You are 100% correct on building circle track engines for the driver. My friend that is an engine builder does that. One customer had no feeling in his right foot because of an injury. He won multiple championships. My friend watches your videos. Thanks
I had the Pontiac version (#328) of the -12s . The set i had set the records at Bonneville in a Trans Am . A joint effort between Batten heads , Sunoco , Pontiac , and Car Craft magzine set a record that stood for 13 years , 1989 till 2002 . A 18 deg Camaro beat the record by less that a half mile per hour . My heads were taller than the version you show by about a inch !!! Its 232 cc intakes flowed 328 cfm @ .650 with considerable room to improve . In their day these Were the Bad Dudes of Mouse heads . Popular in Competition Eliinator Dragsters , GTP Road Racing , & ruled 410" Sprint car racng and Modifieds . Dam hard head to beat when Abundant Explosive Torque with High RPM Horsepower especially on bigger mouse motors was required . Its only real competitor was the Dart Buick head in the late 80s thru 90s , and then not on a Big Mouse . Its Still a good head capable of 270cc with 380 cfm with Excellant Endurance Features to a engines life with good durability features added in the design . .This was a Professional Level racing head made for the PROS !!! A True Championship Head .
Yes the 12RI castings have a much higher intake port like the Pontiac 328 Bob mentioned. I do have 1 brand new raw casting of the Pontiac I bought in the 80’s. I’d love to find another raw casting and do a set up
@@gisaac3779 what youre looking for is the Brodix -12 "P" castings which were the exact same head as the 328 Pontiac . Good luck in your search for another .
Great content as always. I understand head porting is your specialty but would really like to see you do a video on LSA regarding camshaft choices and selections. I would hope to think others would enjoy your take on this subject as well. Thanks for sharing your valuable knowledge with us. Much appreciated
That Brodix -12 was very similar to the GM 363 casting. I remember these heads and Gaerte Engines was huge when I was coming up. They were in Rochester, IN, about 20 mins south of South Bend, IN, where I'm originally from. In 2019 Gearte was auctioned off and is now located in AZ, and they do some extra nice builds out there for sprint and drag racing. Cool video!
I made the fatal mistake buying an engine from klein engines in phoenix Az. The owner done the toyota indy car engines for years and was a great engine shop. The old guy retires, the son inlaw takes over, got my money, sold me a totally unprofessional engine full of chinese no name junk. Gave a reciept for 4340 parts, used cast junk. Got it to australia had it checked over had to rebuild it had no cylinder pressure. Never again. I had a friend who sold Gaerte engines in the 90,s, they were the best, son takes over company closes. Same as above with kleins
Just was watching an Engine Performance Expo video with Brian Tooley. He said their testing on methanol DI engines showed a 12% power increase by getting the fuel out of the airstream. He was expecting the latent heat to be a bigger factor but it wasn't. Interesting discussion, you'd appreciate it, DI on E85 reduced airflow by 8%.
I’m pretty sure that the higher levels of sprint and modified racing always used both locations on the fuel injector nozzles. With alcohol it requires way more fuel volume due to the reduced latent heat issue. The amount of fuel in the port reduces the amount of air so the down nozzles were a big advance.
That was probably a 410 sprinter. Down nozzles were a second nozzle in the port, up on the injector there is another nozzle where you would expect it. I had a gearte 360 powered sprinter, gearte was awesome.
We had the same heads on our Bonniville roadster, the aluminum ended up going soft, was a good head but had many a laps on them when we got them from a sprint guy
Yes Earl Gaerte passed away and his son took over. Sadly that was the beginning of the end. I have a few of those heads, putting together a 308 Injected Alky SBC with a set of -12RI now
Often times the son(s) just don’t have the drive or energy that the father had. McCandless Performance is another example. Herb was the driving force and when he got ready to slow down they closed the business instead of the children stepping into the leadership roles. Of course the whole landscape of the performance aftermarket was changing and the family may have seen the writing on the wall.
@@truthboomertruthbomber5125 Herbs kids were all doing their own thing his kids a big time investor that brings his dad to auction and buys him cars for the collection i was watching a video he made just last week sometimes the kids get bigger than the parents ever expected that's definitely one situation
I have thoughts on the tapered intake port. Focusing the intake air charge in the bowl to increase pressure do to the ramming effect. Less mass of the air to start again as the valve opens. Kind of an anti reversion port design. Flows less but makes more power at higher rpms. Thanks for sharing.
