DS-39: The Failed Soviet Machine Gun of World War Two
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The Soviet Union recognized the need for a modernized machine gun to replace the Maxim, and in the late 1920s Degtyarev began work on a “universal” type of gun. This would be air cooled, use standard Maxim belts and 7.62x54R ammunition, and used as a tripod mounted infantry gun, a vehicle mounted gun, and also as an anti-aircraft gun. The first prototype was delivered in 1930, and over the next 9 years it was tested and developed (including the addition of a Shpagin type rotary feed system). It was formally approved and adopted in 1939, and production began in June 1940 - just in time to see service in the Winter War against Finland.
Unfortunately, the testing that had made the gun look ready for service had not been adequate, and when DS39s reached the field they quickly began having major problems. In particular, the gun was plagued by out of battery detonations and a remarkable type of malfunction in which the bolt opened violently enough that it would pull the an unfired cartridge case out of its belt while leaving the bullet still in the belt. An investigation by Soviet ordnance found no suitable way to fix these problems on the fly, and production ceased only a year after it began. A total of just 10,345 were made, and the Red Army kept using its old 1910 Maxim guns instead. A new machine gun program was quickly put in place, and the result was the Goryunov SG-43 several years later.
The Finnish Army captured a quantity of DS39 machine guns during the Winter War, and VKT (the State Rifle Factory) actually came up with a number of improvements to the design, which were implemented on those guns in Finnish hands (unfortunately I don't have details on just what those improvements were).
Contact:
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"Designing something which could fulfill multiple roles"
It's amazing how many failed military projects start this way.
To paraphrase Mr. Rogers: "Can you say 'F-35'? I knew you could."
(^-_-^)
Well, in the case of the universal machine gun, the concept was solid.
It's amazing how the Stoner 63 successfully did that, but saw very limited usage :(
Ah modularity.
Engineer: It’s designed to be adapted to multiple rolls.
People who actually use it: So you’re telling me that it doesn’t do anything particularly well
Big shout out to whoever it is who keeps their glockenspiel in the same place as their sub-machine guns.
but what calibers does the glock enspiel come in,🤔
I saw that and was wondering the same
And more importantly, does it take Glock magazines?
That moment when you realize the name of one of the most common pistols in the world is German for “bell”.
@@singleproppilot almost there ... (Glocke) :-)
Ian: Film the machine gun
Camera: Mosins
Ian: No, machine gun, bad camera!
Camera: Moooooosins
Good one.😂😂
Interesting gun, but honestly I am more interested in the room itself...
The basement hidey hole of my dreams.😁😁😁😁
I wonder if any companies make wallpaper in a pattern such as this.
@@John_Redcorn_ you broke into the WRONG rec room you bastard!
@@MrTenhighguy tell me about it! I just found a new life goal.
The mortars
Never come across a gun that converts live ammo into blanks automatically before!
Watch Ian's video on interesting malfunctions. The Bond Arms Bullpup does precisely that.
DS stands for "Degtyarev-Stankovyi" ("Дегтярёв-Станковый", literally Degtyarev-Mounted). Also, problem Ian mentions at 12:30 in Russian calls "распуливание" - "raspulivanie", literally "debulletization". Also, DS was put put of production not because it's problems were unsolvable, but because GRAU decided, that during wartime they not have time and resourses to fix it.
"распуливание" - "raspulivanie", literally "debulletization" = disconnection the case with the bullet
@@patrickglaser1560 The Glock-17 and the PM are pistols from the different 'weight categories'
@@patrickglaser1560 are i see you a man of culture as well.uamee makes good music
That was what I thought he was going to lead with, that it was discontinued as it would have tied up resources better fed into other arms manufacture in comparison. While it's not unsolvable, the fact it would have to have the problems identified (not just in WHAT, but HOW and WHY), corrected, retooled, and then reissued to everyone using them would be a significant amount of resources to stake on an MG that wasn't in too high a production yet. Russia, at the time, needed arms that worked. Not ones that need work to function.
