How many ultra-rapid EV chargers do we need?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 พ.ค. 2024
- The UK government expects we need 500,000 EV chargers to meet demand. I'm not so sure. So to find out what's going on, stick around as Dave Takes It On.
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The constant suggestion to just go at a different time to avoid queues suggests that people have that flexibility. If I have a flight or a channel crossing booked, that's when I need to go for. I don't want to be needing to take half or a day off work just to make sure that a fast charger isn't busy. That's a daft idea.
If you're honestly suggesting that we have too many chargers and all we need to do is go at a different time as the solution, then think again. Not everyone is retired or out of work.
Agree completely and EV's are still in a massive minority too! Once that in theory racks up then things will get interesting!
You’re asking the tail to wag the dog. People charge on long journeys, and they’re not willing or usually able to change the times of those long journeys to fit around charger busy periods. We need sufficient chargers to provide the capacity needed at peak times, and it is both necessary and desirable that chargers should sit around idle for most of the day.
Tesla @ Gloucester Services charges 61p off-peak and 75p peak for non-Teslas without membership, not the 30p that you were quoting (check the app). So the existing chargers are better value than Tesla during peak.
Also supermarkets never treated fuel sales as a loss leader - they always made healthy profits right from the start. The reason that they could undercut the majors was that their cost of set-up was lower (just install tanks, pumps and a pay booth on land they already owned or leased) and their operating costs were much lower as they could share staff and management with the adjacent supermarket.
If you are adding over 50kWh at peak, then it is worth buying the membership at Tesla for a month which brings it down to 45p off peak and 55p peak at this location. Each charge after this for the month you are winning.
I just now checked the tesla prices for Gloucester Northbound as follows: (with Membership)
00:00 - 16:00. £0.45p/Kwh
16:00 - 20:00 £0.55p/Kwh. Peak period
20:00 - 00:00. £0.45p/Kwh
Just get the membership if it’s not too far away.
Leaf drivers don't get a choice, Dave. We can't use Tesla SCs!
I don’t think he’s listening - I’ve made that point on other videos.
@@martincharnley6143 "Open to all EVs!"
Not ALL, sadly. :(
You can get an adapter now.
We need 500% more in Northern Ireland and that wouldn't be nearly enough. You have it made in England
Not in England but in London and a few choice areas yes. Parts of England are as sparce as NI. In these areas the DNOs are quoting install dates into the 2030s.
How many petrol stations do we need, well Market Forces and supply and demand will determine that as will the same for EV charge points. Statistics will go a long way towards determining the volumes needed too, for example determine the the number of EV’s, estimate the number capable of HP charging then adjust for charging volumes - that would give a very good estimate.
I think you might be disconnected from the real world Dave, folks are either on long journeys and need charging, anf the infrastructure is dire in the North East.
The other factor here is a lot of EV's are xompnay vehicles, and a lot of the folk you will be seeing at rapid sites during the day will be these folk. And they will be charging it back as expenses, and probably have little motivation to seek out a few pence here or there.
The other is no home charging. Most working folks lives are highly structured, they have work, normally at set times, maybe kids, there lives are driving when they have time to charge, they don't have the luxury of going in the quiet points.
You argue against yourself here. I am trying to help people find cheaper charging. If you have a company car and the company pays the electric you have no interest whatsoever in searching even one second for cheap charging. These videos are not for them. Your time available comment is also specious. There are 168 hours in a week and you need one hour to drive somewhere, charge and return home. Are you truly telling me you cannot rearrange so you get one hour to charge in a whole week? I once worked, you know.
Great video
Going on a trip to wales they need more there Dave when looking at Zapmap
Yes, I agree, Wales is not well served.
I don’t entirely agree with your view on the lack of use of existing chargers. You can’t expect people like me, who can’t charge at home, after a long day at work, to go to an unused charge point at 11pm. We need more sensibly priced chargers, in areas of high EV ownership. I do long journeys here and in Europe,and although the majority of motorways are well served, the availability of chargers in some areas is atrocious.
I'm not sure why there is an assumption that chargers being installed at supermarkets will bring down prices significantly; to do so assumes that supermarkets will take control of the chargers at their sites and will be able to negotiate better prices per kWh for the electricity going through those chargers than other charger providers. If supermarkets did take control of the chargers they could I suppose offer a level of discount that meant there were no profits but the price they have to pay per kWh is still going to be a major factor.
