I talked to my bishop just last Sunday, and told him I was "struggling" with the church. One of my biggest problems is the rock in the hat. He knew nothing about it. Said it was the Urrim and Thummim. Or however it's spelled. I told him that in fact it was a rock in his hat. Also let him know I didn't believe there were elephants on these continents during the time period of the BoM. He didn't know about that either. Really? It's becoming clearer to me all the time that those who hold fastest to their religion, know very little about it. My wife is really having a hard time with my new-found knowledge. She doesn't want to know anything about it, and she's letting it tear her apart.
R B I can't imagine the struggle people leaving or questioning a long held conception about Mormonism face. I was never in such a group but my heart goes out to you and your wife. I hope you find answers and can cope with the feelings that come with that. I'm agnostic but have never ridiculed anyone for their religious beliefs. Take care.
I don't know how long you've been a Mormon, but you have wasted your time. You never even bothered to get a real testimony and are confused by this well known information that you should have known about and resolved a long time ago. But no...Please leave on your own so we don't have to throw you out.
John Lee, you are a perfect example for the church. Don't believe the teachings? You must be confused, or misled. You never really believed. Should have found out about the contradictions, and lies long ago. The lies the church tells, and the misinformation they feed its members. You don't know a thing about me. I've done more public speaking, firesides, church meetings, stake conferences, than anyone I know. Yes, the testimony. How did Oaks put it? Tell people you believe it, even when you don't, that way you will believe it, and be able to tell more people about it. It's a cult dude. You don't see it, because you are a victim of it. So was I. You say you would throw me out? Is that what your precious apostles teach? I feel sorry for you, because like I said, you are a victim. But on a personal level. Eat shit.
Your laziness doesn't equate to deception, lies or obfuscation...it only spotlights your laziness and a desire to be free of accountability. Always glad to see the dross and offal move out. We're stronger for it. Have fun in the wilderness.
Did you read what I said? Are you too stupid to understand it? I was a member of your cult for over 40 years. Spoke to thousands of people about the "truth" of the church. THOUSANDS. Laziness? Lies? Obfuscation? Those are the tactics of the church. Not me. Dross, offal? I am leaving, but it doesn't make you stronger, or your church any more true. Or true at all. Desire to be free of accountability? Of course. You saw through me. Keep your fake Book of Abraham. The fraudulent teachings of the Book of Mormon. See you at the opening of the Book of Mormon Archaeology Museum. You know, that empty building, with no artifacts. Empty.
I consider the Mormon faith to be complete and utter nonsense, but I'm fascinated by the historical aspect of it all. The office where I work is just minutes away from the Kirtland Temple and I've developed an odd obsession with the kookiness of this cult. Great job on this series. It's obvious you put a tremendous amount of research and work into it.
Millions believed in Hitler. Millions more in Hirohito and not to mention Mussolini. Humans have an intrinsic need to be protected. To be part of something they perceive to be greater than themselves. Throw in the topics of salvation and Jesus…after this life and you’ve got a recipe for
There’s something to it all I think. A lot of nonsense ; but the esotericism is appealing. Some truth and some garbage. Idk. I’m a Catholic. Helps me consider things about my own faith as well, and strengthen it as well. However LDS is truly a endlessly fascinating topic and a they are a lovely People who I have a lot of respect for.
I’ll never forget when a devout Mormon I went to school with reached out to me a few years later asking about me leaving the church, and how he had finally understood why. It was scary for him as his family essentially ostracized him but he is much happier and in a happier marriage.
After reading the Book of Mormon years ago, and being totally dumbfounded by the whole book, I have had an interest in the topic. I have a hard time with the major changes of every aspect of this so called religion since it's inception. I used to joke I could write a text about fairies and get people to believe it. Now I am convinced that this idea is actually plausible.
Be sure to start 9\10ths of every sentence with 'and' include 'come to pass' an average of 10 times per page, and over use 'beheld' and 'behold' every time someone speaks. Tryith to writith shiteth liketh thisis. You can't fail. Perhaps use an illiterate person to narrate story. Worked with Mohammed and Joseph smith.
Great video Dan...I know that you approach your work as a historian. It is great to get information that is true and clear amongst all the Mormon lies and hysteria.
hi Dan! I just wanted to drop you a line and say I've watched all your videos so far and have learned a lot about this history. this isn't the kind of thing you learn in Chapel mormonism. Even though you are an unbeliever I like how you present your videos and show your sources. it's hard to find information about Mormon history without the presenter trying to mock or belittle it and you don't do that. rather you politely want to give your viewers an education. please keep up the good work and I hope to see more videos.
This is excellent work Dan! I never knew the fact that the story about the spectacles or urim and thummim came after the fact and was not originally included with Joseph's narrative until presented by someone else. Thank you for continuously sharing factual information.
It's too bad that JFK came along and we all abandoned hats - otherwise lots of people could be rich from finding buried treasure and forgotten religions.
So there was no need at all for the "golden plates" ! According to this story, Joseph Smith did NOT translate from the plates, but from a stone in his hat. Why, then, did the angel "Moroni" keep Joseph Smith waiting 4 years or so before showing him where the "golden plates" were buried so that the history could be related and made public? Honestly, the whole thing becomes (with apologies to Lewis Carroll) "curioser and curioser".
Nice job exposing Smith's con. This video captures my first encounter with LDS where they showed me pictures of JS studiously examining the plates as if he were really on a mission from God. Glad to be out of that lier's club.
Dan you have blown my mind! I have always wondered why Joseph decided to include glasses. It makes sense now that I know that he had prior conversations where he told others that he saw glasses with the plates. Thank you for your research
I’m glad the light has been shined on the deception. So many innocent people have dedicated their entire lives to a false gospel. It is devastating for them. I think many find it easier to stay in the deception. These people are victims. Please pray for them.
It’s so refreshing to hear a facts based approach to lay down the truth of things as they actually were, as opposed to a twisted presentation of them to deceive upright people.
The Persecuted the tools of divination are to never be used. God condemns it and would never bring forth a prophet to speak to the people that uses them.
Thank you for sorting this out, Dan. Sadly, It proves that Joseph Smith felt no compunction to be honest or consistent about the method/s that he used to produce the Book of Mormon. Were his results real and were he a scrupulous conduit through which God chose to work, Smith would not have backed away from his methods or betrayed the authenticity of his process. Rather, he would have let them stand as originally described and corroborated by witnesses. Smith's subsequent overwriting and adjustments to his story for the sake of optics make it clear that the "translation" process was ever only a show designed to impress an audience. That is why it could be rewritten for a changing audience. All of this is evidence of Smith's pattern of obfuscation with regard to a great many aspects of his life and mission. Eventually, every student of that history comes to realize that he is on a fool's errand trying to give the benefit of the doubt to so many inconsistencies. At that point, it is clear that the only consistent explanation of his actions is that Smith was conning people for his own benefit.
Hi Dan. You seem to dismiss the accounts of the spectacles being used in a hat. I disagree. The 1870 account (reminiscences from 1830) that you published in Early Mormon Documents Vol 1, pp 462-463 indicates that Joseph Smith Sr. said that the spectacles only worked when put in the dark: "Put it on your face, and put your face in a skin, and you will see what it is.” But the spectacles by most accounts would have been about 8" or more across. Most hats aren't more than 7.25" in diameter, so the spectacles would not have been able to lie flat in the hat. This is why Joseph would have had to take out a lens and place a single lens in the hat. That must have been a bit of a pain (and made the glasses seem less magical without the frame) which could have been a motivation to switching to his own seer stone. Anyhow, that's my theory.
The early accounts mentioning the spectacles in the hat come from Harris, who, in more reliable sources, said it was the dark-colored seer stone. He even switched the stone. These newspaper accounts said it was the spectacles, not one of the stones. I think it is a simple matter of an outsider being confused when first hearing the story of the plates and spectacles and then being told about JS putting a stone in a hat and conflating them.
Right,now we have magic glasses,and that’s as well as the hat.come on.I swear I am completely sure that the Church is a farce.And that’s after being a member over 40 years.What an idiot I was..🌹
It is very worrisome that all the young people are getting trapped in that Mormon mess. Everything that was happening at the time. How could people not know it's rediculace.
I think Smith may have originally had full sized pages to dictate from, which needed an inconvenient curtain to cover what he was doing. Over time he experimented either with cutting the pages in half, or rewriting the day's text on smaller bits of paper that he could leaf through inside his hat. When Smith didn't have time to rewrite or cut the pages, he would need the full curtain to cover his activities. That's how I read the situation.
Dan, Regarding the 1838 account, notice that the original phrase Smith used was: "there were two stones in silver bows and these PUT IN to a breast plate constituted what is called the Urim & Thummin." This was crossed out and replaced with "fastened." I just noticed it and thought you might find it interesting. www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-a-1-23-december-1805-30-august-1834/5
I think its convenient that we don't have the 'urim and thummim' (spectacles) to prove their existence,...but we have a 'peep-stone' found from a well dig.
Hi Vogel. In reference to D&C 3:15, "For thou hast suffered the counsil of thy director to be trampled upon from the beginning", I realised that while the spectacles were not in any way trampled during the period when Joseph supposedly used them, the seer stones were reported to have been swapped out by Martin Harris as a test of Joseph's divine claims since the beginning of the time when Martin Harris was scribe. Would that not create a stronger link between the director and the seer stones? Or am I interpreting it out of context? I'd like to know your opinion on this.
The earliest version of the revelation reads "directors" and it was prior to losing the spectacles after the loss of the 116-page manuscript. The trampling partly at least refers to the three times JS asked God t let Harris take the manuscript.
@@danvogel6802 Thanks for clarifying. If the "directors" is referring to the spectacles and not the seer stone due to the plurality of the word & how the spectacles were usually described as being two transparent stones, wouldn't that mean that Elizabeth Ann was referring to the seer stone when she described it as a "director"?
