UK Special Forces' M16 Variant: the L119A1
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UPDATE: One correction to make; this rifle has the A2 charging handle. The original A1 version was essentially identical to the standard conventional charging handle. Sorry!
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In 1999, the UK Ministry of Defense put out a tender for a new rifle for UK Special Forces (UKSOF). The elite units of the British military were definitely not going to be using the L85! There was some competition (including the SIG 550 series), but it was pretty much known going in that the contract would be going to Diemaco (later Colt Canada) for a version of their C8 SFW ("Special Forces Weapon"). That was the case, but only after very extensive trials, which actually cost more than the procurement contract itself. The rifles were tested in all environmental extremes, including Alaska, Kuwait, and Brunei.
The rifle ultimately adopted had a number of unique features. It was at heart a Diemaco C8, with Diemaco's early flat top upper (which predates Picatinny adoption, and is actually a bit closer to Weaver - but still compatible with modern accessories). Two barrel lengths were purchased, 10.0 inch and 15.7 inch. Other details include:
Stepped buffer tube
Textured telescoping stock
Permanently attached rubber buttplate
Lone Star grip
Knight's RAS with locking clamps on both top and bottom rails
Strengthened gas block (usually but not always)
SureFire 216-A flash hider
Unique castle nut details
Ambidextrous charging handle
The barrel profile chosen for the L119A1 is quite heavy, and the 10 inch barreled version is substantially overgassed. The guns were heavy, but very reliable, and have since been adopted as the standard service rifle of the Royal Marines. The SOF opted to seek out a replacement around 2013-2016, and that would result in the L119A2 (a significantly different rifle).
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"They spent more on testing than on actually purchasing." That might have saved them a lot of headaches with the L85.
Hey guys you want these L85s? Nah Bru we good with our mini 14s
They tested the SA80 to within an inch of its life.
They knew that it was shit but they adopted it anyway due to politics.
Nobody wanted the SA80, it was a political decision. I actually know an officer who eventually resigned over it as he was involved in the testing and stated clearly it wasn't suitable.
@@PieAndChips this guy knows. We're quite lucky to have got away with it as well. Not sure retaking the Falklands would have panned out the same with that Fisher Price piece of wank.
Problem was Enfield didn’t have a lot of time, they had to produce a rifle based on the sterling AR pattern in the shortest time possible, a decision atypical of British arms manufacture. This was due to the US Army/US Government ignoring the EM-2 /.280 British trials data and pushing through the 7.62 round which as we all know was eventually replaced due to that full auto debacle. Subsequently, the British who had designed an incredibly advanced weapon in the EM-2 had to come up with a replacement design and fast.
A few years ago when Colt Canada released some C8 pattern rifles made for the civilian market in Canada, a company rep made some posts on a popular forum here explaining some of the development process for the C8, including how the barrel length was selected. Evidently Diemaco had made multiple test barrels of various lengths, each custom cold hammer forged, and ultimately chose the 400mm (15.7") length because it was at a harmonic node for the SS109 cartridge, leading to better accuracy.
I believe the SS109 ammo is m855 green tip and if that's the case then throw it all out!! Green Tip sucks when you are fighting people who arent behind cover, in a lightly armored vehicle or do not have body armor on... the m855 green tip can be decent if you are shooting at people who have some sort of cover or armor but even then there are many better choices. If you know you opponents have body armor then it would be a good idea to maybe have a few mags of m855 or something better but honestly some sort of two part hollow tip like the black hills and war mage bullets would actually be better. Thanks for the information on the Canadian perspective! I figured I would give my rant on how shitty m855 is 🤣
Very cool info. Thanks for the education!
Nuhuh
If you can hit the target pretty much anything will kill. Even a .22
And now Trudeau and his goonies made AR15s prohibited...
Honestly 90% of my gun knowledge comes from you guys, thank you for teaching me about guns and getting me into them.
If you watch every video you’ve probably got not only more gun knowledge than 90% of people but a pretty good understanding of world history too.
@@Matt-xc6sp Well to be fair, I already knew a lot about world history, which is the entire reason that I got into this channel. It has taught me a lot though.
In school we were taught a lot of history about this king and that president, it was boring af. But history from the perspective of firearms is interesting.
You're getting accurate information, minus the BS myths that have been circulating around for years.
Have you checked out C&Rsenal yet? Goes well as a companion piece.
the finger groove; its there for when you are operating in the cold and snow. Trust me, when you pick your rifle up out of a snow bank with thick gloves you will begin to think the guy who came up with that finger grove was a damn genius. Same thing with that rubber grip. Stays pliable even in Saskatchewan and Yellowknife.
The US army still uses that grip profile. The shaved off finger grooves were probably born on a 3-gun range.
That answers half of my question. The other half is, "Why do some people look down on the finger groove?"
@@grimlock1471 it has to be big to accommodate winter gloves. Then without winter gloves, it separates your middle and ring finger and forces the whole grip down somewhat.
I'm more surprised that they used the original AR15 grip angle. Especially today. Few people shoot their rifles in the old school bladed position now, and in the new school frontal position that grip angle breaks your wrist too much.
@@AlexN2022 So is the modern preference for a straighter grip?
It is surprising that Ian did not mention that UKSF had used Canadian AR15 since the 1990s even before L119A1
USS -Essex
I think it was a poster named Adam previously hit on they were using the AR15 pattern since the early 60's , but yeah surprised Ian did not point that out. I inly know it from reading some of Barry Davies books myself lol
@@scotsduck9947 Yeah. UKSF was actually one of the early adopters of AR15.
Yep, pretty much since the thing was available. I read somewhere that SAS and similar units have been using AR15-type rifles since before the US Army (mostly bought off Colt before the Diemaco was available), and about as long as the USAF. Certainly heavily used by SF in the Falklands. I think it was near-standard for Royal Marines before they were forced onto the L85A2 about 10-15 years ago, along with things like the HK53. Very prevalent in the RM MAAW cadre.