Very good point Dave, there are historical parallels with petrol stations. That includes car technology. In the 1960’s-1980’s most mass market cars would barely exceed 35mpg and their range meant several fill ups if you were going on a long trip. By the 90’s, especially with more cars using diesel, it became possible to go from London to Edinburgh on one tank. Even my 2017 prosaic petrol Astra will cover 500miles before the fuel light guilt trips you into a filling station.
Looking at the pace of battery technology, we are likely to see most new city cars capable of 300 miles of range within 5 years. Family/business cars will certainly be capable of far more and have the technology to charge faster as well.
So you are right, we probably have enough ultra rapid chargers in total. Massive numbers of chargers on motorway service areas is an acceptable waste of money (call it a marketing expense) to cope with the surge in demand on bank holidays etc. But, if like motorway petrol prices this comes at a heavy price penalty, I’m pretty sure, given the advances in battery power density, these will rarely hit more than 80 percent use despite strong growth in EV adoption.
The real issue is having more easily accessible destination chargers and subsidies redirected to solutions for urban streets without off street parking. This is essential if we want EV ownership to work for everyone and not just company/business drivers and the middle classes.
Back of the envelope calculation suggests we need 100,000 rapid chargers. 30 million cars doing an average of 10,000 miles each and 20% of their charging at rapid chargers at an average of 120kW means 5 hours of rapid charge per year per car, or 150 million hours in all. If a rapid charger can be used on average for four hours per day without long queues forming at busy times, that means one charger can do 1,500 hours of charging per year. Divide 150 million by 1,500, and we get 100,000 chargers.
No way the average EV driver with home charging does 20% of their charging at rapid chargers. I do 16k a year and use rapids perhaps 3-5 times a year.
@@TheAegisClaw But when all cars are EVs, a significant proportion won’t have home charging available.
@@TheAegisClaw If you look at the percentage of homes in the UK that don't have access to off street parking and assume that a good many of these will be almost entirely reliant of some form of public charging then the 20% figure may be an underestimate. It will take time though because even once new ICE car sales end there will still be a market for used ICE cars.
@@paulweston1106 Government figures say 44% of homes with cars do not have the ability to charge at home. That could be because they don't have a drive, or like me, are apartments.
@@paulweston1106 I think very few people who can't charge at home will buy an EV. More likely, we have to provide solutions so they can charge at home before they'll consider an EV. That's not beyond the realms of possibility for 95% of people, solutions already exist, we just need them implementing.
The more the merrier.
In my opinion every large 24/7 supermarket should have a bank of 12+ rapid chargers power sharing the incoming electrical supply into the supermarket.
On average you spend an hour doing your weekly shop so it's plenty of time for people to fill up enough energy for the week.
satisfying peak is always the problems with any service I think... is there any info on the busy times ?
We need lamp post chargers for those who live in flats, that will help overnight charging, this will help for staters to stop the supercharger specially being blocked.
They have just completely renewed a petrol station on the A689 near Carlisle and it has opened with new pumps. A BP associated company where the garage was said to be the last before the M6. I wanted to find out if they have EV charging ambitions, there. Not easy unless you go in and ask. The Sainsbury here doesn't have anything going on in relation to charging provision, by the way. Be.ev seem to soon be about to open some at The Dobbies Garden Centre, though InstVolt have chargers very close by and as expensive as they are.
👍yes your on the money with this on BUT as Tony Blair said in May 2007 it's Education, Education, Education but looks like a lot of citizens don't look back and learn buy history and keep doing the same thing . How many pensioners do you see around a supermarket at the weekend?
Here in Northern Ireland you can’t find a charger, but bp pulse are starting to put charges in now and they are not cheap they are very expensive.
I agree that at least here in America we're getting close to having enough Ultra Rapid, or Level 3 and 4 chargers, to accomplish major road trips on major highways. What we still need are more Level 3 and 4 chargers to cover more rural routes. And many, many more Level 2 chargers in hotels. And many, many more Level 1 chargers in long-term airport parking lots. Plus programs and incentives to get Level 2 chargers into all apartment complexes.
The EV experience here in American is already extremely positive for most people, especially if you're like me and own a Tesla and can charge at home. But for those who can't charge at home, or don't have access to the Tesla supercharger network, or who have to road trip often, it's still a bit harder than it needs to be.
For now ...when EVs are only a few %. And, for people with access to Tesla chargers ...
@@johnmorrill5637 It's almost as if they're going to have to build them out and try and stay just ahead of the curve. Similar to every other business in the history of the world.
