacking the ability to fire traditional firearms.
@@DDdrifter "end up hurting their sales" That was not an option.
Company knew exactly what they are doing.
Thumb up, thumb down. Does not matter.
@@JohnsonLobster now that you mention it, it does look like sometime teenage mee would draw. Perhaps that is why I like it
Getting their rifle into the forgotten weapon system before they go out of business...can't tell if they are smart or dumb.
I'm really glad things like this exist for people that want/need them.
Not every product needs to cater to everyone and hopefully this one gets some disabled shooters a chance to get into the sport.
Yeah the problem is when the market doesn't really have enough space for a product, a company can go under, just from the cost of production and warehousing the stuff. Small niche companies rarely work anymore unless they charge out the wazoo
Unless it is run as a charity. I know people like Ben Heck make one handed gaming controllers for people with disabilities. I could see this working better if it is run like a charity, and having people support it for civilian and retired injured and disabled veterans. I think products like these are much needed in all product classes, just like cell phones have accessibility mode, we have lever door handles now installed in all new public buildings, gaming controllers for one handed use etc… I think as a society we really need to support accessibility in all areas of life. But maybe that’s just me…
@@Yourantsally You're right, unfortunately. But then you have examples like the Sig brace which was designed for disabled shooters and then took the industry by storm. The M&P EZ found its market as well.
With 3D printing technology advancing, hopefully more out of the box thinking for impaired and disabled shooters might become more feasible.
@@Yourantsally That's the thing one sees in gadgets of all kinds. What might seem like just a novelty, or useless, lazy, for the average consumer, might be hugely useful for someone with particular issue with their hands, for example. But it's a small market, so the marketing uses really strange examples of an average Joe/Jane having way too much trouble with an easy task. A task not so easy, if you have one functioning arm.
In this case, I hope the folks who get a thing like this for the novelty, off-set the costs, so it stays around for folks, who need it.
Exactly, the more options, the better.
In super cold environments, you could wear 4-finger mittens or the 2-finger type mittens and still be able to shoot. I think the more likely market niche is indeed people with hand problems, as pointed out by many comments, many older shooters suffer from arthritis. Also, with such a system, there is a lot of room to design grips with unusual shapes to suit various disabilities.
You could, but neither is as warm as full "no-can-do" mittens. Which is why full mittens are used, issued and worn. Frost bitten index finger is nothing to sneeze at.
There is such colds, that one cant just pack enough insulation, if it is supposed to fit in the web between the small fingers. Heck there is such cold one prefers to even pull thumb in to go keep company with rest of the fingers for shared warmth.
People don't wear mittens, because they don't know about gloves. They wear mittens, when gloves aren't warm enough.
HahahahahahaHA. No.
Obviously you don't live where or near where I do, just north of Denali.
You choice is to take your gloves completely off and hope you can take the shot before your fingers (even with good liners) start hurting or numb out.
Frostbite is no joke, and once "bitten" you are susceptible in that area for the rest of your life.
@@JD-tn5lz Yup - there are sections of my face (cheekbones) that is noticeably more sensitive to cold than the rest.
Lived in Greenland and that part of the face was the most exposed, the tip of my nose was covered as well as my jaw.
yes, I could see where this would actually work.
@@aritakalo8011 This is why I wish they made aerogel gloves. I've seen ones marketed as that, but I'm skeptical given one company that uses it in their jackets with tests showing them being blasted by liquid nitrogen has poor reviews on the gloves. Although perhaps there really is no material to make mittens obsolete.
The fact that you have 18 rounds through an early generation thumb trigger and it’s even comparable to a refined modern index finger trigger that you have extensive experience on is impressive. I wonder what the difference would be in a high stress scenario. Would a mash of the thumb results in as poor of a shot as a jerked index finger?
I was thinking that with the thumb press, it may be a natural reaction to grip the... uhh... grip a bit harder to compensate for a lack of training on it.
Even with bias, less confidence shooting it for the first time. That's very impressive
@@lostalone9320 high stress situation you fall back on your training. What you feel comfortable with
Wonder how much of that loss of accuracy is caused from the forced grip angle and location, having a high and tight grip provides additional support to keep the rifle from moving, having to go way lower creates a lever and reduces stability and losing the thumb reduces pressure as well. - also, as a left handed shooter, any company that designs their brass to shoot straight back like that can go to hell
i don't know. in real high stress not having an oppositional grip with the thumb may result in loss of control, particularly if running for cover. additionally the trigger guard forces the thumb to be on the trigger, with no safe rest i am aware of. further if i imagine lowering the rifle i can see situations where i would effectively force the trigger against the thumb.
intellectually it seems like an opportunity to fumble and have some negligent discharges.
It would be interesting to see how a first time shooter does with both systems.
That's the only true way to test it
I was thinking, if someone got the gun away from you, they would have no idea how to use it. Hopefully you can take advantage of their confusion and act before they figure it out. Almost like a secret trigger.
@@alphagt62 historically police officers had the same benefit with a manual safety. People who took the firearm away from them would have to take considerably more time to figure out a manual safety they weren’t familiar with as compared to a revolver, which gave officers time to act. It’s one reason officers started to move away from revolvers.
@@evanf1443 most carry Glocks which doesn't have a manual safety
@@surfingtothestars these days glocks are common but there was a time between revolvers and glocks. The 1911 was actually a very common sidearm for police for a long time. Smith and Wesson specifically designed handguns to be used as police sidearms, including designs that had a manual safety (the 4013 is an example if I’m not mistaken). And even today Glocks aren’t the only used sidearm by police, though I agree they are common. A lot of departments require sidearms with manual safeties or magazine disconnects, neither of which glock has. Wilson combat does a video detailing the concept I described in my previous comment if you want to go check that out.
I could see this being pretty useful in an "extreme environment" sort of setting (mittens, really heavy/stiff gloves, PPE, that sort of thing). Ian does mention that it does have the advantage of better protection of the trigger than a traditional trigger guard, and looks like it would lend itself to an application where you might want a completely sealed fire control group for harsh environments. It seems to fit a particular niche market perfectly, but (like everyone else) I don't see it taking the market by storm by any means.
Exactly. Mittens are warmer than an equally insulated pair of gloves. Mittens also don't work at all with a traditional trigger, and often really warm gloves require some odd changes to the traditional trigger, like extensions or removable guards, both of which bring safety issues.
They should have made a bigger hole for the trigger though. I can't see how my thumb fits in there if I wear my heavy mittens.
@@TheZinmo I live in artic and me either cant see that your thumb would ever fit in that triggerguard. Mittens are warmer than gloves but not usable with fingers without making a hole or pouch for your index finger to use normal trigger. As said before snow and ice in that system would make gun just useless.
At that point just don't have a trigger guard
While I have dipped my barrel in snow on numerous occasions, I have never had my trigger guard touch snow. You got to be carrying your rifle in some weird way to have it clogged up.
Well, they've got Ian to do a video on them, all they need now to be a commercial success is get their firearm put into a COD game.
Ironically the very idea of a thumb operated rifle is so niche I bet gamers would suddenly want it on their real rifles.
Can confirm. Source: am gamer
What an underwhelming concept for a shooter unlock. "Congrats on reaching level 64, you have unlocked thumb trigger AR15 that you can't even tell is being thumb triggered because the trigger animation is never animated in games."
I didn't know a MLB fan was a gun nut himself.
Meet me someday.