@@n147258noah it wasn't unique problem and the source was actually poor ammo quality. ShKAS had special high quality ammo labeled with aircraft propeller made for it for this exact reason. Problem was solved only after Lend Lease started... and majority of arriving ammo in first batches was unusable for ShKAS:D Local factories operated on various "know how" basis depending on individual factory, but never have put their own adjustment to technological process to paper. As the result ammo produced in US had followed obsolete specification and as such traces of powder and sealant were reacting and de-sealing rounds. As such the bullet was easy to pull out of the case and could easily malfunction. The result was that US designers had chosen different sealant for the next batch based on provided info and then new sealant was adopted in soviet production too.
Basically the problem was treating the issue as temporary one and instead of resolving it, allowing it to continue and use separate ammo made on "know-how" basis to be used in ShKAS. Administrative incompetence.
Well, they _are_ fascinating Mosins.
What is the most fascinating is that the Finns manage to turn them into actually really good guns....
8:31 But there's full auto for 600 RPM and fuller auto for 1,200 RPM.
Why yes sir, my gun does in fact go to 11.
Leave it to Russia to bring a meme to life, before memes were even a thing.
"That's not full auto, this is full auto"
@@tredbobek It's just semi full auto and full auto.
@@sjoormen1 that joke went right over your head, he had quotations for a reason. He is referring to a viral airsoft youtube video of a guy shooting semi auto indoors very quickly, he gets accused of full auto, states the above line and demonstrates a AEG firerate that would make warthog giggle.
I feel like Ian has spent more time in the basements of strange men than Clarice Starling.
It puts the lotion on the skin...
Watch out for Miggs!
> Tripod Machineguns
> Sold off as Surplus
that's it! I'm moving to Finland!
Russia: This machine gun is no good, we’re taking it out of production after a year
Finland: We sold our last one in 1986
Seems like Finns engineers can really work out the problems the Communist Russians couldn't.
@@mikecampos1193 Or simply "beggar can't choose".
@@mikecampos1193 I suspect that they sat in reserve stocks for most of that time.
@@MrDgwphotos Likely, the Finns have a history of keeping lots of hardware on the books.
@@mikecampos1193 it's not that they couldn't, it's that they didn't have the time nor the resources to put into it once the war broke out
In the Background, barely noticed, another Forgotten Weapon. The Lyra. Disguised as a music instrument, this thing is a real killer. Carry it for 10 miles and you know what I´m talking about. Can´t wait for Ian to explain it´s features.
Then the DS-39 passed in hystory as the only firearm where the case was faster than the bullet.
I love how causally Ian drops how this thing still has the grease from over 80 years ago
Winter war ended in march 1940, so this was not in production before winter war. Maybe some prototypes and/or preproduction examples were captured by the Finns during Winter war but majority (if not all) vere probably captured at the beginning of Continuation war (june 1941->).
Soviets actually sent a lot of prototypes to Winter War. Famous example are the KV/SMK/T-100 prototypes.
@@victorzvyagintsev1325 don't forget those prototype tanks at the battle of Moscow
Wasn't June 1941 the end of production date?
Finland is a gun collectors dream. They bought anything they could get their hands on and never threw something away. 😁
Ribbed for your pleasure.
Also, cooling.
Reading through comments on FW for the past few years paid off 200% today!
Also has 2 modes, slow but fast amd just really fast, but be aware we do not take any fault of it exploding or being violent when in use
Y'know, as soon as you said it had a dual rate of fire, I imagined some russian machinegunner just clicking it over to 1200 to give the germans a taste of their own ROF!
DShK have the same option actually.
@@avtomaticeskijrazdatcikgus2713 That's beautiful, and terrifying
Yeah, except it was never used against sie Germans. In fact, they discontinued production when Germany invaded.
@@Psiberzerker Still, was an entertaining thought!
@@thomasfield3185 It's a fantasy. The reality is the Nazis defeated themselves because they burned fuel, and ammo that they didn't have. So, when they got within sight of Moscow, they were unable to fight. That's what you're talking about: Wasting ammo like the Nazis.
I am in awe of everything on screen in this video. It's like someone 'painted' the room with firearms. Truly an impressive collection.