@@Sly_Spy JS only used the seer stone at the Whitmer residence since it was June 1829 and the spectacles were supposedly taken in 1828. The revelation may have been referring to both seer stones and spectacles.
Interesting that the church finally published pictures of the seer stone this past week. I agree with Mr. Vogel that witnesses who spoke of a urim and thummim, were speaking long after the fact. The urim and thummim wasn't even mentioned until 4 years later.
Never figured out why God didnt put the gold plates in English so as to avoid a lengthy translation process fraught with possible translation errors....
How about some discussion of Smith’s interpretation of Christ’s doctrine as presented in the book, rather than endless criticisms about the allegory that Smith presented on how the book came about?
@@danvogel6802 Consider this quote: “Br. Joseph Smith jr. said that it was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the book of Mormon, & also said that it was not expedient for him to relate these things &c”. (General Conference Minutes, 1831). However, Smith did create an evolving allegory of how the book came about so as to satisfy curiosity and to act as a device to stimulate interest among Bible-believing Christians. Smith did this so that they might consider his interpretation of Christ’s doctrine as presented in his book.
Appreciate this Mr Vogel. Can’t help thinking that if only these purported ancient Hebrews in America had only written in good ol’ mundane Hebrew, the whole translation process would have been considerably less supernatural and bizarre. No need for weird granny glasses and a metal vest, or indeed a rock and a hat!
The Smiths were into the occult and magic Glass looking is divination with is an abomination to God . Deuteronomy 18:10-11 Another words Joseph dictation didn't come from God Why would God allow divination when he said it was abomination ?
All of these facts are well documented. But hidden by LDS leadership, who told members fabricated lofty tales of Smith. The lies, polygamous practices and corruption of Mormon origins has only recently come to light, revealing the true nature of Smith and the LDS church. ,
The story includes this "seer stone," but I think even that may be a story. The book may have been composed by several people conspiring. Those upstate New York winters were long. Plenty of time to make up a book and a religion.
I worked with a man who was a self-righteous evangelizing mormon, which I found most uncomfortable. One day I took in some Rune Stones, which are an ancient device for fortune-telling. He really didn't like being near them but he did ask me how they were used, I told him that you put them in a hat and then pushed your face into the hat so that all light was blocked out and then words would appear on the stones. He then told me that such a practice was was at best superstitious nonsense, possibly witchcraft, but probably was the work of Satan. When I told him that his beloved BOM was translated that way he got furious, as even though he is a "priest" in the cult of mormon he had always been told that the gold plates were read and translated by Joseph Smith. He did a bit of a google search and found out the truth, then came up with the excuse that to tell the truth at the time of them being translated would have been beyond the understanding of most people and JS would not have been believed. A definite sign of being a victim of the BITE method of cult control.
I’m studying Mormonism but not a believer in it, I studied with two young men a few years ago and I shut them down I was not rude with them but just asked them questions and tried to work in the Bible but they wanted to stay in the BoM. I’ve prayed that they have turned away from Mormonism.
Thank you for this video. I am now fully convinced of the reasons for my original sense of discomfort regarding the history and teachings of the Morman faith. I am saddened by the realization that so so many have accepted and been led to believe these false teachings. These teachings reek of the occult and mysticism. Lord Jesus, open their hearts and minds so that they may come to know your truths only. Amen.
Poor Dan. He I can’t see the forest through the trees. Please do your next video on how Moses actually had a Walkingstick and not a staff, which, of course, negates the miracle of the parting of the sea.
I was born and raised in Rockford, Illinois and used to find ancient objects all over that place. I later became a Mormon and had the chance to view a large, flat stone that looked smooth with slight ridges and curves. When asked if I saw anything, I replied a nation at war. I could see the season, location, and the very people in a large war. Had I magnified the stone with a stable breastplate and magnified glasses set at a certain distance, it would had appeared in 3d setting that would illuminate the scribed setting and offered a much finer explanation. Very simple but it was also very spiritual. I believe the Lord offers certain ways to receive these sacred history settings, by means of seeing the way they had to make the plates, and thereby be able to interpret. There is a temporal side and spiritual side to this experience. I would had never known had I not viewed it with my own eyes.
I've been re-reading No Man Knows My History lately, so I thought I would also revisit some of these videos. Frankly, some of this stuff I find funny. Not in a mean way; it's just funny. Elaborately duping his friends and family like that... You have to wonder if Smith was secretly laughing at everyone. How could he not have been? I start to wonder how people could possibly have fallen for such things back then, but then I remember the church is still going strong with wealth totaling a hundred billion dollars, and that some of my family take it more seriously than anything else in life. (I know my grandma scoffs at Scientology, and I have seen an interview with one of the modern apostles in which he does the same. They have no room to, really...)
+GuerillaGary OK, according to you he was hiding several books in that hat. How big was that hat, did it have a table to hold those books, did the hat also have a lantern so that he could read them -- or did it have a window. Witnesses say that he covered his fact over the hat, so how did he turn the pages? That was a very special hat, especially since nobody noticed anything unusual about it.
Appreciate the quality information here provided. Since my blog, ('Fayette/Westmoreland Forgotten History dot com') relates regional historical subject matter from southwestern Pennsylvania, I had covered the basic story of Mormonism's origins along with the many inconsistencies on my blog post. Thanks for dealing closely with factual observations!
The new narrative is that JS used a seer stone in a top hat. He then buried his face into the hat and translated to the scribe. This can be found in one of the gospel topics essays on the church web site.
It boils down to did Joseph Smith translate by the gift and power of God? I have read the Book of Mormon many times and each time it brings me closer to God and testifies to me that Jesus is the Saviour. I love this book. I believe that someday we will know exactly how the translation was done. It does not matter really. We do not have all the facts. What we do have is the book and it teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ.
33sylvia33 wrote: What we do have is the book and it teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ ============================================ Something that is interesting and no many people realized how the Mormon doctrine contradict with Christianity. I'm talking the steps or the spiritual progress that the Mormon church offer to people, and there is the BIG EVIL, let me explain how I think the Mormon gospel is very much against Christianity. Mormons missionaries, find people and the most important message they need to share with new investigators is the Joseph Smith's First Vision and the Book of Mormon, IS NOT about accepting christ their main message, is the restoration of the gospel, restoration of the priesthood, they claims that only the Mormon church have the power and authority to act in the name of god. Then people accept those doctrines and of course missionaries teach people that jesus is our savior, yes, they do, then they become members of the church, they accept the First Vision, the book of Mormon and jesus as their saviors and they go to church and etc, etc, and they are happy forever, NOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HERE IS THE CLEVER SCAM!!! Here come the EVIL that no many people see. If you really want to be SAVED and exalted and be in a celestial kingdom for eternity, guess what??????? you wont get there by ONLY ACCEPTING CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR, right there is the ABOMINATION, you would have to go to the temple the rest of your mortal live and practice all those Masonic rituals again and again to be ready to be exalted and become god, AND THERE IS THE BIG UGLY SCAM of the only true church, to be able to go to the temple you need to be WORTHY, and ONE OF THE MOST important requirement to be worthy, is TO PAY YOUR 10% TITHING to the church every month, and how they do this? the process is that bishops and stake presidents interview people to know if they are worthy to go to the temple, there is a list a things you need to obey to get your Mormon temple membership card, and the 10% of your monthly income is one of them, YOU SEE, jesus IS NOT the way, is THE TEMPLE, and that scripture in: Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. You see, the Mormon church claims that an angel from heaven gave Joseph Smith the location of the golden plates, from which the Book of Mormon came, and my friends, this Mormon gospel is VERY different and strange compare to any christian religion, and that scripture in Galatians 1:8 condemn the Mormon church and their CLEVER SCAM. I was a Mormon for 32 years, I don't hate Mormons or the leaders, I feel that is my duty to do what I can to share my experience and expose this scam.
That is not my experience. Everything in the temple is symbolic of and points to the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon testifies of Jesus Christ. Listen to the prophet and apostles speak and compare . These are men of God. We do believe in grace. We believe that men will be held accountable for their actions.
I agree. We do believe in grace and that we will be held accountable. There is no Big evil or Scam at all. We love the Lord our Savior Jesus Christ. We believe he is at the helm.
Lindsey Phillips teaches the gospel of jesus???? for sure is the Mormon jesus, think for a minute, please? do you really think that the real jesus would be involve in interviewing people and giving them a membership card only after members pay that precious 10% to permit members to enter those millions of dollars building call "temples? To believe that a doctrine like that is accepted by god is such offense to any rational person, and I will never stop saying this: INDOCTRINATION CONVINCE PEOPLE TO BELIEVE SUCH A PRACTICE. Because that indoctrination, of course you will never question why ALL CHURCH LEADERS exhort people over and over, to pay that 10% tithing, AND IT GET WORSE, I heard from church leaders for 32 years that any faithful member "FIRST" would pay the 10% tithing to the church from their income, and then they should pay the mortgage, utilities, etc,etc, of course the church leaders say, "first pay the 10% to the lord", of course, the Mormon lord.
I believe that the insanity of the spectacles joined to the breastplate, originates as a misunderstanding of a not very clear verse of the bible. Exodus 28:30 describes the Urim and Thummim as being "in" the breastplate of the High Priest. 30 "In the breastpiece of judgment you shall put the Urim and the Thummim, and they shall be on Aaron’s heart when he goes in before the Lord; thus Aaron shall bear the judgment of the Israelites on his heart before the Lord continually." Most modern historians think that Urim and Thummim were two stones used in cleromancy, identical in shape and texture but perhaps of different colours, which were tucked into a kind of pouch behind the breastplate. When the priest desired an answer from YHWH, he would probably mutter a prayer and then dip his hand into the pouch. Since the stones were identical to the touch, the priest could draw out one stone at random. The Urim may have been black, and signified No. The Thummim may have been white, and signified Yes. This was the indication of the will of YHWH. In the 1830s I don't think people understood these passages. Therefore in Mormonism, Smith and co tried to interpret the idea of the Urim and Thummim being two stones used to determine the will of God, and "in" a breastplate. This becomes the insanity of two stones wrapped in spectacle frames and attached by a rod to the breastplate to suspend them in front of the face! When not in use, the spectacles could be twisted on the rod into a kind of breast pocket in the front of the armour. You can see how this can come out of a misunderstanding of Exodus 28:30.