As a gamer just no
@@Thebensupremacy it is actually in many cases
I don't really see this being popular for guns but I feel like the taser company needs to adopt a thumb trigger. It baffles me while they haven't already. If the taser company had a thumb trigger it would essentially completely eliminate the possibility of a police officer accidentally shooting someone when they meant to tase them. It's kind of hard to mistake your taser for your gun when the triggers not in the same place.
I actually suggested this to taser but I never got a response.
Edit: before you guys go judging people who make mistakes take a look at yourself. Have you ever made a mistake? Have you ever been under severe duress? Did you act absolutely perfectly when you were? We're human. We make mistakes. We all do
You underestimate: adrenaline, how under trained police are, how over worked police is and just plain old stupidity. But it might help.
Fantastic idea!
@@joeojeda4651 Except if this hypothetical police officer suffering from all these issues tries to pull his taser, but pulls his gun, he ain't firing that with his thumb so he wouldn't be able to fire.
*This!* Absolutely this!
Yes, in aviation, the controls are different on purpose so you know instantly what you are actioning. There is a design term for this, told me a pilot.
I met a guy at a range once, he was missing his index and middle finger on his right hand and had a hunting rifle that was a thumb trigger. It was pretty neat.
In very cold weather, where gloves simply aren't warm enough, seems like a real advantage to be able to use with mittens. Very interesting!
Till it gets stuffed with snow or mud
@@MrJord1994 its hunting, not a war. Why would your gun be in the snow or mud?
@@Limpchimps its almost a guarantee opening day for white tale deer in northern Michigan there will be snow and cold temps. Also for coyotes in January and February witch is the most prominent time they are out because of their breading time, we see extremely cold weather in the -f usually -10 to -15.
@@danrahn3968 i think he was asking why they would be on the trigger and grip not the ground
@@MrJord1994 If that trigger area is getting stuffed with snow or mud, then you're in a situation that would take down a normal AR as well.
I'm actually impressed the two results are as close as they are. Familiarity is undoubtedly an issue. Uncountable number of traditional trigger rounds and the resulting muscle memory is going to produce at least a decent advantage over an entirely new finger movement by an entirely different finger and the resulting different hand placement on the grip. Especially for measured, precision shooting.
Be interesting to see results for someone who has at least a few thousand (or even a few hundred) rounds more familiarity and resulting muscle memory build up with the thumb trigger.
It's like driving an automatic for the first time in your life (after only driving stick-shift) and trying to brake with your left foot. Not that you should try that either way - but muscle memory kicks in and if you don't actively keep it in mind you'll be eating the dash two or three times before your body finally realizes "Nope, the left foot won't do anything during driving today"
He was also using a very light trigger for the traditional lower, that also reduces the issues from uneven trigger pull. A novice or irregular shooter with a heavier trigger might have been a better test.
it would come down to muscle memory.
familiarity can be a disadvantage, like anticipating recoil
Question? Wouldn't a thumb trigger also benefit elderly/arthritic folks? I feel like it would put less strain on buggered joints than a standard trigger...
Someone else left a similar comment, so you guys must be onto something. :)
@@peterbills4129 Might well be a benefit, but would there be a sufficient market to make it viable? Seems a little too niche too me
That is the only reason I can think of
By the time you are that arthritic I am not sure you should be handling a firearm at all. You are more likely to be a threat to yourself than anyone else if you have that poor hand control.
it depends, some could have quite a problem to move the thumb in that position, I think in that scenario could be more useful a longer trigger or two fingers trigger
I remember machining those grips when working for the company that manufactured most of the parts for iron horse. I always wondered how they would would go together when finally assembled.
At any point did someone think to stop them and say Skeletonized bad?
@@chevyfried not that I'm aware of... we were a prototype manufacturer and we did actually play a relatively large part in it's design. I do remember remarking how uncomfortable and bulky the grip itself was. I did however like the thumb trigger, that aspect felt relatively comfortable and natural.
No one ever test it fire and notice how it gives you a facial?
@@LS-jv9hp that only happens because Ian is left handed. If you fire this right handed you should have no issues with cases flying in your face.
@@MechanicalRabbits That should still be tested though since 10-12 percent of the population is left handed.
In the context of the thumb not being as stiff as the fingers when cold. I can attest to this being true. I was literally warming my hands up as this was stated in the video even. I can say for certainty that when cold, my thumb is nowhere near as stiff as my pointer finger in all sorts of applications ranging from using handheld leaf blowers to gamepads and everything inbetween.
As my other comment said, I have always liked this concept as an accessibility thing for people who are disabled, but as soon as that bit about finger stiffness was brought up, my only thought was how true it was and that I hadn't ever considered that as a reason for a thumb trigger.
addendum: I say this as a lifelong resident of New England.
And you can shoot in mittens
didnt think about it until now but its probably less stiff for the same reason that the thumb has a pulse (youre taught to never take someones pulse with youre thumb), better circulation
the trigger well is also sealed on all sides but one, which would greatly help in colder climates, especially in regards to wind
Considering your natural unfamiliarity with a thumb trigger, I find this quite a good outcome. Especially considering that you are uniquely familiar with the trigger that you did better with. Duh. It does seem to have an excellent application towards being a winter trigger. Even the military could get into that idea.
There is no way that the thumb of a military mitt would fit in that slot. That is why we have trigger guards that can be rotated into the pistol grip.
@Robert Seaes The standard AR trigger guard is a plate retained with a pin on one end and a spring loaded pin on the other. A bullet tip releases one end of the plate to swing down and allow trigger operation while wearing mittens
@Robert Seaes "Some guns" are "broken"? It's the standard design since the original M16s. I prefer the non-straight trigger guards too, integral or not, but sheesh.
I don’t think the thumb trigger as a winter trigger is a good idea especially being theres already plenty of winter trigger concepts out there, I also don’t think that Ian, a competent shooter who has used standard triggers all his life, is a good control group for comparing the triggers for practical accuracy, I would want to see how a less competent shooter does, and see which trigger is easier to get shots on target.
@@CowboybubPercussion what about the conditions where you absolutely need a full 2 finger mitten with just a thumb by itself?
I have a friend that could use this. He used to be a marksman, but got messed up by an explosion. Lost 3 fingers on his trigger hand, lost his left arm up to the elbow, his left eye, and his right leg up to about mid thigh. He's recovering and walking again (with a prosthetic), but he can't shoot yet, at least not easily. This would get him there since his right thumb is his only full digit remaining (he's got most of his middle finger too, thank God... you can't go through life without that finger yaknowwhatimean🖕). Wish if hard about this sooner... this would be a great Christmas present for him. I'm currently trying to build him a prosthetic attachment that will allow him to hold a rifle again with his left arm... soon as he gets fitted with the prosthetic on his arm, I can fit him with prototypes until we get it done.
Indeed! God bless you and your friend! Here's hoping for a speedy recovery, and bless you again for putting your heart into engineering something that would allow your friend to pursue his Hobby's he enjoyed before the explosion. My friends ex ran him over and he lost his trigger finger so THIS episode was immediately forwarded to him as he enjoys shooting sports as well. This may not be a mass production commercial success but it REALLY does have a profound impact on people like our friends who've been set back to a point that they can't enjoy these sports that they did before. Good on you my friend. All the best to your friend.
I honestly can't remember the channel name, but there's a engineer that made his own prosthetic hand, when he lost all four fingers on his left hand, leaving him with just his thumb.
What he made is mostly based on chains (as in bicycle chains), and he deliberately went for the steampunk aesthetic, but, my God, his second iteration, after much blood, sweat, tears, and likely swearing, is amazing to the point he almost has full functionality in his left hand back ...