Ian: D-S-H-K
My smoothbrain: Dishck
Virgin Dishck vs Chad Dooshka
Dishka
I know Ian said this was shot in Finland, but for giggles, I imagined it was his playroom at home. :-)
The machining involved in that thing is insane… That barrel!….
It has ALL the cooling fins. Love it!
I wonder if someone could have made a sale to the Elbonians based on the dual rate of fire feature.
This is definitely canon now
While the dual rate of fire would probably appeal to them, the complete lack of speed holes might have been a turn off.
@@andersjjensen Ehhh…. The speed ribs are pretty cool tho…
"It was air-cooled" *barrel is 40% heatsink*
Gee, I couldn't tell.
You could arm a lot of insurgents just with that background
The camera was focused on the background because of Mannerheim's glistening eyes on the top right.
Gun jesus has blessed us once again
Amen
Truly he is our lord and savour
Go with Jesus my son
* choir noises rise in the background
A blessing from the lord
We used one of these while filming the Unknown Soldier (2017). It was setup to use a Finnish steel maxim belt with blanks. You can see it in the movie / series after the Finns cross the river with assault boats.
Hi! Thanks for sharing it! I dind't know about this movie. Was it it bassed on the novel written by Guy Sajer which has the same name?
@@mihaimihai9254 no, it's based on the novel Tuntematon sotilas by Väinö Linna
@@mihaimihai9254 You're thinking of 'The Forgotten Soldier'.
@@gamebook727 Yes, you're right. In my native language the book's title was translated as "Unknown soldier" and this is why I used that name.
@@petrimakela5978 & Nik Thanks a lot! I hope I'll be able to find this book and watch the movie.
The "AK-FORTY SLINKY"... a staircase squadrons worse nightmare
I know this is a small thing, but if the DS-39 was equipping troops going to Finland to fight in the winter war, then it had to be put to production in june of 1939, not 1940. Because in june of 1940 the winter war was already over. So either Ian you meant the continuation war (1941-1944) or then this gun went to production in june of 1939. Thank you for the video. Good as always, and love to see you looking at second world war guns :)!
Hello Ian, I have a somewhat specific question. Ive been a military small arms repairman for 9 years, so ive worked on the MK-19 40mm Grenade launcher quite a bit. Upon seeing this video I realized the feed system seems to be inspired by this firearms as well as the Maxim (honestly was never aware the Maxim fed that way.) My question is on the MK19 the primary feed arm (the arm the positions the round from the top to bottom of the bolt face) has to maintain a near perfect condition along the surface of the arm that contacts the round, according to the TM for reliable function. It is a Deadline if any marring or imperfections are on the primary feed arm. Does the Maxim or Ds-39 have any similar maintenance requirements, I know this could be outside of your scope but I was curious and appreciate your time greatly. If anyone else would like to discuss maintenance and what not, don't be afraid to hit me up!
Love the videos been a fan since the beginning
-- Reid
I just finished Ian's newest video on range firing the DS-39, and as soon as he started loading it, and I saw the slot in the bolt - my old US Army MP training with the MK-19 kicked in. I recognized it and came to this video thinking I couldn't be the only one to see it. - It still took me *years* later to find out what a goddamn ogive plunger was, and what it did. - Kind of makes me wonder if the same idea might help with the jamming on the DS-39... or started with trying to fix the DS-39 and evolved into the ogive plunger on the MK-19.
And in terms of time - we're only talking about the difference between us today, and 1980, so it was actually a pretty quick evolution. I think - maybe even more time has passed since the MK-19 went into production... Don't forget your LSA!
I’m with the other commenters - shooting from this location really adds to my interest. I was often distracted by the gear on the back wall (not that it was a bad thing, just different). I love your work, Ian. You are a master of your craft.
Thanks for uploading another video from forgotten weapons... :) The legend lives on.
As I recall even Degtyarev himself admitted the SG was the superior gun. At least according to Max Popenker's book on MG's..
Soviet version of 'Development Hell,' a project that never seems to end, and yet never quite manages to produce a suitable product, but gets forced into production anyway.
The captive main spring is pretty nifty.
you could call it development gulag.
