I agree that the pop os bug wasn't Linus' fault. I do like that they're doing this series though, because it does highlight some challenges that are obscured by experience for those in the Linux community that have been using this stuff for years.
And unfortunately there is that 2% vocal minority who wil evanglize how great and easy linux is the propmtly turn around and yell at newbies for not knowing "the basics" telling them to go back to windows...
@@graphicsaw2657 The one most important basic with any computing device when it prompts you, when reading instructions... is READ AND UNDERSTAND before proceeding! There is no valid excuse not to! Ignorance is not an excuse, nor a virtue!
@@Bob-of-Zoid That's not really how people use their devices though, whether it's a computer, a phone, heck, even a toaster. There are some common expectations regarding how for example software should behave, and having xorg and your entire desktop uninstalled when installing Steam isn't one of them. I think we can excuse him skipping an unintelligible wall of text in that case. The RTFM-crowd is also missing the point that a lot of the documentation isn't really geared towards newer users.
to be fair to Linus, you did the same thing with no issues because they fixed the issue after he did it and before you did it. I need to ask some S76 how they found the bug because that would give a better picture to the timeline.
i also feel that, as a fellow newb, if warnings did one [or more] of the following it would be helpful [it's a LOT of word vomit for us n00bs]: flashing text, color changed text, highlighted text. any of those would drastically help new users [or all users, even though the more experienced ones can read all of it and understand the commands]. i am NOT saying Linus didn't screw up, but i've made some errors based on word vomit blinding me to the error before...
System warnings are colored. What happened with linus is their was a bug with apt. That shouldn't have happened and is extremely rare giving how Debian is.
Terminal colors are not a certainty, apt is used over SSH and all sorts of other situations where you can only rely on plain text. In this case I feel this was Linus' fault for acting like a child and not reading the one line that he was confirming, not the entire package list but the one line that said "This can potentially harm your system, are you sure?" (or very similar, going from memory) A statement like that is not cryptic and it was not buried in a wall of text, it was literally the last line above the cursor where he typed "Yes, do as I say"
@@richterman3962the thing is extremely rare bugs happen with every new Linux install. It's a different bug each time, they're all extremely rare, but overall it's common to encounter a bug or two your first time using Linux. This is even worse than a common bug, because there will be no results in Google for it.
Great reaction to the LTT linux challenge! The team at Pop! OS messed up there. Dependencies are one of the greatest strengths and weaknesses of linux. Androids fix for the weakness was to have each App walled off so that dependencies would also have to be kept with the App. Yes it means more versions of the same libraries are included and take up more space, but space is cheap these days so its an acceptable solution. A big part of the problem Linus had with Pop! OS was he still has the expectation of "Oh I'm in linux of course I need to use command line/terminal". It is a perception thing. If he had needed to use a command line "fix" in windows he would have been more hesitant and careful. This is where the GNU/linux community needs a stable distro that is absolutely zero terminal requirement and generally more locked down so that general users can genuinely try to break it and not succeed. A distro with a goal of: by the time a person can break the system, they will need to know it well enough that they no longer need it to be locked down. It should probably also be GUI and mouse centric with the idea of minimal number of clicks/button presses to do everything they may need to - and I include every press of a keyboard button here, making terminal less efficient. Of course the problem with doing this is that it just adds to the confusion of how many distros there are to pick from.
@@dansanger5340 Yeah, tell someone in 1995 they need an extra copy of each DLL for every program that uses it, on their 20 MB HDD. Hell, tell someone on Windows today that they need to install the .NET framework again for every program they have that uses it. Not even MacOS does things that way.
A training wheels linux aimed at children and entry level normies would be neat, might even exist out there somewhere under the pile of over 9000 distros. As for the distro confusion that is caused by the community's branding. There is simply too much emphasis on Linux such that entry level normies (and reviewers) can't even tell the difference between Linux for consoles and Linux for PC without doing research. Imagine if all the Chromium based browsers were branded like Linux distros. You'd have Edge Chromium, Chrome Chromium, Vivaldi Chromium, Brave Chromium, Opera Chromium, Chromium Chromium, etc... To give a non-tech example: scrambled eggs, poached eggs, baked into a cake eggs, whipped into mayonnaise eggs, etc... This is how Linux and it's distros look from the outside
@@dansanger5340 Oh yeah, the "basic software engineering" convention that neither Windows nor Linux nor macOS follow. I'm sure you know better than the desktop OS engineering teams at Microsoft and Apple as well as the developers behind the OS that has a 97% server market share.
There was a systemd update that we did, and Launchpad didn't build an i386 package for libudev because that version of systemd wasn't on the Launchpad i386 allowlist. I'm not sure how apt reasoned about the proper solution to the missing i386 dependency being removing the entire OS, but the systemd package was fixed shortly after (within hours), and apt has been patched not to allow removing essential packages. It would have been important for anyone using that ISO to update the package lists before installing Steam. In future releases, Pop will be using its own apt repository rather than Launchpad, so we'll have more control over the guarantee that packages are distributing from the same CI setup that QA performs tests with.
Thank you so much for commenting and sharing that information. I do have a question, it sounds like that would make PopOS a soft fork by not using Launchpad directly, is that an accurate assessment?
@@michael_tunnell We've long had our own in-house packaging CI generating an in-house apt repository for QA to perform tests on each development branch, with a staging repository for testing all of our changes before releasing them. This system automatically sends source tarballs to the Pop Proposed PPA on Launchpad whenever new commits land on the master branch of a GitHub repository. Anything that reaches the master branch has already been validated by QA from a staging branch based on the name of the PR to a GitHub repository. But while everything in master is considered production-ready, we do have a manual process to choose when we release all the staged changes to the release repositories. While Steam may have worked perfectly with no dependency conflicts in our in-house apt-repository with no missing i386 libraries, we got caught with our pants down not realizing that systemd had been released to our release PPA without any i386 libraries built by Launchpad's service. And Steam also isn't the first thing you think about testing when updating systemd. So the change with Impish is merely going to have everyone's package lists point to our in-house apt repository rather than the Launchpad PPA. It's a better solution long term to have our own service. We have better control over what can be built, and there's no point sending source tarballs to a remote build server when we've already built the packages on our own Threadripper build server at the company. QA has also added Steam to the checklist for systemd updates. And they've been working on an automated QA system that'll regularly run automated tests on our repositories to catch issues more quickly, or before they get to release.
@@mmstick Unfortunately some damage is done with the video. I guess if some people want to switch to Linux and see that issue with Pop!_OS, even after it was fixed, then they tend to avoid it still and even the disclaimer in the comments and snippet added in the end after sponsor and ending credits will not be so noticeable.
The apt patch doesn't work, clearly. Couple of weeks back I landed in the exact situation as Linus and nuked my desktop environment. How? Well there were multiple python installs for some reason in ubuntu - 2.7, 3.7,3.8, 3.9 of which i only installed 3.9. So i thought why not just keep one version and remove the rest. Man i couldn't have been more stupid. I used apt to remove all python installs except 3.9 and ended up nuking my DE. Only difference is I actually was able to reinstall the DE through some very basic CLI stuff and browsing on stackoverflow (which I could've never even considered if it had happened when i first started out) obviously the file system was perfectly functioning. But it just shows that while Linux drags macOS and Windows through the mud at a number of tasks, it's fundamentally flawed at a number of places with regards to the user experience. P. S. I don't think I'm a beginner considering the fact that I've been daily driving ubuntu for almost a year now. I'm definitely learning new stuff everyday.
@metallica fan, I understand your point of view and I agree with some of it. I just wanted to point out that beginners don't know anything about Python and likely wouldn't care how many versions are installed so they likely would not run into the issue you did since they likely wouldn't attempt such a change. It also depends on the distro you are using, just because it's fixed in Debian Testing or Pop!_OS doesn't mean it's fixed in Ubuntu for example. It's also likely not fixed in Debian Stable either. Upgrade delays are kind of common with Ubuntu / Debian family.
As a new full time Linux user, I recommand for persons who want to switch to Linux to try Linux distributions (Ubuntu flavors, Linux Mint or Manjaro to begin) with a second computer (not the main machine) and make search on internet wiki or best with Linux videos like in TH-cam. I did for myself in my TH-cam channel a linux playlist Tips and so you can do. I thank all the TH-camrs that make interesting videos like you and DT, Switched to Linux, Average Linux users, and many others
I have recently switched to linux myself (this past weekend) and didnt have any of the issues on Pop os that he is. I actually am having alot of fun on it. There are a few issues i am having with it such as 2nd hdd or my mining software not wanting to run. So thats my recomendation. Feels like a cross between MacOs and Android.
I tried switching to Linux Mint yesterday, after 6 hours I gave up. I had horrible experience. And I'm not a stranger to CLI, programming and stuff. First hour I tried to make my second monitor work, as It wouldn't, turns out that installing nvidia drivers from the gui manager completely bricked, and that;s why I couldn't make linux find my second monitor. (using laptop). After that I wanted to fix the issue with my brightness being up to 100% all the time on my OLED laptop screen - turns out linux doesn't directly support changing the brightness of OLED... So I tried actually writing some scripts to have change brightness (xrandr) connected to one of the special FN keys on the keyboard. Doesn't work - apparently ALL FN keys are ACPI keys except for these 2... Fuck. After that I just created a shortcut for setting stiff xrandr brightness to .5 and .9 on f4 and f5. Instead of FN key while trying to do that I accidentaly pressed ctrl+alt which threw me out of GUI into command line and when trying to come back to GUI I received an error and then I just gave up and turned off the laptop. Another issue I would have to face would be the fan curve that cannot be changed apparently for my CPU in AERO 15. Horrible experience, 2/10.
@@michael_tunnell So I actually decided to give it a try today after your comment. And much to my surprise everything works. Brightness settings, peripherals, refresh rate, resolution etc. Until I installed lutris, wine and did a first reboot. This time ironically it was the main laptop display that gave up, after 15 minutes of troubleshooting it turned out to be a broken config file in the X11 folder. But why? I literally didn't touch it at all. I fixed it though :) Anyway now everything works, Lutris games are stuttery for some reason but I'm gonna figure it out later (I have a high end laptop so it shouldnt be the hardware). So yeah, I'm not removing my second boot windows for now, but we are on a good path :) One question though, if Mint so broken that almost nothing worked out of the box for me, why is it recommended so much?
Agreed. Also the warning message needs to be far more explicit. Essential package? So they might be forgiven for thinking that merely some functionality might break. Now if you flag specific packages like -desktop, -session, -shell, -mesa , -xorg/-wayland, et_al. with a warning message upon attempted removal like: "The following are system critical packages that this Linux distro depends on! Only remove if you have alternatives you wish to install in mind, know very well what you're doing and have installed, setup and are using a Snapshot (read Restore Point if you've previously used Windows) program such as TimeShift or SystemBack in case of disaster. If you wish to continue type the following: "I understand the risks and wish to proceed with this dangerous operation."
App installs shouldn't be mucking around with shared libraries, period, especially uninstalling them. This is not a question of better messaging. It's horrendously bad design.
My God that wall of text. There's no reason apt needs to spit out that wall of text without some kind of "verbose" flag. The only information most newbies really need is a progress bar that tells them something is happening. When you're about to do something potentially destructive, then you print: "You are about to do something potentially destructive. Do not do this unless you know exactly what you're doing." I wouldn't blame Linus, I probably would have done the same exact thing.
It literally said that on the last line before the confirmation! Not buried in the list of packages to be removed. And no it isn't a "wall of text" it is a list of packages and you cannot knowingly confirm, 'Yes remove these packages' if you don't have the list of packages.
@@mytech6779 Please don't ever become a UX designer or, better yet, please take a UX class and see if it changes your perspective. It displays that on the second-to-last line (the last line, where the message actually should be, doesn't convey that anything bad is going to happen), but it was in no way separated from the wall of text above it. It had a single line break (not even a paragraph break), it wasn't color-coded in any way, it didn't use caps lock for any words, it followed a wall of easily 100 lines of output, and importantly, even if you do read it, the message absolutely underplays the severity of what you're about to do. "You are about to do something potentially harmful." More appropriate would be something like "This operation is likely to cause serious, irreparable problems unless you know exactly what you're doing. To continue, type 'I know what I'm doing, and I understand the consequences'". Then add some appropriate spacing, color-coding, and capitalization to make sure the message stands out as important. The one shown in the video fails every single aspect of being a warning sign: it doesn't grab your attention, it's vague, and it downplays the severity of what it's warning you about. As someone noted below, it's easy for the average user to just assume this is just typical installation jargon, just phrased differently because you're on a different OS than the one you're used to. Given you're trying to install Steam, "Yes, do as I say" is easily interpreted as "Yes, install Steam". From the average user's point of view, you're just installing Steam, so there's absolutely no reason to believe anything harmful (let alone this catastrophic) would follow from this command. Most people's eyes will just glaze over from the wall of text, and there's zero reason to expect a typical user would or even should read any of it. This is the 2020s, not 1990; installing such basic, common software packages should expect next to nothing from the user. Imagine for a second a user tried to install Steam on Windows and it spat out a wall of text consisting of dozens of lines of text reading "C:\whatever\whatever" which at the very end, separated by nothing but a line break (not even a paragraph break) said "This is potentially harmful. Continue anyway?" And just gave you a checkbox "Yes, continue" and a "Next" button. And then if you checked the box and clicked "Next", you bricked your OS. And now imagine that this was a widespread issue. Of course you know what would happen. Hundreds of thousands of users would destroy their OS, it would make international headlines, and Windows would be the subject of relentless derision for years for how something as basic as trying to install Steam could break it. Even if it didn't succeed, you would probably see Microsoft hit with a class action. Casual users would be genuinely afraid just to use Windows, and that would precipitate from that one screw-up. Microsoft would spend years trying to regain the trust of its users. The bug itself in Pop! is understandable if extremely serious, and it's acceptable and even a good thing to give the user to break their system if they genuinely want to. What's not acceptable is to let them do that without clearly and very prominently let the user know what they're doing, and it's wildly unacceptable to do that for such a common use case of e.g. "installing Steam".