Of course the only thing truly missing is the haptic feedback loop that is fully unconscious when, say, holding an egg between thumb and forefinger, where you apply enough pressure to not drop it, but not so much to crush it ...
But, otherwise, it's pretty amazing stuff ... and a very remarkable man, as well.
Hence, if he (said engineer) were a Southpaw shooter like Ian, even with his new hand, a thumb trigger would be perfect ...
As for me ... I never shot a rifle, except for a .144, spring loaded, air rifle, many a decade ago. Whilst here in England, bolt action rifles are perfectly legal, what also is includes a very weird concept of the single shot M4/AR-15/M-16/AK-XX ... with, I suppose, the aim of not even having semi-auto function (although, that being said, although knife crime is pretty bad here in London, the spate of shootings that led to the ban of semi-automatic rifles, has meant mass shootings are almost a distant memory)
... aa for pistols ... the irony is what would be considered a short barrel rifle is acceptable, here, except the rules for pistols are bizzare to the point you have to see it for yourself, as it is beyond my brain to convey it adequately ...
But where I was going is that, for a total novice shooter, if I had the means to be one, having a thumb trigger would be an excellent training aid as it focusing first on shot placement; point of aim vs point of impact, and the other fundamentals, before moving onto the classic trigger, and how to avoid the usual mistakes, not least that only the pad of your finger should be on the trigger. It's a reason, iirc, why the PSG-1 has such an unusual trigger ...
Anywho, once I find the above engineering channel, I attach a link to that very remarkable man, in hopes it will provide inspiration to help your friend ...
(OK, so once upon a time, I was nïeve to think a) I could become a doctor, and/or b) a neuropathologist, or a laboratory technician in neuropathology ...
Got my Associates in Applied Biology, but life went way south (as in near Antarctic South), but that left me with an array of all kinds of text books on Anatomy, Internal Medicine, and Pathology, to mention but a few topics ...
You need not say, but it very much sounds like your friend was caught in the kind of industry explosion on the scale of the Imperial Sugar Plant disaster, which quite literally blew the place apart; or, he is ex-Service whom was deployed to one of the two Sandboxes, and sadly got hit by an IED ...
There is series, I think, still up here, on TH-cam, called 'Taking Fire', about Afghanistan, and in particular, iirc, either US Army or a Marine base, which only had a single road as a point of access, that ran across the front of it. Their usual patrols were often to take a right out of the front 'gate', which caused a SNCO to become almost insane with paranoia, as he was constantly on the watch for the tiniest glint indicating a trip wire. Even his battle-buddy, and men below him, were worried that he was too far on edge ... if not over it ...
... but not without good reason. Their luck ranout, one day ... the lead MRAP was OK, but the middle one was hit by a blast so big, it not only toppled the MRAP over, on to its drivers side, but blew the engine to pieces, and left the front axle on the ground a few feet away. The crater left, that, what was left, indicated it was remotely detonated, was a good few feet deep, indicating that, just as the DoD were spending money like crazy, trying to.build vehicles that could withstand large detonations, the Talibans response was simply getting their bomb makes, using relatively cheap material, not least agricultural grade ammonium nitrate, to up the yields ...
But I digress ...
There wasn't much of the MRAP left, except what that it was, was enough that, at least, the two men whom were lost, died in one piece; a third need a immediate medivac, though, as he was in a serious, if not critical, condition ... which was tragic in of itself, as the Combat Medic whom treated him, was also severely injured during a intense firefight, not many days later ...
Forgive me for going off on such a tangent, but, in reading your description of his injuries, whatever happened must've been absolutely appalling, turning his life upside down in mere moments. The fact that he's lucky to have survived, is as much a testament to the surgeons, and OR/OT staff, that operated on him, to say nothing of the physiotherapists, that helped him through some of the toughest of times (although I think the VA should be part of the DoD, not a seperate Department, fighting for the scraps left over in the Federal Discretionary Budget, along with the rest ...)
And, of course, he himself. To go through that all ... brave is too small a word, although I doubt he would call himself as such. They say there's no substitute for both Character and Integrity; your friend is the living embodiment of both. If he was here, in England, he would be befitting of the St. George Cross, awarded for heroism, but without the engagement with enemy requirements that meets the Victoria Cross, our almost equivalent to the CMoH ...)
[Edit: found it ... hope it helps you in helping your remarkable, if not incredible, friend ...
th-cam.com/users/IanDavisFpd ]
I hope your friend recovers well, and you are an amazing person for what you're doing to get him shooting again.
There is another benefit: pistol grip would be quite easy to design to be quick foldable and protect the trigger during transportation
Very clever!
I was actually surprised that the grip didn't fold. It looks so much like it's meant to.
(I also just noticed that FW's old video on the P90 bullpup is on my sidebar, and now I'm wondering what the thumb trigger would allow for that kind of rifle layout. Perhaps losing an inch of height on the lower/grips and drastically reducing projections/snags.)
You do realize that somebody at Ironhorse just smacked themselves on the face with their palm on reading this. Oh, I'm sorry, they didn't facepalm, they used the back of their hand ✋
that's a really good idea dude
Definite respect for going after a very niche part of the market, though I can imagine it being very popular with people who have disabilities or generally poor motor control in their hands. I could see it doing reasonably well financially, or at least well enough to justify the effort.
Ok
Laymans perspective: You shot the same rough sized group with a completely new trigger system when compared to a trigger you are intimately familliar with (WWSD). One has to consider if you practiced with the thumb trigger for a couple of hundred rounds to get used to it would you actually shoot a tighter group? I think it is worth consoideration of their claims at this point
I love new tech.
Seems like the windage may be coming from the meat of your hand expanding as you flex your thumb. Climbers use this effect to ascend cracks in rock faces.
Damn, is this why my red Ryder shoots to the right?
Bingo! Next lower they try should be a pinky trigger. A for effort, though!
@@cheyannei5983 a Pinky trigger would have to be so light to actuate that it would almost be unsafe.
@@SandyAndy90245 you actually get most of your grip strength from your pinky. though there would be other safety concerns like how you hold the rifle comfortably and normally when your pinky is the trigger. that and the fact flexing your pinky flexes other muscles in your hand would probably make it bad for accuracy
Just have a remote switch and a solenoid, say a grip safety and a microswitch for the support hand on the stock
With the right marketing I could see it being successful. A lot of guns are marketed towards people with arthritis nowadays. Make one with a featherweight upper and stock, call it the granny defender. I guarantee you there is a large crossover between gun nuts and people who love their grandma enough to buy them a whole ass AR15.
only if you keep a balance between production, costs and request
"Thanks for the hand-knit socks, grandma! Now open my Christmas present!"
Tip-up .25ACP pistols and Sig and S&W .380 "EZ" models are intended for that demographic. Now there could be a rifle to match!
Next, there could be a Mossberg chambered for minishells!
Fkn A. My (living) grandma isin't a great person- but my 87 year old neighbor kicks ass. I already gave her a .22lr rifle because she told me she was having trouble hitting the coyotes with her failing eyesight and a Mk II Ruger.
@@mattfleming86 y'all go hunting together?
its like scissors for left handed people 90% of population dont need them but its good that there is that choice for people who do want/need them
As a lefty, having a properly operating scissor is a blessing. 😉
@@ironwolfF1 Im so used to just using my right now I would have to retrain my left to do stuff like that.
The brass flying at your face had me laughing because as a fellow left handed shooter, I know that struggle far too well. Nice video Ian and merry Christmas!