I'm also I sure I read somewhere that the UKSF (circa Malya incident) where surprised by the reports of the the AR15/M16 stoppages in Vietnam, as they had very few issues. But then I don't suppose someone told them that the guns don't need cleaned right before switching the propellant in the ammunition they used.
They were using the Dimarco C6 (the Canadian answer to the m16a2) since the mid to late 80's
When I was deployed during OIF with the 82nd 1st/504th we worked with the SAS on two occasions. They were a solid group of shooters who were both humble and extremely helpful. I have immense respect for them, in my eyes in our specific AO at the time they were indeed the apex predators of the battlefield.
For me, I'd say the south African contractors that kept Ana and anp guards on the up and up were for sure the apex predators... they didn't really have permission from the SA government to be there, and with that, had no real level of accountability for whether or not they followed our roe or not. They were solid dudes though, not blood thirsty maniacs.
@@TheCrusher72 True, there’s a couple of reasons for that.
First; the most recent patterns of UKAF mags are about the most reliable stanag mags out there, with only Colt US being a contender for quality….(The older ones Brit issues were utter sh**e). Second, the previous magpul was a little looser within the L85 well. Not enough to cause harm but something to keep in mind and feels a little…..urgh. Newer magpuls provided are much better but still in slow rollout. I preferred Colt or Stanag personally.
Now being used by Royal Marines, SFSG, RMP and 148 battery 29 commando
@WITHOUT. 6.1M views so?
Its most likely only 43 cdo and 539 asrm getting l119s because of their special role
@WITHOUT. 6.1M views lots of uk people look indian, there are good reasons
@@joeboom0697 42 commando and 30 commando have them too. Seen images of members of 40 commando with some
@@louissanderson719 ah right sorry mate.
One of the reasons the SAS procured their M-16 variants from Diemaco/Colt Canada, is because, as a small company, they were extremely open to small, almost custom orders. They were happy to built one thousand guns, were Colt USA only wanted major orders.
Also the UK Government had a rule that they won't deal with a company that was bankrupt in the last 10 years!
Also, it's somewhat forgotten today, but back then, there wasn't the plethora of AR type rifle manufacturers that exist now. So if you wanted custom style orders, your options were limited.
Chris Bartocci did a video on this on his Small Arms Solutions channel. He's a great font of info on the AR family of rifles as well as the weirdness and insanity of military procurement.
Heavier barrel, the M4 has a weaker lighter barrel that did not meet continuous firing……
I guess it was also a plus to procure weapons from another country in the Commonwealth: They are on Her Majesty's Service, after all.
As an ex armourer from REME. I would just like to commend you on your amazing Channel. Really appreciate your hard work and commitment to an often misunderstood or appreciation of firearms engineering historical importance.
And he doesn’t even ask for a yellow handbag…
Thanks!
Says, "they spent more money on testing than they did on purchasing. Which is smart."
2 minutes later, "This charging handle is really stupid as you scrape your fingers. It gets caught in webbing and can open unexpectedly. Here's one a soldier has sawed off." I give you British Government Bureaucracy.... gasp at the greatness.
I’d love to know why they went with that sling attachment. Obviously this was before QDs and people putting the forward point further towards the muzzle, but still.
We use the same charging handle on our C7A2 and no one likes them as it's very easy for it to get caught on your kit and pretty much everything. There's a newer version that's has a cut down hook that's being rolled out through the CAF.
Considering how the US government got from Stoner's original design to the M16A1 and A2, I'd say they were just following the path that had been blazed for them.
Remember: they gave as a reason for adopting the Gen 4 Glock that it had interchangeable grip backstraps...then refused to issue the backstraps to troops, instead have them in storage somewhere 🤷♂️
@@2Skinny I worked as an IT contractor for the UK Gov about 16 years ago, on software for the Probation and Prison Service. The Gov. had designed and built it, in such a way that, if an offender was moved from one of the 30 UK counties to another, and their records didn't reach the prison with them - they made another record. Then, the original record would arrive, and there would appear to be 2 offenders, not just one. After a couple of years of this - and internal bureaucracy mixed with malignant narcissism at the top - there was a huge story in all newspapers, and on the BBC - about how overcrowded all the prisons were. While some definitively were, the Prison service and government had no idea - at all - just how many people were in prison, due to the software they had designed and built. In some cases I know about - one prisoner might appear as up to nine people in the official statistics. We can't sack these people. The life-long civil servant.... never worked in the real world, ever.
@16:35 perfectly well balanced assessment of SAS performance up until circa 1990. Made me laugh.
What a beautiful rifle. That Knight's rail system, the classic style stock, this will always be the best era/aesthetic of the M16/M4 platform to my eyes.
I’m surprised that forgotten weapons hasn’t shown off the HK MP5 40/10mm out of everything
Hell it's probably because he can't find one. Those FBI guns are difficult to get hands on.
@@JunkyardBashSteve Met a guy at a show that was selling 3 of them as parts kits. You can find those things at the weirdest places
@@asparaguswater8016 Did you ask if he was an FBI or ATF agent? Those are damn rare and I'd be very, very suspicious of anyone offering parts kits.
@@tenchraven It was an older guy that had bought half a dozen of them at an FBI surplus auction. They were all cut up properly and didn't have the serialized receiver flat so didn't have to go through an FFL. A friend bought it and we took it back to his place and found out that the trigger pack he sold was the 2-pin Navy triggerpack. That's when I messed with the trigger to feel the weight and found out those selector markings were just for cosmetics. So it was the real thing.
@@JunkyardBashSteve If he can find an HK G11 he can find an MP5 40/10mm.
those lonestar grips were super popular in the paintball world for a time - usually with the trap door removed so you could fit a bottomline tank connector
I'm from Ontario but I was doing some work in Montreal and I was in the hotel elevator, wearing my Forgotten weapons beater and a few other guys who got on noticed and we talked about the channel and nerded about guns for few minutes. This was weird because big cities in Eastern Canada have almost no gun culture to speak of in my experience. I saw them later in the week and asked them what they were doing in Montreal. They were from Colt Canada, and they were meeting with some government officials. That explains it, lol.