Mosiah 8:13 tells of a man who can translate ancient records using interpreters. No man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for what he ought not and should perish. Ether 3:23-24 tells how words were written in a confounded language and the Lord gave the brother of Jared two stones that He would cause to magnify the eyes of men at a later time so they could interpret those writings. That is the interpreters in Mosiah. Mosiah 28:20 tells how those interpreters are to be handed down from one generation to another. Moroni was the final heir and deposited those interpreters with the gold plates. So the interpreters were handed down through generations beginning soon after the tower of Babel, extending over a period of about 4,000 years, lastly buried about 421 AD to be uncovered in the 1820s by Joseph Smith so he could translate the Book of Mormon. It is a most remarkable story of a religious object older than the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments, over a time span more than 4 times longer than the Ark of the Covenant. And ending in Joseph Smith's hands with the gift and power of God bringing forth the Book of Mormon. If the story be true, it is an offense against reason that Joseph would have translated the plates with a typical money-digging stone used by swindlers to part wealth from superstitious fools, while having in his possession for the very purpose of translating by the gift and power of God, one of the rarest, most ancient and sacred relics on earth. Historical evidence proves he used the money-digger's stone. The church admits it. The story is shattered, leaving in its ruins only the cold harsh truth, that the Book of Mormon was a forgery.
Which is why in his official history he tried to hide the seer stone. I plan to deal with the recent attempt by traditionalists to deny JS used a seer stone in translating. Thanks for commenting.
my only question is why would anyone writing consider throwing in an alphabet for the language written? i mean i write in english so i would never consider anyone who reads what i write might need an alphabet sheet thrown in so they could decipher what i had written. there is no reason for it even if the message i write is going to someone from the future in a time capsule
That's a great question, especially considering the words showed up in his seer stone in English. But is that your ONLY question? Of far more interest to me is why in the world would Hebrews write in Egyptian, the language of their nemesis?
bowrudder oh that's not all, "reformed egyptian" and why would a hebrew scroll written in reformed egyptian be stuffed in the chest cavity of an egyptian mummy? smith may have been a "pro" in his day but to try something like this now? he would have been shot long before he had married a 14 year old
he was hung up on ancient egypt because he had mummies in his living room and was charging people to walk in and see them then hear the story he made up about them. there are more than a few newspaper stories about his mother taking people into the parlor and showing them and calling one, pharoh and the other his queen
I'm convinced that Joseph customised his BS to fit the credulity of each recipient, not anticipating that all this would later be scrutinised and cross-referenced in detail. The frustrating thing about it all is that the witnesses to these events seem to have investments in it seeming true or threats to their character and lifestyle in denouncing it outright, and logic tells us that there is a great deal of lying and concealment going on. It's almost impossible to know what actually happened, but it seems pretty obvious that both plates and spectacles never existed. However I will point out that if you wanted to construct the perfect device to look at bullet points without the other person seeing them. A device in common use that you already use for 'otherworldly' purposes, a Hat would be ideal.
I'm glad you made the distinction between the occult and some inherently satanic or evil group or doctrine. Occult simply means "hidden" as in hidden or secret knowledge or practices. Many a conversation gets derailed by such confusion.
This is stupid on so many levels. Use the Occam's razor on the story of Joseph Smith. Have God ever used methods like this in the books of the Bible? No! Is it likely He would start now all of a sudden and then use methods which are a carbon copy of the bogus methodology Smith used when looking for treasures?
I'm not convinced a 'seer' stone was ever used within the process of translation. I believe Oliver Cowdery who claimed he used the spectacles, which would have been a more intelligible way of deciphering a foreign language, from which Joseph Smith likely eventually became fluent in. Following which time I can maybe understand better the seer stone theory that he needed enlightenment to know whether or not he was rendering a precise translation. A seer stone might have been prepared for that purpose. The spectacles it seems were necessary to interpret the foreign language, whereas the stone simply told him if he was right about what he already translated, therefore making both essential to the process. A seer stone unlikely had messages written upon it, more likely gave him inspiration about if he was doing it correctly since a light was involved. A spitmritual light would simply convey a truth of a promise. I'm guessing eventually he required neither to convey a truth. He was learning how to be a prophet. He obviously needed assistance, including a scribe, but Oliver himself was given license to translate, and I trust his rendering as accurate and probably the most honest. Emma assisted with a lost record which might not have required an it in and thummim. A seer stone likely was the means for a useless record with little purpose perhaps other than to deceive. What we got was the best of the best and if Oliver Cowdery said it necessitated an urim and thummim, I'm inclined to believe him. He was one of the three witnesses which included David Whitmer and Martin Harris. Harris mortgaged his farm for publication of 5000 copies. The Book of Mormon has only gotten more accurate with each rendering. Probably mistakes were made. What was Joseph Smith's education? Why wouldn't he use a Bible to validate parts of it? Assuming he did, of mistakes were made they could be rectified. The seer stone appear a to serve as a basis of clarification, only. The it in and thummim seem to me to be the basis by which he wrote what was in a language unfamiliar to him, or to anyone else. I don't believe Oliver Cowdery lied. I believe he told the God's truth. He had no reason to lie, IMO.
Christopher Foote Read Richard Bushman's rough stone rolling and prepare to have your world rocked. He looked in a hat with his seer stone, which cowdery also called the urim and thummim. It doesn't change the truth of the book though, just the translation process.
@@christopherfoote4643hey there, I was Mormon since birth and have been doing research on the church history now intensely now for about 6 months. Joseph had lots of reasons to lie. Joseph benefited by starting the "church" because he saw that it was a way to manipulate followers in a number of ways. One was through plural marriages. He was able to have multiple women (or girls, some who we're only 14) also it is a fact that he married several women who were already married to living men (without there husband's even knowing). He also had relations with this 14 year old while being married to Emma years before he made polygamy a commandment from God. He tricked these women into marring him in a number of ways. He also received attention and money. He was a crook and a fraud. All this and much more is referenced in the CES letters.
@@christopherfoote4643 also there is evidence of multiple book very similar to the book of Mormon published before the book of Mormon. One even speaks of metal plates and a urim and thummim. These book are available in PDF one is the View of the Hebrews. The CES letters also do a good breakdown of the similarities between these books and the BOM.
God wanted to restore his church in America because that's where other false religions were starting up, so he chose a guy looking for money, using seer stones, magic spectacles, nice going.
Daily Mail reported: A small onyx stone believed to have been worn in the sacred breastplate of the High Priest of Jerusalem may have been found after being missing for more than 1,000 years. A sardonyx gem, thought to have been one of two that were set in gold on each shoulder of the breastplate and deemed to be 'forms of divine communication', was discovered in South Africa. The owner claims the stone was given to a distant ancestor as a reward from the High Priest in 1189 and has been passed from generation to generation of the family since. Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3789923/Mysterious-onyx-stone-thought-ancient-prophetic-gem-breastplate-High-Priest-Jerusalem.html#ixzz4KReGS8Jz Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebo
The quotes here are correct so what's the problem how can Vogel equate this with the occult? The Book of Mormon quotes Jesus Christ in every few verses and testifies of Him what does that prove that it came from the devil? Of course not it gives the clearest explanation of the great Atonement of Jesus Christ and His being the great creator of worlds without end. May Vogel receive his reward for denying the true God.
That's the picture presented by the missionaries who taught me. What a bait-and-switch scheme. Some buildings had to remove those paintings showing this curated, false history. Just another fail.
That would be irrelevant one could well use acts to write alma one could well have used an older book to write a newer book. It's called a remake doesnt matter. Smith was a pedophile wizard
It cracks me up every time I see the pictures of the guy with his face in a hat. I guess if you already believe in supernatural nonsense like angels, demons and gods you're just as likely to buy a little more magical nonsense like this. Especially if it lets you sleep with lots more women!
" Smith claimed he saw luminous words on the stone, " You are not telling the truth. JS made NO such statement. He very deliberately refused to describe the translation process, even to Hyrum and other close associates.
Kent Purdy Obvious that he did not see the translation process == how could he if JS's face covered the brim of the hat? It was speculation, not based on eyewitness.
Kent Purdy Please give us a link to the source that all the witnesses saw the words appearing on the seer stone. Even the most rabid antiMormons do not make that claim, but let's see what you got.
cdowis David Witmer - witness Marktin Harris - witness Joseph Knight, Sr - close friend of JS told him No other eye witness contradicted this added level of detail. Your question illustrates that you are completely unaware of how JS scried for treasure. It was a visual experience. "Translating" was a type of scrying. And no, I'm not going to look up all those sources. Do it yourself.
+fukDa FingZ Several contemporary witnesses, including court records, that he used this method for treasure hunting is evidence that he is familiar with the technique. Then we have several contemporary witnesses that he translated using this method. On the other hand. there is no contemporary account claiming that he used any other technique for translation. This is why even the LDS church admits he did.
The love of God can testify to any son of God that in reality he called Joseph Smith to restore all of the reveletions he was forordain to receive them
+Adrián Benito Just Mormon propaganda. Further, the Love of God is presented thru Jesus, NOT Joe Smith. Jesus is the center of focus for ALL true Christians. Joe Smith is the focus for Mormons...ALL such pseudo-christian groups elevate their celebrity of choice ABOVE the Word of God and the Lord Jesus.
I have been and will always remain a mormon based upon the spirit of God. I have found the spirit of God nowhere near as strong in any other Christian churches! Far too many people fall into the intellectual side of things meaning dates places names correlations and such. All of this means nothing if the spirit reveals to that Joseph was in fact a true prophet.
