Britain's Czech-made WW2 tank machine gun in.. .303? With Curatorial Assistant, Christian Wellard
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.พ. 2023
- It was clear to British weapon procurement in the mid-thirties that war in Europe was fast approaching. Britain, in its haste to adopt an aircooled machine gun for its tanks and AFVs turned to the Czech ZB-53.
However, with the time constraints of a rapidly approaching conflict, this .303 variant was destined to be a minor footnote in what would become the Besa.
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Very interesting video and Christian is a good presenter. Thanks.
At first, I was upset. Where was Jonathan, and who is this guy. However, I was very impressed with the narrator. He was prepared, the lighting was good, and the camera angles very informative. I would rate him as excellent and the video very instructive. If this is his first video, when he gets used to doing them, he will be a force to recon with. He field stripped that machine gun like he had been doing it since he was a kid.
Not his first - if you check back through the channel you'll find a couple more. Christian's been researching the Besa for us as it hasn't had a lot of serious attention previously.
@@jonathanferguson1211 Thanks for the info. I hadn't seen any of his previous videos. I will try to find them. You have done a good job taking him under your wing(so to speak). Great channel. I am new to u-tube(I'm 81) and only recently retired. I hunted for antelope, deer and elk, for meat for the table, most of my life. My only exposure to fire arms were 30.40 kraig, 30.06 and .22 pump, so channels like your and Ian's are fascinating to me in my old age. I look forward to every one of your videos. I'm not concerned with the sound quality and lighting. At my age, I'm amazed I can sit in my home and see a video from England(I live in Montana US).
@Jonathan Ferguson the man,the myth, the legend himself, in the flesh
@@jonathanferguson1211 a small request, if I may, that applies to all videos on this channel.
Please consider raising the volume a bit, as it is considerably lower than the average of TH-cam channels.
Thanks Johan - I did think we'd solved this - is it still the case on the last few? @johanmetreus1268
Really interesting, thanks Christian and team. Those equivalent 2023 prices were interesting to see too.
Would be nice if you could do a follow up video showing the different Marks of BESA that entered service. There is incredibly little information about these great guns out there, especially on video so it would be great to have this missing part of firearms history on film.
Agreed. It is often mentioned in accounts but not shown much in documentaries etc.
I second that! It's a legendary weapon, I'd love to see an overview of an actual piece!
Very interesting, I always wondered why we had this 'odd-one-out' MG in 7.92 Mauser.
Christian is a wonderful presenter. He learned from the master after all!
Hey, they remembered to set up the lighting rig this time.
Also for us non gun nerds: .303 is 7.7mm.
The 303 projectile actually is 7.92 in diameter. The British used the lands of the rifling (the high points) measurement when naming the rifle. The actual projectile is larger because it needs to engage the rifling to impart spin.
The zb53 system of guns utilised a laterally pushed out belt ( imagine a u cross section tube) as compared to the much simpler push through belt of the mg34 mg42, so it was entirely possible to redesign for use for .303 rimmed. However there wasn’t the time for such a conversion so it was decided to use 7.92 instead. These guns were specifically used in tanks and other afvs with a separate logistic system so the special cartridge was acceptable
Very nice pronounciation on "vzor".
Well done presentation, sir. Thank you
The Czechs also adopted it as a Fortress Machine Gun in a twin gun mounting, and in a mixed-arms mounting combined with a 47mm Anti-Tank Gun.
My favourite mudlarker finds _lots_ of fired, 7.92x57mm blank cartridges around one of the Thames/Medway offshore forts. (The other forts are too far offshore for any spent cartridges to be exposed by the tide; this one has a sort of causeway which can be crossed at low tide.) I've always assumed that BESAs must have been mounted against a landing, even if these were anti-aircraft installations. No point in blanks for AA use, though. Could the BESA have been used with a copy of the Czech fortress mount?
It would have made sense to train the gunners at the same time as training commandos who might have to carry out a raid or landing, hence spent blank cartridges like shingle!
@@matthewspencer5086 I'd imagine those 7.92mm cartridges came from guns used in an anti-aircraft role, or perhaps from German aircraft which were strafing the fort.