@kevin pierson man, not to get too political but our conservatives are so watered down they are nearly indistinguishable. They do not represent a true conservative mindset.
Sadly, that kid with the lawn dart ruined it for everybody….
thats awesome hope you enjoyed your time in Montreal (ik this is a year late but ehh)
@@sulla175 They are Conservative, just not to the overly extreme extent that American conservatives are. Western European countries and Oceania are far more in line with Canada than the US.
@@toade1583wouldn’t consider it over extreme I think we just know what happens when they(the government) take one small thing at a time, then you turn into Europe and Canada who have awful gun laws for law abiding citizens
Interesting story I was told in 2001 by someone who was around during that period. Originally when the regiment went to Colt US, they wanted it chambered in UK spec 5.56mm along with other mods and Colt said no, go to Canada. So, once that trial and order was complete, the Regiment went back to Colt USA to order and have fitted a load of M203's to part of the order. Colt US refused, saying that with the modifications, they saw it as out of license and would not supply/fit the M203's. So, the UK went to HK Germany and opted for the AG36 instead. Think that's the meat of it, has been 20 years, so my memory may be a bit muddy on some of it.
I may have heard of that with smallarmssolutions. With his work with colt.
Here's his video on the Diemaco C7
th-cam.com/video/pAwYN4nk-Cw/w-d-xo.html
Believe the main reason for AG36 was because the mechanism opened to the side, which allowed longer rounds to be used rather than 203.
Small Arms Solutions may have already mentioned it, but Colt USA was already in full swing and at full capacity with US military-spec M4 and M203 production pre-9/11. When the towers fell, the new orders put Colt USA in overdrive (24-hour shifts in the factory) and foreign orders for NATO countries had to be redirected to Colt Canada.
Oh, and Colt USA had to make the M16A4 for USMC and some other things, too. The commercial market definitely noticed and there was a lack of 6920s in gun shops for a long while (which, a small digression, paved the path for the AR boom for small companies like Daniel Defense and BCM right before the end of the Assault Weapons Ban in 2004).
Colt USA sure hates making money. Look up how they lost the contract for Korea's rifle
I always thought it was weird how UKSF would have their peqs on the lower hand guard and thought how the hell did it hold zero. Thanks to Ian my question has been answered #TheMoreYouKnow
God I hope there's an L119A2 video in the works, would love to see some details about that rifle
There is.
@@ForgottenWeapons My day is singlehandedly made
@@ForgottenWeapons Nice!!!
Awesome to get some cover on this awesome rifle!! Interestingly the SFW were sold to the UK with the Diemaco DIS and there are images of SAS using the DIS carry handle on the weapons, also including MATCHE BUIS in very small numbers. ACOG TA01 were mainly used as mentioned, but also EOTECH 552 and in some cases Aimpoint COMP M2 as well
Muzzle device: the step down is to fit into the interior profile of the suppressor which are designed to work together.
And to use for Simon grenades on the 15.7" guns.
I'd heard that, but never got to look inside to see if it was true.
Exellent to see this couple of things missed no one's fault. Pre 2000 you were right on saying the hk G3 was a very popular choice (referred to by users as the barking dog) where extra stopping power was needed, but US colts were issued pre 2000. These weapons were originally issued with a carry handle that had a rear sight, it was nothing special, just the standard L configuration. Some guys mounted a red dot on the top fore end rail, and kept the carry handle, it was definitely effective, exellent in low light conditions, and providing the weapon was zero-ed on the iron sights, that could be used to reference your zero on the red dot should they take a beating. What was interesting was the rails were designed to be ever so slightly higher to accommodate this on the mounts of the day. If you tried this on the colt for example, the front sight was to high, and you couldn't get alignment. The break taper had 2 functions. 1- referencing your suppressor in near zero visibility or if you were using gloves in cold conditions (a tiny well thought out detail) and the 2nd, this was soon stumbled upon as being an exellent tool for pain compliance when dealing with panicked prisoners or hostages (quick jab to the squishy bits). The barrel length also has numerous reasons, it was the absolute minimum required to cycle subsonic loads without stoppage issues, with the stock collapsed it was much easier to stow on your person's during free fall insertion, or deploying from submarines where space on your person's is a big issue. The velocity of the round was reduced ever so slightly (few hundred fps) which when used with subsonic loads, helped limit over penatration issues if you were working in confinded spaces (aircraft, trains, busses etc etc) they actually did a lot of work on this trying to find a sweet spot. For a time P9s we're issued for black role, as 9mm lacked stopping power, 5.7 was smaller but a lot faster, but also much more frangible. It didn't really take off, it was eventually decided to use these, with subsonic loads and split the difference. The over all length of the weapon was also exellent in the CP role, easy to stash or use in a vehicle. In short they ticked all the boxes, pays to note however, that this was 1 of a series of options the short variant would be used for specific roles. End of the day it's about having the right tool for the job. Love the channel.
I know this vid is old now but I just wanted to comment and say thanks. As a Canadian I was interested to learn more about these rifles, and unfortunately info regarding them is a bit harder to find online compared to more ubiquitous modern rifles. This channel never fails to deliver when I really want to learn about a weapon!
PS: I certainly feel a bit of undeserved pride at the fact that it was the Canadians who designed the flat-top, just considering how it has since become the standard.
of the flat top, would you consider a history of mounting stuff onto guns, plug bayonets, weaver, picatinny, to M lok?