@@Jinx1337x damn. That's perfect!
They did drop the DS-39 very quickly because they dropped every project at all that wasn't absolutely required and would yield results ASAP (in all areas).
But interestingly, there was a true development hell ahead! in 1942-42, most Soviet firearm design firms / factories continued to try and tackle the machine gun problem during the war, squeezing it between more urgent projects. I read like a 7-parter article on these, there were dozens of models trialled, both for a new LMG, and the new medium MG. They struggled immensely with normal feeding for the rimmed 54R in magazines for LMGs. There were even models of pistol-caliber (7.62x25) LMGs! Also, most of the submissions (heavy and light) were both extremely rushed and faced incredibly strict requirements (to be cheaper, better etc. than the pre-war models and be good _right now_). So this dragged on till post-war, with the exception of the ostensibly adequate Goryunov. Here's a small sampler of that series
www.kalashnikov.ru/pulemyotnaya-drama-krasnoj-armii-2/ "ASAP" LMGs
www.kalashnikov.ru/pulemyotnaya-drama-krasnoj-armii/ pistol-caliber MGs
www.kalashnikov.ru/pulemyotnaya-drama-krasnoj-armii-3/ Maxim replacements
@@ayebraine brilliant.
Thank you!
Another great video! Thanks for all of your attention to detail. I found the system for extracting cartridges from the belt and positioning them for feeding to be especially interesting. I wasn't familiar with this method, yet.
There was something about the camera angles and lighting on the gun close ups especially when you were showing how the feed system works Ian that seemed especially high quality this time around. Keep up the great work!
WHERE IS THIS ROOM? I MUST VISIT IT!
@@foleymaj it's a private collection in Finland.
Nope. My friend's private collection.
@@petrimakela5978 @Antti Eskelinen Well damn, that's something else. Some of this stuff comes out to shooting irregulary?
I know some people here in Finland have big collections but damn...
@@foleymaj they get range time, I hope I'll get there one day too. Just too damn busy
@@petrimakela5978 hopefully we get a shooting vid of this beast
Still hoping for a video shooting tour to Russia to reveal a bunch of hidden gems that are stored in construction bureaus around Moscow. With a proper guide to gain access ofc. I personally saw a few of the collections and actually used forgotten weapons archive to identify some of the stuff. :)
Great video, as always Ian! I see the cartridge ripper design that was implemented to feed the 7.62 x 54R rounds-ingenious! I wonder if this is the same design used in later mg's shooting this round?-John in Texas
@Forgotten Weapons Just a thought: did you ever planned to visit Military-Historical Museum of Artillery, Engineer and Signal Corps in Saint-Petersburg? It's not so far from the Helsinki :)
Thanks👍
Some interesting looking stuff in that room 🤔😁
06:43 I feel the camera, that one Mosin in the background has an extraordinary beautiful stock. What a piece!
ah yes, xylophone harp, a gun
Glockenspiel, from the German meaning "game of Glocks". :)
*looks at the back wall*
Ah, yes, the deadly....xylophone harp?
Not as dangerous as the flying bass drum mallet. Marching bands can hurt you in very creative ways.
Pretty damn deadly. When tossed like a Frisbee.
Never underestimate the power of a bard.
I spent the entire video looking at the mortars when they were on the screen
DP-27, you say?
The Lord smiles on you, Ian. Mounted, and loaded.
Another great video..
6:40 Well, those are some fine old Mosins! Seriously though, that's a spiffy captive spring arrangement for the mainspring. That rounded feed way seems unique, and Degtyaryov's flapper-lock was a cool system anyways. And if that's not exotic enough, it's got an accelerator lever (bullet puller included at no additional cost)!
What a nifty gun, and what an awe-inspiring collection it's a part of. Thanks Ian!
Love your history lessons. Thanks 😊 Good Fortunes Great Successes 🤘
Fun fact: This was filmed in Simo Häyhä’s attic. Lots of trophies, couldn’t fit a T-26 in there though.
Sorry but this is not true :D
I expected to see mounted trophies.
Thank you , Ian .