Left handed? You abomination! 🤣
I'd expect there would be ways around the problem (apart from a left handed gun) like an add-on deflector, or eye protection with added face protection.
From another lefty, ya both are lucky your eye dominance matches your hand dominance. Way back to little kid bow and arrow me I was like, there is something wrong. Decided to switch hands on a bow and made all the difference.
When it came to 22 rifle competitive shooting when I was older, I certainly wouldn't have performed half as well if I shot left handed. And even when it came to fencing competitively, it made a difference.
Or maybe I was never a lefty and just cross-handed.
While I can write/draw with both hands adequately, I naturally took to the left hand ad a 2yr with a crayon to an adult with a brush. But through all of this it most be noted that I could not throw a ball with my left ever, far better with my right. The muscle was always naturally bigger. After fencing, it took the asymmetry to comical heights.
@@ferrisbueller9991 As a fellow left handed right eye dominant fellow, yeah. Shit sux.
I am left handed and can shoot any hand
For some weird reason I kept thinking of weird combination guns like OICW and how thumb trigger might be used for different firing mode on a firearm with electronic fire control(where you can have two triggers without trouble as neither is mechanically connected).
I think the thing people are missing is that this puts the web of the hand beneath the line that makes it a California compliant "featureless rifle"
Wouldn't it still not be CA compliant? The trigger was moved to a higher position than a regular AR so the web of the hand is still below the trigger. At least that's what the CA DOJ will say and in CA that's all they need when it comes to gun laws. None of the courts or politicians will push back against the CA DOJ on this issue.
So sad and true
My first thought was that this is so weird California defeat device but I don't really know. I'm not American but I really enjoy funny loop hole things regardless of topic.
Ah, but you wouldn't even notice a grip-fin, properly positioned, as your thumb doesn't need to wrap around the grip anyway.
@@geodkyt I wonder if the grip fin would make this even more stable ? You can rest the fat of your hand on it
Fair play to iron horse for getting Ian to test the thumb trigger (and to be fair, Ian has tens of thousands of rounds through normal triggers vs 18 thumb) but I’m still not sure it has much use outside of people missing an index finger
Well like a few have mentioned, arthritic hands may make it easier to manipulate a weapon with the thumb as well.
@@Rixoli true! And it’s good they have the option.
Just looking at it I think this prevents you from getting a pistol like grip, possibly making this an awesome option for California compliance? Not sure just a thought
@@jonathanlunger2775 that’s a pretty clever idea!
Did he say he shot the THUMB trigger 18 times or was the first 8 the conventional trigger to zero in the scope? Sounded to me like the latter.
I really want to see Henry over at nine-hole take this to the extended range. I think it would be very interesting to see what an expert Marksman like him thinks of it.
I was thinking the same. Ian is a good shooter, but Henry can really squeeze out every bit of accuracy from a system. Their testing methodology also seems to help really get nitty gritty when it comes to such things.
Second this!
@@iatsd you could argue that it doesn’t take 25 years of practice to have equivalent skills with it though. What percentage of that 25 years is experience in areas other than trigger control? That experience can carry over to a thumb trigger without any problem.
Henry is dedicated, he would have his finger surgically removed for proper weapon testing then have it sewn back on for the Hot Wash/AAR.
I am not a shooter, though this is one of my favourite channels. That said I do use a lot or power tools, many with 'pistol grips'. My initial reaction seeing this is ergonomic - would you not lose a great deal of grip control because the thumb is not wrapping around fully to stabilize the 'tool'? On the few tools I have used that require operating a top button with the thumb that is what I have found. That is the concept of the 'power grip'.
While I have no experience with real firearms (and extensive use of power tools either), I do have a joystick that require quite some strength to move. The stick have trigger button for index finger, as well as some thumb buttons above your grip. I have experience similar ergonomic issue, and find that a wrap-around thumb do help with control
You normally grip with thumb wrapped around the stick, and you can easily move it around without issue. But if you need to use the top buttons, your thumb no longer wraps around. It became much harder to move the stick to the right, since you can't use the thumb to push on the side.
In some games, I actually need to reassign some functions to different buttons in order to play well. One particular example is a tank simulator. Modern tank's fire control requires you to track the target for a short time, use the laser range finder, and then fire. By default, the fire and rangefinder are assigned to trigger and a thumb button, meaning I basically cannot grip with my thumb at all times. I do not have enough precision to track a right-moving target and miss quite a lot.
(p.s.: A real tank's gunner control is a two-hand grip, instead of a one-hand stick. You yaw left-and-right to control the turret, and tilt up-and-down to control the barrel elevation. In this configuration you could free up your thumb without issue.)
In context of the firearm, you probobly dont want to kick a door down with it. The thumb being on the backstrap and the grip veing so low ita just not going to be a "fast" rifle
I believe this is a valid criticism; firearms are tools just like any other, though their intended use may differ.
Actually, shooting doesn't require a thumb grip, since sending the round down the range doesn't involve handling lasting power rotation with that grip. For a power tool, it would definitely be a disadvantage.
A good friend of mine, his ex wife ran him over and he lost his trigger finger so I am super happy you did this Ian. I forwarded to my buddy so he can hopefully use the option of thumb trigger application for his platforms. He is a shooting enthusiast and the incident really handicapped him in the way of shooting and ability to use Various platform's. Thanks Ian! I'm so glad you did THIS!
“Thumb triggers come and go and I’m not sure youll appreciate my review” pretty savage off the bat
On the other hand, I can't help but think of the scores of people that would even go as far as pretend to be enthusiastic just to seal the deal.
There's nothing better than taking a few minutes off at work and watching a video of Forgotten Weapons while I sip my coffee.
Or school.
Same Here Bro
Amen
Literally just thought the same thing.
cool story bro the drive thru is backed up
The greatest innovation of this rifle is the IADD - Ian Assisted Deflector Device
The IADD wouldn't come into play for a right handed shooter.
@@davidlobbestael7770
Somewhere out there is the equivalent of a british bus in India letting people exit on the traffic side. Someone gets hit in the face with brass ejecting to the left shooting from the right shoulder cause it was passed down and all the rest of the family are extreme lefties just not the youngest.^^
Reminds me of the M16A1 I had in training. The brass from my very first zero shot landed on my right cheek, and stuck. And just like that, I was a right-handed shooter.
Try catching a face full of brass from an M-249 going full auto bursts while your trying to get the Lcpl to hold fire cause he cant hear shit cause his plugs didn't do their job.
@@jericho1-4 - Imagine an AG not understanding how to move out of the way, not knowing where to be, not knowing touch is an effective signal, thinking a gunner can magically change the path of ejected brass, and assuming that their resultant discomfort from their own confusion is somehow more important than the situation requiring suppressive fire from their position.
@@Phantom0fTheRouter you said that better then I could have and nicer haha.
Some people's comments make me wonder how they even tie their shoes and then I remember people like this are raising kids and all i can do is say to myself is Lord help us all.
Ian: I sure hope this doesn't throw spent brass in my face...
Iron Horse: Ladies, and gentlemen, we got him.
He should have pointed out he was shooting a right handed rifle left handed.
@@1smallball I mean we can all see that in the video
@@1smallball Alternatively, they should have tested whether the brass deflector they machined into the upper was functional or not. Ars have had brass deflectors for ~40 years, it's not a revolutionary concept.
@@1smallball Anything 'left handed' as a mod of something right handed standard always costs more, and often just isn't as well manufactured/designed.