I don't understand this reasoning. I don't think it makes sense in general terms at the moment.
Surely we need the following categories of public chargers...
* On route chargers: on major routes: fast and plentiful enough to support demand at peak times. (These appear to be the ones you are discussing) people will always want to travel when it's convenient to them which often goes for many people at the same time!
*Destination chargers. Slow, often overnight: Hotels, guest houses, holiday cottages, employee carparks, residential streets.
*Short stay, medium speed say 50kwh: town centre carparks, supermarkets, visitor attractions etc.
No doubt as demand needs mature, the number and locations of chargers will evolve.
Dave we have only 12,000 Rapid & Ultra Rapid chargers for 1 million cars. So if that’s enough now how many will we need when 50% of cars are EVs (20 million) the government reckons 300,000 not 500,000 that was years ago and has been amended.
In the future when more people have BEVs and have home charging then those chargers will become available to be used by family and friends who are visiting. If you drive a BEV and are staying with family/friends who also drive a BEV and have home charging then they will let you use that charger. I know we will. If that journey to see them is shorter than your BEV's range then you won't need public charging at all.
The same principle applies to destination AC chargers at hotels/holiday cottages/amusements parks etc etc
Great points Tim, when everyone you visit has some form of home charging it makes life so much easier
I agree with the general thrust of your argument but your figures for Gloucester services are way off. Tesla prices for non Tesla owners are 61p off peak and 75p peak or you pay £8.99/month for membership and pay 45p off peak and 55p peak. The Swarco chargers are 64p all day so you may end up paying more at Tesla or not getting much of a saving. I have not seen Tesla prices this high in other locations and it is usually true you would get a worthwhile saving with Tesla.
Yes John, my point exactly. I reported 75p for Tesla here and at Frankly Services, but as you say, other Tesla superchargers nearby are much cheaper. It seems Tesla does not like to just open up and smash the competition, this policy has been repeated many times. But also repeated is that Tesla then drops prices, as if to say we gave you a chance. Bristol is now down below 30p, most UK wide are in the 30-40p range and almost none are above 60p peak, literally one or two. I believe this will happen here too. Watch prices drop.
Dave, do you know what is happening with an EV charging network Plugshare. They have had units installed at Dobbies Garden Centres in Shepton Mallet and Cirencester for the past 8 months which have never been commissioned. They have now taken to storing sacks of compost and the like in Frome of them. They look like a company that are not interested in providing the service. What do you think.
Dave you are assuming we are always going in at peak times when you could go at other times but I only use outside chargers on a long journey and that can be very resting .
1:45 the article says 37500 2:26
The apps need to chance to show which chargers near you Will ve off-peak (and likely available) when you get There.
Just about to buy my first electric car… no Tesla supercharger near Filey or the East Coast - I still think we need more.. there are pockets in the Uk where there few chargers… and like you say Dave, some of the non Tesla chargers are out of order too… PS: an you do a video on: can you use a regular electrician to fit a EV charger…??
Dave. Good point. But. Do you have figures on the percentage of the population who can charge at home? Ie how many of the as yet get an EV will need public chargers?
PWC reports that about 80% of current EV owners have access to off street charging and about 60% of all houses also do or could. Zapmap states around 400,000 locations to charge an EV available today, less than 100,000 are rapid and ultra-rapid. That's around 18 million homes. But switch the arrangement. Instead of charging for 6 hours overnight, why not convince your boss to install workplace chargers and charge for 8 hours every day? Many could. NHS workers factory workers, office workers, call centre workers, shop and fast food staff on retail parks and many more.
@@davetakesiton Dave thanks for the figures. So 40% of houses (homes) could not charge an EV. That is high. The problem of work space chargers is the sharing of use. You’d probably need a booking system. My feeling is that providing more low power chargers is preferable to few high speed chargers. Plug in at the start of your shift and 4 -8 hours later move your car. What is the etiquette on charging beyond 80%
As before Market forces will decide how many and where
Tell you what I think. I think nobody should need to use a DC charger unless they're on a road trip.
If you can charge at home and your regular mileage is less than the range of your car, you'll never use a DC charger unless you're going an unusually long way. If you charge at a motorway service station you'll find that pretty much everyone there is doing that. We need a decent number of ultra-rapids at every motorway service station, and on non-motorway trunk roads, to cater for these people.
But if you go off the motorway to charge, you'll find that many of the people charging are treating the charger like a petrol station. They're getting in as much as they can because they can't charge at home. This is far from ideal. It's not so good for the battery. You're going to be struggling when you want to do a balance charge, and maybe not do it. And you're not going to charge to 100%, so you're not getting the benefit of the potential range of your car. And it's EXPENSIVE.