I pray the true God will deliver you from the deadly delusion that your feelings trump the real Scripture with its anathema against false gospels such as Mormonism and the clear, unbroken 2000 year teaching of Holy Tradition through Christ's Orthodox Church.
yawn. this guy starts out with so many fallacies that he's already rendered himself unbelievable. The church has known and taught since the beginning that Joseph Smith used a seer stone to translate part of the BOM. Despite what mr Vogel blatantly says, the breastplate/spectacles ie Urim and thummin WAS IN FACT used in the translation process. Eventually joseph smith became experienced and confident enough in his revelatory abilities that he didn't even rely on physical stones etc. just a couple of many old articles on SEER STONES being talked about and taught in the church. 1974, an LDS kids magazine, The Friend teaches the translation process including the seer stone. "Joseph also used an egg-shaped, brown rock for translating called a seer stone." "Martin Harris said that on the seer stone “sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by [the one writing them down] and when finished [that person] would say ‘written;’ and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another take its place;" "Even with the help of the Urim and Thummim and the seer stone, it wasn’t easy to translate the sacred record. It required the Prophet’s greatest concentration and spiritual strength. Joseph’s friend, David Whitmer, said that sometimes when the Prophet would try to translate, “he was spiritually blind” and could not do it. Joseph explained that when that happened it was because his mind “dwelt too much on earthly things.” One morning the Prophet was unhappy with his wife Emma over a household matter. When he went upstairs where Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer were waiting to continue with the translation, he still had a bad feeling about his wife in his heart. Joseph tried to translate but not even a syllable of a word came to him; and he knew why. Joseph went downstairs and out into an orchard where he prayed to the Lord. After about an hour, Joseph returned to the house feeling humble and repentant. He asked Emma to forgive him for his lack of understanding. Then he went back upstairs where he was able to translate without any difficulty. David Whitmer also understood why the Prophet couldn’t translate just an hour before. He said, “Now we see how very strict the Lord is, and how he requires the heart of man to be just right in his sight before he can receive revelations from him.” www.lds.org/friend/1974/09/a-peaceful-heart?lang=eng ------------------------- 1977 “He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone.” 4 After Martin Harris lost the part of the translation done in 1828, Oliver Cowdery became chief scribe for the entire Book of Mormon as it is now printed. Toward the end of this new work of 1829, David Whitmer on occasion watched and afterwards spoke of the seer stone. 5 Yet as an intimate assistant, Oliver Cowdery stressed the Urim and Thummim in his statements. While editor of the Church newspaper in 1834, he made the comment already quoted on the inspiration of writing for Joseph Smith. Then the Prophet’s exscribe added:" www.lds.org/ensign/1977/09/by-the-gift-
Harrison Salisbury You are a nutcase. The Church let the fantasy that the Book of Mormon was translated by use of the Urim & Thummin for decades without anything more than occasional offhand comments. And, if it was used at all it was only with the lost 116 pages. Eventually Joseph Smith had the fraud so entrenched that he did not need the stone to perpetrate it.
Linda Poffenroth You got it. God does not need a peep stone, but Smith did because in that day and with those people the stone actually gave him some credibility. Those people actually believed in magic artifices and those that were effective in using such to deceive them. Smith was well schooled in these arts.
Harrison Salisbury No the Church has not thought that perhaps you need to go to any of the visitors centers and you can see that the church is Still trying to push the bullsh*t Story that he had the plates in front of him when on Lds org it says otherwise why because the Church wants to have plausible deniability if the church was teaching the Rock in a hat they wouldn’t have Pictures that have no rock and no hat anywhere in sight why do they do this because a rock and in a hat doesn’t look Good the LDS LEADERS have been Lying for the past 188 yrs Also they say that black skin is not a curse in the Gospel Topic Essays when in fact their Scriptures say that is exactly what it is see 2 Nephi 5 21 there are other places that make it clear black skin is a curse So the Leaders are saying what exactly that God lied Or that the Spirit lied when he testified of the books truthfullness in which case Toss your testimony or The church leaders Are Lying yet again And Joseph made it all up as he is a proven liar he lied about having multiple wives Shortly before his Death So that Shows that he had no Honor he’d lie about that he’d lie about seeing God which by the way he told no one about it for 12 years You See God and yet you tell no one RIGHT the fact is he married Other men’s wives he married 14 yr old girls which places him in the same class as warren Jeff’s their has been Zero archaeological evidence ever found in the Americas that nephites lamenites ever existed their never will be Hill comorah was where 2 million people died yet their is no evidence such a events happened their was no Horses no elephants No Steel in the Americas during the time its said to have happened The Indians are of Northeastern Asian origins not Jerusalem origins the book of Abraham was not written by Abraham’s own hand proven by every Egyptologist that’s examined the Scrolls even Mormon ones agree the Kinderhook plates were proven in 1980 to be a 19th century production not a ancient record of a descendant of Han son of pharaoh as Joseph claimed they were The facts are provable the Book of Mormon is Simply indefensible Joseph was a com man who practiced conning people with his treasure digging fraud Scheme He took that com to another level with the Book of Mormon The Book of Mormon says that polygamy.is a abomination to God yet D&C says that God approved of it yes it’s referring to the same people in both cases A God that is all knowing Wouldn’t contradict himself So what is the only Conclusion that can be deduced from this God is not its author It’s Joseph’s MYTH also Joseph said it was Nephi who appeared to him this was in PGP as well as a few other publications controlled by Joseph the church now says it was Moroni the problem is that the Lds people have been deceived they deny provable historical facts because they are told you can only trust the Church Well the Church is led by liars not men of God Hate to burst your bubble but these are the facts And no I do not hate the Mormon people they are nice people who are trying to do good They don’t realize they are following Joseph’s gospel not Jesus Gospel if you say that we worship Jesus not Joseph Go watch Jason kunzler BYU Idaho Idaho Speech and it is clear that it’s Joseph that is worshipped keep in mind this is at a church School so the speeches are approved by the brethren yet they allow this Joseph is put up Their with Jesus when in fact he was a Liar an Adulterer who broke every law of D&C 132 I woke up I wanted nothing more than to prove the Church was true it’s Cost me a lot I will Stand with the truth as Ruben clark said if we have the truth it cannot be harmed if we have not the truth It ought to be harmed Well I know they have not the truth So if the truth harms the Church So be it Also their was no Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in 1833 Look it up !!! Yet another lie in the Gospel Topic Essays
Wait ..dude just snuck in that the ancient mound builders where giants..now i have to pay close attention..this guy is a sly one..dropping other tid bits that could jus slip by the layman..hmm
I didn't say the Mound Builders were giants, only that some in the 19th century believed they were. This is reflected in the BofM's description of the Jaredites as large (Mosiah 8:10).
@@danvogel6802 yes and technically you didnt say giant..you said ' of a larg stature' meaning just big..i admit i embellished a bit ..its cool you read your comments..i am actually enjoying your series..thank you for your hard work..
I talked to my bishop just last Sunday, and told him I was "struggling" with the church. One of my biggest problems is the rock in the hat. He knew nothing about it. Said it was the Urrim and Thummim. Or however it's spelled. I told him that in fact it was a rock in his hat. Also let him know I didn't believe there were elephants on these continents during the time period of the BoM. He didn't know about that either. Really? It's becoming clearer to me all the time that those who hold fastest to their religion, know very little about it. My wife is really having a hard time with my new-found knowledge. She doesn't want to know anything about it, and she's letting it tear her apart.
R B I can't imagine the struggle people leaving or questioning a long held conception about Mormonism face. I was never in such a group but my heart goes out to you and your wife. I hope you find answers and can cope with the feelings that come with that. I'm agnostic but have never ridiculed anyone for their religious beliefs. Take care.
I don't know how long you've been a Mormon, but you have wasted your time. You never even bothered to get a real testimony and are confused by this well known information that you should have known about and resolved a long time ago. But no...Please leave on your own so we don't have to throw you out.
John Lee, you are a perfect example for the church. Don't believe the teachings? You must be confused, or misled. You never really believed. Should have found out about the contradictions, and lies long ago. The lies the church tells, and the misinformation they feed its members. You don't know a thing about me. I've done more public speaking, firesides, church meetings, stake conferences, than anyone I know. Yes, the testimony. How did Oaks put it? Tell people you believe it, even when you don't, that way you will believe it, and be able to tell more people about it. It's a cult dude. You don't see it, because you are a victim of it. So was I. You say you would throw me out? Is that what your precious apostles teach? I feel sorry for you, because like I said, you are a victim. But on a personal level. Eat shit.
Your laziness doesn't equate to deception, lies or obfuscation...it only spotlights your laziness and a desire to be free of accountability. Always glad to see the dross and offal move out. We're stronger for it. Have fun in the wilderness.
Did you read what I said? Are you too stupid to understand it? I was a member of your cult for over 40 years. Spoke to thousands of people about the "truth" of the church. THOUSANDS. Laziness? Lies? Obfuscation? Those are the tactics of the church. Not me. Dross, offal? I am leaving, but it doesn't make you stronger, or your church any more true. Or true at all. Desire to be free of accountability? Of course. You saw through me. Keep your fake Book of Abraham. The fraudulent teachings of the Book of Mormon. See you at the opening of the Book of Mormon Archaeology Museum. You know, that empty building, with no artifacts. Empty.
I consider the Mormon faith to be complete and utter nonsense, but I'm fascinated by the historical aspect of it all. The office where I work is just minutes away from the Kirtland Temple and I've developed an odd obsession with the kookiness of this cult. Great job on this series. It's obvious you put a tremendous amount of research and work into it.
P.O. poppy
Millions believed in Hitler. Millions more in Hirohito and not to mention Mussolini. Humans have an intrinsic need to be protected. To be part of something they perceive to be greater than themselves. Throw in the topics of salvation and Jesus…after this life and you’ve got a recipe for
Cults of all kinds. Welcome Joe Smith.