Why is it surprising? It's a TH-camr with 14 million + subscribers doing a big Linux Challenge. I would be more surprised if there weren't a lot of reaction videos. 😃
you ahve had the best take on the event so far. props. i'm going to see if you have other content on linux use, cause i don't feel like you'll be demeaning.
thank you very much for the kind words. I do have more videos on Linux including a video podcast talking about Linux News called This Week in Linux. I also do another show called Destination Linux which you can find that and other stuff at destinationlinux.network. I also plan to make a lot more general Linux videos soon too. :D
I am a Linux user since Suse 6.3 which is now well over twenty years old. I have been using Linux as my daily driver at home for at least eight years (So i don' t run Windows anymore for that long) However; I tend to avoid the terminal. I see the terminal once every three months for five minutes tops and I think that is fine. The reality is that the massive majority of people using computers do not want to do terminal, do not need to and can't. Those users want to do everything visual (similar to me). What got me really, REALLY annoyed was that when Linus borked Pop!_OS the response of _some_ (I am talking to you Jupiter Broadcasting) decided to double down on the terminal; pushing it as 'easy' and useful regardless of distro. It annoyed me because it was a clear disconnect of the type of users Linus is representing here. People need to get it into their heads that the typical computer user will not invest any amount of time in learning the terminal and that should be fine. A Linux distro mend for easy entrance should and often can be used with minimal terminal usage. That said; I am pretty certain that the developers of Pop!_OS probably banged their heads pretty hard against the wall seeing their O.S. dismantle itself on a big tech channel. In Linus his defense;; installing steam on the O.S. should have been a snap and it wasn't. Worse over;; a lot of gamers and the like interested in Linux because of Linus will see this first video and immediately respond with ' nope! not my O.S.' and ignore it as a result which makes me sad. That said; I like being in the minority. Windows is big and as a result far heavily targeted by criminals. (Linux is certainly not immune, just less targeted because of its smaller desktop user base)
thank you very much for your understanding and perspective. i'm sort of shocked someone with as much Linux experience as you doesn't use the terminal more. i understand though, i learned programming in the mid-80's and haven't used it much at all since 1990. while i'm more computer [and programming] literate than "most" users, i don't want to HAVE to learn a lot of terminal. i used Unix at work for a while [a REALLY basic UI/GUI] years ago but, until last Sunday, i had not used Li/U-nix at all for several years. i do wish that Linux were a bit more "noob friendly" and could/would/was a larger % of users [even if only 15%] instead of the very small amount it is. i'm actually learning Linux so i can swap both sets of parents old computers to Linux...so i won't have to fix them EVERY time i visit. versions
@@kipcamp8976 I already switched my parents over to Linux. Their basic usage profile consists of reading e-mail, browsing the web, watching YT videos, watching series via their online steaming subscription. And, in case of my father, creating music via his M-Audio hardware. My support calls went down 80 percent.
@@kipcamp8976 Swapped my 83 yr old mother to Solus Mate on a cheap ebay laptop almost a year ago with Skype, Spotify and Firefox which she was used to using on Win 7 before and had no issues for almost a year now; Linux is great for geeks who terminals and zipping around with key shortcuts but theres no excuse for not being noob friendly with mouse and GUIs since this is the way MOST people use computers and is always a good indication of how competent the people behind an OS are...
@@tfksworldoflinux once i'm comfortable enough with it, i plan on transitioning them. but with only 2 days usage i'm not there yet. but VERY glad it worked for you, it gives me hope that i'll have a similar experience.
@@fiddledotgoth i was considering Solus, Mint, Elementary, Pop, Zorin, ok, i was looking into roughly 15 distros, trying to decide which i could learn easily AND transition my parents to. i do love that in Manjaro it's not too hard to set it to auto-update.
That was great, learned a few things. The multiple display thing is persistent with a friend's setup with an old TV and a monitor. The login screen tends to be on the TV, even if the monitor is set as primary.
I have this same issue on dual boot. Bottom screen displayport, top hdmi. Nothing will show unless I unplug the displayport monitor. Is it a consistent issue across anything debian based?
Linus is 100% right about everything. When I switched to linux a year ago, I had all the same problems. More, actually. And none of them should've existed. It should all be smooth and seamless. IF you want to attract new users, and if you want to tell people that Linux works fine, and that they can use it all the time. And not really notice much difference. Right now, that's wrong. It's always been wrong. You need a distro that is flawless in setup of all the common tasks. You can stop there, and let people learn on their own. But for all the most common stuff, it needs to be as easy (or easier) than windows. That's how you get people hooked and increase the user base. Oh and they don't wanna use the command line, so make it so that it's never ever necessary. But it's still there and they can if they want to.
@@AlligatorAli Many of them are dumb fanboys. But some of them know this is a problem. There are probably a few distros where you won't run into those problems. I can say for sure that manjaro isn't one of them. But there might be something like PopOS or Zorin that doesn't have any of the usual linux problems when you first install it. Nearly all linux distros aren't smooth and flawless for a new person. They all seem to throw weird, unnecessary error messages at you, that you don't understand. It's a major flaw in linux.
Windows is not as easy as it seems, the only difference is that applications are available. The amount of complications and bugs with various system stuff is pretty equal. The problem is that Linux has to be better than Windows, not just as buggy. There needs to be incentive to leave Windows and for some people there is the incentive, like privacy and security, and others there isn't because Linux isn't obviously better, it is better in many areas but not overwhelmingly. I agree Linux needs to improve a lot, I also agree that avoiding the terminal should be a priority but that doesn't mean Linux is not ready for some.
Windows also throws weird unnecessary errors at users. But I agree, expectations are much higher for Linux because we have to deal with users expecting Linux to be Windows but better and that's a very difficult task. MacOS vs Windows is not a case of which is overwhelming better, both suck in their own way. Both of these OSs are equally crap but they are crap in different ways so they appeal to different audiences. The problem for Linux is that expectations are higher to be better than macOS has. I know that sounds kind of weird but it's true. MacOS is garbage for gaming so the gaming community ignores it. MacOS is great for creative tools so people prefer it for that. Windows has the same level of pros and cons. Yet people accept the issues, I mean audio in macOS is a joke yet people accept buying 3rd party plugins as if it's normal. I think people would also accept the quirks of Linux if the apps they wanted were available.
@@michael_tunnell Yeah they probably would. But windows' weird unnecessary errors seem less critical than the ones in linux. When windows throws an error, typically it's not something that's going to crash your system and force a reinstall of the OS. Like linus pointed out in his videos, that's not the case with linux. It asked him some question that it had no business asking, and when he answered wrong, he was screwed. That's how you keep your OS from seeing mass adoption. I realize that may be the fault of that particular distro, and others may do a better job. But to sum it up I'd describe it as a lack of "polish". Windows and Mac are polished nearly to a shine in that area. I'm thinking of leaving manjaro because of weird, minor errors and breakages. Seems like there's always a new one.
Let's just get this out of the way first, I like both windows and Linux, especially Linux Mint, but all the same, I don't daily drive any Linux distro, and here's mostly why... I have used Linux for many years, on an off and on basis, on a few different distros, and although the desktop experience has gotten better, by a long shot, I never had internet on any of those devices, so doing something as simple as playing music was almost always a headache before codecs became mainstream, with the exception of Linux Mint, which is why I love it so much. To be clear, each time I used Linux in general, not just mint, I had many problems, mostly related to the fact that what I might want to do requires internet to install and set up the required plugins and add-ons, and even something as simple as a distro that is purported to include the WINE compatibility layer, out of the box, which would probably solve 75% if not more, of my hesitancy to use Linux as a daily driver OS, didn't work for me... Why didn't the WINE compatibility layer work??? Because, it was purported BY THE HOMEPAGE OF THE DISTRO to work out of the box, when in reality it wanted more packages installed, which again implies that I have an internet connection... I'm not firing up my hotspot in bumfck nowhere, where I live, and waiting hours, just to do what I can do in windows fairly easily by just clicking install on whatever app I'm trying to use... But, you might say, "what about dualbooting Windows and Linux"??? And in answer to that, I say that I have tried to do that many times, and 99 times out of 100, have had to reinstall windows AND Linux, if I wasn't frustrated with Linux yet, of course, and why would I have to nuke and pave after possibly a month or so??? Some kind of error 7 or error 9 or something, I forget what exactly, as it's been forever ago since I tried a dualboot... someone told me when I mentioned it though that basically my bootloader just out of the blue broke, is whet the error meant... Also, for those of you who might say that I haven't been there through the really tough times of Linux and trying it out, let me just say this, my first Ubuntu version was either 4 or 5.x and my hard drive was formatted as NTFS... Do I even need to go any further than that??? If so, then here you go, back then, I forget which Linux version it was, there was a solution released, but the author even admitted that it was janky and had a high probability of damaging your files, besides the fact that I had to add that unknown repository to my list, just to apt-get or use a package manager to install it... So yeah, I've seen Linux come a long way since then, but still has a lot of problems come up, I'd rather not have to deal with...
This video was an excellent reaction to Linus' efforts. (including other people's attempts to install linux without much prior experience.). A great response, Michael.
@@michael_tunnell indeed. makes one wonder what we can do about it. i mean one of them is even "itsfoss" which should have linux experienced editors (?) maybe the article authors could be contacted to present the answer differently/ more accurately? i dunno feel like something should be done about those results 🤔
I loved your video and the way you explain things. You make a Linux noob like myself feel at ease. I'll subscribe and watch some of your videos. Maybe I'll pick some things up. I daily drived windows since my first computer build on Windows 98. It was over the last few years that I got sick of windows. The amount of spying that's going on. The integration of cortana all added up to me looking into Linux. I started with Mint as a beginner option and am now daily driving it. I only have Windows installed because I can't get the latest Assassins Creed games to run on Linux.
Thank you very much for the kind words! I'm glad you enjoyed it! Thank you for subscribing as well. I hope my content does help you along your Linux journey. I'd also suggest checking out my podcasts This Week in Linux and Destination Linux on TuxDigital.com
@@michael_tunnell I certainly will. I've actually been looking for a Linux podcast. There's so much to learn with Linux but becoming less windows dependant makes it all worthwhile.
32:45 Can't say I agree with this. For the average user, there is nothing to be amazed about. They don't care if it's "amazing that it's working on another platform", they just want it to work. They aren't computer enthusiasts, they aren't Linux enthusiasts, the computer is just a tool to them, and they just simply want their tool to work.
Right, but when Call of Duty doesn't work on MacOS, nobody goes saying that MacOS is bad. It's just obvious that stuff made for one OS isn't going to work in another, it's not the OS's fault. In contrast, you see people counting it as a mark against linux that when it defies all logic to make it happen anyway, it doesn't defy it hard enough.
@@Poldovico Again though, you are ignoring the fact that the average user doesn't care about that. Whether it's impressive or not only matters to enthusiasts, for the vast majority of users, all they see AND care about is if it works or not.... and how much of a hassle it is to get it to work. You will NEVER get people to want to switch to Linux if your argument is "Well, yeah, X and Y and Z does not work, and A and B and C need some fiddling before they will work..... but it's really impressive that they even work at all!"
@@Cyber_Akuma But then you wouldn't tell people not to switch to windows from mac because "pages doesn't work". It's true, but it's not how anything is expected to function. You switch to windows, you use Word.
@@Poldovico Pretty much, I would. If someone has some mac-only software they like to use, and the Windows equivalent is not good enough, then switching from MacOS is not a viable option. That being said, there is a Mac version of Office, and Windows equivalent of Pages in Word. I mean, Linux has that too with Open/Libre Office. That's a bit more generic software than a specific videogame though.... or many specific videogames. A lot of productivity software exists across all the platforms (Though if you are used to a specific one on MacOS/Windows/Linux that is not on the others than switching might not be a viable option)... but gaming on Linux leads a lot to be desired.
I have had issues with Linus Tech Tips vids, but, speaking as someone who has tried Linux plenty of times over the last 20 years and given it up each time as too much like hard work, I have some sympathy with Linus. It's very nice to see a measured response like this from a Linux expert that isn't whiney or foamy mouthed. Liked. I also liked the fact you spotted the Tom's Hardware and Techradar webiste similarities. Future Publishing is (was?) a UK company that has been running for many years, used to do many print magazines on all sorts of hobbies before things went digital. They had at least two print publications that I can recall back in the day called (wait for it) PC Gamer (yes, it's the same one) and PC Format. Both magazines were so similar it was hilarious (the latter had a bit more of a PC generalist approach, as the names imply). It's still working for Future, 20 years later, across the internet. I don't use any of their websites for almost any advice at all, they are a bunch of shills. They were back in the print days, still are now.
I think I had the weird multimonitor bug and it was the two screens overlapping in the settings. This is mainly just the live mode that has minimal drivers.
I want to mention this in defence of Linus for saying installing discord is difficult. Flatpak, Snap and AUR are all disabled by default at least in manjaro and if you don't know that it will seem like something you need to go do through terminal provided you are both tech savvy and new to linux. The fact that you need to change settings for a "software shop" is far from obvious for someone just jumping into linux. Or even knowing what flatpak or snap means. I remember my first try ending up installing another software manager to install discord and ending up with a version that seemed to always need an update that I could not get. I know a little better now but I think it's my 4th time installing manjaro now.
I hadn't used Linux in a couple decades (Red Hat 5.2) and recently installed Mint on an old laptop a friend was retiring. Utterly shocked at how much easier everything is. It just works.
How nice for you... I recently installed Mint 18.3/20.2 (and several other distros) on an old XP laptop and neither my laptop speakers nor my router NAS is working properly. On Mint 18.2 the NAS access at least was ok, but the latest OS updates broke it and searching for a fix has been unproductive (I found a limited workaround by guesswork, but it's still broken). Like the sound, streaming media was already a problem, but maybe that laptop is just too weak, although it's over a good wireless connection, so you'd think streaming might work (it does in XP). Seems that in general, the idea of reviving old hardware via Linux has been way oversold, at least for a noob.
@@paintedjaguar Agreed that it's unlikely for me to learn much from a sample of one. But Red Hat in 1998 was like me trying to do vortex calculus while drunk. Linux Mint approached "plug and play."
@@qwkimball Well, I remember setting up various options in DOS to make the most of limited memory, etc. but while that was tedious, there was no real mystery about it. Everything was fairly predictable, and most things were well documented.
@paintedjaguar The old hardware thing is true but there is a limit to how far you can go back with modern era distros. An XP era machine means very very old so it might need something focused to support it. I'll be able to offer advice with more details about the hardware like what CPU it has and what model the device is. But keep in mind, there is only so far back modern Linux will go regardless, there may be a case that you'd need to use a more era centric distro.
I know I'll get flamed for this, but I'll take a week of typing at the linux command line (in the shell of your choice) over a single day with Powershell. I understand that Linus didn't want to do either, and no question that Windows is the default platform for PC gamers, but *nix just feels right to me and has done for more years than I care to recall.