The Czech Fortress mountings were for fortifications modeled on the Maginot Line, with the fortresses and blockhouses mutually supporting each other, with the machine guns firing along the intervals, the embrasures not directly facing the enemy, where they would be vulnerable to direct fire, but along the line, towards other fortifications within said line.
These mountings were not ready before the fall of Czechoslovakia, and the Germans looted them and placed them in the Westwall, Eastwall and Atlantic Wall. As a result of this I doubt that Britain got hold of any examples to copy. Also, given the nature of the Thames Forts as anti-aircraft batteries, not as -supporting ground fortifications, I doubt they would be able to makes use of the mountings.
@@forcea1454 The 7.92mm cartridges are (fired) rose-crimped blanks and I think made by Radway Green. .303" rounds in the vicinity tend to be live ones dropped by sentries.
Když člověk žije s Pevností Dobrošov "za krkem" a tyhle věci vídám už od dětství...
Interesting design, feels like it wouldn’t be out of place in a sci-fi movie
Maybe it will pop up in Star Wars in the near future.
WoW. I got a flash back to my military service time , while watching this. Finnish Kvkk62 is with almost similar structure. Well it’s basically a vz57 in 7,62x39 and without quick change barrel. Nice presentation in deed.
The Besa - thanks for the presentation.
I appreciate the details that you provided while you did the stripping of the mechanism.
Congratulations for doing a great job.😃
Well done! Good lighting and prepared.
Proud of our czech weapon industry
I am not a gun enthusiast but I have got the impression that, yes, the folk in Czechoslovakia designed excellent guns. I am pleased that the British recognised that, too.
Hey, great presentation! Well explained!
Great content ! Thanks chaps.
0:40 Actually, more like to replace the Schwarzlose 07/12 and 07/24 based heavy machine gun vz. 24 (produced by Zbrojovka Janeček), Cal. 7.92 Mauser. We didn't really use Maxims by then.
The vz. 37 also had a variant with a heavy barrel, smooth on the outside (no ribs), for the use in fortresses and tanks.
I saw utubes "Machine Gun Dad" last June. He told me the smooth shroud version was actually hardened to take ammo hits
In one of the Czechoslovakian reports was mentioned option for to remove trigger group during fire to allow the continues fire during retreating ( from trenches to fortifications ).
Excellent presentation.
Good job Christian. You lucky chap!
The .303 was a rifle round with a rimmed case that could cause feeding issues in a machine gun, though it did work well in some designs, it was not considered ideal. The BESA 7.92mm used a modern "rimless" case that was specifically designed for use in machine guns and semi-automatic weapons.
Vickers,Lewis,Bren,Browning all used .303.
Great video!
Thanks for the insight never was sure why we adopted the besa and not a .303 version. liking the link to other uses other than hand held weapons
Never made any sense to me either, BSA was making the Browning for the RAF in .303. Would have been cheaper and quicker to build and was fine in US tank service and British in lend lease tanks.
One of the other reasons why the 7.92 calibre was kept on was logistics. Tanks were already getting their own specific ammo supply so it wasn't that difficult to supply 7.92 instead of 303
The problem was the supporting infantry was using .303, as it turned out there was no problems suppling both during the war but it really doesn’t make sense.
The infantry were already receiving two incompatible types of .303 in the form of Mk VII ball for rifles and Bren and the heavier Mk VIII for the Vickers. An additional caliber supplied for tanks would not have had as much impact on logistics as it might seem.
Nicely done. :)
Pronunciation nailed. Lovely
Thank you from Amsterdam.
Ive been building a 1/35 scale Churchill tank with scratch built interior, and when it came to the Besa, there were two included in the kit but needed improvement. I became interested while doing research to make the kit part better. It is indeed a most interesting machine gun!
I'm sure Jonathan is a great guy but thank you for the alternative delivery ☺️
A nice beefy little boomstick. Always interesting tearing guns (and other military equipment) apart and see just how simple they are put together, something they of course have to be so they can be service in the filed.
Always wondered why the hugh side plates. Now seeing it disassembled I understand why.