There’s something to it all I think. A lot of nonsense ; but the esotericism is appealing. Some truth and some garbage. Idk. I’m a Catholic. Helps me consider things about my own faith as well, and strengthen it as well. However LDS is truly a endlessly fascinating topic and a they are a lovely People who I have a lot of respect for.
@@ryanr5139 Full of kiddie-diddlers just like the CC!
I’ll never forget when a devout Mormon I went to school with reached out to me a few years later asking about me leaving the church, and how he had finally understood why. It was scary for him as his family essentially ostracized him but he is much happier and in a happier marriage.
Hard for one to deny such well researched and documented work! Great job!! 👌
After reading the Book of Mormon years ago, and being totally dumbfounded by the whole book, I have had an interest in the topic. I have a hard time with the major changes of every aspect of this so called religion since it's inception. I used to joke I could write a text about fairies and get people to believe it. Now I am convinced that this idea is actually plausible.
Be sure to start 9\10ths of every sentence with 'and' include 'come to pass' an average of 10 times per page, and over use 'beheld' and 'behold' every time someone speaks. Tryith to writith shiteth liketh thisis. You can't fail. Perhaps use an illiterate person to narrate story. Worked with Mohammed and Joseph smith.
@@rahowhero lol
Another great video, Dan. Thanks for you continued work in tossing the anachronisms from the traditional tellings of early Mormon history.
Great video Dan...I know that you approach your work as a historian. It is great to get information that is true and clear amongst all the Mormon lies and hysteria.
hi Dan! I just wanted to drop you a line and say I've watched all your videos so far and have learned a lot about this history. this isn't the kind of thing you learn in Chapel mormonism. Even though you are an unbeliever I like how you present your videos and show your sources. it's hard to find information about Mormon history without the presenter trying to mock or belittle it and you don't do that. rather you politely want to give your viewers an education. please keep up the good work and I hope to see more videos.
This is excellent work Dan! I never knew the fact that the story about the spectacles or urim and thummim came after the fact and was not originally included with Joseph's narrative until presented by someone else. Thank you for continuously sharing factual information.
It's interesting to hear such an intellectual approach to something so utterly dopey. Very informative!
Great remark 👍
It's too bad that JFK came along and we all abandoned hats - otherwise lots of people could be rich from finding buried treasure and forgotten religions.
@@fritzbasset8645 Yes, haha, at least there are plenty of rocks still around, so people can continue to decipher ancient languages.
So there was no need at all for the "golden plates" ! According to this story, Joseph Smith did NOT translate from the plates, but from a stone in his hat. Why, then, did the angel "Moroni" keep Joseph Smith waiting 4 years or so before showing him where the "golden plates" were buried so that the history could be related and made public? Honestly, the whole thing becomes (with apologies to Lewis Carroll) "curioser and curioser".
Nice job exposing Smith's con. This video captures my first encounter with LDS where they showed me pictures of JS studiously examining the plates as if he were really on a mission from God. Glad to be out of that lier's club.
Out of the Liar's Club and into the Outliers Club.
Dan you have blown my mind! I have always wondered why Joseph decided to include glasses. It makes sense now that I know that he had prior conversations where he told others that he saw glasses with the plates. Thank you for your research
How can anyone believe the Joseph Smith story when the details are known?
Because MOM believed it...
I was once had a friend who put it very succinctly. " To believe in Mormonism you have to leave your brain at the door".
A demon appeared to Joseph Smith he thought it was from god
Point taken, but I'd bet my bottom dollar it was just him, the whole time!
Whatever t was or not. It was. Certainly NOT The LORD Jesus Christ
Joseph didn't have the plates what had I was a big fairy tale to tell everybody he was evil and wicked and a liar
If I had been told about the stone in the hat,or the magic glasses,I would have told the missionaries to go away.🌹
If I had known the same, I wouldn't have been knocking on your door.
@@kentthalman4459😮😂😂 That needs to go on a billboard! It's perfect.
Instead of telling them to go away, show the love of Jesus to them.
I’m glad the light has been shined on the deception. So many innocent people have dedicated their entire lives to a false gospel. It is devastating for them. I think many find it easier to stay in the deception. These people are victims. Please pray for them.
You deserve so many more views and subscribers. These videos are great
Thanks. I'm glad you find them useful.
Treasure and fantastic stories are very enticing. Well done presenting the facts.
What an interesting hour with this video! Thank you!
It’s so refreshing to hear a facts based approach to lay down the truth of things as they actually were, as opposed to a twisted presentation of them to deceive upright people.
He was hiding notes from books like the book of napoleon and other random notes. There were no tablets. This is all sorcery by the way...
The Persecuted the tools of divination are to never be used. God condemns it and would never bring forth a prophet to speak to the people that uses them.
Thank you for sorting this out, Dan. Sadly, It proves that Joseph Smith felt no compunction to be honest or consistent about the method/s that he used to produce the Book of Mormon. Were his results real and were he a scrupulous conduit through which God chose to work, Smith would not have backed away from his methods or betrayed the authenticity of his process. Rather, he would have let them stand as originally described and corroborated by witnesses. Smith's subsequent overwriting and adjustments to his story for the sake of optics make it clear that the "translation" process was ever only a show designed to impress an audience. That is why it could be rewritten for a changing audience. All of this is evidence of Smith's pattern of obfuscation with regard to a great many aspects of his life and mission. Eventually, every student of that history comes to realize that he is on a fool's errand trying to give the benefit of the doubt to so many inconsistencies. At that point, it is clear that the only consistent explanation of his actions is that Smith was conning people for his own benefit.
Hi Dan. You seem to dismiss the accounts of the spectacles being used in a hat. I disagree. The 1870 account (reminiscences from 1830) that you published in Early Mormon Documents Vol 1, pp 462-463 indicates that Joseph Smith Sr. said that the spectacles only worked when put in the dark: "Put it on your face, and put your face in a skin, and you will see what it is.” But the spectacles by most accounts would have been about 8" or more across. Most hats aren't more than 7.25" in diameter, so the spectacles would not have been able to lie flat in the hat. This is why Joseph would have had to take out a lens and place a single lens in the hat. That must have been a bit of a pain (and made the glasses seem less magical without the frame) which could have been a motivation to switching to his own seer stone. Anyhow, that's my theory.
The early accounts mentioning the spectacles in the hat come from Harris, who, in more reliable sources, said it was the dark-colored seer stone. He even switched the stone. These newspaper accounts said it was the spectacles, not one of the stones. I think it is a simple matter of an outsider being confused when first hearing the story of the plates and spectacles and then being told about JS putting a stone in a hat and conflating them.
Right,now we have magic glasses,and that’s as well as the hat.come on.I swear I am completely sure that the Church is a farce.And that’s after being a member over 40 years.What an idiot I was..🌹
Is this where the expression 'talking through your hat' comes from?
Dan I enjoy your books , I know signature books has your book Indian origins online but do you know where I can get a hard copy?
Jon Duncan Benchmark Books in SLC. www.benchmarkbooks.com/
Smith was a real clown.
It is very worrisome that all the young people are getting trapped in that Mormon mess. Everything that was happening at the time. How could people not know it's rediculace.
I think Smith may have originally had full sized pages to dictate from, which needed an inconvenient curtain to cover what he was doing. Over time he experimented either with cutting the pages in half, or rewriting the day's text on smaller bits of paper that he could leaf through inside his hat. When Smith didn't have time to rewrite or cut the pages, he would need the full curtain to cover his activities. That's how I read the situation.
make up anything you want, whatever makes you happy. Its all a fairy tale that has been disproven.
Maybe he never even dictated anything with the stone and hat. It was just a parlor trick. So many deceptions; why not that too?
Dan, Regarding the 1838 account, notice that the original phrase Smith used was: "there were two stones in silver bows and these PUT IN to a breast plate constituted what is called the Urim & Thummin." This was crossed out and replaced with "fastened."
I just noticed it and thought you might find it interesting.
www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-a-1-23-december-1805-30-august-1834/5
Great catch!
I think its convenient that we don't have the 'urim and thummim' (spectacles) to prove their existence,...but we have a 'peep-stone' found from a well dig.
I wear spectals. Will the Mormons say they are majic
June Hendeson Only if you are a true prophetess :)
Ha ha
Hi Vogel. In reference to D&C 3:15, "For thou hast suffered the counsil of thy director to be trampled upon from the beginning", I realised that while the spectacles were not in any way trampled during the period when Joseph supposedly used them, the seer stones were reported to have been swapped out by Martin Harris as a test of Joseph's divine claims since the beginning of the time when Martin Harris was scribe. Would that not create a stronger link between the director and the seer stones? Or am I interpreting it out of context?
I'd like to know your opinion on this.
The earliest version of the revelation reads "directors" and it was prior to losing the spectacles after the loss of the 116-page manuscript. The trampling partly at least refers to the three times JS asked God t let Harris take the manuscript.
@@danvogel6802 Thanks for clarifying. If the "directors" is referring to the spectacles and not the seer stone due to the plurality of the word & how the spectacles were usually described as being two transparent stones, wouldn't that mean that Elizabeth Ann was referring to the seer stone when she described it as a "director"?
@@Sly_Spy JS only used the seer stone at the Whitmer residence since it was June 1829 and the spectacles were supposedly taken in 1828. The revelation may have been referring to both seer stones and spectacles.
@@danvogel6802 So Elizabeth Ann's testimony is useless then, since it isn't clear whether she was referring to the seer stone or spectacles?
@@Sly_Spy She was referring to the seer stone placed in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon. That's enough for me.
If words appeared on the stones why did he need the plates ? I'm confused.
Interesting that the church finally published pictures of the seer stone this past week. I agree with Mr. Vogel that witnesses who spoke of a urim and thummim, were speaking long after the fact. The urim and thummim wasn't even mentioned until 4 years later.