@@michael_tunnell yeah I did in both cases so I'm guessing it's an Nvidia thing. It's easy to resolve but it was irritating. I've also had issues with touchscreens in a vm and Linux before and even once I fixed the install and setup my multi monitor I had issues with it constantly resetting my monitors 8n the wrong layout which I still haven't resolved I just put a easy to run script on desktop to reset it everytime it happens (which is often)
Fundamentally the issues Linux has for new users are exactly the things that Linux enthusiasts use Linux for. Average users don't want to "tweak" everything ( in fact the average user doesn't want to tweak anything, at least not at first ) they want to accomplish their tasks easily. A good OS gets out of the way, Linux is constantly demanding your attention and getting a system setup is still a multi day affair even for people ( like me ) who have been jumping in and out of Linux for over 15 years. And even after you get it working updates can destroy that. Also the fact that there is not 1 Linux but many effectively makes choosing a distro impossible without doing tons of research. Windows driver hell is extremely rare today but compared to solving even basic issues on Linux without digging through pages of terminal commands ( many out of date ) and text based config files does not feel very modern, cutting edge or superior to windows. Also a lot of your response is "you can do x by doing y " but a new user will never know what y is a priori.
thank you! :D my first reaction video being good is great to hear. :) The LTT Part 2 video hasn't published yet. I should probably rename this video since its a Part 1 for them not for me.
Linus is not the first to make fun of the name Pop!_OS. When I first came across it, I too was not a fan when I saw it written out in a suggestion from someone in the Linux community. That being said, it being my Linux distro of choice has changed my name about the name. I kind of love it now. It is unique. Similar to how Apple leans in to the notch because it makes their devices easily distinguishable from the rest, I have come to love the quirkiness of the name and the space theme of the distro. I know a lot of folks want the name changed. Personally, I hope it stays. Anyways... everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I think there was already a fix for the steam download when the video was recorded. The terminal cited 84 packages in need of an upgrade, not including the 88 to be removed. The issue was that the installer used a slightly older, known stable image.
It’s been a while so the details are a bit messy in my memory but I remember talking to a System76 rep and they said it was found and fixed without just a few hours. They also said that it was the case that Linus had downloaded the flawed ISO which is just very unlucky terrible timing. If he had updated the system before doing that it would have included the fix but of course that didn’t happen. The biggest issue is that Debian had known about the problem with “do as I say” for a decade because it was reported and discussed for years trying to get them to make it less straight forward to do what Linus did. The fact that Debian changed the system only after millions of people saw Linus hit it is completely unacceptable. It’s better than never addressing it but it’s a giant facepalm 🤦♂️ to have ignored that for a decade 🤷♂️
I will agree that it's the small minority of Linux users who are vocally toxic about things like gatekeeping, but at the same time it has to be considered that Linux is a very small user base comparatively, and it's already seen as unapproachable by most people. So any issue they find will be more likely to push them away since they were likely apprehensive from the start. When a first time user goes to a forum to ask a question about how to do something and is met with a response about how they "don't even know the basics" or something to that effect, it becomes an experience that can quickly make someone decide that it's time to quit and go back to a place where, even if there are still elitists, at least they know how to use the OS.
They do work on all distros! It's just a matter of how you get it working, and whether the Distro is of any help with it: NVIDIA Drivers are not open source but proprietary after all, and so outside the GNU licensing of Linux. They offer the FOSS alternative "Nouveau" drivers as well as the proprietary NVIDiA drivers which require they ask for permission to install. NVIDIA is finally becoming more Linux friendly though. Manjaro is kind of bloated out of the box, so if you are familiar with Linux apps and have your favorites, you may spend some time uninstalling the bloat and replacing things with what you want. Manjaro also has many customizations of the KDE Plasma DE it uses, and gives users lots of settings to make certain tasks easier you won't get with pure Arch (what Manjaro is based on), but then they don't keep up on changes, and it introduces bugs: The "Manjaro team" bite off way more than they can chew, and it causes problems, and well, it's based on Arch, which although the most bleeding edge high tech Linux base distro, also the most Geek centric, and difficult to use for noobs, and why it's not recommended for noobs in the first place. Manjaro tries to make Arch Linux noob friendly but just adds problems of it's own. Now EndeavourOS on the other hand will give you a more pure Arch installation, only gives you few apps, but a great installer, with NVIDIA install mode, online and offline installers and a choice of like 8 DE's, but not all customized besides a few wallpapers, but rather out of the box; customizing is up to you. It has always found and installed drivers for my more obscure and older hardware than any other distro, and also comes with a small maintenance app with a few great and important tools, which are more or less, just basic scripts less prone to failure. It's up to you to tweak things to your liking and install apps to your hearts content, but it helps if you have more understanding of Linux, and especially Arch, and the rolling release concept. Despite that, noobs still do well with it, because their community forum is so friendly and helpful, and there's hundreds of Manjaro refugees using EndeavourOS now because of it.
avoiding Manjaro as a beginner is a good idea because it is Arch based and the pain that will bring is something beginners shouldn't experience. So in a way that is good that you avoided Manjaro at first even though the reason for doing so was not accurate.
I have to wonder if his newly installed pop_os had a fresh apt update/upgrade on first boot, and before he tried to install steam. The package metadata on a live installation iso is probably well out-of-date relative to the repos, and the dependencies of steam are numerous (32 and 64-bit). The package manager did its best to resolve the dependencies by offering to remove xorg and the DE, which Linus accepted. Not really his fault. The stupid package managers should put more barriers to doing stuff like this (but NOT make it impossible for experts).
29:40 the problem is not not having proper notification. The problem is definitely something fundamentally wrong with Linux that installing steam can uninstall your OS in any way. These two things can even be linked together is the problem.
This is a vast misunderstanding of what happened. It was a bug, a very bad bug for sure but a temporary issue. This was fixed within a couple of hours of happening. You should not assume this is normal or anything to do with Linux in general. It was just an unfortunate bug that happened. Windows has plenty of similar bugs all the time including upgrades that delete people's data.
Something people have to learn about software. There have been, and there always will be bugs. There will always be a failure scenario where this kind of thing happens. The only thing you can do is educate the users of the dangers and to harden automated system. Blaming this package for this failure is like blaming human error for Chernobyl. While technically true, it overlooks the failure in procedures that lead to that point
Mostly use older hardware and Chromebooks, and Linux Mint trounces all others for compatibility, ease of use, and ease of getting retirees to use it instead of Windows. I've helped many in a local retirement community avoid buying new computers by installing Mint and teaching senior citizens the joys of life without Anti-Virus subscriptions. Mint just works and breathes new life into old machines with NO FUSS.
full name is because Linux's ideological roots in UNIX.. a multiuser system. You use a FULL name for display in case there are two Alan's in the environment.. not a biggie, but it's a thing.
i know it is not your fault, but i WANTED to go to AMD but...COVID meant me waiting for a video card for over 15 months and getting the best deal i could actually find [still overpriced] because a 960 just wasn't cutting it any more....this is not a complaint, and i know it is NVidia's fault, but i've seen a LOT of Linux videos talking about "just get an AMD card". the other thing, i literally just installed Manjaro [i was heavily considering Pop!_OS, Zorin OS, Linux Mint, Elementary OS, Ubuntu/Ubuntu MATE, and Kubuntu, since i am a total newb at Linux] last Sunday [yep, 2 days ago] and am still a bit confused.....i'm very glad i looked into it for a few weeks beforehand, but i was not quite ready for the learning curve, given that my job is roughly 60-85 hours/week.... either way, love how you are one of the non-judgmental Linux guys, love the content!
Luckily I switched to AMD about 5 months before the mess. I totally get why the suggestion is not that helpful these days. I do try to be helpful without judgement so I very much appreciate that comment. With that said, I would not recommend Manjaro to any new user because its based on arch and IMO nothing based on Arch can be beginner friendly. If you have issues that feel like the system is broken, don't give up on Linux is all im saying 😃
@@michael_tunnell I would disagree with that; the only distro that intsalled my Epson printer automatically from the printer manager "add printer" process was Arch, and I've tried lots, though I agree that Manjaro itself is not the best choice, I had less issues with SalientOS xfce...
@@fiddledotgoth Arch uses the same printer software as all of Linux: "Cups". Arch doesn't have a separate printer manager AFAIK, at least not one with a GUI, as Arch doesn't come with a GUI! So, most likely yours came with whatever Arch based distro you were using, most likely as part of it's DE's (Desktop AKA GUI) suite of apps, or the DE you installed on pure Arch.
@@michael_tunnell i actually chose it, in part, because a friend of mine uses Linux as his daily driver and mentioned several things he thought would be downsides for PopOS [and a few others]. and since the systems i would set up for my parents will focus mostly on "average daily user" i feel the utilities they would need should be stable and reliable with few updates. i did express concern to him that Manjaro did seem a bit more of an intermediate-to- advanced user Linux...but he assured me, for what my parents need, it would be fine, as well as give me the chance to do a deeper dive as needed. now that Steam is releasing it's Steam Deck i hope enough games become Linux capable that i can convert my dad's laptop to Linux and run his Steam account on it, sadly i have no idea how many non-Steam games he plays, but it is several. [yes, i know my dad, in his 80's, is not a typical gamer, but he plays a TON of military RTS]. and thanks very much for your "Arch can be dangerous to noobs!" warning. seriously, had my friend not been so proficient with the terminal offering to help, i would not have even approached Manjaro until probably next year. assuming i actually get enough time off work to play around with it for more than 30 minutes a night...which is actually higher than my average right now...
@@Bob-of-Zoid The printer manager looks the same as all the others but maybe because of the Arch hardware stack (that seems to be how people refer to it), all the functions of my Epson Ecotank printer work fine on the all the Arch spins I've tried; Manjaro, SalientOS, Bluestar, Arcos and Archman, so I assume it's a property of vanilla Arch...
24:30 to 24:55 now to be reasonable here...yes the LANGUAGE...the WORDING should instead say something like " warning you are about to remove your graphical user environment...Are YOU SURE you want to do this?..to cancel this... Type n and press enter.
That warning should be in full RED FONT that even a blond can see 😂 also they should make you type it 2 times one in RED and one in yellow so you know this is not normal.
I agree it should have been much clearer, it has been fixed though now by not allowing users to even do it at all without doing a task to prove skill level necessary to fix it
He should have tried Ubuntu, it's the most stable, compatible distro I've used, dual monitors, 250 fps gaming, multi tasking. Never stops, never sleeps it just works. I love how people using unstable fad OS's will mock Ubuntu when it's a true Windows replacement but I guess these guys don't have a distro installed for more than 2 days anyway so what do they know about stability.
To any NEW Linux users, if at any time you see "Yes, do as I say.", do not, as in extended utterance, "DOOOOOOO... NOOOOOT... EVER DO THIS!". You are not experienced enough to recover without a re-install.
This is at a 6 months delay or more because they go at the speed of Ubuntu which is not fast enough for this scenario. Waiting 6 months for your hardware to be supported is not going to be something a beginner will understand. They will just assume Linux sucks and cant even boot. This is why it has to be said rather than just promoting Ubuntu or most things based on it without context IMO.
30:45 to 30:54 Chris Titus tech mention somewhere in this range of option Linux plowed through that Enabling aka checking... "Force pipeline" is what one should do if one had an Nvidia GPU in Linux. This allegedly helps prevent scream tearing. ..
I havent used NVIDIA in many years so I can't say for sure if that is true or not. I simply don't remember the best ways to do it is so I can't agree or disagree with confidence on this particular topic.
Even if Linus had read and understood perfectly that installing Steam would Nuke his GUI, He still is without steam, so, what is the correct answer here? what should he have done?
That is something I tried to address in the reaction. He would just have a different problem. He would just be stuck and either way it would force him off Pop!_OS but one way would suck and be annoying and the other is a seemingly catastrophic break that seems unrecoverable. There was no solution he could have done other than wait for it to be fixed. Although he could have sent a tweet to system76 and got it fixed. He might think that is not something a normal user can do but s76 is very responsive to anyone. Ultimately, this likely would make him distrohop but the reason being steam won't install vs catastrophic system break. There is a lesser evil at least 😃
@@michael_tunnell From what I understood at the time of recording, System76 had patched the bug, but the ISO that Linus downloaded hadn't been updated yet to reflect that. If that's the case, would have a sudo apt update before trying to install steam via terminal have avoided the bug? Also, great video. As someone who's dabbled in Linux since the mid 00s (when Ubuntu sent out CD/DVDs), but never fully committed to it, I'm currently doing my own type of challenge (currently dual-booting Mint and Windows 11 on my ThinkPad P50) and looking for Linux content, and you've just gained a subscriber.
People just become acclimated to their misery. Windows is not perfect. It can and does have driver issues that the user has to fix, it can and does have catastrophic failures. The difference is that it is shipped on most pcs so if you buy a pc, why change what’s on there to operate. Eventually you learn your way around and any errors and failures you just get used to fixing. Moving from Windows to Linux, while in modern times isn’t really that much of a change, is like moving yo a new neighborhood. You have to find your way around again and at first the errors are annoying and time consuming to fix, but eventually you just get used to it and remember how to fix it. Heck, to this day I still can’t get my onboard speakers to work. Bluetooth speakers work, headphones work, mic works, but for some reason it refuses to play sounds from my speakers even though they are connected, recognized, and the laptop “thinks” it can adjust the volume. I’m sure it’s a driver issue but I’ve yet to be able to resolve it. But, I’ve had problems with hardware in Windows too that just made me go out and buy new hardware. Linux in many distros is easy to install and use, often easier than Windows itself, but there is no reason to switch. Even if Linux became the perfect OS, “normies” are still just going to use what the machine came with. “You will own nothing and be happy”
In 1991, IBM didn’t have to choose between Windows and Linux because by that time the choice was already made: OS/2. This kind of answers what could be expected from such an adoption. Nothing.
I recently got a new laptop and tried both Fedora and Ubuntu on it. Neither of them detected the WiFi despite it being an Intel AX201 which is meant to have great Linux support. Tuned out the ID was different than the other AX201 in iwlwifi. I had to compile a new kernel with a modified iwlwifi drivers to get WIFi to work. I still haven't been able to get the finger print sensor working. Linux driver support still sucks balls. I realize 70% of the blame is on the OEMs for the lack of driver support and unfortunately, until this gets better most people aren't going to switch over.
@@michael_tunnell i'm not saying the terminal isn't a workaround (in this case) i'm saying that LTT comment is referring to pop making it impossible by default to let this time of user error even happen :P
The thing about Arch is that it is a distro that beginners shouldnt use at all because it is not made for them so the amount of people who promote it usually dont say that. Arch is great but it is only made for a particular type of user and most people arent that kind of user.