1) Ammunition incompatibility - Don't forget that every Stuart, Grant and Sherman tank plus the Greyhound and Staghound armored cars mounted the M1919A4 and M1919A5 firing the rimless 30-06 cartridge. So Britain was using THREE rifle caliber rounds.
2) At one point in my US Army career, I encountered a ZB-53 ground gun (ie Tripod mounted) that had been "acquired" (CIA?) in Africa in the 1960's.
It even has m-lock slots. Nice.
Great design.
The Cruiser tank A13 and the Matilda I (A11) were equipped with .303 machineguns.
This humble curator might not look like it but he's well 'ard
Jonathan’s had a shave.
As a side note: Here in the USA, I was unsuccessful in locating a live transferable BESA as I owned a Humber armored car at the time that took a BESA. I ended up going with a .303 Browning MKII. The Browning required an adaptor that I still have. Meanwhile, I stumbled on the only BESA I ever came across. This was located at the JM Davis Firearms Museum in Oklahoma.
I have the one Dolf saved from the scrap yard and ERB registered
I wish I had known that some fifteen years ago.
I have not ran across another one on the open market. There are a few transferable ZB's out there don't know if there are any C and R BESA's. This one was in the prior collectors hands a long time. I am having a hard time picturing the belt the 303 used as the 8mm is a straight push through type. We shot a Post ZB at Creek for a long time. Great guns
Interesting!
I appreciate how, for the most part (I suppose this mostly applies for the firearms related stuff tbf), content on this channel treats you like you already have some relevant knowledge. You know your audience, I'd say. I think most museums tend to assume that the audience knows nothing about the subject so as to keep it accessible
i started watching the videos with next to no knowledge but have managed to pick up more and more terminology via osmosis and context, but that's what comes of being interested in something you don't understand; you start to understand it if you are interested enough
Looks to be a very nice gun. Simple, strong, yet rather elegant in design I would say.
I understand there might be a strong desire to fit as much on the screen as possible. At several times during the video the interesting bits were at the bottom of the screen. That gives those of us who depend on closed captioning a poor choice of viewing the details or "listening" to what's being said. Wanted to make you aware that can be an issue
10:50 for example
Quite interesting
Great video- So how come it was not adopted as an infantry weapon? Why did we stick with the heavy water-cooled Vickers? Presumably because of deciding to not go for the .303 version?
It's has tilting bolt but what does the bolt locks into? It can't lock up against the top cover and the receiver is completley open on top. I don't see anywhere where a lock surface could be.
How does this thing work?
On this day in 1939, Czechoslovakia sent a Vz. 38 light tank to UK for evaluation. Didn't adopt that, but adopted the Besa
Sadly far too late for any realistic adoption, even if they’d wanted to. As good as the Vz.38 was, it was very rapidly becoming obsolete as a tank. It was only because the Germans had access to large numbers, and the production line, that they turned it into its various other guises (Hetzer, Grille, Marder III). By the time a production line could have been established in the UK, it would have been at least a year or two later. Also, the UK didn’t really go in for the tank hunter type concepts in the way the Germans did, so it’s unlikely the UK would have found much use for them. A real shame though.
Every day's a schoolday. I simply didn't know the British used the Mauser cartridge in anything.
Of course I'd heard of the Besa, but had assumed it was a .303.
Britain was very seriously looking at swapping to the 8mm mauser cartridge during the early and mid 30's....the No4 Lee Enfield was initially developed with the idea that it would be able to be chambered in 8mm mauser if the decision was taken to swap to that cartridge
So used to Jonathan doing these vids, when it's somebody else my brain goes "You're not my real weapons historian!"
The Czechs certainly knew their craft.
Very interesting to know that some special occasion like this happens in a quite big army like British. If anything, can you make more video on other Vickers MG variants?