Never figured out why God didnt put the gold plates in English so as to avoid a lengthy translation process fraught with possible translation errors....
How about some discussion of Smith’s interpretation of Christ’s doctrine as presented in the book, rather than endless criticisms about the allegory that Smith presented on how the book came about?
There are plenty of people doing that.
@@danvogel6802 Consider this quote: “Br. Joseph Smith jr. said that it was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the book of Mormon, & also said that it was not expedient for him to relate these things &c”. (General Conference Minutes, 1831).
However, Smith did create an evolving allegory of how the book came about so as to satisfy curiosity and to act as a device to stimulate interest among Bible-believing Christians. Smith did this so that they might consider his interpretation of Christ’s doctrine as presented in his book.
Appreciate this Mr Vogel. Can’t help thinking that if only these purported ancient Hebrews in America had only written in good ol’ mundane Hebrew, the whole translation process would have been considerably less supernatural and bizarre. No need for weird granny glasses and a metal vest, or indeed a rock and a hat!
The Smiths were into the occult and magic
Glass looking is divination with is an abomination to God .
Deuteronomy 18:10-11
Another words Joseph dictation didn't come from God
Why would God allow divination when he said it was abomination ?
All of these facts are well documented. But hidden by LDS leadership, who told members fabricated lofty tales of Smith.
The lies, polygamous practices and corruption of Mormon origins has only recently come to light, revealing the true nature of Smith and the LDS church.
,
The story includes this "seer stone," but I think even that may be a story. The book may have been composed by several people conspiring. Those upstate New York winters were long. Plenty of time to make up a book and a religion.
I worked with a man who was a self-righteous evangelizing mormon, which I found most uncomfortable. One day I took in some Rune Stones, which are an ancient device for fortune-telling. He really didn't like being near them but he did ask me how they were used, I told him that you put them in a hat and then pushed your face into the hat so that all light was blocked out and then words would appear on the stones. He then told me that such a practice was was at best superstitious nonsense, possibly witchcraft, but probably was the work of Satan. When I told him that his beloved BOM was translated that way he got furious, as even though he is a "priest" in the cult of mormon he had always been told that the gold plates were read and translated by Joseph Smith. He did a bit of a google search and found out the truth, then came up with the excuse that to tell the truth at the time of them being translated would have been beyond the understanding of most people and JS would not have been believed. A definite sign of being a victim of the BITE method of cult control.
+Reverend George Good story. Thanks for sharing.
I’m studying Mormonism but not a believer in it, I studied with two young men a few years ago and I shut them down I was not rude with them but just asked them questions and tried to work in the Bible but they wanted to stay in the BoM. I’ve prayed that they have turned away from Mormonism.
Thank you for this video.
I am now fully convinced of the reasons for my original sense of discomfort regarding the history and teachings of the Morman faith.
I am saddened by the realization that so so many have accepted and been led to believe these false teachings.
These teachings reek of the occult and mysticism.
Lord Jesus, open their hearts and minds so that they may come to know your truths only. Amen.
Poor Dan. He I can’t see the forest through the trees. Please do your next video on how Moses actually had a Walkingstick and not a staff, which, of course, negates the miracle of the parting of the sea.
I appreciate the detangling of the confusing spinning and weaving of lore.
Well done. I’ve always thought that Joseph was miss using his seer stone to treasure hunt.
I was born and raised in Rockford, Illinois and used to find ancient objects all over that place. I later became a Mormon and had the chance to view a large, flat stone that looked smooth with slight ridges and curves. When asked if I saw anything, I replied a nation at war. I could see the season, location, and the very people in a large war. Had I magnified the stone with a stable breastplate and magnified glasses set at a certain distance, it would had appeared in 3d setting that would illuminate the scribed setting and offered a much finer explanation. Very simple but it was also very spiritual. I believe the Lord offers certain ways to receive these sacred history settings, by means of seeing the way they had to make the plates, and thereby be able to interpret. There is a temporal side and spiritual side to this experience. I would had never known had I not viewed it with my own eyes.
Yeah but no
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I want whatever you're smoking. That's some far out stuff, maaaan.
Anyone who wants know about Urim and Thummim. look in Google
I've been re-reading No Man Knows My History lately, so I thought I would also revisit some of these videos. Frankly, some of this stuff I find funny. Not in a mean way; it's just funny. Elaborately duping his friends and family like that... You have to wonder if Smith was secretly laughing at everyone. How could he not have been? I start to wonder how people could possibly have fallen for such things back then, but then I remember the church is still going strong with wealth totaling a hundred billion dollars, and that some of my family take it more seriously than anything else in life. (I know my grandma scoffs at Scientology, and I have seen an interview with one of the modern apostles in which he does the same. They have no room to, really...)
+GuerillaGary
OK, according to you he was hiding several books in that hat. How big was that hat, did it have a table to hold those books, did the hat also have a lantern so that he could read them -- or did it have a window. Witnesses say that he covered his fact over the hat, so how did he turn the pages?
That was a very special hat, especially since nobody noticed anything unusual about it.
I thought this read as Joseph Smith's magic Testicles
+TK “Darth Dan” xz420 Well, it took a lot of "balls" to admit it....
They don't fit in a top hat so a seer stone was substituted.
Appreciate the quality information here provided. Since my blog, ('Fayette/Westmoreland Forgotten History dot com') relates regional historical subject matter from southwestern Pennsylvania, I had covered the basic story of Mormonism's origins along with the many inconsistencies on my blog post. Thanks for dealing closely with factual observations!
Watch the Bible vs. The book of Mormons video, is very good.
The new narrative is that JS used a seer stone in a top hat. He then buried his face into the hat and translated to the scribe. This can be found in one of the gospel topics essays on the church web site.
This is a great video using historical facts - I love it.
It boils down to did Joseph Smith translate by the gift and power of God? I have read the Book of Mormon many times and each time it brings me closer to God and testifies to me that Jesus is the Saviour. I love this book. I believe that someday we will know exactly how the translation was done. It does not matter really. We do not have all the facts. What we do have is the book and it teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I totally agree with you 33sylvia33. The Book of Mormon is true and the church is growing around the world. Thank Heaven for this wonderful book.
33sylvia33 wrote:
What we do have is the book and it teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ
============================================
Something that is interesting and no many people realized how the Mormon doctrine contradict with Christianity. I'm talking the steps or the spiritual progress that the Mormon church offer to people, and there is the BIG EVIL, let me explain how I think the Mormon gospel is very much against Christianity.
Mormons missionaries, find people and the most important message they need to share with new investigators is the Joseph Smith's First Vision and the Book of Mormon, IS NOT about accepting christ their main message, is the restoration of the gospel, restoration of the priesthood, they claims that only the Mormon church have the power and authority to act in the name of god. Then people accept those doctrines and of course missionaries teach people that jesus is our savior, yes, they do, then they become members of the church, they accept the First Vision, the book of Mormon and jesus as their saviors and they go to church and etc, etc, and they are happy forever, NOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HERE IS THE CLEVER SCAM!!!
Here come the EVIL that no many people see.
If you really want to be SAVED and exalted and be in a celestial kingdom for eternity, guess what??????? you wont get there by ONLY ACCEPTING CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR, right there is the ABOMINATION, you would have to go to the temple the rest of your mortal live and practice all those Masonic rituals again and again to be ready to be exalted and become god, AND THERE IS THE BIG UGLY SCAM of the only true church, to be able to go to the temple you need to be WORTHY, and ONE OF THE MOST important requirement to be worthy, is TO PAY YOUR 10% TITHING to the church every month, and how they do this? the process is that bishops and stake presidents interview people to know if they are worthy to go to the temple, there is a list a things you need to obey to get your Mormon temple membership card, and the 10% of your monthly income is one of them, YOU SEE, jesus IS NOT the way, is THE TEMPLE, and that scripture in:
Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
You see, the Mormon church claims that an angel from heaven gave Joseph Smith the location of the golden plates, from which the Book of Mormon came, and my friends, this Mormon gospel is VERY different and strange compare to any christian religion, and that scripture in Galatians 1:8 condemn the Mormon church and their CLEVER SCAM.
I was a Mormon for 32 years, I don't hate Mormons or the leaders, I feel that is my duty to do what I can to share my experience and expose this scam.
That is not my experience. Everything in the temple is symbolic of and points to the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon testifies of Jesus Christ. Listen to the prophet and apostles speak and compare . These are men of God. We do believe in grace. We believe that men will be held accountable for their actions.
I agree. We do believe in grace and that we will be held accountable. There is no Big evil or Scam at all. We love the Lord our Savior Jesus Christ. We believe he is at the helm.
Lindsey Phillips
teaches the gospel of jesus???? for sure is the Mormon jesus, think for a minute, please? do you really think that the real jesus would be involve in interviewing people and giving them a membership card only after members pay that precious 10% to permit members to enter those millions of dollars building call "temples?
To believe that a doctrine like that is accepted by god is such offense to any rational person, and I will never stop saying this:
INDOCTRINATION CONVINCE PEOPLE TO BELIEVE SUCH A PRACTICE.
Because that indoctrination, of course you will never question why ALL CHURCH LEADERS exhort people over and over, to pay that 10% tithing, AND IT GET WORSE, I heard from church leaders for 32 years that any faithful member "FIRST" would pay the 10% tithing to the church from their income, and then they should pay the mortgage, utilities, etc,etc, of course the church leaders say, "first pay the 10% to the lord", of course, the Mormon lord.
Because urim and thummim are mentioned in the OT, Joseph Smith uses this to try to validate this ridiculous story.
35 Mormons disliked this video lol
And also- Aaron's Urim&Thummim show up long after the Jaredite timeline.
I believe that the insanity of the spectacles joined to the breastplate, originates as a misunderstanding of a not very clear verse of the bible. Exodus 28:30 describes the Urim and Thummim as being "in" the breastplate of the High Priest.