But these cars are parked *somewhere* overnight (or whenever their owners sleep). What I believe we need to concentrate on is installing loads of comparatively cheap AC chargers wherever people park at night, at relatively affordable prices per kwh. Lamp post chargers. Bollard chargers. Posts in residential car parks. Kerbo/Gul-E things for people in terrace houses, so they can use their own electricity. That's going to benefit these owners enormously. No more hanging around a busy Ionity station. Cheaper electricity. 100% every morning if they want it (and with an LFP battery, you do want it). Easy to make sure the pack gets balanced. And no taking up real estate with bays dedicated to charging.
We also need AC posts in car parks where people park during the day for extended periods. If you go a trip that's a bit longer than your range, but you can pick up 50 miles while you're doing your business, that's more convenient and cheaper than making a dedicated stop on the way back. It extends your range significantly. If you're staying in a hotel, it should be absolutely normal to be able to charge on AC overnight.
Get that infrastructure in and all the people who can't charge at home at present will stop clogging up the DC chargers, freeing them up for the genuine long distance traveller. So long as we have enough of these to cope with long-distance demand, even on bank holidays, we should be fine.
The present obsession with ultra-rapid chargers is obscuring all this. Pretty much any driver would prefer overnight charging to visiting a DC charger for their weekly charge. They should have the opportunity.
Agreed. Success will be AC chargers for nearly everyone. Rapid and ultra rapid on road trips, essentially located where people stop for petrol and/or food these days.
There would have to be 2 separate charger plans.
On trunk roads you need rapid chargers every 25 ish miles (ie at every service station) as for how many you need, probably 2 to 3 times as many chargers as there are petrol pumps based upon speed of charging. This might go down over time if truly rapid charging (at petrol filling speeds) ever becomes a thing, but that will be a build down over decades like the loss of petrol stations between the 70s and 2000s.
Then you need urban stations for the 30% of people without off street parking, rapid chargers are probably going to end up at supermarkets for the same reason. but the number of chargers probably wont have to be any higher than the number of petrol pumps they currently have because you are only looking at 1/3 of the number of customers.
Dave, you frequently advocate Tesla v4 chargers for other vehicles but how many of them, if any, have the full infrastructure to support 800v charging yet?
Oh! And how can you locate the v4s and how can you locate 800v compatible V4s?
None at the moment Grant, no Teslas have 800v architecture so it was not included, but they are designated future proof so at some point when demand is there, they will be upgraded. Patience. In the meantime you do get a good speed so have a choice, speed or price
I think the answer lies in detail. You arrive @ Gloucester services at peak time on your way to your holiday. All the Teslas are occupied then you will just pay the higher price. If they are both full I expect u queue for the Teslas as they will theoretically charge faster so the queue will turnover faster.
One problem I have with my ID3 is that it will suggest chargers that are available but will be closed by the time you arrive. One of my regular trips it recommends Dobbies in Leics. They are closed at 6pm but the system isn’t smart enough to know I would arrive too late. 😀
uh? There are chargers at a garden shop parking lot and its closed when the shop is closed!? What kind of stupid thing is that? This should be illegal tbh.
I've been working with the charging database for Norway and probably found one or two locations that were inside a parking garage for a grocery shop. That garage closed at 11pm when the shop closed.
Pretty sure any charging location that ask for funding will have to be open to the public 24/7 here.
Just a thought from someone who cannot charge at home. If I park an EV overnight at a public charger point in a public car park do I have to notify my insurance company that the car is not being kept at home in a locked garage?
With all insurance I would definitely notify them to be safe. Realistically it is probably no worse than visiting family and parking outside their house overnight. Or leaving your car in an airport car park for 2 weeks.
@@davetakesiton Thats probably a good idea. The reason I asked is because someone I know wants to put a charger into a communal parking area that is inside a wooden building, with space for 6 cars. This is the designated parking area for their apartments. Their insurance company have been very unhelpful and said that the communal insurance premium for the building would increase by 200% if the charger was inside the building. If it is installed outside the building then, provided it was more than 50 metres from the main building, it would have no effect on the premium or cover. You have to love how insurance companies will do anything to increase your premium and avoid paying claims.
Yeah but they’re making it so more and more people are comfortable with buying electric. Maybe some will close after a while but the surge in new chargers is needed.