Also, if anything, I don't think I quite understand what's the problem with air-cooled Maxim gun for tank. For other use, German did it, Russian did it, British also did it. The only thing I think is the problem is the increase in barrel weight
Firstly Vz 37 was both a general purpose /heavy machine gun and tank machine gun in Czechoslovak service. Czechoslovak AFVs Lt-vs- 34 Lt vs 35 and Lt vs 38 all carried vz 37. The vz 37 was the replacement for Schwarloze -Janeček modification vz.07/24. not for a Maxim or a Vickers -in fact the Czechs continued to use (until the German takeover) a Vickers variant the vz 30 later called MG 30(t) by Germany which was an air cooled Vickers commercial C type as used in aircraft.
The adoption of the BESA as a tank gun was why British armour had flat fronted armour until the end of the war while German, Russian and US designs moved to sloped armour for better protection. The BESA required flat mounting.
why isn't the pistolgrip used as the charging handle more often?
that seems like a Really handy feature....
It's not. It takes the shooter out of the firing position to cock it. The tracks and opening for it get jammed full of dirt. Lastly, the very minor catches can break (especially when everything is jammed with dirt) and render the weapon unusable. It looks kinda cool but is really a poor and impractical design and that's why it died! Ya'll Take Care and be safe, John
Did it use canvas or disintegrating metal belt?
Am I the only one that thinks that looks like a giant version of spas 12
Looks incredibly complicated to machine
Additionally, and critically the armoured corps had their own supply chain in existence so adding a separate calibre of small arms ammunition, while not ideal was not as significant as it would have been for the infantry.
0:41 Was Czechoslovakia such a big user of Maxim guns? I was under the impression that they got a lot of Schwarzlose MGs from the breakup of Austro-Hungary.
2:17 While Darne system seems to be exotic nowadays, it, as far as I get it, provided reliable feeding for rimmed cartridges regardless of the exact position of the machinegun, making it valuable for aircraft and, conversely, anti-aircraft applications, not to mention the indirect fire, which was still very much on the books.
Yes, Czechoslovakia was using Schwarzlose (vz.24), he did say "such as" though.
Hi from Brno :D
What they did from the ZB26 to do this, is kinda like the PK made from a bigger and reverse AK (but with another cartridge)
The Czech & The Belgians are the UK's best weapons designers.. EG: BREN , ZB-53, FN FAL, GPMG, SAW.. & The UK Police use mostly German H&K weapons.
So it's been said that the Besa was such a bulky design that it couldn't be fitted in sloped armour. Is this true ?
i mean.. the only maxim thing we used in CZSK was MG08/15 and that wasent for very long
It's amazing how reliable and accurate the bren gun was with a 30 round box mag in rimmed. 303
Must have been a nightmare getting restocked for the 8mm mauser machine guns and I'm sure they used alot of captured ammunition like what was intended with the sten.
China went as far to produce their own propiatary cartridge so an invading force could not use it instead of pick between 5.45 or 5.56, I think I'm one of they few to fire one and for the barrel length it seems to have alot more flash and recoil that 5.56 maybe 15 to 20 percent more powerful than 5.56 the 05 bullpuo has the safety catch in the worst place but I also got to fire a standard rifle configured the 05 I think it was called, one of the only Millitary arms I know of half designed by a woman.
Now they are replacing most of everything with front line units that looks alot like the new IWI ace assault rifle.
Crazy how a lick of paint and a free float handguard is what makes our SA80 an A3
I'm sure we could have had a good deal from Canada diamco AR rifles or even made our own.
The .303 cartridge was outdated before ww1, personally I find civilian. 303 to be under loaded and you can only reaood the brass a few times, millsuorp can be awful but less rimlock. The P13 was a great mauser action rifle in what would kind of be a hotter version of 7mm mauser with no cordite. If they changed service cartridges after WW1 then we could have potentially had self loaders.
The Russians, most ex Ussr and comblocj nations and Eastern nations seem to be doing just fine with the oldest Millitary cartridge still used the 7.62x54r
I have a martini end feild and SMLE converted to that caliber as in the US it was crazy cheap and by having those rifles with a shot out leed rechambered and abit of the muzzle cut off and recrowned it made them accurate and cheap to shoot.
Kind of ironic how everyone want to go to about. 270 to . 280 I'm pretty sure if British. 270 or. 280 was accepted with the EM2 instead of just cut down 30-06 with advances to the powder, projectile and maybe even case with steel case or part SS base it would probably still be in service.