30 "In the breastpiece of judgment you shall put the Urim and the Thummim, and they shall be on Aaron’s heart when he goes in before the Lord; thus Aaron shall bear the judgment of the Israelites on his heart before the Lord continually."
Most modern historians think that Urim and Thummim were two stones used in cleromancy, identical in shape and texture but perhaps of different colours, which were tucked into a kind of pouch behind the breastplate. When the priest desired an answer from YHWH, he would probably mutter a prayer and then dip his hand into the pouch. Since the stones were identical to the touch, the priest could draw out one stone at random. The Urim may have been black, and signified No. The Thummim may have been white, and signified Yes. This was the indication of the will of YHWH.
In the 1830s I don't think people understood these passages. Therefore in Mormonism, Smith and co tried to interpret the idea of the Urim and Thummim being two stones used to determine the will of God, and "in" a breastplate. This becomes the insanity of two stones wrapped in spectacle frames and attached by a rod to the breastplate to suspend them in front of the face! When not in use, the spectacles could be twisted on the rod into a kind of breast pocket in the front of the armour. You can see how this can come out of a misunderstanding of Exodus 28:30.
Mosiah 8:13 tells of a man who can translate ancient records using interpreters. No man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for what he ought not and should perish.
Ether 3:23-24 tells how words were written in a confounded language and the Lord gave the brother of Jared two stones that He would cause to magnify the eyes of men at a later time so they could interpret those writings. That is the interpreters in Mosiah.
Mosiah 28:20 tells how those interpreters are to be handed down from one generation to another. Moroni was the final heir and deposited those interpreters with the gold plates.
So the interpreters were handed down through generations beginning soon after the tower of Babel, extending over a period of about 4,000 years, lastly buried about 421 AD to be uncovered in the 1820s by Joseph Smith so he could translate the Book of Mormon.
It is a most remarkable story of a religious object older than the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments, over a time span more than 4 times longer than the Ark of the Covenant. And ending in Joseph Smith's hands with the gift and power of God bringing forth the Book of Mormon.
If the story be true, it is an offense against reason that Joseph would have translated the plates with a typical money-digging stone used by swindlers to part wealth from superstitious fools, while having in his possession for the very purpose of translating by the gift and power of God, one of the rarest, most ancient and sacred relics on earth.
Historical evidence proves he used the money-digger's stone. The church admits it. The story is shattered, leaving in its ruins only the cold harsh truth, that the Book of Mormon was a forgery.
Which is why in his official history he tried to hide the seer stone. I plan to deal with the recent attempt by traditionalists to deny JS used a seer stone in translating. Thanks for commenting.
@@danvogel6802 Thanks for making the video.
my only question is why would anyone writing consider throwing in an alphabet for the language written? i mean i write in english so i would never consider anyone who reads what i write might need an alphabet sheet thrown in so they could decipher what i had written. there is no reason for it even if the message i write is going to someone from the future in a time capsule
That's a great question, especially considering the words showed up in his seer stone in English. But is that your ONLY question? Of far more interest to me is why in the world would Hebrews write in Egyptian, the language of their nemesis?
bowrudder oh that's not all, "reformed egyptian" and why would a hebrew scroll written in reformed egyptian be stuffed in the chest cavity of an egyptian mummy? smith may have been a "pro" in his day but to try something like this now? he would have been shot long before he had married a 14 year old
he was hung up on ancient egypt because he had mummies in his living room and was charging people to walk in and see them then hear the story he made up about them. there are more than a few newspaper stories about his mother taking people into the parlor and showing them and calling one, pharoh and the other his queen
Joseph Smith was a Prophet of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Lol thanks for your firm testimony.
I'm convinced that Joseph customised his BS to fit the credulity of each recipient, not anticipating that all this would later be scrutinised and cross-referenced in detail. The frustrating thing about it all is that the witnesses to these events seem to have investments in it seeming true or threats to their character and lifestyle in denouncing it outright, and logic tells us that there is a great deal of lying and concealment going on. It's almost impossible to know what actually happened, but it seems pretty obvious that both plates and spectacles never existed. However I will point out that if you wanted to construct the perfect device to look at bullet points without the other person seeing them. A device in common use that you already use for 'otherworldly' purposes, a Hat would be ideal.
I'm glad you made the distinction between the occult and some inherently satanic or evil group or doctrine. Occult simply means "hidden" as in hidden or secret knowledge or practices. Many a conversation gets derailed by such confusion.
This is stupid on so many levels. Use the Occam's razor on the story of Joseph Smith. Have God ever used methods like this in the books of the Bible? No! Is it likely He would start now all of a sudden and then use methods which are a carbon copy of the bogus methodology Smith used when looking for treasures?
No doubt. Smith was WRONG on so many levels...
I'm not convinced a 'seer' stone was ever used within the process of translation. I believe Oliver Cowdery who claimed he used the spectacles, which would have been a more intelligible way of deciphering a foreign language, from which Joseph Smith likely eventually became fluent in. Following which time I can maybe understand better the seer stone theory that he needed enlightenment to know whether or not he was rendering a precise translation. A seer stone might have been prepared for that purpose. The spectacles it seems were necessary to interpret the foreign language, whereas the stone simply told him if he was right about what he already translated, therefore making both essential to the process. A seer stone unlikely had messages written upon it, more likely gave him inspiration about if he was doing it correctly since a light was involved. A spitmritual light would simply convey a truth of a promise. I'm guessing eventually he required neither to convey a truth. He was learning how to be a prophet. He obviously needed assistance, including a scribe, but Oliver himself was given license to translate, and I trust his rendering as accurate and probably the most honest. Emma assisted with a lost record which might not have required an it in and thummim. A seer stone likely was the means for a useless record with little purpose perhaps other than to deceive. What we got was the best of the best and if Oliver Cowdery said it necessitated an urim and thummim, I'm inclined to believe him. He was one of the three witnesses which included David Whitmer and Martin Harris. Harris mortgaged his farm for publication of 5000 copies. The Book of Mormon has only gotten more accurate with each rendering. Probably mistakes were made. What was Joseph Smith's education? Why wouldn't he use a Bible to validate parts of it? Assuming he did, of mistakes were made they could be rectified.
The seer stone appear a to serve as a basis of clarification, only.
The it in and thummim seem to me to be the basis by which he wrote what was in a language unfamiliar to him, or to anyone else. I don't believe Oliver Cowdery lied. I believe he told the God's truth. He had no reason to lie, IMO.
Christopher Foote Read Richard Bushman's rough stone rolling and prepare to have your world rocked. He looked in a hat with his seer stone, which cowdery also called the urim and thummim. It doesn't change the truth of the book though, just the translation process.
@@christopherfoote4643hey there, I was Mormon since birth and have been doing research on the church history now intensely now for about 6 months. Joseph had lots of reasons to lie. Joseph benefited by starting the "church" because he saw that it was a way to manipulate followers in a number of ways. One was through plural marriages. He was able to have multiple women (or girls, some who we're only 14) also it is a fact that he married several women who were already married to living men (without there husband's even knowing). He also had relations with this 14 year old while being married to Emma years before he made polygamy a commandment from God. He tricked these women into marring him in a number of ways. He also received attention and money. He was a crook and a fraud. All this and much more is referenced in the CES letters.
@@christopherfoote4643 also there is evidence of multiple book very similar to the book of Mormon published before the book of Mormon. One even speaks of metal plates and a urim and thummim. These book are available in PDF one is the View of the Hebrews. The CES letters also do a good breakdown of the similarities between these books and the BOM.
God wanted to restore his church in America because that's where other false religions were starting up, so he chose a guy looking for money, using seer stones, magic spectacles, nice going.
Logic. Gotta love it.
Joseph Smith Probably accomplished more than these people in the comment section criticizing him.
So did Joseph Stalin, Mao, and Ted Bundy. So what?
Daily Mail reported:
A small onyx stone believed to have been worn in the sacred breastplate of the High Priest of Jerusalem may have been found after being missing for more than 1,000 years.
A sardonyx gem, thought to have been one of two that were set in gold on each shoulder of the breastplate and deemed to be 'forms of divine communication', was discovered in South Africa.
The owner claims the stone was given to a distant ancestor as a reward from the High Priest in 1189 and has been passed from generation to generation of the family since.
Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3789923/Mysterious-onyx-stone-thought-ancient-prophetic-gem-breastplate-High-Priest-Jerusalem.html#ixzz4KReGS8Jz
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebo
cdowis what a sick troll
The quotes here are correct so what's the problem how can Vogel equate this with the occult? The Book of Mormon quotes Jesus Christ in every few verses and testifies of Him what does that prove that it came from the devil? Of course not it gives the clearest explanation of the great Atonement of Jesus Christ and His being the great creator of worlds without end. May Vogel receive his reward for denying the true God.
Never have I equated what JS did with the devil. You should look up the word occult. It's not Satanism. I think you are confused.
There are more questions than answers.
He couldn't even keep his lies straight. No magic glasses, no plates.
That's the picture presented by the missionaries who taught me. What a bait-and-switch scheme. Some buildings had to remove those paintings showing this curated, false history. Just another fail.
It seems that none of these things happened as they said.
Magic rock in a farm hat. Yea, that's ligit. Sign me up.
LOL...Oooff and how can this be believed if God wanted us to read something why would you need hocus pocus tricks, come on people.
Have you read the Book of Mormon? Dan Vogel misses the truth by a mile. He hasn't got a clue
Mr. Vogel; read Acts 2:38-39. Then read Alma 12:9.
That would be irrelevant one could well use acts to write alma one could well have used an older book to write a newer book. It's called a remake doesnt matter. Smith was a pedophile wizard
"Alma" is a false book. No one wants to read that blasphemous abominable rubbish. BYE
Kookoo for koko puffs.