*^~≈≠~🚬q°_J°p_👍-👍
♨️Ian loves hot spent loads down his clothes. Brass upon face. Slipping into collar the case makes him chortle “thats hot” shoł after shoł, in his show.
As a Finn I know cold weather and shooting. I love the concept and was interested of buying one of those ...until @3:40 when I saw the trigger.
I assumed that it was a vertical button on surface of the pistol grip, but instead it is finger hole.
How the f**k are you supposed to fit your thumb into that narrow hole when wearing thick mittens or gloves ???? I think this "cold weather" gun designer has never even seen snow.
Not to mention the the lumps of packed snow hanging from you mittens/gloves. Aaaaand even if you managed to squeeze your thumb into that hole then pretty soon the hole would be packed full of frozen and packed snow.
Kinda makes it obsolete when you look at triggers in the snow. You can use two or more fingers on a specialist trigger with extended guard and be able to operate in arctic temps with relative accuracy and avoid the snow issues. Think they should open the walls a bit, maybe have draining ports or make cleaning it easier.
As someone who can legit drive to their address in less than an hour. I have No Idea what they were smoking when they chose to make it like that. But can confirm we do get snow here.
I suppose the current design had the advantage of being ambidextrous, and therefore, simpler, not to mention a trigger guard for a trigger on the side of the pistol grip might be tricky to design.
We had the Winter Olympics here in Utah where this gun is built so yeah there’s snow lol. How are you supposed to get huge mittens or gloves into a normal trigger guard?
@@dallaswood4117 you don't, but unless your gloves are real thin, they're not fitting into that tiny little slot.
It seems acceptable for static range shooting, I'd be interested to see your thoughts with it on something more dynamic like a carbine match or 2 gun
You'd have to develop an entirely new set of muscle memories. Until you do your performance would suffer as you reflexively did the wrong thing. That doesn't mean the new system is worse, just different.
I would be interested as well. With the thumb trigger you can't clamp the grip, so maybe issues with fast movement.
I think it should be fitted with a shorter barrel (and a deflector that deflects) and tried on a timed course.
It would be interesting for training newcomers on thumb vs finger
Maybe this is just because of an old injury, but just the though of repeatedly squeezing with your thumb in that position makes my wrist hurt.
My first thought too, maybe something you put your remaining fingers through like a brass knuckle could help there.
Another point is that you got very similar sized groups when using a conventional trigger rifle, which you have plenty of experience with, and an unconventional trigger rifle which you have virtually no experience with, it might be interesting to see the difference in grouping when someone who has similar experience with both types tries it.
Maybe introduce it to a new shooter? One who has never fired a gun?
@@MildMisanthropeMaybeMassive Nice idea and worth a try.
This is exactly it. The difference between the two trigger systems is probably less about mechanisms and more about shooter skill. A lot of the variation in that group is shooter skill. Since Ian has far more time on conventional triggers, you would expect him to shoot the conventional trigger better. He's put the time in to build muscle memory and avoid pulling shots left or right for instance.
He would really need to go through an extended training cycle with the thumb trigger rifle in order to get a true apples to apples test. I doubt he's willing to do that and I don't blame him. Since the groups were comparable, I'm not quick to dismiss the thumb trigger out of hand.
So basically you'd get a novice shooter to shoot some groups with both a thumb trigger rifle and a standard rifle. That's the only type of shooter I think would have similar experience with both types of triggers, in that the shooter here has zero or very little experience.
@@MildMisanthropeMaybeMassive Definitely this. Good trigger control with a traditional trigger is an acquired skill that can be challenging to learn for many. No telling whether the thumb trigger would be easier, but would be interesting to see whether it could be more intuitive or have a quicker learning curve.
this rifle gives "put a thumb in it" a whole new meaning!
And you can't hitchhike with it either.
Reminds me of Kentucky Ballistic incident haha
Scott needs this rifle.
I can definitely see a use case for this in precision and cold weather. Growing up on video games gave me better thumb dexterity, and Iron Horse isn't wrong about your index getting stiffer in the cold than your thumb
Reminds me of the phaser sidearms from Star Trek TNG through Voyager. Those had thumb triggers as well.
Cool idea, very handy for disabled shooters. I could see it giving people who wouldnt otherwise be able to shoot the ability to go to the range again. I dont see it taking target shooting by storm but I could see hunting rifles adopt it some if its cheaper to do. It seems a lot safer when going through brush or climbing up a tree stand and it takes a lot more concious effort to use than a conventional trigger. May make it a bit less prone to ND's by inexperienced or careless shooters.
I have arthritis since my early 20's and always struggled when shooting high volumes of ammo, for instance during brm in Army BT. Over the years it has gotten worse, and trigger jobs are expensive.....I can definitely see the benefits of this thing.
I just wanted to write this. I don't have but I always feel a little iffy shooting with my joint close to the trigger. Having something hard pressing against it feels just unnatural to me. A Thumb's last bit is 50% longer than of an index finger, so maybe there's the reason why we don't play videogames with Joysticks anymore but with thumb-operated game pads.
I can't help but think that a Thumb-trigger would be more comfortable on a regular rifle grip as opposed to the pistol here...
Also that bit about thumbs in cold weather is true at least for me, my index is always the first to freeze.
for people with raynaud syndrome.
@Lassi Kinnunen 81 well that would be design issue. Just widen the protective wings. However it does have the base benefit, that one can shoot with full mittens. Since thumb is left to it's own still on mittens. Where as one would have to use somekind of rotate away trigger guard or use less warm gloves, take off the outer mittens.
I could see ot usable for example for polar bear defence rifles for arctic expeditions. Specially if it is to be equipping someone not otherwise often using firearms. Thus not having the "you are supposed to pull with index finger" muscle memory. Then again semi auto is jot usually thing for those, but well marry it with a manual bolt upper.
"Polar bear comes danger close, push the button with your thumb"
Actually, yeah, a thumb trigger with a rifle stock (or CA legal stock, lol) would be far more comfortable.
I think thumb trigger would be interesting prospect to explore further to see where you can develop the ergonomics. If nothing else, they seem to be perfectly functional when done right.
Would be kind of funky to see a modern rifle with a Tanegashima musket style musket grip that's got a really light thumb trigger.
My father lost part of his trigger finger to a saw many years ago. I wonder what he would think of such an interesting design. I like it because it's out of the norm.
The fact that he's willing to put it on the line to someone who flat out told em' they might not be happy with a review from says a lot on its own really.
It says he wants free publicity, good or bad.
Having Gun Jesus say "There's exactly nothing wrong with it. I just don't need what it does" is a whole lot better than a ton of expensive marketing. Being pretty confidant that they would get that verdict, however, tells me they did their homework. They may want to address the deflector issue though, as they're the only game in town for people with nerve damage or missing fingers. Some of those are bound to be left handed either by nature or by circumstances...
It's confidence in your product.
I've served in some very cold winters and can see the merit of a thumb trigger in those circumstances where the index finger does indeed get very cold and stiff.
But having to put a gloved thumb inside that small "cavity" is not going to be easy either, so if I were to design a thumb trigger for arctic (military) service, I'd place the trigger on the side of the handgrip, perhaps operated by a more forward than downward motion.
I do however doubt that militaries will invest in special lowers (and the associated training to use them) unless perhaps in very small (special forces) numbers - all the regular grunts will just be told to wear mittens and open the trigger guard on their C7's or C8's, enabling them to press the trigger with the realitively warm index finger inside a nice, thick mitten.