Ex Canadian Armed Forces weapons technician here,
Saying that this cocking handle latch sucks would be an understatement. It sticks out, gets caught everywhere, can get accidentally bent in all sorts of unique ways (sometimes bending the cocking handle body along with it) and it WILL eventually break its axis pin and fall off. The sling plate also sucks. Like Ian found out it gets in the way of your fingers while operating the cocking handle and many people have accidentally ripped off their finger nails on it. It also tends to get crushed and deformed since it is made out of soft metal, but it can easily be bent back into shape.
The CAF has adopted this type of latch and sling plate in the mid 2000's with the C7A2 upgrade. The cocking handle was the #1 thing we repaired/replaced the most on the rifles by far. Since then they have replaced that latch as well as the sling plate for different designs that addressed most of these issues.
Other than for these stupid accessories however, Colt Canada rifles are outstandingly well-made and durable. BTW the reason behind the texturing on the stock is that it makes if FAR more comfortable to get a proper cheek weld in extreme cold temperatures.
I heard they missed the sten and were upset that Colt Canada would not move the magazine well to the side of the gun.
This has to be true, I read it on the internet!
nice one :)
With my (admittedly limited) knowledge of SF operators, they would probably - if issued with stens - modify them to be quad-barreled, belt-fed, tripod mounted and using some totally obscure cartridge, just to fit a very specific purpose (shooting rats behind the (red) boathouse at Hereford).
Also, they wanted in .303 - totally reliable info.
This game a good chuckle, but not gonna lie, I do miss the side and top loading magazines of older designs. The Bren is an icon of a LMG, and I always like the look of a mag sticking out the side (as awkward as that may be for balance when loaded).
In my Navy SEAL unit we'd have mag pouches sewn onto the handguard to fit extra mags. We'd have four of them all occupying the 12, 3, 6 and 9 o' clock positions and it'd be essential for fighting Spetsnaz in the jungle.
Everyone's got to have the AR-15.
Kinda amazing how quickly that gun has become ubiquitous.
From what I understand, the pebbled finish on the stock came about during cold winter trials. In sub zero temps, soldiers faces would "stick" to the smooth check area. The pebbling increased surface area and reduced (eliminated?) this problem.
We had a few GAU 5's in our Armory back around 2008-09. They had several similarities including the Full-auto, the rail, hand grip, and shorter barrel. The GAU 5's had a fixed carry handle with a unique aimpoint red-dot. It was fun to shoot and waste ammo with. I was disappointed when we were forced to turn them in for disposal.
That style charging handle wasnt generally used on the A1. Was mainly brought in on the A2 variants.
The sling plate is not correct either. The sling loops were actually slightly further down the plate away from the charging lever, not side on like the one on this rifle. The correct one was also ambidextrous, as had a loop both sides.
As for rear sights, both the long (SFW) and short (CQB) variants all came issued with the original Diemaco D.I.S carry handle. But i know the 10" (cqb) variant had the MATECH BUIS sight issued in the field.
Other than that, cracking vid as always.
Nerding out in the morning with Mr Mac and learning about stuff what better way to start the day !
The SAS and SBS used Colt AR15 (601 and 602) from 1963 onwards. They were used by other units on an occasional basis, such as jungle use in Borneo, Belize or on reconnaissance missions etc. They were used till they fell apart. The SAS had replaced them with C8s in the late 80s, these were used by Paras and Marines in Afghanistan in 2001 as the L85A2 wasn’t fully up. They weren’t happy having to give them back when the L85A2 was issued, if you remember newspaper reports from the time. This annoyed the Warminster based HQ Infantry as they were really happy with the L85A2 (I remember my dad, Lt Col at Warminster, being so happy about the L85A2 and pissed off by the officers of the paras and marines who babbled to the Mail about wanting the C8)
They all hate the sa80. I remember in the early 90's South of England show the paras had a stand there with some guns and kit. I picked the sa80 a1 (I was about 8 yrs old), It was heavy and them I picked up an ar15...fck me was it light, unbelievable comparison. BTW I trained on the sa80 weapon system in the cadets (mid 90's), was in the Sussex County shooting team. The sa80 system was accurate but heavy and very ungainly in all forms.
Probably a culture thing, the infantry WO used to babble and comment when the SF guys exited the planes at BN before anyone else wearing beards and jeans carrying their weapons cases :)))
This needs to be top comment
The C8 (SFW, L119A1) didn't come in until 2000 as Ian says (trials in 1997-8). In the meantime M16A1 and several different M16A2 variants were procured to replace those 601s and 602s. Several non-SF units (Pathfinders, notably) also used M16A2 prior to 'trickle down' Diemaco. I don't remember the Paras and RM having Diemacos as early as 2001 but I can believe it.
@@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries holy smokes, hi there! Maybe you could show Ian some real L119s...
Ian, this was a really good one. I love these episodes that cover a lot of back story/ history.
Would love a video on the Canadian M-16 trials
TL;DR it's only serious competitor was the FNC. Won due to better long term durability and it's barrel wouldn't get bent from dropping it like the FNC did
Source: th-cam.com/video/J2kMECTwd14/w-d-xo.html
@@burnyburnoutze2nd thanks man!
I love your videos!! No politics! Just facts! I also think the way you can make something that other presenters would dismiss or brush over quickly so interesting and intriguing brilliant. I look forward to every single video
Great video. I have to add that UKSF did have AR15 type weapons before the L119. There are plenty of images of them with M16s and CAR15s in the 1991 gulf war and the Falklands war in 82.
IIRC, the Brits used original AR-15s in Borneo before the U.S. had even adopted it as the M16 in the early '60s.
An export version of the M16A2 was the standard UKSF weapon for a couple of decades before the L119 was adopted. Before that (you mentioned the Falklands) they were using a mix of SLR's (L1A1's) and really old AR15's. By the time the Gulf War came along their version of the M16A2 had been standard issue for several years and all the L1A1's were long gone.
I had a good giggle when you called the C7, "The M16A2 without all the stupid stuff". I have described it the exact same way.
Ian, you’re telling me that it was the Canadians who pioneered iconic American flat top M4?! Fun fact: First time flat tops were featured in a major movie was Air Force One.