Failed? That's new take. Especially after version of ShKAS with cloth belt that was tested by tankers, I'd hardly call it a failure. Would have also been great to cover DT-39 here, but only a handfull photos and few reports of it survived.
P.S.: it wasn't unique problem and the source was actually poor ammo quality. ShKAS also suffered from it and thus had special high quality ammo (labeled with aircraft propeller on crates) made for it for this exact reason. Problem was solved only after Lend Lease started... and majority of arriving ammo in first batches was unusable for ShKAS:D Local factories operated on various "know how" basis depending on individual factory, but never have put their own adjustment to technological process to paper. As the result ammo produced in US had followed obsolete specification and as such traces of powder and sealant were reacting and de-sealing rounds. As such the bullet was easy to pull out of the case and could easily malfunction. The result was that US designers had chosen different sealant for the next batch based on provided info and then new sealant was adopted in soviet production too.
Basically the problem was treating the issue as temporary one and instead of resolving it, allowing it to continue and use separate ammo made on "know-how" basis to be used in ShKAS. Administrative incompetence.
That room... oh my...
3:42 maybe it's just the angle, but has ian got a new camera? Every movement in this shot just looks so much smoother
Fun fact: this weapon can be seen in the film DANGER CLOSE about an Australian force pinned down by NVA
Nice gun collection
Ian is explaining about the reciever, while a panzerfaust projectile is conveniently lying on the floor in the background.
I've got one of those Swedish optical range finders... they are a pretty slick piece of kit, if a bit bulky.
Are we in Ian’s basement?
Only if he moved to Finland 😉
It's our sacred Mosin altar in Finland. We use it for our prayers to Gun Jesus so he can bless us over the seas.
🤔 I am thinking that it's a Hidden room behind the fireplace!!
@@worldtraveler930 🤣
His childhood rumpus room.
His childhood rifle collection, too.
Flapper locking Degteryev was the first locking mechanism that sent me on the forever journey of appreciating firearms engineering...
When you consider how tight of a crimp the Soviet's put on 7.62x54r cartridges it's nuts the action was so violent that it was able to pull the shell casings right off the bullets when extracting from the belt.
What impresses me is the fact that Ian, without any formal training on this weapon, can disassemble and reassemble it, and give us a good training video on its operation. I used to do this on US weapons and seeing Ian do it so effortlessly, with no real training on it, he really is "Gun Jesus" because thats a neat miracle inself.
I suspect that's because we don't see the part before the camera comes on where he goes: "Uhh.. if this is connected here.. yeah, that must be.. no?.. aaah! ok! I get it now... I think that this- *SPROING* ... $@#!!! that was not a captive spring!..." :P
Big gun
Big gun
Gun big
Big gun
Big gun
Big gun
Cool locking system!
The "claw" that strips the cartridge looks very similar to the PKM system. This is basically the only advantage a rimmed carridge has over a centerfier it would seem.
Gun Jesus seems to have relocated to a colder, but better place.
Soon he will move to Russia, to Izhevsk or Tula. Soon...
@@mihan2d he is not an idiot; why would he move to Russia?
@@PalleRasmussen Because r/woosh. Also you yourself ain't very smart indirectly calling everyone who willingly lives in Russia idiots.
@@mihan2d Reddit moment
@@mihan2d Anyone who willingly lives in Russia and doesn’t have some important reason they need to live their (family, a job they can’t get elsewhere, etc) is an idiot. The political system their is terrible.
that's what a living room should look like (preferably mine) .
I second that motion!!!
There used to be a gun shop in my area that had a decommissioned Maxim gun for sale. It had a sign on it that said something to the effect of, "Doesn't work, but will look amazing in your breakfast nook."
The way this feeds reminds me of a mk19 where there's a cam pushing the round down on the bolt face
Thank you again
It's surprising we Finns retained the gun until 1986 although it was so flawed. Does anyone have any experience of it in Finnish use in the 1980s? I did my conscription in 1989-90, so it was gone by then. I did come into contact with Pystykorvas, Suomi submachine guns and Degtyarev light machine guns, ranger troops were taught their basics.