The mathod he used to translating is funny😂😂
It cracks me up every time I see the pictures of the guy with his face in a hat. I guess if you already believe in supernatural nonsense like angels, demons and gods you're just as likely to buy a little more magical nonsense like this. Especially if it lets you sleep with lots more women!
Your name suggests german or swiss forefathers
It would be hilarious if he wasn't responsible for the deaths of hundreds of people, and the church, thousands.
" Smith claimed he saw luminous words on the stone, "
You are not telling the truth. JS made NO such statement. He very deliberately refused to describe the translation process, even to Hyrum and other close associates.
Are you claiming those the stated that words appeared on the stone saw it themselves?
Kent Purdy
Obvious that he did not see the translation process == how could he if JS's face covered the brim of the hat? It was speculation, not based on eyewitness.
cdowis And all the witnesses make the same observation.
Kent Purdy
Please give us a link to the source that all the witnesses saw the words appearing on the seer stone. Even the most rabid antiMormons do not make that claim, but let's see what you got.
cdowis
David Witmer - witness
Marktin Harris - witness
Joseph Knight, Sr - close friend of JS told him
No other eye witness contradicted this added level of detail.
Your question illustrates that you are completely unaware of how JS scried for treasure. It was a visual experience. "Translating" was a type of scrying. And no, I'm not going to look up all those sources. Do it yourself.
Lies and fiction.
Magic glasses they had Google glasses back then??
What evidence proves that he used a stone and hat??
***** Why don't you just read the newspaper or go online to see that the Church has now admitted it.
+fukDa FingZ Several contemporary witnesses, including court records, that he used this method for treasure hunting is evidence that he is familiar with the technique. Then we have several contemporary witnesses that he translated using this method. On the other hand. there is no contemporary account claiming that he used any other technique for translation. This is why even the LDS church admits he did.
Wow joseph smith now has manic spectals what next manic um um teeth like his manic underwear?????
Magic spectals. OK what next
The rock in the hat.
Just think, people actually believe this rubbish...a pair of spectacles.
I totally disagree with Mr. Vogel, the evidence presented is contradictory and questionable in many regards.
The love of God can testify to any son of God that in reality he called Joseph Smith to restore all of the reveletions he was forordain to receive them
+Adrián Benito Just Mormon propaganda. Further, the Love of God is presented thru Jesus, NOT Joe Smith. Jesus is the center of focus for ALL true Christians. Joe Smith is the focus for Mormons...ALL such pseudo-christian groups elevate their celebrity of choice ABOVE the Word of God and the Lord Jesus.
i guess this makes chris namelka a liar just like the rest of the lds
I have been and will always remain a mormon based upon the spirit of God. I have found the spirit of God nowhere near as strong in any other Christian churches! Far too many people fall into the intellectual side of things meaning dates places names correlations and such. All of this means nothing if the spirit reveals to that Joseph was in fact a true prophet.
I pray the true God will deliver you from the deadly delusion that your feelings trump the real Scripture with its anathema against false gospels such as Mormonism and the clear, unbroken 2000 year teaching of Holy Tradition through Christ's Orthodox Church.
yawn. this guy starts out with so many fallacies that he's already rendered himself unbelievable. The church has known and taught since the beginning that Joseph Smith used a seer stone to translate part of the BOM. Despite what mr Vogel blatantly says, the breastplate/spectacles ie Urim and thummin WAS IN FACT used in the translation process. Eventually joseph smith became experienced and confident enough in his revelatory abilities that he didn't even rely on physical stones etc.
just a couple of many old articles on SEER STONES being talked about and taught in the church.
1974, an LDS kids magazine, The Friend teaches the translation process including the seer stone.
"Joseph also used an egg-shaped, brown rock for translating called a seer stone."
"Martin Harris said that on the seer stone “sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by [the one writing them down] and when finished [that person] would say ‘written;’ and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another take its place;"
"Even with the help of the Urim and Thummim and the seer stone, it wasn’t easy to translate the sacred record. It required the Prophet’s greatest concentration and spiritual strength.
Joseph’s friend, David Whitmer, said that sometimes when the Prophet would try to translate, “he was spiritually blind” and could not do it. Joseph explained that when that happened it was because his mind “dwelt too much on earthly things.”
One morning the Prophet was unhappy with his wife Emma over a household matter. When he went upstairs where Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer were waiting to continue with the translation, he still had a bad feeling about his wife in his heart. Joseph tried to translate but not even a syllable of a word came to him; and he knew why. Joseph went downstairs and out into an orchard where he prayed to the Lord.
After about an hour, Joseph returned to the house feeling humble and repentant. He asked Emma to forgive him for his lack of understanding. Then he went back upstairs where he was able to translate without any difficulty.
David Whitmer also understood why the Prophet couldn’t translate just an hour before. He said, “Now we see how very strict the Lord is, and how he requires the heart of man to be just right in his sight before he can receive revelations from him.” www.lds.org/friend/1974/09/a-peaceful-heart?lang=eng
-------------------------
1977
“He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone.” 4
After Martin Harris lost the part of the translation done in 1828, Oliver Cowdery became chief scribe for the entire Book of Mormon as it is now printed. Toward the end of this new work of 1829, David Whitmer on occasion watched and afterwards spoke of the seer stone. 5 Yet as an intimate assistant, Oliver Cowdery stressed the Urim and Thummim in his statements. While editor of the Church newspaper in 1834, he made the comment already quoted on the inspiration of writing for Joseph Smith. Then the Prophet’s exscribe added:"
www.lds.org/ensign/1977/09/by-the-gift-
Harrison Salisbury You are a nutcase. The Church let the fantasy that the Book of Mormon was translated by use of the Urim & Thummin for decades without anything more than occasional offhand comments. And, if it was used at all it was only with the lost 116 pages. Eventually Joseph Smith had the fraud so entrenched that he did not need the stone to perpetrate it.
If God wants to give you a message, He'll just give you the message no need to use peep stones or any other.
Linda Poffenroth You got it. God does not need a peep stone, but Smith did because in that day and with those people the stone actually gave him some credibility. Those people actually believed in magic artifices and those that were effective in using such to deceive them. Smith was well schooled in these arts.
Harrison Salisbury No the Church has not thought that perhaps you need to go to any of the visitors centers and you can see that the church is Still trying to push the bullsh*t Story that he had the plates in front of him when on Lds org it says otherwise why because the Church wants to have plausible deniability if the church was teaching the Rock in a hat they wouldn’t have Pictures that have no rock and no hat anywhere in sight why do they do this because a rock and in a hat doesn’t look Good the LDS LEADERS have been Lying for the past 188 yrs Also they say that black skin is not a curse in the Gospel Topic Essays when in fact their Scriptures say that is exactly what it is see 2 Nephi 5 21 there are other places that make it clear black skin is a curse So the Leaders are saying what exactly that God lied Or that the Spirit lied when he testified of the books truthfullness in which case Toss your testimony or The church leaders Are Lying yet again And Joseph made it all up as he is a proven liar he lied about having multiple wives Shortly before his Death So that Shows that he had no Honor he’d lie about that he’d lie about seeing God which by the way he told no one about it for 12 years You See God and yet you tell no one RIGHT the fact is he married Other men’s wives he married 14 yr old girls which places him in the same class as warren Jeff’s their has been Zero archaeological evidence ever found in the Americas that nephites lamenites ever existed their never will be Hill comorah was where 2 million people died yet their is no evidence such a events happened their was no Horses no elephants No Steel in the Americas during the time its said to have happened The Indians are of Northeastern Asian origins not Jerusalem origins the book of Abraham was not written by Abraham’s own hand proven by every Egyptologist that’s examined the Scrolls even Mormon ones agree the Kinderhook plates were proven in 1980 to be a 19th century production not a ancient record of a descendant of Han son of pharaoh as Joseph claimed they were The facts are provable the Book of Mormon is Simply indefensible Joseph was a com man who practiced conning people with his treasure digging fraud Scheme He took that com to another level with the Book of Mormon The Book of Mormon says that polygamy.is a abomination to God yet D&C says that God approved of it yes it’s referring to the same people in both cases A God that is all knowing Wouldn’t contradict himself So what is the only Conclusion that can be deduced from this God is not its author It’s Joseph’s MYTH also Joseph said it was Nephi who appeared to him this was in PGP as well as a few other publications controlled by Joseph the church now says it was Moroni the problem is that the Lds people have been deceived they deny provable historical facts because they are told you can only trust the Church Well the Church is led by liars not men of God Hate to burst your bubble but these are the facts And no I do not hate the Mormon people they are nice people who are trying to do good They don’t realize they are following Joseph’s gospel not Jesus Gospel if you say that we worship Jesus not Joseph Go watch Jason kunzler BYU Idaho Idaho Speech and it is clear that it’s Joseph that is worshipped keep in mind this is at a church School so the speeches are approved by the brethren yet they allow this Joseph is put up Their with Jesus when in fact he was a Liar an Adulterer who broke every law of D&C 132 I woke up I wanted nothing more than to prove the Church was true it’s Cost me a lot I will Stand with the truth as Ruben clark said if we have the truth it cannot be harmed if we have not the truth It ought to be harmed Well I know they have not the truth So if the truth harms the Church So be it Also their was no Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in 1833 Look it up !!! Yet another lie in the Gospel Topic Essays
Wait ..dude just snuck in that the ancient mound builders where giants..now i have to pay close attention..this guy is a sly one..dropping other tid bits that could jus slip by the layman..hmm
I didn't say the Mound Builders were giants, only that some in the 19th century believed they were. This is reflected in the BofM's description of the Jaredites as large (Mosiah 8:10).
@@danvogel6802 yes and technically you didnt say giant..you said ' of a larg stature' meaning just big..i admit i embellished a bit ..its cool you read your comments..i am actually enjoying your series..thank you for your hard work..
I thought it was john dee? How rediculous! N. America, is Great Britton. Lies, lies, lies. Study people, its only 200 years. Sheesh!