A lot of people I heard who writes those sometimes write them to troll I just use arch and built what ever you want onto it bc a lot of gaming made distros come so bloated
Well, this guy will have trouble going out to buy a car. There is no official list that tells you what model/make of car you should buy and if you compare specs you will get even more confused. Come to think of it, most things in the world works this way when you have more then one supplier. He's been locked in to a synthetic world of one Microsoft to rule them all for far to long.
14:56 yeah ssd's are fairly cheap nowdays so just buy one of those. you can buy good enough ssd for this for about 30€. thats not too bad. windows is way more expensive than that.
26:46 yeah its kinda cool that you can do it. but this is pop os. it is advertised as a noob distro. should you be able to do this on noob distro? i dont think so or atleast not this easily.
I feel that he thinks he knows way more than he actually does and refuses to approach his computing experience from a different way. He wants a windows replacement, but that's not what it is. Just like how macos is not a windows replacement, it's made for people with a completely different set of priorities
Windows users need to realize that if they didn't get Windows preinstalled Which they almost always do, and had to do it from scratch they too would have some issues with the install, and settings to configure after installation, as with a preinstalled OS the MFG does that for you, even when it's Linux.
20:44 for newer cards? Because i have a 280x aka 7970 and its horrible. If i have the system up for a few days (used to run win7 for literally months without problems) browsers and other gui will start to bug out and flicker, or the desktop entirely freezing. Fnding a proper driver is a nightmare or impossible if you're on a newer kernel than amd, whereas in windows, I just download the latest package and everything is well
Both of those cards are before the Lisa Su Era, the AMD works best on Linux with zero effort only started after she took over AMD. For example a 580 works perfectly without any extra effort. Unfortunately you are using a 9-11 year old hardware and AMD was terrible for Linux back then.
I honestly think a lot of you guys are missing the point of this series.They are supposed to be going into it as an average gamer. Not a tech enthusiat or even a gamer that is a hardware/software enthusiast. Most average gamers will have NO IDEA what they're doing as far as linux goes and they WILL use google whether that's what you'd recommend or not because that's what they know. I don't think this was Linus's fault at all cause he made it very clear at the start of the video, he's never daily driven linux personally so he would have eabsolutely no clue as to what all those warnings even meant cause he has no frame of reference for them. He's trying to show some of the hurdlies an average computer user runs into when trying to get into linux and he's absolutely right. They're frustrating and in a lot of cases the linux community is pretty toxic towards new users when they try and ask for help. If we want linux to be more widely addopted, this kind of thing, (the toxicity mostly,) needs to stop. What I am curious about though is why neither of them went with SteamOS since this whole thing was prompted by the Steam Deck and that's what will be running on it.
SteamOS 1.0 and 2.0 were Debian based and are horribly outdated (the last release for 2.0 was back in 2019). SteamOS 3.0 is Arch based and I don't believe Valve has released a public beta yet.
linus just swapped out his drive.....says a lot of what he expects....he's proven correct. looks really bad on us when even he cant get through easily then he craps the bed knowing full well he should read the warning the real question is what ar the general public saying.........and its not good we have not corrected 20yr old problems we have not changed or evolved with user expectations we still love terminal so much the UI hasnt kept up with any semblance of logic
Linus swapping his drive makes perfect sense as he is just doing a one month test. The problem with Steam was totally unfortunate, that bug existed less than a day. Those who want to see Linux as a bad option might get evidence for them, but in general I don't think that was such a horrible thing. Especially if they explain that it was a bug that lasted only 24h on a later episode. What are those 20yo problems? It's almost impossible to change user expectations when all the corporate entities are against desktop Linux and there's no corporations pushing Linux. But things are constantly getting better, slowly, but that was the only possibility after Linux kind of lost the desktop war in the late 90s and early 2000s. I think Valve might be the one who manage to achieve certain improvements necessary for Linux to thrive. When the usage gets above certain level, then software support gets better and that starts positive vicious circle. Getting lots of gamers would be great because gamers are the "IT support backbone" for friends and family members, and they could get lots of people into Linux, their parents and other boomers who would enjoy Linux. They only need Browser, Office, media player and stability. Linux is perfect for them, if they just have someone who helps in the beginning. Terminal is the best way to handle most things, that's objective truth. But that's not how the masses perceive things obviously. Desktop environments have been a disappointing thing. Gnome 2 used to be amazing, KDE 3 used to be amazing. Both lost their way. It's sad thing because great DEs would help a ton, but I still don't think people who would migrate to Linux would skip it because of DEs or that great DEs could sway a lot of people into Linux that otherwise wouldn't be interested. But DEs could get more eyes on Linux, and when Linus shows Linux in his videos, it would get people interested in finding out about Linux. It's not the determining factor but it might be the factor that gets them interested in finding out about Linux. UI is really hard in general on open source. You kind of need hierarchy with some having control over the UI design. It's hard for open source for multiple reasons. But while it's still messy, it's also showing signs of improvement. Ultimately the future of Linux and FOSS depends on us. If we do our best to help software get better, help people migrating, help to write manuals/translate them, be active on forums, and especially if enough developers join these projects. And especially not SJW leftist activists who try to make Linux and FOSS about politics which is shouldn't be. The only politics of FOSS should be freedom, and everyone who doesn't feel like this should be kicked off from the projects as they cause immense harm. But those who appreciate freedom should help the best way they can.
I backed up my windows machine when switching to Linux on my gaming machine. More so i could pick throug and carry over bits and pieces. It is realy good to have if you suddenly realize you need something and you already had it. Just plugg it in a usb interface and grab what is needed.
@@juzujuzu4555 terminal is not the best way to handle anything....its the best we have and its extremely poor. we didnt buy the gb's of ram, graphics cards and all the other development to be sent back to 1989 dos text interface. you may like it, you may be used to it...but it is not "best"... its actually the worst when youre trying to sell and OS as current up to date, modern, competitive and capable of competing with the 3 major OS's where regular users NEVER see it. we look ridiculous as were trapped using what amounts to a hand crank on the front of a current BMW to start the car.... you want a 20 year problem? terminal.... usb.... bluetooth audio interfaces hardware manager android integration wireless casting, syncing & data transfer TO AND FROM phones all of which are an absolute farce and embarrassment by comparison to ALL other os's tell me how to fix any of these things without terminal and have it function without terminal and use it without terminal and tell me why its not baked into every distro with full ui control to a level that is functionally better than the other os's...not just transfer speed or any of the other diversions the community perpetually tries to obfuscate with. the only people i know who've had no issues with linux are long term hardcore users and 90yr old grandmothers who browse the web and ask for help with email. EVERYONE ELSE has been driven to RAGE and back to windows
@@kazzTrismus Terminal is the best way to handle things, and that's exactly why terminal hasn't evolved. On open source OS there would be constant evolution towards what's the best way to handle things. If you bought GBs of ram, graphics cards etc. to handle things in windows registry etc. shitty interfaces, then you have phucked up. We have these to run software and games. It's horrible for selling OS to people who want Android like experience. Essentially they do not want Linux, freedom to do anything and everything, they want TV like interface for their computers and let them have Windows and Android then. You cannot achieve freedom without having terminal. Linux has lots of hardware and software issues that we now need to fix and setup through terminal, those should go away. That would make Linux much better. My mother uses Linux, she doesn't use terminal. She is happier with Linux than she ever where with Windows, and I haven't had to help her on anything since the initial couple of week. If we look ridiculous for the normies who understand nothing, so be it. Terminal is not a problem, USB drivers are issue but that's because there's endless amounts of USB devices and the effing manufacturers do not provide drivers, though I personally have never had problems with any USB device. Bluetooth is quite bad, though bluetooth in itself is horrible and should be avoided at all cost. Still it works but it should be better. Audio interfaces work pretty well, pulseaudio isn't the best, but with small configuration you can have amazing sound. Pipewire is becoming more public and it's much better. Though sound hardware manufacturers should help with the drivers. Hardware manager GUI would help, perhaps there already are those, I don't know. Also I only know there's some Android integration but I have no idea about these. I don't know really what you are asking, every hardware on every laptop and desktop I have works perfectly out of the box. So if I build you a complex GUI that eradicates the need for keyboard but is complex as hell, would that be OK for fixing the potential issues? If you would need to play constantly on terminal to get things working, sure that would be too much, but getting the initial setup working with some terminal really isn't a bad thing when you realize that it's free as in freedom and free as in free beer. People really seem to miss the difference between operating systems that are backed by trillion dollar companies and fully open source operating systems with open source ecosystems. There's some amazing things that are better with Linux and open source ecosystem, and some things that are worse. For those that do not appreciate the things that are better but appreciate things that are better with Windows, there's just no sense to even try to get them to migrate.
"obs works just great on linux as im doing right now" *smirk* - guy who has multiple pauses in screen recording through the video while webcam is just fine, and is reacting to things that are frozen for the viewer but not him signaling that obs is in fact not working just great.
What? I paused the video to react to it . .. that's how reaction videos work because otherwise I would be talking at the same time as them. . . your comment is confusing.
I agree that the language on the terminal could be stronger. We have a tendency to rely on corny computer jokes from the 80s. I do think that Linus make the key mistake of jumping into the terminal without enough experience. I love the terminal but it took me like 3 years to really take advantage of it. Sometimes I think we get too casual with such a powerful tool and borking the desktop can be the result
Not a fair critique about Ubuntu. Most mainstream distros(Fedora, Mint, Suse etc) are not built with gaming in mind so to say Ubuntu is easy to setup and then the article criticizes it for not easy to setup for gaming isn't a valid criticism, imo...of course this is a critique of the article writer. Not Linus. Customization is why I like KDE so much. Besides why would any one NOT want to customize their OS? I mean you customize your bedroom, living room, car and office space right? Why not also your computer desktop? First thing I do when I do a windows install is change the standard font, font size, title border colors, and even the window border thickness. I even install software into custom menu sections...video and music playing apps and tools go in media, games go in games and Microsoft software go into a Microsoft menu on the start menu to keep the programs menu organized. BTW Gen 4 means PCI-E 4.0 SSD. He put in a PCI-E 3.0 SSD. As for the sudo command he ran the coders need to redesign that message to flash in large letters in a different font and/or color if the sudo command detects a potentially OS breaking command.
Michael Tunnell - TuxDigital: Hello Michael! Wow! You look terrific! You haven't aged a day. I think when that article is talking about customization it really means the ability to make it look like you want it to look, and to put things where you want them to be, NOT settings. Yes I agree! Both of those websites look almost identical. I heard (not too long ago) that Linux Mint was not going to include the third-party software like restricted-extras and others by default at install. I do believe they still have the check box in the installer though. Now that wasn't supposed to happen with Steam. 22:18 It was supposed to install Steam NOT take out the whole desktop environment and xorg. Of course he should of payed attention to what was on screen, and NOT selected Yes. This could of happened to anyone, but still they should read what is on the screen or asked someone well versed in Linux if it was ok to select Yes. This exact same thing happened to me many years ago when I was trying to install play on Linux. It wanted to take out the entire desktop environment too! The difference being that I noticed what it was going to do, and didn't continue the process. When I want Discord, I just go directly to their site and get the .deb package. I think Linus is amazing! He is very smart when it comes to Windows, and when it comes to building computers, and doing benchmarks, the internet, and big screen TVs, and gadgets, but he is a newbie when it comes to Linux. Hopefully that'll change. I love watching his latest escapades! It is nice to see you! I didn't know you were still making videos. I miss your Wolfman Jack imitations. Siva and I are still on the same Mumble channel.
I am not a Linux user, never have used it... run win from win 95, and i feel stupid with Linux, have a degree in el. eng. but the thought of linux scares the shit out of me 🤣 31 yrs. old scare cat
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I agree that the pop os bug wasn't Linus' fault. I do like that they're doing this series though, because it does highlight some challenges that are obscured by experience for those in the Linux community that have been using this stuff for years.
And unfortunately there is that 2% vocal minority who wil evanglize how great and easy linux is the propmtly turn around and yell at newbies for not knowing "the basics" telling them to go back to windows...
@@graphicsaw2657 The one most important basic with any computing device when it prompts you, when reading instructions... is READ AND UNDERSTAND before proceeding! There is no valid excuse not to! Ignorance is not an excuse, nor a virtue!
@@Bob-of-Zoid and how often do you read the entirety of an EULA?
The warning text was hidden amongst a wall of text... This is just poor design
@@Bob-of-Zoid That's not really how people use their devices though, whether it's a computer, a phone, heck, even a toaster. There are some common expectations regarding how for example software should behave, and having xorg and your entire desktop uninstalled when installing Steam isn't one of them. I think we can excuse him skipping an unintelligible wall of text in that case.
The RTFM-crowd is also missing the point that a lot of the documentation isn't really geared towards newer users.
@@Bob-of-Zoid go on then tell me the TH-cam TOS right now u must of READ AND UNDERSTAND before proceeding didnt you
Perfect example of real life. We all laughed but I felt his pain.
to be fair to Linus, you did the same thing with no issues because they fixed the issue after he did it and before you did it. I need to ask some S76 how they found the bug because that would give a better picture to the timeline.
Jan I think it is the opposite. You were not lucky but instead he was just unlucky because its more common to work vs not work.
i also feel that, as a fellow newb, if warnings did one [or more] of the following it would be helpful [it's a LOT of word vomit for us n00bs]: flashing text, color changed text, highlighted text. any of those would drastically help new users [or all users, even though the more experienced ones can read all of it and understand the commands]. i am NOT saying Linus didn't screw up, but i've made some errors based on word vomit blinding me to the error before...
System warnings are colored.
What happened with linus is their was a bug with apt. That shouldn't have happened and is extremely rare giving how Debian is.
That's not a bug with apt, that's what it was meant to do but what it was meant to do needed to be fixed
Terminal colors are not a certainty, apt is used over SSH and all sorts of other situations where you can only rely on plain text.
In this case I feel this was Linus' fault for acting like a child and not reading the one line that he was confirming, not the entire package list but the one line that said "This can potentially harm your system, are you sure?" (or very similar, going from memory) A statement like that is not cryptic and it was not buried in a wall of text, it was literally the last line above the cursor where he typed "Yes, do as I say"
@@richterman3962the thing is extremely rare bugs happen with every new Linux install. It's a different bug each time, they're all extremely rare, but overall it's common to encounter a bug or two your first time using Linux.
This is even worse than a common bug, because there will be no results in Google for it.
@@mytech6779"can potentially harm your system" has been boilerplate to be ignored since windows 98.
For a second I thought the video was Linus reacting to Tux Digital lol.
Great reaction to the LTT linux challenge!
The team at Pop! OS messed up there. Dependencies are one of the greatest strengths and weaknesses of linux. Androids fix for the weakness was to have each App walled off so that dependencies would also have to be kept with the App. Yes it means more versions of the same libraries are included and take up more space, but space is cheap these days so its an acceptable solution.