I think 8mm mauser would make for a GP machine gun cartridge today.
The best machine gun I have shot was the PKM as its so light while the original MG42 is much Niger the 7.62 nato versions are still good.
I think zastava in Serbia may still make their own copy of the MG42 in 8mm mauser.
Poland is desperately trying to convert PKM type MGs to 7.62 nato with mixed results.
No idea why we did not use a 9mm pistol in WW2 as we had the sten, a few penny's more into the sten and it would have been much better even with some plywood / bakelite furniture
The ammunition came up with the armoured logistics supply route as with spares and consumables. I doubt if any captured ammunition was used. No great problem.
@@johnfisk811 I think a big requirement for the stem gun was it was to be in 9mm para rather than .45acp or domestically produced crazy ammo or mauser c96.
If belts where not interchangeable I doubt they would have used captured.
I'm sure the stem used captured MP38/40 9mm in the US I fired a MP40 full auto rental and I was surprised to see it used sten mags and they did not look altered. But the UK did make alot of stens and mags that where outdated at the end of the war to the beautiful Sterling, one of the best open bolt SMGs and in my opinion the best 9mm SMG magazine. The reliability on an open bolt smg is pretty much all based on the mag, if you have good mags and rifled blanks then any small factory could design and crank out a decent smg.
@@luked2767 the British wanted to build the STEN in 9mm for it to be more controllable and for the lighter weight that allowed a soldier to carry a lot more of it.
Ya'll Take Care and be safe, John
@@JohnDoe-pv2iu kind of a mixed bag with pistol calibers .38 webly but could be used with us spec .38, lend lease 1911s and high powers in 9mm then Thompson in .45 and stens in 9mm
Not so many got issued side arms mostly officers I think they went from .455 to .38 to reduce recoil for conscripts.
Ironic how the 1911 .45acp requirements where something like similar ballistics to .455 webly but a little faster.
I think Marlin made an odd SMG that was imported to the UK and it had alot of problems with recivers breaking due to the powder load in British 9mm being hotter then whatever they tested it with. No idea if officers at the time could purchase their own sidearms as at least before and the start of WW1 an officer was expected to purchase his own weapons, the C96 was popular and they would buy more expensive but much nicer in fit finish and accuracy SMLE rifles.
Both of my grandfather's where in WW2 but died before my birth but my great uncle was a conscript and was shipped to sword beach, I asked him what he was armed with he just said a machine gun that he had to wrap and tie a rag around a square of steel with a hole in it as it would cut his hand and uniform...
Royal Armouries slight correction @ approximately the 12:35 mk. Speaking about the 7.92mm cartridge... "...which only have one use, in tanks." The 7.92mm cartridge and the machinegun that used it, were also used in British aircraft.
Refereces, please
The video makes it look like its the size of a M2 .50 BMG.
Forced perspective?
Very big gun?
or
Very small person?
Woosh thats a big boy........
Looks like it could be from Star Wars
Is it true that because this gun needed a flat surface to be mounted on, Britain couldn't design tanks with sloped front armour as it would need a new hull machine gun ?
So where did the British and Commonwealth forces get their 7.92 mauser ammo from ? Sourcing military prototypes from the Czechs and ammo from the continent would have been all very well in 1937 but after the fall of France all those suppliers would have been cut off.
Presumably the small arms committee would have known that was a real possibility, so were there 7.92 mauser production facilities in British territories ?
Another comment in the thread seemed to say there was ONE supplier of 7.92 Mauser in Britain, Kynoch Ammunition (currently headquartered in Mildenhall, Suffolk but originated in Witton, Birmingham). The Wiki article on the company indicates they've been around since 1862.
@@generalilbis a major ammunition maker quite capable of meeting the needs of armoured units and already making the ammunition anyway.
Wonder if many were used on tripods for ground use?
Lots, but not by the British. The Romanians & Yugoslavians had them, many were sold to the Nationalists in China, and they were also widely used by the SS-VT / Waffen SS. One or two other countries also, I think Argentina might have been one.