For civilians with various missing/disabled fingers, the option of a thumb-trigger is an entirely different matter.
I take taking off a 'hood' of just the thumb while 4 fingers are left in a big mitten when it's really freaking cold. Placing the trigger to the side brings a lot of issues. You still have to cover it, so you need a bubble or cage around it that's pushing against the kit while slung in front, excentric force, not ambidextrous, in the way of other controls. But I agree on the forward movement. Pushing against a button when the thumb is almost straight causes far less movement below. I guess that would be a pain to make it and the length of a thumb differs quite a bit. But with printing grips, it could be very ergonomic to the individual.
I’ve shot while wearing heavy winter gloves and found trigger manipulation to be the least of my problems (more so with pistols). With decent training, one should be pressing back on the trigger until the gun fires then releasing to the reset point. I don’t want to stir up a hornets nest, but I think trigger “feel” is overrated.
@@fuckingpippaman I like your idea. Perhaps a grip safety on the back, like a 1911. Or on the front , akin to the HK P7.
Sounds like you just (almost) exactly describes the winter trigger found on the Swiss PE-57 😄
I'm thinking just a wider trigger guard for the thumb. Bow out the sides like a chunk of pipe, instead of straight down.
This same setup is featured on most Gi Joe action figure guns. 100s of Gi Joe's and their armorers can't be wrong. Even COBRA got on board with this concept. Yooooo Joe!!!!
I always used my thumb to grip my work rifle when moving, standing and aiming I do not think I would enjoy losing that control.
Ian, congratulations on getting the industry-wide video noise issue under control. At last we can watch shooting videos without everybody in the house jumping at each shot!
That fact that you can just by the lower is a really good selling point. I also can see this concept apply with an electronic trigger, like an old Atari joystick.
Could be interesting to see someone with much less shooting experience try both, as they won't have the thousands of hours of practice with normal triggers that Ian does.
As for their winter friendliness though, I would assume a normal trigger with a winterized trigger guard would work better than trying to jam a gloved thumb into the small thumb slot without accidentally firing the gun.
I agree It would also be interesting to see rapid fire, as this might exaggerate the effect of one trigger type vs another.
My first thought was shooting with winter mittens but the thumb is usually too bulky to fit in that slot.
@@444mopar If any snow got into the trigger area too it would be very difficult to clear it. Thinking of Finnish Brutality here; this system would be a non-starter and definitely no military application.
If that's a forged lower or the guards are a separate piece, I'd recommend that Iron Horse make the trigger guard round like a chunk of pipe instead of flat. Actually, hell, this is the modern world, I'm going to make that suggestion now!
I used to have the "Pilot's Notes" for a Spitfire with both cannon and machine-guns and the Merlin-engined variant of the Beaufighter. I think the way round that it worked was that the thumb-button fired the machine-guns and the index-finger trigger fired the cannon. Making it more or less automatic to fire both in moments of great stress.
I think you could make it work better than on the one tested, but as Ian says there's no great need to, unless there's something wrong with your index finger. If you're my age and you've done as much typing as I have, arthritis might give you a very good reason to want one of these!
But also there is no disadvange so why not?
@@GreenBlueWalkthrough Cost. The real reason why most things cool and different fail commercially. Standard trigger is far cheaper than this and as added bonus you can use your preferred pistol grip with them.
@@GreenBlueWalkthrough Well, I would like to see it developed to its potential and this is the first attempt I've seen at getting thumb trigger ergonomics right on a pistol-grip, so I expect it could be improved. I also think I'd have given it more than 18 rounds before I drew any conclusions, especially if I'd fired as many "normal" guns as Ian has. There might be a learned reflex that has to be unlearned. I can totally see that people with arthritis (or RSI from typing) might be better off with a thumb trigger. But to sell enough to ensure it's available to people who actually NEED it, you have to sell lots of copies to people who don't really need it. The Vincent White Lightning was designed to be easy for amputee war veterans to ride, but to sell enough copies to keep Vincent in business they also made it, and the Black Lightning, just about the fastest bikes on the road. So, at the moment it's not quite there, but I am not sure that's it's a long way away either. I would suggest subtle mods to the very detailed ergonomics of the thumb trigger to see if that gave it a clearer advantage.
I'd be interested in a comparison again after a few hundred rounds. Learning a traditional trigger takes time and experience, and I would imagine this would take some experience to get the most out of it too.
I appreciate this for cold weather ease of use. My index finger gets cold and locks up quite easily, so a thumb trigger may actually be a great idea for me for a hunting rifle. Always going to prefer finger for target shooting though, no way is a thumb trigger going to be as satisfying to pull as a finger trigger
Never heard of thumb triggers. This was interesting.
I thought so too, but if you think about it then the maxim gun and most variations also had one.
Browning M2, mounted miniguns... generally heavy machine guns use thumb triggers.
@@kamikazekalamari
He uses it beause it can been used for right and lefthanders.
The Thumb is more Powerfull then a indexfinger,so you can
hold the Gun better.If you have a Maxim you dont hold the complete
Gun and you use both hands or Thumbs.Sometimes when i sprayed my
Rims with Cleaner from a Spraybottle, my Indexfinger had a Pain like
i am using an MG3 back in my Armytimes,but there i shot belts of 250
Shells.Armyweapons had always a hard Trigger because no shot should be accidentally released.
Theres a FW video from a few years back on an old school thumb trigger target rifle. Cant remember the name tho
Found out. Its titled - Winchester thumb trigger rifle
i see a lot of scepticism. but i really like it, especially the safety. ergonomics could be improved. it also unlocks more space to add new features.
I think if they made the grip a bit more ergonomic I would be interested in one. Seems to be a good concept they have going.
I think that you have to take into account that pretty much every weapon that Ian has bought and has experience training with probably had a traditional trigger system, without alot of practice with the thumb trigger he was able to produce results that were almost the same as with the regular trigger. I think his results would be alot better with more practice with the thumb trigger system.
So, basically, the thumb trigger system is the Dvorak keyboard of the gun world.
Maybe giving an edge if you only ever trained on it, kinda pointless if you have to switch all of the training and muscle memory from using the classic setup.
Imagine having a completely different trigger style for every type of gun (like the Dvorak layout is different for each language)
I would love to try this out, to me Iron horse's "Hook" about the movement makes total sense, I feel like if you put a complete novice behind each there may be some benefit to the thumb trigger. I think It would also come down to practice for the average firearm owner just getting more comfortable with something new. I think the fact that you had such similar results having put a total of 18 rounds through it as you did with a higher-end normal trigger that you have a lifetime more experience with kind of points to its merit. Learning and getting as comfortable with the Thumb Trigger as you are the trigger you handpicked for the WWSD might lead to even better results.
This thumb trigger seems far more inherently safe than any traditional style trigger.
To me it seems that the thumb trigger would be harder to "keep your finger off of the trigger until ready to fire". Straight up and the buffer tube/stock gets in the way. To the side and a grip shift may be necessary.
BTW I have *YUGE* hands with long monkey fingers.
@@nucleargrizzly1776 I think the response to that would be "do not assume a firing grip until ready to fire"
@@TheFanatical1 I think it will be hard switching between a normal grip with the thumb encircling the handle, and a ready-to-shoot grip, since it requires bending and shifting your hand posintion, especially for those with stiff and long thumbs. Cutting out a slit in one side of the trigger box could be helpful, but it would also somewhat reduce safety. It also won't be ambidextrous anymore.
"Is gun! Cannot be made safe!"