A big part of the problem Linus had with Pop! OS was he still has the expectation of "Oh I'm in linux of course I need to use command line/terminal". It is a perception thing. If he had needed to use a command line "fix" in windows he would have been more hesitant and careful. This is where the GNU/linux community needs a stable distro that is absolutely zero terminal requirement and generally more locked down so that general users can genuinely try to break it and not succeed.
A distro with a goal of: by the time a person can break the system, they will need to know it well enough that they no longer need it to be locked down. It should probably also be GUI and mouse centric with the idea of minimal number of clicks/button presses to do everything they may need to - and I include every press of a keyboard button here, making terminal less efficient.
Of course the problem with doing this is that it just adds to the confusion of how many distros there are to pick from.
Android took the right approach. GNU/Linux got it fundamentally wrong. It's basic software engineering for managing dependencies.
@@dansanger5340 Yeah, tell someone in 1995 they need an extra copy of each DLL for every program that uses it, on their 20 MB HDD.
Hell, tell someone on Windows today that they need to install the .NET framework again for every program they have that uses it. Not even MacOS does things that way.
A training wheels linux aimed at children and entry level normies would be neat, might even exist out there somewhere under the pile of over 9000 distros.
As for the distro confusion that is caused by the community's branding. There is simply too much emphasis on Linux such that entry level normies (and reviewers) can't even tell the difference between Linux for consoles and Linux for PC without doing research.
Imagine if all the Chromium based browsers were branded like Linux distros. You'd have Edge Chromium, Chrome Chromium, Vivaldi Chromium, Brave Chromium, Opera Chromium, Chromium Chromium, etc... To give a non-tech example: scrambled eggs, poached eggs, baked into a cake eggs, whipped into mayonnaise eggs, etc... This is how Linux and it's distros look from the outside
@@dansanger5340 Oh yeah, the "basic software engineering" convention that neither Windows nor Linux nor macOS follow. I'm sure you know better than the desktop OS engineering teams at Microsoft and Apple as well as the developers behind the OS that has a 97% server market share.
There was a systemd update that we did, and Launchpad didn't build an i386 package for libudev because that version of systemd wasn't on the Launchpad i386 allowlist. I'm not sure how apt reasoned about the proper solution to the missing i386 dependency being removing the entire OS, but the systemd package was fixed shortly after (within hours), and apt has been patched not to allow removing essential packages. It would have been important for anyone using that ISO to update the package lists before installing Steam. In future releases, Pop will be using its own apt repository rather than Launchpad, so we'll have more control over the guarantee that packages are distributing from the same CI setup that QA performs tests with.
Thank you so much for commenting and sharing that information. I do have a question, it sounds like that would make PopOS a soft fork by not using Launchpad directly, is that an accurate assessment?
@@michael_tunnell We've long had our own in-house packaging CI generating an in-house apt repository for QA to perform tests on each development branch, with a staging repository for testing all of our changes before releasing them.
This system automatically sends source tarballs to the Pop Proposed PPA on Launchpad whenever new commits land on the master branch of a GitHub repository. Anything that reaches the master branch has already been validated by QA from a staging branch based on the name of the PR to a GitHub repository.
But while everything in master is considered production-ready, we do have a manual process to choose when we release all the staged changes to the release repositories.
While Steam may have worked perfectly with no dependency conflicts in our in-house apt-repository with no missing i386 libraries, we got caught with our pants down not realizing that systemd had been released to our release PPA without any i386 libraries built by Launchpad's service. And Steam also isn't the first thing you think about testing when updating systemd.
So the change with Impish is merely going to have everyone's package lists point to our in-house apt repository rather than the Launchpad PPA. It's a better solution long term to have our own service. We have better control over what can be built, and there's no point sending source tarballs to a remote build server when we've already built the packages on our own Threadripper build server at the company.
QA has also added Steam to the checklist for systemd updates. And they've been working on an automated QA system that'll regularly run automated tests on our repositories to catch issues more quickly, or before they get to release.
@@mmstick Unfortunately some damage is done with the video. I guess if some people want to switch to Linux and see that issue with Pop!_OS, even after it was fixed, then they tend to avoid it still and even the disclaimer in the comments and snippet added in the end after sponsor and ending credits will not be so noticeable.
The apt patch doesn't work, clearly. Couple of weeks back I landed in the exact situation as Linus and nuked my desktop environment. How? Well there were multiple python installs for some reason in ubuntu - 2.7, 3.7,3.8, 3.9 of which i only installed 3.9. So i thought why not just keep one version and remove the rest.
Man i couldn't have been more stupid. I used apt to remove all python installs except 3.9 and ended up nuking my DE. Only difference is I actually was able to reinstall the DE through some very basic CLI stuff and browsing on stackoverflow (which I could've never even considered if it had happened when i first started out) obviously the file system was perfectly functioning.
But it just shows that while Linux drags macOS and Windows through the mud at a number of tasks, it's fundamentally flawed at a number of places with regards to the user experience.
P. S. I don't think I'm a beginner considering the fact that I've been daily driving ubuntu for almost a year now. I'm definitely learning new stuff everyday.
@metallica fan, I understand your point of view and I agree with some of it. I just wanted to point out that beginners don't know anything about Python and likely wouldn't care how many versions are installed so they likely would not run into the issue you did since they likely wouldn't attempt such a change.
It also depends on the distro you are using, just because it's fixed in Debian Testing or Pop!_OS doesn't mean it's fixed in Ubuntu for example. It's also likely not fixed in Debian Stable either. Upgrade delays are kind of common with Ubuntu / Debian family.
Installing an OS only for the pre-installed games . TempleOS rings a bell.
As a new full time Linux user, I recommand for persons who want to switch to Linux to try Linux distributions (Ubuntu flavors, Linux Mint or Manjaro to begin) with a second computer (not the main machine) and make search on internet wiki or best with Linux videos like in TH-cam. I did for myself in my TH-cam channel a linux playlist Tips and so you can do.
I thank all the TH-camrs that make interesting videos like you and DT, Switched to Linux, Average Linux users, and many others
I have recently switched to linux myself (this past weekend) and didnt have any of the issues on Pop os that he is. I actually am having alot of fun on it. There are a few issues i am having with it such as 2nd hdd or my mining software not wanting to run.
So thats my recomendation. Feels like a cross between MacOs and Android.
I tried switching to Linux Mint yesterday, after 6 hours I gave up. I had horrible experience. And I'm not a stranger to CLI, programming and stuff. First hour I tried to make my second monitor work, as It wouldn't, turns out that installing nvidia drivers from the gui manager completely bricked, and that;s why I couldn't make linux find my second monitor. (using laptop). After that I wanted to fix the issue with my brightness being up to 100% all the time on my OLED laptop screen - turns out linux doesn't directly support changing the brightness of OLED... So I tried actually writing some scripts to have change brightness (xrandr) connected to one of the special FN keys on the keyboard. Doesn't work - apparently ALL FN keys are ACPI keys except for these 2... Fuck. After that I just created a shortcut for setting stiff xrandr brightness to .5 and .9 on f4 and f5. Instead of FN key while trying to do that I accidentaly pressed ctrl+alt which threw me out of GUI into command line and when trying to come back to GUI I received an error and then I just gave up and turned off the laptop.
Another issue I would have to face would be the fan curve that cannot be changed apparently for my CPU in AERO 15. Horrible experience, 2/10.
Jakub, I am curious if you tried PopOS, I think the issues you had are Mint related not Linux related so I'm curious.
@@michael_tunnell So I actually decided to give it a try today after your comment. And much to my surprise everything works. Brightness settings, peripherals, refresh rate, resolution etc.
Until I installed lutris, wine and did a first reboot. This time ironically it was the main laptop display that gave up, after 15 minutes of troubleshooting it turned out to be a broken config file in the X11 folder. But why? I literally didn't touch it at all. I fixed it though :)
Anyway now everything works, Lutris games are stuttery for some reason but I'm gonna figure it out later (I have a high end laptop so it shouldnt be the hardware). So yeah, I'm not removing my second boot windows for now, but we are on a good path :)
One question though, if Mint so broken that almost nothing worked out of the box for me, why is it recommended so much?
29:45 also the warning text could be a diffrent color. that would make it way more clear that its a warning. normally warning is like red or yellow.
Agreed. Also the warning message needs to be far more explicit. Essential package? So they might be forgiven for thinking that merely some functionality might break. Now if you flag specific packages like -desktop, -session, -shell, -mesa , -xorg/-wayland, et_al. with a warning message upon attempted removal like: "The following are system critical packages that this Linux distro depends on! Only remove if you have alternatives you wish to install in mind, know very well what you're doing and have installed, setup and are using a Snapshot (read Restore Point if you've previously used Windows) program such as TimeShift or SystemBack in case of disaster. If you wish to continue type the following: "I understand the risks and wish to proceed with this dangerous operation."
He used apt-get. If he would type apt, as a more friendly version of apt get, it would print in different colors
Obviously not Linus's fault though
App installs shouldn't be mucking around with shared libraries, period, especially uninstalling them. This is not a question of better messaging. It's horrendously bad design.
Yeah .. *.exe programs should fully deinstall, too. So... what's your point?
@@triash Their point is that app installs shouldn't be mucking around with shared libraries, especially uninstalling them.
My God that wall of text. There's no reason apt needs to spit out that wall of text without some kind of "verbose" flag. The only information most newbies really need is a progress bar that tells them something is happening. When you're about to do something potentially destructive, then you print:
"You are about to do something potentially destructive. Do not do this unless you know exactly what you're doing."
I wouldn't blame Linus, I probably would have done the same exact thing.
It literally said that on the last line before the confirmation! Not buried in the list of packages to be removed. And no it isn't a "wall of text" it is a list of packages and you cannot knowingly confirm, 'Yes remove these packages' if you don't have the list of packages.
@@mytech6779 Please don't ever become a UX designer or, better yet, please take a UX class and see if it changes your perspective. It displays that on the second-to-last line (the last line, where the message actually should be, doesn't convey that anything bad is going to happen), but it was in no way separated from the wall of text above it. It had a single line break (not even a paragraph break), it wasn't color-coded in any way, it didn't use caps lock for any words, it followed a wall of easily 100 lines of output, and importantly, even if you do read it, the message absolutely underplays the severity of what you're about to do. "You are about to do something potentially harmful." More appropriate would be something like "This operation is likely to cause serious, irreparable problems unless you know exactly what you're doing. To continue, type 'I know what I'm doing, and I understand the consequences'". Then add some appropriate spacing, color-coding, and capitalization to make sure the message stands out as important. The one shown in the video fails every single aspect of being a warning sign: it doesn't grab your attention, it's vague, and it downplays the severity of what it's warning you about. As someone noted below, it's easy for the average user to just assume this is just typical installation jargon, just phrased differently because you're on a different OS than the one you're used to. Given you're trying to install Steam, "Yes, do as I say" is easily interpreted as "Yes, install Steam".
From the average user's point of view, you're just installing Steam, so there's absolutely no reason to believe anything harmful (let alone this catastrophic) would follow from this command. Most people's eyes will just glaze over from the wall of text, and there's zero reason to expect a typical user would or even should read any of it. This is the 2020s, not 1990; installing such basic, common software packages should expect next to nothing from the user. Imagine for a second a user tried to install Steam on Windows and it spat out a wall of text consisting of dozens of lines of text reading "C:\whatever\whatever" which at the very end, separated by nothing but a line break (not even a paragraph break) said "This is potentially harmful. Continue anyway?" And just gave you a checkbox "Yes, continue" and a "Next" button. And then if you checked the box and clicked "Next", you bricked your OS. And now imagine that this was a widespread issue.
Of course you know what would happen. Hundreds of thousands of users would destroy their OS, it would make international headlines, and Windows would be the subject of relentless derision for years for how something as basic as trying to install Steam could break it. Even if it didn't succeed, you would probably see Microsoft hit with a class action. Casual users would be genuinely afraid just to use Windows, and that would precipitate from that one screw-up. Microsoft would spend years trying to regain the trust of its users. The bug itself in Pop! is understandable if extremely serious, and it's acceptable and even a good thing to give the user to break their system if they genuinely want to. What's not acceptable is to let them do that without clearly and very prominently let the user know what they're doing, and it's wildly unacceptable to do that for such a common use case of e.g. "installing Steam".
I am simply amazed by how many Linux TH-camrs are reviewing this Linus series of videos.
Why is it surprising? It's a TH-camr with 14 million + subscribers doing a big Linux Challenge. I would be more surprised if there weren't a lot of reaction videos. 😃
Yes I have been a Linux mint user for 10 yrs and I am watching every Move I also follow LTT Great show
@@michael_tunnell
I would definitely enjoy watching your reaction to their following videos.
you ahve had the best take on the event so far. props.
i'm going to see if you have other content on linux use, cause i don't feel like you'll be demeaning.
thank you very much for the kind words. I do have more videos on Linux including a video podcast talking about Linux News called This Week in Linux. I also do another show called Destination Linux which you can find that and other stuff at destinationlinux.network.
I also plan to make a lot more general Linux videos soon too. :D
I am a Linux user since Suse 6.3 which is now well over twenty years old. I have been using Linux as my daily driver at home for at least eight years (So i don' t run Windows anymore for that long) However; I tend to avoid the terminal. I see the terminal once every three months for five minutes tops and I think that is fine.
The reality is that the massive majority of people using computers do not want to do terminal, do not need to and can't. Those users want to do everything visual (similar to me). What got me really, REALLY annoyed was that when Linus borked Pop!_OS the response of _some_ (I am talking to you Jupiter Broadcasting) decided to double down on the terminal; pushing it as 'easy' and useful regardless of distro. It annoyed me because it was a clear disconnect of the type of users Linus is representing here. People need to get it into their heads that the typical computer user will not invest any amount of time in learning the terminal and that should be fine.
A Linux distro mend for easy entrance should and often can be used with minimal terminal usage. That said; I am pretty certain that the developers of Pop!_OS probably banged their heads pretty hard against the wall seeing their O.S. dismantle itself on a big tech channel. In Linus his defense;; installing steam on the O.S. should have been a snap and it wasn't.
Worse over;; a lot of gamers and the like interested in Linux because of Linus will see this first video and immediately respond with ' nope! not my O.S.' and ignore it as a result which makes me sad.