We need data about how many petrol fills happen / car, then we can plan.
It’s possible / probably we have a higher density of chargers / car than we currently need, but as EVs become more normal then that may change quite quickly.
I agree that there are a vast number of chargers already and they are not overwhelmed with use. But and it's a very big but. Thr real problem is "start of the holidays" traffic. Usual days of the year. So thr system needs to cope with surge demand. And only in a few specific locations. Mainly on the motorways or A roads. And at those locations its common to see a few very high power subgle charge units, where far more lower power but multi charger units would be far more appropriate. Insteat of 6x 350 units you could install 12x 175 units all of which could do dual charging if needed so 24 cars rather then just 6. The other side of thr same issue is thr grid connection locally. Its important to have as many slots available based on surge demand rather than a few, speed obsessed chargers that look better on the company marketing. For supermarket or mid town locations 2/4 350 are fine. But for aome locations they are not appropriate at all.
The main reason for the drop in number of petrol stations was improvements in vehicle MPG in the 1970's, from 20-25 mpg to 35-40 mpg which meant more range on a full tank and fewer stops to fill up.
The same will happen with chargers if you have a Nissan leaf with a 26kwh battery and a max charge speed of 50kw you will need to charge more
If you then upgrade to a Tesla with a 85kwh battery and 250kw max charge speed. You will need to charge a third as often and for less than half as long each time.
Not true, Brian, because as the mpg increased so the petrol tanks got smaller. Cars today do a very similar range to when I started driving in the 70s. Then we had poor mpg but huge tanks. Some sports cars even had two tanks.
Chargers everywhere? NO!!. Take the University Of York. They have almost 21,000 students and are proud of their green credentials with five double chargers (I think 22KW units) none of which are available to students. They are reserved for the 5000 staff. In York itself there are 3.5, 7, 12.4, 22, 40, and 50KW chargers which make up the bulk of those available for the 141,000 population. A handful of faster chargers are on the ring road or out of the city all together. There are a few places with paint on the ground for EV charging which remain unchanged for over 8 months. I am not alone in speculating that this is to meet a planning requirement for the facility with no intention of ever actually installing anything.
I might appear that we have too many chargers in certain areas, but the vast majority of EV owners charge at home, so utilisation is not high. However when the charging price comes down to sensible prices (24/7) and EVs can put 200miles in in 10 minutes then people who can’t charge at home will start buying EVs and will use public chargers.
Thanks Dave for rubbing it in that there are probably too many superchargers in your part of the world but try finding a super charger in Plymouth, population 1/4 million, we have no hub, there are a handful of chargers about, whilst Exeter, 40 miles away, has over a hundred for a population that is half of Plymouth.
Still a postcode lottery but slowly evening out. There is a Supercharger planned this year in Plymouth
The fact that the chargers are idle for a long time and then they are busy at peak periods is driven by our lives. If you think people are going to get their working hours staggered or we are going to have alternative bank holidays for holidays to spread the load you are sorely mistaken. Very few people are going to leave their house at 2pm to go and fill up with electrons at a quiet charger and sit there for 30 mins by them selves. I cannot imagine any woman doing this. They would just not feel safe. I could easily imagine people are targeted as they are sat there by themselves in the dark!.
Even at peak times there can be the odd rare queues outside of the petrol station but it takes 5 mins to fill up on petrol (pay at pumps and tap) and what 30 mins to 20-80 an average EV. It would be quicker if people didn't buy crap from the shops insides of the petrol stations!! (rant over).
So no Dave we need more for the time being. Yes a lot of them are going to be Idle. But until EV's can charge at roughly the same speed as a petrol car we are going to need them to get the main stream punter to get one. As you covered in your story as time goes on the number of petrol stations changed. At the start there were none. Then there were local ones then the big companies and supermarkets got involved it's going to be the same for EV chargers as EV technology improves which I feel it will. Batteries will get more power dense charging rates will get faster.
For those who cannot charge at home then Supermarket charging is ideal so you don't have run miles out of your way. You can go shopping and top up at the same time.
They still need to simply payment options. IE universal tippy tap. Manging a multitude of apps is great for an EV-angelist but not for my mum or dad. I like EV's and the next car I get will be a little City hop around as I'm lucky I've got off street parking and enough space to run two cheap cars.
They also need to fix the extortionate pricing. EV's are cheap to run if you can charge from home! at 7p. That's another thing. Getting people to understand all the different tariffs from all the different companies. It will just blow the average persons mind.