Not to steal Canada's thunder but... In the episode where Vickers talks about his carbine, he confirmed that troops had been customizing and making their rifles flat tops practically since the A1s in Nam.
@Shutbyotch Go watch the video
@Shutbyotch Forgotten Weapons - Larry Vickers' Colt 723
@@ledzeppelin27 but this is also a properly forged and machined flat top
@@Courtesyflush52 Idea had to come from somewhere 🤷♂️
Thanks
Hi Ian, when I retired from the Corps in 97, a friend of mine enticed me into "300 blackout", and I began considering it. I built a few with a gas piston setup, as I hate gas impingement, as only a Jarhead can, and ended up with about a 12 mm piston, and was able to get them to run reliably, with any load, no adjustments, which had been a problem with my friend's first, gas rifle effort.
I've built a number of them, including a couple with an annular piston, as per the VZ 52, and it was the single most effective and reliable means. I fired my first M-16 in 76, not even an A-1, never had a good rifle until the A-2, and it was always over gassed, and a pig. I've got half a dozen AR's in 300, and they all stay clean, and reliable. It's been twenty five years since I retired, and we still use the same rifle. I've never quite understood the fascination with direct gas impingement. I use "80-20" aluminum tube for the upper, and a standard lower, or one milled from solid, with a form similar to the AR-18. I sorta expected the "special forces" to all end up with the larger round. Semper Fidelis, John McClain
EXCELLENT VIDEO-ANALYSIS on the INCREDIBLE STORY of this BEAUTIFUL British Assault Rifle, The L119A1✨✨✨✨✨✨✨🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧✨✨✨✨✨✨✨
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Excellent content as always and the closest I'll get to one of these except and airsoft replica lol.
I'm now waiting for the part on the L119A2, and I'm sure that Ian knows someone *cough* Jonathan *cough* , who could set him up with a couple of authentic ones to shoot 🤔 ...
There's not enough L119A2 content out there. It's a cool piece and should really be in every video game and movie the SAS appear in a modern-day context.
Is there a even good airsoft replica?
@@williamflowers9435 you have to build it yourself and its a pain in the ass. Some of the parts aren't really made anymore so you have to scour for used bits. Took me a long time to build a c7 and I had to get the lower custom engraved.
@@williamflowers9435
Yeah as Steven has said you can build it yourself with aftermarket parts and a doner airsoft gun. Couple of airsoft publications put all the bits needed in one of there issues recently.
@@williamflowers9435 yeah you can buy completely build one.. join the fb page
Ian you were ONE of only person that made school bearable no joke man
These days the L119A1 is what UK forces get if they think they're too Special for the L85 -- SFSG, Marines, RMP CP, Pathfinders etc. If you're actually Special you get a L119A2. And if you're doing very Special stuff you strap a UCIW onto your chest rig, hoik up your jeans and go try really hard not to get photographed.
L85 sucks. Also who designs a bullpup rifle that that is right hand only?
@@Gruvy L85A2 and A3 works fine. Even Ian admits that. It's accurate and reliable and has a lot more modularity than it used to. It maybe wasn't the best choice with nearly 40 years of hindsight, but what is? It's gradually getting phased out of roles where there's a significant perceived advantage to something else, e.g. the C8 and the Sharpshooter. It will solider on probably for another decade or so until a decision is made about whether to stick with 5.56 or switch to something else.
Right-hand-only has long been a problem with bullpups. It's a simple matter of design compromises, which has only really been got close to solved in the past decade or so. Originally there were going to be left-hand-only SA80 bodies (roughly 10% I guess) but that was nixed early on for cost cutting. Most of the time it's not an issue -- most British recruits have limited shooting experience so it's not difficult to teach them right-hand-only from the beginning. Also, of those recruits who are experienced with rifle shooting, far less than 10% of British target shooters shoot left-handed anyway, due to a lack of suitable left-handed rifles and associated kit. Really the only disadvantage is in certain elements of CQB. Modified tactics and issue of short-barrel C8s to units likely to do a lot of CQB largely fixes that problem.
@@lordsummerisle87 here in australia the f88 (steyr aug as most know it) is ambidextrous so the ejector port can be switched over in a matter of seconds. The famas also is ambidextrous. The new version of the f88 the f90 has a case deflector aswell so should you pick up a right or left handed configured rifle you dont get hot brass in the face.
As for new recruits not having experience is fine and all but its not just a matter of teaching right handedness, you cant teach right eye dominance. Its not an overly complicated design feature to implement. If it were upto me, the commonwealth would still be using the SLR. The west had to adopt the american calibre but had to make their own guns because the licensing from colt in order to domestically make the m16/m4 was too expensive.
@@Gruvy unfortunately it's not just a problem with ejection with the L85, the bolt handle is fixed to the carrier and reciprocates into your maw and gives you a case of summer teeth (summer here, summer there...) if you try to shoot it lefty. I don't know if it was a deliberate design requirement to have a fixed/reciprocating bolt handle or was just something done in ignorance by the design team but it does, whereas the non-reciprocating handle of the AUG avoids that issue.
Cross eye dominance isn't a huge issue. I've personally taught several cross eye dominant people to shoot a rifle straight in a civilian context. It's not ideal for crossing targets but it works okay.
The FAL/SLR was a good rifle in the 50s but it would have been a better one in .280" British (7mm MK2) ;-) It holds a special place in the hearts of a lot of old squaddies, diggers and kiwis but let's face it, it's never been a particularly accurate rifle. If you have to hump everything with you (rather than take a battle taxi to the firefight or get a regular resupply from something mechanical) 5.56 is a better round. It also virtually eliminates the requirement for a PDW for troops carrying too much crap for an SLR, which was usually a rather ineffective Sterling. And if your role requirement needs 7.62 these days there are far better more accurate, reliable and modular rifles out there like the modern AR10s.