That said; I like being in the minority. Windows is big and as a result far heavily targeted by criminals. (Linux is certainly not immune, just less targeted because of its smaller desktop user base)
thank you very much for your understanding and perspective. i'm sort of shocked someone with as much Linux experience as you doesn't use the terminal more.
i understand though, i learned programming in the mid-80's and haven't used it much at all since 1990. while i'm more computer [and programming] literate than "most" users, i don't want to HAVE to learn a lot of terminal.
i used Unix at work for a while [a REALLY basic UI/GUI] years ago but, until last Sunday, i had not used Li/U-nix at all for several years.
i do wish that Linux were a bit more "noob friendly" and could/would/was a larger % of users [even if only 15%] instead of the very small amount it is.
i'm actually learning Linux so i can swap both sets of parents old computers to Linux...so i won't have to fix them EVERY time i visit.
versions
@@kipcamp8976 I already switched my parents over to Linux. Their basic usage profile consists of reading e-mail, browsing the web, watching YT videos, watching series via their online steaming subscription. And, in case of my father, creating music via his M-Audio hardware. My support calls went down 80 percent.
@@kipcamp8976 Swapped my 83 yr old mother to Solus Mate on a cheap ebay laptop almost a year ago with Skype, Spotify and Firefox which she was used to using on Win 7 before and had no issues for almost a year now; Linux is great for geeks who terminals and zipping around with key shortcuts but theres no excuse for not being noob friendly with mouse and GUIs since this is the way MOST people use computers and is always a good indication of how competent the people behind an OS are...
@@tfksworldoflinux once i'm comfortable enough with it, i plan on transitioning them. but with only 2 days usage i'm not there yet. but VERY glad it worked for you, it gives me hope that i'll have a similar experience.
@@fiddledotgoth i was considering Solus, Mint, Elementary, Pop, Zorin, ok, i was looking into roughly 15 distros, trying to decide which i could learn easily AND transition my parents to. i do love that in Manjaro it's not too hard to set it to auto-update.
That was great, learned a few things. The multiple display thing is persistent with a friend's setup with an old TV and a monitor. The login screen tends to be on the TV, even if the monitor is set as primary.
I had that same issue on Windows 10 for months.
I have this same issue on dual boot. Bottom screen displayport, top hdmi. Nothing will show unless I unplug the displayport monitor. Is it a consistent issue across anything debian based?
Linus is 100% right about everything. When I switched to linux a year ago, I had all the same problems. More, actually. And none of them should've existed. It should all be smooth and seamless. IF you want to attract new users, and if you want to tell people that Linux works fine, and that they can use it all the time. And not really notice much difference. Right now, that's wrong. It's always been wrong. You need a distro that is flawless in setup of all the common tasks. You can stop there, and let people learn on their own. But for all the most common stuff, it needs to be as easy (or easier) than windows. That's how you get people hooked and increase the user base. Oh and they don't wanna use the command line, so make it so that it's never ever necessary. But it's still there and they can if they want to.
Why aren't more linux people thinking like you ?
@@AlligatorAli Many of them are dumb fanboys. But some of them know this is a problem. There are probably a few distros where you won't run into those problems. I can say for sure that manjaro isn't one of them. But there might be something like PopOS or Zorin that doesn't have any of the usual linux problems when you first install it. Nearly all linux distros aren't smooth and flawless for a new person. They all seem to throw weird, unnecessary error messages at you, that you don't understand. It's a major flaw in linux.
Windows is not as easy as it seems, the only difference is that applications are available. The amount of complications and bugs with various system stuff is pretty equal. The problem is that Linux has to be better than Windows, not just as buggy. There needs to be incentive to leave Windows and for some people there is the incentive, like privacy and security, and others there isn't because Linux isn't obviously better, it is better in many areas but not overwhelmingly. I agree Linux needs to improve a lot, I also agree that avoiding the terminal should be a priority but that doesn't mean Linux is not ready for some.
Windows also throws weird unnecessary errors at users. But I agree, expectations are much higher for Linux because we have to deal with users expecting Linux to be Windows but better and that's a very difficult task. MacOS vs Windows is not a case of which is overwhelming better, both suck in their own way. Both of these OSs are equally crap but they are crap in different ways so they appeal to different audiences. The problem for Linux is that expectations are higher to be better than macOS has. I know that sounds kind of weird but it's true. MacOS is garbage for gaming so the gaming community ignores it. MacOS is great for creative tools so people prefer it for that. Windows has the same level of pros and cons. Yet people accept the issues, I mean audio in macOS is a joke yet people accept buying 3rd party plugins as if it's normal. I think people would also accept the quirks of Linux if the apps they wanted were available.
@@michael_tunnell Yeah they probably would. But windows' weird unnecessary errors seem less critical than the ones in linux. When windows throws an error, typically it's not something that's going to crash your system and force a reinstall of the OS. Like linus pointed out in his videos, that's not the case with linux. It asked him some question that it had no business asking, and when he answered wrong, he was screwed. That's how you keep your OS from seeing mass adoption. I realize that may be the fault of that particular distro, and others may do a better job. But to sum it up I'd describe it as a lack of "polish". Windows and Mac are polished nearly to a shine in that area. I'm thinking of leaving manjaro because of weird, minor errors and breakages. Seems like there's always a new one.
Probably the most sane take I've heard on this.
Let's just get this out of the way first, I like both windows and Linux, especially Linux Mint, but all the same, I don't daily drive any Linux distro, and here's mostly why...
I have used Linux for many years, on an off and on basis, on a few different distros, and although the desktop experience has gotten better, by a long shot, I never had internet on any of those devices, so doing something as simple as playing music was almost always a headache before codecs became mainstream, with the exception of Linux Mint, which is why I love it so much.
To be clear, each time I used Linux in general, not just mint, I had many problems, mostly related to the fact that what I might want to do requires internet to install and set up the required plugins and add-ons, and even something as simple as a distro that is purported to include the WINE compatibility layer, out of the box, which would probably solve 75% if not more, of my hesitancy to use Linux as a daily driver OS, didn't work for me... Why didn't the WINE compatibility layer work??? Because, it was purported BY THE HOMEPAGE OF THE DISTRO to work out of the box, when in reality it wanted more packages installed, which again implies that I have an internet connection... I'm not firing up my hotspot in bumfck nowhere, where I live, and waiting hours, just to do what I can do in windows fairly easily by just clicking install on whatever app I'm trying to use...
But, you might say, "what about dualbooting Windows and Linux"??? And in answer to that, I say that I have tried to do that many times, and 99 times out of 100, have had to reinstall windows AND Linux, if I wasn't frustrated with Linux yet, of course, and why would I have to nuke and pave after possibly a month or so??? Some kind of error 7 or error 9 or something, I forget what exactly, as it's been forever ago since I tried a dualboot... someone told me when I mentioned it though that basically my bootloader just out of the blue broke, is whet the error meant...
Also, for those of you who might say that I haven't been there through the really tough times of Linux and trying it out, let me just say this, my first Ubuntu version was either 4 or 5.x and my hard drive was formatted as NTFS... Do I even need to go any further than that??? If so, then here you go, back then, I forget which Linux version it was, there was a solution released, but the author even admitted that it was janky and had a high probability of damaging your files, besides the fact that I had to add that unknown repository to my list, just to apt-get or use a package manager to install it... So yeah, I've seen Linux come a long way since then, but still has a lot of problems come up, I'd rather not have to deal with...
fedora dnf history is magical and I love it, it has saved a lot of fiddling to unmuck something stupid I did, more than once.
Linus is a pretty sharp guy, but he does have bad luck. :)
I liked this video and the way it was made.
Thank you! Im glad you enjoyed it
"Gen 4" = PCIe 4.0 (NVMe M.2 SSD), as opposed to PCIe 3.0. Is DASGeek going to do a reaction video to this reaction video? 😜
This video was an excellent reaction to Linus' efforts. (including other people's attempts to install linux without much prior experience.). A great response, Michael.
Thank you very much 😃
The problem with those articles is that new users encounter those first 🤔
Agreed that is unfortunate
@@michael_tunnell indeed. makes one wonder what we can do about it. i mean one of them is even "itsfoss" which should have linux experienced editors (?)
maybe the article authors could be contacted to present the answer differently/ more accurately? i dunno feel like something should be done about those results 🤔
Do they? Or do they just type download linux on a search engine?
@@oplkfdhgk the sensible user do some research. and given they have zero prior knowledge of linux terminology; yes yes they do
lol at "Windows everybody... Windows..." comment, the amount of stupid shit I've seen Linux do as well...
I loved your video and the way you explain things. You make a Linux noob like myself feel at ease. I'll subscribe and watch some of your videos. Maybe I'll pick some things up. I daily drived windows since my first computer build on Windows 98. It was over the last few years that I got sick of windows. The amount of spying that's going on. The integration of cortana all added up to me looking into Linux. I started with Mint as a beginner option and am now daily driving it. I only have Windows installed because I can't get the latest Assassins Creed games to run on Linux.
Thank you very much for the kind words! I'm glad you enjoyed it! Thank you for subscribing as well. I hope my content does help you along your Linux journey. I'd also suggest checking out my podcasts This Week in Linux and Destination Linux on TuxDigital.com
@@michael_tunnell I certainly will. I've actually been looking for a Linux podcast. There's so much to learn with Linux but becoming less windows dependant makes it all worthwhile.
32:45 Can't say I agree with this. For the average user, there is nothing to be amazed about. They don't care if it's "amazing that it's working on another platform", they just want it to work. They aren't computer enthusiasts, they aren't Linux enthusiasts, the computer is just a tool to them, and they just simply want their tool to work.
Right, but when Call of Duty doesn't work on MacOS, nobody goes saying that MacOS is bad. It's just obvious that stuff made for one OS isn't going to work in another, it's not the OS's fault.
In contrast, you see people counting it as a mark against linux that when it defies all logic to make it happen anyway, it doesn't defy it hard enough.
@@Poldovico Again though, you are ignoring the fact that the average user doesn't care about that. Whether it's impressive or not only matters to enthusiasts, for the vast majority of users, all they see AND care about is if it works or not.... and how much of a hassle it is to get it to work. You will NEVER get people to want to switch to Linux if your argument is "Well, yeah, X and Y and Z does not work, and A and B and C need some fiddling before they will work..... but it's really impressive that they even work at all!"
@@Cyber_Akuma But then you wouldn't tell people not to switch to windows from mac because "pages doesn't work". It's true, but it's not how anything is expected to function. You switch to windows, you use Word.
@@Poldovico Pretty much, I would. If someone has some mac-only software they like to use, and the Windows equivalent is not good enough, then switching from MacOS is not a viable option. That being said, there is a Mac version of Office, and Windows equivalent of Pages in Word. I mean, Linux has that too with Open/Libre Office. That's a bit more generic software than a specific videogame though.... or many specific videogames. A lot of productivity software exists across all the platforms (Though if you are used to a specific one on MacOS/Windows/Linux that is not on the others than switching might not be a viable option)... but gaming on Linux leads a lot to be desired.
I have had issues with Linus Tech Tips vids, but, speaking as someone who has tried Linux plenty of times over the last 20 years and given it up each time as too much like hard work, I have some sympathy with Linus. It's very nice to see a measured response like this from a Linux expert that isn't whiney or foamy mouthed. Liked.
I also liked the fact you spotted the Tom's Hardware and Techradar webiste similarities. Future Publishing is (was?) a UK company that has been running for many years, used to do many print magazines on all sorts of hobbies before things went digital. They had at least two print publications that I can recall back in the day called (wait for it) PC Gamer (yes, it's the same one) and PC Format. Both magazines were so similar it was hilarious (the latter had a bit more of a PC generalist approach, as the names imply). It's still working for Future, 20 years later, across the internet. I don't use any of their websites for almost any advice at all, they are a bunch of shills. They were back in the print days, still are now.
YES!! Been looking forward to this video.
I hope you enjoyed it 😃
I think I had the weird multimonitor bug and it was the two screens overlapping in the settings. This is mainly just the live mode that has minimal drivers.
Currently have this issue on dual boot. Nothing shows unless I unplug one of the monitors. I have the monitors properly set in Mint..
I want to mention this in defence of Linus for saying installing discord is difficult. Flatpak, Snap and AUR are all disabled by default at least in manjaro and if you don't know that it will seem like something you need to go do through terminal provided you are both tech savvy and new to linux.
The fact that you need to change settings for a "software shop" is far from obvious for someone just jumping into linux. Or even knowing what flatpak or snap means.
I remember my first try ending up installing another software manager to install discord and ending up with a version that seemed to always need an update that I could not get. I know a little better now but I think it's my 4th time installing manjaro now.
I hadn't used Linux in a couple decades (Red Hat 5.2) and recently installed Mint on an old laptop a friend was retiring. Utterly shocked at how much easier everything is. It just works.
How nice for you... I recently installed Mint 18.3/20.2 (and several other distros) on an old XP laptop and neither my laptop speakers nor my router NAS is working properly. On Mint 18.2 the NAS access at least was ok, but the latest OS updates broke it and searching for a fix has been unproductive (I found a limited workaround by guesswork, but it's still broken). Like the sound, streaming media was already a problem, but maybe that laptop is just too weak, although it's over a good wireless connection, so you'd think streaming might work (it does in XP). Seems that in general, the idea of reviving old hardware via Linux has been way oversold, at least for a noob.
@@paintedjaguar Agreed that it's unlikely for me to learn much from a sample of one. But Red Hat in 1998 was like me trying to do vortex calculus while drunk. Linux Mint approached "plug and play."
@@qwkimball Well, I remember setting up various options in DOS to make the most of limited memory, etc. but while that was tedious, there was no real mystery about it. Everything was fairly predictable, and most things were well documented.
@@paintedjaguar Agreed. I remember the multi-volume MS-DOS 3.1 manual. Daunting, but the answer was always in there somewhere.
@paintedjaguar The old hardware thing is true but there is a limit to how far you can go back with modern era distros. An XP era machine means very very old so it might need something focused to support it. I'll be able to offer advice with more details about the hardware like what CPU it has and what model the device is.
But keep in mind, there is only so far back modern Linux will go regardless, there may be a case that you'd need to use a more era centric distro.
I know I'll get flamed for this, but I'll take a week of typing at the linux command line (in the shell of your choice) over a single day with Powershell. I understand that Linus didn't want to do either, and no question that Windows is the default platform for PC gamers, but *nix just feels right to me and has done for more years than I care to recall.
pip actually has an argument that's like "--break-system-packages". About as clear as you can be with a 3 word argument...
discord is really easy to install
linus and 99% of users: hold my beer
I dont get it? I installed discord EASILY on linux
Because why not? Welcome to reaction videos!
That monitor issue happened to me twice on two different distros so it's not as "rare" as you think
Do you have nvidia hardware?