It will get better as more and more people get used to it.
Best Regards
Colin.
In the next video Dave will suggest that when you buy an EV it is locked to charge only between certain hours, all EVs will have slightly different hours forcing you to charge only at your allotted time. Problem of charger capacity is solved and EV manufacturers can charge a premium on cars that have their allotted charging times at a reasonable hour; conversely you get a discount on the purchase price on your EV if you don't mind going out to charge at 3.15am every day.
Maybe we will have to have the sort of rationing seen in the US in the 70s during the oil crisis when you can only fill up on your allotted days.
Very well put Colin. Dave is a mile out on this one, I hope that perhaps he'll reconsider from the point of Regular Joe.
@@paulweston1106don't want poor people clogging up the peak hour electrons; important people might want them! 😂
WRONG AGAIN and getting WRONGER ALL THE TIME Petrol was about the same price everywhere. About 7 shillings a gallon. ( 36P) I know as I was Riding a two stroke and half a gallon of jip was 18 pence. I also worked part time in a small filling station during the three day week and power cuts, it was always busy. We filled them up. (no self service) Self Service and Supermarkets killed off the little guy and once he was out the way stuffed up prices. This will happen with EVS
Friends of mine keep saying "when the charging infrastructure is better". I point out that 2-3 years ago services were often 2 chargers, now many can be 10, 20 or even 30. The infrastructure has grown rapidly and now I think it is more the destination chargers that are needed. Modern EV's that reach 80% in around 20-25 minutes, are now too quick to grab food and drink.
Many places like cinemas, shopping centres and other visitor attractions that will be 3 to 5 hours could easily be catered for by use of 11kWh chargers and have many of them. Leave the rapid ones for those in a rush.
So true! I pulled into one in France last week and although it was a v3 charger, the charger was only delivery 36kW. I contemplated moving the car to try another but then did a quick mental sum and figured i'd leave it. We then had a nice leisurely lunch at a French restaurant, outside in the sun. Got back as the car was finishing 50 mins or so later.
Quite right, you don't have to stand and watch it charge. I don't understand why people think you need to.
Just plug in and go and live your life @@djtaylorutube
I am getting my 1st EV car next month
I live in Pontefract but have a static caravan in Scarborough. Looking around the East Coast area rows of rapid chargers are nowhere to be seen. So we haven't got too many we haven't got any. This is a huge holiday area and we also need to charge. The few in Scarborough are in car parks so you have to pay parking charges as well. HELP!!
Look first to the humble 3 pin plug at your caravan. Last summer I stayed at a caravan in Norfolk and several Teslas were plugged in all day the car was there. If it is always plugged in you will get quite a hefty charge and it might be at 27p. After that the North East is very poorly served but the situation is changing rapidly. Massive supercharger going in at Hull this year. It's a case of make do and mend while infrastructure catches up
@davetakesiton Thank you for your reply Dave. I have just checked and the caravan electric rate is 26p. We have a home charger so we should be OK along with your idea of the 3 pin plug charge. It's all a bit new but I am feeling happier now and looking forward to our EV adventures.
UK in general is miles behind, if you go to Europe they are million miles ahead of us, you have ultra rapid charging everywhere, Tesla have nearly most of the chargers open to non Tesla’s, if you look at the ionity map in France compared to the Uk you will see what I mean
You confuse numbers with locations. Check how many Gridserve are in France - zero. That's because they are British, like Ionity is European and Fastned are Dutch. Of course they will have more than us in Europe
@@davetakesiton I was referring to the infrastructure in general I travel to south of France every year and they are miles ahead of the uk, you have to agree to that, we are slowly getting there but still a long way to go, I have an I4 I used Ionity via the Elli card, but the cost of that now compared to the Tesla app, the only issue I have with the Tesla chargers is they prioritise Tesla cars over non Tesla what I agree with, but if you go to a 12 Bay Tesla and have 8 Tesla you are looking at a long charge time for a non Tesla
One for each car installed at home and 10p per KWh. Well you did ask 😂😂
Love your optimism, I did ask
Twenty million Ionity/BP pulse/Gridserve/Podpoint/Instavolt/Charge Scotland etc etc chargers or just four Tesla V4 chargers……..
Nissan need to offer an adapter or upgrade path to replace Chademo.
They are available now, but not from Nissan. I keep seeing references to them, but I can't recall who does them....
When we have “pre-charged” EVs, the ones with a 100,000 mile range we won’t need any chargers.