I don't understand why people hate on bullpups so much. I mean I will always choose an AK platform rifle wherever possible. Bullpups are imo quite good.
The Brits were the first to use the AR15 as far back as 1962 in the Borneo Confrontation with the Indonesians.
Except the Borneo confrontation was in 63-66
Very cool rifle. I might build a clone of the longer barreled one some day. I agree with you Ian that many people today make too big of a deal about the finger bump AR grips. I am also indifferent with the forward assist and don't see what the big fuss is with that either.
I acquired one of the U.K. RAS lower sections while I was a KAC dealer years ago. It still resides on my go-to carbine.
Thanks, Canada for the AR rail-top upper receiver!
Fun fact. James Bond uses this in No Time to Die, shows how much thought is put into movies with him being essentially Navy UKSF
Judging from photos from IMFDB, it appears that the film armorers used an American variant as it has a 5 position adjustable stock. But it more than likely was intended to be a C8.
The Diemaco C7/8 are actually the standard issue rifles for the Dutch Army and some Airforce units as well. The C8 used to be what the Dutch special forces (Korps Commando Troepen) used as well, but they have switched to the HK416. Interesting, I had never really looked into them specifically but it's cool to see where they originate from!
The Danish and the Canadian army also use the C7/C8 as the standard issueed rifle.
Really nice to see you getting your hands on one of these beauties. Small correction at the end, while the Royal Marines would certainly love to have this as their primary rifle, currently more units are issued the L85A2 than the L119A1. The Diemaco is only being issued to specific units, namely 43 Commando Fleet Protection Group, 42 Commando and 30 Commando Surveillance and Reconnaissance Squadron. The Army also issue the A1 to the Pathfinders, 29 Commando Royal Artillery and to the Royal Military Police Close Protection Unit as well.
The Royal Marines are in the process of switching over to the L119 though I suspect this is gradual.
I suggest that the stepped flash hider is engineered that specific way, to functionally engage in the scientific operation of the suppressor ?
Might be for easier insertion?
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine 👍
Thanks for the confirmation of that, I like that Idea. It’ll have the same sort of rigidity and strength as an over the barrel hunting suppressor as well. Really cool I reckon 👍👍
Thank you , Ian .
"Oh god, that's awful. You'd never want finger grooves on an AR grip"
-Hides personal AR with Hogue rubber grips w/ finger grooves from the judgemental eye of gun jesus
Yeahhh, that thing is a non issue people crab about because they can.
Ultra insightful and sublimely presented as always. Cheers Ian!
Interesting to hear my country name so many times about a rifle made here, that likely is restricted or banned to own (don't quote me on that, i haven't read the new list of scary guns law yet)
Great video as always. I always find them interesting, hope everyone is staying safe and taking care.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine Judging by the "made here" comment he's not talking about the UK, but rather Canada, which recently jammed though a law banning thousands of firearms by name.
You may not be able to have easy access to a firearm for self defense in Canada, however you can still wound someone by aggressively misgendering them. Remember though only misgender someone if you are in an absolute life or death situation, the prison sentence and fine this offense carries is hefty.
@@TheDeadfast you can still own lots of them. But yes they did ban quite a few of them. Close to two years ago i attempted to get my PAL. (Possession and acquisition license) but covid stopped the two day in class training for restricted firearms. Still waiting to be able to complete the courses required. Unfortunately.
@@bocrillz2488 my self defense is saying sor or madam, i don't have to hold the door open for you if you don't want. Lol
@@ryanwilson_canadaI'm kind of glad we have such strong gun laws and licensing, has gone a long way in creating a pretty responsible community.
They were finally like “okay our gun sucks”.
they were shipped with the DIS which was diemacos removeable iron sight/carry handle. plenty of pictures of them in use
the reinforced front sight/gas block was only used on the long barrel SFW variant
and the front sight post in the gun in the video is incorrect, they used the diemaco/colt canada front sight post which was slimmer yes but also cylindrical rather than square, i expect that the person who cloned the rifle just couldnt obtain one.
also before adopting the L119A1 uksf were using c7/colt 715 rifles (also used by pathfinders and MaWC)
I've really been in the dark on this one. Very enlightening video. Thank you for another great vid!
Interestingly a uk sfsg friend of mine hated this gun. Much preferred the l85. Ultimately he was trained in the paras with the l85 and became much more accustomed to it and found this a learning curve
Interesting... The L85 is widely known to be one of the worse rifles ever issued.
@@FloodExterminator A1 yes. A3 no.
@@FloodExterminator TH-cam propagated myth. Even the A1 SA80 is nowhere near as bad as it’s popular to say it is. Unfortunately it was designed for use in Western Europe just as the Cold War ended and was then predominantly used in dry sandy conditions which it didn’t like. I used it for 5 years and found it to be highly accurate and very reliable. The major issue with its build quality was informing the workforce that built it that it was to be their last job and they were all losing their jobs afterwards, they just threw them together without giving a fuck. The A2 and A3 fixed all the issues and it’s now a very good standard infantry rifle.
@@FloodExterminator Well yes and no. The A1s were rubbish but the A2s and A3s are very good.
Thanks for showing this. I love learning about these obscure weapons.
The sas has a long history with m16s
I read that they got them before anybody else
@@nickjohnson710 they did. Used them in Malaya I believe
M16A1s with M203s appear regularly in photos of SAS from the 1980s onwards.
@@NotALot-xm6gz They actually got them before the US Army, the first Colt AR-15's were sold to the Federation of Malaya, with an order in 1961 for British units in Malaya.
@@louissanderson719 Yes
I love how every single PIC rail slot is gnarred up and very used.
One thing I didn't hear you mention is the alleged "tapered bore" that Diemaco barrels have. I've seen it mentioned that they had a special tapered mandrel to create a bit of a "squeeze bore" effect, but it's unclear to me how accurate that is, since you'd think all CFH mandrels would be slightly tapered for removal from the hammered bore.