Interesting history on the old sprint car stuff. Eric, you mentioned ~800hp, which is what I had heard these made back in the day. Now as you showed, these heads don't flow a phenomenal amount of air, more so considering they're a 15 degree head, compared to what's available today. However getting 800hp from them seems pretty good for that air flow. I really like the very racy shaped exhaust ports as well! My question is are there any 23 degree heads capable of supporting an actual dyno verified 800hp+ on a naturally aspirated 410ci SBC? I recall years ago, Joe Sherman building an ~800hp around 400ci SBC using some big 23 degree CNC ported AFR heads, but that was a "maximum effort"* deal with peak power coming in at over 8000rpm. *= ~15 to 1 comp, highly modified tunnel ram, camshaft with way over 280@.050, and IIRC the heads were massaged by Sherman. That was a one off as far as published data engine build. Have you seen such builds to verify it's real, and not just some fudged HP for a magazine article build?
Nice head and I think that head might be from a 410 setup because the 360 class currently runs 23 degree heads in the rules. Speaking of sprint cars my racing season starts February 17th but hunt series doesn't start until March 23rd
Gaerte Engines is still in business they offer engines with a warranty and just picked up the phone. They said they're still wining races and kicking ass.
Someone from Arizona bought the name.....has nothing to do with the original gaerte.....there was an auction several years back....Earls son Joe works I think for Alex bowman(nascar driver)....on his sprint car team
Small blocks have 5 bolts per cylinder. LS is like ford with only 4 bolts per cylinder. Anything above 1200hp, I'm using a small block (and would anyways) otherwise, it's big block.
Use down nozzles on high compression street heads. Wondering how using down nozzles and methanol on a high compresssion street engine. The Intake would still have a carbureted intake on pump gasoline.
Yes! Easier to change the motor than the driver, I crewed on an B-gas 64 Falcon that was over powering the rear suspension and at a track with good air one day I killed a little power by retarding the timing and fattened up the carb and we set our fastest time to date, no wheelie or wheelspin for a change, owner/ driver learned he needed to back half the car as the ladder bar set up was insufficient. Then we went A-gas
You would be surprised how much fuel gets back up the runner when running these heads. In 720 degrees of injection how long is the valve actually open? Less than half of it...... Where do you think the fuel goes when the valve is closed? It is still injecting fuel when the valve is closed. The fuel boils and goes back up the runner cooling it, by design..... Methanol boils at 148 degrees, that intake valve and the runner is a tad warmer than that...... No it wont go that far up the runner, but the latent heat advantage is still there. It also cools the head and chamber, considerably..... It is a trade off, and it obviously works when they break 800-1000 hp quite easily..... Gaerte may still makes engines, and switched to All Pro RE 13 Pro heads years ago......
Everyone is running the all pro head now, -12s were making 7-750 hp, the new heads are mid 900
You are 100% correct on building circle track engines for the driver. My friend that is an engine builder does that. One customer had no feeling in his right foot because of an injury. He won multiple championships. My friend watches your videos. Thanks
I had the Pontiac version (#328) of the -12s . The set i had set the records at Bonneville in a Trans Am . A joint effort between Batten heads , Sunoco , Pontiac , and Car Craft magzine set a record that stood for 13 years , 1989 till 2002 . A 18 deg Camaro beat the record by less that a half mile per hour .
My heads were taller than the version you show by about a inch !!! Its 232 cc intakes flowed 328 cfm @ .650 with considerable room to improve . In their day these Were the Bad Dudes of Mouse heads . Popular in Competition Eliinator Dragsters , GTP Road Racing , & ruled 410" Sprint car racng and Modifieds .
Dam hard head to beat when Abundant Explosive Torque with High RPM Horsepower especially on bigger mouse motors was required . Its only real competitor was the Dart Buick head in the late 80s thru 90s , and then not on a Big Mouse . Its Still a good head capable of 270cc with 380 cfm with Excellant Endurance Features to a engines life with good durability features added in the design . .This was a Professional Level racing head made for the PROS !!!