I totally agree with you Dave with a utilisation of 7% a day they make no financial sense . The sooner our government wakes up and stops blowing our tax payers money on this vanity project the better.
Funny but most of the time I drive by a petrol station, especial after hours, I don't see much usage either.
@@Tom-dt4ic but they don’t ask for tax payers to pay for them. The reason there are so many chargers is not because of demand. Once the subsidies have gone the covers will go on.
Fuel excise duty contributes 23 billion pounds in the uk . EV chargers so far have drained the country of £4 billion.
@@tobycolin6271 In the words of Edmond Blackadder, in a heavy sigh of impatience; “Well, possibly.” !
The usual, either, ignorance or ignoring / deliberate avoidance. If the U.K. government have subsidised the transition to EVs to the tune of £4 billion so far (over what time span?) The fossil fuel industry “drains the country “ to the tune of, at least £13.6 billion PER YEAR!
“The offshore oil industry pays little tax because they receive very large tax breaks, including to fund the decommissioning of rigs and pipelines, and for further exploration. The UK’s domestic fossil fuel subsidies are estimated at £13.6 billion a year, most of this as tax reductions.”
“the UK has one of the lowest tax rates on offshore oil and gas profits in the world, with the Treasury receiving less than $2 a barrel in 2019 compared to the nearly $22 for every barrel in Norway.”
“Shell and BP paid no corporation tax or production levies on North Sea oil operations between 2018 and 2020, while claiming tax reliefs of nearly £400m”. The UK Government put a temporary Energy Profits tax but this allows an 80% exemption for companies that invest in further oil and gas exploration and production,
The government has lost over £18 billion- by giving up to a 70% tax break to the industry for decommissioning work of North Sea infrastructure.
“The UK government has given £20bn more in support to fossil fuel producers than those of renewables since 2015, the Guardian can reveal.
The research, commissioned by the Lib Dems, found that while renewable energy was given £60bn in support over that time, fossil fuel companies were given close to £80bn.
So, your dino juice isn’t quite so free and lucrative as you suggest.
@@tobycolin6271 In the words of Edmond Blackadder, in a heavy sigh of impatience; “Well, possibly.” !
The usual, either, ignorance or ignoring / deliberate avoidance. If the U.K. government have subsidised the transition to EVs to the tune of £4 billion so far (over what time span?) The fossil fuel industry “drains the country “ to the tune of, at least £13.6 billion PER YEAR!
“The offshore oil industry pays little tax because they receive very large tax breaks, including to fund the decommissioning of rigs and pipelines, and for further exploration. The UK’s domestic fossil fuel subsidies are estimated at £13.6 billion a year, most of this as tax reductions.”
“the UK has one of the lowest tax rates on offshore oil and gas profits in the world, with the Treasury receiving less than $2 a barrel in 2019 compared to the nearly $22 for every barrel in Norway.”
“Shell and BP paid no corporation tax or production levies on North Sea oil operations between 2018 and 2020, while claiming tax reliefs of nearly £400m”. The UK Government put a temporary Energy Profits tax but this allows an 80% exemption for companies that invest in further oil and gas exploration and production,
The government has lost over £18 billion- by giving up to a 70% tax break to the industry for decommissioning work of North Sea infrastructure.
“The UK government has given £20bn more in support to fossil fuel producers than those of renewables since 2015, the Guardian can reveal.
The research, commissioned by the Lib Dems, found that while renewable energy was given £60bn in support over that time, fossil fuel companies were given close to £80bn.”
So, your dino juice isn’t quite so free and lucrative as you suggest.
@@tobycolin6271
In the words of Edmond Blackadder, in a heavy sigh of impatience; “Well, possibly.” !
The usual, either, ignorance or ignoring / deliberate avoidance. If the U.K. government have subsidised the transition to EVs to the tune of £4 billion so far (over what time span?) The fossil fuel industry “drains the country “ to the tune of, at least £13.6 billion PER YEAR!
“The offshore oil industry pays little tax because they receive very large tax breaks, including to fund the decommissioning of rigs and pipelines, and for further exploration. The UK’s domestic fossil fuel subsidies are estimated at £13.6 billion a year, most of this as tax reductions.”
“the UK has one of the lowest tax rates on offshore oil and gas profits in the world, with the Treasury receiving less than $2 a barrel in 2019 compared to the nearly $22 for every barrel in Norway.”