I like Ians's statement about the spending on testing for the rifle. Making sure the decision correct is a far better way to spend money than trying to save money on the upfront and then having to backpedal and deal with the consequences of a poorly-investigated decision. Research is a good investment, folks! Glad to hear Ian often saying the quiet part out loud.
the '99 contract, I can remember Andy McNab? writing about GW1 and carrying an M16 in that because of the unreliability of the L85, it seems to have been a practice dating back to at least the '70s with M16s being substituted for SLRs sometimes in the multinational deployment to singapore as well at the time.
Even earlier then that. The SAS and RM purchased M16s for use in Borneo, ordering about 5000 examples back in 1965.
The SAS preference for AR rifles in that period was more to do with their preference for the underbarrel grenade launcher over rifle grenades rather than reliability.
Yep. McNabb and his patrol deployed with 203 equipped M16s (and Minimis) back in the '91 Gulf war. The SAS wanted nothing to do with the L85 as soon as they got the chance to try them out: too heavy, too fragile and, most pertinently, often refused to go bang. I'm given to understand that your average special forces types are really quite insistent that their rifles go bang when the relevant bits are pressed. They regard it as important apparently.
M16s were used at squad level occasionally in place of a Sterling or L1A1 in Falklands and Northern Ireland. I believe intended to act as a pseudo machine gun kind of like the EM-2 LAG (EDIT: I MEAN ICW, NOT LAG, I AM TALKING ABOUT THE MACHINE CARBINE USE OF THE EM-2 I FUCKED UP MY TERMINOLOGY) concept.
@@zoiders I was referring to the 1991 Gulf War period, as referenced in the original comment about Andy McNabb. He specifically stated in his book that the grenade launchers were one of the main reasons they used the AR platform.
Its quite a leap from the gear used in the gulf war. If you look at the gear loadout for Bravo Two Zero it is surprising how low speed their weapons were, 203s and SAWs. Its the indian not the arrow.
did over gassing also lead to any extractor longevity and/or extraction problems? One can remember the original M16 issues.
I love that Diemco figured out it was ok to put the collapsable stock on the M16. That was a good idea. All the UK Special Forces we worked used everything except the L85.
Sounds about right. And no, I never met someone who chose to carry that thing.
@@pkt1213 the only instance I have heard of SF units using the sa80 was when they’re trying to blend in with regular forces.
This is something that apparently goes on for covert reasons but this is only what I heard and have no clue on the validity
Definitely beats the SA 80 and looks a million times better.
yall don’t understand how fucking shit the sa80 is until you’ve used it, the ergonomics are SHIT
@@humblenoob7631 Something tells me you havent used the L85A2 or A3.
They fix the ergonomics issue.
@@titytitmk2738 eeeh, mostly.
It gets beaten by modern bullpups, i.e. Tavor X95, MDR, VHS2...
@@humblenoob7631 I'm a lefty so I'm shit outta luck if I'd ever have to use on of those things 😭
@@humblenoob7631 I've used it for 10yrs and never had an issue with ergonomics 🤷🏼♂️
Also something that should be mentioned. As a Canadian Armed Forces veteran, that lever on the cocking handle is only held in place by a pretty flimsy roll pin. Give it a bit too much oomph and the lever will stay in your hand.
Can’t wait to see the L119A2 on here 🔥
If you can't figure out why someone did a thing, fall back to "Rule of Cool".
It looked neat, so why not?
A SAS Sgt once said during my jungle training that they rejected SA80 on the fact that the trigger finger had to be used to take the safety off ,.also the auto fire select.is.i the wrong position
also it's a piece of sh!t
For the flash hider, It was the SF device to be used as well as a Simon grenade launcher mount for the L119 15.7' barrels with the stepped collar/sleeve.
Been using a Lonestar grip for years, never knew UKSF used them!
Waiting on an L119A2 review! Great video! Greetings from Brazil!
In addition to this UKSF also really liked the SIG Sauer P226 (L105A1) for their sidearm predominantly used by UK SAS and SBS.
Nah they switched to the glock17 and 19 now.
As far as I’m aware they used the P229 because of it’s size which is better for more covert work, whilst the P226 was used by the rest of the UK military as a whole.
@@4282richard this is outdated info. The UK military has adopted the Glock 17 and SF units are using a mixture of 17 and 19's.
@@iamjames8200 yeah even the RAF are using glocks now
@@iamjames8200 hence the use of the past tense “liked”
I was lucky enough to handle (but not fire) a real one of these on one of my gulf deployments in about 2001. The operator had it fitted with an ACOG but strangely enough he had an independent red dot mounted forward of the ACOG, on the upper RAS rail, which I thought was weird but he swore by it. It was one of those early Trijicon reflex sights. He also had a Knight’s style vertical fore grip and an Insight LAM 200, maybe on trial before they adopted the PEQ 14.
Ian "They spent more money testing than they did purchasing"
England "Measure twice, cut once."
It's the same country that developed the sa80
@@Truthbomb918 YES the SA 80 was England's early M16, measure once cut twice project and it appears they learnt their lesson.
@@Truthbomb918 The relatively minor engineering firm entrusted with the design and development of Britain's newest rifle had never done anything like that before.
This was the cause of all the problems.
The political creatures behind this execrable decision have yet to be brought to account, and should soon be dead of old age.
Ever since, Britain has allied itself with or bought arms firms to do this kind of work, resulting in an improvement of front-line arms. As seen in this video.
The ancient adage quoted in this thread, 'measure twice, cut once' is how sane Brits do things.
@@stevetheduck1425 I gotta say, the Brits always have the most eloquent excuses for their shortcomings. If you only ever asked a Brit, you'd think there was never an incompetent human on that entire island! And they sure af don't give Americans the same benefit of the doubt.