The 7.92 tank version was capable of being removed from a tank and used by the crew in a ground role. Whether it came with a tripod/bipod, I wouldn't know without getting out my stowage lists/diagrams of Churchill and Cromwell's.
@@joewalker2152 I forgot about that. They may well have carried one. I'm pretty sure some earlier British tanks had one for the Vickers.
Did Britain consider the .303 Browning for tank use, which was being produced for the RAF?
Exactly my thought. The Browning was a very successful gun,and was a much simpler and more compact design.
The answer to that one might be worth a video in itself. The RAF was in the process of adopting the aircraft version of the Browning at about the same time the Army was doing the same with the ZB. The British made Brownings were also made by BSA!
The early A13 tank Mk2 cruiser tank had aluminium road wheels but because of the need of the RAF given priority over that material, the A13 Mk3 Covenanter tank road wheels changed to pressed steel.
Be nice to see its big sister in 15mm.
@bebo4807 aircraft browings very different guns , fast firing, lightweight, etc . If you adapt it enough to make it work you still need a license and it becomes costly
Brits used Lee Enfield .303 rifle amongst others in the 2 wow.
The ammo was made by Kynoch in Britain, only manufacturer. I did not hear it in the video. Marked 1z
Yes. I was waiting to hear something like that too. BTW, using German ammunition would be a thing you'd only do in a dire emergency. Nitrozellulose Gewehrpulver generates different pressures to Cordite. The gun might not work reliably, or be damaged.
Jonathan back on tour with the Darkness?
Hagic hulk though
Ah yes, Father of the Beezer.
I thought this was Matt Lucas in a wig, at first.
They could have just used the Brownimng M1919 like the RAF.
RAD!
Also, the heavy machine gun of Romanian Army in WW2.
I wonder why the Brits did not use .303 Brownings on their tanks as they had domestic licensed production of Browning type guns for the RAF?
That gun was a lightweight machinegun - 10 kg's - and in no way comparable to the BESA in its ability for sustained fire. In an aircraft it might at most fire several hundred rounds and be at altitude in a wind flow to aid in cooling. And then receive much greater TLC than a tank MG would.
Always thought that as well , the Browning was fine in US tank service and British lend lease tanks. I think the BESA was unable to be used with slope armour could be wrong with that fact.
@@cryhavoc999 I mean they could've also bought a license to produce a version suitable for tanks.
@@hendriktonisson2915 Yes totally. Or they could have bought the BESA! The USA in the late 30s was not making many tanks!
@@duanetapp1280 I think its simply that the US tanks came with Browning's and the British tanks came with the BESA!
Two by two hands of blue.
Otherwise a most excellent presentation. :)
I always wondered what Jonathan Ferguson looked like without the beard 🤔
I would love going forward if you guys said how much each gun in your collection cost (if it was paid for) and what the equivalent value is now.
Didn't Peregrine Worsthorne get shot in the the belly by one of these Beeza guns in Cyprus?
The 7.92mm round was pretty close to .303 in diameter. Since 7.92 was belted in the first place, it was no bigger problem than with .303.
Ah yes, a renowned general purpose machine gun of loyal elbonian forces!
Cringe.
Made it in 0.5" calibre as well..
They did. Or rather in 15mm instead of 12.7mm and used it in armoured cars and light tanks.
If only Roland had invented the 303 forty years earlier. We could have blasted the enemy with Aciiiiiied A A. A A Aciiiiiied 🙃🙃🙃🙃
Sound is TOO quiet!
I need 40000000 of those to buy ok
I need 300000 of those to buy ok
Where is Jonathan >:c
Ferguson without beard looks way more younger
This HMG should have replaced the Vickers water-cooled HMG during WWII.
You're not Jonathan!
They were already adopted the .303 Browning for the Air Force, they should have just made heavy-barreled versions for armor. Or armour.
Lightweight fast firing aircraft browings with unusual feeds and pneumatic or solenoid firing is what was being manufactured under license. A heavy barrel alone is not going to make them suitable for tank use.
He literally doesn't say "Beza" until 6:15...
A weapons expert called Wellard, who looks anything but 🤣
lol
This job does not require a body built for cage fighting.
Brno💀