“Shell and BP paid no corporation tax or production levies on North Sea oil operations between 2018 and 2020, while claiming tax reliefs of nearly £400m”. The UK Government put a temporary Energy Profits tax but this allows an 80% exemption for companies that invest in further oil and gas exploration and production,
The government has lost over £18 billion- by giving up to a 70% tax break to the industry for decommissioning work of North Sea infrastructure.
“The UK government has given £20bn more in support to fossil fuel producers than those of renewables since 2015, the Guardian can reveal.
The research, commissioned by the Lib Dems, found that while renewable energy was given £60bn in support over that time, fossil fuel companies were given close to £80bn.
So, your dino juice isn’t quite so free and lucrative as you suggest.
We need cheaper AC chargers too
We are trying to encourage people out of ICE cars. They are not going to be convinced by your argument of just go at another time. The most vehement never EV haters are the way they are because they don't want to change they want to fill up in the places they are at when they are at them. If all they see are queues of EV's waiting to charge they won't switch. We need rows and rows and rows of empty EV chargers in all the places these people drive so they start to realize charging is not an issue.
With the new solid batteries coming down the line with 600 mile ranges and 10 minute charge times lack of EV chargers will be the last bastion of anti EV bigotry we need to overcome(apart from they all catch fire and explode all the time).
This may mean we need to pay a bit over the odds for charging in the short to medium term to support these under utilized networks but in the long term it will mean cheap high availability charging for those of us in the know and willing to be a bit flexible.
I'd suggest heading to somewhere like Cobham serivces on a bank holiday weekend and look at how busy that is. If it was just as easy as driving at a different time why do people swamp the M25 and it's service stations all day?
So your answer is if we see a short queue outside McDonalds is to build several more next door until the queues disappear? sounds sane to me
@@davetakesiton My nearest town has 3 McDonalds within 5 miles of each other, you will see KFC, Burger King, and McDonalds right next to each other all the time. To quote Ray Liotta if you build it they will come. We would not be building anything that won't be used eventually. You could deploy 10 times the chargers we have now and when every car is an EV there would still be queues at peak times on busy routes. Remember you are not necessarily dealing with rational people but you can't reason people out of a position they weren't reasoned in to. If everybody made rational informed opinions we would have all been in EV's decades ago.
Another way to think of it is think of these EV chargers is as advertising that generates income. If someone see's Gridserve chargers at every services and they never see queues guess what they will go and use Gridserve chargers it might even convince more people to switch to EV. People still stop for fuel on the motorway despite knowing how much more expensive it is.
So yes we would be deploying more chargers than we need now but supply would drive demand.
We may have enough today with only a million EVs on the road but what about when we have 2 million then 5 million and by 2030 or 2035 20 million. I’m sorry but the 300,000 not 500,000 the government says we need will be nowhere near enough.😢
How then do 35 million cars manage on 8,000 petrol stations?? Modern EV takes 10 minutes charge time, petrol 5 minutes filling time !
It's an interesting question. Most people will do most charging at home but the problem is at Christmas or Easter or start of school holidays. It's a surge charge problem. Day to day charging is not as big as people think.
The problem is more at the services where people who don't rapid very often will go while on a long trip. And those locations are obsessed with 350+ kWh single charge units where 3 times more 100kwh are far more important. Right charger right location.
@@davetakesiton there are 8 ISH pumps per station. So around 64k pumps. There are any number of sub 100kwh cars on sale at the moment. Everything Stellantis for instance is pretty much that so 30 mins per stop. So you would need (envelope calculation) three times the petrol number so 192k chargers, but most won't need any as the range is greater than the journey, so say 100k rapids. But that's location specific and event specifics. The services will need waaayyy more but an average town won't need many more because of driveway charging. So we are approaching the big number but we have become obsessed with the wrong chargers. For the services anything above 100kwh is pointless as surge capacity is vital as is the need to allow the services to encourage you to stop for their facilities, which at surge times there will be lengthy queues, so causing issues with cars stuck on the unit while the people are stuck themselves in a queue for some food.
@@davetakesiton how many dispensers are there?
As of April 2024, there are 11,924 rapid or ultra-rapid charging devices, across 5,287 charging locations in the UK.
@@patrickjr11 so we will need 5 x more chargers when we hit peek EV?
Wait, wait, wait.... are you trying to say all EV owners don't all collectively charge their cars at 7:30 pm on Tuesday so they can ceash the power grid? Because thats what i keep hearing on anti ev propaganda shows lol.
This is the bit the anti-EV mob just don't "get". You'd have to be bat-sh t crazy to start charging at 7.30pm if you had an off peak tariff......