@@michael_tunnell yeah I did in both cases so I'm guessing it's an Nvidia thing. It's easy to resolve but it was irritating. I've also had issues with touchscreens in a vm and Linux before and even once I fixed the install and setup my multi monitor I had issues with it constantly resetting my monitors 8n the wrong layout which I still haven't resolved I just put a easy to run script on desktop to reset it everytime it happens (which is often)
Fundamentally the issues Linux has for new users are exactly the things that Linux enthusiasts use Linux for. Average users don't want to "tweak" everything ( in fact the average user doesn't want to tweak anything, at least not at first ) they want to accomplish their tasks easily. A good OS gets out of the way, Linux is constantly demanding your attention and getting a system setup is still a multi day affair even for people ( like me ) who have been jumping in and out of Linux for over 15 years. And even after you get it working updates can destroy that.
Also the fact that there is not 1 Linux but many effectively makes choosing a distro impossible without doing tons of research.
Windows driver hell is extremely rare today but compared to solving even basic issues on Linux without digging through pages of terminal commands ( many out of date ) and text based config files does not feel very modern, cutting edge or superior to windows.
Also a lot of your response is "you can do x by doing y " but a new user will never know what y is a priori.
Where is part 2? This is actually good. I hate reaction video but this isn't that bad
thank you! :D my first reaction video being good is great to hear. :) The LTT Part 2 video hasn't published yet. I should probably rename this video since its a Part 1 for them not for me.
Linus is not the first to make fun of the name Pop!_OS. When I first came across it, I too was not a fan when I saw it written out in a suggestion from someone in the Linux community. That being said, it being my Linux distro of choice has changed my name about the name. I kind of love it now. It is unique. Similar to how Apple leans in to the notch because it makes their devices easily distinguishable from the rest, I have come to love the quirkiness of the name and the space theme of the distro.
I know a lot of folks want the name changed. Personally, I hope it stays. Anyways... everyone is entitled to their opinion.
My name is Thundreturtle and this is my favorite channel on the Citadel (youtube)
My name is Michael, and I approve this message. :D
22:19 dnf has protected packages. . . It wouldn't happen on Fedora
they are using docks so that explains the mouse and odd stuff
I think there was already a fix for the steam download when the video was recorded. The terminal cited 84 packages in need of an upgrade, not including the 88 to be removed. The issue was that the installer used a slightly older, known stable image.
It’s been a while so the details are a bit messy in my memory but I remember talking to a System76 rep and they said it was found and fixed without just a few hours. They also said that it was the case that Linus had downloaded the flawed ISO which is just very unlucky terrible timing. If he had updated the system before doing that it would have included the fix but of course that didn’t happen. The biggest issue is that Debian had known about the problem with “do as I say” for a decade because it was reported and discussed for years trying to get them to make it less straight forward to do what Linus did. The fact that Debian changed the system only after millions of people saw Linus hit it is completely unacceptable. It’s better than never addressing it but it’s a giant facepalm 🤦♂️ to have ignored that for a decade 🤷♂️
I will agree that it's the small minority of Linux users who are vocally toxic about things like gatekeeping, but at the same time it has to be considered that Linux is a very small user base comparatively, and it's already seen as unapproachable by most people. So any issue they find will be more likely to push them away since they were likely apprehensive from the start.
When a first time user goes to a forum to ask a question about how to do something and is met with a response about how they "don't even know the basics" or something to that effect, it becomes an experience that can quickly make someone decide that it's time to quit and go back to a place where, even if there are still elitists, at least they know how to use the OS.
yeah those articals made me avoid manjaro when i was starting on linux, because they implied that nvidia gpus wouldnt work
They do work on all distros! It's just a matter of how you get it working, and whether the Distro is of any help with it: NVIDIA Drivers are not open source but proprietary after all, and so outside the GNU licensing of Linux. They offer the FOSS alternative "Nouveau" drivers as well as the proprietary NVIDiA drivers which require they ask for permission to install. NVIDIA is finally becoming more Linux friendly though.
Manjaro is kind of bloated out of the box, so if you are familiar with Linux apps and have your favorites, you may spend some time uninstalling the bloat and replacing things with what you want. Manjaro also has many customizations of the KDE Plasma DE it uses, and gives users lots of settings to make certain tasks easier you won't get with pure Arch (what Manjaro is based on), but then they don't keep up on changes, and it introduces bugs: The "Manjaro team" bite off way more than they can chew, and it causes problems, and well, it's based on Arch, which although the most bleeding edge high tech Linux base distro, also the most Geek centric, and difficult to use for noobs, and why it's not recommended for noobs in the first place. Manjaro tries to make Arch Linux noob friendly but just adds problems of it's own.
Now EndeavourOS on the other hand will give you a more pure Arch installation, only gives you few apps, but a great installer, with NVIDIA install mode, online and offline installers and a choice of like 8 DE's, but not all customized besides a few wallpapers, but rather out of the box; customizing is up to you. It has always found and installed drivers for my more obscure and older hardware than any other distro, and also comes with a small maintenance app with a few great and important tools, which are more or less, just basic scripts less prone to failure. It's up to you to tweak things to your liking and install apps to your hearts content, but it helps if you have more understanding of Linux, and especially Arch, and the rolling release concept. Despite that, noobs still do well with it, because their community forum is so friendly and helpful, and there's hundreds of Manjaro refugees using EndeavourOS now because of it.
@@Bob-of-Zoid ik i was referring to when i was starting out
avoiding Manjaro as a beginner is a good idea because it is Arch based and the pain that will bring is something beginners shouldn't experience. So in a way that is good that you avoided Manjaro at first even though the reason for doing so was not accurate.
I have to wonder if his newly installed pop_os had a fresh apt update/upgrade on first boot, and before he tried to install steam. The package metadata on a live installation iso is probably well out-of-date relative to the repos, and the dependencies of steam are numerous (32 and 64-bit). The package manager did its best to resolve the dependencies by offering to remove xorg and the DE, which Linus accepted. Not really his fault. The stupid package managers should put more barriers to doing stuff like this (but NOT make it impossible for experts).
29:40 the problem is not not having proper notification. The problem is definitely something fundamentally wrong with Linux that installing steam can uninstall your OS in any way. These two things can even be linked together is the problem.
This is a vast misunderstanding of what happened. It was a bug, a very bad bug for sure but a temporary issue. This was fixed within a couple of hours of happening. You should not assume this is normal or anything to do with Linux in general. It was just an unfortunate bug that happened. Windows has plenty of similar bugs all the time including upgrades that delete people's data.
Something people have to learn about software. There have been, and there always will be bugs. There will always be a failure scenario where this kind of thing happens. The only thing you can do is educate the users of the dangers and to harden automated system. Blaming this package for this failure is like blaming human error for Chernobyl. While technically true, it overlooks the failure in procedures that lead to that point
Exactly.. Appliance approaches single purpose is key these days with $15 computers and cheap SD
I like this series
I would also have used AMD high end graphics card, however it was way easier to get rtx3080ti
Mostly use older hardware and Chromebooks, and Linux Mint trounces all others for compatibility, ease of use, and ease of getting retirees to use it instead of Windows. I've helped many in a local retirement community avoid buying new computers by installing Mint and teaching senior citizens the joys of life without Anti-Virus subscriptions. Mint just works and breathes new life into old machines with NO FUSS.
0:34 *_FORESHADOWING_*
24:08 *a lot
Hilarious thumbnail, Mike 😆
thank you 😆👍
full name is because Linux's ideological roots in UNIX.. a multiuser system. You use a FULL name for display in case there are two Alan's in the environment.. not a biggie, but it's a thing.
i know it is not your fault, but i WANTED to go to AMD but...COVID meant me waiting for a video card for over 15 months and getting the best deal i could actually find [still overpriced] because a 960 just wasn't cutting it any more....this is not a complaint, and i know it is NVidia's fault, but i've seen a LOT of Linux videos talking about "just get an AMD card". the other thing, i literally just installed Manjaro [i was heavily considering Pop!_OS, Zorin OS, Linux Mint, Elementary OS, Ubuntu/Ubuntu MATE, and Kubuntu, since i am a total newb at Linux] last Sunday [yep, 2 days ago] and am still a bit confused.....i'm very glad i looked into it for a few weeks beforehand, but i was not quite ready for the learning curve, given that my job is roughly 60-85 hours/week.... either way, love how you are one of the non-judgmental Linux guys, love the content!
Luckily I switched to AMD about 5 months before the mess. I totally get why the suggestion is not that helpful these days.
I do try to be helpful without judgement so I very much appreciate that comment. With that said, I would not recommend Manjaro to any new user because its based on arch and IMO nothing based on Arch can be beginner friendly. If you have issues that feel like the system is broken, don't give up on Linux is all im saying 😃
@@michael_tunnell I would disagree with that; the only distro that intsalled my Epson printer automatically from the printer manager "add printer" process was Arch, and I've tried lots, though I agree that Manjaro itself is not the best choice, I had less issues with SalientOS xfce...
@@fiddledotgoth Arch uses the same printer software as all of Linux: "Cups". Arch doesn't have a separate printer manager AFAIK, at least not one with a GUI, as Arch doesn't come with a GUI! So, most likely yours came with whatever Arch based distro you were using, most likely as part of it's DE's (Desktop AKA GUI) suite of apps, or the DE you installed on pure Arch.
@@michael_tunnell i actually chose it, in part, because a friend of mine uses Linux as his daily driver and mentioned several things he thought would be downsides for PopOS [and a few others]. and since the systems i would set up for my parents will focus mostly on "average daily user" i feel the utilities they would need should be stable and reliable with few updates.
i did express concern to him that Manjaro did seem a bit more of an intermediate-to- advanced user Linux...but he assured me, for what my parents need, it would be fine, as well as give me the chance to do a deeper dive as needed.
now that Steam is releasing it's Steam Deck i hope enough games become Linux capable that i can convert my dad's laptop to Linux and run his Steam account on it, sadly i have no idea how many non-Steam games he plays, but it is several. [yes, i know my dad, in his 80's, is not a typical gamer, but he plays a TON of military RTS].
and thanks very much for your "Arch can be dangerous to noobs!" warning. seriously, had my friend not been so proficient with the terminal offering to help, i would not have even approached Manjaro until probably next year. assuming i actually get enough time off work to play around with it for more than 30 minutes a night...which is actually higher than my average right now...
@@Bob-of-Zoid The printer manager looks the same as all the others but maybe because of the Arch hardware stack (that seems to be how people refer to it), all the functions of my Epson Ecotank printer work fine on the all the Arch spins I've tried; Manjaro, SalientOS, Bluestar, Arcos and Archman, so I assume it's a property of vanilla Arch...
24:30 to 24:55 now to be reasonable here...yes the LANGUAGE...the WORDING should instead say something like " warning you are about to remove your graphical user environment...Are YOU SURE you want to do this?..to cancel this... Type n and press enter.
That warning should be in full RED FONT that even a blond can see 😂 also they should make you type it 2 times one in RED and one in yellow so you know this is not normal.
I agree it should have been much clearer, it has been fixed though now by not allowing users to even do it at all without doing a task to prove skill level necessary to fix it
the nvidia driver thing ... Manajro give you it as a option in the grub menu of the live usb boot
That is an interesting way of doing. Thanks for the info
I say it was at least a third Linus's fault. He read 'remove' & 'essential'
On the pop shop yes but maybe he thought that it was different on console?
the thumbnail is legendary
Lol thanks 😎👍
He should have tried Ubuntu, it's the most stable, compatible distro I've used, dual monitors, 250 fps gaming, multi tasking. Never stops, never sleeps it just works. I love how people using unstable fad OS's will mock Ubuntu when it's a true Windows replacement but I guess these guys don't have a distro installed for more than 2 days anyway so what do they know about stability.
Thanks :)
Please add in description , the DLN "Community" you were referring to. Tanx
manjaro was the first to ship with the drivers, also fedora of all things has better drive support than pop
To any NEW Linux users, if at any time you see "Yes, do as I say.", do not, as in extended utterance, "DOOOOOOO... NOOOOOT... EVER DO THIS!". You are not experienced enough to recover without a re-install.
Linux Mint has HWE Kernels for newer drivers and hardware.
This is at a 6 months delay or more because they go at the speed of Ubuntu which is not fast enough for this scenario. Waiting 6 months for your hardware to be supported is not going to be something a beginner will understand. They will just assume Linux sucks and cant even boot. This is why it has to be said rather than just promoting Ubuntu or most things based on it without context IMO.
30:45 to 30:54 Chris Titus tech mention somewhere in this range of option Linux plowed through that Enabling aka checking... "Force pipeline" is what one should do if one had an Nvidia GPU in Linux. This allegedly helps prevent scream tearing. ..
I havent used NVIDIA in many years so I can't say for sure if that is true or not. I simply don't remember the best ways to do it is so I can't agree or disagree with confidence on this particular topic.
Even if Linus had read and understood perfectly that installing Steam would Nuke his GUI, He still is without steam, so, what is the correct answer here? what should he have done?
That is something I tried to address in the reaction. He would just have a different problem. He would just be stuck and either way it would force him off Pop!_OS but one way would suck and be annoying and the other is a seemingly catastrophic break that seems unrecoverable.
There was no solution he could have done other than wait for it to be fixed. Although he could have sent a tweet to system76 and got it fixed. He might think that is not something a normal user can do but s76 is very responsive to anyone.
Ultimately, this likely would make him distrohop but the reason being steam won't install vs catastrophic system break. There is a lesser evil at least 😃
@@michael_tunnell From what I understood at the time of recording, System76 had patched the bug, but the ISO that Linus downloaded hadn't been updated yet to reflect that.
If that's the case, would have a sudo apt update before trying to install steam via terminal have avoided the bug?
Also, great video. As someone who's dabbled in Linux since the mid 00s (when Ubuntu sent out CD/DVDs), but never fully committed to it, I'm currently doing my own type of challenge (currently dual-booting Mint and Windows 11 on my ThinkPad P50) and looking for Linux content, and you've just gained a subscriber.
People just become acclimated to their misery. Windows is not perfect. It can and does have driver issues that the user has to fix, it can and does have catastrophic failures. The difference is that it is shipped on most pcs so if you buy a pc, why change what’s on there to operate. Eventually you learn your way around and any errors and failures you just get used to fixing.
Moving from Windows to Linux, while in modern times isn’t really that much of a change, is like moving yo a new neighborhood. You have to find your way around again and at first the errors are annoying and time consuming to fix, but eventually you just get used to it and remember how to fix it.