A True Championship Head .
Yes the 12RI castings have a much higher intake port like the Pontiac 328 Bob mentioned. I do have 1 brand new raw casting of the Pontiac I bought in the 80’s. I’d love to find another raw casting and do a set up
@@gisaac3779 what youre looking for is the Brodix -12 "P" castings which were the exact same head as the 328 Pontiac . Good luck in your search for another .
Great content as always. I understand head porting is your specialty but would really like to see you do a video on LSA regarding camshaft choices and selections. I would hope to think others would enjoy your take on this subject as well. Thanks for sharing your valuable knowledge with us. Much appreciated
David Vizard and Richard Holdener has covered that subject in every single way possible. We come here for expert cylinder head advice.
Love this type of content. Showcases What we thought we knew. Also helps draw a line from where we were to where the industry is now.
i like the idea of the water port between the exhaust valves!
It’s cool seeing this stuff and just learning about it! I swear I grew up in the wrong era.
That Brodix -12 was very similar to the GM 363 casting. I remember these heads and Gaerte Engines was huge when I was coming up. They were in Rochester, IN, about 20 mins south of South Bend, IN, where I'm originally from. In 2019 Gearte was auctioned off and is now located in AZ, and they do some extra nice builds out there for sprint and drag racing. Cool video!
Is the gm 363 head a brodix casting mold? And the hi port 363 bowtie head with portwork how well do these make power? Bit much info on these- thanks
I made the fatal mistake buying an engine from klein engines in phoenix Az.
The owner done the toyota indy car engines for years and was a great engine shop. The old guy retires, the son inlaw takes over, got my money, sold me a totally unprofessional engine full of chinese no name junk. Gave a reciept for 4340 parts, used cast junk. Got it to australia had it checked over had to rebuild it had no cylinder pressure. Never again.
I had a friend who sold Gaerte engines in the 90,s, they were the best, son takes over company closes.
Same as above with kleins
Just was watching an Engine Performance Expo video with Brian Tooley. He said their testing on methanol DI engines showed a 12% power increase by getting the fuel out of the airstream. He was expecting the latent heat to be a bigger factor but it wasn't. Interesting discussion, you'd appreciate it, DI on E85 reduced airflow by 8%.
I’m pretty sure that the higher levels of sprint and modified racing always used both locations on the fuel injector nozzles. With alcohol it requires way more fuel volume due to the reduced latent heat issue. The amount of fuel in the port reduces the amount of air so the down nozzles were a big advance.
That was probably a 410 sprinter. Down nozzles were a second nozzle in the port, up on the injector there is another nozzle where you would expect it.
I had a gearte 360 powered sprinter, gearte was awesome.
We had the same heads on our Bonniville roadster, the aluminum ended up going soft, was a good head but had many a laps on them when we got them from a sprint guy
Thank you for your knowledge and video's USA 🇺🇸
That is probably very good flow given the CSA and valve size, even today.
Yes Earl Gaerte passed away and his son took over. Sadly that was the beginning of the end. I have a few of those heads, putting together a 308 Injected Alky SBC with a set of -12RI now
Often times the son(s) just don’t have the drive or energy that the father had. McCandless Performance is another example. Herb was the driving force and when he got ready to slow down they closed the business instead of the children stepping into the leadership roles.
Of course the whole landscape of the performance aftermarket was changing and the family may have seen the writing on the wall.
his son spent it way faster than it came in
@@truthboomertruthbomber5125 Herbs kids were all doing their own thing his kids a big time investor that brings his dad to auction and buys him cars for the collection i was watching a video he made just last week sometimes the kids get bigger than the parents ever expected that's definitely one situation
i had a set of 10x heads that has that injection set up that i used on a drag car. i just plugged the injection port up and ran a carb.
I have thoughts on the tapered intake port. Focusing the intake air charge in the bowl to increase pressure do to the ramming effect. Less mass of the air to start again as the valve opens. Kind of an anti reversion port design. Flows less but makes more power at higher rpms. Thanks for sharing.
Love this tech stuff
Those numbers were quite a shock!
Interesting history on the old sprint car stuff. Eric, you mentioned ~800hp, which is what I had heard these made back in the day.