They were definitely not used for training in the 80's just sat on emergency stockpiles
The Winter War was Nov 1939 - Mar 1940. If it went into production in June 1940, it would have been too late for that conflict.
That's a *lot* like how the Mk19 works, minus the style of belt feed. Very interesting.
All of these sights are set up for such extreme ranges, it would be really cool to know how far was the longest shot someone ever hit with some of these WW2 guns
Those flat springs on each side of the bolt looka lot like Mosin interruptors.
@ 8m there is a Puma backpack when he lifts the receiver & I swear I thought it was a Puma logo on the inside of the gun..
6:43 dont blame the camera, mosins are pretty neat
Lots of nice design features.
In the beginning of the Greate Patriotic War leaders infantry divisions of the Red Army was armed with semi-automatic rifle of Tokaryev SVT-40. When that divisions were defeated, new divisions began to refuse of SVT-40, sayng 'it very bad weapon'. That why soviet infantry had been armed with rifle mod. 1891/1930. But soviet snipers and marines was not thinking about SVT-40 like a 'very bad weapon'. They had been armed of the SVT-40 at 1941-1945. Germans was captured as trophies a large number of SVT-40 and took them into service like Selbstladegewehr 258(r) and Selbstladegewehr 259(r). In the Wehrmacht not thinking about SVT-40 like a 'very bad weapon'.
Main problem of SVT-40, like in the case with DS-39 was in the illiterate and unskillful soldiers.
Imagine doing a drive-by shooting with this badass.
Clip-clop, clip-clop, clip-clop, BANG.
(Amish drive-by shooting.)
Always a good history lesson.
The machine work on that gun is amazing.
Back in the late 70s i had a baikal air gun - barrel jammed pellets.
Must’ve made you light up an entire pack of Belomorkanal.
@@g0679 Weapons For Peace! ;-)
This weapon was featured prominently in the Ukrainian RTS series called Men of War as the Soviet's primary fixed machine-gun.
the one in men of war its the gs 39, different gun
thank you!
I was having a dream where some guy was showing me his new heavy machinegun (which if it was real would have been a forgotten weapon very quickly) just around the time when this was posted. Just a coincidence, but a weird one none the less.
Great video as usual.
That's a lot of metal that has to get milled away to make that
Speaking of failed machine guns, I was wondering if you ever made a video on the M73/M219? I looked through its wikipedia and it sure is a piece of work. It fires around 600 rpm, and has a mean rounds between stoppages of 215 under ideal conditions. It's such an absurdly low reliability for a specially-designed tank machine gun.
Ian looks at the parts laying all over and yells HELP..
Cheers from a very Russia-adjacent spot. Large military display here today and I was looking at some of the vehicle mounted machine guns and wondering what they are. They looked almost like DShK models.
Update: because these were mounted on their Cobras, from what I'm reading, it looks like they might actually be DShKMs, indeed.
Yeah, yanking the cartridge case off the bullet might be a bit violent, kinda!
Nice, didn't knew this MMG.
Dunno if said intentionally but I love the transition:
"it had two fire rates..." and after that "At any rate..."
Yes I was also tickled pink.
4:17 easily the weirdest bolt I ever seen.😶🤨
Hi and thanks Ian!
As I see it, the accelerator lever actually lowers the acceleration of the bolt (1st: the carrier contacts the acc. lever - the bolt is at 1/2 of the speed of the carrier, 2nd: the lug of the bolt reaches the end of the groove on the carrier = the bolt is at 1/1 of the speed of the carrier... roughly, depends on the exact leverage ratio). Since the lever is quite tiny and seems to be added on the design rather than beeing conceptual part of it, one may assume they added the lever in order to midigate the debulleting effect..
Ahh, I blasphemed terribly, my lord Gun Jesus forgive me! Hope I'm all wrong.
An early morning video? Fuck yeah!
The smell of cosmoline in the morning…
Looks like a wonderful HMG.
Makes me wonder whether the testing regimen was specifically designed to pass that gun, or if they just hadn't considered real field conditions when setting it up.
I can't really imagine how one would keep the soilders from cranking it up to 1200 lmao
I feel the camera checking out those mosins