Guess this is what convinced them to finally go with the new rifle L403A1, finally out guys and girls in green get a weapon - although i understand the L85 got increasingly better but its early reputation preceeded it
So the AR15/M4 isn't going anywhere anytime soon! So crazy how little it's changed in the time it's been around.
It's changed a hell of a lot. While it looks similar, there are a lot of subtle changes.
As are AKs & G3 (to a lesser extent)
like the shark, its perfectly adapted to its environment
@@robbiepemberton except it's worse feature, direct gas impingement
@@tonybuk70 it's failed in just about every environment it's been to war in
Nice to see the Brit's and Canuck's using an American designed rifle that they made their own improvements on. It just shows the AR platform is a great base for whatever you need.
Wondering if maybe flash hider profile is specifically machined to interface with interior of suppressor to ensure it is centered on the bore given the use of QD mount.
I was thinking it's some bayonet compatibility thing.
There are some pretty major falsehoods and inaccuracies I feel I should clear up. The main reason this weapon was adopted instead of the M4 was the modifications on the Deimaco variant, in particular the barrel which was superior to the M4. The accuracy of the M4 was not deemed to be sufficient and the C8 had higher accuracy due to its barrel. In fact the shorter barrelled Deimaco was found to be just as accurate as the 16.5inch barrelled M4 at 200m! Some info on this video is incorrect, and although it's a good video (thanks) I feel I should point out some (not all) of the inaccuracies. Firstly for about 2 decades before UKSF adopted the Deimaco, they had been issued as standard an export model of the Colt M16A2. This also had a heavier, improved barrel to the standard US issue M16A2. L1A1's had gone decades before the Deimaco, and by Gulf War 1 the M16A2 variant was already well established as their standard weapon in long barrel, with shorter barrels in smaller numbers for specific roles. HK's were issued only for some specific domestic CT roles, such as MP5's for black kit CT and Hostage rescue, and HK53 for undercover CT roles as two examples. G3's were on issue for the CT sharpshooter role. They were also for several years issued with only the removable handrail iron sight setup, ACOG's came into issue a few years into Iraq/Afghanistan. PEQ's were never mounted underneath the handguard. This is just a nonsense to any operator as it's where your supporting hand needs to go. PEQ's were mainly mounted on top, and sometimes on the side. Top was favoured for very obvious reasons. The butt pad is removable, in fact they are so prone to simply falling off that most operators secured them with a plasticuff, a practise that continues to this day on the C8 variants still in use with this type of stock (Pathfinders and Royal Marines Commando's). I hope this is helpful.
I have plenty of these charging handles in my stock ;) The sling plate on this rifle isn't correct for a L119A1, it's a C7A2 one
I believe the tines on the flash hider were designed so that when the weapon would fire the vibration of bullet moving through the barrel wouldn’t cause a tuning fork sound. I could be wrong but I read somewhere that early three prong flash hiders had that tuning fork sound issue making a pinging sound.
This should have been the standard issue rifle to ALL british troops, not just the SF.
Why when the Sa80 has a longer barrel and range. Not all firefights are close range
@@Truthbomb918 I assume they mean the 15.7" variant. And despite my Stockholm Syndrome for SA80, they're not wrong :)
@@Truthbomb918 Most are, though. If you need more range you need a 308. Longer barrel won't cut it.
@@maxpulido4268 most are not.
@@Truthbomb918 The rifle in the video can have a longer barrel as an option, Ian states that. The SA80 was a good design that lacked build quality.
even their special forces dont have a loicense for that knife
Not sure if the RMC are using this, might just be some units like Commando Artillery.
43 CDO fleet protection group are definitely using it
30 commando, 42 commando and seen members of 40 with them too. I think they’re beginning to phase out the sa80 over time
On the "why that muzzle device" question Ian posed, I propose the following. The reduced OD of the flash hider may have been to increase the internal volume of the first chamber of the suppressor, thus allowing more gas to be burned off than if the space had been occupied by steel. Just a thought, and it may have already been prosed.
Does it come with a roll of black tape to go across the operators eyes?
u wot m8
I never knew about this as a part of my country's history. Fantastic video
This weapon also doesn't clearly identify who its users are like the L85A (1,2,3) would.
The many unique details he spends much of the video describing would clearly identify the rifle's origins, if not it's users.
@@stevetheduck1425
Ok, sure.
It looks like the rifle of many, many western forces.🤦
Unless you've a telescope and willing SF bloke.
I feel like Americans would draw more fire than Brits.
But on the downside makes you look like a Yank, which is never a good thing.
I read M16 variant and saw Ian’s face as I was scrolling. I immediately thought it was a Covid joke and had to scroll back to fully read.
I love how he calls the C7 the M16 without the stupid stuffs.
Nah that extended lever is a blessing when you find that sweet spot to hang it off your webbing on a ruck march without it racking
Are you going to do a video on the C7 and the C79?
C79 could be interesting. Doesn't the US still use it (with their own designation M145 of course) for their M240s and M249s?
Ian, you don't have gigantic hands. That useless bit on the grip made my service rifle so uncomfortable to shoot that while waiting to go over the berm in 90-91 I cut mine off.
When asked I just stared stupidly and said it came that way, but I liked it better cause it actually fit my hand. Then I showed him my hand and he walked away mumbling. No harm no foul 😁
I used that annoying charging handle in the danish military. I ended up having the weapons mechanic remove the whole "extended part" of it, because it would get caught in the mag pouches on my vest.. Plus the charging handle without the extension did not cut your hands if they were freezing 🥶👌
Canadian vet here, the overwhelming majority of C7 and C7-adjacent rifles I've seen have actually ditched that huge, goofy-ass charging handle in favour of the smaller US-pattern ones off the M16A2/M4A1. I was issued one with the original big lever on basic and didn't find it poked me all that much, but it did snag on my webbing all the time, and actually snapped off in the field and had to be replaced. Make of that what you will.
Edit: the factory C7/C8 pistol grip has a storage compartment too by the way, that isn't unique to these rifles ;)