Now as you showed, these heads don't flow a phenomenal amount of air, more so considering they're a 15 degree head, compared to what's available today. However getting 800hp from them seems pretty good for that air flow. I really like the very racy shaped exhaust ports as well!
My question is are there any 23 degree heads capable of supporting an actual dyno verified 800hp+ on a naturally aspirated 410ci SBC?
I recall years ago, Joe Sherman building an ~800hp around 400ci SBC using some big 23 degree CNC ported AFR heads, but that was a "maximum effort"* deal with peak power coming in at over 8000rpm.
*= ~15 to 1 comp, highly modified tunnel ram, camshaft with way over 280@.050, and IIRC the heads were massaged by Sherman.
That was a one off as far as published data engine build. Have you seen such builds to verify it's real, and not just some fudged HP for a magazine article build?
The best I ever saw with 23 Deg heads was high 600 area. But that was all cast iron headed stuff
Had a set of 363 casting done by Hendricks on 434 SBC they ran strong in my roadster
I measured my -12 heads they are the 262RI weld tech cnc version. The intake port floor is 1.25” off the deck… just an FYI
Nice head and I think that head might be from a 410 setup because the 360 class currently runs 23 degree heads in the rules. Speaking of sprint cars my racing season starts February 17th but hunt series doesn't start until March 23rd
they should run some type of atomizer log
Gaerte Engines is still in business they offer engines with a warranty and just picked up the phone. They said they're still wining races and kicking ass.
Someone from Arizona bought the name.....has nothing to do with the original gaerte.....there was an auction several years back....Earls son Joe works I think for Alex bowman(nascar driver)....on his sprint car team
Oh man that's cool I used to go with my biological father a long time ago to watch Sprint car and dirt car races
I had the pontiac heads for a small block chevy that motor would rev 8000rpm by accident!
Charge cooling big advantage of carbs.
Small blocks have 5 bolts per cylinder. LS is like ford with only 4 bolts per cylinder. Anything above 1200hp, I'm using a small block (and would anyways) otherwise, it's big block.
I had a set on my super late model worked ok
The valves doesn't seem that big either considering how much everything has been moved around, could one fit this head on a 4.030-060" bore?
Use down nozzles on high compression street heads. Wondering how using down nozzles and methanol on a high compresssion street engine. The Intake would still have a carbureted intake on pump gasoline.
Earl Gaerte passed away in 2011 at the age of 67 years old.
Yes! Easier to change the motor than the driver, I crewed on an B-gas 64 Falcon that was over powering the rear suspension and at a track with good air one day I killed a little power by retarding the timing and fattened up the carb and we set our fastest time to date, no wheelie or wheelspin for a change, owner/ driver learned he needed to back half the car as the ladder bar set up was insufficient.
Then we went A-gas
are those the brodix heads with the ex valves offset- aka not in line with the intake valve?
Joe Gaerte ..Put out some nice engines...
Should do testing on a set of little cheif heads and intake for sbc dyno comparison and flow tests
I flowed the little Cheif’s and did a video. Dyno would be tough because both require a ton of special parts.
@@WeingartnerRacing I'll have to find the video and see how they flowed compared to others
Good job and very interesting. I sent you a similar set of heads, could you do a short video on mine? Add to my bill. Thanks
Those low lift numbers low? If you raise the floor via epoxy how much do you think it would help?
Gearte is still around ateast their website is still put and they have pics of some ls garbage on there
"I don't port cast iron." you should end every video like that
I have the last 8months
He does!! 😊
And he doesn’t! 😂😂😂
why is the hole only in 1 port?
It’s in all.
You would be surprised how much fuel gets back up the runner when running these heads. In 720 degrees of injection how long is the valve actually open? Less than half of it...... Where do you think the fuel goes when the valve is closed? It is still injecting fuel when the valve is closed. The fuel boils and goes back up the runner cooling it, by design..... Methanol boils at 148 degrees, that intake valve and the runner is a tad warmer than that...... No it wont go that far up the runner, but the latent heat advantage is still there. It also cools the head and chamber, considerably..... It is a trade off, and it obviously works when they break 800-1000 hp quite easily..... Gaerte may still makes engines, and switched to All Pro RE 13 Pro heads years ago......