The thumb has to be intentionally flexed 90 degrees to activate the trigger. Look at where your thumb points while relaxed. That's a lot of movement before anything happens. On top of that it takes a fair amount of pressure to trip. The trigger has to be intentionally pressed. It's nothing like having a finger curled inside a trigger guard as it's an entirely different motor skill and can't really even be compared. It's hard to understand until you've actually tried it. It's like trying to explain recoil to someone who's never held a handgun.
Ian can certainly speak to being handicapped! As a matter of fact this video highlighted his crippling disease of being left handed 😔 Praying for you champ! You can overcome this! 💪
South paws , like this trigger , do have their uses , not every corner is a left turn so it's handy to have someone who can shoot with their dominant side the rest of the time.
It's the silver lining on an otherwise sinister cloud .
@@mineown1861 I see what you did there. :)
Lefties are the only people in their right minds.
@@1pcfred these lefty puns are getting out of hand , good one though.
@@mineown1861 it is not really a pun. It is an established scientific fact. The left hemisphere of the brain controls the right side of the body and vice versa. Although why we're cross wired like that I've no good idea.
The group with the normal trigger is consistently low after that first one; whereas the normal trigger group is more of a steep climb.
I would say that the biggest issue with the grouping is the stock on the thumb trigger and not the thumb trigger itself. Your shoulder alignment is visibly different with the stock on your normal trigger.
Great vid & keep up the good work my fellow desert-dweller.
Thumb triggers were of course very popular in early machineguns. I could see the potential benefit in cold weather, but that particular trigger guard setup looks way too tight for winter gloves.
Being from Texas, I didn't even think about that.
Yeah theres much better solutions for gloves and mittens. Russia, Finland and Canada all have produced reliable and well tested options for their respective firearms (which happen to fit the most common rifle patterns, AR-15s, AKs, and the weird combinations inbetween)
@@JnixMarshel I am from Texas and it was the first thing I thought of.
A trip to the range in Yakina Firing Center in January wearing heavy gloves.
It was difficult to shoot well.
I had to open the trigger guard on the M16A1.
Still popular for HMGs and ordnance.
I have an Iron Horse lower. A grip with an expanded thumb guard would be simple to design and manufacture and there's nothing to either side of the trigger preventing the modified design. Since Iron Horse will read all these comments I'd watch for one to be offered down the road.
My math teacher cut his index fingers off to avoid the Vietnam draft can’t doge now
This makes me want to see a history of the trigger, and why the trigger we know became overall more popular.
Im guessing it was because the matchlock just had a lever attached to the match that would pivot in the stock which you would pull down and back under the stock to fire. And the when flintlocks were created they copied the user procedure out of habit.
I cannot see any other way of cheaply producing a matchlock and everything else has been based upon that ever since.
Isn't it the continuation of the crossbow trigger? Early firearms after the "put a smoking bit to the hole in the end of the firearm" used the crossbow trigger (the big pull with 4 fingers kind) later, as the pull became lighter it didn't need the horizontal part anymore as one finger was enough. I know there were some thumb operated crossbows as well, but maybe the mechanism was harder to manufacture/implement and later it worked well enough to not think about it. Would need to look at firearms whiteout handgrip but with thumb trigger, and try them to know if they are more comfortable or not.
The first triggers were from crossbows, which required a lot of force to release so they were designed to be pulled by all 4 fingers like a caulk gun. Later the early firearms just evolved from that and eventually became the modern trigger. In addition, the earliest firearms after hand cannons (which had no firing mechanism, and they just shoved a lit rope into a hole) were hammer fired, and it can be difficult to design a firearm that has you cocking the hammer and firing with the same finger from a usability standpoint as it ends up with two controls at the same general region.
I suspect that matchlocks largely set the pattern for small arms to come. The simplest matchlocks use a fuse holder that you pull back to put the fuse to the touchhole. I suspect that wheellocks used a backwards pulling trigger for continuity which undoubtedly led to the flintlock trigger. If history had been a bit different, thumb triggers might be the norm and index finger triggers the oddity.
@@rultkiraly43 I admit that I hadn't thought about crossbow triggers simply because matchlocks do not use them. The similarities between a crossbow trigger and a wheellock or flintlock trigger are unmistakable.
I have one of these and found that I can shoot it extremely fast. I suspect that’s due to the fact that the gun recoils in the direction of the trigger press so you can get a bump fire effect only with a lot more control because the gun is fully stabilized between the shoulder and support hand. Now that I’ve had about a year of practice I’ve switched it to my go-to home defense AR.
I appreciate that they stand behind their product like that. They clearly believe in it. Good stuff as always.
It's good to see the company wanted a honest review. I agree with Ian on this assessment. It comes down to personal preference or to accommodate personal needs due to injury or other issues. The fact this can take any AR upper is nice. Wouldn't mind seeing this in handgun form to be honest I think a handgun form may attract more market for home defense etc for people who may have a need for a thumb trigger. Iron horse has a good product and know what they are doing. Great work iron horse!
I notice that the ball of my palm flexes a lot when moving my thumb vs my index. I wonder if a void where that is and a fuller grip toward the bottom would further reduce pull displacement. Always interesting and good to see variety in tech.
very good point, i'm actually quite interested in this concept now, if only for the novelty
I've noticed on dry fire with laser dot my index finger allows the dot to jump right when trigger breaks, when I place index just below the slide and use my middle finger my grip flexes less and dot moves much less.. I'm 67 years old and hard work over time has done it's damage
@@jackspringer9283 When using "proper" trigger technique it shouldn't. Most people don't though. I've watched Ian many times and cringed at his trigger technique. Which is not to say that I'm perfect at it, but I can recognize it when I see it. I will say that my groups tighten up when I'm focused on proper trigger technique. (Not to even mention breath control and proper grip.)
Good observation!
As a proof of concept, that's actually pretty good.
If the fit and finish of the TCG was on par with some of the nicer after market triggers and someone spent the time to protype more ergonomic grips, this would definitely have a niche.
BOO to Ian he did almost equally well with his first 18 thumb trigger shots, than over 1800 practice shots before hand with a standard trigger. Seemed he had a grudge against it.
I can say from owning an iron horse yes it is different at first. As a precision gun in a 6 arc is outstanding. Great for prone hunting
Adding a thumb trigger to an AR is an intresting concept
I feel like a more extreme angle on the grip would be nice. Put your hand in a higher position.
Might be good for people with hand injuries.
Edit: aaaaannnd Ian brings it up.
As to the cold weather thing, thumb trigger works with mittens. Mittens are better than gloves at keeping all of your fingies un-frostbitten.
Overall I think the market is big enough for there to exist products like this, and I'm glad the boys over at Iron Horse insisted on Ian reviewing it.
I remember seeing these rifles on the walls of my local gun store here in Utah about a year or two ago and I was absolutely baffled and confused.
I would love to see you take this to a competition, just to see.
That thing is CLEARLY made to get around California's "assault weapon" ban. If I recall one of the features that make a rifle with a detachable magazine a banned weapon is a pistol grip that places the trigger below the web of the hand. That easily places the trigger above the web of the hand when holding the pistol grip. Excellent idea marketing it for "disabled" persons or accuracy enhancing rather than a CA end around...
Unfortunately it’s exactly the opposite. CA’s definition of a pistol grip is one that places the trigger ABOVE the web of the hand. Hence why there are companies making lowers with blocking bars that obscure part of the trigger so that the top of the trigger is not above the web of the hand. That said, another part of the definition of a pistol grip is a grip which can be fully encircled by the hand, hence the finned grips sold in CA, and this design could probably incorporate a protrusion on the lower third or so of the grip that would “prevent full encirclement” without actually impacting ability to control the rifle and make it not a pistol grip under CA’s definition.