Heck, to this day I still can’t get my onboard speakers to work. Bluetooth speakers work, headphones work, mic works, but for some reason it refuses to play sounds from my speakers even though they are connected, recognized, and the laptop “thinks” it can adjust the volume. I’m sure it’s a driver issue but I’ve yet to be able to resolve it. But, I’ve had problems with hardware in Windows too that just made me go out and buy new hardware.
Linux in many distros is easy to install and use, often easier than Windows itself, but there is no reason to switch. Even if Linux became the perfect OS, “normies” are still just going to use what the machine came with.
“You will own nothing and be happy”
Windows 3.1 released in 1990 the linux kernel 1991 what if IBM had picked linux on there
PC ?
In 1991, IBM didn’t have to choose between Windows and Linux because by that time the choice was already made: OS/2. This kind of answers what could be expected from such an adoption. Nothing.
I recently got a new laptop and tried both Fedora and Ubuntu on it. Neither of them detected the WiFi despite it being an Intel AX201 which is meant to have great Linux support. Tuned out the ID was different than the other AX201 in iwlwifi. I had to compile a new kernel with a modified iwlwifi drivers to get WIFi to work. I still haven't been able to get the finger print sensor working. Linux driver support still sucks balls. I realize 70% of the blame is on the OEMs for the lack of driver support and unfortunately, until this gets better most people aren't going to switch over.
Which laptop was it?
but....that would not happpen until more people are using Linux
it's a perpetual loop
34:00 no no pop fix it, that's what LTT is saying. Like you need to create an additional file to work around it
Using the command line is a workaround. They are just making it harder now which is good
@@michael_tunnell i'm not saying the terminal isn't a workaround (in this case) i'm saying that LTT comment is referring to pop making it impossible by default to let this time of user error even happen :P
Good video .. thanks
the thing is linux fixs fast
He said the name arch like he was scared people told me it was hard and when I try it I was like this feel better than Debian
The thing about Arch is that it is a distro that beginners shouldnt use at all because it is not made for them so the amount of people who promote it usually dont say that. Arch is great but it is only made for a particular type of user and most people arent that kind of user.
A lot of people I heard who writes those sometimes write them to troll I just use arch and built what ever you want onto it bc a lot of gaming made distros come so bloated
Well, this guy will have trouble going out to buy a car. There is no official list that tells you what model/make of car you should buy and if you compare specs you will get even more confused. Come to think of it, most things in the world works this way when you have more then one supplier. He's been locked in to a synthetic world of one Microsoft to rule them all for far to long.
Zorin 16 has an nvidia option when you go to install it.
Yep with the same checkbox as the other Ubuntu derivatives I think. It is a nice thing to see for nvidia users
14:56 yeah ssd's are fairly cheap nowdays so just buy one of those. you can buy good enough ssd for this for about 30€. thats not too bad. windows is way more expensive than that.
3:54 what is the best way to find the best distro? As a layman that's the first place I'm checking and maybe TH-cam videos.
he is talking about his nvme drive pci which is gen 3 and not 4
26:46 yeah its kinda cool that you can do it. but this is pop os. it is advertised as a noob distro. should you be able to do this on noob distro? i dont think so or atleast not this easily.
I feel that he thinks he knows way more than he actually does and refuses to approach his computing experience from a different way. He wants a windows replacement, but that's not what it is. Just like how macos is not a windows replacement, it's made for people with a completely different set of priorities
Windows users need to realize that if they didn't get Windows preinstalled Which they almost always do, and had to do it from scratch they too would have some issues with the install, and settings to configure after installation, as with a preinstalled OS the MFG does that for you, even when it's Linux.
someone sent me a clip from the WAN Show where Linus essentially acknowledges Windows is worse in some ways, he referred to Windows as "hot garbage".
So what would be a good distro for normal use and gaming? I normally run Ubuntu/PopOS/Linux Mint
20:44 for newer cards? Because i have a 280x aka 7970 and its horrible. If i have the system up for a few days (used to run win7 for literally months without problems) browsers and other gui will start to bug out and flicker, or the desktop entirely freezing. Fnding a proper driver is a nightmare or impossible if you're on a newer kernel than amd, whereas in windows, I just download the latest package and everything is well
Both of those cards are before the Lisa Su Era, the AMD works best on Linux with zero effort only started after she took over AMD. For example a 580 works perfectly without any extra effort. Unfortunately you are using a 9-11 year old hardware and AMD was terrible for Linux back then.
7:00 Selling point? I can leave some money if I want, but is not for sale like microsoft lol
I honestly think a lot of you guys are missing the point of this series.They are supposed to be going into it as an average gamer. Not a tech enthusiat or even a gamer that is a hardware/software enthusiast. Most average gamers will have NO IDEA what they're doing as far as linux goes and they WILL use google whether that's what you'd recommend or not because that's what they know. I don't think this was Linus's fault at all cause he made it very clear at the start of the video, he's never daily driven linux personally so he would have eabsolutely no clue as to what all those warnings even meant cause he has no frame of reference for them. He's trying to show some of the hurdlies an average computer user runs into when trying to get into linux and he's absolutely right. They're frustrating and in a lot of cases the linux community is pretty toxic towards new users when they try and ask for help. If we want linux to be more widely addopted, this kind of thing, (the toxicity mostly,) needs to stop. What I am curious about though is why neither of them went with SteamOS since this whole thing was prompted by the Steam Deck and that's what will be running on it.
Yep testing gaming on linux before the SteamDeck comes out and Windows 11 doing more to drive people away...
SteamOS 1.0 and 2.0 were Debian based and are horribly outdated (the last release for 2.0 was back in 2019).
SteamOS 3.0 is Arch based and I don't believe Valve has released a public beta yet.
linus just swapped out his drive.....says a lot of what he expects....he's proven correct.
looks really bad on us when even he cant get through easily
then he craps the bed knowing full well he should read the warning
the real question is what ar the general public saying.........and its not good
we have not corrected 20yr old problems
we have not changed or evolved with user expectations
we still love terminal so much the UI hasnt kept up with any semblance of logic
Linus swapping his drive makes perfect sense as he is just doing a one month test.
The problem with Steam was totally unfortunate, that bug existed less than a day. Those who want to see Linux as a bad option might get evidence for them, but in general I don't think that was such a horrible thing. Especially if they explain that it was a bug that lasted only 24h on a later episode.
What are those 20yo problems?
It's almost impossible to change user expectations when all the corporate entities are against desktop Linux and there's no corporations pushing Linux. But things are constantly getting better, slowly, but that was the only possibility after Linux kind of lost the desktop war in the late 90s and early 2000s.
I think Valve might be the one who manage to achieve certain improvements necessary for Linux to thrive. When the usage gets above certain level, then software support gets better and that starts positive vicious circle. Getting lots of gamers would be great because gamers are the "IT support backbone" for friends and family members, and they could get lots of people into Linux, their parents and other boomers who would enjoy Linux. They only need Browser, Office, media player and stability. Linux is perfect for them, if they just have someone who helps in the beginning.
Terminal is the best way to handle most things, that's objective truth. But that's not how the masses perceive things obviously. Desktop environments have been a disappointing thing. Gnome 2 used to be amazing, KDE 3 used to be amazing. Both lost their way. It's sad thing because great DEs would help a ton, but I still don't think people who would migrate to Linux would skip it because of DEs or that great DEs could sway a lot of people into Linux that otherwise wouldn't be interested. But DEs could get more eyes on Linux, and when Linus shows Linux in his videos, it would get people interested in finding out about Linux. It's not the determining factor but it might be the factor that gets them interested in finding out about Linux.
UI is really hard in general on open source. You kind of need hierarchy with some having control over the UI design. It's hard for open source for multiple reasons. But while it's still messy, it's also showing signs of improvement.
Ultimately the future of Linux and FOSS depends on us. If we do our best to help software get better, help people migrating, help to write manuals/translate them, be active on forums, and especially if enough developers join these projects. And especially not SJW leftist activists who try to make Linux and FOSS about politics which is shouldn't be. The only politics of FOSS should be freedom, and everyone who doesn't feel like this should be kicked off from the projects as they cause immense harm. But those who appreciate freedom should help the best way they can.
I backed up my windows machine when switching to Linux on my gaming machine.
More so i could pick throug and carry over bits and pieces.
It is realy good to have if you suddenly realize you need something and you already had it. Just plugg it in a usb interface and grab what is needed.
@@juzujuzu4555 terminal is not the best way to handle anything....its the best we have and its extremely poor.
we didnt buy the gb's of ram, graphics cards and all the other development to be sent back to 1989 dos text interface.
you may like it, you may be used to it...but it is not "best"...
its actually the worst when youre trying to sell and OS as current up to date, modern, competitive and capable of competing with the 3 major OS's where regular users NEVER see it.
we look ridiculous as were trapped using what amounts to a hand crank on the front of a current BMW to start the car....
you want a 20 year problem?
terminal....
usb....
bluetooth
audio interfaces
hardware manager
android integration
wireless casting, syncing & data transfer TO AND FROM phones
all of which are an absolute farce and embarrassment by comparison to ALL other os's
tell me how to fix any of these things without terminal and have it function without terminal and use it without terminal and tell me why its not baked into every distro with full ui control to a level that is functionally better than the other os's...not just transfer speed or any of the other diversions the community perpetually tries to obfuscate with.
the only people i know who've had no issues with linux are long term hardcore users and 90yr old grandmothers who browse the web and ask for help with email.
EVERYONE ELSE has been driven to RAGE and back to windows
@@kazzTrismus Terminal is the best way to handle things, and that's exactly why terminal hasn't evolved. On open source OS there would be constant evolution towards what's the best way to handle things.
If you bought GBs of ram, graphics cards etc. to handle things in windows registry etc. shitty interfaces, then you have phucked up. We have these to run software and games.
It's horrible for selling OS to people who want Android like experience. Essentially they do not want Linux, freedom to do anything and everything, they want TV like interface for their computers and let them have Windows and Android then. You cannot achieve freedom without having terminal.
Linux has lots of hardware and software issues that we now need to fix and setup through terminal, those should go away. That would make Linux much better.
My mother uses Linux, she doesn't use terminal. She is happier with Linux than she ever where with Windows, and I haven't had to help her on anything since the initial couple of week.
If we look ridiculous for the normies who understand nothing, so be it.
Terminal is not a problem, USB drivers are issue but that's because there's endless amounts of USB devices and the effing manufacturers do not provide drivers, though I personally have never had problems with any USB device. Bluetooth is quite bad, though bluetooth in itself is horrible and should be avoided at all cost. Still it works but it should be better. Audio interfaces work pretty well, pulseaudio isn't the best, but with small configuration you can have amazing sound. Pipewire is becoming more public and it's much better. Though sound hardware manufacturers should help with the drivers.
Hardware manager GUI would help, perhaps there already are those, I don't know. Also I only know there's some Android integration but I have no idea about these.
I don't know really what you are asking, every hardware on every laptop and desktop I have works perfectly out of the box. So if I build you a complex GUI that eradicates the need for keyboard but is complex as hell, would that be OK for fixing the potential issues? If you would need to play constantly on terminal to get things working, sure that would be too much, but getting the initial setup working with some terminal really isn't a bad thing when you realize that it's free as in freedom and free as in free beer.
People really seem to miss the difference between operating systems that are backed by trillion dollar companies and fully open source operating systems with open source ecosystems. There's some amazing things that are better with Linux and open source ecosystem, and some things that are worse. For those that do not appreciate the things that are better but appreciate things that are better with Windows, there's just no sense to even try to get them to migrate.
"obs works just great on linux as im doing right now" *smirk* - guy who has multiple pauses in screen recording through the video while webcam is just fine, and is reacting to things that are frozen for the viewer but not him signaling that obs is in fact not working just great.
What? I paused the video to react to it . .. that's how reaction videos work because otherwise I would be talking at the same time as them. . . your comment is confusing.
16:46 i think i had similar bug on windows. i think i needed to change some display settings to make it work as intended.
I agree that the language on the terminal could be stronger. We have a tendency to rely on corny computer jokes from the 80s. I do think that Linus make the key mistake of jumping into the terminal without enough experience. I love the terminal but it took me like 3 years to really take advantage of it. Sometimes I think we get too casual with such a powerful tool and borking the desktop can be the result
Not a fair critique about Ubuntu. Most mainstream distros(Fedora, Mint, Suse etc) are not built with gaming in mind so to say Ubuntu is easy to setup and then the article criticizes it for not easy to setup for gaming isn't a valid criticism, imo...of course this is a critique of the article writer. Not Linus.
Customization is why I like KDE so much. Besides why would any one NOT want to customize their OS? I mean you customize your bedroom, living room, car and office space right? Why not also your computer desktop? First thing I do when I do a windows install is change the standard font, font size, title border colors, and even the window border thickness. I even install software into custom menu sections...video and music playing apps and tools go in media, games go in games and Microsoft software go into a Microsoft menu on the start menu to keep the programs menu organized.
BTW Gen 4 means PCI-E 4.0 SSD. He put in a PCI-E 3.0 SSD.
As for the sudo command he ran the coders need to redesign that message to flash in large letters in a different font and/or color if the sudo command detects a potentially OS breaking command.
Michael Tunnell - TuxDigital: Hello Michael! Wow! You look terrific! You haven't aged a day. I think when that article is talking about customization it really means the ability to make it look like you want it to look, and to put things where you want them to be, NOT settings. Yes I agree! Both of those websites look almost identical. I heard (not too long ago) that Linux Mint was not going to include the third-party software like restricted-extras and others by default at install. I do believe they still have the check box in the installer though. Now that wasn't supposed to happen with Steam. 22:18 It was supposed to install Steam NOT take out the whole desktop environment and xorg. Of course he should of payed attention to what was on screen, and NOT selected Yes. This could of happened to anyone, but still they should read what is on the screen or asked someone well versed in Linux if it was ok to select Yes. This exact same thing happened to me many years ago when I was trying to install play on Linux. It wanted to take out the entire desktop environment too! The difference being that I noticed what it was going to do, and didn't continue the process. When I want Discord, I just go directly to their site and get the .deb package. I think Linus is amazing! He is very smart when it comes to Windows, and when it comes to building computers, and doing benchmarks, the internet, and big screen TVs, and gadgets, but he is a newbie when it comes to Linux. Hopefully that'll change. I love watching his latest escapades! It is nice to see you! I didn't know you were still making videos. I miss your Wolfman Jack imitations. Siva and I are still on the same Mumble channel.
oh shit, you too :( damb.
I am not a Linux user, never have used it... run win from win 95, and i feel stupid with Linux, have a degree in el. eng. but the thought of linux scares the shit out of me 🤣 31 yrs. old scare cat
yes please.
Windows users literally never use the Microsoft Store and then whine about how the app store on Linux doesn't work perfect lol.