@@rhvette Color me wrong, I misunderstood all their gobbldygook...
@@BBossman1 that's deliberate on their part.
I think more extensive field testing is needed to ascertain the potential benefits or drawbacks of a thumb trigger. It could be more comfortable to shoot for long periods or it might not.
I personally don't like how you have to hold the grip so low. It seem like the shooter would have less control, especially if it's full auto or even just rapid fire semi-auto. I could definitely be wrong about that though. 🤷♂️
Probably, your thumb is much stronger than your index finger, making it much more suitable for extended operation
As someone who used to live in California I have to wonder if this would be legal there and possibly allow one to get around some of the laws. Also I'd like to see a video on the Bushnell Holosight and how it later became the EoTech.
Saw the thumbnail and immediately thought, thats some New california conpliant crazyness.
However I dont think its applicable.
Ob the other Hand I can imagine that this is hardly a pistol grip legally
I’m thinking it might if you use the fin with it because I believe the law states that you can’t wrap you hand around the grip
@@KRoberts1299 but then you could also keep a normal trigger.
@@KRoberts1299 it's not that you cant wrap your hand around the grip, what matters is where the webbing of your hand is in relation to the exposed portion of the trigger. Being in California, I would imagine that this would be good to go.
@@RickyRicardoRuiz without a doubt the webbing of the hand is well below the trigger and trigger mechanism but Iron Horse needs to get the ok and start selling now considering the other rifles on the horizon attempting to do the same thing its only a matter of time before gov Gavin Newsom changes the "laws" yet again to circumvent our circumventions.
Speaking of Henry, what are the odds of getting that lower to 9-hole reviews? I'd also be interested for Josh's point of view about shooting it fast and standing.
It looks like with a thumb trigger you dipp instead of go side to side. Most shooters are used to compensate for side movement, so I think with some training a thumb trigger will start to be useful. After all, that's a pretty good group with all of 18 rounds worth of practice.
The first question that I had after seeing the trigger placement was, "Is there enough room between the sidewalls for a thumb in a heavy winter glove and liner?" It looked like there wasn't all that much space around Ian's thumb without a glove.
An engineer could easily flare out the walls to allow for a mittened thumb to fit in just fine.
@@c3bhm He may not actually own any given the local climate. Visits to colder locations could just come with borrowed gloves.
To me it looked like it had a better chance of fitting artic gloves then most AR-15s.
@@johngaltman writes "An engineer could easily..."
As someone who works in Engineering I think the word you are looking for is "Machinist".
What an engineer will tell you (and maybe sign off on) is how much you can remove without causing the walls to fail in 'normal' handling.
No disrespect intended, just they are different skill sets.
Also, what Larry said.
I was musing the same thing.
Well, if the Klingons can do it, why not Iron Horse?
On a more serious note though, this looks like a great idea for custom parts kits, but I can't see it making a significant impact on the market for off-the-rack firearms.
Also, now I _really_ want to see more historical examples of thumb trigger guns.
The one that I tried has a gritty and heavy trigger pull. Similar to a misspec trigger
My expectation would be that it has a fairly stiff letoff since no shooters would be familiar with it.
Could be "normal" variation on the production line. Or Iron Horse made damn sure everything on this rifle was in optimum condition. Very likely, but not guaranteed. I've seen Ian shoot a couple of guns sent to him by the manufacturer that had stupid problems that could have been checked out before sending. Made a Comment on this and Ian responded, saying yes, it was true, that happens, illogical as it may seem.
Idk how competent Iron Horse is at making most of their trigger mechanisms good ones, but at least they're competent enough to send a good one to Ian.
But Ian, according to Star Trek thumb triggers are standard on all Federation phasers and Klingon disruptors. Surely, Star Trek can't be wrong.
"I don't see thumb triggers taking off." Ian are forgetting about how most machine guns use thumb triggers? Also it could be like buckling spring keyboards/laser over rubber dome Cerry switchs more choice is never bad I love my Laser cerris but the Bucking is more confoble... I don't see any dis avantage to use thumb triggers and if you want the machine gun expernce why not? Like why would it be more niche then a plasitic lower and carbon fiber?
I can speak from experience. I once lost sensation in my trigger finger while elk hunting at 42ﾟ below 0. I was unable to feel the trigger on my Winchester model 70. After 2 premature shots I had to aim at the animal and then put my finger into the trigger guard to fire. I think the thumb figure would have been better in that instance.
@Lassi Kinnunen 81 I was wearing light gloves, but to no avail....
Oh this one was worth watching through to the end. I never knew there were thumb triggered weapons, nor have I ever thought about it. This was unique and I would love to try one out myself some day.
You've never seen a Machine gun before?
honestly i can see this getting sales in california since i am sure this can be considered a Featureless Rifle, so to speak.
What is a featureless rifle?
@@drdoom-skull2244 the Democratic People's Republic of Kalifornia has a whole list of features that make a rifle an evil assault weapon.
If it doesn't have enough of those features, it's not an assault weapon and is legal for sale. It's why you see those horrible fin grips and such.
I'm not sure this would count as a featureless rifle. But it'd be worth a try, especially since Iron Horse could make a good case for it being ADA protected.
@@ScottKenny1978 that's funny af cuz those fin grips dont prevent you from doing anything you could with a regular pistol grip. It almost feels like laws are stupid enough to not to prevent people from buying military grade weapons while keeping the anti gun people silent since most dont know jack shit about weapons
@@TreacherousFennec except wrap your thumb around the grip.
Yes, the laws are *beyond* stupid, but they're also up for Supreme Court review right now. 😈
At the _very_ least, the SCOTUS is going to say, "you need to read the text of the Amendment, as informed by history and tradition; and if that gives you an answer, that is as far as you go."
For cold weather (i.e. gloves), the whole apparatus looks too small. But the whole idea is very neat overall, very cool idea
Whether it's ultimately good or bad, I have a huge amount of respect for people willing to try weird, relatively "new" ideas, like a modern thumb-trigger AR-15.
Combine a thumb trigger with the hammer of a single action pistol/revolver and you get a new idea of what they call 'quick draw'.
A.K.A. "The Baldwin"
Interesting stuff. Thanks for giving it a practical demonstration, Ian. I think that Iron Horse should really be pushing this as an option for people with disabilities - there's potentially a significant untapped market there, and it could really play an important part in opening up shooting sports for a lot of people that otherwise might feel excluded. Budi - recurring guest on Bloke on the Range - is a great ambassador, and it would be great to get some more people with disabilities some visibility. Maybe you (or Karl, perhaps - it might be a better fit for InRange) could try and find someone willing to try it out?
It would be perfect for ground keeper Willie. He has a crippling arthritis in his index fingers. He got it from space invaders in 1977
Oh yeah, that was a great video game.
@@Scott-qq9jd video game?
If it weren't for the fact that hot brass kept hitting him in the face it would be easily interchangeable from a left to right handed person as well. The gun still functions of course, but it is rather interesting to think of potential design improvements.
It's weird to me that the safety is not actuated with the thumb. Especially if loss of pointer finger dexterity is a reason to use a thumb trigger.
I think this is great for my fellow disabled Vets who are missing fingers or parts of them, although #nubgunner does just fine without them lol and a lot better than most without any physical issues!